← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 711 | A Masterclass on the New Apologetics: Breaking Down What Wesley Huff Got Right with Joe Rogan and Billy Carson
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Christian Apologist Wesley Huff recently debated Billy Carson, which led to an appearance on the Joe Rogan Show. In both cases, Wes demonstrated a powerful approach to apologetics. In this episode, Carey outlines four best practices Wes embodied and...
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The Art of Leadership Network on the Rogan show. He never corrected Joe Rogan's language or style. If you know Joe Rogan for more than five minutes, you know he's gonna drop F bombs and that kind of thing, and he did during the episode. And Wes didn't blink. He didn't correct him. He didn't chide him. He didn't make him feel like he was more superior because he wasn't dropping F bombs, and he just respected where Joe was at, and. And he respected his knowledge. Welcome to the Keri Neuhoff Leadership Podcast. Hey, I'm so glad you joined us today. I hope our time together helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, you know, everything's changing. We are in a very rapidly changing cultural moment. And today I wanted to take some time giving you my take on what's happening in apologetics, and I think we got an absolute masterclass on how to do it right. Sometimes, you know, we're great at criticizing in the church. Sometimes you have to break down when something worked. Today I'm gonna go into how Wes Huff performed when he debated Billy Carson and then appeared on the Joe Rogan episode. I'm gonna talk about that. And I think he did so many things well, things that you and I can learn from. I hope it's really gonna help you preach better, and I hope it's gonna help you share your faith personally a whole lot better as a result of the time we spend together today. Hey, by the way, we've got a great YouTube presence as well. And this week alone, I' a copy of my book at yout Best to five Lucky Winners. So to enter the giveaway after you've listened to this episode, you can find it on YouTube. Leave a Comment saying, I'm ready to live at my best, and you may be one of the winners. All right, so culture is changing fast, and I believe our apologetics needs to change with it. So, Wes Huff, by the way, if you've been living under a rock, I got so many texts on this, debated Billy Carson, and did a very good job. So much so that it got Joe Rogan's attention. And. And Joe Rogan invited him on the podcast, and I think what Wes did in both occasions got so much of what the future of apologetics is supposed to be about. He got that right. So I'm going to share a host of things he got right. And you might say, well, why are you doing this? Okay. I've noticed more than a few Christians are becoming very aggressive and defensive when they talk about their faith. That's happened in the past. It's still happening today. Others have hung onto approaches that worked 40 years ago, but they don't really resonate today. And I think all of that is changing in real time. So that's what we're going to cover today. But before we dive in, here's a quick word from our partners. So let's dive into today's conversation. Bottom line. I thought Wes Huff on Joe Rogan was a masterclass in modern apologetics. Okay, so I first heard about the whole thing with Wes Huff and Billy Carson and Joe Rogan. He debated just to get the facts straight. For those of who are new to this conversation, Wes Huff is a Canadian apologist. He is young, he's 33, and he ended up on Joe Rogan. And the reason he ended up on the Joe Rogan experience was because he had done a debate on another podcast with Billy Carson, and he had done a really good job. And Rogan had had Billy Carson on his podcast basically saying Christianity was a bit of a joke, and Billy Carson does not believe like Wes Huff does. And he said, hey, I had to give equal airtime to the Christian side. Got Wes Huff on there. And I was blown away by what Wes did. So my phone had blown up like it hadn't blown up in a long time about another podcast episode with people asking me if I knew Wesley Huff and whether I'd seen the Billy Carson Wes Huff debate or Rogan. And I'm like, no, I have not seen this. So after about 10 or 15 texts, you know, over a few days, I'm like, okay, I gotta go and investigate. So the first thing I'll say is, you know, because everybody knows one Canadian me. And then they're like, hey, do you know this other guy? And I'm like, you know, probably not. Then I looked, I thought, he looks really familiar. It actually turns out I do know Wes Huff. We have met. He was best man at my niece's wedding about a decade ago. And I was blown away by what I saw. Okay, the YouTube video of the Rogan episode, when I saw it, was up for a few days, had millions of views already. Same with the Billy Carson debate. And personally, I just think that Wes crushed it. He did so well, and you and me should be taking notes. So I think, you know, when you think about the opportunity, a Christian rarely gets an opportunity to be on the biggest podcast in the world to talk about his or her faith. When you end up having that opportunity, as Wes did, you end up reaching a young, often male audience that's usually pretty skeptical of religious content. Joe Rogan obviously is open spiritually. You can tell that if you look at the conversation, if you watch it, if you listen. But typically his audience is not all right. They're kind of skeptical of religious content. I thought Wes also demonstrated how to engage secular spaces really effectively. So as we kind of pull away lessons, what I want to do is I want to drill down on three major things that Wes got right and then look at four takeaways for you, me and modern apologetic. All right, so what did Wes actually. Well, if there's one principle that underscores everything I'm going to share with you, it's this. Wes won hearts by humbly engaging minds. He won people's heart. I think he won Joe Rogan's heart. I think he won the audience's heart both during the Billy Carson debate, but especially during the Rogan episode. And he did it by humbly engaging people's minds. That's an approach that many of us, including me, could learn from. Because often, you know, apologetics has a tinge of arrogance to it, has a tinge of like, I'm right, you're wrong, let me show you what's going on. So I want to break that down. And how do you win hearts by humbly engaging minds? So he did three things very, very well. The first is deep intellectual preparation. I mean, I couldn't believe, all right, I spent 10 years, 11 years in university, I studied at seminary, law school, all that stuff. I just couldn't believe at age 33, everything he knew about history, everything he knew about the papyruses, all the languages that he spoke. I mean, the guy at age 33, I believe that's how old he is, has the learning and academic knowledge of a 70 year old professor. In other words, he had done his homework and he could take on any intellectual, so he had wisdom beyond his years. Knowledge beyond his years, basically. I don't know how long he's been studying, 15, 20 years, but he is an expert in his field now. He had deep intellectual preparation, but there were some very crucial moments in the Rogan episode when Rogan would ask him a question and he admitted he didn't know something. Rather than bluffing, I mean, honestly, I probably bluffed at different times. We definitely have done that, right? You know, when you have that moment, it was sort of like Joseph standing before Pharaoh going, you know, I can't interpret that dream, but I know a God who can. It's that kind of Humility that really showed out. And he did that numerous times in the conversation where he admitted he didn't know something rather than just bluffing. The other thing he did that I think really helped his credibility was he self corrected. So he uploaded a YouTube video to his own YouTube channel called Wesley Huff Exposes Wesley Huff. And what he did was he went through different clips of the Rogan episode showing where he made some mistakes, like he misquoted a few things. Now they were really minor, but for him to do that, I think showed great intellectual commitment and rigor. Another thing that I thought he did really well in his preparation. And this again wasn't just prep for the interview. This is how he approaches his craft. He's a historian, he's working on his doctorate, but he had a deep knowledge of both Christian and opposing viewpoints. Right. When I was in law, one of the best strategies you could have is you have to understand your case, but you also have to understand your opponent's case hopefully better than your opponent does. And you have to understand what the judge needs in order for the judge to rule in your favor. If you can do that, you're going to win some cases. And that's what west did really well. He knew his case, but he also knew what the opposing side was thinking. And he could empathize, anticipate, and then come back with another viewpoint. He also had an astounding command of historical and textual evidence. I mean, he had whole categories of knowledge. Again, four year seminary degree, I'm like, yeah, I didn't touch that. And I took classes at some of the places where he got his undergrad because we're both Canadian. So I mean, I get it. He just knows his stuff. And if you're gonna go up against other people, particularly in a public sphere, you should really have prepared. You should be ready. Right? I think at this point in my life, it's like, stick to your lane. I get approached to talk on a wide variety of subjects. I'm like, I know you know a lot about a little, but not a little, but a lot. So stick to your lane. That's his lane. He was exactly ready for that moment. So it was deep intellectual preparation that got him ready for that moment. And one of those things where when God is shaping you, you're basically prepared for a moment like that. He didn't know a month in advance that he was going to get a call from Rogan, but he had been prepping for that for years. So if you want to become an expert in something, what do you. Do you start today? Okay. Second thing he did really well, and I think this is a showcase, is he showed a high relational intelligence. As I hinted at earlier, Christians can be pretty combative sometimes in apologetics. It's like, I'm right, you're wrong. He didn't give off that vibe at all. He had a very non combative approach in his response with Billy Carson. So if you go back to the debate that actually got him on Rogan, he got interrupted a lot. He had Internet issues with that. But like, you know, the host and Billy Carson kept interrupting him, kind of insulted him from time to time. He was just non combative. He would just come back to the facts. Now, on the Rogan show, he never corrected Joe Rogan's language or style. If you know Joe Rogan for more than five minutes, you know he's gonna drop F bombs and that kind of thing. And he did during the episode. And Wes didn't blink. He didn't correct him, he didn't chide him. He didn't make him feel like he was more superior because he wasn't dropping F bombs. And he just respected where Joe was at and he respected his knowledge and research. And I think that is a really good approach. So he didn't also. And this is like an intangible, but this is my take on it. Wes didn't let the moment go to his head. All right. He could have said, all right, this is my moment. I'm gonna shine, I'm gonna blow everybody else away. No, he just humbly answered the questions. He was curious, he was open, and he had this incredible background of knowledge that honestly blew Joe Rogan away. So the other thing he did was he used accessible language while maintaining his intellectual depth. He could have gone all professor on us where he was saying things that not even graduate students would understand. He definitely has that depth. He didn't do it. He made it clear that he had done the research, but then he used it in conversational language. And I think that's a sign of humility and also high relational intelligence. All right. Third thing is he was theologically solid and respectful. Sometimes we can be theologically respectful and wishy washy. Sometimes we can be theologically solid and kind of rigid and abrasive and difficult. So I noticed a couple of things. For example, Rogan asked him about Genesis 1. Like, is that a literal creation of the world? Is it? Like, what is that? And what was interesting is Wes gave his view, but then he said, there are other sincere Christians who hold different views about how this works. And he opened up the possibility that there was more than one way to read certain biblical texts. So he respected various serious Christian viewpoints on issues where Christians disagree. Often as a Christian we'll say, oh, this is the only way to see it. This is the way to do it. I think we lose friends and de influence people when we do that. He seemed to be very open and again, but very tethered to truth. You've got to, before you comment on this, please go and listen to six hours of conversation with Wes Huff, Joe Rogan and then the Carson debate and then come back and leave your comment because you've got to understand the context. But I thought he did that really well. And then he drew some very clear lines on essential beliefs while remaining gracious about secondary issues. And I think that's just good theology. So those are the three things he did really well. Deep intellectual preparation, high relational intelligence, and he was theologically solid, but also respectful of different views and very respective of Joe's views. He was kind of curious about that. So those are the three things he did well. Now I want to jump into four takeaways, but before we jump into the four takeaways, I also want you to know I've thought a lot about apologetics over the years as well. I have a good friend, Mark Clark, and we have spent over a quarter century, well, 50 years, if you really put our lives together, preaching to post Christian culture. And what Mark and I realized is you've got to engage differently. So what we've done is we put something together called the art of reaching. It's called course that you can get. Mark Clark is an expert in apologetics. One of the most sought after preachers in America today. He moved from Vancouver down to Sacramento. He grew a church in Vancouver from 0 to 5000 in hyper secular culture. So in the art of reaching, Mark and I talk about practical strategies, insights, and basically, if you want to engage apologetically and otherwise unchurched people in a conversation about faith, we show you exactly how to do that. So check out the link in the description wherever you're listening to this show. So with that said, what are the lessons for modern faith conversations? Lesson number one, no surprise here. Do your homework. Do your homework. Do your homework. Do your homework. All right. Don't let your confidence exceed your intelligence. Okay? If you look at social media, there is a lot of people whose confidence exceeds their intelligence. Let your intelligence exceed your confidence. And obviously you want some humility thrown in with that as well. A common Pitfall is that Christians make factually incorrect statements. If you do, and we're all prone to do that, correct yourself, go on the record like he did. You build credibility through knowledge when you really know your field. And again, I'm not a historian. I have a degree in history. That was my first degree. Not a historian. But make sure that when you're speaking about something, you know what you're speaking about. Understand your own position, but also work really hard to understand other people's perspectives deeply. Be sensitive to the people you're talking about, and don't write them off as dumb. Okay, so you want to do your homework. You want to understand, why do intelligent people believe that? Why are there atheists who are actually intelligent people? And that will show when you do your homework. And then you want to stay current with scholarships and cultural conversations. And of course, a part of that is admitting when you don't know. There were numerous times on the Rogan episode where Wes simply said, you know, I really don't know. But that's a great question. That's an excellent approach. Don't out punt your coverage intellectually. Second thing you can do is hone your relational skills. You want to respect differing viewpoints. You want to avoid arrogance and combativeness. You want to learn to read the room, right? Like, is somebody really going there? Toward the end of the Joe Rogan interview, I was thinking, oh, if I was there, I would ask Joe, what do you believe spiritually? And that's exactly what Billy did. He said, well, where are you on Jesus? Oh, that was brilliant. Like, he read the room. He could see that Joe was very open and he asked the question. And then what? Another thing you want to do if you're talking about this, like in conversations or publicly, is you want to adapt your communication style to your audience. That's what you want to do. Every audience is not the same. You can see that in his debate with Billy Carson, he had a bit of a different approach than with Rogan. Rogan's way more collegial and conversational. And at the end of the day, you want to be building bridges rather than walls. That's a really important point. Those were long conversations, but the way Wes handled himself, it kind of felt like, oh, this is the beginning of the conversation, not the end. Like two hours later, three hours later, slam dunk. You're a Christian. Let's baptize you. No, the conversation is often ongoing. Sometimes it happens that it's start to finish in an hour. No. So you want to build bridges. Rather than walls. And then the third thing is find a humble authority. Find a humble authority. I think that embodied Jesus well, I thought Wes did that really well. You want to admit your knowledge gaps. You want to be willing to learn from others. It's like, I didn't know that. That is a really good point. Thank you so much for sharing that. You want to hold your convictions without being combative. There's a lot of combativeness in the church right now. I think that's going to backfire against us. I don't think that's winning us, people. It's going to win. You know, your tribe's going to get all fired up. Yeah, you tell them. Right. But I don't know that that's going to really work with the culture right now. And then let your preparation speak for itself. You don't have to defend yourself. If you know your craft, if you know your field, they're going to be blown away by what you know. And then when you do that, you can speak the truth without being defensive. Right. You don't have to defend anything. You can just say, well, this is what I believe, or this is what's true, or this is what the manuscripts say, or et cetera, et cetera. And then the fourth thing, and I wanted to really elevate this, is practice engaged listening. So you can go in. And I think this is a good thing. I try to do this on my podcast. When I do a couple of conversations on my podcast, I'm tired after because what am I doing? I've come prepped, but I'm listening. I'm trying to pay attention. Wes did that really well. He focused on understanding the question and the guest before responding. He asked genuine questions, not staged questions. He showed an interest in other people's perspectives. He created space for real dialogue. I mean, he just did a very good job on that. So this didn't feel like a slam dunk argument, but more like an invitation to more dialogue. And I think you want to do that. You really want to be in a place where you are encouraging more dialogue. So those are some thoughts. That's why I think it's an apologetics masterclass for us. So what else can you do? Well, study both Christian and secular sources. If you're going to be an apologist, you got to know the opponent's enemy, your friend, as we call it in law, your friend's enemy. You want to build relationships probably with people of different beliefs. You want to really understand, like, why do Muslims believe what they believe? They're not all crazy. Believe it or not, atheists are not all crazy. Agnostics are not all crazy. So you want to build relationships with people of different beliefs and really see to understand. You probably want to get some reps in. You know, Wes had done a lot of debates. He had done a lot of interviews before Joe Rogan. So you want to practice discussing faith with non Christians rather than just going on your social becoming an apologist or that kind of thing. And you want to learn to articulate your beliefs clearly and graciously. And above all, do your homework, be an expert, become an expert and speak out of your expertise, even if it's a very narrow lane, which mine is. Just a minute. I got a real narrow lane. So as Christians, you know, we gotta raise our game intellectually and we also have to raise it relationally. So I hope this has helped. Remember, you have an opportunity too to check out my Art of Reaching course. Just click the link wherever you're watching or listening to this podcast. And as I mentioned earlier, we can all get better at sharing our faith. I think we got a master class in apologetics and this is an opportunity to learn and to grow from it. Thanks so much for listening everybody. We have got Mark Clark, Justin Brierly, Nef Downs, Warren Bird, Levi Lusko, and a whole lot more coming up on the podcast. If you subscribe, you never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. And hey, if you found this podcast helpful, leave a review or comment wherever you're listening and let me know. I hope our time together today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing. Hey, before we go, pastors, I know how hard it can be to keep your sermons fresh and relevant, especially when you are preaching week after week after week after week. So whether you're hitting writer's block or you're in a rush trying to put the finishing touches on your sermon, it can be hard. And so I wanna help. I've created a 10 step preaching cheat sheet. Actually, I just totally revised it. After decades of preaching, I've simplified my sermon prep into a series of steps and reminders. Now updated, they're engaging, relevant, memorable, and ready for preaching in Today's culture. It's 10 simple prompts with examples that you can start using as early as today for next Sunday. So start transforming your preaching. Visit preachingcheatsheet.com, get your new copy for free. Even if you downloaded this a year ago or we've had 40,000 church leaders download it, it's updated check it out. Preachingcheatsheet.com to download your copy absolutely free.