CNLP 756 | Preaching Secrets That Actually Work: 90 Minutes of Strategy, Theology, and the Art of Preaching with Mark Clark and Carey Nieuwhof

Summary

Podcast Summary: Preaching Secrets That Actually Work — Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast #756 with Mark Clark (September 23, 2025)

Episode Overview

In this rich and practical episode, host Carey Nieuwhof and renowned preacher Mark Clark reveal 90 minutes’ worth of actionable strategies, theological insights, and practical secrets behind the craft of effective preaching. The conversation draws on decades of preaching experience from two very different yet highly respected communicators. Both dig deep into their processes, pitfalls, theories, and stories, equipping preachers and communicators—whether in church, business, or leadership—to better captivate and impact their audiences. Special attention is given to humor, storytelling, sermon structure, authenticity, the role of AI, and balancing church and unchurched audiences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Evolution of Preaching Styles and Preparation

• Mark Clark describes his journey: from meticulously prepping youth sermons over weeks (“I would just go down to the lake... say it all out loud in front of my car and preach it to my girlfriend.” [04:29]) to handling weekly demands while retaining deep prep time.
• Even with experience, both emphasize the need for rigorous preparation, rehearsing out loud especially for newer preachers, and continually refining the manuscript.

2. The Power and Craft of Humor and Storytelling

• Humor is not about jokes but about telling honest, funny stories. Jokes can backfire but well-timed, authentic stories connect powerfully.
  • Mark Clark: “Jokes are dangerous for preachers. You tell a joke and it dies... But if you tell a funny story and you’re hitting the cues, people laugh and are with you.” [06:47]
• The intentional use of particular words (e.g., “hooker” vs. “prostitute” for comic value [07:14]) and the importance of studying comedians, timing, and crowd engagement.
• Stories bridge to impactful truths. Mark’s “play and punch” method: disarming with laughter, then pivoting to deliver the challenging truth. [13:13]

3. The Continuous Collection of Illustrations

• Life events are constantly gathered as material: “I’ve got the Google doc open for two or three weeks in a row, whenever life happens, I’m just filing it.” [14:26]
• Mark shares how stories—even humiliating ones—become parables for humility or gospel truths.

4. Sermon Preparation: Time and Technique

• Both agree 8–10 hours/week is standard at their current stage; early preachers may need double or more.
• Prepping involves reading, manuscripting, cutting, rehearsing, and seeking humor or fresh takeaways late in the process.

5. Measuring Sermon Effectiveness

• The Holy Spirit often works unpredictably: sometimes dull-feeling sermons spark the most transformation.
• Real feedback comes less from staff and more from authentic, unsolicited reactions—from Instagram shares to overheard café conversations. [20:55]
  • Carey: “If it takes you and I, at this stage, 40 hours to write a message, we don’t know how to write a message.” [17:50]

6. The Art of the Sermon Introduction

• Reject the “old school” intro (“tell them what you’re going to say”); get to the point with impact.
  • Start with a question, story, or bottom line. “Do you ever worry about money at night?” instantly connects. [30:05]
• Vulnerability and authenticity in intro stories create instant rapport, giving listeners “permission to be messed up and broken.” [25:06]

7. Levels of Transparency: Wound, Scab, Scar

• Share only from scars or scabs (not fresh wounds)—share stories that have healed or are healing, so you can be helpful, not simply bleeding on stage. [28:24]

8. Making Sermons Memorable

• Bottom lines that linger (“Like is an emotion, love is a decision.” [34:09]), keep points simple and sticky.
• Emotional connection sometimes matters more than information recall—“how it made them feel” is what stays.
• Mark Clark: “Preaching to the affections... you make them motivated to change.” [39:36]

9. Reading the Room and Emotional Intelligence

• EQ is vital; keep house lights up, watch for audience response to gauge resonance, pivot when necessary.
  • Carey: “You can see what the Holy Spirit is doing… when you deliver it and it’s like, well, this is a piece of lead… or this is really resonating.” [42:07]

10. Debunking Preaching Myths (Clarity vs. Depth)

• Clarity is not watering down; clarity is kindness. “Clarity allows you to see the depth.” [48:31]
• Use normal language, avoid in-house jargon, and explain biblical context simply to include all.

11. Authenticity and Learning From Failures

• Both share candid preaching disasters: misreading audiences, trying to be someone else, or flopping with forced styles/stories. [52:04]
  • Carey: “When you’re trying to be somebody you’re not… you bomb.” [54:38]

12. Serving Both Churched and Unchurched Audiences

• Avoid preaching “just to church people” or “just to seekers”—preach to people with real problems.
• Use simple context and practical application; introduce characters and stories in relatable terms. [61:04]
  • Quote: “Every week you’re calling... both of those people are lost in their own way. There’s two ways to be lost, not one.” [58:52]

13. Ideal Sermon Length

• Aim for 30–40 minutes; trim excess. “Leave them wanting more.” [64:51]
  • Carey: “Five minutes of boring is five minutes too long. 60 minutes of fascinating is not fascinating enough.” [64:50]

14. Ethics and Practical Tips for AI in Sermon Prep

• Use AI for brainstorming, outlining, or critique—not to ghostwrite sermons. Authenticity is essential.
• AI may never replicate the depth of humanity in real stories and pastoral moments. “The most AI-proof thing you can do is be more human.” [71:27]

15. The Non-negotiable: Hard Work

• Excellence in preaching requires sacrifice, discipline, and hours of behind-the-scenes rehearsal. [72:26]
  • Mark Clark (quoting Jerry Seinfeld’s chat with Michael Richards): “You were to sacrifice in that room so the audience enjoyed it. That is what the job of the preacher is.” [73:24]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“You play and then you punch... You get everybody all, ‘ha ha ha,' and all of a sudden you go, bam!” — Mark Clark [13:13]

“Jokes are dangerous for preachers... But if you tell a funny story and you’re hitting the cues, people are gonna laugh and be with you.” — Mark Clark [06:47]

“If it takes you and I, at this stage, 40 hours to write a message, we don’t know how to write a message.” — Carey Nieuwhof [17:50]

“Like is an emotion. Love is a decision.” — Carey Nieuwhof [34:09]

“When you’re born, you look like your parents. When you die, you look like your decisions.” — Shared by Mark Clark [37:33]

“Clarity allows you to see the depth.” — Carey Nieuwhof [48:31]

“You can’t change the world by minding your own business.” — Mark Clark [77:01]

“The most AI-proof thing you can do is to be more human.” — Carey Nieuwhof [71:27]

“Your job is not to enjoy your little life... You sacrifice for these people… those people deserve great… you won't do it because it's too much hard work...” — Mark Clark [73:29]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:10] Early sermon prep habits and evolution
• [06:19] Humor, storytelling, and learning from comedians
• [10:23] Integrating humor into theological content
• [14:26] Continuous illustration gathering and sermon prep time
• [18:59] Recognizing sermon impact and gathering feedback
• [22:53] Introduction strategies and connecting with the audience
• [25:06] Vulnerability: scars, scabs, and wounds
• [34:09] Creating memorable bottom lines and emotional resonance
• [41:27] Reading the room: EQ in practice
• [47:02] Clarity, depth, and communication myths
• [52:04] Preaching failures and authenticity
• [55:43] Serving both churched and unchurched
• [61:59] Sermon length debate
• [66:54] The role of AI in sermon prep
• [72:26] The necessity of hard work in preaching craft

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Final Takeaways

• Great preaching is an intentional blend of deep preparation, humor, authentic vulnerability, practical language, and relentless hard work.
• Clarity is not a compromise—it is a vital kindness that amplifies depth.
• Both superlative artistry (stories, humor, EQ) and tactical precision (bottom lines, message structure, AI tools) are essential for sermons that transform lives.
• No matter your preaching style, the sacrifice behind the scenes is what allows you to meaningfully serve from the stage.

For further resources, check out the new Art of Preaching Course by Carey and Mark, and visit theartofpreaching.com.

*Summary by an expert podcast summarizer. For more leadership insights, visit [careynieuwhof.com](https://careynieuwhof.com/).*

Transcript

[Cary Newhoff]

The Art of Leadership Network.

[Mark Clark]

It was almost like he left some of that in me to give the people permission that I'm in front of. And so all that I'm saying is people working on their preaching. It's like, what is that thing?

[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast.

[Cary Newhoff]

Cary here.

[Podcast Host]

And I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, my good friend Mark Clark is back and we talk about the fact that 83% of Americans say preaching impacts their decisions decision on a church home. And a lot of you are preachers and even if you're not a preacher, well, pretty much everybody who's a leader communicates, right? You're sending emails. You have to make that presentation to the team. You got to convince somebody to sign up and volunteer. How do you do that? Well, well, Mark is one of the best communicators I know of in this generation. He absolutely mesmerizes me every time I hear him speak. That's not an exaggeration. And I've known him for over 10 years. And so we talk about the preaching secrets that actually work. So he and I had just this wrapped up filming our brand new course, the Art of Preaching. We rethought it from the ground up and what we're bringing you today on the podcast is 90 minutes of strategy, theology and the art of preaching with Mark and me. So you're gonna hear a little bit more from me on this. Mark founded Village Church, a multi site church with locations in multiple cities across Canada. It's actually amazing if you know our country. What God did through Mark and now has moved on to become one of the senior pastors at Bayside Church in Sacramento, California where he is preaching to thousands of people every weekend. He's the author of Problem of Jesus, Problem of God and his newest book, the Problem of Life. And he has an amazing family. He's just a great guy and a really good friend. I think you're gonna enjoy this. Hey, if you are new to the podcast, welcome. Maybe you're a new preacher or maybe you just got your first up. Hey, we are so glad you joined us today. If you hit the follow button, wherever you are, this does a couple of things. Number one, make sure you don't miss an episode. Number two, helps the podcast grow as more and more leaders track with it. And if you want show notes, we've got a thriving community of over 10,000 leaders in the Art of Leadership Academy where you'll find the show notes and create a free account by going to carynwhoff.com shownotes they'll give you a couple of prompts. No credit card required, just jump in. That has grown exponentially over the last few months. And I just want to thank all of you who have moved from the crowd to the core to the community to be part of that. So we'll jump into my conversation with Mark All About Preaching. Got a few episodes about preaching coming up. And in the meantime, let's hear from our trusted partners, preachers. What if the next time you stepped on stage, you knew your message would be clear, your delivery would be sharp, and your words would stick, right? Sometimes for months or even years. Well, I've got an exciting announcement. On September 22, the updated and expanded Art of Preaching course launches. Now, Mark Clark and I built it on the foundation of the original course, but the new version goes way deeper, adds fresh tools, and gives you a proven plan to transform your preaching. It's rebuilt from the ground up so you'll learn how to get ahead in your sermon prep, how to use humor and storytelling that actually works, how to build a teaching team that's aligned and effective, and even how to leverage AI to make your prep sharper and much, much more. It's a whole new course, so most preaching resources provide inspiration and they don't offer practical skills you need for Sunday morning. Or they hand you a formula that worked for someone else or a decade ago, but it might not be a fit for you. The Art of Preaching gives you the ins strategies and tools to transform your skill set and develop your gifting. So, Mark, September 22nd on your calendar and get ready for a proven step by step roadmap to transform your preaching starting the following Sunday. So now to my conversation with Mark Clark. By the way, if you haven't subscribed on YouTube yet, we shot this in Toronto in the same studio where we shot the entire Art of Preaching course. Pretty cool. Look. And make sure you subscribe to my YouTube channel as well. In the meantime, here's the conversation.

[Cary Newhoff]

Well, Mark, both of us have been preaching for years now. I would love to start by asking you, how has your approach changed? I mean, 25 years of preaching, solo preacher, church plant. What was it like then? What's it like now?

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, man, when I started, especially when I started the church, I mean, my early sermons were youth group sermons. And so I would spend weeks and weeks and weeks prepping that one sermon. I mean, it was like I got to preach three times a year at the youth group. Or the one time was I got to the big church, because it was youth day and they used to let the youth band play the worship. Yeah, they put me up there. So I literally prepped this thing for like, you know, two months. And I would just go down to the lake near my house and like, say it all out loud in the front of my car and preach it to my girlfriend. You know, all of that. And it just every. So by the time I was up there, every three story and da, da, da. And you know, all of that. And so now obviously you don't have that, you know, that freedom. You gotta flip it around every week. So. But yeah, man, I think the only big difference is I still put all the time and the energy into the prep, the reading, the manuscripting it out, you know, getting it to 10 pages, getting it down to four or five pages on Saturday, and really sifting through it, memorizing, preaching it out loud, hearing the stories, hearing, okay, how's this point gonna land? How's that joke gonna land? All. All of that. The only difference would be, I think, for 10 years, and this is what I would say to up and coming preachers. I would do it out loud for like three hours on a Saturday night, wake up at five in the morning, do it again out loud for another hour or two before I got up and preached in front of 100 people. Now I could probably get it to the place where I'm more reading my notes and I go, okay, here's what I'm. Here's what I'm going to. Here's what I'm hearing.

[Cary Newhoff]

And then, so you don't have to do as much out loud.

[Mark Clark]

Not as much. But I would say if you haven't been doing it 25 years, stick to the out loud and really work that muscle. Cause it's gonna make you better, which is what we wanna do. We want everyone to be, you know, get as good as they can be.

[Cary Newhoff]

So stories and humor were a part of your preaching from the very beginning? Yeah. Wow.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah. And I think what I found was that humor is very hard. Right. And so what I found to be the case was I would find that people would. Would react when I would tell a story in a funny way.

[Cary Newhoff]

Okay.

[Mark Clark]

And so it's not telling jokes. Jokes are dangerous for preachers. You tell a joke and it dies.

[Cary Newhoff]

Yeah, I've done that.

[Mark Clark]

That's a big, dangerous matzo ball to throw up at the crowd. But if you tell a funny story and you're hitting the cues along the way, then people are gonna laugh and they're gonna be with you. And then, you know, and then just really work when it comes to. I mean, we could do a whole half podcast on this. But when it comes to humor, you have to be super intentional and study the greats, the comedians who. There's certain words you choose that are funnier than other words.

[Cary Newhoff]

You know, what's an example of a funny word?

[Mark Clark]

So example of this is like, I tell this story when I preach about this joke that I told, and I use the word hooker. And when I say hooker, it's the last word I say, and it boom. It hits the crowd. Ha ha. And they laugh just because the word hooker sounds funnier than prostitute.

[Cary Newhoff]

Right, right.

[Mark Clark]

So if I go, you know, whatever. But so it's like right down to the granular details of, like, how does a word sound on the ear? How does it when I'm telling this story? And then. So I know every time I tell a story to an American audience, and I'm trying to tell them, I'm Canadian, and I make a joke about the fact, like, I say, you know, you know, I'm Canadian, because blah, blah, and then I'll be. I'm polite. And then da, da, da, and sorry, you know, and then the laugh, right? Because it's like, oh, Canadians are so funny because they always say sorry. And that's kind of our. You know, or to Americans, it's called sorry, not. Yeah, we say it wrong.

[Cary Newhoff]

Sorry about that.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, yeah, sorry. And so they even, like, even thinking through, I know exactly what to do. I'm gonna hit that beat. Everyone's gonna laugh. You know, I tell stories about my Tourette's. I tell stories about my upbringing, and I make this joke about, you know, my dad didn't want my brother's name to be Matthew because it was biblical. But then four years later, they had me, and he called me Mark, and I let it go. And people laugh, and I go, so clearly this guy had never opened up a Bible before in his life. Because my middle name's Andrew. My brother's middle name is James. So we got four disciples knocked off before anybody even knows it. And the audience is laughing. There's just a way of collecting those words and hearing it over, you know, So I just think really working on that craft, super important for the community.

[Cary Newhoff]

You bring a crowd down, like, it's so funny. It's just funny to do that. It is a lot of fun.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

Who are some of the comedians you study and what do you learn from them?

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, that's great question. So I mean, some of the comedians, we probably can't. Some of them. No, no, no. I mean. I mean, there's great. The great comedians where you're listening to. I mean, the problem is all these guys are canceled. Oh, so I can't. I probably can't even.

[Cary Newhoff]

You probably can't even. So let me just say. But what have you learned from these canceled comedians? So we're going to keep rolling here.

[Mark Clark]

Yes, yes. What I learned from comedians is exactly that. The way to tell a story, the way to pause at the certain times, the way to use certain words, and the crowd connects to them. And I think. Here's what I've seen it do in my preaching A. It makes preaching more fun for the preacher, right? If all you're doing is just. You have tense content for 40 minutes and you've got to remember it all, and you've got to theologically makes all these points, you're going to have less of a fun time doing what you're doing. But if you have it, and this is the reciprocal, this is the kind of flywheel, right? You have fun at what you're doing, you're gonna be better at what you're doing. And so if you're funny and you can and the crowd gives you some laughs, then you like it, and then you like what you're doing more, and then you get better at what you're doing. And so I'm constantly looking at a message going, okay, if by Saturday, just to get super practical, if by. Cause I preach a Saturday five o' clock service now.

[Cary Newhoff]

Yep.

[Mark Clark]

Okay. So if by Saturday at noon, my sermon's set and I have the theology and I have the doctrine, but it's.

[Cary Newhoff]

Still too heavy, a little too stale.

[Mark Clark]

I'll just sit there and stare out the window and go, what happened to me this week? That's funny. Like, I'll try to find the smallest, smallest thing. So this happened to me at Easter. Just, you know, this last Easter, it just. The sermon was good, but it just didn't have those light, humorous moments yet. So I sat and stared out the window, and I realized that the day before, I have this boxer dog, okay? So this boxer is a maniac, and she's just stupid. She just eats everything. See, even the word stupid is funny, right? It's funny stupid. It has two syllables. Rather than the dog is dumb gets into mischief, like, whatever, so the dog is stupid. So this is exactly what I said to the crowd. Exactly how I'm saying it to you. This is how I say it to the crowd, I set it up for them. And so I said. And I go, you know, whatever. This is a boxer dog. And so my wife has cooked. Has made. Baked 300 cupcakes for this event we have to go to. So I get home, and they're all sitting on the dining room table. And this dog will eat anything. And so I get through the day, and my wife looks at me, and my kids are lined up at the. My two daughters are lined up, and my other daughter's in the other room. And my wife looks at me and says, here's the deal. I'm going out for two hours, okay? And all I'm asking you to do is to sit on that chair right there. I don't want you to move for two hours. Cause if you move, this dog is gonna eat those cupcakes. And if this dog eats those cupc. Unforgivable. I will never forgive you of this sin. So she says, eat. You gotta sit at the. I don't care if you need a drink. I don't care if you need to go to the bathroom. Do it all now. Cause for the next two hours, you are on that chair. Cause if that dog eats those cupcakes, blah, blah. So I'm, like, sitting there, and I'm listening, and all I hear is my oldest daughter, Sienna, from the other room, yell out, stop giving him all these instructions. You're setting him up for failure. And she's like, this is going to be a sermon. Illustration. This is what she yells. And just the concept of, you're setting me up for failure. Of course, the crowd laughs. And then I kind of followed up by going, like, how. What kind of lowest common denominator must these people think of me? How stupid must they think I am? My family, they have to give me all these instructions. Because I have three daughters at home, which means I have a wife, three daughters, which means I live with four mothers, right? And they constantly tell me what to do, and they constantly tell me what I do wrong. And the cousin. And this is. Guys, what is wrong? You know? So I tell these stories, and it's the way the story unfolds. It's the setup. It's the certain things. And the crowd has a fun time. And that chemical thing that happens when they're laughing goes through their body. And then they warm. They hit the gospel. They bring their friends. And when I meet them, they're always like, man, you just. You give us the heart. Because what happens is. Here's my little. Someone pointed this out to me recently. They said, here's your style. You play and then you punch. So you get everybody all, ha, ha, ha, ha. And all of a sudden you go, bam. Like, you. Like. I'll tell that story about me being dumb, and I'll be like, it's not hard for me to be humble when you live with women like that. And everyone's laughing, and all of a sudden, my pivot will be. But some of you walk in here and you think you're so cool, that you're so beautiful, that you've got the nice car, the nice job, that you think you can get into heaven just by being you. But here's the problem. You're not being humble enough to realize that you are broken, too. And you are. The only way into the kingdom is by being humble enough.

[Cary Newhoff]

Play and punch. Play and punch. How did the story end? The doggy. The.

[Mark Clark]

I sat there at that table, and I just didn't let that dog get. I won. I had victory. It was a good day. I did what I was told to do.

[Cary Newhoff]

But the fun is in the story telling. It's in the telling.

[Mark Clark]

Yes.

[Cary Newhoff]

Cool. How many hours on average would you put into a typical sermon?

[Mark Clark]

I'd probably say, well, you know what? It's like you're kind of dripping in information all the time.

[Cary Newhoff]

You know, hey, a month from now, I'm gonna be dealing with X. Yeah.

[Mark Clark]

So I got the Google Doc open for two or three weeks in a row, and whenever life happens to me, I'm just filing it, you know? I'm in the grocery store and someone says this. And I was walking through Target with my daughter the other day, and a woman walked up to me, and she says, mark, your sermons changed my life. And I'm like, wow. She's like, yeah, I just can't. And I'm like, yeah, what's up? Like this.

[Cary Newhoff]

Let's talk about this. Let's talk.

[Mark Clark]

Let's nail this. Tell me more. Tell me more. And she's talking to me, and then I walked away. And I looked down the aisle of Target, and there's these two guys. Of course, I got Tourette's, which means I make these weird noises. And my tic right now is I go like this.

[Cary Newhoff]

I go, mm.

[Mark Clark]

Right? I hear this dumb little noise. So this lady tells me that I changed her life, and I'm the greatest thing that's ever happened. And I'm, like, feeling it a little bit. And I walk past two aisles down, and I look, and there's just two teenage boys and the whole aisle Just reeks like weed. Okay? They just smoke the joint outside or whatever. And they're in the chip aisle, of course. Like, give me the munchies, you know, whatever. And they look up at me and they're just like. And they make my honking noise right in my face. Cause I must have just made it. And so now they're making fun of me. And I'm like, you bunch of losers. I just feel like punching you both in the face for the cause of Christ right now. But I can't, you know? And here's the thing. I tell that story and I look at the audience and I go, this is how God humbles me. The minute I feel cool, the minute I feel like I've succeeded in life, he grinds me down to the ground, goes, you loser. Who do you think you are? You have to become like a. To get into the kingdom. Blessed are the poor in spirit who don't bring anything to the table. So when those moments happen and I'm walking through Target on a Monday, I jot that down and I know it's going to be a sermon. I don't know. I don't know how it's going to be used yet. But all it probably existed as was Target teenagers. That's how it got punched into the Google Doc. And then it becomes. It takes on a life of its own. And, you know, sometimes you'll come out of the text, sometimes you. You put it in there a little bit. Cause you're looking for a moment of humor. And at that point, I looked at the crowd and I said, you are here and you think you have your whole life together and you've never bowed down to anybody because you're not humble enough. You got too much pride in your life. And then I use those stories to talk about how I get humbled. But you gotta pay attention to the humility. Because when God does that, he's trying to say something about what I'm not. And some of you walk in here and you think you got your whole life together and you'll never humble yourself and bow down like these women did and the people. And then all of a sudden, I hit them with a hard truth. And they're like, they're more willing to take it in than if I just got up and went, Some of you are not humble. You must be humble. Next point, you know. So coming back to your question, how long does it take? I'm dripping in experiences and stories all week. I formalize it. It's probably 10. I would think 10 hours by the time it's written, edited, memorized.

[Cary Newhoff]

10. Yeah, it used to be more. I've noticed. Yeah, it used to be more for me, too. And I remember when I transitioned from founding to teaching pastor at our church, I was talking to. I'm not gonna drop a name, but a very well known preacher. And I'm like, yeah, it's just not Charles Spurgeon. Yeah, Charles Spurgeon. Exactly. I dropped by, dropped by to see Spurgeon. Yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Clark]

You and Spurgeon hanging out.

[Cary Newhoff]

So when Spurgeon and Whitfield and I, you know, we're getting together. No, what it was, I just said, you know, it's just not a full time job. I gotta find other things to do. And he looked at me, he's a few years older than me, and he just said, if it takes you and I, at this stage, 40 hours to write a message, we don't know how to write a message. And I think, you know, if you're starting out, it's probably 20, 25 hours. And I would say I'm now eight to 10 hours. Because you've also got all these reps. You also know the shortcut. Not the shortcuts, but you're not spinning your wheels as much in the ditch. So.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

Mark, how do you personally know when you preached a great sermon? Like, how do you know that this dropped? Because I know for me, you and I, we've just done this new art of preaching course, right?

[Mark Clark]

Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

And I know for me, I'm not the best judge of it. Like, there'd be times where I'm like, I nailed that. And God seems to do nothing with the message. Other times, I'm halfway through going, this is awful. I don't know what to do. And woman says, change my life. Or five years later. Remember that sermon you did on when you said, it's like, no. So it can be really difficult to know when you've nailed it. How do you know?

[Mark Clark]

Well, to your point, I think it's impossible almost, because the Holy Spirit, you know, God, what is that old line? God writes straight with crooked lines. It's like, you could take the worst sermon. I mean, I remember there was a sermon I preached years ago, and it was one of those, like, Jonah, Jonah sermons where, like, I love preaching.

[Cary Newhoff]

Jonah.

[Mark Clark]

No, but it was like a Jonah sermon in the sense of, like, I.

[Cary Newhoff]

Ran away from it.

[Mark Clark]

Those people that I'm preaching at, I'm miserable, I'm in a bad mood. I walk out from backstage, I'm like.

[Cary Newhoff]

Oh, that kind of Jonah sermon. Yeah.

[Mark Clark]

This guy hasn't tithed in three years. This guy's been sitting in the same chair his whole life. I don't even wanna preach to these people. So they're like, you have to. I'm like, so I go out and preach like, God hates you. Figure it out. I don't know. You know, just leave. God likes you. Yeah. And they're like, oh, my gosh, we need to train our ushers in how to lead people to Christ. Because there was so many people that came to Christ that we couldn't keep up with it. And I'm like, wait, and that was.

[Cary Newhoff]

A sermon where you were basically running one.

[Mark Clark]

Nothing. Just a garbage sermon in my. So what the Holy Spirit does with these things is crazy to your point, But I think when you see transformation in people's eyes, when you see people in the seats, like, physically, I mean, they could be crying. They could be just. You could see them processing, going, man, okay. You can see them writing notes in their Bible. You can hear stories, you know, on Instagram. It's interesting. You have these unsolicited people in the balcony who take video of that one minute and then repost it and say, y' all gotta listen to this. Just change our life. Or they put all their notes on Instagram and say, here's what I got out of the sermon. And that's just raw. You know what? That raw feedback. Right. Cause, you know, as we talked about in the Art of Preaching course, like, the feedback from your staff is oftentimes littered with, you know, other job and.

[Cary Newhoff]

What is it? Highest paid person in the room. Like Hippo.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

It's like, so if you can fire them.

[Mark Clark]

Yes.

[Cary Newhoff]

They're probably not gonna tell you that was a stinker. You really did not prepare. Right.

[Mark Clark]

I remember, though, I was at Starbucks one time, and these two ladies were chatting, and they're like, have you been over to that village church? You know, when I was.

[Cary Newhoff]

This is when you were in Vancouver Village? Yeah.

[Mark Clark]

And I was at Starbucks, and I was just working, you know, under my hood or something, and they had a whole conversation about me and the church, and it just was totally raw because.

[Cary Newhoff]

And they didn't know you were there, right?

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, it was great. It was great to hear. It was interesting.

[Cary Newhoff]

What did you learn?

[Mark Clark]

Oh, nothing. I didn't.

[Cary Newhoff]

That's a personal. Next question. Next question. Yeah, you know, it's interesting, too. I find the best way to know whether it landed. Sometimes you just know. Often you don't. But if you Want to grow as a communicator? The best way to grow as a communicator is to get a fellow communicator to critique your sermon. Like, if you look at my message or someone else who preaches regularly looks at my message, and they watch, they listen, and they're like, hey, if you'd move that story up and twisted it this way, I think it would have been more effective. The average person, they have one category. It was good or it wasn't. It was like, how'd it do? It was good.

[Mark Clark]

Why?

[Cary Newhoff]

Don't know. Don't know, Right? I don't think that one hit the mark. Why? You don't know. You can't grow from that. So by getting other communicators. And that could be, like a colleague in your denomination. That could be someone on your staff. If you don't have a staff, you know, you ask a friend or if you're in a teaching team to get that kind. But you have to be open, right? When people say to you, you gotta receive it, hey, this did not really work out. You gotta sit there open, humbly going, all right, all right, I receive that. Rather than defending yourself and trying to do that, I wanna break down sermons a little bit because we teach, we go way into the deep end in the art of preaching course. But I want to talk about sermon introductions. That opening minute or two is really pivotal. What's the best way to use it?

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, I mean, I don't agree with the old preaching course. That said, tell them what you're going to say. Say it, then tell them what you said. It's like, no. By the time you've told them what you're going to say, everyone's bored and checked out and looking at their clock going, I got to get out of here for lunch.

[Cary Newhoff]

Yeah, that's not.

[Mark Clark]

Wrap this up.

[Cary Newhoff]

There is no movie or novel that follows that plot. Yeah. We meet Mark and Carrie. Mark murders Carrie, and then afterwards spend.

[Mark Clark]

Some time traveling to Mordor. And then he will throw his ring into Mordor. Now, let's begin, right?

[Cary Newhoff]

You ruined the mystery, right? You ruined that.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, but so.

[Cary Newhoff]

No, don't do that.

[Mark Clark]

No, just get to it. Everyone's busy. Everyone. Look, the people who are sitting there, their lives are wreck, you know?

[Cary Newhoff]

And you'll tell them that. I'm just sitting there. Your life's a wreck.

[Mark Clark]

I tell them that every week.

[Cary Newhoff]

And you do, actually.

[Mark Clark]

But they find they find a lot of freedom in that, a lot of permission in that, because it's okay to be Correct.

[Cary Newhoff]

It is.

[Mark Clark]

You know, I was talking about someone the other day, and, you know, they said, you know, my wife and I on a stage. My wife and I have never had a fight about money. And I'm just like, see, that's not helpful. I'd rather say, my wife and I fight about money all the time because we're just like you. Because we're normal people like you, and you always fight about money.

[Cary Newhoff]

We were talking about this at dinner last night. I heard that line years ago. My wife and I have never fought about money. And I just thought, well, we fought about money a lot. So when I preached that topic, I said, my wife and I have not only had a fight about money, we've invented topics to argue about. Like, there were topics that didn't exist that we invented so we could argue about it. And when you do that, what do you do? You put yourself. People go, oh, you too?

[Mark Clark]

Yes.

[Cary Newhoff]

Oh, okay. Like, if you've been married for eight minutes, guess what? You've had an argument 100%. You argued on the way to the wedding. You're like, come on.

[Mark Clark]

It's so important. And just on that note, I. You know, when I was a kid, I got Tourette syndrome and obsessive compulsive disorder. Those people who've listened to your pod and heard me on here, but know that, and I've talked about that before. Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

And that's a real thing. That's not like an act.

[Mark Clark]

No, it would not. No.

[Cary Newhoff]

But sometimes people discount that. I disguise my. You know, I diagnosed myself. You did not diagnose yourself?

[Mark Clark]

No, I just want people to know by the time I'm twitching around and making noises, I couldn't diagnose myself. But, but, but, you know, God, I've often said, you know, when I was a kid growing up and I was going through all these crazy things, you go, like, why would God ever allow this to happen in my life? And then you grow up and you realize you're on a stage in front of thousands of people, and you're literally symbolically giving them permission to be messed up and broken and imperfect themselves every week. And. And God has used that almost as. It's almost like my superpower. It's like any kind of pride or ego or anything like that that people would sniff out in other people. It's not there as much because my whole life is just one big limp of, like, look at me. I mean, there's nothing. There can't be an ego here. Cause I'm a goof. Like, who, you know, whatever. It's like the minute you begin to feel cool, you're like, all right, well, that's out the window. So people then. And as I've talked about that, or just even personified it in people's lives, people have found the craziest permission of just like, I can't believe you think like that. I think that, too. And I never told anybody that. I used to knock on things a certain amount of times, and then if I didn't knock on that and fold the laundry perfectly, then the plane would crash. And so I had to do this, and I had to do that. And I thought, like, that, too. And I never told anybody. And now I've heard you say it for 20 years. I'm free. And it's like, what? Like crazy that. God, there's a reason he didn't, like, fully heal me. It was almost like he left some of that in me to give the people permission that I'm in front of. And so all that I'm saying is people working on their preaching. It's like, what is that thing? You. You did a brilliant thing in the course on the kinds of limps to share and when it's overcharged. Talk about that. That was great.

[Cary Newhoff]

Yeah. Yeah, I've thought about that a lot. Cause we've all been through the wringer, right? And I've had moments, seasons of my life that are not good. And when it comes to vulnerability, like, how vulnerable should you be from the stage, I think, of wound, scab scar. So, you know, we've all got scars. We were kids. It's like, yeah, this is when I fell and hit my head on the table. Or this is. I actually crashed my bike. My right knee now has a really nice scar on it from a couple years ago when got some nice road rash, that kind of thing. So scars healed over a scar is something that you can talk about saying, I had a bike crash, but I've recovered from it, right? And then a scab is, yeah, I got a wound. It's healing. And then a wound is, no, this is gaping. And we may have to go to er. So I think wounds don't talk about your wounds on stage because you don't know how to be helpful. Like, you're on the way in an ambulance to the hospital. That's where your counselor. That's where your inner circle. That's where people like, hey, we're in a crisis right now in my house. Probably don't want to lead with that on a Sunday morning. You might Even want to take the Sunday off. But if it becomes a scab and it's healing over and you can tell it's getting better, then I think you can start to share it. It's fresh. So not all your stories are from 20, 25 years ago. So that's a.

[Mark Clark]

When I was in high school.

[Cary Newhoff]

When I was in high school. Yeah, Exactly. In the 19th century, when I was in high school, when I led that.

[Mark Clark]

Guy to Christ that time.

[Cary Newhoff]

Exactly that one time. You want recent stories, but for vulnerability, it should at least be a scab. And I think I burned out a number of years ago. Or a scar. So there was a time when my burnout, which happened in 2006, it was a gaping wound for a couple of years. Couldn't talk about it. I tried to talk about it. I thought it was a scab. But it turned out to be a wound. And I remember when I finished teaching about it for the first time, I've now written books, I've spoken to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people about it, et cetera, et cetera. It's a scar, right. But I went too early on it. I remember the lead pastor was at the back of the room. I was in Philly. And he came up and he goes, are you okay? Do you need counseling? And I'm like, ooh, that's still a wound. That's not a scab.

[Mark Clark]

And so, great principle. I learned that that's a genius principle.

[Cary Newhoff]

And, you know, you know it's a scab. When you can help people, it's like, you know what? This thing's still healing. But don't put your hand on the stove. Okay? You're gonna burn it like it hurts. But if you're, like, screaming like, ah, am I gonna have to go to the hospital? You probably go get that treated. And then when it scabs over and you can be helpful. The other thing about introductions, I think. Cause one of the things you have, and this is what I like about the course, our friendships, is, you know, you're so charismatic. You've got the ring, as your daughters would say, Right?

[Mark Clark]

No, you do. No, that.

[Cary Newhoff]

Your daughters would not say that.

[Mark Clark]

But dad. Yeah, dad.

[Cary Newhoff]

But anyway, you know, you're very charismatic. You're a great storyteller. You're funny. I'm kind of the bullet point guy, right? I'm logical. That's what I do.

[Mark Clark]

Very funny in your.

[Cary Newhoff]

In my own kind of way.

[Mark Clark]

Very funny.

[Cary Newhoff]

And I find there's three hooks at the beginning of a message. And if I'M on my game. This is what I do. Ask a question, start with a story, or start with a fact, or what we call in the course a bottom line. Right? So I might say, you start with a question, it would be like, do you ever worry about money at night? You know, when was the last time you stayed up at night? And what do you want to do with that question? You want to get something or like, you know, how many of you fought on the way to church today? No show of hands. Okay, all right. Some of you did. Yeah. A bunch of liars. Bunch of liars, right? So. But immediately you've got a felt need and you got a question, and everyone's engaged because people are like, yes or no, right? And most people are like, yeah, we've fought on the way to church before, or whatever. So that's the power of an opening question, the power of a story. Like, you could open up with the target story. And that's just interesting. Cause it's a story, and people want to know, well, what's happening? Where does it go? And then the other thing is a bottom line. So you might start by saying, fixing your mind on Christmas fixes your mind. It's like, well, that, you know, I worked for hours and hours and hours. That's what the message is about. But if you ever find your mind is broken where it's not working, you know, you got a war going on in your mind. Fixing your mind on Christ fixes your mind, or you know what's true?

[Mark Clark]

Come on, Preach.

[Cary Newhoff]

You know what's true. Your boldest moments are your best moments. And you can open up with that. Now, I've done a lot of work to get there, so it's sort of deductive rather than inductive. Inductive. You're kind of leading people down a path. Deductive. You say something, that's true. But it's a lot better than, hey, did you see the game last night? Or a nice day, you know, it's sunny, it's gonna get warm today.

[Mark Clark]

We got the kids camp coming up there.

[Cary Newhoff]

Kids camp coming up. Because you've just blown that real estate. And secondly, your message is probably posted online. Somebody's gonna watch it six months from now, and it's gonna be, what game, what year? Wait, it's snowing.

[Mark Clark]

It's not nice.

[Cary Newhoff]

Right? So you've got that. So that's a way to do it. Okay.

[Mark Clark]

I recently, like, to this point about starting, I came out of the gate, told a story about garbage bins, like, within the first within the first 15 seconds, I was into it. Showing a failure for my life or started with the story a couple months ago. I walked out and I just, I said, hey, welcome to church. I'm Mark, one of the pastors around here. So when I was 20 years old, I worked at Michael's arts and crafts store and you know, $6.85 an hour, big red, big red apron had my name on it. Still couldn't tell you where a googly eye goes for the life of me, no idea. And I'm sitting in the aisle and I just become a Christian and this girl in a wheelchair came by with her mom and they're sitting there looking at stuff. And I looked at her and I hear God say to me something very clear. I want you to walk up to her and tell her in the name of Christ, I want you to get up off that wheelchair. And so I say to myself, there's no way I'm going to do that. And God says, you're gonna disobey me? You're not gonna go over there and tell her I'm gonna heal her right now? And I walk up to this girl, I'm sweating bullets, and she looks up at me from the wheelchair and I look down at her. Anyway, we'll come back to that.

[Cary Newhoff]

I want you to open up your.

[Mark Clark]

Bibles to Romans chapter six. And here's what we're gonna do now. Here's what I did. I preached the whole sermon. You had everybody right, and it's a true story. And I preached a whole 35 minute sermon. The problem was no joke. At the end of the sermon, I prayed like I normally do and da da, da, da, Amen. And I walked off the stage.

[Cary Newhoff]

You didn't resolve it.

[Mark Clark]

And people started screaming from the audience, what happened?

[Cary Newhoff]

What happened?

[Mark Clark]

That's all they cared. They didn't hear a word I said for 35 minutes. All they cared about was that. Isn't that crazy?

[Cary Newhoff]

So that's what you shouldn't do.

[Mark Clark]

You gotta come back to the end.

[Cary Newhoff]

You gotta come back to it. But it's a good inclusio.

[Mark Clark]

People want to leave the church just to find out what happened.

[Cary Newhoff]

Okay, this is a really tough question to answer, but I want to ask it anyway. What makes a sermon memorable? You tell so many stories that people might remember the story, but they forget the point, right?

[Mark Clark]

Well, that's true.

[Cary Newhoff]

It's an occupational hazard. I tell so many points that people forget the story. Okay, so we come at it from different perspectives.

[Mark Clark]

That's amazing.

[Cary Newhoff]

You know for me, where I come from. And I'm blown away by this. So I'll give you a story. Last summer, I was at a surf shop, 15 minutes from my house, running to this guy. You know, when you've led a church for a long time, people look vaguely familiar. And he says to me, he says, carrie. And I'm trying to place him, and then I'm like, okay, I think you're so and so's brother in law. Yeah, I got it. And he says to me, your series 180. Oh, my goodness. He pulls out his keys. He still. We gave out a keychain, like a key tag from that series called 180. It was about turning your life around 180. Then he goes, I still carry it on my key rank. I was blown away. And he goes, that was so good. And he started telling me some of the things I taught in that series. And then he goes, is there any way I can get the message for that? I'm like, dude, that was not quite pre Internet, but that was a long time ago. I don't know where that stuff lives. It's not on YouTube. So I hit up our service programming department. We found it. I went back and looked at the date on that series was 2010, 15 years ago. He's carrying around something. So what was that? I'd gotten into the phase where I worked really, really hard on a bottom line, and he was remembering things I said 15 years ago. For example, I did. Around that time, I did a series on love. And I was really trying to get to the bottom, like, what does Paul talk about when he talks about love? Right? So in our culture, we say, I love a macchiato, and then we say, I love you too, honey. Right? Like it's the same word for everything. Or I love that show. I love baseball. I love this. We love everything. I love plant. I love plant. I love plants. Thank you. Thank you, Brick. Anyway, so we say things like that, right? And in the Greek, it's more nuanced, right? So what do you do? And I thought, you know, and I had this idea, and people have quoted this back to me years later, over a decade later, it's like, like is an emotion. Love is a decision. Because I kind of explained that biblically, you know, there's a difference between like and love. We just have one word that covers the whole thing, and like is an emotion. So you're like, well, I don't like you anymore. I don't like this. I used to like pasta. I don't Eat pasta anymore. I don't like it. Anymore. I don't like it. That's not what love is. Love is not an emotion. Love is a decision. Love is a decision. So when you're like, I'm not in love anymore, it's like, wait, you're talking about liking somebody, you're not talking about loving somebody? Biblically, love is a decision. So you know six simple words like is an emotion. Love is a decision that can live. So I think that's one of the ways to make it memorable. That's probably my best thing I bring to the table. To make complicated issues. Simple in a few words. But you are a genius storyteller and you come up with all kinds of funny stories that literally have people like, when we announce you at our church that you're coming to, people are like, yeah, they announced me at our church. They're like, who? Who? Huh? Huh? That guy? Is he back?

[Mark Clark]

That's you being funny. Like, you have this dry, self deprecating. It's so great. Anyway, so I agree with everything you just said. So I won't reiterate the same point. Do all that. Memorable bottom lines, memorable sentences. I told you one over dinner last night that I heard from another guy.

[Cary Newhoff]

Which you're gonna write a book on one day.

[Mark Clark]

Probably write a book on it one.

[Cary Newhoff]

Day and credit him.

[Mark Clark]

Don't steal it. But. But yeah, the line is, when you're born, you look like your parents. When you die, you look like your decisions. Such a great line.

[Cary Newhoff]

Every time I say that. Such a great line.

[Mark Clark]

And the audience goes, whoa. Right?

[Cary Newhoff]

At dinner last night.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, dinner.

[Cary Newhoff]

There were five of us. I knew it. And we hadn't heard it. And we all paused. It was my wife, Jeff and Leslie Brody, my pastors. And we were all like, ooh, right?

[Mark Clark]

And that's what happens in the audience every time. I'll do it at Connexus when I'm there next. Oh, good, I won't be. Watch what happens. All of that is true. I think the other thing that's true, though, and this is a little bit more, maybe less tangible, but it shows our different styles. Have you seen Inception? The movie Inception?

[Cary Newhoff]

I don't think I have. Christopher Nolan movie. No, I feel like I have.

[Mark Clark]

Have you seen Interstellar?

[Cary Newhoff]

No Christopher Nolan movies.

[Mark Clark]

Okay. This is a terrible example.

[Cary Newhoff]

I know you love me. No, no.

[Mark Clark]

Okay. Shawshank Redemption.

[Cary Newhoff]

Okay. Yes.

[Mark Clark]

Okay.

[Cary Newhoff]

Okay. I've seen that twice.

[Mark Clark]

Twice? What do you mean? I've seen it twice this month.

[Cary Newhoff]

I know.

[Mark Clark]

What do you mean? Okay. You're not.

[Cary Newhoff]

Alright, next question.

[Mark Clark]

Okay, so Mark, here's the point. If I asked you, do you really connect to Shaw Shank, Redemption? Like, yes. It's like, for most people.

[Cary Newhoff]

Well, you would say it's the best movie ever made.

[Mark Clark]

Oh, yes, I know. Shawn Grenupson, the Godfather, Interstellar, Inception, we talk to these people. If I was to say to someone, inception, oh, it changed my life. It's great. Okay, great. So let me ask you a question. What is the character? What is the main character's name? They wouldn't know.

[Cary Newhoff]

Yeah, well, good. I'm in company with him.

[Mark Clark]

Why? Because what they're saying is how it made them feel. Yes. Yeah, that's the thing.

[Cary Newhoff]

You know, it's funny, I remember being like 12 years old and there was a preacher. It was a church basement kind of night. He's like, do you want to give your life to Christ? I gave my life to Christ so many times as a teenager. I'm good for life. Like, it was every time I sinned. It's like, I'm a Christian again. But I remember, and I don't remember who the preacher was and I don't remember what the message was, but I remember how I felt.

[Mark Clark]

And oftentimes the communicator is creating a feel for people where they leave with an impression. And so if you go out, one of the critiques, if I was to critique myself. If you were to go out to a lunch table after one of my sermons, okay. And you had seven people from our church sitting around the lunch table and you said, hey, how was that sermon? They'd be like, oh, my gosh, I want to change, man. I want to. That was amazing. Oh, my gosh. And then you say, okay, cool. What was it about? I'm honestly not sure they could tell you. They'd be like, well, at one point he was doing something about Target. There was definitely some buy. I think it was. Are we in Axe right now, Joey? I think so. But they wouldn't have the memorable lines, they wouldn't have the mnemonic devices to latch onto, but they would have the way it made them feel as an impression. Almost like what Jonathan Edwards said, preaching to the affections. You want to preach to the gut, so you make them motivated to change. And that is a less tactical thing. It's just something you got to work on. My point about the Christopher Nolan thing is Christopher Nolan basically says, look, the last 20 minutes of a movie don't even really need a script. You just need the right music, momentum Cinematography and story. And then you end it and people leave and they go. I don't even know if there was, like, if you watched the last 20 minutes of the Dark Knight. The last 20 minutes of the 70s. Dark Knight was. It could be without a script. Dunkirk. None of these movies need even talking for the last 20 minutes because you're just being carried with the score and things are happening and you. And then, and then the credits come up. You're like, oh, my gosh, I want to watch that again. But you don't even know what they said for the last 20 minutes.

[Cary Newhoff]

So there's art.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, yeah. It's how you make the room. And the individual feel is almost just as important as what you're saying in making them feel that thing.

[Cary Newhoff]

So how do you do that?

[Mark Clark]

Well, that's probably a course. We should probably do a course. Wait a minute, we did do a course. Preaching. Go check it out.

[Cary Newhoff]

No, but you know, you're very good at that.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah. And I, I think there's a certain EQ that you have to have. There's a certain ability to feel the room and where it needs to go. Okay, I'm. I'm losing the left side of the room right now.

[Cary Newhoff]

And you do have the lights up enough to know that. I do. I insist that the house lights are up.

[Mark Clark]

But I don't, I don't like, blaze them.

[Cary Newhoff]

No, no, no. But you want to be able to because you're spoken into those black where you can't see a thing. I like to see the audience because you can see what the Holy Spirit is doing. Because in your head you've got how the message is gonna go before you deliver it. And then you deliver it and it's like, well, this is a piece of lead. This is not going anywhere. And then you're like, ooh, but this is really resonating. And you see people leaning forward, you see a few tears. You see. I'll give you an example. I was preaching on AI which, by the way, never announce that you're preaching on A.I. everybody stays home. Okay.

[Mark Clark]

Of course.

[Cary Newhoff]

So I was preaching on AI Silicon Valley, though. Unless.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

Well, if you're north of Toronto, do not preach on AI. Alright. Anyway, no, there were people at church, bears running around, horses, the runt of the litter, you know, in that series. So I want to talk about AI relationships, you know, in the same way that, like, Jonathan Haidt and people are really concerned about what social media has done to our kids. I'm very concerned about what sexualized Chatbots are gonna do. And chatbots are gonna do to human relationships.

[Mark Clark]

Very specific.

[Cary Newhoff]

There's very specific sexual chat. Example of what you shouldn't do in your preaching. All right, we're good and bad example series sex bots.

[Mark Clark]

It was really high in the Bible by Carrie Newhall.

[Cary Newhoff]

It's a big thing, and it is like. It is like 30% of men have some kind of sexual relationship with the chatbot right now that they create. Yeah, no, this nuts. This is flying under the radar, dude. Under the radar with a chatbot? Yeah. You can go to sites. Listen, I explained it. Nobody was listening to where you. Nobody was listening.

[Mark Clark]

Come on. Okay, go ahead.

[Cary Newhoff]

I don't have one. Okay. I don't care. I don't. Yes, don't tell us more. That's a lot of knowledge. It's a lot of information, isn't it? No. So I'm trying to explain, like, if this is what social media has done to us, you know what happens? Because, you know, as a spouse, you don't always have a great day. You don't always say the right thing. I say the wrong thing on a regular basis to my wife. I'm like, I thought I was helping. I did not help. Right. Well, what happens when you have a relationship with a virtual bot, a girlfriend, and she always says the right thing, and she's trained. She knows exactly what you need to hear. It's like an earworm. And suddenly you're in this relationship, and you know, it's not as good as. I'm preaching this, and I'm sharing the stats. I'm watching every woman in the congregation. You know, the four who showed up. No. We had a pretty full house. Every woman in the congregation is doing this.

[Mark Clark]

They're wondering about it. They want to know.

[Cary Newhoff]

They're horrified, disgusted, upset, angry, and every guy is doing this.

[Mark Clark]

Well, you think the guys in your congregation are having chat boxes?

[Cary Newhoff]

Well, I don't know if they have a porn habit, which, like 90% of guys do, and this is the direction it's going. And you could cut the tension in the room with a knife. And so I slowed down, and I know there are people watching online. I slowed down. And then I'm like, what do you do with this moment? And in that moment, because you prep it, you got all your stats, you got the screenshots, you know, appropriate PG13 screenshots, all this stuff. You got the data, and then you see what it's doing in the lives of people. That's preaching. I'm like, now what? Do I do God? And so the end of the sermon become much more pastoral, much more gentle, much more, hey, this is a moment. And what does it mean to be human in the age of AI? And so that kind of feedback is so important, and you can't get that when you're. I don't care whether you spend 30 hours a week prepping a message, you're not going to know until it lands. And that's when you slow down. That's when you change tone.

[Mark Clark]

Yep.

[Cary Newhoff]

And that's when you never title something about AI in a sermon again.

[Mark Clark]

You say you're preaching about something else.

[Cary Newhoff]

And then you just. That's right. You just slide it in. Just slide it in.

[Mark Clark]

This morning, we're going to do AI.

[Cary Newhoff]

Aliens. Yeah. You did a series on aliens.

[Mark Clark]

I did. Not a whole series, but it's true.

[Cary Newhoff]

All right. Anything else about making a sermon memorable? I think that's great. So there are myths out there, and some people would say clear preaching is watered down preaching. Do you have any thoughts on that, Clarity? Because, you know, the thing under that is I. You know, this has been a pet peeve of mine, so, you know, loaded question mark. But when people go to a church and they hear 40 minutes of things, they don't understand a word. It was like, you know, the Greek exegesis of this and that and the other thing. And they're like, well, I didn't understand it, but it was deep. It was deep. Now. Now, I come from a tribe where things are clear. I work really hard on clarity. And one of the criticisms I've gotten is that clarity is watered down preaching. I don't buy it. What do you think about clarity and depth?

[Mark Clark]

Well, I read the sermons of Jesus, and they're pretty clear. If you hate your brother, you're guilty of murder. If someone slaps you on the one cheek, turn to them the other. I mean, these aren't clandestine or these aren't, like, confusing concepts. They're very clear. So I think clarity. You know, Brene Brown talks about clarity as kindness. I think being kind is great. Why would you want, you know, to muddle something up and make it more complicated than it needs to be is silly. I look at my, you know, my own friends and family growing up weren't Christians. And how are they gonna come to Christ? They walk into a church and we're talking our own language, our own psycho babble, our own, you know, oh, welcome to our fellowship. It's like, what is this, Lord of the Rings, bro? What are we doing here? Like, what? What are you even saying now? Here are the elders, you know, whatever. It's like, what is the nazguler walking out. So it's like, you gotta talk like a normal person. Here's the pastors of the church. Welcome to the community. God, you're here. You know? Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

Clarity is kindness. You know the other thing I just thought about, you go to the US south, you go to a lot of the lakes. They're pretty muddy, right? You can't see the bottom here. We're shooting this in Toronto, Canada. You go to Lake Ontario, which is just south of us in the middle of summer. And the lakes here are very clear. You can see sometimes 50, 70ft down. Clarity and depth.

[Mark Clark]

The seaweed down.

[Cary Newhoff]

There's a lot of seaweed down there. The zebra mussels took care of that. But, you know, I grew up on these lakes too. But, you know, when we're boating out on Lake Simcoe, you can often see 50, 75ft down. And the clarity allows you to see the depth. There you go. Mic drop, mic drop. Let's move on. Next question.

[Mark Clark]

Okay, I agree.

[Cary Newhoff]

Vulnerable for a moment. Can you share a specific time when you completely missed the mark on a sermon? We kind of hinted at this, but I mean, we're not perfect. We make mistakes.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah. I mean, there's been so many times I've been up there and like, I'm bored. I'm bored right now. What is this? What am I doing up here? If I'm bored, they're bored. Why am I obsessed with this point I'm making? Like, just shift gears and get on with it. Anyway, I did this fail. I spoke at this youth conference, which is a very humbling thing when you speak to youth, because they're merciless, right? And they don't, like. I realize I'm a little dated, you know, I'm up there, I'm like now in Forrest Gump, and they're all like, what the heck's a Forrest Gump? You know? And you're like, oh, shoot, I've never turned on TikTok. I don't even know what's going on.

[Cary Newhoff]

Right?

[Mark Clark]

So. But I was up preaching. I was making this point about. So I got my three daughters and we're walking through this forest, and this was a few years ago, walking through a forest. And we're just having a walk near my house, and out of nowhere I see this like 25 year old guy and he runs out of the trees and he's like, whee. And he's dressed up like an elf and he's whee. And he goes by me. I'm like, what is that? And then four other dudes run out and they have arrows and they're like, you have my magic crystals. And they're running around in a circle.

[Cary Newhoff]

Is this for real?

[Mark Clark]

So listen. So I'm like, what is happening? And it's 20 of these people just running around saying, oh. And they're running up to us. You have my crystals. And I'm like, what is happening? So then I sound like, oh my gosh, we're in the middle of a shoot here. This is a movie, this is a TV show. This is a project for college or something. So I said, oh, girls, come over here behind this tree and hide. And one of the guys with the swords walked up, he looked like Aragorn or something. I'm like, what dude, what's sorry to be in your movie shoot. And he's like, no, this ain't a movie shoot. We're on an adventure. I'm like like, well, no, I'm just sorry, you know, we got in your movie shoot. He's like, no, there's no cameras here. I'm like, what are you talking? What are you doing? And then the guy's like, we're larping wee. And I'm like, what the heck's a larping? And so I get on my phone, I like Google LARPing L, A, R P. And it's live action role play. These guys aren't filming anything. They're 24 year old dudes playing wizards. Wow. And I looked at my daughters and I proc'd them aside and I looked.

[Cary Newhoff]

You'Re not getting married to these guys.

[Mark Clark]

And I said to them, you see all that? Never marry that. So I tell that story at the beginning of this youth conference. Well, when I get to the part about never marry that in every adult audience I've ever told that story, they die laughing, right? This youth crowd, I went, never marry that. And they were offended. It was like. And I'm like, what? Because these morons are larping. And I'm like, what is wrong with y'? All? I'm like, how are you? How isn't this funny? And to them it's not funny because that's their world. They actually respect these LARPers and these kids playing Dungeons and Dragons and whatever it is, right? And so I'm like, oh snap. I'm making fun of them. And I've realized this is a fail, man. Like, this is A. Anyway, so no, you misread your audience. I misread my audience.

[Cary Newhoff]

You misread your audience.

[Mark Clark]

You see girls marry those guys. Those are great wizards. I mean, the crowd would be like, yeah, we love you. Preach the gospel.

[Cary Newhoff]

So I had a couple of big fails. One was very early on, I was at seminary and I didn't have a church yet. I was guest preaching in places. And I had just read a book in seminary called Preaching and the Literary Forms of the Bible. And the argument of the book is, you know, if you're reading Proverbs, you need to be a sage. If you're reading the Gospels, you gotta be narrative. If you're, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I wanted to Preach on Psalm 23. I'm like, well, that is a psalm. I have to be poetic.

[Mark Clark]

You rap. You rap.

[Cary Newhoff]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Mark Clark]

Snap, snap.

[Cary Newhoff]

That was like in 1996, shit in a two pack or whatever. But I got up there and I started being poetic and, like, I'm five minutes into the sermon, I'm like, this is flopping, this is flopping. This is flopping.

[Mark Clark]

Give us an example.

[Cary Newhoff]

I wish. I think I burned the note. But it would have been, you know, me trying to be artistic. It would be like, oh, has the Lord ever felt like your shepherd, you shall not be in want.

[Mark Clark]

It's like, nobody talks like that.

[Cary Newhoff]

What is that? That seems kind of weird. And I'm like, that was a dud. So that was a terrible thing that I did.

[Mark Clark]

You put that in the lake of forgetfulness, this sea of forgetfulness. Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

The other one I have done, and this is more recent, is when you're trying to be somebody you're not. So when I started, this wasn't so much preaching because you're in front of the same church, but when I started speaking at major conferences, and I'll be very specific, I remember there was a season seven or eight years ago where I was speaking with John Acuff and Bob Goff and Carlos Whitaker. I mean, those are some of the best communicators in the church world. They're amazing. Or when I'm a guy like you who's funny and telling stories and. And bringing the house down and that kind of thing. And in the back of my mind I'm thinking, why can't I be funny like John Acuff? You know, Bob Goff is negotiating world peace and I have to follow him. I have to follow him, you know? And I remember standing backstage side stage, waiting to go on after Bob Goff before Carlos Whitaker, who's always on some new adventure and his life is so interesting and it's, you know, he's like totally freeform. And in my head I'm saying, I'm the bullet point guy. I'm the bullet point guy. Like, I'm the bullet point guy. All I am. All I am is the bullet point, point guy. And then it hit me. In that moment, you're actually at this conference because you're the bullet point guy.

[Mark Clark]

Yes.

[Cary Newhoff]

That's good that, you know, Bob isn't. Bob tried to be. Bob Goff tries to be the bullet point guy.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

Is going to be a disaster if John Akoff tries not to be funny. If you try not to talk about your Tourette's and your ocd, you're not going to be marked. But if I'm like, you know, I have asthma. Listen to my disease. Like, that's not going to be. It's not going to be funny. I do have. I do have as I go. I grew up with asthma. I grew up with asthma. Where's my puffer? Where's my puffer? I actually do have asthma, but I never talk about it. It's not like Tourette's rocd. So I think the lesson there, you bomb, you can learn from other people, but you don't want to be other people.

[Mark Clark]

No. 100%.

[Cary Newhoff]

All right.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

You and I have both had to.

[Mark Clark]

Be the bullet point guy. It would be a disaster.

[Cary Newhoff]

Well, you would be boring, you know? Yeah, you don't want to be boring. Anyway, based on what you've observed, what is the biggest mistake that people who try to speak to church people and unchurch people make? So. So you're very fortunate. Throughout your ministry, you've had hundreds, thousands of unchurched people in the room. I've been fortunate. Like, over half of our new attenders are self diagnosed unchurched. So, I mean, you're always trying to realize there's somebody new in the room every day. What are some common mistakes you see people make?

[Mark Clark]

I think, I mean, this is the be all, end all answer. But it's like, I think they choose a side, you know, they choose either I'm gonna speak to churched people and really kill that. Cause there's a way to speak to church people which is addictive. It's very easy to throw red meat to lions.

[Cary Newhoff]

You just don't.

[Mark Clark]

There's phrases, you know what to say. There's things you can say that I know, there's certain things. And the liberals and the people will get jacked up. Right? Like, yeah, let's go, bro. You tell em.

[Cary Newhoff]

You tell em.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah. And then preach it. And then. So just. It's addictive to do that. That, you know, but. Or you just.

[Cary Newhoff]

So.

[Mark Clark]

So if you choose to just focus on church people, then you're going to be very theological and you're going to be very doctrinal and you're going to, you know, do all of that. That's great. You'll grow deep and thinking and all that stuff. That's good. But the unchurched people will feel, they'll be like, they'll feel lost, like we talked about earlier. They'll feel unwelcome, lost. You know, all those things locked in.

[Cary Newhoff]

On a family conversation here. I don't belong.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, exactly. On the flip side, if all you do is go unchurched, then you're not really doing discipleship. You might use a verse or something and then you go off on just some latest cultural trends or whatever, right? And what's happening there is you are lacking theological and doctrinal depth in the people because you're just speaking to them about whatever concept and it can get gimmicky and it can get, you know, there's certain eras where certain things work, certain areas where certain things work. You know, us being from Canada, it's very cool being down in the US and where they're like, hey, kind of show us like a posture. Because you already live in a very post Christian culture. And I'm like, well, some of that stuff that we do here, it would never work up there. Like, it would never work in Canada for us to do some of these things that might work in the South. Yeah, right. They're gimmicky, they're, you know, whatever. But up here there's a hermeneutic of suspicion. People are like, oh, that's churchy, gimmicky, silly, Right? And so you can't go. If you go fully just to the unchurched person and you never talk about doctrine or theology or the Bible, then that's not gonna be helpful at all. And you're gonna not do your job as a preacher, which is to expound the text, make it relevant in people's lives, but if you do the other. So I think that's one. It's the fail on both ends is you chose a side and you leaned into that and you only reached those people and you gathered those people. So I think there's a way. And this is what we talk about in the art of preaching course. I think there's a way to do both of those things super well. To quote our patron saint, Tim Keller, you have to every week preach to the older brother and the younger brother. In the prodigal son story you do. Younger brother is the lost, secular, irreligious, non Christian who's spending his money on prostitutes and business. And he's going broke and he's scared and he needs to repent. He needs to come to a place of repentance and come back to the father and the older brother at the end of the story, which is the side we never preach is outside having a party, or he's outside of the party and he never comes into the kingdom. He's resentful because he's the religious brother who's gone to church his whole life. He always does his devos. He sings Hillsong every day. And he doesn't know the father because he doesn't repent. He never becomes humble enough to come into the party. He's the lost one. And every week you're calling, you're saying, both of those people are lost in their own way. There's two ways to be lost, not one. One in e religion and one in religion. Both of them have to repent and come to the father through Jesus and his sacrifice. And if you're doing that every week, I think both are gonna show up.

[Cary Newhoff]

Yeah, I think you're right. I wanna give props to where they're due to. Tim Keller has been so influential. So has Andy Stanley. And I heard Andy say years ago, Andy said, if you preach to people, you'll always have an audience. And if you think about that, you know, there was a time decades ago where it was seeker targeted or, you know, are you about believers or seekers and all that? And I think that was a false dichotomy. And I think the better part is to look at it. I'm preaching to people. And if you look at people, if you think, okay, people are my target, you have the older brother and the younger brother. Well, just because you're the older brother, does that mean you don't have any financial issues? Does that mean you don't have any marriage issues? Does that mean you don't struggle with envy or greed or resentment or anger or revenge or any of that stuff? No, you have it. And as long as you're speaking to the needs that people have, like what they're doing and the other thing too biblically, you might be like, well, we're a believer church and we have all these People who are biblically literate. Well, take them into the minor prophets and see how literate they really are. Right. Do you really know what Nehemiah was doing? What about Hosea? Right. Have you even. Have you read Second Peter? Like, people would be like, no, not really. So. So when you do, you know, to an all skate where you're like, all right, so today we're gonna be talking about King David. He lived about a thousand years before Jesus. He was at the height of power. Israel was an empire. And we find him at a place where. He's on the palace, Ruth. And he's around 60, and he's wondering what to do with his time. What you did is you introduced unchurched people. And what was that? 20 seconds?

[Mark Clark]

Perfect.

[Cary Newhoff]

Unchurched people know. Okay, this is where it's situated. It's 3,000 years ago. Church people are like, oh, that's who David is. Thank you very much.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

And this is where he was before Jesus.

[Mark Clark]

Here's what I loved about what you just said. Thousand years, you modernize it all. You didn't say it was the second empire of Judah, you know, whatever. Of the Northern Kingdom. You said it was a thousand years before Jesus. That helps him with history. He was 60 years old. That's perfect. Because now they're thinking of themselves who's 60, and their own struggles. And, you know. That's beautiful. I love that. Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

And that's like language. And your church people are now up to speed because somebody once, when I was in seminary, I think it was a seminary prophet of mine, said a lot of people who grew up in church, they know the Old Testament, but it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and somebody dropped the puzzle, and all the pieces are all over the ground, and they don't know Noah, Moses, Daniel, Joseph, Deborah. Like, it's all mixed up. And one of your jobs is to help them over time, put the puzzle back together again. But they don't know that, even if you've been preaching for 20 years. Okay, we'll do a little bit of lightning round the proverbial debate. How long should a message be, Mark?

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, I mean, I think 20 minutes.

[Cary Newhoff]

60 minutes? Three hours.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah, we're right in the middle there. Probably somewhere between 22 hours. No.

[Cary Newhoff]

How long should a message be? Because people argue that there are shrinking attention spans. Right?

[Mark Clark]

So I would think if you're less than 30, I mean, I don't know. I mean, you could be less than 30. That's fine. Yeah, I did somewhere between the 30 and 45 minute range. If you're getting into 50, 55 minutes, you better be great, right? So some of the things we talk about in the, in the course is the whole Jim Collins, you know, principle of good to great. Like, the enemy of great is good.

[Cary Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Clark]

And so if you settle it good and you're like, Well, I got 300 people in front of me and I'm preaching 55 minutes, like, cool, like, but could you have 600 people in front of you if you're preaching 35 minutes? Because you're actually. That 15 minutes is pretty rough, you know, whatever. So it's like, do you have the ability to go, man, could I say this in 40 minutes? So I think somewhere in that 30 to 40 range is a great place to try to put yourself. But again, if you're super boring, 30 minutes is going to feel too long. And if you're great, 40 minutes is gonna feel short, which maybe isn't that bad because it's not just one sermon. You have a body of work that you're doing right. It's not like you. It's not like a movie where it's.

[Cary Newhoff]

All gotta fit in 90 minutes, bam.

[Mark Clark]

And then you get to come back next week.

[Cary Newhoff]

I mean, the older I got, like when I was starting out in preaching, I felt like I had to preach Genesis to Revelation and every idea had to fit in. And now what I realize when I. Competing ideas or too many ideas, I'm just like, okay, that'll be for part four, or I'm gonna park that on the side of the road and one day I'm gonna pick it up and I'm gonna use it in a future message. My take on length is this is humbling. Preachers are so insecure. On the one hand we're like, I suck. I shouldn't be doing this. On the other hand, we all kind of think that we're better than we really are, both at the same time.

[Mark Clark]

Me talk. Yeah, that's what people think.

[Cary Newhoff]

I think we think we are better than we are. So I would probably, because if you're listening to this, watching this, you're probably like, well, yeah, I can hold court for 45 minutes. For 55 minutes. Check that, check that. And what I would find is five minutes of boring is five minutes too long. 60 minutes of fascinating is not fascinating enough. I don't preach for 60 minutes. I've actually whittled back from 50 to about 35 to 38. And what I want to do is it's kind of like, you know, there are two kinds of preachers. The preacher who you're like, wow, you're done. That was fast. I want more. And then there's a preacher. It's like, you're not done yet. Oh, wait, there's more. Oh, come on, come on.

[Mark Clark]

When is this gonna be over, right?

[Cary Newhoff]

You're looking at the clock, you're looking at your watch. You don't want to be the second handed preacher. I think you want to leave them wanting more. And you do have next Sunday and you have next month and you have the month after that. So what I would do is I would try to dial back your preaching by five minutes. So if you're a 45 minute preacher, try going 40. If you get a lot of people complaining like, we want more, okay, maybe. And if your church is growing, if you're like you're packing it out and you're adding services, okay, then maybe you can be 45 minutes. But I think you've got to keep people engaged and you want to leave them wanting a little bit more. All right, A.I.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

This is a very fresh topic. Two years ago, most people didn't even know what A.I. was.

[Mark Clark]

Now we're all using to watch T2. Terminator 2 already told us where this.

[Cary Newhoff]

So the robots have been writing your sermons for a long time.

[Mark Clark]

You've already figured us out, they're going to kill us all. That's what's going to happen. That's the story.

[Cary Newhoff]

So now we have Claude, we have perplexity, we've got NotebookLM, we've got ChatGPT and many others. If you're watching this, not in real time, that are going to be invented. And the metaphor I have appreciated the most over the last couple years that I think about AI in it's from Seth Godin. And Seth Godin says AI is going to be like electricity. So you look at a podcast shoot like this, or even how you're watching or listening this, what's that? All powered by electricity. You got cameras, you got lights, you got mics, you've got your phone, you've got your laptop, you got your desktop. That's how you're accessing this message. It's all electricity. And you didn't wake up today thinking about electricity. You're just like, yeah, it's just, it's everywhere. And I think that's AI. But AI gives us something different. Like my light switch isn't going to write a message for me. But you can now even where AI is right now in 2025, you can say to it write a sermon on XYZ topic in the style of Mark Driscoll or Christine Cain or Priscilla Shire or whoever, and it'll do a decent job. What are your thoughts on that? How do you use AI? What are the ethical uses of AI?

[Mark Clark]

I mean, it's interesting because I'm a pretty traditional guy. Like, I write books. I don't have a ghostwriter. I'm like the guy who writes and rewrites the sentences myself, 40, 50, 60 times over, wanting every phrase to be perfect. So if you said to me, oh, I wrote at your best, some ghostwriter just wrote it and I just, like, signed off on it, I'd be like, oh, okay. Well, that's not. I mean, it's yours, but it's kind of not yours, you know? So I don't know if that's, like, old school of me to think about it.

[Cary Newhoff]

No, I'm of the same vibe, but.

[Mark Clark]

Remember there was a time when people used to be like, you know, you're not allowed to read somebody's. You can't even read a Spurgeon sermon and take it or take ideas from it, or else it's plagiarism, whatever. So it's kind of an alive question because now we would go, oh, you're reading an old Spurgeon sermon in a library and stealing one of his illustrations about lions. Like, what are you, old school? No one would raise a question about that. So is this that. I don't know. This feels like more than that.

[Cary Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Mark Clark]

If I ever went into ChatGPT and said, here's my passage. Write it in my voice. And then I took that and went and preached it, I think that would be weird and a violation of my responsibility almost. But that might be because I'm old school. Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

Because you go to the word of God on behalf of the people and on behalf of your calling.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah. Now, I have gone on and said, okay, I have the sermon on Acts 21:1 18. Hey, how would you outline it according. Cause AI knows my theology. Right. It grabs everything from the Internet that I have enough sermons and books online.

[Cary Newhoff]

Out there in the ether that it.

[Mark Clark]

Can figure out what I would say. And so I've done that and I've gone, okay, so just outline it for me. What would be your 4 points outline? Cause I'm not a points preacher to a point, but if I was, what would your four points be? And organize it perfect. Right. It was like Paul speaks to this. Mark would use an apologetics point to make this. He might share the story about his wife. Like, literally it's telling me he would share the story about Aaron, blah, blah, blah, blah. Second point is this. Paul says these are these guys. He would probably share a story about his struggle with Tourette's and obsessive compulsive da da like literally like that in 30 seconds. Because there's enough of me out there that it's starting to know me more and more now. What did I do with that? I kind of laughed at it. I'm not an organized preacher like that anyway. I'm more stream of consciousness. So I was like, oh, cool. But if I was an outline guy, I would probably grab that, throw it in, and then I'd start working on it. I'd start working with it. No, not much different than going to a commentary written by DA Carson, who outlines that passage in these four movements. Taking it, throwing in my sermon notes and then starting to massage it. If I'm starting to sketch out a 30 week sermon series on the Gospel of John, I'm going to go on ChatGPT. It's probably my first run now, and go, how would you do it in 30 seconds? It's going to be outlined and then I'm going to get together with my team and we're going to start beating it up. So I think those are the uses for it right now that are legitimate that I'm seeing, but there's certainly some fears in it too.

[Cary Newhoff]

I think we have to approach it with optimism and with caution. I love your approach, saying like, you know, if it just wrote it for me, like a ghost writer, I am not on board with that because I don't think you or I would internalize the message. Like there is an authenticity. Like all this stuff we've done in the course, in this podcast, everything like that. I think one of the reasons it resonates with people is they know, like, mark's preached for 25 years. Carrie's done almost 35 years of preaching. They know their stuff. They're not just reading from a script that somebody else generated or that AI generated, There's a resonance there. So when you tell your story about Target or you tell your story about the dog or Aaron or whoever. When I tell my stories, when I talk about my wrestling with the text, that really resonates with people because they're like, yeah, that's real. They have like a fake detector versus I'm reading from a prepared statement or something that doesn't live in me. And I think when you write a message from scratch, the message lives in you. And when it lives in you and it comes out of you, it connects with people. Now, do I use AI? Yes. What do I use it for? Sometimes it's idea generation, sometimes it's brainstorming. Often it's a great critiquer. You know, you get all your notes written, whether that's a manuscript or whatever, you feed it into whatever Claude chatgpt and say, critique this as though you were an unchurched person.

[Mark Clark]

Yeah.

[Cary Newhoff]

See what they say, if you're a mature Christian, what does it say? What are you missing? It'll point out holes in your argument. It will say, you know, you ask it, what do you get out of this? Now, AI is going to keep evolving and keep changing, but I think the most AI proof thing you can do is to be more human. You know, when I tell a story about a time in my life where I felt like giving up, and I'm real about that, and I'm like, I thought about suicide. I preached about that. That happened a long time ago in my life. That's real. And people leave the service in tears and people leave the service jarred. That's not, you know, AI might be able to help me say it a little bit better. I might not feed that one in because it's so personal and so real. So that's what I have found really helpful. Hey, Mark, we're wrapping up now. Is there any question about preaching that you think or topic that is not touched on enough that needs to be touched on? Like question that needs to be asked, topic that needs to be addressed?

[Mark Clark]

I just honestly think hard work is when I'm up in front of preachers and teachers and get the opportunity to talk to them. One of the things that really resonates with them almost the most is when I explain to them my process or the amount of hours and time and energy that I put into these things I tell the story about. You've probably seen Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee, Jerry.

[Cary Newhoff]

Oh, lots of episodes. Yeah.

[Mark Clark]

So there's an episode with Kramer, Michael Richards, you know, in the first season. And he tells the story and he's talking and he says, you know, I was, I was back when I was doing that show, I'd be back in the, in the, like the green room. And Jerry said, yeah, I saw you there. You were always doing your lines up against the wall. You were, you know, doing your little pivots and always working, working, working, right until they said action and you slide out and you do it. And everyone perceived that to be just. Michael Richards was Winging it.

[Cary Newhoff]

He.

[Mark Clark]

The crazy stuff. But this guy was. And he looks at Jerry in the interview, he says, yeah, you know, I feel like I missed the 90s. You know, I feel like I didn't enjoy them because I was working so hard in that green room. Every phrase, every turn of my face was, yeah, all the stuff that I missed the 90s, I missed the joy of being on the show. And Jerry says to him, no, that wasn't your job. You were to sacrifice in that room. So the audience enjoyed it. That is what the job of the preacher is. And when I get to look at preachers and say, listen, man, your job is not to enjoy your little life and have a blah, blah, blah. You sacrifice for these people. So if you have to say to your family on Saturday, you know what? We gotta figure our life out, man. Cause I gotta be in a room preaching against a wall, because I'm only good. I'm not great. And those people deserve great, then that's what you need to do. And you won't do it. And the reason you won't do it is because it's too much hard work and you're not willing to do it. And usually when I talk to preachers in rooms 20, 30 at a time out of every. I can give them 33 hours of preaching content. It's when I say that that they look at me and almost to the person go, you know what? You're right. You're right. I am not willing to work that hard. And that's good of them to admit that, but it's gonna take that. Take all the principles, but you gotta put in the work.

[Cary Newhoff]

You know what I mean? There's a couple in there. I couldn't agree more. And we see the success, and the stuff that looks easy actually was hard. It's funny you mentioned Kramer. If my wife's having a bad day and she needs a good laugh, I'll find an old Seinfeld cloth. As soon as she sees Kramer, she's, like, almost crying.

[Mark Clark]

Right?

[Cary Newhoff]

Right. Like, she loves Kramer. It's great. But I had no idea that that was the 90s for him. Rehearsing everything. And he makes it look effortless. You know, I got a couple of friends, podcast alumni here. You work really hard at this, and I've seen you work. I've seen you sweat. I'm watching you sweat right now as we film this course, as you preach in this area. I'm watching you do it. You're the real deal. Two other names, John Acuff, Ryan Leak. So Jon Acuff works so hard on his craft. He's been on the show many times. I talk to John at least every month. And the dude is always hours and hours and hours. So he's hilarious, he's funny, he's clear, he's clever. You have no idea the work that went into it. And then we had Ryan Leek on the podcast just this morning. I'm scrolling through my phone, I see that his new book hit top 10 New York Times bestseller. I'm like, good. And before, I would have looked at that and went, wow, he's young. Like, how did it get there? When I interviewed him, and it's in the archive, Ryan talks about maniacal preparation and back to where we started, you know, when you were doing youth things and you're planning for weeks, and you're rehearsing all the jokes and you're rehearsing all the lines, and you're rehearsing all that. That kind of prep went back. Ryan's done the same thing. And I think we forget that. So I'm not saying become a workaholic and spend 90 hours a week, you know, and ignore your family and get divorced. That's not what I'm saying.

[Mark Clark]

Is that what I just said?

[Cary Newhoff]

No, that's not what you're saying. Well, what you are saying is it's gonna be hard work, Right?

[Mark Clark]

It's gonna be hard work.

[Cary Newhoff]

Do you know how hard clarity is for me? It is really difficult because you look at a million points of information, you're trying to make sense of it, and then you're like, there it is. But that takes hours and hours of thinking, mulling and everything. So.

[Mark Clark]

And one thing I've learned from you is exactly what you described earlier, with the clarity and really working on those lines, those sentences that stick with people. And there was one that the other day, I was preaching, and I was preaching the sermon. I was all over the map, all these illustrations. And, you know, people were laughing, people were into it, but I was like, okay, am I really? And then this thought dawned on me, and I looked at the audience, and I was in a very carry esque kind of way, I said, you can't change the world by minding your own business. That line still. And people walking up to me, they're like, bro, where did you. That was like. And I'm like, I don't know where that even came from. But it was wrapped up in this story about my wife helping a choking baby at Disneyland and how she went out of her way with no information and pulls a baby off a baby mural and starts giving it Heimlichs and blah blah to save its life. And I'm like, if that would have been me, I would have been like, oh, don't bother anyone. Let's just leave. They're probably fine. The baby's choking, but it's. But I wouldn't even bother. But you can't change the world by minding your own business. Sometimes you gotta stick your nose into people's lives. And you know, and that was one of those. And I learned when I said that line, I'm like, kerry's right. I gotta work harder on these lines.

[Cary Newhoff]

Well, I gotta work better at storytelling, et cetera. But what's so cool about that, because I can almost see the message 40 minutes around that with the stories and everything like that. Otherwise it would have been a lot of stories. But you can't change the world by minding your own business. I already remember that. And what's so powerful, we teach how to create a bottom line like that in the course. What's so powerful about that is it carries the weight of the message. That is the message, right? That is the message. If you create a really fun sing songy bottom line thing, that's kind of crap throwaway.

[Mark Clark]

Right?

[Cary Newhoff]

Great. All right. Somebody remembers something that doesn't mean anything. But if it actually carries the weight of the 40 minutes, somebody on a Wednesday night who's shopping for groceries sees somebody struggling and says, should I act? You can't change the world by minding your own business. That's the power of that. And it's a story like that. So amazing. Well, listen, hey, Mark and I are very different communicators. We're great friends and I guess we want to encourage people to check out the art of preaching. So you can go to theartofpreaching.com check it out there. Brand new course. Would love to have you join. You're on the socials arkclark. You got a little check mark.

[Mark Clark]

I think it's a mark underscore Instagram, whatever.

[Cary Newhoff]

Yes.

[Mark Clark]

That's where I mostly am is Instagram.

[Cary Newhoff]

Go Instagram.

[Mark Clark]

And the Mark Clark podcast. I've started doing that every week. A sermon drops every week.

[Cary Newhoff]

So it's a sermon podcast. I think one of the best communicators. Oh, well, that's why I love working with you.

[Mark Clark]

I appreciate it. I.

[Cary Newhoff]

That's what. Why it's such a joy. And make sure you check it out. Theartofpreaching.com well, I hope you picked a few things up.

[Podcast Host]

We had a lot of fun doing that interview. And also the course. If you want to jump into the course. Well, you'll see all the prompts when you join the Art of Leadership Academy. That's where on the free tier you can get the show notes. Jump into conversation. I do quarterly webinars and a whole lot more. You can find [e-mail] or click the link in this episode and you will be able to go there, create a free account and boom, you're off to the races. And you get the show notes next time. Oh my goodness. Megan Fate Marshman. She was great. We shot this in person in California. I think you're gonna really love her. And we talk about, well, what works and what doesn't work in preaching. She's one of the best communicators, period. Not just female communicators. Communicators. I know.

[Cary Newhoff]

That's next episode.

[Podcast Host]

Also coming up, Eric Geiger, Judah Smith, Faith Yuri Cho, Bobby Grunewald. And we're got Tim Timberlake and a whole lot more coming up. If you haven't subscribed yet, please do so. Leave a rating or review if you found this episode helpful and don't forget to share it with a friend. I hope our conversation today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing. Hey, before we go, pastors, I know how hard it can be to keep your sermons fresh and relevant, especially when you are preaching week after week after week after week. So whether you're hitting writer's block or you're in a rush trying to put the finishing touches on your sermon, it can be hard. And so I want to help. I've created a 10 step preaching cheat sheet. Actually, I just totally revised it. After decades of preaching, I've simplified my sermon prep into a series of steps and reminders. Now updated, they're engaging, relevant, memorable, and ready for preaching in Today's culture. It's 10 simple prompts with examples that you can start using as early as today day for next Sunday. So start transforming your preaching. Visit preachingcheatsheet.

[Cary Newhoff]

Com.

[Podcast Host]

Get your new copy for free. Even if you downloaded this a year ago or so. We've had 40,000 church leaders download it. It's updated. Check it out preachingcheatsheet.com to download your copy absolutely free.