The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast: Episode 704

The Dismal State of Evangelism, the Divide Between Church and Culture, and the Missed Opportunity of Unchurched People's Surprising Spiritual Openness

Guests: David Kinnaman (CEO, Barna Group), Mark Matlock (Author, Senior Fellow at Barna)
Host: Carey Nieuwhof
Date: January 21, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode concludes Carey’s "Five Disruptive Church Trends for 2025" mini-series, focusing on the evolving dynamics of evangelism within a rapidly changing culture. Carey, David Kinnaman, and Mark Matlock dive deep into why evangelism is faltering, the widening gap between church and culture, and how churches are missing the surprisingly open spiritual curiosity among unchurched people. Drawing on robust new Barna data, current research, and personal ministry experiences, they unpack the challenges and fresh opportunities for church leaders navigating an increasingly open yet complex spiritual landscape.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Culture of Spiritual Openness (03:04–05:07)

• Finding: Despite a narrative of secularization and cultural hostility, Barna research reveals that 72% of Americans describe themselves as spiritually open.
• Post-pandemic, younger generations (Gen Z, Millennials) are significantly more open to God and spiritual conversation.
• This openness isn’t always traditional—it's found in curiosity toward the supernatural, spirituality, and questions about meaning.

“Even among those who don't have a Christian background, there's just a tremendous amount of openness.”
— David Kinnaman (03:34)

2. Why Churches Miss the Moment (05:07–11:14)

• Culture-War Narrative: Many church leaders persist in a “culture is hostile; we’re under siege” narrative, which overshadows openness.
• Motivations: This alarmist approach fuels engagement—filling seats, raising funds—but relies on overstatement and sometimes untruth.

“Sometimes painting a really terrible picture is the best picture to paint, to motivate people to give.”
— Mark Matlock (05:31)

• Media Amplification: Social media and media algorithms widen the perceived church-culture divide, amplifying outrage and binary thinking.

“There is a scriptural model in talking about us versus the world... But they're not raising money, right?”
— David Kinnaman (09:00)

• Consequences: Weaponizing the “enemy” narrative not only distorts mission but can hinder the gospel.

“The problem is…the God of this age has made us make enemies out of the people that we're supposed to be loving and reaching out to.”
— Mark Matlock (10:49)

3. The Need for Curiosity and Adaptability (14:06–21:39)

• Curiosity Scales: Barna measures curiosity by stretching (seeking new experience) and embracing (tolerating ambiguity).
• Practicing Christians are measurably less comfortable with ambiguity (higher “need for closure”) than non-Christians or the spiritually open.

“There’s a pretty big gap… Practicing Christians have a higher need for closure.”
— Mark Matlock (15:37)

• Implications for Churches: A low tolerance for ambiguity can be an obstacle to welcoming spiritually curious visitors.

“If our churches…the higher need for closure…could that create an environment that isn’t open or welcoming to curiosity?”
— Mark Matlock (19:19)

• Buzz and Woody Metaphor: Kinnaman likens churchgoers to Buzz Lightyear (needs certainty) and suggests leaders must help them shed the “space suit” to engage more openly.
  (16:51–18:52)

4. Evangelism in Crisis (23:00–30:32)

• Startling Statistic: Only 1% of pastors feel their church is “very effective” at evangelism.
• Transition from Outreach to Inward-Focus: Churches have intensified their focus on discipleship, sometimes at evangelism’s expense.
• Obsolete Methods: Classic evangelism models assume prior Christian framework—no longer applicable in an age of pluralism and spiritual mixing.

“Our evangelism methods were built at a time when there was a different plausibility in our culture… We were never really taught about the real dynamics of how a person processes faith.”
— Mark Matlock (25:01)

• The Ethic of the Encounter: Matlock stresses that evangelistic conversations today may be only one moment in a person’s broader, spiritual journey—there’s less urgency to “close the deal,” more value in authentic relational presence.

5. Church Safety for the Curious (30:32–34:09)

• Church as “Safe” for Curiosity: Churches often aren’t safe places for open spiritual exploration or questions.
• Shifting Loyalty: Kinnaman notes people now revisit past commitments—deconstruction movements are pushing people to reexamine what conversion and discipleship truly mean.

“Not really…We need a whole new set of skills to be able to understand and interact with a curious generation.”
— David Kinnaman (30:32)

6. Rethinking Church Services & Weekend Experiences (34:29–41:23)

• Testimony from Laypeople: Integrating real-life stories from non-professional Christians is vital for credibility with seekers and skeptics.
• Authenticity: Churches should strive to create environments where the Holy Spirit is welcomed, not just the “human program”.

“Let saints who have been transformed by Jesus tell their story…integrate as much as you can…allow the Holy Spirit to work.”
— David Kinnaman (35:47)

• Halfway Houses: Programs like Alpha offer “third spaces” for spiritual curiosity—a model worth emulating.
• Principles of Alpha: Safe, judgment-free listening; hospitality and community; not forcing conclusions too early.

“Alpha creates a context whereby people over time realize, you really do care about me…somehow this allows them to see Jesus in a really powerful way.”
— Mark Matlock (43:11)

7. The Spiritual Marketplace & Mars Hill Moments (49:31–55:31)

• The spiritual landscape is saturated: meditation studios, tarot readings, crystals, CrossFit, and “deity-free” spiritualities abound.
• The church’s opportunity: engage people at the point of their search (“Mars Hill” moments), meet them in their spaces, and begin with curiosity.

“What do you get out of running? What do you get out of going to meditation? … That gives us a basis to have a spiritual conversation…and introduce them to Jesus.”
— Mark Matlock (51:31)

• Spiritual needs have migrated—now found in nature, social media, pop psychology, fitness communities, and more.

“We live in a very spiritually drenched time…People are placing more importance on these other places.”
— David Kinnaman (52:11)

8. Openness, Certainty, and the Relationship Paradigm (55:40–67:12)

• Certainty vs. Openness: Many Christians fear that openness can erode orthodoxy or lead to deconstruction.
• Carey and guests propose that confidence in faith (relational trust in Jesus) is more sustainable than brittle certainty—and paradoxically, great certainty can coexist with great curiosity.

“Certainty is not a relationship word…I have confidence in my wife. I don’t have certainty in my wife.”
— Mark Matlock (64:32)

• Discipleship must move from “right beliefs” to relational trust and lived intimacy with Jesus, which is the new apologetic for today’s world.
• Mental Health & Inner Peace: The hunger for peace and stability is a key missional opportunity—the “new apologetic.”

“Inner peace is a new apologetic. Because this generation is so hungry to find a place of peace.”
— David Kinnaman (64:04)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Evangelism Models:
  “You don't have to close the deal with every person you’re sharing your faith with.”
  — Mark Matlock (25:01)

• On Church Narrative:
  “Sometimes really good things which work…we keep going back to them. Because as a high need for closure, one year turns into two years turns into a decade, turns into a lifetime of fundraising.”
  — David Kinnaman (20:24)

• On Testimony:
  “People are really hungry for…how has God…shown up in your life in ways, especially when things are really tough, because we have a God who walks through suffering with us.”
  — David Kinnaman (62:16)

• On Certainty and Confidence:
  “Confidence in my wife, not certainty. Same with Jesus—lean into relational trust, not just beliefs.”
  — Mark Matlock (64:32)

• On the Missional Opportunity:
  “If we are examples of fruitfulness, the spiritually curious are going to go, how are you getting that?”
  — Mark Matlock (49:16)

Actionable Next Steps for Leaders

• Become Curious About Others:
  Simply be interested in people’s stories, journeys, and spirituality, without agenda.
• Create Halfway Spaces:
  Develop or support spaces like Alpha where people can process faith questions safely.
• Feature Lay Testimonies:
  Make space for regular, honest stories from everyday Christians in services and small groups.
• Lead Relationally:
  Focus on building trust, not just teaching beliefs. Value confidence (trust) over rigid certainty.
• Engage Real-Life Spiritual Needs:
  Address issues like mental health and inner peace as central to discipleship and outreach.
• Find “Your Orchid Society”:
  Like Dr. Engel’s counsel, engage authentically in non-Christian spaces to build genuine relationships.

Key Timestamps

• 03:04 — Spiritual openness in America today
• 05:07 — Why churches embrace a narrative of cultural hostility
• 14:52 — Curiosity vs. need for closure in faith communities
• 23:00 — Evangelism in crisis: Pastors’ self-assessment and missed opportunities
• 30:32 — Is the church a safe place for the spiritually curious?
• 34:29 — Practical adjustments to weekend services for the curious
• 41:23 — The Alpha model and the need for halfway spaces
• 49:31 — Observing and connecting with the wider spiritual marketplace
• 55:40 — Certainty, openness, and mental health as mission frontiers
• 64:04 — Inner peace as the new apologetic
• 67:43 — Where church leaders can start: curiosity without agenda

Further Resources

• Faith for the Curious by Mark Matlock
• Barna State of the Church 2025 initiative: stateofthechurch.com
• careynieuwhof.com/episode704 for notes and transcript