← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 704 | The Dismal State of Evangelism, the Divide Between Church and Culture, and The Missed Opportunity of Unchurched People's Surprising Spiritual Openness with David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock
01:15:51
Only 1% of pastors say their churches are very effective at evangelism. Yet, 72% of people say they are open spiritually. In this episode, Barna CEO David Kinnaman and author Mark Matlock continue the 2025 Church Trends series and discuss the current...
Loading summary
Transcript164 lines
- [00:01]
Carrie Newhoff
The Art of Leadership Network.
- [00:03]
Mark Matlock
The reality is our Christian ecosystem has to stay alive somehow, right? And we've built a model that is very dependent and is fragile if we don't have these things and it may cause us to overstate things that aren't true.
- [00:22]
Carrie Newhoff
Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here and I hope our time together helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, today we talk about the dismal state of evangelism in the church. It is a struggle. There is a divide between church and culture, the missed opportunity of unchurched people's surprising spiritual openness. And somehow as church leaders, we're missing it. And I sit down with David Kinnaman. He is a CEO of Barna Group and also author Mark Matlock. And we talk about all of this and a whole lot more. I think you're really gonna appreciate this episode and hopefully we've raised some alarm bells in this Church Trends series that you've been listening to. This is the final part of a five part episode series on the five disruptive church trends that will rule 2025 to go along with the series. By the way, if you haven't picked it up yet, it's not too late. I've got a free leader guide which includes all five trends in detail. You can download it at 2025churchtrends.com Again, that's 2025churchtrends.com hey, for all of you who are new to this podcast, want to welcome you. So glad you're here. If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe. It's the easiest way to make sure you never miss an episode. And to all of you who have done that and for those of you sharing these episodes, leaving ratings and reviews, I just want to thank you so much. So David Kinnaman is the author of the best selling books Faith for Exiles, Good Faith, you Lost Me An Unchristian. He is CEO of the Barna Group, a leading research and communications company that works with churches, nonprofits and a whole lot more. And since 1995, David has directed interviews with more than 2 million individuals and overseen thousands of U.S. and global research studies. So when I have a question, I ask David. Mark Matlock is the Executive Director of Urbana for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. He is a Senior Fellow at Varna and a facilitator of innovation and impact. As the founder of WisdomWorks, he has been a consultant for many national and international faith based organizations, helping them to adapt to changing times by turning data and research into strategies and action. He has worked extensively with Barna. He is the author of a book that we talk a lot about in this episode, Faith for the How An Era of Spiritual Openness Shapes the Way We Live and Helps Others Follow Jesus. I think you're really going to enjoy today's conversation. And now a quick word from one of our partners. And now let's dive into today's episode. Well, David and Mark, welcome to the podcast. It's good to have you guys.
- [03:03]
David Kinnaman
So good to be here.
- [03:03]
Mark Matlock
Really good to be here.
- [03:05]
Carrie Newhoff
So we're going to talk about spiritual openness. Mark, you've got your latest book, Faith for the Curious, which has got some really interesting data, and I want to unpack that. But, you know, it's easy, particularly in the middle of the culture wars, to think we're in an era of doom and gloom, but the argument with a lot of the Barda data is that we're in an era of spiritual openness. Do you want to talk? Just set the climate. Like, how open are we? I guess is my opening question.
- [03:32]
Mark Matlock
How open are we? David, do you want to take that one?
- [03:34]
David Kinnaman
Yeah, I'll start. Well, you know, I think it's been interesting because I remember growing up as a pastor's son, and I always thought that the whole world was against us, at least here in America and especially in Phoenix, Arizona. And my dad, Gary Kinnaman, amazing leader. But growing up in a Christian home, you sort of feel like no one believes this stuff. But it turns out that most Americans have a Christian background. And what we're finding in the last two, three years is that there's. Even among those who don't have a Christian background, there's just a tremendous amount of openness. 72% of Americans are spiritually open. And you can find on barnard.com more about the definitions behind that. But just basically, they describe themselves as spiritual. They believe there's a possibility for a supernatural world, that the reality of the material world is not all that there could be. And I just think this is a headline. Even recognizing that with younger generations since the pandemic, we asked this interesting question. Describe yourself as more open to God since the pandemic began or not. And young people, Gen Z and millennials, more than half say they're more open to God than before the pandemic. Younger or, sorry, older generations, boomers and Gen X are less than half say that's true, only a third of boomers. So there's something happening across our society where maybe some of the pretenses have been stripped back. There's a real openness, whether it's even in entertainment, something like Stranger Things, people are open to the possibility there's something beyond our sort of five senses.
- [05:08]
Carrie Newhoff
Yet if you listen to the dialogue from a lot of church leaders, it feels like the culture's walked away. The culture is hostile. We're being persecuted. What's your take on that?
- [05:19]
Mark Matlock
Well, I think one of the problems that we have is that we are a culture that needs to fill seats and we need to raise money.
- [05:28]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay, we're going to go there. Let's go there. I'm good.
- [05:32]
Mark Matlock
The reality is, in order to do that, sometimes painting a really terrible picture is the best picture to paint, to motivate people to give. And that's at least that's the only thing I could find out. When I was doing a parenting workshop, I was trying to explain to parents of teenagers why this was actually a great time to be a teenager. Nobody agreed with me on it, and I just was going through the data and showing, like, all these positive trends with flourishing among teenagers, opportunity, all this, and parents would not believe it. It was just like, this was the worst time to be a teenager. So much worse than when they were a child. And I even had to change the seminar because it was so disruptive to them that they couldn't move forward.
- [06:18]
Carrie Newhoff
They couldn't even hear the rest of what you had to say.
- [06:20]
Mark Matlock
They couldn't hear the rest of what we were talking about. And I go, where is this coming from? So when I started looking about seven, eight years ago at some of the research we were doing at Barna, I'm going, there is this group of people. It started out to be about 80, 90 million, much larger than that, as we're finding out. But that didn't fit the category of what everybody else was saying was happening with people outside the church. And then my own children, who are creatives that were going into adulthood, I started interacting with their friends and going, this is not matching up with the narrative that we're telling ourselves within the church. There is something happening here that is really unique. And during the pandemic, I had a lot of time to spend with non Christians, and I got to go deep. And that's what kind of led me to kind of explore this idea of curiosity, because I saw that people were not necessarily interested in Christianity, but they were interested in spirituality and that they were open to the idea of Christianity.
- [07:19]
Carrie Newhoff
So I want to go pick up on that in a minute, but I want to go back to what you said. We got to Fill seats, and we got to raise money. What's underneath that?
- [07:28]
Mark Matlock
Well, I think. What's underneath that? Well, it's just the reality is our Christian ecosystem has to stay alive somehow. Right. And we've built a model that is very dependent and is fragile if we don't have these things, and it may cause us to overstate things that aren't true.
- [07:45]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, I think, David, it might have been an interview. You and I have worked together for so long. I seem to remember that it was an interview I did with you a number of years ago. We were interviewing someone very well known who interviewed somebody else very well known, and said, how do you raise all of this money? And his answer was, easy, have an enemy. Do you remember that conversation? I do, yeah. I'm not gonna name names at this point, but it was really interesting. And that guy raised hundreds of millions of dollars in his lifetime. But it's like, us against the world, Us against the world. Why do you think that is such an attractive narrative for so many leaders? Because if you just follow certain channels on social media, certain people on social media, you're convinced the sky is falling, we're being persecuted, and we have to fight them. Culture war.
- [08:33]
David Kinnaman
Well, first let me take on the idea that simple binary or black and white answers don't actually work as well. And being a social researcher, it's been really interesting to see the number of atheists who say they pray or the number of Christians who say they don't believe in God. That's not a majority, but that, like, you start to take stock of these things.
- [08:54]
Carrie Newhoff
So Christians who don't believe in God and atheists who pray.
- [08:56]
David Kinnaman
Correct.
- [08:57]
Carrie Newhoff
In other. In other words, it's a more complex picture.
- [08:59]
Mark Matlock
It's very complex.
- [09:00]
David Kinnaman
And so when you start even just really simple social research and you're saying, you know, do the people that we're interviewing have a coherent way of seeing a biblical worldview? I mean, and as soon as you add just a few questions, you know, Barna has been sometimes controversial because we'll talk about evangelicals or a biblical worldview or resilient disciples. And we've tried to. All right, hey, everyone is measuring born again Christians, or we're talking about evangelicals by a certain set of measures. And using social research, as soon as you add just another layer, all of a sudden that number drops really significantly. And again, this notion that social research actually shows us there's quite a bit more in common among Americans then divides us. But media, social media, the algorithms kind of amplify those differences. So being a social researcher is a great privilege because you get to see a lot of the cracks, a lot of the nuances, a lot of the things between the stories. But coming to the second point that I think, first of all, there is a scriptural model in talking about us versus the world. And Jesus does it. You know, there's strong language about, you know, sin and evil and, you know, the powers of darkness, and Paul does it. And I think the biggest thing is they're not raising money, right? So I think. So part of the thing is, like, how do we measure what it means to be faithful? And, you know, I think the question that we have now as a set of ministry leaders is how do we authentically raise money? Because that is part of what Christian leaders need to do. But how do we do that in ways that. And how do we tell us versus them stories? Because there are places where the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers and they can't see the light of God.
- [10:50]
Mark Matlock
But that's a great point. We do have an enemy, but that's not the enemy that we choose to raise money off of. What we've done is the God of this age has made us make enemies out of the people that we're supposed to be loving and reaching out to. And so we're putting them in the enemy spot rather than Satan himself. And in the process of doing it, the gospel's been hindered.
- [11:14]
David Kinnaman
And sometimes those outcomes. I think that's partly what I would say is in an era of databases and direct mail and fundraising appeals and all the good things that started with a good intent. Television, radio ministries that are radio or television ministries, like, it's great to build an audience. It's great to build a constituent. It's great to build a church. But then at what cost, right? I mean, Jesus himself says, you know, you might. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and that lose. Use their. Lose their soul? And I think that's the tension we'd love to talk about here is that notion of, like, how do we actually follow an authentic path to ministry where we can be all about asking people for resources and supporting the cause, you know, talking about the reality of living in a world where there is sin, there is brokenness, there is an adversary. The world itself can corrupt us. And I think, you know, we want to talk about those important issues. But, you know, when you start mixing the messaging with those outcomes, you know, is. Is the. Does. Does the outcomes justify the ends? Do the means Justify the ends, or I should say that the opposite way, do the ends justify the means? And so I think there's something about how important it is now in an era of radical transparency, where every single decision that we make as leaders is subject to a lot of criticism and a lot of openness. So how do we actually lead? Well, in that context?
- [12:44]
Carrie Newhoff
Mark, any other thoughts on filling the seats and raising the money?
- [12:49]
Mark Matlock
I remember I wrote a book as Generation Z was just being born, called Generation Hope. And I was looking at trends that were happening around the world, realizing this generation was going to become adults at a very unique time in the world that we're living in now. Which is interesting to go back and read that from 25 years ago. And I remember when I was sharing the book, a publisher said, you're going to have to self publish this. And he goes, nobody wants to buy Generation Hope. What they want to buy is this is the last Christian generation. And so, you know, and I. I remember sitting there going, thinking about compromise, right? And going, well, do I need to paint this better, this uglier picture rather than this hopeful one? And I was like, boy. But then I'm just falling into this narrative that doesn't help the generation live into the moment that God has for them. And so I think it's a very difficult thing to do, but we have to really evaluate. And I think we do it without. I don't think any. I don't think there's a lot of malicious intent behind it. You know, there may be some people that are really crafty that way, but I think most people really are believing that they're doing the right thing, and they don't realize that maybe they're actually impeding the gospel's work in the process of doing that.
- [14:07]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, I think there is research somewhere in here, and you can remind me that talks about the difference between people who have an open mind and a closed mind. People who need definitive answers or closure on a topic like, here it is, boom, boom, boom versus. Well, you know, that's interesting. And I think, you know, just so this doesn't get sound bited into something it's not. I think all of us here, you know, biblical orthodoxy, belief in the resurrection of Jesus, that Jesus is God. We're not coming at this from a. I don't really know what I believe anymore perspective. Okay. So just that said, talk about an open mind versus a closed mind and what the research is telling us about people in the church and outside the church.
- [14:52]
Mark Matlock
Yeah. So we used two scales One was a two factor scale to measure curiosity, which was basically we defined as being stretching, meaning that I'm doing things to explore the world around me, to seek out new experiences, interactions, engagement. So rather than every night I go to the same restaurant and order the same food, I look for new restaurants. That would be like one of those qualities of a stretching person. And then embracing this idea that I'm okay with there being uncertainty, I'm okay not having everything completely resolved. So I'm able to sit with this. We use those two things to measure curiosity in a person. The other scale that we use is what I think you're referring to, which is a need for closure scale.
- [15:36]
Carrie Newhoff
That's it. Need for closure.
- [15:38]
Mark Matlock
Yeah. And the need for closure scale basically measured how comfortable we are with things not being wrapped up and being open ended. It's more complex than that, but it's a lower tolerance for ambiguity. So let's take art, for example. A person who has a lower need for a need for closure, a lower tolerance for need for closure, they're going to have abstract art that is very interesting to them. Things that maybe need a little definition or I'm not really sure what they meant by that. I have to think about that a little bit to figure out where that goes. Where somebody who has a higher need for closure says, I want to know exactly what that artist is singing. I want to know what that painting is without any questions. Right. And so there's a difference in the way that it comes out. And it just so happens that practicing Christians have a higher need for closure than those that are non Christians. The general population of the US As a whole, and among the spiritually curious that we looked at in the book, almost 20 percentage separation points, higher need for closure. So there's a pretty big gap.
- [16:48]
Carrie Newhoff
What's your take on that? Open versus closed, David?
- [16:51]
David Kinnaman
Well, it's funny because Mark hasn't heard me say this before, because I just thought about it, but it reminds me of Buzz and Woody. So Woody in the Toy Story has an openness.
- [17:04]
Mark Matlock
He's stealing this.
- [17:06]
David Kinnaman
He has openness. He's lived in the world a little while. He realizes he's a toy. He's comfortable with some of the tensions about having to flop on the ground and not interact with the human world. And Buzz has a very low tolerance for ambiguity. He has a need for closure. Wears Zurg. He's got his space helmet on. You'll remember maybe that scene where Buzz, like, come on, man, he punches the button and it goes up and he thinks he's going to die. And I think a lot of Christians, it's actually one of the things that I im sometimes when I go up and speak in front of an audience is that they're all Buzz Lightyear or in a Buzz Lightyear costume or with their space suit on. And I'm like, where can I find that button? Is it a stat? Is it a story? Is it my own story of grief and loss? Is it an unexpected moment where they find something humorous? Because people are there to hear a Barna guy talk about the stats and then I'll crack a joke or whatever and it's just like, no, we're all humans here and let's hit that button. Slow down. And I think one of the great privileges of my life has been helping because I've spent so much time talking about the challenges of this next generation. Titling books called Unchristian and you lost me, where I'm trying to help parents and grandparents and others who are so concerned about the next generation actually hit the button and be like, hey, things are going to be okay. God has, has this generation exactly where he wants them. Or when I think about that space suit, I'm like, you know, I've got to find a way to get people beyond their bias about what they think is true. Like, for example, when people hear a stat that sounds right to them, they are preconditioned to believe that the methodology.
- [18:53]
Carrie Newhoff
Oh yeah, I found my evidence.
- [18:54]
David Kinnaman
The methodology. They never asked me a question about the methodology then. But then if it's the stat that doesn't make sense to them, they're like, yeah, well, you know, what was your sample size? You know, how'd you ask the questions? And so even that reveals our, our bias. So I don't know. I think Buzz and Woody are kind of an interesting example.
- [19:10]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way. That, that resonates.
- [19:12]
Mark Matlock
Yeah, I know, it's really true. And, and there's nothing wrong with having a high need for closure. I think that's really important to say.
- [19:17]
Carrie Newhoff
In fact, some of its personality type.
- [19:20]
Mark Matlock
It'S personality type, it's a trait. But it is important to go, well, gee, if our churches tend to have a little more people that have higher need for closure in them, could that create an environment that isn't open to curiosity, that isn't welcoming to curiosity, that might even be a turn off to curiosity?
- [19:37]
David Kinnaman
Well, and there's certain jobs, I mean, you want, you know, your ambulance technician, your EMT to have a high need for closure because they need to, you know, you know, get you out of the car wreck, or they need to find, you know, the pulse, or they, like, you know, there's certain. There are certain kinds of jobs. You know, the pilot, you want a high need for closure, you got to hit the buttons, you got to do things. So I think there's both occupations. I think there's personality types, I think there's situations in life where, you know, that's actually really good to have a high need for closure. I just think that the real question is this question of how do we lean into what the Lord, the Holy Spirit is asking us to do? And this actually tracks back to something we were talking about before about fundraising. Having an enemy is the high need for closure. Like, that's the thing. We're trying to solve it, and they're bad.
- [20:24]
Carrie Newhoff
We're good.
- [20:24]
David Kinnaman
Yeah. And the spacesuit comes down. Here's how we're going to solve. You know, we're going to solve all that toxic air out there. So the other thing to think about is, like, sometimes really good things which work. The problem isn't just that they work, but they. We keep going back to them. Because as a high need for closure, one year turns into two years turns into a decade, turns into a lifetime of fundraising, which God bless fundraisers. But when you keep doing the same thing, because that works, but it works without the Holy Spirit or God asking you to do it, that's where we start. Like, where is Zurg? How can we point our little red laser button at him? And I think that's part of what our invitation is. Whether social researcher or Mark, who's just an expert at asking really good questions among the non Christians. And I just seen him interact with my own kids and with others. He's a real master at inviting people into this warm conversation. And we're trying to help invite church leaders into the space that being a pastor, being a church leader is by nature, you know, an exercise of ambiguity and of helping people come to a kind of closure on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, which is the most important mission that any of us could be on.
- [21:39]
Carrie Newhoff
I think one of the things that I see that concerns me is I think we're in a moment where a lot of churches, church leaders, are circling the wagon. It's like we're in the culture wars. We gotta protect what we have. We gotta defend the faith. We gotta get louder. We have to get stronger. We have to become more powerful. Meanwhile, the numbers continue as far as engagement with the church to trend Downward. And yet there's an openness in the culture. So I guess the question would be a lot of people who are Christians and say there was a saying a lot of people had 25 years ago, God said it, I believe it. That settles it, right? Probably still my book. It's in your book. There you go.
- [22:24]
Mark Matlock
I had it on my wall as a kid.
- [22:26]
Carrie Newhoff
Did you really?
- [22:27]
Mark Matlock
Oh, yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah. My mom let me buy that at the Christian bookstore.
- [22:30]
Carrie Newhoff
God settles it. Yeah, God said it. Yeah, I believe it. That settles it.
- [22:34]
David Kinnaman
Wasn't there a follow up? Was like, God said it, that settles it.
- [22:37]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, probably. That's even better. Yeah.
- [22:40]
Mark Matlock
Well, the problem was, and I think what led me into this whole thing is I'd go to school with that kind of an attitude and realize that none of my non Christian friends had the same attitude.
- [22:49]
David Kinnaman
Well, they didn't have to understand the framework.
- [22:51]
Mark Matlock
There was no plausibility for that worldview in their world. And so all of a sudden I'm going, wait a minute, this isn't working. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not. That's not good enough for them.
- [23:01]
Carrie Newhoff
There's one stat I read this year that almost made my eyes pop out of my head. It was 1% of pastors. And this is tremendous humility on the part of pastors. 1% of pastors agree that our church is very effective at outreach. 1%, a single point. In other words, 99% couldn't check that box, which I'm like. That led to another trend. Evangelism is kind of on life support. We've been all about discipleship. I'm all for discipleship, but like, people.
- [23:31]
Mark Matlock
Always ask me, how do you know these pastors are telling the truth? Only 1%.
- [23:35]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, exactly.
- [23:36]
Mark Matlock
That's like, it's not socially favorable to, you know, not answer that question.
- [23:41]
Carrie Newhoff
Is anybody looking? Is anyone looking? I'm going to mark my ballot here. No, no, no, we're not very good. Which is like, pastors tend to be hopelessly optimistic. It's like asking, how often do you attend church? Pretty much every week. Well, let's look at the evidence. You were there twice last month, once the month before, you know, that kind of thing. So I mean, kudos to pastors for admitting it, but that's really concerning. And to be fair, I mean, we've been picking on people who are like picking on enemies and all that. Most of the pastors I know, vast majority, nobody got up today going, I hope we reach less people. I hope my neighbors don't that's what.
- [24:19]
Mark Matlock
I got into this.
- [24:20]
Carrie Newhoff
Exactly. I got into this. So there could be fewer of us next week than there were last week. There's nobody. Nobody's in that universe.
- [24:26]
David Kinnaman
Right.
- [24:28]
Mark Matlock
And we've all had the pain of that.
- [24:29]
Carrie Newhoff
Oh, yeah.
- [24:30]
Mark Matlock
Yeah. We've all had the pain of that.
- [24:32]
Carrie Newhoff
So here's the divide. Culture is open. We're becoming arguably more closed, or those who are left are more closed, probably because we feel insecure, threatened, watched a lot of people leave over the years. How do you bridge the gap? How do you begin to bridge that divide between. God said it, I believe it. That settles it. In a world going, so reincarnation crystals, like, yeah, man, that's kind of cool.
- [25:02]
Mark Matlock
Well, I think what we have to realize is a lot of our evangelism methods were built at a time when there was a different plausibility in our culture. And so the idea of evangelism was how do we efficiently communicate the message as quickly as possible with as many people as possible and make sure that we do it accurately? And the reality is, we are never really taught about the real dynamics of how a person maybe processes their faith and how they deal with that. And that's harder to teach. I even had somebody who's very much an evangelist who wouldn't endorse my book because he felt, people are going to think this is too much work. They're going to think there's too many nuances. I can't do this. And you need to make it easier, more straightforward, something they can do. And I'm like, I think this is more of what they can do, which is just living with people and doing life with people and recognizing what's going on. So I think we have to have a different framework. One is this idea that I don't have to close the deal with every person that I'm sharing my faith with, that the spiritual part of the journey that I intersect with their life may only be a moment. Kind of like Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. Right. It was a moment for that. And then Philip's gone. Right. And sometimes you have an encounter and you don't actually finish the deal, like the rich young ruler.
- [26:32]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, if I don't close the deal, I don't get someone in my pew next Sunday.
- [26:37]
Mark Matlock
Well, but also, there's a huge burden on the person that is learning evangelism that I have to close the deal and make sure that they've clearly said they do not want this. Right. And so we're working all of our spiritual conversations toward ends Rather than being okay with them following themselves out. So I have a list of things that I want to do when I get to heaven. One of the top five things I want to find out what happened to the retro on your roller?
- [27:04]
Carrie Newhoff
He's one of my favorites.
- [27:06]
Mark Matlock
It's such an interesting story, right? And he walks away. And Jesus doesn't chase him down and go, hey, you know, let's keep talking. We can get there. You know, he lets him walk away, right? And. And for a lot of us, we're never taught that in evangelism. We're taught keep, you know, just find that argument, find that thing that they're disagreeing with, and you can get there with them, you know, and Jesus has let them go. And I believe, I honestly believe, as I read that passage, that we are going to see the rich young ruler in the kingdom. I believe that he walked away, he processed, and at some point, he was able to do the thing that was being asked of him and what was required of him. I honestly believe that's good. Like I said, one of the top five things. Hey, Jesus, love you. Thank you. And then it's going to be, what happened to the rich young ruler?
- [27:54]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, where is he?
- [27:55]
Mark Matlock
I'm really curious about, is he here? Because I'm always looking at those things going, how do we do that? And I think we also have to look at what's going on in the Book of Acts, where we have the Jewish Christians that are trying to deal with what the Holy Spirit is up to, and the gentiles are coming to faith, and they've been worshiping an idol. They've been engaged in spiritual prostitution, all this crazy stuff. And now they're filled with the Holy Spirit and they are following Jesus and there's this clash. Well, they're not circumcised. They're not this. They're not that high, need foreclosure. And so, you know, the thing that I'm seeing with a lot of believers today, and I've been doing this long enough to see people come to faith and mature in faith, they've become versions of themselves that could not reach the unsaved version of themselves.
- [28:51]
David Kinnaman
Ooh, that's a good one.
- [28:53]
Carrie Newhoff
They become versions of themselves that could not save the unsaved version of themselves, right?
- [29:02]
Mark Matlock
They're so like, I am being. I've got great fidelity of the word. My doctrine is correct, my life is in order, and I know what I need to expect of the other people around me. And I could no longer appeal, nor could I Extend grace to my unsaved self. I'm just seeing it a lot. And it's just shocking to me that that's where our discipleship has taken us, is that it's taken us to a place of some crazy fidelity. And like you said at the beginning, we're not saying that we believe in scripture. We believe in the resurrection.
- [29:37]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're there.
- [29:38]
Mark Matlock
Like, we are orthodox in every way, shape and form. But there is a way of living that out that is restrictive. And everything about Jesus was, make it easy for people to come to me, and I will take care of them from that point on. And we haven't learned how to do that in this day and age. We want everybody to be sanctified, and then we will lead them to Jesus.
- [30:04]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, convert your behavior, then we'll convert you. And Jesus seemed to have a very high tolerance for ambiguity, even to the point where his disciples are like, what are you doing talking to a woman? What are you doing hanging out with this person? You don't need to waste your time with this person. Jesus is like, no, I'm ready. Not sure we are. David, one of the premises is this question, is the church safe for curious people. What's your take on that?
- [30:32]
David Kinnaman
Not especially. I mean, in a lot of ways, I want to give credit to pastors and to church communities. They're is a lot of good stuff that is happening every. Every week. And, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of church communities and small groups and discipleship and mentoring. Just lots of, like, the church is still alive and active. So as we're talking about this, there's a lot of good stuff that's happening at the same time. Not really. We need a whole new set of skills to be able to understand and interact with a curious generation. We need to be able to help people think about the world that they're living in. By the way, one of the things that has shifted that didn't exist during the era of kind of mass evangelism and radio and television and sort of big crusades, is that I think there's a greater awareness among our society today and then especially among young people about the idea of kind of going back in time and reinterpreting the things that have happened to us. And like, did I really mean that? So let me give you an example. We are hearing from more people who are deconstructing or who are going through their faith questions, and they go back in time and they say, I wonder what Christian school really did to me, you know, the Exvangelical movement. And so when we talk about conversion, we're not just converting people sort of in a place and time. We have to convert. And just like they raised their hand, we actually have to convert their heart, mind, body and soul. We have to help them understand the type of commitment they made. We hear other people say, you know, I made this commitment to Christ. But I think it was just the chord progression during the music and the lights were out and I'm just not sure what it was I was signing up for. So, like I'm on the board of a Christian institution and we talk about, it's a higher education institution and we talk about being the scaffolding around these living stones where we're trying to help as a body of Christ, like, chip away at what God's trying to do in someone's life. But we realize they need to be Christian not just in the now, in the now of their, you know, 18 to 23 year old life, but they're going to be a Christian at 20, at 33 and 43 and 53 and 63. And so this notion of like how we convert people is about their whole life and about, you know, their understanding and excavating their past trauma and understanding how that has affected them, understanding that, you know, people might actually come and say, you know, did you make this decision for Christina? Like a lot of the algorithms now and sort of in some of the deconstruction space is like, did God really say, did that evangelical community, did that Christian school teacher tell you it's a 6,000 year old Earth? You know, And I'm finding in our work with people who deconvert that they're going back in time and they're being asked to answer some questions that we didn't prepare them for, when the music was just right and all the rest. So that's why I think it requires a different way of thinking about the conversion process. There is a moment in time, I believe, when we, you know, come to a saving knowledge to use that language of what God has done for us on the cross and that we don't deserve it and that we are in deep need of a savior. But we have to like, work hard at all of those different layers of helping people, you know, be ready for when someone comes. Like, is that really, you know, like when Jesus talks about the parable of the seed on the path and the birds are coming up and picking up the sea and say, did that really, is that what you really meant? Did you really make a commitment to this is this really true. And so I think that's a part. And so this whole new set of skills is required of us to help this generation, you know, understand what it means to live into the totality of following Jesus in our lives today.
- [34:10]
Carrie Newhoff
So we got a lot of business leaders listening, a lot of church leaders listening. And the business leaders are mostly involved in the Christian faith, probably in the church you mentioned. It's not one and done one conversation. In the ride between the airport and my destination, the person gave his life to Christ. And I agree with that.
- [34:29]
David Kinnaman
But although that can happen and that's important.
- [34:32]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, that can happen for sure. And it does happen. But when you engage the spiritual. Curious. Let's start here. What are some of the adjustments you need to make? And let's start with the weekend service, because what do pastors think about the weekend service, the sermon? What changes do you think are helpful in terms of our weekend service? And I come out of 25 years of preaching to a church that was about 50 to 55% unchurched people, first time guests. So this is my bread and butter, this is what I do. And there were constant adjustments. Not in theology, not watering it down, but just in approach, just in trying to have a conversation that says, hey, you're intelligent, you're probably thinking this, but have you thought about this? Little shifts like that, rather than, here's why we're right, here's why you're wrong.
- [35:20]
David Kinnaman
Well, one shift is to have as many testimonies from laypeople as possible. And why we're seeing that in the research is that the idea of professional ministry leaders, which I am a firm believer in, both theologically and practically, that we should be paid for our ministry work. But if you get a paycheck from a ministry organization, a church leader, you're.
- [35:43]
Carrie Newhoff
Conflicted, you're not disqualified. But it's kind of like, well, of course you're going to say, I'm not.
- [35:48]
David Kinnaman
Saying that your conflicts aren't legitimate. I mean, you believe this. But the problem is that younger people, especially unchurched, they're like, well, this is why the criticism of money is so evergreen in our world, is that people see, they see the paid ministry staff and they again, pastors on average, don't make very much as a form of conversation. No one gets into it for the money, Right?
- [36:14]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah. And stewardship campaigns cost you money because you're also contributing 100%.
- [36:18]
David Kinnaman
But what if, to add to the work of professional ministry, we really embraced the idea of the priesthood of all believers and asked more frequently for laypeople to tell their story. And we interviewed them in short little snippets. We do this a lot in different places during the offering or whatever. But just integrate the testimony of lay people because for a watching world, they will be like, oh, well, this person doesn't have anything to like. Let Jesus story be overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of the testimony of the saints. Let saints who have been transformed by Jesus tell their story and then furthermore, integrate as much as you possibly can. Now, there's different traditions that listen in to a podcast like this, but as much as you feel appropriate within your tradition, and it might be more than you feel comfortable with, allow the Holy Spirit to work and prayer to work, allow God to speak into the hearts of people. Just we were at an event together, the three of us, and we just heard a testimony of someone who was. Remember Bianca was talking about this atheist who had come to her church and who had a healing in the service. And, you know, like, God is still alive and active. And so that is another way for us to say, you know, like, we're opening up a space here not just for the program that we humans have created or for us who are professionals, but we are the people of God alive to the work of Jesus in our lives. And we expect him to be a part of the times when we're together and we are waiting and anticipating him to show up in that way. And we're seeing evidence all throughout the research that those kinds of experiences with God, with answered prayer, with the reality that, oh, these aren't just paid professionals. They're telling a story of their experience. They're talking. I just was interviewing Lisa Fields for a project and she was saying, when we can talk as leaders out of our healed pain and how Jesus has helped us through our own trauma, people are just hungry for that kind of story. So those are some things that I think are ways in the preaching and in the weekend services that we can make God alive to a spiritually curious generation.
- [38:30]
Carrie Newhoff
Today's episode is brought to you by glu. You know, with summer winding down, it's officially back to church season, a crucial window to reconnect with your community and reignite momentum at your church. And Glue plus gives you everything you need to hit the ground running this fall. So here's what you can do. You can send texts and emails personally to invite people back and keep them engaged all through the autumn. You can create custom groups like parents, volunteers or new visitors and automate follow ups for prayer requests, first time guests or events, you can be more communicative than ever. So no one and nothing falls through the cracks. You can use AI powered insights to understand your community's needs and tailor your outreach accordingly. And you can welcome new families into your area with a new mover program. So thousands of churches are seeing real impact with glue. Plus, how do you get on board? Well, join them today@glu.com plus that's G L O O.com P L U S. That's a hard one for pastors to hear because I think most pastors are not in it for the money, they're not in it for the prestige. But you don't realize it's kind of like me saying, you should listen to the Carrie Newhoff leadership podcast or you saying, David, hey, Barna research is pretty good, right? People are going to be like, well, of course you're going to say that. Look at my book. It's amazing. Of course we're going to say that. And that's not why we got into ministry. It is because we really are in love with Jesus and we really believe he is the hope of the world. But what was the stat? It's a barna stat, like 46% of a congregation. The congregation at some level mistrusts their pastor, doesn't see their pastor as an authority. Can you nuance that a little bit? It was a little disheartening.
- [40:10]
David Kinnaman
I don't remember the stat offhand, but I do think that the problem is one of distraction and one of indifference and one of credibility into the issues of life that a person from Monday through Saturday has to wrestle through. So again, and I think the work of churches, the strength of the church in North America is stronger than any other developed nation in the world. And it is truly a miracle to see the strength of the church in the US and it is in decline. It is facing a lot of pressure.
- [40:46]
Mark Matlock
If I could jump in, I think what we have to understand is that church, church right now is very much serving the congregants and there's nothing wrong with that. And sometimes when we give something a dual purpose, those two things are in tension. And so I honestly believe that in order to reach this next generation, it may be that we have to provide halfway houses to the church somewhere that they're able to experience Jesus or experience the questions are having. I'm a really fan of the Alpha program.
- [41:21]
Carrie Newhoff
I was going to say is Alpha halfway house.
- [41:23]
Mark Matlock
Alpha is a halfway house. And in fact, a lot of what inspired faith for Curious was watching a church implement Alpha for the first time and watching these congregants trying to lead these conversations, and they want to turn into a Bible study.
- [41:38]
Carrie Newhoff
Alpha doesn't let you do that and.
- [41:40]
Mark Matlock
You can't do that. Right. And so that's not the point. That's not the journey that we're bringing these people on. And so. So I think finding other places outside of the service can be really helpful to helping onboard people that are curious about the faith.
- [41:58]
Carrie Newhoff
So, you know, we've had Nikki Gumbalon and others from Alpha, but what does Alpha do so well that all of us should be taking notes from?
- [42:07]
David Kinnaman
Well, some of their principles. And we've actually done some research with Alpha looking at unchurched people and their expectations. But it is listening without judgment one of the top needs of the unchurched. One of the ways I think Alpha orients towards hosting people, they don't force a conclusion. Some of the things we've been to, sort of a tolerance for ambiguity in the right ways, in the right application. Of course, they also do this sort of like it's around the table. There's a hospitality orientation.
- [42:37]
Carrie Newhoff
A lot of people say food is.
- [42:38]
David Kinnaman
A big, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah. So I think those are some of the things. But the research really underscores that when. When. Because there's a lot of good evidence in the work we've done for more than a decade and even stretching for. For many decades with. With George Barnard did a book called Evangelism that works. And this notion that people are really hungry for. For something that is real. And when you can help introduce them to the realest thing, the truest story about ourselves, which is that our hope is found in Jesus. They can't help but. But be open to that, but we just have to be, you know, willing participants in that process with them.
- [43:12]
Mark Matlock
Yeah, I jump in. I'd say two things. One is it's really hard when we read the scripture to understand how fully accepted, loved and seen people who encountered Jesus were. Like when they saw. When Jesus when they met him. Right. The woman at the well, something is incredibly safe and remarkable in that moment that allows for that interaction to happen. It's hard to pick that up through the biblical text. So a lot of times we get into this whole, hey, we got to tell them the truth, even if it hurts. The truth hurts. The only way to love people is by telling them the honest truth. And what we don't realize is that there's an actual effective part of really caring about a person in Fact, one of the hardest things about writing faith for the curious was making sure that it was about really caring about the people. And not just, this is a trick, this is a tactic. This is a technique you can use. This is a strategy you can use on Sunday that's going to get more people in your door, because those things don't embody the relational component that's required to reach the spiritual curious. And so I think Alpha creates a context whereby people over time realize, you really do care about me. You have heard me say some things that are hurtful to you, and yet you have endured on this journey with me. And somehow this allows them to see Jesus in a really powerful way. And I think the problem is a lot of times we're presenting Jesus as an idea. We're not presenting Jesus as a genuine relationship that we have. And so David's point about having people share their testimonies, have them share their experiences. You know, Youth for Christ has a really wonderful model. It's actually become their logo. It's three story evangelism. I was involved in launching that at DCLA years and years and years ago. And the idea starts with, what is your story? So always assuming that somebody has a spiritual backstory or a journey that they're on. The second thing is, can I share with you my story? And then connecting their story to God's story. And it's a real simple model, but I think that is the way that we actually introduce people to Jesus rather than saying, hey, here's the way the mechanics of the universe works, and Jesus offers a way out of that. I don't know that that works in today's curious culture.
- [45:42]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, and you hinted at it before, but I think evangelism or apologetics, the way a lot of us were raised on it or heard about it and it's still shared widely, is sort of based on the Enlightenment rationalism and an assumed framework that you've had, something you once endorsed, you once believed that you walked away from. Now I'm going to convince you why you need to go back. And that may have worked really well for a century or so. And that culture doesn't exist anymore. It's kind of went away. People are not, we're now probably not post Christian, but in some generations, pre Christian, no idea about Jesus, depending on where you live. And they're not walking away from anything. And it's not a rationalistic framework anymore. Right. As much as we kind of some of us wish it was, it's not.
- [46:32]
Mark Matlock
And according to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Most people aren't sitting around feeling a lack of self actualization.
- [46:40]
Carrie Newhoff
Right, right, right.
- [46:41]
Mark Matlock
Especially in North American context, people are feeling pretty fulfilled. And so one of the approaches that we have to look at in reaching the spiritually curious is that they are seeking. 74% of Americans tell us they want to grow spiritually. Okay, why? What are they looking for? It's actually not because they're lost in the universe and they're overwhelmed and they don't know what their purpose is. Most of it is there's something that they're doing that's really deeply satisfying and they're trying to get more of that. And they're thinking that maybe spiritual growth, however that comes to them, is the way or the path toward wholeness. And so what I think that little thing is is the image of God inside of them is broken because of sin. But it's there, a little remnant of it, and it's trying to get out. It's trying to grow bigger. And they're trying to. I want to experience more justice in the world. I want to be more compassionate. I want more intimacy. I want to be more creative. Whatever that thing is of the image of God in them that they're trying to see more of. And spirituality is a path to that, but it will never fully accomplish what they're really hoping for without Jesus. But if we start there, we have a common ground. Because if you're passionate about something that's a justice issue, I'm passionate about that. If you're a creative, I'm creative. If you're wanting more intimacy in your life, I want more intimacy in my life. And I found this path through my relationship with Jesus. By trusting him, I experience these things more fully. And so part of what I think needs to happen in our churches too is we need to make sure that people are really experiencing Jesus. Because David and I did at Faith for Exiles, we found that frequency of attendance did not necessarily equate to intimacy with Jesus. And so if I really have an intimate relationship with Jesus, people see it. I mean, one of the really interesting things happening to my wife and I right now is our kids, friends that are getting married are coming up to us asking us if we can either do their premarital counseling or if I can officiate their wedding. Many of them are not Christians. And exploring that, they're like, we see something in your marriage that we want in our own marriage.
- [49:01]
Carrie Newhoff
My wife and I are hearing that so much right now.
- [49:04]
Mark Matlock
Yeah.
- [49:04]
Carrie Newhoff
And our new generation of friends are all our kids, agents.
- [49:09]
Mark Matlock
Yeah. And so they're looking for the upgrade, right?
- [49:10]
Carrie Newhoff
They are, they're like, what is it?
- [49:12]
Mark Matlock
Something inside. You guys are gold. Marriage wants this intimacy.
- [49:15]
Carrie Newhoff
We got a story.
- [49:17]
Mark Matlock
Who do we see that's. So we have to be examples of fruitfulness, you know, and if we are examples of fruitfulness, the spiritually curious are going to go, how are you getting that? And then we can say we aren't doing anything. It's Jesus. Well, and just trusting in him.
- [49:32]
Carrie Newhoff
Let's play this. You spent a lot of time here. We're recording this in Boulder, Colorado. I'm on a plane tomorrow to New York City for the weekend. These are very spiritual cities. I mean you can walk five blocks in any direction here you're going to see tarot card readings, psychics, crystals, a lot of Buddhist. A lot of Buddhist, yeah. I passed a couple of meditation places yesterday.
- [49:55]
Mark Matlock
You're also going to see a lot of deity free spirituality, meditation studios, things of that nature as well.
- [50:02]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, I'm sure on New York, if it wasn't winter, I would be out there and there'd be people exercising in the park, you know, on Sunday morning, that kind of thing. Runners, clubs, et cetera. I mean, where do you see spirituality in the culture, David? Because it would be easy to come here and pull out our placards and go, this is Satanist, you know, which arguably it could be. I mean, I don't know.
- [50:25]
Mark Matlock
But you know, it's Mars Hill.
- [50:26]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah, it's Mars Hill.
- [50:28]
Mark Matlock
You know, my kids have friends that are tarot card readers. I've taken time to learn a little bit. I'm not comfortable with that about what's going on. I'll just go like, so what are you looking for when you go to your tarot cards? What is it you're seeking? What are you hoping to find? And I'm genuinely curious about that. And they'll talk to me a little bit about what they're looking for or what they're leaning into. And this opens up a conversation around certainty, spiritual exploration, trust and, and to be able to say admire them and say, wow, you're a really spiritual person. Right. Because that's what Paul said on Mars Hill. I see you are a very religious people. You've got idols to everything, even this unknown God. Let me tell you something about this unknown God that you worship. Right. And so it's really interesting when we connect with people and we go, what do you get out of running? What do you get out of going to meditation? The meditation studio every week for 45 minutes a day. You know, you're paying 250 a session for what? What is that doing for you?
- [51:31]
Carrie Newhoff
What do you get out of hiking? Fourteeners and.
- [51:33]
Mark Matlock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [51:35]
Carrie Newhoff
David, any answers to that?
- [51:37]
Mark Matlock
But I think that's kind of where you. But that's where we find common ground.
- [51:40]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [51:41]
Mark Matlock
And that gives us a basis to have a spiritual conversation with somebody and introduce them to Jesus.
- [51:45]
David Kinnaman
Well, first, I was thinking when you said about Paul and his, his speech in Athens, you know, like, we do talks and listeners are, you know, in boardrooms or in business settings or preachers, and you're like, man, you crushed it. It's like, I wonder what the people after Paul gave that speech to the unknown God. They're like, oh, Paul, you just crushed that one.
- [52:05]
Carrie Newhoff
They're going to be Talking about this 2,000 years from now, man.
- [52:07]
Mark Matlock
That one goes in the book.
- [52:08]
Carrie Newhoff
Seriously, that one goes in the book.
- [52:12]
David Kinnaman
So that just that little, that little image hit me. So, I mean, we see this in the research that people experience God in nature. That is a big one for sure. And that is for me, for sure. I mean, I do a lot of hiking you were referencing. I do a lot of the 14,000 foot peaks, especially in the summer here in Colorado. And you know, that elevation, the perspective, the kind of exertion that's required, the planning, you know, it's like it's my own kind of spiritual retreat. And I do a lot of praying and prep for it. And I think that elevation, one of my key words for this year has been elevation of just like perspective going a little higher. And I think people are hungry for that. And so, you know, we live in a very spiritually drenched time. Even entertainment, popular television and shows, it doesn't show up in the way that we Christians sometimes want it to because we're not, you know, in those places. But we get the chance at Varna to do a fair amount of work with people in the entertainment industry. We'd like to do even more in the coming years where we can try to help talk about the market research about who are these Christians, who are these non Christians, how might they want to be spoken to? What are the kinds of stories that they want to hear? So I think those are a couple different places that I see it. And I also follow a brand called School of Life, which comes out of the uk and it's another place where I see spirituality, the kinds of questions that are happening on social media. This particular company called School of Life, it was started by the Guy by the name of Alain de Baton, who is Swiss, lives in the uk, a secular guy who basically said, listen, religion, philosophy, psychology, all these sort of humanities, art, they have something to teach us. We all can imagine there's no God, all this sort of, he's a naturalist. But we can actually learn some things about relationships and thriving and despair and who we're meant to be. It's like literally a curriculum for living in the modern age, but from a secular perspective. And I think that's a good. It's a really interesting brand to follow. They actually don't have any authored books. It's all sort of white labeled, meaning that you're not following a person, you're following the brand, which is actually a really interesting thing. So it's a good example of why people are going to CrossFit or they're going to personal coaches or they're going to tarot card readers or psychics, or why in the workplace they're trying to find meaning. Because as the church broadly and institutional religion has declined in importance, people are placing more importance on these other places like the workplace, like, you know, reading a book on dating and relationships. But it's from a secular perspective, you know, the following social media influencers to say, you know, how do I find a more meaningful life? Those are the expressions of spirituality in our time. And so the church can intersect those and say, you know, this is, you know, I can see you've got all these idols. I can see you're doing all these things that are good and meaningful, but what if there is an unknown way, a secret, mysterious way from the past called Christianity following Jesus that might actually reinterpret all of these things that you're doing towards a more whole life discipleship, towards a more whole way to live your life. And I think this generation is hungry.
- [55:32]
Carrie Newhoff
For that, I think. And I want to touch on mental health, because the stats there just blew me away somehow. I think these two conversations are related.
- [55:40]
David Kinnaman
Mental health and it is an expression of spirituality.
- [55:43]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah. So we talked about. I have what I would consider a historically orthodox understanding of Christianity and who Jesus is. And I know you too well enough to know that you would say the same thing. And there's almost a false dichotomy in the church where people would say, well, if I get a little more open, but let's say there's still some people who would say I have a high need for closure, who are listening, those who haven't turned off by now, and they're like, if I'm afraid if I become more open, I'm going to end up deconstructing or I won't be faithful, or that somehow it's my mother's going to be rolling in her grave or whatever that happens to be. How do you hold intention? A firm belief about what you know and believe to be true and an openness to seeing where the world is, exploring and trying to meet them there.
- [56:42]
David Kinnaman
Well, Paul says he knows this one thing, Christ and Christ crucified, that he strives for that right. Or Psalm 27, that this one thing I seek is to experience your beauty, the beauty of the Lord and his temple. I think we need to immerse ourselves in Scripture first of all, because they, I think, are invitations into this dynamic life with our Creator. And my story, my experience at every phase of my life and in different ways. But, you know, whether it's through bereavement and cancer, whether it's through vocational journeys, I'm a very ambitious person. And I found my heart's answer in the book of Ecclesiastes. You know, I've found, you know, like in Second Corinthians, you know, God of all comfort comes to comfort those, you know, who are. Who are despair, despairing, you know, Second Corinthians, one talks. Paul says, you know, we despaired of life. We thought we would die. So I think I just would give testimony to the personal sort of story about the role of the Scriptures, the. The alive and active word of God that has come into my life and, you know, saved me for myself. And it's, you know, the personal work of Jesus and the Scriptures have. Have helped me do that, have helped me to sort of put my heart back together. And then the community of God around me has helped me to do that in various times in my life, you know, whether a new parent or. I remember actually coming after the first three or four months when Unchristian launched, and that was quite a rocket ship as Gabe Lyons and I had launched that book. And, you know, we started, you know, we just were asked to come speak on that in a lot of places. A real privilege. But I remember coming back to my home church at a prayer night and just. Just weeping out of almost fatigue and exhaustion. And I was inadequate to the task of trying to help the church grapple with the message of that book and that church and Pastor Larry Reichardt and that night, and just the tears themselves, the physical expression of. Of feeling exhausted and almost like overwhelmed by, you know, what God had asked us to do with that book. It was like. The Lord was like, hey, I see you. Let's cry this one out. This was a hard journey. Yeah, you got asked to go speak in some cool places, but it's all right. God joined me in that. And so I think those are really important things for us to mark in our life, that God shows up and meets us in these places of deep need. And you know what, What a cool, cool experience that we get to have to walk with them in these days.
- [59:19]
Mark Matlock
For me, you know, we have to have confidence. One, the Holy Spirit is already at work. And. And so, you know, when I'm talking to a person, especially somebody who's outside of the church, I'm going, where is God already at work in their life? So I'm trying to find those places because I believe that he already is. Right. And. And it just. Just so happens I have to be sitting next to them on an airplane today. Just so happens that they're a waitress. It just so happens that. So I'm a part of this thing that God is doing in their life because he cares way more about them than I do. So I'm always looking for that. And then the word of God believing that it is really powerful. So that in itself is an open thing that has nothing to do with belief. Right. But it's a journey into the wonder. St. Augustine talked about the curiositas as being like this dark thing that curiosity, curiosity killed a cat. All this stuff. We have all these narratives of curiosity actually being a negative thing. And the reality is that it can be when it's rooted in our flesh. It can be a wonderful thing when it's rooted in our desire to experience more and more of God. And Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, he said, you know, you guys, I brag about how much you love each other. Now I just want to encourage you do it more and more. You know, there is so much limitlessness to this. And I know for my wife and I, you know, we think, oh, my gosh, we were married for 32 years. The intimacy that we know now is not. We thought we were in love. Oh, yeah, right. But now what we know is so much deeper. What could it be like in 10 more years? You know? And so it's that idea that my love for Jesus, what it is now, is nothing compared to what it probably can be. So that openness to explore and to be curious is not one of vice. It's one of intimacy with God and experience of God. And like, I think some of the Jewish Christians in the early church, there was a sense of we've got this all figured out and buttoned down and nope, Gentiles are bringing in this whole other way of understanding, experiencing the Lord. Right. And so. And we may be at that moment with Gen Z.
- [61:34]
David Kinnaman
Well, openness and certainty are also not mutually exclusive ideas. Right. So I think that's the other thing too.
- [61:41]
Carrie Newhoff
Say more about that.
- [61:43]
David Kinnaman
Well, I think, I'm not a philosopher, but it's probably comes from more of an enlightenment way of thinking where even as a survey researcher, we're trying to construct binaries or thoughts about is it this or is it this? Like, we have a survey question, you know, are you more interested in openness or uncertainty? And people say they're more interested in openness. 70%, 69% of Americans say they're more interested in a faith that is open than a faith that is certain. Well, even in the construction of the question created kind of a false dichotomy.
- [62:11]
Carrie Newhoff
I might have answered that one. Certainty. Yeah, I want to know that Jesus rose from the dead, sure.
- [62:16]
David Kinnaman
But even the way we ask our questions, even the way we think about these concepts are reflecting a kind of zero sum game, as though the more certainty, the more openness you have or the more curiosity, it must mean that you're lagging in your certainty. What Mark is describing is that he can, you know, he can have this sort of like his marriage can be, you know, he's working towards this, this vision of a, of a, of a marriage over many, many years. And that's actually what I was going to say, you know, as you guys were talking about, you know, your marriages and, you know, we were sort of making eye contact about the notion that, like, you know, we've been friends for a long time, you guys have great marriages, you guys, we've talked about some challenges that, that you have been. I've been bereaved now. And so, like, now I'm single. And you guys know some of the challenges I've had in that. And here's the thing that is, I think, so important for us about this curious moment and in fact, the testimony, what we can say about our faith is that God hasn't just walked through the great times with us, but he in fact has helped heal us and put us back together through thick and thin, through the worst that life can throw at us and the best that life can throw at us. And I think that's actually the kind of thing that, that people are really hungry for is like, how has God, you know, shown up in your Life in ways, especially when things are really tough, because we have a God who walks through suffering with us. We have a God who cares about our trauma. We have a high priest who, you know, was, was, was, you know, beaten and flogged and understands the challenges that we face. I think that's really part of the witness of this, of this moment. It's like people are actually, when it comes to mental health, like they want to. Is there a better way? Inner peace is a new apologetic. Because this generation is so hungry to find a place of peace.
- [64:05]
Carrie Newhoff
Inner peace is a new apologetic.
- [64:07]
Mark Matlock
Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
- [64:09]
Carrie Newhoff
You know what I'm going to do? Because it's been such a helpful conversation, I was going to spend 20 minutes on openness and then get into other subjects. It's been so good. I'm going to put a pin in mental health. I want to do a full episode, 2, 3, 4, down the road on it. But let's conclude on that thought. Let's talk about the new apologetic. Say a little bit more about that, David, or.
- [64:33]
Mark Matlock
Yeah, I'd like to say something on certainty. Certainty is not a relationship word. And I think that the church is having a problem right now theologically, between a relationship with Jesus Christ and a belief in Christianity. And so certainty is something that happens. Like, I have confidence in my wife. I don't have certainty in my wife. You know what I mean?
- [65:02]
Carrie Newhoff
I have actually. I have confidence. You're right. I have no idea. I think she texted me. I saw it when I was looking at my questions. Think she's at dinner with someone?
- [65:09]
Mark Matlock
Yeah.
- [65:10]
Carrie Newhoff
No certainty around that. But I have confidence that everything's going to be okay.
- [65:14]
Mark Matlock
Yes, yes. And I think we have to start really looking at our words and our language, like grace. Grace is actually not a theological word. It is a relationship word. And we don't think about our relationship with Christ enough relationally. And to me, the essence of discipleship, what Jesus was trying to teach his disciples, was to trust him. And in so many discipleship programs that David and I have surveyed as we were writing, Faith for Exiles and everything, so much of it was about teaching beliefs and making sure doctrine was in place, but none of it was around trust. So you have people. And what we're seeing in some of this deconstruction is they're going through and they're breaking down beliefs. But as soon as I start trying to bring a relationship with Jesus into the conversation, that's not even a part of it, because I can't deconstruct my wife. She's there, you know what I mean? And I can't say I don't believe in her anymore because she's there. And with Jesus, there's nothing to deconstruct if he's there, there, and I'm trusting him. And I'm seeing the fruitfulness of that. And inner peace comes from that confidence that we have in trusting and leaning with our full weight into Jesus in those different moments of our life. And the times that I fail is when I lean out of my relationship with Jesus and my trust, my confidence isn't there. It's on my own two feet, and I start shaking and wobbling and I stumble and I fall. And so I think we have to think about that, because that's, for me, what openness is. It's like this opportunity to explore the extent of that confidence and the wonder of that certainty is a closed system. And every day I have to have confidence in my wife. We have to have a renewed trust in our relationship. And the same thing's true in my relationship with Jesus as well.
- [67:12]
David Kinnaman
So Mark covered a lot.
- [67:15]
Carrie Newhoff
If there was one thing that you would say, because pastors are like, all right, all right, I'm going to really think about this. I'm going to reframe. I'm open. I want to know more. But most of us are probably looking for, okay, where do I start? What is one thing I could do that would at least move me a step closer to engaging with a culture that apparently is spiritually open and. And probably spiritually hungry? What's one thing they could do?
- [67:43]
Mark Matlock
I think the first thing is just being curious about other people without having an agenda to lead them to faith. I have found that most of the time, spiritually curious people end up asking me to tell them how they can put their trust in Jesus more than I have to introduce him. It because I'm genuinely curious about their life and what they're exploring and what they're into. And I think that that's an easy place to start genuinely being interested in the lives of others. And for pastors, it's really hard because vocationally, we have our flock and we only have relational capacity or biologically, we are limited in how many relationships we can maintain. And so that is challenging. So we have to figure out how do we make space for that, you know what I mean? A lot of our evangelism techniques were built to kind of cheat the limitations of our biology. Right. So that's why I'll be one speaker.
- [68:50]
Carrie Newhoff
In front of stadiums.
- [68:52]
Mark Matlock
Yes. But if we're all doing the work in our neighborhoods and our communities and the people that we're coming in contact with. We have the capacity that we need to actually make the difference and the change. So I'd say that if I was a pastor, that would be the first thing, is find space. When I was younger, I was fascinated with an associate pastor of our church, Dr. Engel. He was a horticulturalist and he raised orchids. He even made a strain that he named after his wife, Ruth. And how romantic is that, right? Say this orchid flower never existed, it's named after you. Right?
- [69:28]
David Kinnaman
Right.
- [69:28]
Mark Matlock
Beautiful. Anyway, as a kid he had test tubes and greenhouses and all this stuff. And I just thought this guy was fascinating. And he left our church and took another assignment. And when I was a little bit older, in my teenage years, my grandmother was sick and she said, hey, Dr. Engel is actually in a room two doors down. And so I went over and I visited him. And he said, so Mark, what do you think you're going to do with your life? And I go, so, well, you know, I thought about going into ministry and he said, let me tell you something. He goes, the thing that you and I always connected on was my orchids. He goes, and I always required the church to give me Thursday off to work with the Orchid Society because that was my only connection with people outside the church. And he said, if you ever find yourself in an all Christian kind of situation like ministry, find your Orchid society. And so when I went to Biola University, I looked for my Orchid Society and it was a magic club in Beverly Hills, California. And that was by magic I mean like card tricks, just to be clear.
- [70:34]
Carrie Newhoff
So no ms, it wasn't Hogwarts.
- [70:37]
Mark Matlock
We're talking, yeah, David Cockfield stuff. And that was for me, the place that I was able to connect on something that I was interested in that wasn't the faith wasn't always the central thing. And me being potential missionary or minister was not the center of conversation. And I've always learned to have those spaces in my life. And I think it's important for pastors to have those spaces too, where they are. It's not just that I have a set of friends over here. It's like a community that has nothing to do with the church where you have a common ground, experience, common interest, common interest beyond that. And if you are genuinely curious about people, it will start changing. You will see God work in different ways. And pastors are smart enough to see the opportunity for their congregations, but they've got to get an Experience of it. Right. I mean, we just have to break some of the cycles of what we're doing to experience it.
- [71:32]
David Kinnaman
One of the things I've seen is a lot of pastors. That's really good, Mark. It is one of the things I've seen is a lot of pastors respond, pastors and ministry leaders. As I talk about next generation dynamics or for years now, people will come up to me afterwards, say, wow, you're describing my 20 something and their world. And you've given me, like, we'll talk about, you know, exiles in digital Babylon that they're growing up in a world that's just more complicated and let's have some compassion on. On that or whatever. And. And I think that tells. Tells me something that another practical tool, toolkit, is to really become immersed in the world of your kids and grandkids in a way that. That's like the Orchid Society. Like, there's a. I love my kids and they're. They're. They're friends. And it's like one of the highest compliments. Like when. When one of Emily's friends was like, man, we just love. We love Dave, you know, and just like, because I'm interested, one of them is from Bangladesh. And I asked him to read a book and he. So he's like, oh, you should read the Blood Telegram. And it's a little bit about the story of Bangladesh and Pakistan. And like, I was interested. I was curious about that. I was like, like, you know, so I think this, this idea of. And that relates to another idea is ask someone to, like my sister, I was like, give me a book, any book for Christmas. And she gave me a book called the Midnight Library. And that was one of the best books. I had read a fiction book a few years ago. So this notion of allowing your time to be voted on by someone else and for us, you know, leaders, that's a, That's a. That's a big sacrifice. Or we think it is.
- [73:04]
Carrie Newhoff
It's outside of our control.
- [73:06]
David Kinnaman
But it turns. It turns out that, like, it introduces you to a different lane of things thinking, you know, to be interested and curious in someone for its own right. And again, I have so much, so much room to grow in that I'd learn a lot from my friend Mark. But that's so much to teach you.
- [73:21]
Carrie Newhoff
I didn't think you were gonna go there. That's awesome.
- [73:24]
David Kinnaman
So those are. Those are some examples from my life of. Yeah. Recognizing how interesting it is to read a book that someone else is really interested in for Their own reasons. Like for. For Tausif, who's from. From Bangladesh, it's like. Like it's a deeply personal story about his family and all sorts of things. And, yeah, those are examples, right, of letting someone else speak into our time, which is our most valuable commodity, to learn someone else's perspective and take that for what it is.
- [73:57]
Carrie Newhoff
I love that it was personal for both of you. That's a great first step. So the book where a lot of the research is and the ideas, some of which we barely touched on today, Faith for the Curious, Mark's new book, Mark Matlock. And then David, there's a new initiative with Barna called State of the Church 2025. Some of the data in my church trends, some of the stuff that we talked about today, and a whole lot more is in there. Where can leaders go to learn more about State of the church?
- [74:26]
David Kinnaman
Well, Barna.com is one place they can learn about some of the different trends that we're following. But stateofthechurch.com is where that whole initiative is housed. And we love working with our partners at glu. And what's great is we're pulling so many different partners and organizations together. There's trends, what's working, what's trending. You know, what do we need to know? How do we actually build flourishing people and thriving churches is really the framework. So we would love to have you join us in that initiative. Stateofthechurch.com all right.
- [74:56]
Carrie Newhoff
Thank you so much, Mark, David, till next time. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Well, that was rich, man. We recorded that after a very long day at an event in Dallas. And I gotta tell you, those guys delivered in a way that I think, well, I hope you found as helpful as I did. You can get everything, including shownotes. There's a link wherever you're listening to this podcast episode or Simply go to carrienewhoff.com episode 704. You'll find everything there. And also if you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review. When you do that, it really, really helps us us here on the podcast and maybe share it with a friend. Text them the link, share it on social. When my team and I see it, we love to repost your shares as well. Next episode. I love Ramit Sethi and he is back on the podcast. We're gonna talk about how to teach couples about money in your church and a whole lot more. Also coming up on the podcast, we have Tyler Staton, Dave Ramsey, John Ortberg, Jenny Catron, Craig Groeschel. Justin Brierly, Mark Green, and a whole lot more. And I really hope this episode has been super helpful and if you enjoyed it, please do share it with a friend. We'll catch you next time. Hey, whatever you were doing today at the gym, out for a run, out for a walk, cooking dinner in your car, commuting, whatever it was, thank you for taking the time for listening. I try to bring you the very best conversations I can. I bring you the backstory that you would get if you were at dinner with these guys. That's my goal. And if we accomplished it, I'm so grateful. And I hope that by listening today, this helped you identify and potentially break a growth barrier you're facing. Hey, before we go pastors, I know how hard it can be to keep your sermons fresh and relevant, especially when you are preaching week after week after week after week. So whether you're hitting writer's block or you're in a rush trying to put the finishing touches on your sermon, it can be hard. And so I want to help. I've created a 10 step preaching cheat sheet. Actually, I just totally revised it. After decades of preaching, I've simplified my sermon prep into a series of steps and reminders. Now updated, they're engaging, relevant, memorable, and ready for preaching in Today's culture. It's 10 simple prompts with examples that you can start using as early as today day for next Sunday. So start transforming your preaching. Visit preachingcheatsheet. Com. Get your new copy for free. Even if you downloaded this a year ago or so, we've had 40,000 church leaders download it. It's updated. Check it out preachingcheatsheet.com to download your copy absolutely free.