CNLP 707 | Dave Ramsey On How God Broke Him as a Leader, His Top Business Lessons, and Why People Who Think They're Micromanagers Might Not Be

Summary

The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast – Episode 707

Guest: Dave Ramsey

Theme: On Being Broken as a Leader, Hard-Earned Business Lessons, and Rethinking Micromanagement
Date: February 4, 2025

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Overview

In this compelling episode, Carey Nieuwhof sits down with renowned personal finance expert Dave Ramsey to explore the personal and spiritual journey that fueled his leadership philosophy. Ramsey shares how losing everything in his twenties "broke" him, discusses the tough business lessons learned over three decades, and redefines what it really means to be a micromanager. The conversation is rich with actionable wisdom for church and business leaders alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. When Breaking Becomes Building – Dave’s Origin Story

Timestamps: [00:01], [39:54], [40:15]

• Dave recalls his financial collapse in his twenties:
  “We didn't just go broke. I was broken by it because I had an inordinate amount of confidence. I think they call it arrogance.” (00:01, 40:15)
• Initially, Ramsey saw his financial skills as infallible, but becoming "the borrower's slave to the lender" led to his undoing.
• Spiritual significance:
  “The real journey was this spiritual undoing where you're just flat on your face going, 'I don't want to do anything without you, God, you're not only my savior, you're my Lord.'” (41:30)
• The collapse forced deep introspection and humility, leading Ramsey to root his business and leadership on biblical principles.

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2. Building a Business on Scripture—Even When It Seems Crazy

Timestamps: [02:55], [03:14], [04:20], [05:39]

• Early leadership decisions at Ramsey Solutions were filtered through Scripture, often appearing “crazy” to outsiders.
  • Example: Keeping a recently hired employee on payroll for a year after a terminal diagnosis, despite little contribution to the company.
  • “Basically, she never contributed a thing to the organization economically. But we're looking at that going, this is God's child, and she's sick and she needs the money, and we have the money, and so she's just on payroll.” (04:32)
• Living these values often led to countercultural grace and compassion in business practices.

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3. Lifelong Learning and Growth—Personal Development is Essential

Timestamps: [06:04], [07:48], [08:29]

• Dave’s investment in books and learning:
  “My mom taught me when I was a little kid that anything you want in a book, go find it.” (06:19)
• Devours leadership content from Jim Collins, Craig Groeschel, Malcolm Gladwell, Henry Cloud, John Maxwell, etc.
• “The personal growth that is necessary to continue to grow an organization... can come from just inexpensive things. It's just a matter of intentionality.” (07:34)
• The leader he is now would not have been capable of running his current business at 32.

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4. Leadership Pain Points—Loyalty vs. Integrity

Timestamps: [08:34], [10:19]

• Dave’s struggle with balancing loyalty and integrity:
  “My loyalty to someone has taken me too far to the point that it left my integrity in question. And those were learning experiences I don't ever want to have again.” (09:05)
• Wisdom is now applied faster to end the wrong things, avoiding “sanctioning something accidentally in the name of loyalty.”

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5. Delegation, Empowerment, and the Myth of Micromanagement

Timestamps: [12:19], [12:39]

• Dave reframes “micromanagement” as required, proactive training, not lack of trust.
  • “You're not a micromanager if you're holding onto the seat because they haven't yet got balanced... that's someone who's discipling, who's mentoring, who's training with the goal of letting go of the seat as soon as possible.” (13:12)
• True micromanagement is holding on after competence is proven.
• Memorable analogy: Teaching a child to ride a bike—hold the seat until they’re ready.

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6. Maintaining Core Brand Values While Empowering Others

Timestamps: [15:14], [18:24]

• The team at Ramsey Solutions maintains “orthodoxy” on their core mission and beliefs while embracing different personalities and styles.
• “You can't abandon the core tenets of where we are. So we can't have someone, for instance, suddenly decide that credit cards are okay at Ramsey. That's not probably going to work.” (17:37)
• Unity isn’t uniformity: “I can be the walking dad joke and you can be the girl next door... that's just style.” (17:59)

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7. Navigating Family Business Dynamics

Timestamps: [19:14], [20:49], [22:39], [23:08]

• Separate roles at work and at home to maintain healthy family relationships.
• “When I'm at the lake house, I have this wonderful hat that says best Papa Dave ever... But I don't wear that hat at work. And I'm the CEO and I'm the founder of Ramsey...” (19:42)
• Rules for family gatherings: Work talk is by permission only, limited to brief updates if needed.
• Emotional health is maintained by resolving conflicts before going on-air:
  “If there is a disagreement... we've got to heal that before we turn on a microphone because it's a problem.” (22:38)

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8. Scaling Leadership—What Dave No Longer Does

Timestamps: [27:57], [28:05], [28:07], [31:53]

• First stopped doing things he hated (accounting), then things he didn’t know how to do (software), and finally, things only he thought he had to do (signing every book, every time).
• On realizing his limits:
  “They need the information in the book and they need Jesus. He's the Messiah. I'm not... that was kind of a growing up thing for Dave.” (30:09)

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9. Hard Truths: Facing Himself as a Leader

Timestamps: [34:31], [36:11], [36:20], [38:16]

• Dave’s confession: Constant frustration with not being able to do more, faster, while also recognizing the cost of moving too quickly—hiring mistakes.
• “We perpetually seem to be moving slower than I want to. And yet the end result has been this massive thing, but it's still tiny compared to the need...” (37:15)
• Rooted in being an eldest child, natural overachiever, and in his “wounded healer” story—a “classic birth order” dynamic.

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10. The Lingering Impact of Being Broken

Timestamps: [39:54], [40:15], [41:30], [42:44]

• “What that process did was it took all the underpinning out and any illusion that Dave actually had his crap together. It was a breaking of you to powder.” (42:42)
• Ramsey’s faith and empathy are now central—he’s lost nearly all “fear of man,” leading with freedom and conviction.
  “A man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an opinion.” (44:04)
• Carey relates his own burnout experience, reflecting on similar spiritual themes.

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11. Leading Others Through Financial Turmoil—Then and Now

Timestamps: [48:19], [49:01], [49:23], [51:57]

• While financial technology has changed, the core drivers of financial distress—impulse, quick fixes, and deception—haven't.
• “Easy payments were in the newspaper in 1966, and easy payments are on Amazon prime right now. And so that hasn't really changed.” (50:48)
• For leaders and pastors:
  • 8 out of 10 in a congregation or staff live paycheck to paycheck.
  • Teaching financial discipline (like Financial Peace University) leads to increased generosity and long-term transformation.
  • “You forget that 8 out of 10 of these people you’re looking at are broke... they make good money, but they are broke.” (53:47)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the cost of leadership:

  “We didn't just go broke. I was broken by it...”
  – Dave Ramsey [00:01, 40:15]

• On delegation:

  “You're not a micromanager if you're holding onto the seat because they haven't yet got balanced...”
  – Dave Ramsey [13:12]

• On business and Scripture:

  “We decided that we actually were going to try to build and run a business and make our leadership decisions as close as we could to what Scripture says.”
  – Dave Ramsey [02:55]

• On scaling and letting go:

  “You don't have to do that. You're not Jesus. That's his job.”
  – Dave quoting his wife [28:57]

• On personal transformation:

  “The real journey was this spiritual undoing where you’re just flat on your face going, ‘I don’t want to do anything without you, God...’”
  – Dave Ramsey [41:30]

• On family dynamics:

  “I don't wear that hat at work. And I'm the CEO and I'm the founder of Ramsey... So Rachel needs to interact with me at work whether it's on camera or not.”
  – Dave Ramsey [19:42]

• On legacy and faith:

  “If they take everything again, oh, that's okay. It's not mine anyway. I'm just running this for him.”
  – Dave Ramsey [44:04]

• On the power of breaking:

  “The only thing good about the valley is it's fertile.”
  – Dave Ramsey [57:55]

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Practical Takeaways for Leaders

• Lead with conviction, even when it seems countercultural.
• Invest in personal growth and develop self-awareness around your blind spots.
• Don’t confuse necessary oversight and training with micromanagement.
• Clarify non-negotiable core values for your organization; allow diversity in style, not foundation.
• Prioritize relational and spiritual health with family and team members, inside and outside work.
• Remember: Most people you lead are struggling financially—equip and disciple accordingly.

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Dave’s Breaking and Bankruptcy: [00:01, 39:54, 40:15]
• Building on Scripture: [02:55–05:39]
• Personal Growth via Reading: [06:04–07:48]
• Pain Points: Loyalty vs. Integrity: [08:34–10:19]
• Redefining Micromanagement: [12:19–14:18]
• Empowering Diverse Teams: [15:14–18:24]
• Family Business Boundaries: [19:14–24:21]
• Scaling Leadership—What Dave Stopped Doing: [27:57–31:53]
• Hard Truths & Self-Awareness: [34:31–38:16]
• Gifts of Being Broken: [39:54–44:14]
• Financial Habits and Modern Challenges: [48:19–51:57]
• Coaching Your Team/Church Financially: [51:57–56:23]

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Final Reflections

Dave Ramsey’s journey is a vivid blueprint for servant leadership: letting hardship build humility, shaping culture with unwavering core values, and ever-learning while letting go. Leaders in any sphere—church or business—will find powerful, practical truths here to recalibrate their approach to people, money, and mission.

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For full episode notes, resources, and actionable leadership content, visit careynieuwhof.com Episode 707.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

The Art of Leadership Network. Well, we didn't just go broke. I was broken by it because I had an inordinate amount of confidence. I think they call it arrogance. And I have always been able to make money and they don't understand what's going on. And they didn't really, but that didn't matter. I still set myself up as the borrower's slave to the lender. And I still set up a house of cards.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Welcome to the Carey Newhoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here and thank you so much for joining us today. Dave Ramsey is in the house and we're gonna talk about what makes a leader tick. I mean, he's done this for three decades plus. And one of the things I'm always interested in, particularly at this stage, is like, what makes leaders like that get up in the morning. It's not money. Cause Dave's got lots of it now, but we actually get to the nub of it. And he talks about how going broke in his 20s broke him as a person, as a leader, why it still motivates him today, his top business lessons. You'll want to get your notepad ready because there's a lot here and why people who think they're micromanagers might not be. We're going to talk about that and a whole lot more. Hey, welcome. To those of you who are new to the podcast, I love having you here. It is a privilege and it's free to you. But I also know you pay with your time. So I like to bring you the conversation that a lot of other people maybe don't bring you or can't bring you ask questions that are different, as though you were sitting down with Dave yourself having a conversation. So wherever you're listening to this, welcome, whether that's at the gym, at home, on the road, we are so glad you're here. If you haven't subscribed, it's shocking, but like 70% of the people who listen to this podcast haven't subscribed.

[Podcast Announcer]

Just do it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And that makes a big difference to us and will make a big difference to you because you never miss an episode. Like next episode is John Orkberg, for example. So Dave Ramsey is a number one national bestselling author, a personal finance expert, host of the Dave Ramsey show, heard by more than 18 million listeners every week. He's authored eight national best selling books since 1992. He's helped people regain control of their money, build wealth and enhance their lives. And he serves as CEO for the company Ramsey Solutions. And now a quick word from one of our partners. And now to my conversation with Dave Ramsey. Well, Dave, welcome back to the podcast.

[Dave Ramsey]

Honored to be with you again, my friend. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, we get to chat a little bit, and I want to do some retrospective. You've done this for over three decades. Decades, which is a major accomplishment. And when you look back at over 30 years of Ramsey Solutions, what leadership decision did you make that seemed crazy at the time? That turned out to be a fantastic decision.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. I guess all of it would fall in the bucket of. We decided that we actually were going to try to build and run a business and make our leadership decisions as close as we could to what Scripture says.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Wow.

[Dave Ramsey]

And then a whole bunch of things flow out of that decision. Right? Some crazy meetings, some crazy levels of grace, some ending relationships abruptly based on that the outside world would call crazy. But we just don't do that. We can't be there if we're going to be Jesus people, we can't be in that. We can't be in that relationship. And so, you know, all those kinds of things that flow out of that, that. Honestly, I mean, the. I don't know, the mainstream business guy inside of me is looking at the spiritual Dave running this thing, trying to be a Christian, a Bible guy running the thing. Like, he's a weirdo, because he was a weirdo, but it was a good weirdo overall.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So let's talk about some of those crazy meetings, crazy decisions. What happened in those meetings? What was so counterintuitive that it made business Dave? Look at spiritual Dave going, you're nuts.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I mean, we have extended grace to team members that were in, like, for instance, an illness situation that is just ridiculous by worldly standards. I mean, we've got one lady that was out. She came to work for us. She worked for us for 60 days and got a cancer diagnosis. And she had been there two months, and it was a death sentence. And she lived a year, and she was on payroll for a year. So basically, she never contributed a thing to the organization economically. But we're looking at that going, this is God's child, and she's sick and she needs the money, and we have the money, and so she's just on payroll. And we've done that type of thing multiple times. And every time we're doing it, we're looking at it going, this is weird. It's good and it's noble and you're proud that you're doing something kind and compassionate, but economically, it's suicidal. And we have the money. It's God's money. So what would God do? He would take care of that little girl. So we took care of her.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What? When you look at the investment of time or money that you've made over the years, and this could be as small as a book, or it could be, hey, I dropped seven figures on this. But what is one of the best investments you've made over the course of your leadership? Could be in yourself, could be in the company. Take it wherever you want.

[Dave Ramsey]

I think there's a lot of things we could put in that category again, I guess. And there's a lot of things that come to mind. The first thing that does come to mind is books. I'm just a voracious reader. My mom taught me when I was a little kid that anything you want in a book, go find it. And so, you know, I wanted to learn how to be a leader. And so I end up reading everything Jim Collins has written everything, everything. Craig Groeschel has written everything. You know, Malcolm Gladwell has written everything that Henry Cloud has written, some of the things that John Maxwell has written. But he's written too much to read all of it. So. But you know, but I mean, he's like 80 books or something. I've not read all those. No, but, but I mean the. But, you know, I get that consumption of information changes you and it changes your heart and it teaches you knowledge. Knowledge is a good thing according to scripture. And so I'm gathering knowledge about how to lead, not just how to boss. And so Maxwell's law of the lid and irrefutable laws of leadership is true. The guy that runs the $300 million Ramsey today, the 32 year old that started it 32 years ago, couldn't do that. He didn't have the capacity, he didn't have the intellect. He didn't have the strength of spiritual perseverance that I do today. And all of that was added to by reading, by going to conferences and taking notes and sitting there and learning prayer, Bible study, all those things. But the personal growth is, that is necessary to continue to grow an organization. It can come from just inexpensive things. It's just a matter of intentionality.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, getting by the law of the lid is a real challenge. I'm in a process of reinventing myself right now. You know, definitely not a $300 million company, but it never stops. It just like, are you kidding me? I thought I would have arrived by now. You never arrive.

[Dave Ramsey]

No.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know that. What have been some of the biggest barriers that you've found or the biggest growth opportunities in terms of reinventing yourself because. Yeah, bootstrapping yourself, literally, doing the seminars. We've talked about that before in hotels, teaching everything yourself to now running a massive organization. You probably had to reinvent yourself 25 times. So what's this?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, this morning.

[Carrie Newhoff]

This morning, exactly, Dave.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, I think my biggest pain point in there that has caused the growth is just learning to deal with the team, learning to deal with people with more wisdom. I'm such a wide open, call it like I see a passionate person, always have been, and loyal, but loyal to a fault and have integrity, but integrity to a fault. And sometimes my loyalty to someone has taken me too far to the point that it left my integrity in question. And those were learning experiences I don't ever want to have again. And yet I don't want to now suddenly be disloyal or suddenly treat people like a commodity, like a product that they can just be chopped off and sent away at the first. In the name of integrity. That's a Pharisee. So I've got it somewhere in there. But the most painful mistakes I've made is I look back at some of the folks, some of the things that I actually. That I was allowing and I didn't know I was allowing because I was allowing someone to continue in a role that I shouldn't have. That's happened from everything from little things to big things that were in the public eye. And so it's just a pain. And there's a lot of pain around it. So I guess developing that wisdom to where I'm much quicker now to end something where I'm not sanctioning something accidentally in the name of loyalty.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You're an enneagram8, I believe. Is that right, Dave?

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, I wrote the chapter. Yeah. I mean, Ian and I had dinner and he's like, when I wrote this, I was thinking of you. You know, I mean.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Anyone that reads that chapter, you've got my autobiography. I get intimacy from conflict. Yeah, for sure.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And so that leads me to this question. Are you naturally a trusting person? Do you naturally trust other people? I think you do. Okay, so for you to release, equip, and empower a team was not a hard thing. Or was it?

[Dave Ramsey]

No, it was a very hard thing. But it wasn't because I'm not trusting. It was because I required our brand to be protected, our witness of our brand to be protected. And so if I released something to someone and they're Misbehaving on a Christian moral standard just because I trusted them, then I've got a mess on my hands. It's damaged my brand, and so I can't do that, and I never would have intentionally done that. Or if I release someone who simply is incompetent and they simply are not good at their job, or they're not good at simple people skills, they don't return phone calls or emails, and they don't put a bow on a project properly, then that damages not only the Ramsey brand, but the witness that the brand is trying to put forth in the name of Christ. And so if you're going to put a fish on the back of it, you got to drive it. Right. So I'm very demanding of excellence before I release, but I'm in general trusting of people. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And I think particularly with a personal brand, like, until fairly recently, it was the Dave Ramsey show, now it's Ramsey Solutions, et cetera. They're kind of playing with your name, with your integrity, et cetera. So what has a tension between empowering and micromanaging been like for you, particularly in a personal brand?

[Dave Ramsey]

I suddenly discovered somewhere in the early days reading about delegation and trying to figure out delegation. I thought. I thought I was a micromanager, and I wasn't at all. Here's the. Here's an easy thesis for the delegation book that we did. Okay.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

The thesis is, it's easy to delegate to someone, and you should delegate to someone only when you can trust their competence and their integrity. And until they have proven that while being trained, you're supposed to be training them, you're not a micromanager. But you can't let go of the bicycle seat until they have balanced. They're gonna fall over, and they're not only gonna scratch their knee, they're gonna tear up your bicycle. And so, you know, it's like, you're not a micromanager. If you're holding onto the seat because they haven't yet got balanced, that's not a micromanager. That's someone who's discipling, who's mentoring, who's training, and with the goal of letting go of the seat as soon as possible. I'm out of breath. Please balance so I can let go. When you're teaching your little baby to ride a bike, all I remember is huffing and puffing doing that. But that's how I look at it. I want to let go, but I can't until you've proven. And I'm not a Micromanager. Unless they're balancing perfectly. And I still won't let go. That's a micromanager. But otherwise, you're just training. And I think sometimes people think, well, I'm a micromanager. Cause I won't let go. No, the people aren't ready. You can't let go until they're trained and they have proven competency and integrity at either the simple task or the overall concept, whatever it is you're delegating that you have to see a pattern that gives you a belief that you can let go of the seat.

[Carrie Newhoff]

When you think about empowering and control, you've developed a team of communicators. Some of them are family, right? Your daughter Rachel. But you also have George Campbell. You have others. They all bring their personality to the stage. How do you delineate the line between that's totally cool, be yourself, and this isn't our brand? I think that's a big challenge. I'm thinking about all the pastors who have other communicators. I think about leaders who are developing other leaders. And particularly when you're in the public eye. Right. Like, I've known George since he was basically an intern at Ramsey, and now, you know, he's a major personality for you guys. But George isn't Dave. George is different. Your daughter isn't Dave. No, you know, John Deloney isn't Dave. So how do you let them be themselves but also make sure that, hey, this is still who we are?

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I think we kind of established almost a doctrinal orthodoxy. And if we can agree on the main things, then whether or not we have a piano is not a problem. Right. If we can agree on Jesus is my Savior, if I can agree on he was crucified, died, buried, raised three days later for the sins of the world, including me, If I can agree on that. We can discuss whether you speak in tongues later. We can discuss whether you wear skinny jeans later. We can discuss your different sensitivity to your upbringing later. That's all fine, but we need to stay core to. Okay? What we're doing is we're a here to serve the people on the other side of the microphone. We're not here for our own benefit. They are the hero in the story, not us. We're here to serve them. That's orthodox. You gotta stay with that one. We're here to do that through the lens of scripture and common sense. And we're gonna be unapologetically, but not beat people up with the Bible, but unapologetically who we is. We are Christians and we're very, very good at what we do. And we're the best. If you need the help. Financial Peace University is by far the largest class that's ever been taught in evangelical Christianity on money. Not even a close second. 50,000 churches have taught 10 million people. Because it was really, it is really, really good. And it was really good in the old days, but that was out of that same orthodoxy. It's required. So you can't be a part of Financial Peace University. On the stage, George Camel. If you're Rachel Cruz, if you're not going to level up to that level of excellence, because that's what we're all akin to. But having said that, then I don't need to. You know, I can be the walking dad joke and you can be the girl next door. I mean, that's all fine. That's just style. And I can be the enneagram 8 and you can be the 3, or I can be the high di and you could be the high C. I don't care. You know, I don't have a Ph.D. like John DeLoney and. Except. Except Ph.D. in dumb. But the, you know, so I mean, we can have different styles at how we get at it, and we should because we need to appeal to different people groups and tribes. But you can't abandon the core tenants of where we are. So we can't have someone, for instance, suddenly decide that credit cards are okay at Ramsey. That's not probably going to work. Right. So. But we can, you know, we can have a lot of fun discussions on different people, explain it in different ways why you wouldn't do it different than me with, you know, big scissors chopping them up, you know, or whatever. You might not. That might not be your style. That's fine. So that what we're looking for is people that have a strong enough intellect and a strong enough personality to be a thought leader. You gotta have a thought and you gotta be a leader both and simultaneously be humble enough to. To conform to the core orthodoxy. And then you get to be yourself.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I'd love to talk. I know we've discussed this before when you've been on the show, but a little bit more about family dynamics and I absolutely. Daniel, is he still the president of Ramsey Solutions? Your son Rachel is involved. Your other daughter is involved. But you and Rachel have a really cool on air chemistry. I mean, everybody knows she's your daughter. You're her dad. You kind of play off that sometimes, but you don't play into it on a regular basis. How have you kept those relationships healthy and what have been some flashpoints or inflection points along the way to getting to that healthy stage? Because I think any parent of adult children, I have adult children, I get to work with one. There's always inflection points, there's always flashpoints. How have you navigated that with your family?

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, someone taught us early as we started studying family businesses. One person that talked to us a lot about it was Priscilla Schreier. She, you know, Tony Evans daughter. Right. And so and Jerry, her husband was on the phone one time and you know, with me and Rachel and was 20 years ago, probably something like that. So we've gotten some wonderful people like that to speak into our lives, but it wasn't her. But someone like that at some point told us that we need to be very, very careful to make sure that at work we're playing our at work role. At home we can play. I've got a, when I'm at the lake house, I have this wonderful hat that says best Papa Dave ever. And that's the hat I wear when I'm at the lake house with eight grandkids. But I don't wear that hat at work. And I'm the CEO and I'm the founder of Ramsey and I was the first personality and I still am a personality. And so Rachel needs to interact with me at work whether it's on camera or not. And I need to interact with her like any other personality. So George is going to say, okay, that guy's the owner of the company. He's the CEO. He's also the first guy that was on the microphone. He taught me a lot about this. And yet he allows and wants to have this banter. And so we need to have this fun and these on air arguments, but never in a disrespectful way because you wouldn't do that to your CEO.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I'm not disrespectful to George because I would. I don't. Or Deloney or Rachel on the air. So I don't use my dad voice, Floyd Mouse do on Rachel inside these walls. And for that matter, she's 30 something years old. I don't use my dad voice at all. It's not any good anymore. But. But I for sure don't do it at work. And she can't be the petulant teenager who rolls her eyes.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

That her dad is just ridiculous. Okay, that would, you wouldn't, you wouldn't get away with that if George did it right, and so she's got to sit in that exact same role and then we can have this banter and fun. And, you know, John Deloney and I cut up as much as Rachel and I do on the air and, you know, throw barbs and fun insults back and forth, you know, just picking at each other and that kind of stuff. But because it's entertaining and it's part of the Persona of who we are. And so Rachel just steps right into that. And it's easy for Rachel because she is the. Of the three kids, she's the one I would argue with the most from birth to today. And so it's fun for us to have an on air argument, but we have to keep it within those boundaries because otherwise it creates harm in the relationship. And truthfully, what you and I do with these microphones, it's so, it's so exposing, it's so transparent. If there was a hurt thing that happened, everyone would feel it. You can't, you can't mask that over. Or if you got. If you both turn on the microphone, you're both truly were angry with each other, everyone would know it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Everyone's gonna know.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, you cannot hide that. And so you've got to heal if there is a disagreement, an honest disagreement where there is actual anger or something, we've got to heal that before we turn on a microphone because it's a problem. We haven't, thank God, had a major one.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Do you have rules? I talked to a lot of ministry people, even work people who are doing this as a couple, doing it as a family could be generational. Do you have rules about, like, at the lake house, it's definitely your Papa Dave, et cetera, but if the kids just swing by the house, Your kids swing by the house. Do you ban work at home? Is it a mix of like, we're talking shop and then we're talking about what we're doing next Tuesday? Do you have any rules on that? Or you just let.

[Dave Ramsey]

We don't talk about work in a family gathering unless someone asks. Like, again, it would be Rachel usually. And she would say, hey, Daniel, I heard such and such is going on on the fourth floor down there. Tell me about that. Or can wait a minute, everybody. Can I ask Daniel about that after she's already asked him, right? And then she. And she says, can I have a five minute timeout and let Daniel tell me about this? And everybody's like, okay, five minutes, Rachel. And then so, you know, we'll get caught up on whatever the thing was she was asking about. And because she wasn't in the meeting, the leadership meeting or whatever, where that, where that issue was discussed and that's a real thing that would happen right there. But then it's like, okay, then it's back off and we're back to being father, daughter, grandparent, whatever our role is at Thanksgiving dinner or at Christmas dinner or whatever. I mean, you know that. And so because otherwise the family members like Rachel's husband or Denise's husband or Daniel's wife, they don't want to sit and listen to this stuff all day long. I mean, it's not, it destroys the family time, the quality of the family time. If it's just another leadership meeting for Ramsey, you know what?

[Carrie Newhoff]

We have a very similar rule. It's like permission to talk about X. So with my wife and I, it's a little bit different. We'll toggle in between. But when the kids are around, Sam basically runs my company and it's like, hey, can we talk about work for a minute? And sometimes the answer is no or make it really short because our relationship. Our relationship is more important than that. All right, shifting gears a little bit. If we were to follow you around for a day, what would surprise us about how you use your time? What would be like, oh, never thought you'd do that. Could be a personal rhythm. It could be how you spend your time as CEO of Ramsey Solutions. Just what is an unusual use or especially important use of time for you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Important might be, I don't think there's anything unusual. I mean, you'd be bored. It's just because I'm just getting my work done. I think it still surprises people. Somewhere along the line, I shifted probably in my 20s, from being a night person to being a morning person because that allowed me to get time in the word and get my day, get the foundation for my day laid spiritually, emotionally, even laying out, you know, a to do list or whatever for the day. And so Sharon and I mean, we're 64, 65 years old. We still get up at 5am Even on our own vacation, we get up at 5am and it's just part of, we enjoy life better if we get up and start our day early. And so, and we'll do that. I'm training a puppy right now. And so I've got the, a four mile walk around the golf course. I do as the sun's coming up. And so I'm praying and yelling at the dog. And so, but so, so me And Bella the Beast are out in the mornings and I'm getting her, you know, where she can do her proper commands and recalls and so forth. And I enjoy that. I enjoy that, enjoy working with her. And so I got, that's an hour in the morning as the sun's coming up, and I'm just going for a walk around the golf course and going back home and all this and I got to clean the dog up. But the, you know, so it's just early. We're up at 5am and since the sun's up or starting to come up, me and the dog head out and then we'll get back in. Sharon and I'll do some things and, you know, I'll get down to the office. But my day is just minute by minute is laid out before I get here, working on something I wanted to, wanted to or needed to work on. And as the CEO or as a personality. So if I'm recording an audiobook, you know, it's 16 hours or so, I've got to end up booking around some stuff and not, not straight. But I'm saying I'll get a three hour session, a two hour session and whatever. Get that on the calendar and I'll work that through during the day. There's nothing that you wouldn't expect me to be doing. I mean, you're not going to come and go, whoa, that was something. No, not really. It's not. It's not that. Not that big a deal.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, Strategic quitting is really important too, particularly when you think about scale. There are probably a lot of things you used to do that you don't do anymore and some things that you do now that you never used to do. What are a couple of those key changes I'm thinking about? I talk to leaders all the time who are at an inflection point and they're like, oh, I used to love, you know, doing pastoral care. I used to love answering all the mail. I used to love answering all my email. I can't do that anymore. What are some strategic things you have quit over the years that have helped Ramsey Solutions move to the next level?

[Dave Ramsey]

I first quit doing things that I hate doing. That was my first thing and that was an easy one to quit.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So what did you hate doing?

[Dave Ramsey]

Accounting. I hate accounting. I love numbers and I love the results and the reports that a properly built accounting system and I know how to build a proper accounting system, but the actual building of it and entering the chart of accounts and all that, just shoot me. Oh, please. And so, but I do want to read the numbers, I want to read the sales reports, I want to read the P and L. So I can, I'm good enough at math, I can see things when I'm reading it. And that's enjoyable. It's running the business well. But actually doing accounting, No, I mean writing the checks and in the old days and making the tax deposits for the 941s and all that and the nuanced details and all that stuff. No, I got rid of that as soon as I could. That was one of the first people I hired. And, and so that, that, that type of thing. The second thing I learned to offload that I didn't really have a choice in was just things I don't know how to do. I don't know how to write lines of code. And I have almost 500 people on our team that write that are software engineers or digital platform managers or whatever. And I don't even know what they do, actually. Not. I mean, I know what they do and I have no idea how they do it. And so if you needed me to write a line of code in this place, and we write a lot of code every week, you'd be up a creek. I don't know how to do that. And so I've got to delegate things I don't know how to do. And then the things I started offloading. The third thing was things where my wife would tell me, you don't have to do that. You're not Jesus. That's his job, that people if. So I would sit in the early days when we would finish a live event and sign books after I had spoken for three hours, sign books for two and a half, until every single person in the building that wanted a book signed. Because I wasn't going to be that guy who was too cool or too big an ego to sign a book. And I'm not too big an ego to sign a book. I just came to realize that a signed book does not change someone's life or a 30 second interaction with me does not change someone's life. That's not what they need. They need the information in the book and they need Jesus. He's the Messiah. I'm not. And so you can touch the hem of my blue jeans. It won't do a thing, I promise you. And so in an effort to be accessible, in an effort to not appear to be an ego or whatever, I spent a lot of energy, I burned a lot of calories that really weren't necessary to Cause the person on the other side to win. And that was really our goal anyway. But it was more of a statement of, I don't want to be this guy. And then I realized it doesn't matter. And it's not that I became an ego and I'm too good to sign books, but I mean, I still sign a lot of books. And if somebody stops me somewhere and wants to take a picture, I 100% do that. But I don't have to do a picture line for four hours, which I used to all the time do them. And I didn't have to then, but it came under the heading of they didn't need me. And I thought they needed me. And so that was kind of a growing up thing for Dave. Like, oh, you're really not that important. You're not the messiah. That's his job. And so what they did need from me was the transfer of the information in a clear communication and in a communication style that lifted and motivated and helped them aspire to be what God is calling them to be, not what Dave is calling them to be. And so getting all that stuff straight in my head took a decade or two.

[Carrie Newhoff]

One of the things sometimes that happens is we really enjoy something that we were doing in the early days or a few years ago that we're probably not good at. Other people could do it more, but we just really enjoyed doing it. Is there anything that you really loved doing that you kind of miss that you had to let go? Today's episode is brought to you by Glu.

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[Dave Ramsey]

Nothing comes to mind. Oh, good place to be in. I mean, I'm sure. There's something I shouldn't be doing right now, but I don't know what it is. It's a blind spot. I didn't have to let it go. We just did. So I don't know if it answers your question properly, but, I mean, we did these arena events for a long time that were five to 10,000 people. I kind of missed those days. There was a lot of energy from that, a lot of fun with that. But I think I have a selective memory about how much fun it was. I know there was a lot of that. They were a total pain in the butt on one side. Right. And on the other side, it was a lot of fun and it was very heady because you had, you know, this kind of turnout for our brand and that kind of stuff. And so these wonderful pictures of the entire arenas there to see us do our thing. And so that's a. That's such an ego stroke. But the. But I don't know that we quit doing them because they. We're not accomplishing our goals overall of helping the people on the other side, like at the volume we wanted to. They were logistical nightmares. And we're not necessary to run our business today and not necessary to have the effectiveness today. So. But that's different than. I just. I wasn't good at it. But I love doing it. I. Gosh, I don't. I. I'm sure there is something, Carrie, but I just can't. I'm. I just can't make it come to mind right now. I'm sorry.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. You know what? Financial reality is a tough reality for a lot of us. Right? You just look at the numbers and this is what do for loving people every day are like, oh, yeah, here's my debt, here's what I owe on credit cards, et cetera. They're just hard truths. And you either correct or you go under. When you think about your own leadership over all these years, what is one of the hardest truths that you've bumped up against personally? Might be financial. It might be something else. But what's one of the hardest truths that you've just kind of had to look at in the mirror? For me, I'll go first. It was probably my impact on other people. When I'm together on an interview like this, I'm pretty nice, but you get me in my unguarded moments, and I can say things that really hurt people. That's true. Personally. That's true. Leadership wise, I'm an enneagram8. So one of the hardest truths is I'm not as nice as I think I am to the people that I care about the most. Do you have anything like that?

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm an enneagram. A too. So I have to share that. That's not a question. We have to have that in common. There's no way around. I don't have some of that. Obviously I do less of it now than in the old days because you become aware of it. And that's the beautiful thing about something like an Enneagram. You look at it and you go, oh, that's the weak part of this. I get it now. And I probably do do that weak part. And I name it something positive, but it's a negative. But yeah, that. That's the beautiful thing about being self aware on something. Opens those things up. So the question again is what then? Let me rephrase that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What is the hardest truth, one of the hardest truths you've had to face in the mirror and go, yeah, I need to deal with that.

[Dave Ramsey]

I stay perpetually frustrated that we cannot do more faster, but yet we've got a series of principles that we live our lives by that we don't get out over our skis on money. We don't get out over our skis on having the right team in the building. We don't hire too fast in order to get a project done. Because every time we get out over our skis and we hire too fast, crazy gets in the building and it takes me three years to clean it up. And all in the name of trying to do something a little bit too fast. And. But I, you know, because we have. We're trying to catch a, what, tidal wave with a teacup, for goodness sakes. We get people out of debt. I mean, think about it. Not like we, like, not like we have a small job and so. But we perpetually seem to be moving slower than I want to. And yet the end result has been this massive thing, but it's still tiny compared to the need. And so I just. And I would imagine God is tired of my whining about this not moving fast enough. I think you call it prayer, but I think it's probably whining. And so it's just not moving fast enough perpetually to suit me. And that's a, that's a misguided ambition. That's a misguided level of aggression or misguided level of. It's almost a greediness, but not greed for money type of a thing or greed for power, but it's just this thing of more, more, more and more. Because every little bit of service we've been able to do has been so rewarding that I just want to do more of it. I want more of it. And so chocolate cake was great. Give me the whole cake. I may go to my grave with that one. I don't know. God's been working on me a long time on that one.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Do you know where that comes from? Is there an origin story I can relate? Like, more. Never fast enough, Never big enough. Do you know where that comes from?

[Dave Ramsey]

Probably classic birth order. I'm the oldest child, and so always overachiever. And I'm hyperactive as a kid. 100% of my report cards have the note. Dave talks too much. Dave can't pay attention. Dave can't stay in his seat. 100% of them said that, you know, growing up. And so you find them in the Ramsey attic. That. That's. That's a verifiable thing. So undiagnosed add, if you want to call it that. I don't know. But it's just. That goes. That level of energy goes into it. And then you mix that with God, you know, strikes us with lightning, and we lose everything and injects a passion for hurting people in the area where we were hurting the Larry Crab. You know, I don't. A wounded healer. Right. And so I don't trust a man doesn't walk with a limp. And I'm that guy completely. As much as anybody you'll ever meet in your life. I'm completely defined by that. And so that added. That didn't release it. It made it worse. So that call on my life then. And it's a God call for sure. But then again, it's just like being called to be a pastor. Then what do you do? You destroy your family because all you do is live at the church because you're so passionate about it. And so it's the same thing. You got to keep it somewhere. There has to be this wisdom in there to the way you play out the call that it's not destructive and instead is instructive. And, man, that's a deal. That's a real deal for people that are wired like us.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. And I'm wondering. We talked about it before, but kind of glanced off it. You know, you talk about. I think you were in your 20s when you went bankrupt and it became your life's mission. What was the pain like in that season where you realized everything you'd built collapsed?

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, we didn't just go broke I was broken by it because I had an inordinate amount of confidence. I think they call it arrogance. And I have always been able to make money. When I was 12 years old, I'm cutting 27 yards. I mean, I've always been able to. And no one had to tell me to. I just did. I mean, it just, I, I can go make money. I just know how to. I. But I. And so I thought I can just make money. And these people that are just bureaucrats, they don't understand. They're stupid bankers and they don't understand what's going on. And they didn't really. But that didn't matter. I still set myself up as the borrower's slave to the lender. And I still set up a house of cards that allowed a bureaucrat to tear my life down. And so, you know, God did harden Pharaoh's heart. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't just Pharaoh on his own decided to be. To mess the whole thing up. And so there was a story unfolding there for the good of a people group, not simply an individual. So that's what's happening there. It was just this incredible arrogance. And so my poor wife. Oh, I mean, the first seven years of our marriage, I mean, thank God she is not married to that same hillbilly that he grew in Christ and hadn't arrived yet by any stretch. But she will tell you it's a completely different man than the guy she married 43 years ago. And that's the transformation of the power of the cross. So that was necessary for that. The money piece and the financial piece was kind of almost a. A subplot. The real journey was this spiritual undoing where you're just flat on your face going, I don't want to do anything without you, God, you're not only my savior, you're my Lord. You are in charge now. How do I be married? How do I raise kids? How do I do money? How do I do whatever it is I'm going to do? What's your book say and what do you want me to do? I am. I surrender all. Was not a Baptist altar call. I surrendered all. And that was the, that was the real story. The subplot was I went bankrupt. But it. What that process did was it took all the underpinning out and all. Any illusion that Dave actually had his crap together.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It was a breaking.

[Dave Ramsey]

It was a breaking of you to powder. Yeah, I mean, it was all the way down. And so it was. I don't know how Someone goes through something like that that doesn't have a faith story to attach it to. Because I had met God on the way up as an adult when I was making money, but I got to know him, really know him on the way down. And the benefit of that today, all these years later, 30 years later, is my fear of man is really close to zero. You know, you can't do anything to me. You don't have power over me at all. I mean, there's nothing you can really threaten me with. And it's not that I'm rash or really courageous or anything, it's just that I've been there. And as my old pastor said, a man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an opinion. So you can't convince me that Jesus is not Lord of this world. He's in charge of this thing, and you can't convince me of that. There's no amount of doctrinal discussion or, you know, secular academia that you can convince me otherwise. And so I'm, we're going to do this this way. And if they take everything again, oh, that's okay. It's not mine anyway. I'm just running this for him. And if he decides he doesn't want me to have it and run it, that's fine. But so far all he's done is bless it for the last 35 years.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, it's one of those things where I had a breaking. It wasn't financial, it was just a burnout. It was like emotional. And you get so desperate you realize you're completely out of control. There's nothing I can do to bring this back. And a lot of people in a moment like that get bitter. You got better. And I'm wondering what were the factors or why do you think you just didn't become the cynical, hardened enough of you? God, I'm just going to go out there and make another $10 million. What pivoted you toward Christ in that circumstance?

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I, I probably had the benefit of being a brand new believer, which meant my enthusiasm was still very high.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, so that came your salvation happened in your 20s?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Dave Ramsey]

As I first start making money, I'm driving a Jaguar and I thought, this is not enough. And I met God and it was a very experiential thing for me. It was not an intellectual exercise. And so it was also an intellectual exercise, but it was very experiential. And so I had the, I had the benefit of the enthusiasm of A brand new, naive believer. And so, yeah, I got mad at God a lot because he wouldn't get me out of it because my new. My new boss was not taking care of me. You know, like, how come. How can you say you love me and you let. You know, they just took our car, you know, they just cut our water off. How can you say you love me and, you know, then you just end up in job, right? And you just.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, you do. You do, Dave. Huh? And that gives me a deep insight. Well, some insight into why you're still so passionate about it. I remember asking you last time we talked, how can you do this? The same issues every day. We got this much in credit card debt. We're over our skis financially. And you just seem to have this endless compassion for people who call in and sometimes they do dumb things. But it's like before I burned out, I would just. Oh, you're burning out. Gosh, you're just weak, Dave. What's wrong with you now? I'm like, pull up a chair. Got all day. What's going on? It's probably a very similar vibe.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly. Exactly. You can smell it in the air when you walk in the room. When they call on the air, I can hear the tightness in their throat. I can still hear it. And my throat starts getting tight if I'm not careful. Still, still I join. I join them in it. And empathy, but not sympathy. But, yeah, and that's the thing I've had to transfer to the new Ramsey personalities because they don't have that experience.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You don't require them to go bankrupt.

[Dave Ramsey]

We don't require. Yeah. We don't require you to have been addicted to drugs, to lead people away from drugs. But. Yeah, and so you don't have to go through that. But you need to be able to recognize what's going on emotionally, spiritually, in that person when they're calling and meet them where they are.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How do you help them see that? Because even your daughter. I mean, was Rachel alive when you went bankrupt or. She came along after.

[Dave Ramsey]

She was born in April and we filed in September. She was a brand new baby.

[Carrie Newhoff]

She has no living memory.

[Dave Ramsey]

Only memory she has is us being broke.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

But, you know, she does remember that, which is beneficial. And she's heard these stories over and over and over. And so the children of Israel tell their stories over and over and over so that they never forget. And how we got here. We parted the Red sea. We had 40 years in the wilderness. And Moses, he shouldn't have Struck the rock because he didn't get to enter the land. Every child can tell that story so that they don't. So that they don't. If they step into a part of that story in their own lives, they can see it. Or if they see someone else in a deliverance or a wilderness moment, then they can see it. And so that's the only thing we can do, is tell the stories.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So you have a lot of compassion. You're also an emotional person when you take calls today, a lot has changed in personal finance. I saw an ad recently or a news piece from the early 90s that Burger King started taking credit cards for the first time in the 1990s. And people were like paying for a whopper on a credit card. What are you thinking? I mean, that just shows you how much things have changed, changed in the last 30 years. What are some of the things that drive you crazy about the financial problems people are facing today versus 30 years ago? Is it harder? Is it not harder? What are some things that just kind of upset you about finance today?

[Dave Ramsey]

I think the core drivers are exactly the same. It's just the product lines and the methodologies come out differently. And so you're right. I was on the air when fast food started taking. And after that, a bigger sin. Grocery stores start taking credit cards. Right.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You used to have to pay cash or check for groceries. I remember standing behind people who were writing checks. Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

But we made so much fun of McDonald's on the air in the early days of talk radio for taking a credit card. We did skits making fun of Big Macs and credit cards. I mean, it was a hoot, but it was. Cause it was so absurd in our minds. And now if you went into one and they didn't take a card, it would be absurd to you. Or paying at the pump. We didn't pay at the pump. You went inside and gave them money. And all of these things that have reduced friction and make it easier for the consumer to spend more. But easy payments were in the newspaper in 1966, and easy payments are on Amazon prime right now. And so that hasn't really changed. There's always been a. A tendency to try to get rich quick in real estate with nothing down. Real estate, that's not a new thing on TikTok. That's an old song with a new remix. And bitcoin is nothing new. It's a new thing, but the driver of it and the complete illogical passion, passionate hate of anyone who questions bitcoin, My hate mail on bitcoin goes for days, but. And, you know, George Camel's got it nailed. He said bitcoin is, you know, it's Mary Kay for young men. I mean, they just get. They get so angry if you're not gonna join their little thing. And, man. And so. But that's not new. That's not new. It's defending this edgy position I'm taking to get rich quick. And that's happened for 30 years on all kinds of different things. But now today, it's bitcoin.

[Carrie Newhoff]

When you hear callers today, and you hear dozens of them every week because we had a lot of leaders listening. What are some of the things that every church leader, every business leader who cares about their staff, cares about their congregation should have on their radar? It's like here the. You know, you got the baby steps, they haven't changed, et cetera, et cetera, but two or three things that they can just be coaching people on. Because as a boss, Dave, I find if I hire someone in my 20s, I kind of have, even though we're not related, a dad hat where it's like, oh, actually, here's some life advice. Here's how to write an email. Here's how you approach people. Oh, don't do that with your finances. I'm doing a lot more of that than I did 20 years ago. So what are the two or three things every leader should keep in mind when they're coaching young people or people on finance?

[Dave Ramsey]

It's funny. We did a little piece of research on the state of personal finance, a study on it, and what we found is what we've always known, that when a pastor stands up in front of a congregation, a leader stands up in front of a group of, you know, 500 team members, either one that, you know, we forget that you're actually looking at. Eight out of ten of them are living paycheck to paycheck. Wow. You drive down the average street, eight houses look good and have too much month left at the end of the money. And that tells us that the average stinking car payment in America today is 600 and something dollars. You invest that in your 401k. Those of us that are old, we know that becomes $5 million. So I hope you like the car. But instead, we're still. And that's a joke that's 25 years old. The only thing that changed was the car payment amount, you know, but it's still the same. You stand up in front of that congregation, and they got on their Sunday Best they're in church and they're smiling and they're raising their hands and praising God and they're broke. And then we wonder why they don't tithe, why they don't give. They don't have any money, that's why. And so we know that when, when you can assist them from your position of leadership, whether it's a company owner or a pastoral situation, whatever it is, you can assist them by giving them these life skills that we've been working on for 30 years, that it does change everything. It really, really does. And so, for instance, we've had this program where the whole church goes through Financial Peace University. And what we see is the following year that giving is up 13%. Five years later, it's up almost 50%. Because they weren't not giving because they didn't know to give. No, they weren't not giving because they're greedy or selfish. No, they weren't giving cause they were broke and. Cause they're gonna choose. Take care of the light bill before your little pet thing you wanna do over there with the children's ministry. It's really way down the list beyond the light bill. And they're gonna pay the light bill, they're gonna pay their car payment and they're gonna pay their student loan and they're gonna pay their. And the borrower is slave to the lender. And Jesus said it's to masters. And so if you can get all the masters out of their life and they got one left, Jesus. It sets them up to win. And it's a mathematical, it's an arithmetic thing. And yet they, we, we forget that because it's not us today. Maybe, maybe it was us in our 20s, maybe it was us in our 30s. It could be you today, if you're listening to us right now. But more than likely you're in better shape. And you're. You forget that 8 out of 10 of these people you're looking at are broke. They make good money, but they are broke. And they don't know how they're gonna retire. And they don't know how their kid's gonna go to college. And they don't know how they're gonna pay for Christmas. And they don't have a plan. I mean, and to align them with a scriptural set of principles that what the Bible says sets them free is pretty incredible. It's fun thing to watch. And I don't get tired of doing it. I don't get tired of doing it. So, you know, I'll just throw in a plug. Our guys put this in front of me. Bring financial peace to your church by going to fpu.com leader and you can learn about this stuff. But I'll just turn it. Turn it into an infomercial for you here. Sorry about that. But this is stuff that I really have done my whole life. And we're now getting far enough along that we've also built dashboards so the pastor can actually see the number of the amount of debt paid off and the amount of money saved by the congregation while they're going through this class.

[Carrie Newhoff]

That's incredible.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so they can see the ROI on the thing. And we're now at. They sent it to me. $100 million turnaround in the last six months of 20, 24 on those dashboards. That much money saved and. Or paid off in churches, teaching FPU on the dashboards. We don't know the ones that didn't put it on the dashboard what it is. But the ones that are doing that new tool we built in six months, we're at $100 million turnaround.

[Carrie Newhoff]

$100 million. That's a lot.

[Dave Ramsey]

These are believers. This changes the cause of Christ.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You put $100 million back in God's economy instead of chase what's in your wallet. Come on.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I mean, Dave, I love the passion. You know what? And thank you for being so open and transparent about that season of breaking in your life. It's connected a few dots for me, and I think for a lot of us leaders, we go to a place of desperation. If we go back to that place of breaking, God said to me, I had a Prof. In seminary. It was such a random thing. And, I mean, I was raised Presbyterian, so it's the opposite of prophetic. But he came to me, put his hand on my shoulder. He looked at me. We were just talking about the weather, sports, whatever. And he goes, carrie, God's really going to use you. But before he uses you, he's going to break you. And that was it. And I'm like, what was that like? And I look at.

[Dave Ramsey]

I kind of hope half of that is true.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Exactly. You know, Dave, if I had a fender bender, I was like, you know what? Maybe this is the breaking. I gotta go get that fixed. But no, it was like it was that breaking almost 20 years ago. 20 years ago next year. And God has done so many things, and I see he broke you, but look at the passion that's still there 32 years, 35 years after that breaking. And I think for A leader who's in a season where they're being broken right now. Hang on, hang on. You don't even know what the story is. You have no idea what the story is.

[Dave Ramsey]

The only thing good about the valley is it's fertile.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Dave, I can't thank you enough. Really looking forward to seeing more of you this year. Thank you so much for being with leaders today. So the URL fpu.

[Dave Ramsey]

Let me get it right here. Fpu.com leader got it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

All right, we'll send people there. Till next time, Dave, thank you so much.

[Dave Ramsey]

Appreciate you, Carrie. Be good, brother.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, next episode we have John Ortberg. If you want more on what Dave and I talked about, though, head on over to the show [e-mail] Episode 707. Really happy to share those with you.

[Podcast Announcer]

They're absolutely free.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And John and I are going to talk about the spiritual power of personal inadequacy, what the church can learn from alcoholics. Yeah, I'll tell you, you guys love it when John's on the pod. You're going to enjoy next week's conversation again. If you haven't subscribed, please do. Also coming up, Jenny Catron, Craig Groeschel, Mark Clark, Annie F. Downs, Mark Sayers, and a whole lot more. Hey, thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow the podcast. Subscribe, by the way, on YouTube, we also do video versions of like 99% of these. Helps us get amazing guests, helps bring you great content each week. And thank you so much for listening. Leave us a rating and review. Maybe share it with a friend if this really helped you. And we'll catch you next time. I hope our conversation today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.

[Podcast Announcer]

Hey, before we go, pastors, I know.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How hard it can be to keep.

[Podcast Announcer]

Your sermons fresh and relevant, especially when you are preaching week after week after week after week. So whether you're hitting writer's block or.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You'Re in a rush trying to put.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Carrie Newhoff]

Actually, I just totally revised it.

[Podcast Announcer]

After decades of preaching, I've simplified my sermon prep into a series of steps and reminders. Now updated, they're engaging, relevant, memorable, and ready for preaching in Today's culture. It's 10 simple prompts with examples that you can start using as early as today for next Sunday. So start transforming your preaching. Visit preachingcheatsheet.com, get your new copy for free. Even if you downloaded this a year ago or so, we've had 40,000 church leaders download it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's updated.

[Podcast Announcer]

Check it out preachingcheatsheet.com to download your copy absolutely free.