← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 709 | How to Tell Whether Your Culture is Healthy, The Power of Culture in Getting Next Generation Talent, And Discovering Your Blind Spots As a Leader with Jenni Catron
01:05:14
Culture expert Jenni Catron joins the podcast to discuss the signs to look for that tell you whether your church or company culture is healthy or toxic. Plus, she shares the power of culture in retaining and attracting young talent and how to discover...
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- [00:01]
A
The Art of Leadership Network. They highly respected the character of their executive leaders. They highly respected the character of their executive leaders. They did not trust their decision making. They didn't trust their competency.
- [00:20]
B
Welcome to the Cary Newhoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. And I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, today we're going to talk about culture. And I know you're probably going, oh, okay, yeah. But you know what? You've been impacted by this. You've been impacted by bad culture. You are trying to attract next generation team members to your team. Guess what? They hate toxic culture. And you've got blind spots as a leader. So I go through all of that with Jenny Catherine today. She is a culture expert and leadership expert, author, speaker, dedicated to empowering leaders to cultivate healthy churches and thriving opportunities. She's a speaker CEO of the Foresight Group. She consults organizations on leadership, team culture, and team health. And she's got decades of experience. We also get into, you know, her marketplace experience before she joined the church world, what she learned in the music industry in Nashville, and a whole lot more. She's got a brand new book called Culture a framework for helping your team grow, thrive and be unstoppable. I think you're really gonna love this. And I think culture is a game changer. And really, as a leader, a senior leader. I've been a senior leader for over 30 years. You are responsible for the culture. Hey, we're going to talk about all that today. Welcome to those of you who are joining us for the first time or one of the first times on the podcast. We're really delighted to welcome you and, you know, maybe, maybe you're incorporating us into your workout or your walks, your rides, whatever you're doing. We are glad to be along for the journey. And my goal here is to take you behind the scenes to ask the questions you would ask if you sat down with Jenny Catron and got an hour with her and try to bring those concerns to the top leaders on your behalf. So that's what we're doing on this podcast. Really glad to have you along. And I can't wait to jump into my conversation with Jenny Catron. And now a quick word from one of our partners. And now to today's conversation with Jenny Catron. Jenny, it's good to have you back.
- [02:18]
A
Welcome, Carrie. I am always so grateful for time with you. And when we get to do be on the podcast, it's just always a pleasure and a great conversation. So thanks for having Me.
- [02:29]
B
So I want to go back to a conversation you and I had just in some of our off mic interactions a couple years ago. I forget exactly the timeline. It could have been five years ago, could have been two years ago where you said, I think I really need to niche down on something and focus my company on something. You pick culture. Why did you pick culture?
- [02:50]
A
Yeah, gosh, that's a great question. And kind of to your point, because I sat in an executive pastor seat for so many years, I could kind of do a lot of things, particularly on the ministry side, but I began to just dig a little deeper. Leadership has always been a passion of mine. You know that. But I was reflecting on some of the different experiences of my journey. And Carrie, I don't know if I've told you this story, but back when I worked in the music business, I. That was my first job out of college. And it was a fantastic experience. Like, great, great environment, great culture, great leaders, great team. We were achieving huge goals. We were, you know, aligned, effective, like working hard, like just a phenomenal experience. And then a handful of years in, they merged us with another division of the company. And overnight my experience went from absolutely amazing to horrific, just to awful.
- [03:48]
B
Wow.
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A
And I remember just kind of. I was in my late 20s at that point, and I was just swirling. Like, I was just like, how is it that I have the same job, the same job title, and I am having a completely different experience at work? And so I stayed for about a year just because one of my leaders begged me to try, you know, to try to merge with the merger. And I just couldn't do it, Carrie. Like, I just was like, my heart is not in this. I am not thriving. I'm not enjoying my work. And at that time, simultaneous to that was me being invited to go on staff at Crosspoint Church in Nashville. And so I'm kind of going through this whole, you know, process of praying through this, you know, move from the corporate world to ministry world and navigating all of that. And when I decided to take the job at Crosspoint, I thought, I am now in a seat where I have influence over the experience this team is going to have. So I was employee number five. We were growing rapidly. I knew it was going to be a growing team, it was a growing church. And I thought, I am now in the seat where the experience and the environment that employees have, volunteers have, our congregants have, are going to be influenced by what I do as a leader. And that was probably my first realization of the Fact that culture matters, that the experience we create as leaders really matters. And so I would say that's where the seed was planted. So back to our conversation. When you asked me that, where we talked about that a couple years ago, I think that I began to reflect on some of those moments in my leadership journey. And I realized that the places where I came most alive was when I was working with a team that was just, just a phenomenal team, where you were energized, you were engaged, you were committed, you knew the mission, you were, you were just 100% in. And those were the teams I wanted to be a part of, and that's what I wanted to help create.
- [05:44]
B
So when you look back at the merger when you were in your twenties in the music industry, what was that? The culture, Was it a bad boss? All of the above. Some of the above. Like what happened to shift your experience so rad?
- [05:59]
A
It was, I would say it's the culture, but culture is led by leaders. So even the framework that I've designed is called lead culture because it is dependent on leaders. John Maxwell says everything rises and falls on leadership. And so the culture is only as strong as the leader who's leading it. And again, everybody's influencing culture, but your leaders have disproportionate influence. So when I think about that, we did have a major shift in some of the, my, I would say my department leaders, and they had a very different set of values. What was important to them and what was distinctly different is that the team that I had been a part of originally, again, high commitment, strong unity, clarity of vision and goals. And the new team was much more territorial. There was a competitive spirit between everybody. There was just this kind of animosity and just lack of respect for your coworkers. Just completely different. I mean, again, we were owned by the same parent company, but we had two different divisions ultimately led by different leaders and a set of. We had the same corporate values, but the values that were guiding the day to day behavior were different.
- [07:14]
B
So on paper it was the same.
- [07:16]
A
Yeah.
- [07:17]
B
Can you, can you get a little more practical? And if you need to switch examples, go ahead. But I think a lot of the time leaders, and you have my. Mostly leaders listening to this conversation, watching this conversation. We're blind to the culture we create. We just assume it's either written down or it's not written down. But everything's cool, man. Everything's awesome. I'm awesome. Everybody's happy to work here. That's not true. So in your 20s, what was demotivating to you?
- [07:45]
A
Sure, sure. I think what was demotivating, particularly in that example, was a leader who was kind of disconnected. So when we did that, my first, first example, the leader of that division is still a friend to this day. I mean still somebody that I talk to with regularity.
- [08:06]
B
So pre merger, your boss from years ago is still a friend today?
- [08:10]
A
Yeah, the boss who hired me at 21 years old and high belief, high commitment, threw me in the deep end. Is still a friend to this day. And I mean that just speaks volumes. Cause I haven't worked in that industry for a few years. Let's say 25 maybe, maybe not quite 25, but at least 20 years. It's been 20 years since then. And, and then the division that we merged with, I couldn't tell you those leaders names. Like I mean I would have to actually really go back and I stayed a year. Carrie. So like, but like, I mean first recall, I can't tell you the name of who led my department in that era. I'm sure if I think for a minute it'll come back to me. But I think what was discouraging is they didn't. And again this was a merger. So mergers have uniquenesses to them. So they inherited a team that they didn't hire. So in their defense, the leaders of that division were handed a team, including myself, that they didn't pick. They were kind of handed to them. But as the employee coming into that team, I didn't, I felt kind of dismissed. I didn't feel valued, I felt second rate to the rest of the team. Right. So there's some nuance there because of the merger dynamics that probably made that particularly complicated. However, I will say that there are so many organizations where we do some kind of merger. If it's a, you know, a church that's multi site and there's a church across town that's merging with your church, that's a massive culture. That's a culture inflection point. And as leaders we have to be conscious of what is the experience we're creating for those teams. Both the existing team, the team that's merging in the congregations on both sides. So there's a nuance even to mergers that again is a culture inflection point.
- [10:10]
B
So how do you define culture? Seth Godin says culture is people like us do things like this.
- [10:16]
A
Right.
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B
Which is like an interesting way to look at it. What is your take when you talk about lead culture? What do you mean?
- [10:25]
A
Yeah, I love Seth's. Seth's Definition is a great one from a. Just. Yeah. That people like us do things like this. And you quickly know, okay, what does that look like? It's a quick litmus test. The definition of culture that I work with is clarity of who we are and how we work together to achieve our mission. So there's three really key statements there that if you don't mind, I'll just break down really quickly. Clarity of who we are is that sense of, do we know our mission, our vision, our purpose as an organization? Most of us are pretty locked in on that. But then the how we work together is how the beliefs, the behaviors, the stories, the things that shape how the team interacts. Whether that's staff, team, volunteer, team, but the people carrying out the work. The how we work together is do we have an agreed upon set of values, beliefs, and behaviors that define how we work together? And the third piece is important because it's to achieve the mission. Because we're not just a social club. You know, I think sometimes that's where we get stuck on culture. Because we think culture is just the perks and the fun stuff. And, you know, but it's actually that clarity of. Clarity of who we are, how we work together ultimately to achieve a mission. Because we have. There's a goal that we're rallying around, there's a mission that we're trying to accomplish together. And so that's my. My definition of culture.
- [11:48]
B
So talk to the leader who says, hey, we got a mission statement. I don't have any prescribed defined cultural values like you hear about in all these leadership things. So how do I know what my culture is? How. How can. Because I think culture is often a blind spot for sure what we think. I'm sure those. Those first bosses of yours thought they.
- [12:09]
A
Were awesome, of course, and they were probably wonderful people. They just were not aware of the experience they were creating.
- [12:16]
B
I worked in a terrible culture When I was 23, I worked for a government agency. And every single stereotype about government you can imagine was true, was true steroids. I mean, it was so demotivating. I got reprimanded. And the reason I got reprimanded is they pulled me aside and he said, look, you've been here for a month. He says, you need to slow down. He says, first of all, you're gonna be out of a job, a summer job. You'll be out of a job by the 4th of July. Secondly, you're making us all look bad. Cause we don't do much around here, and you're hustling. And, like, literally, that was what my boss. That's what I got in trouble for.
- [12:57]
A
That's amaz. Oh, so telling, though.
- [13:01]
B
So demotivated it was. You know, I was 23, and of course, I'm just like, well, what am I supposed to do? It just killed me. But that was a culture. That was a culture, and it was caught, not taught.
- [13:15]
A
The sad part of that is it easily will frame your view of work. Right. Like, my first, you know, eight years in the music business was with that division of the company that was absolutely amazing. And I thought, you know, when we went through the merger, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, what has happened? Because those first years shaped my belief about what teams should feel like. And so I was totally spoiled. Like, totally spoiled. But if you, like, if that was like, one of your first work experiences, and you're like, okay, so we don't do anything. That's how you succeed. Like that. I mean, what an experience.
- [13:54]
B
Like, oh, yeah. And, you know, there was no cultural values other than. I'm sure now they have them. But, you know, but. But the de facto culture was, we're lazy. Nobody works hard. Don't make anybody look bad. Don't try. And that's the opposite of what I am. I'm like, I'd rather die than work in a place like that.
- [14:15]
A
Work in a place like that.
- [14:16]
B
So, you know, to the leader who is saying, I don't have any cultural values defined, how can they tell what their culture is? What is a litmus test?
- [14:26]
A
Yeah, that's so good. And, you know, like you mentioned, we have a culture. Whether we acknowledge it or not, it's there. There's an experience that your team is having. To your point, it's not as good as we think it is as the leader. Like, that's just the painful truth that we have to acknowledge is that the experience we're having is typically not the same experience the rest of the team are having because we have more influence and agency over our. And so, you know, again, if you're in senior leadership or you're leading up a department or a team. So first of all, it's that starting point of just that awareness and acknowledgement that, gosh, I'm. It might feel great to me, but I can't be guaranteed. This is the experience for everybody else. So starting with that. Starting with just a little bit of humility there to go. I just. I need to be curious enough about the experience of my team. And here's what I. I'LL pause on this for a half second. Carrie. I deeply believe every leader, especially we talk to a lot of ministry leaders through your podcast. Like, we care about people, right? Like, I mean, that's the heart of culture, is people are the point. That's. At the end of the day, that is the conviction for me is that people are the point, that culture. Another way to say culture is it's stewardship of people in pursuit of the mission. Right. Like, we're entrusted with this team of people that are assembled with us to achieve this mission right now. And so our heart as leaders, and you and I have talked about this before, but I deeply believe that leadership is sacred work, that we're changing and affecting the lives of the people that are part of our team day in and day out. I know you do this with your team because I've had the chance to spend time with your team. And I mean, you deeply love your team and want the best for them, and you expect a lot out of them, too. Like, your team's a hardworking, make it happen, get it done team. They hustle, they hustle, but they know that you want their best. So I'm gonna assume every leader listening is thinking that way. Like, they, they, they love their team. They want their team to be thriving. And so I think it has to start with a acknowledgement and humility of, gosh, as much as that is my heart. Is that their experience? Right. It's just that willingness.
- [16:43]
B
So how do I tell? Like, because we have defined cultural values, I think we're doing a great job. I go through it with them. We just did team retreat. I'm like, which of our values are really speaking to you? What are we living out? What are we not living out? But how do I know what the real state of the nation is?
- [17:00]
A
Yeah. So first of all, anywhere where you can create mechanisms for feedback on the employee experience is important. So I'm an advocate of. I love annual surveys just to hear how are you doing, what's working, what's not working, and there's myriad of ways to facilitate that. But don't do it when it feels broken. Do it as a rhythm of organizational life where you're just saying annually, bi, annually, whatever rhythm you want to do. I love annually that you just say you facilitate a survey to get feedback. That's a starting point. Additionally, good one on one. So if you have good organizational rhythms where we're doing one on one meetings, we have performance reviews and goals. The more clearly you've defined, and I think this Gets at your question a little bit is that if you haven't defined the culture, it's hard to get feedback on it. Now you can do the survey and if you're curious of like, how is everybody? What's the experience? You might do a little focus group with some staff. Don't pick all your favorites who are going to tell you what you want to hear. Pick people from throughout the organization that are going to bring different perspectives and then just say, hey, what do you think is important to us here based upon how we work? What do you think's important to us here? My favorite is to bring the brand new person to SNAP who's only been there 30 or 60 days and say, okay, based upon your first couple of months, what do you think is important to us based upon what you've experienced? And that is telling. That will create just a lot of awareness of. We say we value ownership, but everybody does the bare minimum. You know, we say that we value excellence, but we're kind of doing, you know, we're kind of just phoning it in most of the time. Yeah. Or we say that we value work, life, balance. But I see my leader here until 8pm every night. Or, you know, I mean, you fill in the gap, right? But it, and I will say this, Carrie, the, the more unhealthy your culture it is, the harder it is to get the truth of it. Because oftentimes people will be afraid to actually tell you what the real experience is. And that's where then typically you want a third party to help start drawing that out. Because it's sometimes quite difficult to get to the truth of your culture, the more unhealthy it is. I don't know if you found that to be true.
- [19:32]
B
I think that's true because people are afraid to speak out against toxic leadership or they're afraid of losing their job. And to that end, I totally get it. We got a lot of large church leaders listening, large business leaders listening, who could send out a survey to 30, 50, 300 staff. But the majority of businesses and churches are small, three or four people. So where it's casual and relational, where you all fit around the same table for lunch and it's very relational. How do you get that kind of honest feedback? Cause a survey, it's gonna be. Well, I know that was Jenny who said that. I can tell, I can tell by the way, by her sentence, you know that that's her. So how do you get that from a small team?
- [20:15]
A
From a small team. I mean, I would start with Just a conversation around the table. And if, you know, and this was a lot of emotional intelligence on your part as the leader to be humble enough to say, hey, I've noticed this, this, and this. And I'm guessing that our culture isn't as good as I would hope it is. Can you tell me more about your experience? You know, can you tell me what stands out to you?
- [20:40]
B
So maybe just assume it's not perfect. Don't go, hey, we have a great culture here. What do you guys think?
- [20:46]
A
And they're all gonna nod and say, yes and tell you what you want to hear.
- [20:49]
B
Yeah, okay, keep going.
- [20:51]
A
Typically, right. But then I think the opportunity there would also be find somebody trusted. Maybe it's an elder, maybe it's a business leader in your church who is. Has good, you know, does some work in this area and say, hey, would you. Would you do a focus group with our staff just to kind of hear what's good, what's not so good, and, you know, in asking a few questions about, hey, what are my favorite questions? And I borrowed this from somebody and I can't remember whom. I can come back and find it. But the question is, what do we look like at our best? Right. What do we look like at our best? That's a fun, fun way to start a conversation because we all want to brag about what we look like at our best. Let's talk about a highlight for us as a team. What did we look like? What were we doing? What did we notice? Okay. And what does it look like when we're not at our best? And then we start kind of unpacking that a little bit. Okay, which one of those is more true most of the time? So that in some ways that kind of opens up the conversation without it feeling super personal, or we're saying, hey, what do we look like at our best as a team? So those are some fun conversations or questions that start to open the conversation. But again, oftentimes, a third party can be a really helpful facilitator of that.
- [22:11]
B
So you've been around organizations with great cultures, incredible cultures. I've been at Chick Fil A headquarters. I know they don't call it headquarters a few times this year. Really blown away by their culture. And anybody who's been to a Chick Fil a and see 17 year olds treating people like ladies and gentlemen realizes that there's something in the water supply there that's really, at least, I think, admirable. What sets organizations that have incredible cultures apart? What are they doing differently than people with mediocre or poor cultures.
- [22:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:48]
B
Feel free to name names because we're talking about good, Good organizations.
- [22:51]
A
For sure. Good organizations. The big thing for me carry is clarity. I think clarity is a chief indicator of the health of a culture. So if we even just talk about Chick Fil a for a minute, there is such clarity on what to expect from Chick Fil A, both by the employee and by us as the customer. The cascading effect is that we have an expectation. If somebody doesn't say, it's my pleasure. Somewhere in our experience at Chick Fil A, we're like, something's off.
- [23:20]
B
What's off?
- [23:21]
A
Something's off. You know, like, that's not. Because we know that is not their culture. So. And that's just one of a myriad of things, things that they do that they provide incredible clarity about what it means to succeed there. And that's what I find true of organizations that have great cultures are really clear of that definition. Who are we and how do we work together to achieve the mission? Like, we are super clear about the values, beliefs, behaviors that guide how we interact. We're clear about what we're trying to accomplish together. We're clear about everybody's role and how they can contribute and how we win together. The goals, the responsibilities, all of those things are hyper clear. And that's the thing that, to me, Carrie, unlocks cultures, is a lot of times we think culture is just this relational, fluffy stuff, when in actuality, a lot of the clarity that comes through structure and roles and responsibilities and goals and our values is the thing that actually helps team members confidently contribute. Like, you quickly know. Like that example you had of the job in college, right?
- [24:29]
B
Government job.
- [24:30]
A
Yeah, the government job. Like, you clearly knew what. How they work. And you were like, this is not me. Like, this is not me. Like, it was clear. Like, that's a bad thing.
- [24:41]
B
I gotta get out of here. I gotta get outta here.
- [24:43]
A
They were your boss in that case, was clear about their culture. This is not, you know, this is how we work or not how we work. So the organizations that are hyper clear about. And you've named this a couple of times in our conversation so far, but most leaders leave culture to chance because they intuitively just kind of feel it. Like, it's like, I kind of get it. I know how we do things here. But again, by the time you've surpassed a handful of team members, it's starting to get fuzzy because not every. They can't all read your mind. They don't all have proximity with you every day, day in and day out. And especially now with hybrid work dynamics and things where we're not in proximity to the way we used to be. Leaders have to get hyper clear about how do we define healthy culture here? Like, what is really important to us here? What are those values? What are the beliefs? What are the behaviors? What are the things that are distinctive to us? And then the clarity of those organizational dynamics that helps me know as an employee, here's how I can show up and win. Because that's what every employee is asking is like. Like, hey, I'm here because I want to help us achieve this mission, and I want to know how to do that. I want to know how I can succeed in helping contribute to this. And anywhere that's fuzzy, you start to get some disengagement and disconnection. I probably went further than you asked.
- [26:07]
B
No, that's great. To your point on clarity, the backstory I've gotten from Chick Fil A executives never met Truett Cathy, but have spent a lot of time at Chick Fil A. They borrowed My Pleasure from the Ritz Carlton and Horst Schultz. And Horst Schultz said he thought it was not the right thing to do because Ritz Carlton's a luxury brand. Chick Fil A is a quick service restaurant. But Truett was really taken by it. And he told people to start substituting my pleasure for your welcome. And it didn't take. It didn't take. And then he had to repeat it. And I think it was, if I've got the story right, three years in a row. And finally he's like, no, I am serious. We are banning you're welcome, and we're all gonna say my pleasure. And now it's spread across whole industries like so many non Chick Fil A places say my pleasure. But that was intentionality. And his first time apparently was not effective.
- [27:05]
A
I've heard that same story, and I love it. Yeah, I love it so much because I think it's also a reminder. One of the convictions I hold around culture is it's patient and persistent work. And I think that's the challenge, right? Because typically leaders are fast moving. We things to happen quickly. And the reality of culture is that, you know, some. Some data will tell you it takes three to five years to shift your culture. Right? Like, so whatever you're experiencing today, again, it depends on how big of a shift you need to make. But it's three to five years. And that plays out in the Chick Fil A story, in that Truett Wanted to change the culture of the organization to say my pleasure instead of you're welcome. And after three years, it's still not working right. And he has to, like, continue to just pound that drum. Hey, this is who we are. This is how we work together to serve our customers. So I just think. I think that's noteworthy in that. Shifting a culture or committing to something that is very distinctive about who you are. That's a very distinct thing about the Chick Fil a culture. But there's something like that in every one of our organizations. For one of the churches that I led, we were hyper committed. And this was, you know, 15 years ago, we were hyper committed to community groups. And it was the almost the singular thing that we talked about from the stage. Like, we. Because we were. We were vigilant about not having a zillion announcements. And so we were. But we were committed. We wanted 80% of our attendees in a small group, like, and so that's a big number, right? But that was like, that was core to the culture we wanted to create. We wanted people in community. We wanted them connected to one another. And so we would talk about that nearly every weekend from stage. And my favorite thing when I could tell that it was actually in the water, so to speak, was I would meet somebody, the grocery store or something, and they might recognize me. Cause I was in front a lot. And they would say, hey, we just started. You know, we've been attending for like six months, and we love it and blah, blah, blah. But we're not in a small group yet. And I loved it because they knew that was our culture. They knew that's how we work together here. And so those are the kind of things of, like, that definition of what's really important to us, what's really core to who we are and how we live out our mission. And then we have to be talking about it constantly for it to really become true to who we are and for people to understand that expectation.
- [29:32]
B
So there's a good number of leaders listening who are in the senior seat who have control over culture. But there's also a good number of leaders who are like you in your late 20s after the merger, who are a victim of bad, bad culture, in other words. Like, hey, I'm not the senior leader. We got a bad culture here at our church. What advice do you have for people in the second chair, Third chair?
- [29:57]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:58]
B
Non senior leaders.
- [30:01]
A
I appreciate that so much because we get that question a lot because they're the ones most deeply feeling it and experiencing it. And also, I will note this, Carrie, I've had the privilege. I'm in a cohort right now with Barna, and we're doing some research on trends at work and some of the things that we're doing around that in that cohort right now, we're just looking at the different generations and how they engage. Work and culture matters significantly to younger generations. Part of that is that this is some of their first work experiences. Their work and life are integrated more than ever. You and I can remember when we didn't have little devices that. That fit in our pocket, and basically we had connection to the entire world at the Holt all the time. I remember having this big ginormous computer on my desktop at work, and I came in and I logged in and booted up, and I shut it down at the end of the night, and I went home. And I didn't typically talk to anybody from work or answer an email or a Slack message or anything until the next morning when I went back in and booted up the keyboard.
- [31:11]
B
It was almost like working at a factory where the machinery stayed at the factory, but you went home 100%. My time in law was like that. It was like if you brought a file home, you literally had to bring a manila file home, and nobody did it, because if you lost it, you were in big trouble.
- [31:25]
A
Big trouble.
- [31:26]
B
Big trouble.
- [31:27]
A
And so our generation, who are mostly in leadership right now, we still compartmentalize a little bit more. Not as much because we've learned to adapt to all those tools. But my point being, the younger generation, their entire life has been integrated, right? Like, they. I mean, they are digital natives. Everything is integrated for them. And so they are not looking to compartmentalize their life quite as much. So they want their work to be fulfilling. They want their work to be meaningful. They want to be a part of cultures that actually inspire and engage them. And again, I think all of us have wanted that, but I think they prioritize it more because they're not looking to compartmentalize quite as distinctly as we did. Everything's much more integrated to them. So culture's a big deal to them. So to get back to your question to that younger leader who has more influence rather than authority in the organization, I would start getting curious and asking your leaders, hey, tell me more about what you hope for. What do you aspire to? What do you think we look like at our best? Right? Because it's a little bit of like. Like, in your case, your boss came to you and was like hey, this is how we do things. And you're not in alignment with that, which is, but it's the reverse of that of you as the younger leader going to or younger individual, younger employee going to your leader and saying, hey, can you tell me more about like what do we look like at our best? What are the values that guide us? What's really important to you that you think I should know? I would go from a curiosity standpoint so that you can get clarity on if you don't feel like the culture is great. You want to make sure you know what the leader aspires to. Because if what the leader aspires to is not what you like find fulfilling, well then you have a question to determine whether that's a culture you want to stay a part of. I'm going to guess that in most cases that leader is going to tell you something that they aspire to that you probably 90% agree with and then looking for. Because as you show interest in them, it ideally, hopefully they're going to show interest in learning what the experience is like for you. So what I'm suggesting is open a two way conversation where you want to learn from your leader what's important, how do we succeed here? How can I help contribute in a meaningful way? And ideally that's going to open up some conversation for that leader to say, okay, so tell me, is that what you experience? And maybe you can offer that up again with good emotional intelligence. You can say, you know what, what I really want, what you're describing, but can I tell you a little bit of what I'm experiencing? Because it, it is likely that the leader isn't aware of the, the experience in the day to day. Now don't go in there with like, you know, guns blazing, like ready to like, you know, point out how everything's awful. But I think if you go with curiosity and then you create a conversation where maybe you're able to share, that's a starting point. The other thing I would say is just model what you hope to be true. Like if you want collaborative team members, collaborate with others. If you want better communication, be a better communicator yourself. Like whatever you think would enhance and make your team better, start doing it because it's likely that you're gonna help influence the culture with those things.
- [34:49]
B
Maybe your boss will reprimand you for that, or maybe not. We'll see.
- [34:52]
A
And that'll be telling.
- [34:54]
B
That'll be telling. So do you think one of the reasons that younger workers are so sensitive to Culture is because they see the choice that they have. In other words, when I was starting out, it was like, oh, you're lucky to get a job. Oh, here's a law firm, here's a church that would take me. We didn't have Googleable. It was kind of like googleable options. We just didn't have them. And now a lot of leaders who listen to this are younger. They're gonna be like, yeah, that's all we've ever had. Right. I met my wife at law school and it was like I was 23, she was 25. And it was one of those things where I'm like, oh, yeah, she's the best I've met. But I didn't think that I had 4 billion options. And I'm kind of glad I didn't. Do you know what I mean?
- [35:40]
A
Yeah, Decision fatigue, that's way too much paralysis.
- [35:43]
B
A choice like, come on. But if it's like, okay, if this isn't good, I'm not going to work for you, Carrie. I'm going to go work for Jen and I'll just hop over. Whether that's realized or not. Is that a factor at all, do you think? Today's episode is brought to you by glu. You know, with summer winding down, it's officially back to church season. A crucial window to reconnect with your community and reignite momentum at your church. And Glue plus gives you everything you need to hit the ground running this fall. So here's what you can do. You can send texts and emails personally to invite people back and keep them engaged all through the autumn. You can create custom groups like parents, volunteers or new visitors and automate follow ups for prayer requests, first time guests or events. You can be more communicative than ever so no one and nothing falls through the cracks. You can use AI powered insights to understand your community's needs and tailor your outreach accordingly. And you can welcome new families into your area with a new mover program. So thousands of churches are seeing real impact with Glue Plus. How do you get on board? Well, join them today@glue.com plus. That's G L O O.com P L.
- [36:49]
A
U S. I think that's a big factor. I think they're much more aware again because of their exposure to so many different opportunities. They're not as afraid of. In fact, they will leave a job even without another job if they are not happy in that role again because they've grown up in an economy that's been strong and healthy and so they've had options, but then everything's at their fingertips. You know, it's like, they can. And the gig economy is bigger than it's ever been. So they're like, well, I'll just go create something if I can't find the type of environment I want to be in. So we could debate whether that's right or wrong or, you know, like, is going to play out the way they think it's going to play out. But I think you're exactly right. They. They know they have options, and they're not as afraid to take the chance. And because they've seen other opportunities, they've seen better experiences, they've seen things where they know culture can be better.
- [37:51]
B
Yeah. By the way, I think I made a really great choice in life.
- [37:54]
A
You did make a good choice.
- [37:57]
B
I need to say that I don't think 4 billion options would have made it an ounce better.
- [38:02]
A
No, you got the best one. She's fantastic.
- [38:05]
B
So, because there's so much of a talent war at churches, and we already talked about younger generations, like, there's a talent war for leaders in their 40s and 50s. There's a huge talent war for young leaders in their 20s and 30s. How much does culture play a factor in the talent deficit that so many churches are facing, in your view?
- [38:29]
A
I'm biased. I think it's a big factor. I think that, again, what we're finding is that people's tenure on any team is less than it's ever been. It's, you know, bordering on less than three years is the average tenure for somebody in a job.
- [38:45]
B
I did not know that. Seriously?
- [38:48]
A
Seriously.
- [38:49]
B
Whoa.
- [38:50]
A
So it is fascinating. We just. We don't stay in one place very long. And so I think. And this is why I think culture is so powerful, because, you know this, Carrie. You've led church teams. You're leading your team now. Like, the cost of turnover is exorbitant. Right. Like, it is. I mean, we estimate it's two to three times a salary to, you know, the repl. The replacement cost, so to speak.
- [39:13]
B
Right there. Because I knew that stat, but it wasn't until a few years ago I actually did the math on it, like, for real. So if you're paying someone $50,000 a year, I just want to amplify the point you're making.
- [39:26]
A
Yep.
- [39:27]
B
How much is it gonna cost you if somebody leaves? 100,000 to $150,000.
- [39:32]
A
Potentially. Yeah.
- [39:33]
B
Plus probably a higher salary for the person you just replaced them at.
- [39:37]
A
That's right. Yep.
- [39:39]
B
So that's a Six figure loss.
- [39:41]
A
That's right. Not to mention the pain on the rest of the staff, while especially cause again, a lot of the folks listening, our teams are not ginormous. And so it's hard to absorb when we lose somebody on the team, it's hard to absorb that other staff members have to pick up more responsibility. And so there's a toil there that's not even calculated into that figure. And so, yeah, it's just outrageously expensive to lose people. And so great cultures retain great talent, right? And part of this, Carrie, is the clearer you get about your culture, like who we are and how we work together to achieve our mission, the more definition you put around that, that then that starts to guide your interviewing, your hiring, your onboarding, your training, your performance review plans and systems. Like it starts to infiltrate everything you do so that you're reinforcing that culture at every point of an employee's journey with your organization. And then the, the, the goal being, hey, and we know not everybody stays for forever because sometimes people are called on to different things and we want to celebrate that. I'm not suggesting that we're trying to keep, keep people for forever, but what I am saying is that the clearer we are about culture and how purposeful we are in the hiring and interviewing process, the greater chance of getting the right fit, because a bad fit is also a really painful and expensive situation. The better chance we are of getting a right fit and the better chance we have of retaining them longer than that three year average. And that, you know. And so I wish I had this memorized, but there's a place in my upcoming book where I talk about kind of that spiral of if, you know, if we're not clear in our culture and we're not hiring, well, then we're not, you know, we just go in this vicious cycle of turnover, right? And it's hard to get out of that. But as soon as you reverse that, like you get the positive, you get the positive momentum of that. That in a nutshell, there's a way that I talk about it, I unpack it all, but I don't have it memorized to say it more succinctly.
- [41:50]
B
So let's talk about, no naming names, but examples of bad church culture that you've seen just so that we can read the mail. What would some examples. I want light bulbs to go on for listeners because I know I aspire to have a great culture. I also know I fall short. I also know that I have bad days. So what would some Examples of bad church culture or organizational culture be.
- [42:17]
A
Yeah, yeah. I love this question, and I want to comment just on what you just said. There. There's no perfect culture. So I also want to take that off the table is that there's no perfect culture because we're a bunch of messy humans trying to do it.
- [42:28]
B
And even on your team, you fall short sometimes, Jenny.
- [42:31]
A
Can you believe it? No, seriously, Carrie. There are days where I'm doing webinars and talks on this, and then I'm like, I mean, we have a wonderful team. I love, love, love my team. But we. I mean, but you have to work at it. Like, it's like, this is what we teach and what we preach. And yet it is like there are days that I'm like, guys, I know. I just did a talk on that. And I've got to actually apologize because I haven't done this well, I mean, it happens all the time. But here's a couple of things, a couple of specific stories from churches that I've worked with. There was one church that we were working with that we did a full staff survey, and we got really confusing data out of the survey. It told us that they loved their senior leader, but they didn't trust their executive team. And I was kind of curious. I mean, I wasn't kind of curious. I was very curious about it because it felt like it was competing with each other. Other. And as I dug in more, because then I did some focus groups and some did some additional work to try to make more sense of that data, what I found, Carrie, was here's the thing. They highly respected the character of their executive leaders. They highly respected the character of their executive leaders. They did not trust their decision making. They didn't trust their competency. And so there's something that I found that ultimately sabotage as a culture is they had high, high character leaders. And we'd always prefer that over anything else, of course. Right. So they had high leaders of high, high character, but those leaders were. Lacked some competency in decision making, organizational clarity. They were maybe a little slow sometimes to make changes that were necessary, like. And so high character, high relational, but they weren't executing on a competency level. And that was starting to really weigh their culture. So that was one that will often surprise, especially in ministry.
- [44:33]
B
Can I interject for a second? I want you to keep going, but aren't those always the people who are hardest to fire, too?
- [44:39]
A
Oh, really?
- [44:39]
B
Because they're the saints. They're wonderful. They've been here for 20 years, completely oh, and so we can't get rid of them because they're wonderful human beings.
- [44:49]
A
Yeah. And sadly, the rest of the team is going, why are we still. Why are we still doing this? Why are we still. You know. And again. But they feel conflicted because they're wonderful people. But the longer they let those issues go, the more it began to erode culture and it eroded trust because trust was the number one issue that was showing up in that organizational survey. And I was so, like, puzzled by it because they would tell me they trusted their senior leaders. But then trust was still the key issue, and that's where I began to parse it out, was that they trusted them as humans, their character and their integrity. They didn't trust their competency to make the right decisions, to make the right decisions at the right time, et cetera. So fascinating one, but I see that a lot play out.
- [45:36]
B
Okay, what other scenarios do you see play out?
- [45:39]
A
Another scenario that I see pretty often is organizations that are particularly ministry that are very siloed. So this will often happen in churches that have been around a good while. Lots of legacy, lots of history, lots of complexity to their ministry. And every ministry team just does their thing and they kind of run in their silos, but there's no collaboration. It's kind of every person for themselves. So then there's jockeying over resources and. And there's, you know, again, it's that kind of competitive, territorial thing that only bubbles up when they butt heads on something. But it becomes like a tension point in the organization. And what you lack, there is a collaborative spirit or collaborative nature across the organization. They're not on a shared mission. They're on mission for their individual departments or ministries. And eventually that catches up with you. Eventually that's going to become a problem. There was one organization that I was working with specifically where that was very much the case, but they were trying to move to multisite. Well, multisite brings so much complexity and requires unity and alignment and collaboration. And so it was a tangle to unpack all of that and help lead them forward because they all kind of wanted to do their own thing. So those are a few that come to mind right off the bat. But does that spark ideas for you from your perspective?
- [47:13]
B
Oh, yeah. And I've seen two hop, two cultures for the leader where whenever the leader says, everybody just responds.
- [47:21]
A
Yeah, that's a good.
- [47:22]
B
Whenever the preacher gets the sermon ready is when the production team gets the message, as opposed to, it was due last week. We're all waiting here or everyone has to be on standby Saturday just in case something happens at the last minute or a lack of fun in culture. I mean, cultures can be too fun and too culture. One of our values is have fun. Because I can be too serious sometimes and I hire serious people, and we have to remind ourselves to have fun. But I would always put someone who was fun in charge of fun.
- [47:54]
A
Yeah, that's good.
- [47:55]
B
All right, we'll do that. Let's talk about the peculiar relationship between compensation and culture. So, yeah, I guess a couple of questions under that. Let's start with this. Can you pay people enough that IT papers over your cultural deficiencies?
- [48:16]
A
No.
- [48:17]
B
No, you can't. All right.
- [48:19]
A
I don't think so.
- [48:20]
B
I'll give you a raise. I'll give you a raise. You're not gonna get a better job. It sucks here, but you're gonna get paid really well. That doesn't do. It doesn't.
- [48:28]
A
I mean, it depends on how handcuffed that individual is to the pay or their risk tolerance for leaving. So I think that. I mean, I think that always factors into it. But there's an interesting threshold of. One of the tools that I have in my framework is I call it the culture hierarchy of needs. So kind of based on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, there are just basic needs that we have that if they are not met, it's hard for us to fully engage as employees. And. And the first level of the hierarchy is just basic needs, much like Maslow's hierarchy of like, food, shelter, clothing. Well, in the employment scenario, it's like we need a competitive wage. Now, again, most of our listeners are ministry folks. I'm not talking about. We're trying to compete with corporate because we're never going to compete on the same level with corporate. But we want to make sure we are providing a fair wage for our employees.
- [49:29]
B
I've always thought in terms of living wage. What's the cost of living? How can you live indoors in this environment, have groceries and not go to bed sweating about money every night? That's a living wage you should do.
- [49:41]
A
That's right. And that's what you want to aim for. Because if they're. Every day they're wondering, can I, you know, am I going to put food on the table? Well, then they can't more deeply engage with work. Right. They're reduced to basic needs. So we want to make sure we are compensating fairly. We're giving cost of living and raises regularly. You know, like there's. There's Some basic things in there that are really important. There comes a point, however, where more money will not create greater alignment with the culture. Right. I was talking to a leader a couple weeks ago, and there was an individual on the team who's just. Just not super content. Right. Like, you know, it's one of those folks that you. You really want them to be on, you want them to be winning, you want them to be contributing, but for whatever reason, they're not. And this leader was like, well, do I just need to pay more? Like. And I began to look at. I was like, no, I think the compensation is actually appropriate and fair for the role. So to throw more money at it, I don't think is the solution. Like, I think, you know, and we did some good research on that of, like, is that person fairly competent competition compensated for the role that they're in? But I said, I think this is actually a culture alignment question. Are they really committed to who we are and how we work together to achieve our mission and. Or do they need clarity somewhere? Is there something in their job, roles and responsibilities that isn't clear and it's causing them to be frustrated and act out? So you start asking some questions to go, what is it that is keeping that individual from more deeply engaging? But rarely. I don't think money is the issue.
- [51:23]
B
Okay, so you can't buy your way out of a bad culture, but what happens? Let's flip it, because this is probably more commonly the case. A lot of churches might have a great culture, great hearts, wonderful people, but they pay very low.
- [51:37]
A
Right.
- [51:38]
B
What happens in that situation? Is your culture enough to keep people there?
- [51:43]
A
It might be enough to keep people there for a time, but they may eventually, just because of back to that basic needs level of the hierarchy. Like, if they are just fighting for survival, it is really hard for them to stay committed. Right. Like, eventually, that want to. Even though I love this team, I love these people, I love our mission. If I can't provide food for my family, then. And I realize that's an extreme response to that, but if.
- [52:16]
B
But I'll never buy a house. I can barely afford rent. I can't stay.
- [52:21]
A
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
- [52:24]
B
I don't know whether your research with the Barna cohort has unearthed anything like that, but how important is pay to Gen Z and younger millennials?
- [52:33]
A
It is because we have, and I don't have the data right in front of me. It is a factor, but it is not the primary factor for them. I think if I'm remembering this right, Carrie and I may have to go back to this, but I think one of the pieces of data, there were five factors that we were looking at related to particularly what keeps people engaged. And I think the compensation was very low. It was like four or five. It was. Of the five factors, it was one of the bottom ones. Purpose is more important to them. Training and development is more important to them. They want a pathway for growth. So that's also really interesting for younger generations is they want to know how to continue to grow and develop here. That's another thing that gets us in trouble sometimes in ministry, because you know what? We have one children's director, so we.
- [53:25]
B
Sit in that slot for 20 years, right?
- [53:28]
A
And so you have somebody coming up as a children's coordinator, and they're like, there's not gonna be an open seat for 20 years. What do I do with this? And so it's not that we. So the more that we're invested in their growth and development, even if their title isn't radically changing, but they know that there's a commitment for them to grow with the organization. So one of the things I have often told the ministry teams that I've been a part of is that there's only a handful of titles here. We're a church. We don't have 20 layers. We have three or four layers of hierarchy. And so we're not going to have a lot of different titles. But the scope of your role will change and grow as we're growing, and as you're growing, your scope and responsibilities are going to change. And so those are the conversations I want to be in as your leader is helping understand where do you want to grow, what's important to you? What are some skills you want to develop, and how can we help you do that, and how can that bring value to the ministry? And that might not mean a title change, but it might mean some responsibility change that might come with some pay adjustments along the way. But you're trying to map out, how can I make sure that they recognize that we're committed to their growth and development? And sometimes that often meant people would also. We'd develop them out because they'd outgrow us and they'd move on to something else. But you know what? They were so eager to help us replace talent because they valued our culture so much, right? So as much as you don't want everybody to move on and move out, when you've built a good culture, you've invested well in your team. Even when they do, they are a cheerleader and you've created a culture where great people want to be a part of it.
- [55:14]
B
So I've read. Had the privilege of reading, I think, endorsing your book Culture Matters, which has been great. I'll tell you, a lot of senior leaders are very visionary. Your book has incredible detail, like a framework, step by step, and you go through it. It's a feature, not a bug. I think it's excellent. If you want to know how to build a great culture, you got to read the book. It's fantastic. What would you say to the visionary leader, who is not much of a detail person, who wants to have a great culture?
- [55:47]
A
Yes. I love that you pointed that out, Carrie, because it's true. Like, I. I wrote the book recognizing that just like every other critical system in your organization, your culture needs a system. So it's essentially your culture operating system. And I'm saying, hey, you spend a ridiculous amount of time on your mission and vision, and you will hire people to help you draft that, and you'll spend off sites building it. So you spend time and resources to build your mission and vision. You build a strategic plan every two, five years, and you again, hire a consultant to come in and help you do all of that. But how many of you have a culture plan? Right. And in fact, data would tell us 90% of leaders believe culture matters, but only 25% of them have a plan. And so it's like, how come we don't have plans for arguably our greatest resource, the people who are going to help make the that mission happen? Right.
- [56:43]
B
And whether you like going to work or not, whether you're frustrated with your team or not.
- [56:47]
A
Exactly. Exactly. So to answer your question, what I would tell leaders, because I get it, I wrote the stinking framework, and I don't love implementing it because I'm more of a visionary and move on to the next big idea. But I did it. It was a discipline, Carrie. It was a result of. So this has been a book that has been 20 years in the making, because when I first went on staff at Crosspoint on the heels of. Of those two corporate experiences, and I got to Crosspoint, and I recognized, oh, I've got to help shape this experience. So that's when I began experimenting with what does it take and what do you do? Because it's not just the employee fund days and the staff perks. It's like, it's much more than that. So over the course of those 20 years, I've built out this framework. So it's rigorous, like it is intended to help you actually put a plan in place that that helps invest in and protect your culture. The answer to your question is that senior leader is likely not executing the strategic plan. They have another leader on their team who is the one who loves the nuts and bolts and is good at holding people accountable and leading through the day to day initiatives that make the plan happen. Same thing here is that you have to believe in it as the leader. You've got to believe that it matters. You've got to be committed to it. You've got to be involved at the right level. But you need somebody on your team to actually help build out the system and make sure we're running the game plan. And so that would be my encouragement is you don't need to execute everything. You need to find that it's a priority, that it's a key part of your ministry strategy. And then you need to find the team members who can actually help lead through it.
- [58:29]
B
And everybody breathed a big sigh of relief. That's good. No, because you're right. You can't delegate culture, but you can delegate the execution of a cultural plan. Exactly.
- [58:42]
A
Yeah. Yep, that's exactly right. And I have had leaders who were like, okay, can I just give that to hr? And I'm like, well, not exactly right. Like, I need you to believe in it. I need you to cast vision for it. I need you to be clear about what's important to you. Because that definition of culture has to cascade from the leader. Now, I've had situations in very large organizations. Willow Creek was one of these. In 2021, I walked the Willow Creek staff through the whole lead culture framework and we spent a year working through this plan. And you know, Dave Dummit had been there a year. He had a whole lot of things on his plate.
- [59:19]
B
Yes, he had a couple things.
- [59:20]
A
He had a few things going on so he couldn't sit in all of our culture meetings. Like, we had a culture team that was assembled to do the work. But he was brought into it as needed of like we needed because he believed in it. He endorsed, you know, me coming in and working with Tim Stevens, who was there at the time, and then the rest of the team. And so he gave it his thumbs up. It was part of the big strategic focus that he was doing in helping move the organization forward. And then he was just brought in at the right points along the way. And so you're not absent, but you also don't have to be in every, every detail.
- [59:58]
B
So switching gears entirely, you've Gone to hybrid publishing with this book, which I'm kind of intrigued. I mean, author's equity, I think you published with Maxwell, who just got into publishing. What was your experience like going the non traditional publishers route?
- [60:16]
A
Yeah, honestly, it's been a fantastic experience. So I will say, obviously John Maxwell has been a massive influence on my journey, but the Maxwell publishing team have been phenomenal. Oh, great. I mean, the hybrid publishing dynamic makes the publisher probably typically a little less invested in you because you're investing in yourself more than being given an advance to write a book like you are in traditional publishing. But I will say, just fantastic experience by way of being a part of the Maxwell Publishing team and just being invited into a lot of opportunities to just partner with them. So that's been amazing. The actual functional part of publishing the book, I think the misnomer when you publish in traditional publishing is that the publisher will do a lot of the work. And you know this, Carrie. It's like when you publish a book, you still have to own most of the marketing. Yes, the publisher's gonna do a few things and. Yeah, but the marketing rests on you. And my first couple of books, I did not particularly the first clout, I did not know like, the level of marketing that I needed to do as the author. And so unfortunately, I feel like that book didn't get quite the exposure that it probably should have gotten. And so I will say, going into hybrid publishing, you know, it's on you. Like, you know, you've got to do all the work, but frankly, it's not that much different. So you might have a more specific question in there. But frankly, it's been a great experience and I retain the ownership so that I can actually create courses and things with the book material. That's really critical to what I'm doing with this book.
- [62:10]
B
No, it's just a curiosity for me. I'm definitely pursuing that route for my next couple of projects. Investigating it. I would say not necessarily pursuing it it, but investing it. I mean, between author's equity and Maxwell's hybrid publishing setup that they have, those are just a couple of names that I've had a look at. I think there's something there. And I think before it was either you go with a major publisher or you self publish and nobody ever sees your book or perhaps it becomes a viral hit. And I think there's a lot of promise for hybrid publishing, so.
- [62:46]
A
So yeah, I think it. I. I appreciate the different solutions that they're coming up with in. And I think the biggest thing like you're doing is just the education of, okay, what is. What are the nuances? What are the difference? What does this mean for me? What do I want to do? What do I not want to do? I wanted to do hybrid because I did still want the traditional distribution opportunities, and. And I wanted somebody to guide me, really hold my hand through the entire process. And that's what my experience has been with Maxwell in my hybrid deal, is that I have a team that is holding my hand through the entire process, from the edits, the. You know, you're not just kind of. You get the professionalism of a traditionally published book, which is what I needed because I was like, I need that expertise. I need people who know how to produce it correctly.
- [63:46]
B
Yes. And you want to be really happy with the final product you hold in your hands, not feeling like someone printed it off in their garage or at Kinko's.
- [63:54]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [63:55]
B
All right, Jenny, this has been fascinating. The new book is called Culture Matters. It's available pretty much everywhere. Right?
- [64:02]
A
That's right. That's right. Yeah. Culture Matters. A framework for helping your team grow, thrive, and be unstoppable. And you can go to culturemattersbook.com and all the information is there. It can link you over to all kinds of resources and opportunities to connect.
- [64:16]
B
Well, Jenny, if people want to find you online, where are you active? Where can we follow your travel troubles? Instagram, if you follow Jenny, you know what I'm talking about.
- [64:27]
A
That's exactly right. It's become a story in itself. I'm Jenny Catron. J E N N I C A T R O N. I'm on all the social media. And then jennycatron.com is also a great place to go and connect further.
- [64:40]
B
Awesome, Jenny. Thanks for all you do for leaders and for me. Really appreciate you.
- [64:44]
A
Thanks so much, Carrie.
- [64:45]
B
Well, there was a lot there, and you probably want to tap into a lot of what Jenny had to say. So check your podcast app, wherever you're listening, and you'll see there's a link to show notes. You can also go to carynwhoff.com episode709 and you'll find everything there. We will get that to you and we're really thrilled to be able to provide you with links to everything we talked about in the podcast and more Next episode, the one and only Craig Groeschel is on the pod. We talk about the benefit of the doubt and catch up with all things leadership with Craig. Also coming up, Mark Clark. Nef Downs, Mark Batterson. Warren Bird, Mark Sayers, Gabe and Rebecca Lyons Glenn packet and a whole lot more. Thank you so much for listening. Hey, if this conversation with Jenny was helpful, I would love it if you left a review or comment wherever you're listening and just let me know. Let me know that it was helpful. Maybe text it to a friend, post it to Social. I'm Carrie Newhoff on most of the channels or Cnewhoff. You'll find me there. And if you haven't subscribed, please do. You will never miss an episode, including Craig Groeschel, who's up next. Hey, thanks to the much for listening today and I hope our time together today has helped you identify and tackle a growth barrier you're facing. Hey, before we go pastors, I know how hard it can be to keep your sermons fresh and relevant, especially when you are preaching week after week after week after week. So whether you're hitting writer's block or you're in a rush trying to pull put the finishing touches on your sermon, it can be hard. And so I want to help. I've created a 10 step preaching cheat sheet. Actually, I just totally revised it. After decades of preaching, I've simplified my sermon prep into a series of steps and reminders. Now updated, they're engaging, relevant, memorable, and ready for preaching in Today's culture. It's 10 simple prompts with examples that you can start using as early as today for next Sunday. So start transforming your preaching. Visit preachingcheatsheet. Com. Get your new copy for free. Even if you downloaded this a year ago or so. We've had 40,000 church leaders download it. It's updated. Check it out preachingcheatsheet.com to download your copy absolutely free.