← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 752 | How Do You Fire Staff That Are Like Family? Jon Gordon on Making the Tough Calls on Staffing and Creating Great Teams
00:49:13
Many church leaders think of their staff as family. But if they're family, can you fire them? Jon Gordon has coached hundreds of professional sports teams and companies and explains what it takes to make the tough calls, including firing people you...
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- [00:01]
Carrie Newhoff
The Art of Leadership Network.
- [00:03]
John Gordon
Carrie. I walked in one day and my son's girlfriend is my social media coordinator. My son works for a company and he's doing sales, and they were both not doing their jobs. So I walk in and I could tell right away by the way. And my New Yorkness came out and the accountability came out. I said, I want you guys to know I love you guys. I said, I love you. You're my family. But I will fire my family right now is what I said. I will fire you. Gu.
- [00:34]
Carrie Newhoff
Welcome to the Carey Newhoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here, and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, who says we avoid tough issues? Man, I get this question a lot. You know, a lot of people use the metaphor of family for their staff. Well, how do you fire someone when they're like family? John Gordon has consulted with so many teams. I mean, pro sports teams, corporate teams. And so we go there today and draw on the wealth of knowledge that he is. I'm so excited to bring you this episode. Welcome wherever you're listening from, whatever you happen to be doing. I have been listening a lot. While I am doing yard work, we put in new gardens this year, largely because of an ice storm anyway. And yeah, I've been listening while riding my bike, too, trying to get back on my bike after my illness. By the way, I'm going to give you a personal update on this podcast in a couple of episodes and just really appreciate everybody who's reached out in prayers. And these have been the most difficult 18 months of my adult life and I'm going to share, well, maybe not the most, but like, among them. And I'm going to share a little bit why with you very soon on the podcast. Don't worry, nothing's changing here. I'm not quitting. We're doing what we're doing and we're having a great time. But yeah, sometimes you have to lead and persevere through a lot of stuff. And that's kind of been my story for the last year, year and a half. So enough about that. We are going to talk with John Gordon today, and before we get there, I want to shout out Cameron from Spotify. He commented on my Church Trends Update episode. He said the episode put a focus on what he's seeing locally, too, but he hadn't really noticed the trend. Man, I love that feedback. I have a good friend, leads a very large church. He's like, you're my researcher. My head's down. Going from Sunday to Sunday. And so thanks for doing that, man. I love doing it. If you haven't listened to the Church Trends episode, it's episode 742. Take a listen. Just scroll back and let me know if you're seeing the same trends in your community. I'd love to hear from you. So John Gordon is a best selling author. He has worked with numerous Fortune 500 companies, professional and college sports teams, school districts, hospitals and nonprofits. He has authored 31 books, including 17 bestsellers, five children's books. His tips and him have been featured on the Today show, cnn, cnbc, the Golf Channel, Fox and Friends, and in numerous magazines and newspapers. You want to hear his client list? The LA Dodgers In N Out Burger, the LA Rams, Campbell Soup, Dell Public, Southwest Airlines, the Chicago Bulls, Miami Heat, Colorado Rockies, Clemson Football all right, we created some rivalries there. I don't know anything about sports, but anyway, I know we did Northwestern Mutual Bear, West Point Academy, and more. We're taking all of those insights and bringing them to you. That's why I love doing this. We're going to jump into my conversation with John right after we hear a word from our carefully selected podcast sponsors. Listen up. This podcast is brought to you by Belay. Well, what if your message could reach further without adding more to your plate? So you were called the ministry to change lives, not to chase algorithms, design graphics, or manage marketing campaigns. Yet too many pastors do that, and way too often the urgent demands of digital outreach pull you away from what matters most leading your people and sharing the gospel. You shouldn't have to choose between reaching more people and staying true to your calling. That's where Belay's expert marketing assistants come in. They help pastors like you grow your market presence without growing your to do list. If you're not sure how to start, here's what you do. Download Belay's free resource 15 Tasks a Pastor Can Delegate to a Marketing Assistant. You'll discover exactly what to hand off so you can focus on your calling, not content calendars. How do you do it? Well, text the word carry C A R e y to 55123. That's Carrie to 55123. Let belay help you lead with greater focus and greater impact. This episode is brought to you by Church Salary One of the most important and uncomfortable questions church leaders ask is, am I being paid fairly or am I paying my team fairly? If you're the senior pastor. That's why I've invited Brad Hill from glu, who works alongside church Salary to tell us about a free tool that give you clear answers. Brad?
- [04:51]
Brad Hill
Yeah, thanks, Gary. You know, when it comes to fair pay in ministry, a lot of people just literally don't know where to start and to solve that problem. And our partners over at Church Salary have created a pretty amazing new app, and it gives you a free salary report preview, and it looks at the current salary range for your role, but it bases it on real employees and real churches that kind of mirror your situation.
- [05:17]
Carrie Newhoff
So you're saying if I'm a pastor in Virginia at a small church with 10 years of experience, your salary preview will take all of that into consideration?
- [05:26]
Brad Hill
That's exactly right.
- [05:27]
John Gordon
Yeah.
- [05:28]
Brad Hill
It looks at church size, level of education, experience, all those things. So, you know, whether you're evaluating staff salaries or, like you said, Carrie, even trying to benchmark your own pay, this tool is going to help you get started.
- [05:41]
Carrie Newhoff
Wow. So it's not based on national averages or things you have to try to figure out for your own community. So if you've got questions about church salaries, this is your starting place. You can visit churchsalary.com Carrie, that's churchsalary.com Carry to get your free preview today. And now my conversation with John Gordon. John, it's great to have you back on the podcast, Carrie.
- [06:06]
John Gordon
Great to be with you. I love our conversations and people always tell me that they heard me on your podcast, so I know you have a lot of amazing listeners.
- [06:13]
Carrie Newhoff
Oh, that's insane. I've loved our conversations. You and I spent a day together about a year, year and a half ago with Patrick Lencioni. That was so refreshing. I hope to get there this fall. Yeah, you're doing really incredible work. And today, book 38. Are you kidding me? That's insane, man. I mean, you've written more books than most people have read, but we're going to do a deep dive into teams. I'm talking to a lot of leaders these days, and particularly as their churches are growing, you know, they've gone from a couple hundred to five hundred to a thousand or more in attendance on Sunday. Team issues just come up again and again and again. And, you know, this is what you do, dude. You're like professional sports. How many teams have you consulted with professionally? Ballpark.
- [07:04]
John Gordon
I don't even know how many, but I know a lot. We're talking the LA Rams, the Dodgers, the Miami Heat, countless college teams of all, all types, all different sports teams. Has to be a couple hundred probably over the years.
- [07:19]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you've, you've got pattern recognition going. You're connecting the dots, you're seeing what works. Let's start here, John. So many teams look great on paper, but they underperform or they fall apart. It's kind of like watching the All Star Game. It's never that exciting. It's not a great game, right? Sometimes it is, but not really. And they go out and get the best players, they got number one picks, they get a couple of free agents. It just doesn't gel. Why is it that what's happening on paper doesn't always translate into real world results?
- [07:54]
John Gordon
That's because talent won't take you to where you want to go. It's actually your commitments will. And so if you have a team that's really committed to each other, then you become a stronger team. You know, when EMC and Dell merged together, I was working with their leadership teams in Ireland, in Singapore and Austin, meeting with them, helping them become one team. And the idea of one team sounds great on paper, but how do you actually become one team, one connected team? And so often it's about losing the egos, it's about the commitments they need to have. And there's a series of steps and processes that you have to go through. But when a team does that, then you see them perform it higher level. That's the beauty of this. And you said pattern recognition. I love that because you're right. Working with so many different business teams and school teams and sports teams, I can tell right away what, where the dysfunction is, I can tell where the challenge is, I can tell what the issue is. I actually created a seven commitments checklist. And just by even looking at the checklist and seeing what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong, I can tell you what your issues are with the team.
- [09:00]
Carrie Newhoff
Isn't that interesting how when you've, when you've had the kind of broad multi decade experience that you have, and again, it's not just sports, it's corporate, it's high school, school, it's, you know, leadership events, that kind of thing, you can walk in within anywhere between 30 seconds and five minutes. You got a pretty good read on the room, right?
- [09:16]
John Gordon
Boom, boom. And again, even working with churches over the years like I have, talking to the pastor, talking to his staff, seeing how they interact, seeing the culture, experiencing that. What does it even feel like? You can tell right away and it's fun. There was one time I was with an NBA team and I was watching practice after practice, I was meeting with the coaches and I Said, you know, I can see things that maybe others don't see just because I've worked with so many teams. And one of the assistant coaches was very skeptical. He's like, oh, yeah? Oh, yeah? What'd you see? What'd you see with us? I can. I said, well, so and so is not committed. So and so is probably dealing with a contract dispute right now and is not happy with the other team members. They're not happy with him. There's some. Some issues going on, some arguments. And the other coach, who knew, you know, knew me really well, he said, I didn't tell him. I didn't tell him. And it was a fun moment. I'm like, I told you. Like, I can watch and tell. I can watch a team on the field and tell. I can go to a school district and spend time with the staff and the leader. And you can just tell because, like, a doctor sees symptoms and knows the symptoms are. Are the expression of a root issue. It's the same thing. There are symptoms on teams that are expressions of the root problems that team is experiencing. And it always goes to carry the disconnection and connection. Are we divided and disconnected, or are we connected and united? And it's amazing because God created us for relationships, and as we have strong relationships, we're able to be more powerful together. But when we break apart in those relationships, in that trust that. In that love and that willingness to sacrifice, well, then the team becomes weaker and weaker. Am I focused on me or we? It's very clear when a leader is focused on me or we, and the team will usually be a byproduct of that.
- [11:14]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, you've given us a couple already, but, like, when you're walking in and I do this for churches, right? I'll visit a church, and you have a pretty good idea of the culture within minutes. What are some of the tells? What are some of the tells of a strong team commitment? And what are some of the tells of a weak team commitment? Where, you know, the fact that you'd watch a practice and go, that guy's having a contract dispute. This person's upset. Like, again, you didn't know, but the tells were there, right? The symptoms were there. So when you're seeing a team, what are some of the positive, like, whoa, this is a really strong team. And some of the negative tells that are, oof. There's some work here.
- [11:51]
John Gordon
Well, for one, a great example is Cornell lacrosse. They just won a national championship. And that's my team. I played at Cornel many years Ago, and they just won this championship. So right before the game, I'm watching them warm up and these guys are hugging each other. These guys are fist pounding. These guys are just loving on each other. Right before the game, not after they won, but beforehand, I said, wow, these guys have a connection. They have a bond. They truly care about each other. They love each other. So physical contact, whether it's high fives, bumps, or hugs, are often a great sign of a team that is connected and fighting for each other. And then you go to a team and. And are they huddling together or is half the team huddling? The other guys are sitting down on the chair. You walk into a staff meeting of school leaders. The principal is talking. Is everyone listening? Are other people engaged and sharing or are they scared to talk? I just spoke to a really great company that they. All of their leaders, they're 300 leaders. I think they have, I don't know, 10, 20,000 employees. And all these great leaders gave their owner a standing ovation. I thought, okay, that's a great sign. I told him it's one of two things, though. A lot of love or a lot of fear that you're giving the standing ovation.
- [13:10]
Carrie Newhoff
That can go both ways.
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John Gordon
Yeah, I joked on that earlier. I said, this is great. But you could tell that they really love their owner and they had a great, great culture. So. So those are just some of the tells. In terms of its body language, it's connection. It's. Is there a love for each other, a love for work, and also like a willingness to, to sacrifice and commit. When you go through the seven commitments, it all makes sense. This is the new book I wrote, and one of the commitments are the commitment to the vision and mission of the team. So are we all aligned on the vision and mission, where we're going and why we're going there? Do we all agree that this is our mission and we are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve it? Of course. In an appropriate, ethical way.
- [13:52]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, it's interesting because I think a lot of church leaders would say, yeah, vision, mission, we're crystal clear. But as you're describing, how people are, and I don't want to name names, it's a former podcast guest, but I helped a church with just some donor things it was doing and they wanted me to speak into it. So I went there for a few days to their off site. And one of the things that really blew me away in a positive front was as all these guests arrived, their key volunteers, et cetera, there was a love in the room. It was a lot of warm embraces, a lot of hugs and a lot of people meeting for the first time. But we felt like family from the moment we got there. And I thought, that's super cool, really nice. And then there have been other times where I've been at a service run through and it's like a whole bunch of stiff volunteers who don't feel particularly connected, who are not high fiving each other, bringing each other cups of coffee, that kind of thing. It's just kind of like, everybody, sit down, head down, do your job, fill the slot, go home. So it's those kinds of invisible things. When you've been a leader in an organization for a long time, let's say somebody's listening to this, they've been there for five or six years. Do you find it easy for the senior leader to assume that they're warm, but they're not? In other words, it's sort of like your walls need repainting, but you're in the room every day so you don't see the scuff marks any right Anymore kind of thing. Like, how do you, how do you develop those eyes to know whether you've got the tells of a positive culture or a negative culture? Because I think every CEO thinks they're doing a great job. Every lead pastor is like, I'm awesome, right?
- [15:34]
John Gordon
They're not willing or they're not asking for feedback. And I have found that the best leaders want feedback. Feedback is the breakfast of champions for leaders. So.
- [15:44]
Carrie Newhoff
So the fact that you might be asking your team or looking for tells and really open is a sign that you're probably on the better side of that equation.
- [15:53]
John Gordon
Oh yeah. In our workshops, we encourage leaders to ask their team, on a scale of 1 to 10, how well am I communicating with you? And what would make it a 10? And you're going to get great feedback and great advice. I had one leader say, I did this with my team. And many said what I wanted to hear, but a few said what I needed to hear. And with tears in his eyes, he shared how he needed to get better. And those conversations made him better. So even if you think you're great, be willing to try this with your team and organization. Everyone should be writing this down right now and saying, okay, I'm going to go back to my team and say, on a scale of 1 to 10, how well do I communicate with you? Also you can ask this, what's it like to be led by me? What's it like on the other side of me and ask for feedback and be open to it again. You have to have the humility. There has to be trust. If there's no trust, though, people are not going to share the truth. They're going to be able. Afraid to share the truth. So you also have to be willing to share. I remember with my kids, we sat down at the table when they were older, in their 20s, early 20s, and I said, okay, what'd I do wrong? What could I have done better? Tell me what I could have done to be a better dad.
- [17:03]
Carrie Newhoff
Big question, Carrie.
- [17:05]
John Gordon
We were there for hours.
- [17:08]
Carrie Newhoff
Like, well, here's the list.
- [17:10]
John Gordon
Here's the list. No, but honestly, there were things, and not. It wasn't hours, but we went through them. And I'm like, you know what? You're right. I'm sorry. I wish I didn't put so much pressure on you when you were younger. I wish you didn't feel my intensity and stress that I put on you because I was a high achiever and I put that on you. It was a great conversation to be able to say that and share that. So even now, with my team now at work, I will literally, there are moments where I'll say to my team, hey, what can I do better? And I know I'm working on this. Do you notice? Can you tell? And. And for instance, like, I write and share a lot about positive leadership, and yet there are moments I get frustrated. There are moments that the team is not doing what they needed to do, and I get frustrated, or they're not seeing the vision. And because I'm a visionary, they often don't see it. And that's common with people who have, you know, these visions for the future and what it should look like, and they want their team to just be on board and get it. So that's frustrating, too, for me at times. And I recognize that. I know that I teach this, but I also see it within myself. You know, I got a great compliment the other day because one of my. My top team members, they said, I can tell you've been working on it. So I thought, all right, great. They can tell. They can tell. So even the guy who writes about positive leadership and how to be a great leader struggles. And here's what I know. I'm not the best leader. I really believe I'm the best at helping leaders build stronger teams. That's what I do. I help leaders build stronger teams and to be better leaders themselves. But I have to work on my own leadership. So now that I'm doing that. I really feel a desire and a goal to even help other leaders recognize this as well as you're talking about. So I think it's a great question you asked in terms of, you know, how can the leader be aware of it? And first they have to want to be aware and then they have to be willing to ask their team members and then you have to be able to build the relationships. I really believe you have to connect before you correct. So making sure that you are connecting with your team before correction can happen. And it goes both ways because you need to ask for how you can be corrected and. And you have to connect in order to correct your team members so that they know that you have their best interest at heart.
- [19:15]
Carrie Newhoff
I agree with that. Connect before you correct. And also, just to add my two cents, one of the reasons I started this podcast, 750 some odd interviews later. Wow. Is I want to get better in my leadership. I'm not there yet. And I keep learning and growing. John, what is one thing you believe is absolutely true about teams that almost no one else does, but you swear by it like, it's like rare belief. You're convinced everyone needs to know this, but maybe it's not a popular idea.
- [19:50]
John Gordon
I'm convinced that you do have to challenge each other in order to get better. And I know that some people think this, but not everybody recognizes they think, okay, if we're going to be a positive team, we can have difficult conversations. I believe you have to have difficult conversations in order to be a great team. You have to move from like to love. You have to move from the surface level to greater intimacy and connection. And I also would add that you have to make the time to do intentional team building exercises in order to grow as a team. A couple will go to therapy in order to get better. They go to counseling. Well, I've seen teams that have technically gone to team building type counseling that have healed these teams, united and bonded them together and then produced incredible results as a result of that over and over again. So that's my big thing in terms of connection and commitment. I talk about this more than anything. One of our key commitments is the commitment to connect. Teams must commit to connect with each other in order to get better because you'll never have commitment without connection. So the more connected you are, the more committed you'll be. But here's the other factor. And we talk about this, we know this, but every team member, I believe, and maybe others talk about this. I'm not sure, but you have to give something to your team. Everyone talks about that. You have to give. But here's the other thing I do believe you have to give up. Commitment is going to cost you. So there's something that you're going to have to give up in order to be a team member, a great team member. In my own personal relationship, I gave up golf. I wasn't going to play golf for 18 holes and be away from my wife and kids. I had to give that goal and desire up. It's why I'm a horrible golfer, right? So I would like to be a better golfer.
- [21:42]
Carrie Newhoff
I gave up golf for family too.
- [21:43]
John Gordon
Yeah, I had to give that up. You have to give up sometimes your desire to be right in order to the relationship to get better. If you are arguing and even if you win the argument, you both lose. So I had to give up that desire to be right up for a team. There are things you have to give up. If it's an athletic team, maybe you have to give up. Always wanted to score in order for other players to score and get better. So whatever it may be, commitment will cost you something. Time, energy, effort, or some accolade that you offer yourself. But what I have found is when you commit, the reward is so much greater that it comes back to. That might have been three things that you. That I shared for your answer. But those are some of the things.
- [22:28]
Carrie Newhoff
Those are great. And I love where you started. And I wanted to pick up on that because this is a real challenge, particularly for church leaders, not nonprofit leaders. You said we have to challenge each other. And that's part. I mean, you're Mr. Positivity, right? Your whole company, your whole approach is positive leadership. And I think sometimes you get into, you know, toxic positivity where everything's just sunny all the time. But I find there's two poles in church world. One is the shepherd pastor person who's like, I can't confront anybody about anything. Meanwhile, he or she knows they have all these B players who are making too much money for what they actually produce. They're not bringing their best. Maybe they've been on the team for 20 years. They're afraid to have the conversation with them going, Kerry, you're just not delivering in this season. So they don't want to challenge because they have too much of a heart. Well, it's okay. Carrie will be retired in a decade anyway. Well, just let him ride out into the sunset. And then you have high performance cultures where it's all about performance and all about OKRs, or monthly goals. And if you miss it, you're gone. And people live in fear, which you've already. And there seems to be this polarity in charities and in churches where. And mostly it's the first category.
- [23:47]
John Gordon
Great.
- [23:47]
Carrie Newhoff
I'm not going to confront you. You know, you're not very competent, but I'll just hire someone else. And now we have a bloated budget. What do you say, first of all, to leaders who are afraid to challenge or confront or have the hard conversations? What's the problem with that?
- [24:06]
John Gordon
We talk a lot about that, actually. We talk about positive. Leaders are demanding, but not demeaning. So it's okay to be demanding. And here's the best thing you do as a leader for your team. You set the standard. What does it look like to perform at your highest level? What's the expectation for this staff, for this person, for this team, for this volunteer? What is the expectation? You set the expectation. This is what we expect of you, and then this is what you can expect from me and from us, the leadership team. Once you set the expectations and the standards, now you're leading to the standards. And it's so much easier because it's not personal. I'm going to coach you along the way. I'm going to support you, I'm going to encourage you, but I'm also going to challenge you as we have to meet the standard. I'm going to show you what it looks like. Coaches will show the film. This is what a great play looks like, and this is what a horrible play looks like. And we have to do that with our churches. We have to say, hey, that was a great move on Sunday. You can see what you did here. And this was not so good. This made us worse. We have to be willing to tell the truth. You have to have, like, a Tell the truth Monday session, just like the Seattle Seahawks did under Pete Carroll after every game on Sunday. On Monday, they would have Tell the Truth Mondays, where they would tell the truth of who messed up, who need to play better, who missed the assignment. And they called people out, but everyone knew it was okay because they were calling them up to greatness. They were calling them up to get better. And everyone understood this is part of our culture. This is how we're going to get better. And we're going to bring it to light. We're going to share the truth so we can all improve. And no one took it personal. And I think that's the key. That's your culture that you have to create at your church, at your organization, at your business. You create the culture that way and said, this is how we're going to do things. You model it and then you start to reinforce it and do it on a daily basis, a weekly basis, and everyone comes to expect it. Then they see that this is the way it is and they're going to be exposed whether they can do their job or not. And if they can't, the next conversation is, all right, let's find a role in a position for you that will be best for you and the best for the organization. And you start having those conversations as long as you're willing. You have a great attitude, you give great effort. I'm sure there's some role and competency for you, but it might not be this role that you're in because we can't be our best as an organization. We can be our best church or our best business if we have someone in a role that they are not meant for or not skilled in the. And you're not going to put 150 pound person as the center of a football team in the NFL. So you have the right skill sets and the right talents for each position and that's the key. So it comes down to love and accountability. And guess what? If you're a church who modeled this Jesus, grace and truth. So you got to lead with the grace, you got to lead with the love first, lead with that connection, and then you lead with the correction and the truth and the challenge. And once you build the relationship, the love and accountability piece is key. There's love and encouragement, but there's an accountability one to the culture, to the values, to the principles, and then also to our standards of expectations of performance.
- [27:25]
Carrie Newhoff
So you've been in hundreds if not thousands of locker rooms watching everything from world championship teams to teams that are 1 in 16 for the season. You've seen the absolute best coach talks in the worst coach talks. I want to focus on the best because you're right. People come in, whether it's tell the truth Mondays or we're going to watch that game film or here's why we lost or here's, you know, we're going to get to the quarterfinals, we're not going to get to the finals unless we turn it around. When you see some coach at the top of their game bringing the best. I love the way you phrased it. You said calling him up, not calling him out. Right, you're calling them up. What are they doing? What are they saying? What does that look like? What does it sound like it's got.
- [28:11]
John Gordon
To be Dabo Sweeney pointing his team towards the future. The head coach of Clemson football, Dabo Sweeney is unbelievable. Here's something I have to share about him. Gary. We just had our training camp event where Dabo came and Sean McVay and Eddie George, Trent Dilfer, Mack Brown, Kevin O', Connell, the coach of the Vikings, Corey Close, UCLA, women's basketball. It was this incredible event of all these coaches. And when I got to introduce Dabo, I talked about how years ago, early on in his coaching, when I showed up to start working with this team, Sammy Watkins got in trouble with the university. He did some things he shouldn't have done. He made a bad decision. And they had a big game coming up against Auburn. It was the first game of the season, and everyone was saying that Dabo should play Sammy. It was okay. It wasn't that big of a deal what he did. You should play him. And Dabo said, I'm not playing him. That goes against my standards. I got to live up to our principles and our values of what we do and how we're going to do things here with this program. So I'm not playing him. If we lose, then we lose. We win. We're going to win the right way for the right reasons. And they won that game. And I truly believe that they would not have won those national championships if Dabo did not make that decision right then and there. And that's the kind of character, integrity he has. Here's another beautiful thing. I was in the locker room after they lost to Texas in this last college football playoffs, and they lost. And it was a close game. They battled, but ultimately Texas was just. Was too strong and too good in many ways. Dabo, in front of the entire team, said, guys, I am so proud of you seniors. You took us back to the playoffs. You were the most successful seniors in this program. Thank you for all that you've done. We will never forget you. And I appreciate you. And you know what? This was truly special. Even though we lost, this was special being here in this battle with you and you younger classmen who are coming back. Get ready, because we're going to be better next year and we're going to be focused on what we're doing. We're going to grow and reach new heights and even painted a picture for the future. And he pointed them towards a greater and better vision all in one moment. Like, these guys are distraught. There are tears coming down their eyes. And he consoled them, he thanked them, and then he encouraged them, and then he painted a great picture for the future when they won the national championship for Dabo's first national championship. I was in the locker room after the win as well, which was pretty cool. And Dabo said, guys, you just won a national championship. I'm so proud of you, but don't let this be the best moment of your life. You go be great husbands, you go be great fathers, you go create a great future so that you have better moments in your future than this. Whoa. You just won a national championship. And he's speaking to who they are as people and their future. So I would say those are a couple of my favorites, seeing him speak and what he did and how he said it.
- [31:03]
Carrie Newhoff
So what I'm hearing while you describe that is I'm hearing character.
- [31:09]
John Gordon
Big time integrity. Character integrity comes from the word integer, which means whole and complete. So when you have integrity, there's a wholeness and a completeness to you. You're not defined by your outcome. You're not defined by your wins and losses. You are defined by your character. A narcissist has gaps in their character, Huge gaps. So there's a gap between what you say and what you do, but with integrity, there's no gap. There's wholeness and completeness.
- [31:39]
Carrie Newhoff
I think also what I'm hearing you in that description say is it feels like Daba Sweeney is building people, not just teams.
- [31:49]
John Gordon
Yep.
- [31:49]
Carrie Newhoff
In other words, you go be dads, you go be boyfriends. Husbands, friends, sons.
- [31:55]
John Gordon
Do you know, truly the best leaders? And Matt Rule was also at my training camp event, and Matt Rule talked about this. The measure of his success is not necessarily the wins and losses of that season. It's the future that these young men create and the families they build and the companies that they lead and the organizations that they grow. He pointed that out. It's always about the people. The best leaders focus on the people. That then leads to greater power in the future or greater power in the present. So it really is about the people. It's not necessarily even the position. So often we focus on titles and positions. No, it's about the people. And when you invest in those people, those people actually become better players or better performers in your business. I wish more organizations got this right. Invest in your people, and they will perform at a higher level. Great leaders. Get this.
- [32:48]
Carrie Newhoff
Today's episode is brought to you by glue. You know, with summer winding down, it's officially back to church season. A crucial window to reconnect with your community and reignite momentum at Your church and Glue plus gives you everything you need to hit the ground running this fall. So here's what you can do. You can send texts and emails personally to invite people back and keep them engaged all through the autumn. You can create custom groups like parents, volunteers or new visitors and automate follow ups for prayer requests, first time guests or events. You can be more communicative than ever so no one and nothing falls through the cracks. You can use AI powered insights to understand your community's needs and tailor your outreach accordingly. And you can welcome new families into your area with the new Mover program. So thousands of churches are seeing real impact with Glue Plus. How do you get on board? Well, join them today@glue.com plus. That's G L O O.com plus one of my favorite things, if a staff member leaves and it doesn't happen every time, but once in a while it does happen. If they might say, hey, we did some amazing work together and I'm so grateful for the stuff that we're able to do. But I feel like I'm a different person. I feel like I'm a better person. I feel like I'm better at home, I'm better in life, I'm better in my faith and that always makes me really, really happy. How do you get that? If I wanted more of that for my team in the future, what do I do to make sure we're not just getting downloads or reaching more people or getting great content out there? But I'm actually helping people become better people. Christ followers, citizens.
- [34:24]
John Gordon
Yeah, there has to be discipleship and there has to be an investment in the relationship and in the person and in their growth. A big part of Dabo's philosophy is serve their heart, serve their talent, serve their growth. He actually used the carpenter in my book as a framework for his leadership and his organization. It's love, serving care. So every day with your team, you're loving them and you're serving them and you're showing them that you care about them. It's pretty simple when you think about it. It's how Jesus led us and modeled leadership for us. So it's about the investment. How can you lead someone if you don't know them? How can you motivate someone if you don't know what motivates them? It always comes down to relationship. And there are four Cs that we can all implement to build better relationships. 1. It starts with communication. And communication shares the same etymology as communion or community or commune, which means to join with. So the goal of communication is to join with. So as we communicate. Carrie. As we communicate with our people, our team members, our relationships, the goal is to join with, to create oneness, to create connection. And then that's the next C, which is connect. As we connect with people on our team and take the time to connect in a meaningful way, that builds a bond of trust. And as you build the bond of trust, the relationship strengthens, it grows, and you become one. Instead of two separate people, you become one team. Key for marriages, Key for your kids. Key for your business associates, your clients. Connection is essential. Are we spending time together? Are we making time? Are we finding time to talk about meaningful things? Not surface level things. I tell leaders all the time. Picked. Pick one person on your team every day and connect with that person. 5, 10 minutes. Have a meaningful conversation. Ask how they're doing, how you know what they need from you, how you can serve them. A simple question. Not. Not roads. Right? Not technically speaking, it. But from the heart. How can I help you? What do you need from me? How can. How can I serve you? How can I help you do your job better? Like, I'm here to serve you? What does it look like? So asking those questions is essential to develop the connection. And making the time to connect is key. And then there's. There's the other part of commitment. That's the. That's the third thing. Commitment. Like letting that person know that you got their back, that you will fight for them, that you will sacrifice for them. My mom was someone who sacrificed for me. Her last name is Gordon. That's her maiden name is Gordon. We took our mom's maiden name, my brother and I, after college, because our biological father left when I was a year old. So he was not committed, but my mom was. So commitment recognizes commitment. We took our mom's maiden name, but.
- [37:18]
Carrie Newhoff
You took that after college. That was something I didn't realize. That's amazing.
- [37:21]
John Gordon
Yeah. We wanted to carry on her commitment, her legacy. She died at 59 years old. And so now that Gordon name means even more. Because every day that I live, I carry on her legacy, her commitment, and I share it with others. So commitment is key.
- [37:38]
Carrie Newhoff
What a beautiful story.
- [37:39]
John Gordon
Yeah. If you could commit to your kids. More like let them know you're committed to them. My daughter remembers me bringing food before her big games in lacrosse. I'd always bring her sandwiches and food up to the school, and she remembers those moments. My son remembers me driving down when he was at IMG as a tennis player. I literally would drive down three and a half hours. I would go to the store, bring him some food that he needed, and he would go, all right, thanks, dad. I'll see you later. And literally, I would drive back the next morning. Like, he wouldn't even want to hang out. Wow. He wouldn't even want to hang out. And I thought, like, God, really?
- [38:10]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [38:10]
John Gordon
He's in school, he's with his friends, but he remembers me doing that. And that commitment. Your team members are going to remember the things that you did for them and how you serve them. Like, committing to the vision and mission is one thing, but are you committed to me, and am I committed to you? That's primal, right? Is there true commitment of safety that I know that if something happens to me, you will have my back? I can honestly say this, Kat, we spent enough time together. I know this. If you were in trouble and you were struggling, you needed help. I know that. I would literally fly and call if you said, hey, can you get here? I would. I would. And I know you would do the same for me.
- [38:47]
Carrie Newhoff
I would.
- [38:48]
John Gordon
We're just that kind of people. But I know that we would for each other. If someone needed my help, I would be there in a heartbeat. Not for everybody, but I know for you, yeah.
- [38:57]
Carrie Newhoff
You can't do it for everybody.
- [38:58]
John Gordon
Right? But. But there are. There are people that when you have a commitment, you will do that for. So you will fight for those people. And that last c. Is. Is care. Do you. Do you care about that person? And they feel that you care about them. And you can tell when someone truly cares about you. So it's making the time to care. It's making the time to commit, making the time to connect, making the time to communicate. All key parts of building that relationship.
- [39:24]
Carrie Newhoff
So you've set up the tension perfectly. There are a lot of church leaders who do that. But you also hinted at this, that sometimes you gotta cut someone from your team, that every once in a while. Yeah. You were last year's player, not this year's player. I talked to so many church leaders who were talking about this before we hit record. Right. They're in a growth spurt right now. And the people who are on the team when there were 200 people on a Sunday are not quite the right people. When there's 700 people or 1700 people on a Sunday. And they're looking at these loyal, wonderful people that have been there. They've had so many foxhole experiences, but they're not the right person for the next season. And what happens a lot in the church world, pastors have good hearts. Not all of them do, but a lot of them do. And they're like, I could never fire Kerry. I mean, you just can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. So Kerry stays on the team long past his shelf life. Talk to that church leader. What's going on there? What are the dynamics? And then when you're that deep, when you're Dabo Sweeney and you've made a commitment, but next season you're not coming back, how do you handle that?
- [40:34]
John Gordon
There are some people that, you know you have to maintain a commitment to. Dabo's quarterback, Cade Klubnick was not playing well two years ago, and everyone was saying Dabo should find another quarterback back. We're sitting there during training camp, and we're even talking about that. Me, Dabo and Kate. And Dabo says, I believe in you. Other people are telling me to get another quarterback, but I believe in you. Dabo said, everybody's telling me. And Kate goes, well, not everybody, coach. And Dabo said, you're right. Your parents have not told me to do that. It was really funny. It was a funny moment. But I watched Dabo's commitment to this player, and I thought, okay, that's a commitment that is warranted because he believed in the potential of what that person could become. So as a pastor, I would say, what is that person's potential? You've got to see what their ceiling is and what their capability is. What could they reach? How high can they grow? And can they actually move past where they are to where hopefully they can be? If, you know in your heart, okay, they're not going to be able to do this job. They just don't have the competency. They don't have the skills. It doesn't matter how much we train.
- [41:40]
Carrie Newhoff
Them or that young quarterback, you know, if it's NFL, they're 34 now. They're not 24.
- [41:45]
John Gordon
Yeah. And some guys, they just don't have it. You're just. They're just not going to be great in that moment under the lights in that situation, or they have a certain skill set that doesn't translate to the NFL. Then again, for that church person, you've got to be honest, because here's the key. Everyone in your church knows. Everyone already knows they're not good enough. So if you don't do anything, what that says is, you care more about that one person than everyone else on the team. And I know Jesus said, go after the One, this is different. We're not talking about leading them to Christ. We're talking about them performing. Andy Stanley said it best. He said, don't hire a ministry. Have a ministry. You're not supposed to hire a ministry if you're a church. You got to hire talented people who could do their jobs well so that you could live the mission and vision of your church, of your organization. And if someone is holding you back from that, you're not truly honoring what God has created you and your organization for. But I'm also saying I'm not sure you have to fire that person. You can really truly find another role for them. And this is where communication comes in. It's about you communicating with that person up front, you communicating with the team, you identifying the challenges, the issues and the needs, and then talking to that person saying, okay, here's our situation. Here's what we need. Here's where you are. I want to keep you. We have to find the right position for you, but it's not in this position any longer. And you have those conversations, and they may be hard initially, but you've built up the relationship. You've built up the trust. That person knows that you're doing this because you have to, not necessarily because you want to. And that truly will make you a stronger leader for that person and for everyone else. And, Carrie, I know this well because I've had to do this. I've had to have these conversations with various team members, and I never had anyone get angry. I said in a way that they understood. I told them the truth and explained it, and they understood. But I knew that my team members knew and were looking to see what I would do.
- [43:58]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, that's eventually on you if you're the one harboring the incompetence or the lack of motivation. But you're kind of back to tell the truth Monday, right? You just got to live and tell the truth Monday.
- [44:09]
John Gordon
Love and truth. Love. It's so simple. Love and truth. You love the person, but you got to speak the truth. And that will make you better. That will make the team better. It makes everyone better.
- [44:18]
Carrie Newhoff
All right, one or two more questions. Man, this time's flying. A lot of church leaders, and this is just a conversation of the moment right now, have used the metaphor of family for their church staff. We're a big family here, and they've been together for years, and now some of the players aren't working out. How do you fire family? You can't fire your mother. You can't fire your Sister. Right. Is that a helpful metaphor when you're in the corporate workplace, or do you think it's a lot better just to say, hey, we're a team? Because team members move in and move out, family members are kind of there forever. Any thoughts in a church context or a nonprofit context about family versus team as the primary metaphor?
- [44:56]
John Gordon
If you want a family and you want to call it a family, just make sure it's a functional family, not a dysfunctional family. A lot of times, like, I want a family. We're a family. No, we're a dysfunctional family. So. So one, it's about recognizing family and team. I had a great leader say, we are a great family, but we need to be a better team. Which meant they had a lot of love and support, A lot of love and support, unconditional love. But they needed to challenge each other, challenge each other to make each other better. This was a billion dollar company, multi billion dollar company that ran like a big family. But they had to add accountability. So they brought me in to talk about love and accountability under positive leadership. It was really cool because this company had operated for so many years in this way of family. Now they had metrics and there was performance and there's accountability and they didn't know how to deal with it. So we talked about it. It was so interesting. Very much like a church. So you gotta be both. It is about being a family and a team. Now the family is the love we have for each other. That's never going to go away. We're going to love each other and support each other. And guess what? If you don't work here anymore, we still want to love on you and support you. You may not just be the right person for this job, but we consider you a member of our family because we're always going to love you. You may not be in the team, but you'll be a member of my family. And that's different. Kerry. I walked in one day and my son's girlfriend is my social media coordinator. My son works for our company and he was, he's doing sales and they were both not doing their jobs. So I walk in and I could tell right away by the way. And my New Yorkness came out and I this, the accountability came out. I said, I want you guys to know I love you guys. I said, I love you. You're my family. But I will fire my family right now is what I said. I will fire you guys. I go, I have no problem firing my family is what I said. And you could tell their eyes, like, open. I'm like, I will fire my family. And. And they got scared very quickly because I told them, like, I will fire you from your job, but you will always be my family and I will always love you, but I may not have you work with me or for me anymore. And I think that's the difference. Does that make sense?
- [47:08]
Carrie Newhoff
You know what, I have never heard that. And you're right. The church is one of those rare organizations where you can leave the team but still be part of the family. Because if you have a thousand people at your church and 10 staff, 15 staff, great, you can be part of the family. You're just not part of the team. I think that might be my new answer. TM John Gordon, moving forward. Okay, last question for you. This has been so helpful. This is exactly what our audience needs right now. What breaks your heart when you see leaders with their team and you're like, oh my goodness. When you see how they run their team, what's the one thing that's on your heart that's like, guys, just stop.
- [47:47]
John Gordon
What breaks my heart is leaders that are more focused on themselves than their team, that they're not self aware, that they will talk a great game from stage, but they won't live and breathe it. And so their team is actually operating and living in fear and they're not feeling the love of their leader. I, for years when I was younger, my wife was like, you're great out in the world, but yet we get the brunt of your negativity. This was before I became a Christian and a follower of Jesus. And it was a great moment for me to change, to know I wanted to be the same person with my family, even better with my family than I am out in the world. So I want your team as a leader to be able to talk great about you. You don't want the congregation to think you're awesome and your team is scared of you. That's the scary part.
- [48:42]
Carrie Newhoff
And you do see that you get behind a lot of closed doors.
- [48:44]
John Gordon
You see that behind a lot of closed doors, there's no alignment between who the person on stage is and who the person is off stage. So what breaks my heart is that just. And leaders in general, leaders in business, that they're not willing to change, they're full of fear, and they're not willing to lead from a position of love and faith. And if you do that, if you empower your team, they will perform at a higher level. If you set it up the right way. You don't have to lead with fear. You have to lead with accountability and love and standards like we talked about. And it makes your leadership so much easier. Whenever I have an issue with a team or a team member, I always have to look at myself first. Did I not set this up the right way? And did I create an environment that didn't allow it to produce fruit? And usually, if I set things up the right way, it works great. If I set things up the wrong way, then I have to now go back and say, hey, I messed up here. Let's talk about this situation issue and get on the right footing going forward.
- [49:45]
Carrie Newhoff
So I think that's too true. No, you're absolutely right. Well, there's a lot in the new book. It's a parable, too, if you enjoy parable books. Really, really good. It's called the Seven Commitments of a Great Team. I think it's going to help a lot of leaders, John. It's available everywhere. If there's a web page, website or social media channel you want to direct people to. Where would you direct people to?
- [50:07]
John Gordon
Sure, it's seven commitments.com, the number seven. And then commitments.com we got a bunch of resources. We got an action plan for you to implement this.
- [50:15]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, you mentioned the checklist, right?
- [50:17]
John Gordon
Yeah, the checklist. Our goal is just to help you build a stronger, more united, connected team. That's why I wrote the book. I wanted teams to be connected, committed. I saw the power of that. I see so many teams that are not committed, not connected. And I know that this is a book that's going to help you and your team become stronger. And you can also do this with your family, too, which is really cool. If you actually apply these Seven Commitments to your family, you'll see great fruit as well.
- [50:42]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, I'll tell you, there have been very few leaders I've interviewed who have been in as many team situations as you have been over your lifetime, your career, and still going. And what a rare vantage point to be able to offer insights. And a lot of stuff clicked in my mind over these last 40 minutes or so. So 45. Can't thank you enough, John. Till next time. Appreciate you so much.
- [51:07]
John Gordon
Appreciate you, Carrie. Thanks so much.
- [51:08]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, I hope that was helpful. It's a new framing, isn't it? So if you want more, you can get show notes. And as you probably know, if you're a regular listener, you can now get them in the Art of Leadership Academy absolutely free. Just create a free account. We have got. I don't know, pushing 10,000 leaders in the Academy right now. We're so excited for that. And you can find that@theartofleadershipacademy.com or click the link wherever you're listening and you can get them for free by creating a free account. Also, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend, send it to your team, or leave a rating and review wherever you're following this podcast. And if you hit the follow button, I'm so grateful for that. Coming up, next episode we have Julian Lowe. He's a pastor in la. We talk about all kinds of fascinating issues. Also coming up, speaking of la, Rick Warren I'm going to do that solo episode where I talk about my last 18 months. I actually have flipped the mic. Sean Morgan's going to interview me. Hope you find it helpful. I've learned a lot over these last 18 months. Also coming up, Mark Clark, Faith Yuri Cho, Eric Geiger, Judah Smith than Dr. Les Parrott, and a whole lot more. So if you have enjoyed this episode, please share. And in the meantime, thank you so much for listening. Wherever you are. This means the world to me that you would tune in, that you would share this episode and give us some feedback. I'm on the road a lot this fall, so if you're in a city where I'm going to be, come up and say hey and thanks for listening. If the conversation was helpful, let us know. And I hope our time together today has helped you identify, identify and break a growth barrier you're facing. Hey, before we go, pastors, I know how hard it can be to keep your sermons fresh and relevant, especially when you are preaching week after week after week after week. So whether you're hitting writer's block or you're in a rush trying to put the finishing touches on your sermon, it can be hard. And so I want to help. I've created a 10 step preaching cheat sheet. Actually, I just totally revised it. After decades of preaching, I've simplified my sermon prep into a series of steps and reminders. Now updated, they're engaging, relevant, memorable, and ready for preaching in Today's culture. It's 10 simple prompts with examples that you can start using as early as today for next Sunday. So start transforming your preaching. Visit preachingcheatsheet.com, get your new copy for free. Even if you downloaded this a year ago or so, we've had 40,000 church leaders download it. It's updated. Check it out. Preachingcheatsheet.com to download your copy absolutely free.