← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 758 | Does Simple Church Still Work? Eric Geiger on What Scales and Why Older Church Leaders Need to Die to Themselves
01:14:22
Nearly twenty years after releasing his groundbreaking book Simple Church, Eric Geiger reflects on why complexity still doesn’t scale, how complexity subtly creeps in as you grow, and what he’s learned since he started leading Mariners Church. He...
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- [00:01]
A
The Art of Leadership Network. Guess what? You're looking at a guy who read it and implemented things almost immediately.
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B
Wow.
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A
First of all, I want to thank you for the mass exit out of our church when I shut down a lot of ministry.
- [00:13]
B
Oh, God, take no responsibility.
- [00:14]
A
No, I take full responsibility. I learned how to lead change a lot better after that. Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. I hope our time together helps you thrive in life and leadership. Man, I had fun talking to Eric Geiger. Does simple church still work? It's a great question. That book, you've been around a minute, or maybe you picked it up in the ensuing years was transformative for me. We talk about that as well as transitioning into one of the largest churches in the country as the successor to a very influential pastor. I mean, about 160,000 churches are going to change leadership in the next decade. That's a big deal. And we also talk about why older church leaders need to die to themselves in the midst of transition. That was a really good note, so I think you're going to enjoy it. Hey, huge shout out to Rick on Spotify. Rick, you wrote Carrie, thanks for this revival series. Your questions on this episode were so on point in helping us understand what God is doing among different churches. I truly believe what's going on is not a denominational thing, but a body of Christ thing. Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much, Rick. We read all of your reviews and I want to thank you for everybody who leaves a rating or review, maybe shares this with your staff or your team. I know you're busy. I love being on the road because you guys always tell me, man, I have a long drive and so I listen to the podcast. Yes, this is long form. That's where you get the good stuff, right? If you missed the revival series I released in August, you can just slip back and check it out. That's the nice thing about a podcast feed, right? Just go back to the August episodes, those five episodes. There's some really encouraging things happening around the world and you'll want to hear them. And better to have that than, you know, all the bad news we get every day. So Eric Geiger, a senior pastor at Mariners Church, he's married to Kay. They have two daughters. Eric received his doctorate in leadership and church ministry from Southern Seminary, has authored or co authored several amazing books, including the best selling church leadership book, Simple Church and some kids books. So I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. We'll jump right into it right after this word from our trusted partners. This episode is brought to you by the Church Network. You know vision is vital and so is the day to day work that keeps your church running. The Church Network helps you run your church with excellence behind the scenes. TCN is the go to membership for church administrators, executive pastors and operations leaders who want practical tools, peer support and real world solutions. From HR and finance to facilities and tech, TCN offers resources you won't find anywhere else. Plus it provides a nationwide network of professionals who speak your language. The Church Network exists for church operations leaders. It's not about theory. It's about real world support, practical resources and a community of peers who understand the complexity of your role. Visit TheChurchNetwork.com and join today when your operations run smoothly, your vision and your church have room to grow. Today's episode is brought to you by glu. We all know how fast things move in ministry and how hard it can be to keep up. Well, that's exactly what the glue feed is built for. This is a totally free regular text that delivers the latest research, trending topics and updates from across the church. For example, did you see the surprising reversal in which Americans are trending in their commitment to Jesus? It's actually going up. Or did you catch the fresh insights on where pastors say they don't have enough support? Well, you would have if you saw the text from the glue feed. This is the best way to stay informed about what matters, when it matters, without having to sift the through all of the noise. So you can get all the latest research, updates on AI in the church and access to resources, plus a whole lot more. Join the glue feed today absolutely free. Text my name, Carrie C A R e y to 46816 and you can join for free. That's Carrie to 46816. And now to my conversation with Eric Geiger. Well, Eric, I've been hoping to do this for a long time. Really glad to have you on the podcast, man.
- [04:22]
B
It's an honor to be here, Carrie. Thank you.
- [04:24]
A
Well, I want to think about the time before you came a lead pastor, before you came a lead pastor here. You'd been a lead pastor before, but you were in Nashville. You had an amazing view of the broader church.
- [04:37]
B
Yeah.
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A
What were you seeing at the time from that unique seat at Lifeway when you were there with Tom Raynor?
- [04:43]
B
Yeah, some of the things that. I mean, there were so many beautiful things that were happening in the church and still is happening in the church. The thing that I was burdened about the most at that time was there were so many research projects we would do that would show a lack of intention or a wise plan for discipleship. It just felt like a lot of pastors and church leaders had a burden for the Great Commission. We need to make disciples. But there was no wise plan for that to happen. So just like a couple of examples that just off the top of my head when I was there, we started like a customized curriculum group that would. Because a lot of pastors were trying to have the small groups in their church line up to their sermons, you know, like sermon aligned content.
- [05:34]
A
Yeah, Pretty common.
- [05:34]
B
Yeah. And so we started a group that would serve that church and you know, hey, give us your teaching plan and then we'll create the small group resources for you. So I think after five years of doing it, we looked at, I mean, the thousands of group material that we made following the plan of the senior pastor. And there were entire books in the Bible that no study was done on.
- [06:03]
A
You only had to do five books of the Bible.
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B
Like for example, Acts 2, 42, 47. I mean that, I mean everybody was teaching that over and over again. And it's a great passage, I love that passage. But that's just one example made me think, wow, if the senior pastor does want to be the chief curriculum officer at his church, then man, he probably wants to look at the whole breadth of what he's going to teach over a several year period of time. Is there a balance of Old Testament, New Testament, character of God, identity in Christ? It just felt undisciplined, you know what I mean? So that was one example. Another is we would do research projects on if churches had a plan for leadership development for raising up leaders. And the vast majority of churches didn't have any kind of intentional plan for leadership development. So there was just so many studies like that that was concerning great people who want to make disciples. But a lack of thoughtfulness on here's how we're going to make disciples.
- [07:06]
A
Leadership development is an faq. I get on the regular. What would you say most church leaders, from what you could see anyway, was their de facto plan? Because not having a plan is a plan.
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B
Yes.
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A
Right. And obviously there are some people in positions of leadership. It's not, I'm sure there's one church with one guy, but like most of us have people in leadership, but we don't have a leadership pipeline.
- [07:29]
B
Totally.
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A
So what would you say the de facto plan would be for most pastors?
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B
What's actually happening And So you're asking from my time then, right? Yeah, yeah, because I've been here seven years now.
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A
You can make. Yeah, I know we're going to get there. But you can make an observation from what you see now.
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B
Well, now I'm less involved. I mean, now I'm so focused here. I'm. I'm so focused here.
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A
Yeah, you don't have time to look around.
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B
I don't pay attention much like I did. I mean, I. It was my role really, to look over a whole lot during that season. The de facto, especially in, I'd say, churches past 200 and higher, was just complete decentralization. Whoever was in charge of that ministry was responsible for leadership development. Yeah. And then. So you could have some leaders. He might have a kid's pastor who is crushing it. But in leadership development, I mean, has a structure of coaches and leaders, and there's great care and there's a plan of. Here's the. Here's how we're gonna give them a burden for kids ministry. Here's the tools. We're gonna give them to shepherd kids. Well, you might have that happening in complete isolation. And there's nothing happening in the adult space or the worship space because it was just completely decentralized. Not even the same nomenclature was the default, meaning a leader in one area could be called something completely different in another area.
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A
Right. So no central vision. Not even sure that those individual departments are gonna be aligned with the central mission.
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B
Very true. And because they were so segmented, if a volunteer in the church would move from the kids ministry to a different ministry, it could feel like they were literally going to a different church, even though it's the same church. Because there's not. To your point, there's not a, here's where we're headed and here's how we develop people.
- [09:15]
A
How far, in your view, can you grow? How large can you grow without a strategic leadership development strategy, at least?
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B
Yeah, I think I'm glad you said it that way, because there is a difference between a strategy and a person. So someone will ask, how large does a church need to grow before you dedicate personnel for that in a centralized way, versus if you have a leadership team that says, we're gonna together create the strategy of how we develop leaders, you can do it that way without additional personnel. If everyone on the team owns this is part of our role, which it is part of everyone's role. Ephesians 4, 11, 13. The role is to prepare others for ministry, not just to do ministry. Right. So, I mean, Gosh, we had it here at Mariners. A view of everyone owning it and the same strategy. I mean, probably past 10,000 before we dedicated people, personnel to. We try to do it with systems and strategy first for a long time before allocating people towards dedicated staff towards it.
- [10:31]
A
So I want to come back to that in a little bit, but from where you sat in that privileged seat, because as you're right, when I talk to people who lead big churches, nine times out of ten they're like, yeah, I don't have time to pay attention to trends. I'm not really looking around the country to see what's going on. Like, you pick stuff up from your friends and what you see at a conference and that kind of thing. But that's a unique seat to really. Your job and responsibility is to look at the state of the church.
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B
Yes.
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A
And to try to.
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B
In my last role, in your last.
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A
Role previous, was there anything else you saw in that seat, which again is almost 10 years now since you were there, that is worth noting that you noticed and said, man, if we could fix this, or, hey, this is amazing and I love seeing this.
- [11:12]
B
I'll say. Every research project that we were a part of that looked at how people grow spiritually found that getting people in the scripture is by far the most important. I walked away from my time at lifeway moving into senior pastor at Mariners with a stronger conviction that the discipline of engaging God's word is the discipline that impacts every other discipline.
- [11:36]
A
Like the keystone.
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B
Yeah, it's like, so if somebody increases, we know that spiritual disciplines like serving, giving, they help our spiritual growth. You know, being generous causes us to rely on him, realize everything's a gift from Him. Serving helps us to remember that Christ served us. We know this when we would do research projects, we would find that someone who serves their serving can go up, but their generosity doesn't necessarily go up, and vice versa. Someone can be more generous and their serving doesn't necessarily increase, but somebody reading the scripture increases every other discipline.
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A
Really?
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B
Yes. It was the only discipline that impacted every other discipline.
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A
And that's what daily Bible reading, semi.
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B
Weekly, engaging the scripture. I can't remember how many days a week it was, but it was active engagement, obviously, at church, engaging the text. But daily Bible reading, you share the gospel more, you are more hospitable, you repent of sin more, you give more, you serve more. It's the discipline that impacts every other discipline. So, I mean, we should be really encouraged. Now, I do know this, even though I don't watch all the trends the same. Like, Bible sales are up right now. People are engaging the text. I mean, we're seeing young people hungry for the scripture.
- [12:50]
A
The version's gonna hit a billion downloads this year.
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B
That should fire everybody up.
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A
Installs. That's crazy.
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B
That's amazing, because we really do believe that the Word does the work in us to change us if we approach the word humbly.
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A
So you're happy at Lifeway, comfortable there, you have a bright future, and you go on to take a call to lead one of the largest and most influential ministries in America. What prompted that shift for you?
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B
So I had left Miami, where I was executive and teaching pastor at Christ Fellowship, went to Lifeway. I was there seven years, and I missed the local church day one. So I served as interim pastor multiple times. I was teaching pastor at a church while I was there. K. My wife and I led, you know, young adult couples Sunday school classes. I mean, we just. We love the local church. I loved my role at Lifeway. I loved the people I worked for, and I loved the team I was on. But I did miss the. I mean, I think I'm an operator. I miss the grind of the local church. You know, I. I missed the weekend responsibilities. I missed. I mean, you know, I was a little bit late for this because I just did a funeral service. You know, I. I missed that when I was at Lifeway, and Kay and I knew that at some point we would go back to the local church. We were in the local church the whole time, but back, you know, full time.
- [14:18]
A
Weeding.
- [14:19]
B
Full time, yes. We just didn't know when it would be. And, I mean, it's a long story, but God just made it really clear, which was very gracious of him. As opposed to. There's other times where I've felt that he's said, eric, either one's great. I'm handing responsibility over you.
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A
As long as you don't get into organized crime, you're okay.
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B
Yes. I care more about what I'm doing in you than where you do it. I believe all that. But coming to Mariners, he made it really clear, which was very kind of him. How did that happen? I was actually out in Southern California speaking at a conference, and I just sensed a burden for this area. I was with my oldest daughter. I brought her on the trip, and I kept texting K. My wife back in Nashville. She was a public school teacher at the time saying, I think. I don't know. I can't explain it. I just have a burden for here. And she's like, you just like the weather. Because I hated the. I just hated. I hated the weather in Nashville. You know, we'd been.
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A
What did you hate about it?
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B
It's cold and rainy. It's rainy in the spring and cold.
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A
No palm.
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B
Yeah, no palm. I was in Miami before. Right. You know, so I missed that. And I was like, baby, no, the weather's not even. It was in February. It wasn't even awesome out. Sometimes in February, it can be rainy out here. People don't think so. And cool. Yes. And I said, no, I'm serious. And she said, we'll talk when we get home. When you get home. And so I flew home on a Sunday. And Sunday night, I was just telling her about this. I can't really explain it. It's almost mysterious burden I was sensing from the Lord for Southern California. And then she goes to bed. I'm still in west coast time. I'm not sleepy. So I'm staying up on the computer, answering some emails, and William Vanderbloom, who was running the search for Mariners, texted me and said, I want to talk to you about Mariners. This is like 30 minutes after I told Kay. Whoa. I'm like, so I'll go back into the bedroom. Kay's not quite dozed off yet. I'm like, baby, you've got to see this.
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A
You want a sign from God?
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B
This is crazy.
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A
It's William.
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B
This is the place. I just. So I spent that night just deep diving everything I could find about Mariners Church. And then I texted William back and said, I can't, because I had told Tom Raynor, who, you know, mutual friend of ours, that I was gonna. I was committed to work with him through his transition.
- [16:44]
A
That's my understanding of what the plan was. You were gonna take over for Tom.
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B
That's what I mean. Possibly the board would have to have approved it, but that's what it looked like the trajectory was gonna be. Yeah. That I was the heir apparent person, you know? Right, Right. And so I told William I couldn't talk about it. Cause I felt committed to Tom. So Tom calls me into his office the next day, which is rare. I'd have a monthly update with Tom, but he called me into his office and said, hey, I know that Mariners wants to talk to you. I know how you are, that your word matters to you. I just want you to know if you want to talk to Mariners, I would feel bad if you regretted not talking to them. I know. He's such a great man.
- [17:30]
A
That's huge.
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B
And so I said, how often do you want to be updated? He said, I don't want to be updated. And so that was February. And the process with Mariners was a long. It was a very thoughtful process. This is a funny story. At the very end of it, he calls me one night on a Sunday night and says, hey, I'm going to go ahead and move my retirement up. This is what I think is going to happen. And I said, boss, I'm flying back to Southern California tomorrow for my final interview. Cause he had told me not to update him. And he just started laughing. He said, man, I trust God. That's how he is. So that was the process. That was the process.
- [18:11]
A
Wow. So, couple of things. Number one, you follow a legacy pastor who'd been here for over 30 years.
- [18:20]
B
35 years, built one of the most.
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A
Beautiful campuses I think anybody could ever be on. It's huge. You're one of the largest churches in the United States even before you got here. A lot of people say that's a fool's errand, that you are the sacrificial lamb. Enjoy your two years here in SoCal.
- [18:38]
B
Have fun. Interim. Be interim for a couple years. You're paved for the next guy, the.
- [18:43]
A
Full time senior interim pastor. Well, everybody gets mad at you that it's not the way it was. You were aware. I mean, you study church leadership. You're aware that that's what you're walking into. What's the internal process as you accept the call. Realizing that that is often how it goes.
- [19:00]
B
Yep. Clearly knowing that the Lord was directing, which was super gracious of him, and also feeling a lot of harmony with Mariners and Kenton Beesore, who is the predecessor, feeling we spent a lot of time together. In fact, I came out a whole extra time just to theologically talk to him about all kinds of things. Because I didn't want to feel as if I was going to come and make like a big, big shift, turn.
- [19:31]
A
Shift this way or that way, that.
- [19:34]
B
His philosophy and his theology, the closer that we were, the smoother the transition would be. And that I wanted to love Mariners as she was not some future version of Mariners, you know, so those were, like, practical things that Kenton and I worked through. One of the first meetings, my favorite theologian that I've learned the most from is John Stott. John Stott mentored Kenton.
- [20:03]
A
I did not know that. Yes.
- [20:05]
B
I mean, Stott spent the night at Kenton's house multiple times. And so when I knew that, I was like, oh, man, there's so much. We're on the same page on so many things, you know, and that was a, I think, a moment for both Kenton and me to realize that we had some harmony on really important doctrinal issues.
- [20:31]
A
So I was talking to successor, no names. And, you know, followed somebody with a huge legacy. And one of the things a couple years in is always, yeah, but you're not. And as aligned as you may have been with Kenton, even the John Staughton come and that kind of thing, there are people who would say, yeah, but you're not Kenton totally. Did you run into that? How did you deal with it?
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B
Yeah, Kenton made it as easy as any predecessor could.
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A
What did he do?
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B
I mean, he's a genius. Kenton is. He's just an intuitive genius. He made some decisions for me that I wouldn't have to make. Such as he got an office off of campus, so we asked him to stay. He's pastor emeritus. He's still on our team. He teaches several times a year. He and I are very close, but Kenton cannot not lead in any room he's in.
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A
If he walks into the room, he's gonna.
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B
He owns the room. If Kenton and I are in the same room, I'm gonna be a little more. A bit more chill than he is. He's very. He's so strong, and he knows that about himself. He's just very self aware in a very healthy way. He's very healthy. And he. He. So he just removed himself. I wouldn't not have to have asked him to do that, and I would never have wanted to ask him to do that. But that gave me Runway where I'm never leading immediately anymore.
- [21:58]
A
Sitting there, taking notes. I didn't really looking at him.
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B
Kenton's gonna come in. So that was one of. This is a practical example.
- [22:07]
A
What else did Kenton do? Well, to set up the transition, because we have people in your shoes watching and listening. We also have a number of people. There's gonna be like tens of thousands of transitions in the next few years as boomer pastors step out and they're wondering how to do it.
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B
Well.
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A
What did Kenton do?
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B
Well, very first elder meeting. So I'm one of the directional elders, but they're also my bosses.
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A
Sure.
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B
I start Labor Day, and then we had a meeting, like a week later with elders. Kenton comes into the meeting and says, I'm only gonna be in this meeting if Eric asked me to. You guys don't talk to me at all unless Eric asked me. He just did some things like that.
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A
That big separation for him.
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B
Yeah. And again, I would never have Said that and the elders, it was all healthy. But he just. That's how Kenton is, though. He makes some brash statements, but he just. Clearly, Eric's now the leader. Yeah.
- [23:10]
A
He had to shift loyalty from him.
- [23:11]
B
Yes.
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A
Well, obviously it's to God, totally, but from him to you.
- [23:15]
B
And, I mean, 35 years of tenure. Right. So I think he had to make some statements like that in his mind. And what else did he do? I never one time felt like he wasn't in my corner the entire time. And now it's seven years. So we have two Saturday night services. One at 4, one at 5:30. He's still. This is seven years later, not seven months later. Seven years later. He comes and sits in the front row at 4 o', clock, takes notes. We have a debrief after and, like, encourages and rah rahs. This is seven years later. This is how godly and humble this man is. And then if he ever has something that he thinks, and he does often that I should consider, he waits till everybody else leaves the room and says, hey, man, here's one thing you may want to consider. So he coaches me, and I ask him to coach me. And we meet once a month for lunch. And I know that meeting's coming on my phone. I have different things to ask him. And he's been so supportive. I mean, it's been unbelievable how great he's been.
- [24:24]
A
Okay, I wanna pose this as a hypothetical, because when I see integrity, I wanna respect it. But for those who are watching, who might be like, okay, that's cool. I mean, I did this a decade ago in our church. There's a lot of death to self if it's gonna go well.
- [24:40]
B
For sure. I agree. And people will say, hey, you and Kenton, you guys have done this really well. I think it's mainly him dying. I think you're 100% right.
- [24:51]
A
So I had to die a lot to myself. I said. And the thing. You know, it's funny, you reminded me of something I'd forgotten about or hadn't thought about recently. The thing I missed the most in the first year was I did a hard stop with our elders.
- [25:04]
B
Really?
- [25:04]
A
I'm like, I am not the lead pastor.
- [25:07]
B
And you miss that the most.
- [25:08]
A
I'm getting emotional.
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B
Because you loved being with him.
- [25:11]
A
They were my favorite.
- [25:12]
B
Oh, that's so cool.
- [25:13]
A
They were the best.
- [25:13]
B
Yeah.
- [25:14]
A
And I felt like I lost friends, you know, I didn't. But I had to do that hard stop so that Jeff had a Runway. And I just thought, I really miss my Elders. I really miss my elders. And that's great. We're still friends. Like, I see them and it's great, but it'll never be the same.
- [25:30]
B
Yeah. You getting emotional makes me sad. Cause I don't want Kenton to hurt. No. I love him, but you have to do that. And I just, you know, I hope. I've appreciated all the dying that he's done, you know?
- [25:45]
A
Well, if he did the transition well. Because he learned how to do that.
- [25:49]
B
Yes.
- [25:49]
A
So here's the hypothetical. Sorry.
- [25:52]
B
Yeah.
- [25:53]
A
If he was gonna mess it up, how would he have done it? Because he didn't. And I don't want this misquoted. Okay.
- [25:58]
B
He did not. His self control and his emotional health is so strong. I think he would have been hard for him to do the thing to mess it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean.
- [26:09]
A
Or anybody to mess it up if you're going to mess up a succession. Here's the formula.
- [26:14]
B
His voice for a long time was probably stronger than my voice.
- [26:20]
A
He just had to whisper.
- [26:21]
B
He could. Yes, exactly. He could have done some subtle things that would have derailed directions that we were going. He could have. He wouldn't even had to be. You're right. He could have been just a whisper. So the self control that he had. Cause I know. I mean, I was only here 18 months when Covid hit. Right.
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A
Welcome.
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B
So coming out of COVID you know, everyone was making a lot of leadership decisions fast, daily. And so there's no way that every leadership decision I made he would have thought is awesome.
- [26:55]
A
Sure.
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B
Although he and I are really close on how we think about things, but I never knew if he didn't. I mean, it's crazy.
- [27:03]
A
That's amazing. It's amazing because you probably would have found out.
- [27:06]
B
Yeah. Cause the power of his whisper. And I think he still has a ton of influence. The church has grown a lot now. More locations, so there's less people that know him as they do.
- [27:20]
A
It's a new story.
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B
It's a new.
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A
California's changed a lot.
- [27:23]
B
Five years, but he still teaches. He's still in our teaching rotation. And our church honors him and love him, which I love. And people, some have been like, how do you respond when somebody, like on social media will say, when Ken's teaching, oh, finally my favorite pastor's back. And it's great. It's great. You know, it's great. I mean, you don't have to say it that meanly on social, but you know what I'm saying? It's great.
- [27:49]
A
You know, it's interesting. Jeff Brody. I don't know if you've ever met Jeff. He's amazing. But he, he leads Connexus these days. He's my pastor, but I'll teach a couple times a year. And he just said, look, I've come to conclude that you will always be a handful of people's pastor. Yes. You know, it's just always going to be for them. And I'm like, I don't take anything from it because I don't talk to them between Sundays. I have some friends in the church, but they're not particularly impressed when I preach.
- [28:15]
B
We had a. Just this last Sunday after one of our services, we had a long term Mariners guy who has cancer right now. And we have elder prayer after all of our services. James 5, you can. The elders of the church will anoint you with oil and pray over you. And so we asked, because he's really connected to some of our directional elders, we gathered in the pastor study right off of the. Right after I communicate. And we prayed over him. And Kenton is close to this guy. Cause he's been this guy. In fact, when Kenton was hired, gosh, over 40 years ago now, this guy was part of the hiring of Kenton. So Kenton came. So on Saturday night, he always is there. Kenton said, hey, I'm gonna come tomorrow. I'm like, man, that's awesome. And we talked about, how do you want, do you want it to go? Do you want to lead that moment? Cause I know you're close to this guy. Do you want me to lead that moment? He said, no, I want you to lead. And so I set up the prayer time and then I asked Kenton to close out the prayer time. So it was seven years later, this really special prayer time over this godly man in our church and his wife and Kenton, I mean, they have decades of history, but both of us together, we shepherded that moment, you know, and it was an honor to shepherd that moment with Kenton.
- [29:43]
A
I get it. And I love what you said about. You probably have no idea how many ways he had to die to himself. Yes, I think that's true. What did you have to do to step into that role that surprised you as far as the succession went?
- [29:56]
B
Yeah. I had an executive coach during my time at Lifeway and he was concerned that I would be able to not lead with a turnaround or startup mentality. Because at Lifeway, I was often, you know, we're launching the Christian Standard Bible. I mean, that's a startup, right? And a startup posture in leadership is you have to move, you have to make decisions, you have to be bold, you have to rally people. But when you come into. If you have that Harvard Business Review book, Your First 90 Days by Michael Watkins, you know, he's got startup realignment, sustained success, turnaround, and like the life cycle of an organization, essentially. Essentially. And if it's a sustained success, you don't lead like a startup, you don't lead like a turnaround. You listen, you wait, you learn, you be the student. Yes. That's how. And so if you can't. In that framework by Michael Watkins, it's basically everybody's gonna eat, but there's farmers and hunters, and a sustained success means you have to farm, you have to plant, and you have to wait a season for it to grow. A startup and a turnaround, you have to go kill and eat today. Right. So it's like a different posture between a hunter and a great analogy. It is a great analogy. And so my executive coach was like, can you go be a farmer because you've been a hunter? And I remember telling Steve, Steve Graves, I was like, man, you think I want to always be a hunter? I love the idea of farming. So coming in to Mariners at the first, really before COVID I just viewed myself as, I'm going to do the best I can to preach great sermons on the weekend. I'm going to learn Southern California. I'm going to love the people. I'm going to run the playbook as the playbook was. I'm not going to come and introduce new values or a new mission statement. I'm just going to run the playbook. And then over time, as God directs, and I'll make tweaks and changes along the way. Covid sped that up. Covid sped that up.
- [31:53]
A
It's not business as usual.
- [31:54]
B
Yeah. COVID 19 caused me to have to lead back in startup mode because everything was shut down then. You're starting back.
- [32:01]
A
Yeah. And you were shut down a long time here.
- [32:04]
B
We actually started in the summer. Oh, you did? But we have outside.
- [32:08]
A
Yeah, that helps.
- [32:09]
B
We have outside.
- [32:10]
A
Yeah. Southern California. There's very few regions of the country where you can do that. Way to go. Yeah, Way to go.
- [32:16]
B
Yeah.
- [32:16]
A
And yet outside worship we did for.
- [32:18]
B
A long time, and we started six Mariners in the neighborhood that then became congregations. So we went into Covid with two congregations. We came out of COVID with seven congregations. So we launched five during COVID When.
- [32:30]
A
You look back over the last seven years, what have been some of the most maybe in hindsight or Maybe you knew at the time strategic decisions you made that have helped it go this well because it's a success upon success story. It's a growth upon growth story. It's yeah, like this has gone exceedingly well, at least from the outside looking in. So what have been some strategic decisions you made that at the time, or in retrospect, turned out to be good ones?
- [32:58]
B
During COVID launching baroness in the neighborhood and then turning those into new congregations really turned out to be a great strategic decision. We bent the resources of the organization towards multiplication. So by launching those, it changed how we spend. It changed how we spend our time. And multiplying has been really fruitful In Southern California. That's big. A strategic decision to invest a lot in young adults has been very fruitful. So we have a Thursday night service for young adults that we have over 2,000 young adults show up every Thursday night. And it's. I teach at it.
- [33:43]
A
What was the impetus behind that?
- [33:44]
B
I love it so much. It was, gosh, man, it started. It was a several year journey with the Lord. And this is one where I know he just gave me a burden for that community and that generation in Israel. We took a bunch of people from our church to Israel and Kenton actually led this experience. Kenton and I did that trip together where at Gideon Springs, you receive, you spend time with the Lord and you ask him to give. To give you a name. Ken's like an experiential learner. And it was really, it was really sacred moment. And my. It doesn't have to be your name forever, but like a sense of what you're. What's going to be part of your identity coming out of this time with God. And I believe that this next season I was going to be a wise shepherd. And I remember the guys I were with were like, come on man, you got to go bigger than that, you know, like change the world stuff. I'm like, man, I just want to be a wise shepherd. And I started seeing a lot of young adults in our church say things to me which felt at this time I wasn't prepared for it. So it took me. That's why it took several years. Like that was the sex talk that my dad never gave me or I mean, Eric's like a father to me. I still, I didn't. I always thought I was like the older brother. I hadn't gone into dad mode, you know.
- [35:06]
A
Right.
- [35:07]
B
And the more I was hearing that truly the church was speaking that over me. I had been leading a high school guys life group for Four years. So I had been a father figure to a lot of these guys. I met with them weekly for four years, and they graduated. And so my heart really, for that generation just kept expanding. So I called our young adult pastor, who's awesome. And we had just had a whole bunch of young adult groups. We didn't have a weekly worship service. And we just talked about making it the first service of the weekend. So Thursday night would be the first service of the weekend, but it would be for young adults. And so we did that 18. We launched 18 months ago. And it's just been. It's been really sacred and beautiful.
- [35:53]
A
What's different about it except the people who are in the room?
- [35:56]
B
Yeah, it's a great question. We get asked that a lot. My message. Because there's nothing. I mean, you know, I know you've seen this a lot on a Sunday. Here we have 8:30, 10, and 11:30. I gotta be really tight on my sermon because we gotta get the people out of that service and people into this next service. Thursday night, there's nothing. So I'm extra after. Right. There's no other service, so I might go an extra five, six minutes. I don't even know each week what it will be, but it's for sure. I'm talking to the young adult. I'm applying something to the young adult.
- [36:30]
A
So same message, but different stories, different angles.
- [36:33]
B
Not different stories much as maybe some different application. Or I may just double down on something and really go after the heart of a young adult. And then we also have extra worship and prayer at the end of. So the service goes about an hour and a half while our weekend services go an hour and five to 10 minutes. So it's an extra 20 minutes. We have people come forward for prayer every week. It's very. It's very much a worship environment that after the message, not just before.
- [37:06]
A
Do you see it as discipleship? Evangelism? Both.
- [37:09]
B
Both. Totally both.
- [37:10]
A
So people are inviting their friends.
- [37:12]
B
Yeah. And we're seeing people confess faith in Jesus and become his. But we also see a bunch of people with their Bibles and pens and digging in. It's so fun.
- [37:24]
A
Today's episode is brought to you by the preaching cheat sheet. So, preachers, I'd love to know if you can relate to this. Okay. It's Thursday night. Sunday's message still isn't coming together. I mean, you can even start early. And it's not quite right. Right. The pressure is building. It's hard to decide what to add, what to cut, how to Tie everything together. You want some family time. And you know by the time Saturday rolls around, you're just going to have to call it as it is, even if you're second guessing some of your message. Well, that's where my ten step preaching cheat sheet can help. It's your quick check guide to ensure you've got an engaging, clear and memorable sermon ready for Sunday morning. From your opening line to landing the plane at the end of your sermon, and every step in between. You can use the 10 steps during sermon prep, or even to start or to finish your message, whatever you want to make sure you are ready to deliver an impactful message and every single time you preach. And the big news is, I've just released a brand new version of the cheat sheet. So if you've downloaded it before, be sure to get the new version in your hands. We got a lot of feedback. I improved it still. Basically the bones are the same, but it's gonna be even better. Okay, you can download your copy for free by clicking the link in the description of this episode or by visiting preachingcheatsheet.com Again, that's preachingcheatsheet.com to download your copy for free or. Or simply click the link in the episode of this description. Wherever you're listening. So just a question so this doesn't end up in the comments. What's the cutoff for young adults? Like the 47 year old who's like, yeah, I am a young adult.
- [38:56]
B
47 should not be here.
- [38:57]
A
Should not be here. All right. Do you announce that from the front? You, sir, come back Sunday.
- [39:01]
B
At first I started making fun of it a little bit because sometimes in Southern California you'll have the 47 year old who, who thinks the 32 year old wants him, you know, and maybe so, but this is not the place to meet.
- [39:17]
A
Right, Right.
- [39:18]
B
And so I would say, hey, if some of you young adults are here and you notice that there's some older people, well, they have name badges on because they're on our prayer team. There are shepherding elders who are ready to be able to pray for you. And if they don't, it means they snuck in and they haven't yet realized that this service is not for them.
- [39:37]
A
So you kind of announce it without announcing it.
- [39:41]
B
We didn't at first and then we had to. And then for a little bit I did. And then it's not like that anymore.
- [39:49]
A
In your mind, what's the age range?
- [39:52]
B
20S and 30s.
- [39:53]
A
Okay.
- [39:53]
B
Yeah.
- [39:54]
A
So once you hit 39. Thanks. Happy graduation.
- [39:57]
B
It's probably more. My guess is the average is like 24 to 34.
- [40:05]
A
Sure.
- [40:05]
B
Like, that's probably the.
- [40:07]
A
So have you seen that group disappear from the Sunday services?
- [40:11]
B
That was the fear.
- [40:11]
A
Okay, yeah.
- [40:12]
B
What do we see? So the first Thursday night was killer. And I was like, oh, my gosh, is Sunday gonna feel like just really old?
- [40:19]
A
One service with eight people in their 80s?
- [40:21]
B
Yeah. And no, no, it did. In fact, it doesn't feel like there's been a. I think that we still have some young adults that prefer Saturday or Sunday. So it's like a different crew.
- [40:33]
A
Okay. So it's just different crew on the weekend. And so it's more a question not of subtraction, but of addition, thankfully, because.
- [40:41]
B
I was concerned that. Here's another reason we started it, because we have so many services. So we have this service at Mariners, Irvine, and on Saturday we have two. Sunday we have three. I would hear young adults say, I know there's young adults at Mariners. I just never meet them. I don't know which service to go to. There's five services. And so by starting a sick service where young adults know, I can go and find people in my community, my age range, same stage of life has been good.
- [41:11]
A
I've had Noah Herron on the podcast. He has Wade Church in Nashville. He says the main thing is people are looking for belonging. They're really looking for connection. And in the process, you introduce them to Jesus, et cetera, et cetera. Do you find the same thing in California that people are hungering for connection?
- [41:26]
B
People are totally.
- [41:26]
A
Connection.
- [41:27]
B
People are hungry for community, for sure. Absolutely.
- [41:30]
A
What are you learning about communicating to the next generation other than, yeah, I gotta change the application? Maybe the emphasis is a little bit different. Are you finding that there are certain things that, like, go back a decade in your preaching, because you've been preaching for years. Are there things you used to do that you don't do anymore? Things that you've started doing that you never used to do? What are some of the changes to meet this cultural moment?
- [41:54]
B
I think some of the things that. I don't think I've changed much. I think I might be doubling down more on some things. I do believe that the young adult generation is more fatigued now with the disappointment of the world than any other generation that I'm about to hit 50, so I've been doing this forever. But this current moment feels like there's more awareness that a lot of the things. I mean. So the iPhone came out in 07. Right. So a lot of the Young adults grew up with that and then they now realize they know they're not. They know I was experimenting on. I was an experiment.
- [42:36]
A
Yep.
- [42:37]
B
When I was in fourth grade, I got this thing and it wasn't good. And so they now have a bit of not just cynicism. It's more than that, it's deeper than that. It's. Some of the things I've heard in this life are bad for me. And so I think they appreciate some raw honesty about that. Almost like a bit of grit towards that. And then showing how the way of Jesus is refreshing. Everything in this world's been exhausting, but he invites you to rest. So I think I always had that in my sermon, but perhaps it's just a little bit more expressed now because the generation is so tired.
- [43:17]
A
I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but it feels to me in this moment like a decade ago, 15 years ago, you had to work harder to show that the world was bankrupt. Cause it still had a shine on the apple. And now you don't have to work as hard to show that the world.
- [43:31]
B
Is bankrupt for some people for sure. Right. And now in Southern California, one of the struggles I have is helping people realize they're bankrupt.
- [43:42]
A
Okay. It's still.
- [43:43]
B
But in young adult population more aware of it.
- [43:47]
A
So the parents are not aware of it, but the kids.
- [43:48]
B
Not as much as a whole. Not as much as a whole. I mean Southern California is very affluent, you know, and it's, it's working for you. And there's a lot of entrepreneurs and been able to achieve things and make things happen to help them. The idol that we have to constantly tear down in Southern California is achievement. And the way I try to do that is you have achieved and it's not been enough for you. It hasn't been enough. Do you really think the next business you flip is gonna be enough? You know, it's not gonna be enough. But there is real rest. So it's, it's throwing down, it's throwing down the cultural idol.
- [44:32]
A
It's a little Keller esque, what he was doing in New York City.
- [44:34]
B
Yes, very helpful.
- [44:36]
A
Like pointing out the false gods.
- [44:38]
B
I think Keller's thinking on assessing the idols in a culture is very helpful. Miami, when I was there, I think the idol more than success was like pleasure, right?
- [44:50]
A
Yeah.
- [44:50]
B
And so like, hey, you keep chasing pleasure when I would preach in Miami, but you keep waking up not really satisfied. Southern California. And this is maybe a generalization, but I don't see it as much as pleasure. As much as it's accomplishment. Now people find pleasure in the accomplishment and they can chase pleasure because of the accomplishment. But it's like, I win, I won.
- [45:12]
A
Got the house, got the career, got the promotion, sold to private equity, landed the part in Hollywood, whatever.
- [45:19]
B
Yes, all different disciplines has a form of winning.
- [45:24]
A
What was the idol in Nashville?
- [45:26]
B
See, in Nashville, I did less cultural analysis in Nashville.
- [45:33]
A
You're doing national analysis?
- [45:35]
B
Yeah, I was doing national analysis. And that honestly was bad for my heart. When we moved out here, I didn't want to repeat Nashville. I never. My seven years cried for Nashville. When I was in Miami, I used to cry over Miami, Southern California. I mean, I'll cry like Spurgeon would talk about. Unless you weep for the souls of people, you can't lead them to Jesus. And I didn't love Nashville like I should have loved Nashville. I was not the best Christian. I loved Jesus and followed Jesus, but I didn't live on mission the same way. And my role made me think nationally more than I thought locally, you know, and so I missed the burden for a city.
- [46:23]
A
You know, it's sort of a new thought, just saying, you know, Miami versus SoCal, you know, you see in the Old Testament, New Testament, there are all kinds of gods, small G gods everywhere. Haven't really thought about that. Like Seattle probably has a different God than Southern California, which has a different God than Detroit. And it's really important for a local preacher to exegete the culture.
- [46:43]
B
I agree.
- [46:44]
A
And figure out what that God is.
- [46:45]
B
And I mean, there's probably some similarities and there's probably some that transcend in western culture. But I 100% agree with you to exegete your local cultures. Helpful.
- [46:55]
A
I feel like I want to ask this question, but, you know, there's been a mass exit, particularly two or three years ago from Southern California by Christians, right?
- [47:04]
B
Yeah.
- [47:05]
A
Lots of well known preachers leaving. Lots of Christians fleeing the state. You've stayed.
- [47:13]
B
I love it here so much.
- [47:14]
A
Tell me why.
- [47:15]
B
I love the people first. I mean, I love the people. Kay and I have loved raising our daughters here. And then practically. I mean, my dad, when he was alive, he, you know, he would complain about the paper straws, you know, like he didn't like the paper straws. And I'd be like, dad, but look at this view. You know, like we'd go. My dad and I would go biking together. I'm like, come on, you can handle a paper straw for this, you know, But. But some people, especially during COVID California, was really frustrating for Some people, and I understand why. I mean, the rules were constantly changing. They had neighbors that had moved that were much more free to do things in other states. And so there was a lot of frustration. If someone was frustrated before COVID then Covid just really ramped up the frustration. You know, we know this. We need Christians everywhere.
- [48:13]
A
Yeah, we do.
- [48:15]
B
And you need light where there's darkness, you need salt in all spheres of life. And surely we don't want all the Christians to leave California.
- [48:25]
A
Right, right, right. And there are a lot of thriving churches. There are, there's across California, north to south. Yes, I'm here quite a bit and amazed to see the vibrancy.
- [48:33]
B
And Southern California has an amazing faith history. There's movements that came out of Southern California, from Calvary Chapel to Vineyard. I mean, movements, you know, that God did here. And we believe he's still working here in beautiful ways.
- [48:50]
A
So you're back in, I want to say, local ministry, but that's what it is. Right here in Irvine for the last eight years, what's been your biggest surprise?
- [49:03]
B
I truly was surprised from the very beginning of how approachable the people are, how kind the people are. People in Southern California are great. I mean, you go mountain biking and you come across another mountain biker, you wave or you'll ask, hey, you need help? Somebody's changing a tire. People are really kind here. I, I guess I didn't expect that because of the fast pacedness of Southern California, but there's really kind people here.
- [49:36]
A
What has been the biggest surprise about your role as lead pastor of a large growing church? What are you like? Oh, yeah. Wasn't expecting that.
- [49:48]
B
There's so many. There's so many. The weight of sermon prep was more than I thought it would be.
- [49:58]
A
How so?
- [49:59]
B
I had been preaching at every place, but I wasn't like in Miami, I taught probably 20 times a year. Here, 35 times a year. Just the weekly rhythm of being disciplined, to be in the text and study and hear from the Lord is very sanctifying. I mean, Kate, my wife, says you're a God. You're a more godly husband and dad than he used to be.
- [50:25]
A
Well, it could have gone the other way, you know, could have gone the other way.
- [50:27]
B
And I'm like, I should be. Because I spend more time, I'm in the text more, and because I've got the spirit of God within me, I should actually be. That should be happening. But there's a burden to that and just the non stop weight of it is more than I thought it Would be.
- [50:42]
A
Is there an extra weight because of the size and scope of the ministry?
- [50:47]
B
I don't think so.
- [50:49]
A
It was 200 people.
- [50:50]
B
I think I carry the same weight as the pastor of a church of 200. I honestly. And I learned this from my time at Lifeway. I think the pastor of a church of 200 has a harder job than I have.
- [51:05]
A
Let's talk about that.
- [51:05]
B
Yeah. I really do explain why. Yeah. Right now, as you and I are talking, there's for sure some crisis. There's for sure some marriage that is needing counseling. There's for sure a teenager that has a wrestle. And the pastor of the church of 200 likely gets pulled into many of those conversations. And he has the sermon.
- [51:32]
A
Yeah. His phone's ringing, her phone's ringing.
- [51:34]
B
And he has the sermon. And the person has the sermon. Yep. We have a. We have 70 pastors on the team. So because of that, there's. I mean, I still. I don't want to be removed. I want to smell like sheep and be. That's why I just did this memorial service. But I have a team of people. You kind of have to be at.
- [51:58]
A
This stage and if you don't have the systems to be somewhat removed, you're not reaching the people you're reaching.
- [52:04]
B
That's true. But my role, I'm able to work on that sermon more than that. Pastor of the church of 200 is the bi vocational pastors that we would serve when I was at Lifeway. Heroes.
- [52:20]
A
I know heroes like 40, 50 hours a week in a day job, plus meeting a church.
- [52:26]
B
Just my. I don't view because I know sometimes people will look at someone just cause the size of the church or something else that, oh, you know, Eric's a more skilled leader. I don't think I'm a more skilled leader. I would tell those bi vocational pastors, you are doing what I can. I couldn't do what you do. I'm amazed by you. I'm amazed by you, your ability to handle all of those responsibilities. I'm impressed by your ability.
- [52:56]
A
I remember 200. Have you ever led in that context before where you're trying to break the 200 barrier?
- [53:01]
B
No.
- [53:02]
A
Okay. I have. And I'll tell you, it's hard. And it's exactly that tension. You know, the preaching has got to be focused.
- [53:10]
B
Right.
- [53:10]
A
But everybody's got your number. Your phone's always ringing, your inbox is always full. You know, Warren Bird would be the first to say it's the hardest barrier to scale.
- [53:19]
B
I'm not surprised because You've got the.
- [53:21]
A
Meta view as well. What advice feeling for those pastors would you give them? What's going to help them in that moment?
- [53:30]
B
You can, you can rest in what God's called you to do and that he's the one who's going to pull it all together. You're doing a great work. You're doing a great work. I don't want to give them anything else to do. Like you're doing a great work. Looks like Nehemiah on the wall. You're doing a great work. Don't come down. Don't come down from the wall. Keep doing what you're doing.
- [53:54]
A
What has been hard for you to not be involved in?
- [53:59]
B
Yeah, this is one of my struggles as a leader. I'd say is one of my top struggles. There was a time when I actually thought when leaders would say things like, hey, you have to give up to go up, you know, or you have to do less things, the larger the organization gets. I thought this is, I'm showing my own sinfulness here. I, in my cynicism thought that's a very self serving thing to say. Like I thought the leader was saying that so they didn't have to do things. In other words, a leader would say that so that they didn't have to do a bunch of stuff they didn't want to do. But what I've learned is I was wrong and that they were right. By actually not doing everything, you truly do allow other people to move into places of responsibility and ownership where they can thrive. And that when I step in, I actually can unintentionally stop somebody from developing into the leader in that area. And so I have to. The reason it's hard for me is cause I love it all. Like I said at the beginning, I missed the local church when I was at Lifeway. I'm an operator. I love youth ministry. I love kids ministry. I love our outreach team. I mean, I love going on faith adventures.
- [55:21]
A
You'd be in it.
- [55:22]
B
I love all of it. I want to do it all. And so the hard thing for me, it truly is. I know you had Ashley Woolridge on here recently and he's been a great help for me. Oh my gosh. And I saw him share with you and he had shared this with me as well. He knows less and decides less than at any other place ever in the history at ccv. And that hearing it from Ashley, who I trust so much, his character, he's an amazing, he's an amazing godly man. That was challenging for me, like, I need. There's some things I'm probably in that I need to not be in.
- [56:06]
A
Can you give us an example?
- [56:09]
B
Some things I need to not be in. That I'm in. Yeah. Like, some. Like the facility. Well, I know. You know what I'm gonna make myself. I couldn't give that up.
- [56:21]
A
Your staff are gonna hold you accountable. You know what?
- [56:23]
B
The decision on the lawn to go artificial turf or grass.
- [56:27]
A
I'd want to be involved in that one.
- [56:28]
B
Me too.
- [56:29]
A
Oh, yeah. Come on, man. Are we gonna have lawn lines or not?
- [56:31]
B
I do not want artificial. It's too hot. It's not pretty enough. I want the real thing. So there's an example of. Every now and then I just latch in because I knew there was conversations about being artificial, and I was like, no, it's not gonna be artificial.
- [56:44]
A
So where did that land?
- [56:45]
B
It's pure grass, man.
- [56:47]
A
There you go.
- [56:49]
B
And it's beautiful.
- [56:51]
A
Yes, sir.
- [56:52]
B
But I think group strategy, local outreach strategy, kids ministry curriculum. I mean, things like that, I know they're all important, and I. Because of my history, I actually do have some experience in some of those things. To pull myself out of some of those conversations is best for the organization. The struggle I've had is I worry sometimes that some of the staff feels that I don't care, and I do care. And so we just had our annual pastor gathering, and I shared. You have no idea how much I love your area and how I would love to be. But what I've learned is not because I'm a better communicator and not because I'm the best strategist, but because of my position. The two best things that I contribute on a weekly basis is my communicating and overall strategy. And so I need to focus more on those things. That was, like, two weeks ago.
- [57:54]
A
Part of leading anything, and I think part of leading something large is the willingness to be misunderstood. Because for every funeral you do, there's 10 you don't do. For every wedding you perform, there's 20 that you don't perform. For every meeting you attend, there's 100 that you don't attend. What are you learning about at scale? Being willing to be misunderstood.
- [58:18]
B
Yeah, I think you said it. It's hard to improve on how you set it up. It is true. I think it can get counteracted a little bit with tenure and people really knowing. And I think this is just God's grace, and it's a supernatural thing. I think people in our church know I love them, and when they Know that he loves us. The no's are received better when people know they're loved. The other thing at scale is being sure that we do all we can as a church to help our people understand that Eric is not the pastor. We have a community of pastors. We have a team of pastors. It's not. I'm gonna do all I can to be sure we set up the right environment and structures where you're shepherded, but you might be shepherded by someone other than me, but you're gonna be shepherded. It's a community of shepherds. Not a single shepherd.
- [59:23]
A
And I think that's one of the. Back to the pastor of church of 100, 200. I think that is the inflection point. And just to talk to that pastor for a moment, I have that same struggle in what I do now. There's a lot of people who listen to this podcast who follow my leadership material, and it's amazing how little I know about what's going on in my company. I mean, my team field. So many emails, so many inbound messages that I just don't see, like, you and I can't see them. Or else I couldn't focus on my interview with Eric Geiger. I just couldn't do it. Couldn't write the questions, couldn't be here, couldn't be fully focused. Case in point, two weeks ago, I'm at an event in Chicago, and I'm walking down the road just looking for a place to go for dinner, and this couple shouts out, carrie. You know, which happens from time to time. They had emailed my assistant the month before, week before, to see if they could meet with me at this conference. I didn't know anything about it. She had politely declined, which is her job, because I was, quote, busy. I ended up having a half hour conversation with them right there on the street in Chicago. It was awesome. It was epic. And there's part of my heart that we do that a thousand times a month. I would do that with every listener 100%. And that tension, never. If it does go away, I think you have a problem.
- [60:42]
B
See, I love that about you, and I sense that in you. And it's true. I want to have the meetings.
- [60:48]
A
Yes, me too.
- [60:49]
B
It's just. I can't. Then also preach a sermon. You know, it's funny you say that, because, gosh, maybe two weeks ago, Ed Stetzer, one of my best friends, he and I went. We were actually meeting much of our pastors at an Angels game. California Angels game.
- [61:01]
A
Oh, that Sounds like fun.
- [61:01]
B
It was great. And he and I rode together and we were walking out and we were talking about this, about he had a certain situation that happened that day. And then I had one too, where we both felt that we had disappointed people by not being able to give them as much as they wanted of our time. And he had shared his, I shared mine. We were walking and I just went like a big sigh. And one of the workers for the angels was right in front. And she turned around and said, sir, that was a big sigh. Are you okay? And I said, man, you are so sweet. You are so sweet. I am okay. But the fact that you just cared, that means a lot to me. And she said, what's wrong? I said, we're just talking about how we disappoint people sometimes. And she says, well, how do you think the angels feel tonight? It was classic, man.
- [61:53]
A
That's true.
- [61:54]
B
It would have been a perfect, like if we had that on video, it would have been a perfect illustration.
- [61:57]
A
Even a great team. 40% of the time you're disappointed. Pointing your fans well. And I think that is a tension that I felt at 200. And you had to get over that. Like, I'm not doing your wedding, I'm not doing your funeral, not gonna meet with you. That moves you to 500. Other things move you to a thousand. But it's just attention that never goes away. And if it does go away, I think there's something wrong with your soul.
- [62:17]
B
And 100%, we must be the people that want to be with the people.
- [62:21]
A
Right. And when you have that moment, take it.
- [62:23]
B
Yes.
- [62:24]
A
If it's in your calendar, you're not running off. Take it.
- [62:26]
B
Agree.
- [62:27]
A
So gotta ask you about this, because I gotta tell you, the first impact I had with you long before I met you was over 20 years ago when Simple Church came out. When you and Sid Tom Raynor wrote that book that rocked the church. And I remember getting a copy of it. And when did that come out?
- [62:44]
B
2004, I think it was 2006.
- [62:46]
A
Six, okay. Oh, yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
- [62:49]
B
And write it 20 years now. Yeah, it's crazy.
- [62:52]
A
So guess what? You're looking at a guy who read it and implemented things almost immediately. First of all, I want to thank you for the mass exit out of our church when I shut down a lot of ministries. No, I take full responsibility. I learned how to lead change a lot better after that. But we went from if you can dream it, you can do it church to a simple church model.
- [63:12]
B
You had a Menu, let's put anything. There's so many people, oh, you want.
- [63:15]
A
To run that ministry?
- [63:15]
B
Yeah, you go ahead.
- [63:16]
A
Going back to doing whatever people tell you to do. It wasn't a strategy, that book. And if you're a church leader of my vintage, you remember how impactful that book was. It rocked a lot of us, and literally, I think, helped change the church landscape for a lot of us. And it was a gift. I mean, we started running. Once those people left, a lot of them came back. And then we got really aligned around our mission, vision and strategy, power and alignment. Number of unchurched people that showed up at our church went through the roof when we relaunched a year later as Connexus Church. And the rest has been amazing. But that was a very painful transition. Learned a lot about change. Disappointed a lot of people when I say you can't do your ministry. You know what I learned in that season? What you become involved in becomes the mission.
- [64:05]
B
Yeah.
- [64:05]
A
So if you run the Men who Love to Mountain Bike Saturday morning Breakfast Club, and I come to you and I'm like, eric, we can't run that anymore. You're like, great, I'm gonna find a new church.
- [64:16]
B
Yeah. Because they feel like you just killed the mission, the whole mission. Your mission was, do you know I.
- [64:22]
A
Have two unchurched guys? It's like, yeah, great, there's six of you in your mountain club thing. But, like, you know, whatever. So anyway, lots of lessons. What I want to know is how much of that 20 years later, when you think about leading something as large as. As Mariners, still applies and what would you change?
- [64:41]
B
Yeah, there's not a lot that doesn't apply. Now. It could be my bias. You wrote the book because I did the work. And it's also. It's not because the book was successful. It's because I did a lot of thinking.
- [65:00]
A
I still live by it. Complexity doesn't scale. No.
- [65:02]
B
For sure. And you've seen a lot of organizations who have a growth run, and then they get complex, and then all they are is program managers, and they just manage decline for a whole lot of years. So when you grow to a place that allows for complexity, and at some, you know, whether it's 800 or 1500 or 2500, there's some place where a church grows, and I think it depends on the area of the country and how expensive it is to have a facility, but at some place, a church grows to a place where you can afford complexity. And then when you can afford complexity, that's when you have to decide. No, no, no. We're carving out the extra resource to stay focused, to stay on mission. Because when you can afford complexity and you bring complexity in, then that's when people defend their complexity.
- [65:53]
A
Right. Can you say more about that? That's really. You know, I hadn't thought about that angle. Either forgot about it or I hadn't thought about it. But there is a point, particularly if you're good. And I'm thinking about our mutual friend Craig Groeschel. He loves constraints.
- [66:07]
B
Yeah. I mean, Craig is a genius. He's got a great statement where he says simplicity creates growth, and then growth creates complexity. So you have to be careful that you. If you want to continue to grow and reach new people, you got to fight against the complexity. When a church is in startup mode, they're not fighting against complexity. You're fighting to have a church.
- [66:30]
A
Totally.
- [66:30]
B
And then at some point you get to a. And the reason I said the size can vary. I mean, to have a facility in Southern California is more expensive than to have a facility in the middle of Tennessee. You know, so you might get complexity earlier in a place where you don't have to allot as much budget towards facility. Right, right. But there is a number or a place, a threshold where you can afford. Let's just hire that away.
- [66:56]
A
Exactly.
- [66:57]
B
And then, I mean, we've seen this. I mean, our friend Tony Morgan, who sadly passed away, I mean, he constantly had the data that if you were overstaffed, you actually. I mean, he literally sending this quarterly report out every year.
- [67:09]
A
I know.
- [67:10]
B
And very few people do anything with the data that says if you're overstaffed, you actually are hurting mission.
- [67:18]
A
You're depriving your volunteers, you're taxing your budget. And, you know, I don't know if you've seen this or not. The people who say they're the most understaffed statistically are the people who are the most overstaffed.
- [67:28]
B
That's hilarious.
- [67:29]
A
I've consulted those churches and I know the ratio. It changes. Could be 1 to 101 to 81 to 75. For every 75 attenders, you should have one staff member. It varies depending on who you're listening to.
- [67:40]
B
I always look at compensation percentages more than interesting. Only because we pay people in dollars.
- [67:49]
A
So as a percentage of overall budget.
- [67:50]
B
Yes. Now you have to look at apples and apples because some people outsource their custodial and people. But. But still. But I think that's the.
- [67:57]
A
Where do you like to be on that for Mariners?
- [68:00]
B
I mean, I. I like to be 40 to 45. You know, I think that's the number. Which is where we are.
- [68:06]
A
Where you are.
- [68:07]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [68:07]
A
I think Chris Hodges is 35%, which is insane.
- [68:10]
B
35. And then I think Craig is like 32 to 35.
- [68:15]
A
Exactly.
- [68:15]
B
I mean, the reality is everyone or lots of people can say it must be nice to be. To be those guys and have to carve out resources to launch new congregations like they have. But if you want to be honest, you have to say, but they had the discipline to stay so less staffed to carve out. You could do it too.
- [68:40]
A
And that was my original point.
- [68:41]
B
But very few people. Yes. He lives below his knees, so disciplined.
- [68:44]
A
So that he has the money when the opportunity arises to launch another campus. He's a genius and so on. And you can do the same thing. But the point being it would be easy to hire it away. It'd be easy to say, you wanna run that program? We have some extra money here. You just go ahead and do it. And soon you're bloated and you're spending 60% of your salary on staff and you don't have any money for loads of load.
- [69:05]
B
It is fast. Yeah.
- [69:07]
A
Doesn't take long.
- [69:07]
B
And then once it gets there, it's painful to un. Get it there. And that's when the complexity. So then you hire this person from this specialized thing. And not only do you have the volunteer of the mountain biking group, you have the. The staff member who their whole mission is this.
- [69:25]
A
The ministry of mountain biking groups.
- [69:27]
B
And I love mountain biking. I love mountain biking.
- [69:28]
A
Exactly. For six people.
- [69:29]
B
Right, right.
- [69:30]
A
But we've been around since 1999. You can't shut us down.
- [69:34]
B
We have our own shirts, dude. How are you going to take us away? We have shirts.
- [69:39]
A
What if tomorrow is the day that someone comes to Christ through this ministry and you're killing us?
- [69:44]
B
Oh, it's painful to hear.
- [69:45]
A
It is really tough to hear. So updating the message of simple church to two decades later. Anything you'd change?
- [69:52]
B
Well, a couple things happened that I think reinforced. It came out. The book came out in 06. We had the recession in 08.
- [69:59]
A
Yeah, that's true. For simplicity.
- [70:02]
B
It actually people were able to say, okay, as we come back, if they made some wise decisions, let's only finance what we're our discipleship process. Let's resource that. Then a couple years later is when multiple campuses really took off. And the reality is, if you're going to multiply, it's much easier to multiply when you're simple. It's very hard to multiply a complex organization. It's hard to multiply a complex list of programs. Right. And so I think Simple Church was related to helped during the recession. I hope it did. I wanted to be helpful. And then with multiple campuses, also Ed and I. Stetzer. He was, during that time writing a lot on mission. Missional. Missional was the buzzword. And he and I spent a lot of time talking about how there was a relationship between simplicity and missional because you created margin in people's lives to not always be at the church campus, but to be able to be on the homeowners association board, to coach their kids a little league game, to know their neighbors. So simplicity in terms of programming creates margin for mission. So I think those conversations after Simple Church came out were good. Obviously, it's not an inerrant book. Oh, yeah, it's totally fallible. I don't believe it's anywhere close to perfection, but I think some principles are good.
- [71:26]
A
But a general principle applies. Complexity still doesn't scale, and I think the church needs that. Eric, this has been just so much fun, man.
- [71:36]
B
It's been an honor, man. You're welcoming me in here anytime we're in our studio.
- [71:40]
A
I know we're here at Mariners, and I'm so grateful for that.
- [71:43]
B
I love that you came, man. It means a lot that you're here.
- [71:46]
A
It means a lot that you would host us. What is one word for church leaders? Not a single word, but, like, what's a word for church leaders? Wow. You already used it. All right. No. What's a piece of advice, a word you would have for church leaders listening today that would either encourage them, challenge them, or help them to think differently.
- [72:11]
B
Your convictions matter more than you realize because they shape the whole church that you're leading, the staff team that you're pouring into. So be crystal clear on your convictions internally and then be able to articulate those to others. Because your convictions, this holy burden, this holy sense of this is why we're doing this. That matters more than, like, here's the programs that we do or here's the systems that we're running. Have any sense of holy mission or holy conviction. Be crystal clear on that. Receive it from the Lord. He wants to give that to you. Joyfully. Receive it. Don't be afraid of your convictions. Lead with them. That's what inspires people. Lead with your convictions.
- [73:05]
A
I see a joy in you.
- [73:07]
B
Sweet. I want it.
- [73:08]
A
I see it in your marriage, too, because we've spent a little Bit of time.
- [73:11]
B
She's the best man.
- [73:11]
A
She really is. You have an amazing wife.
- [73:14]
B
I know.
- [73:16]
A
What has kept. Cause you're pushing 50. You told me.
- [73:18]
B
Come on.
- [73:19]
A
All right. What has kept your joy alive? This is the age. And our mutual late friend, Tony Morgan, he and I used to talk about cynicism and he's like, this does not get easier as you get older. What has kept your joy?
- [73:34]
B
I still can't believe that Jesus saved me, you know? Yeah. So, I mean, I became a Christian end of my junior in high school, going into my senior year. And I was totally. I mean, I was. I sold drugs, I was arrested. I was a wayward kid. And Jesus rescued me. And I don't think I've gotten over his grace. And so when I think of what I was and the trajectory that my life was on and I look at what God's done for me, not only what he's blessed me with here, which he has. I love my daughters, I love my wife, but the fact that I'm just his, that I belong to him and that he's committed to me. I have a lot. I have everything from him. He's everything. He is everything. He's better than anything else.
- [74:29]
A
You know, you're here in California. You mentioned grace being the thing that keeps you joyful.
- [74:34]
B
Yeah.
- [74:34]
A
Earlier today, I interviewed Megan Fate Marshman. She talked a lot about grace. Does grace resonate in a place like California?
- [74:42]
B
And they understand what it is for sure. Yeah. Because they're tired, you know.
- [74:47]
A
Because you said it's achievement.
- [74:50]
B
Yeah. Because grace says you don't have to earn. I know you're trying to. What are you. What are you trying to earn? You just receive. You don't have to achieve. You just receive. Don't you want to just receive? Hasn't the achieving failed you? Don't you just want to receive what he's done for you? Yeah, when people get grace, it. Grace changes you.
- [75:11]
A
Well, you've written a lot of books. You are doing an incredible job here at Mariners.
- [75:18]
B
Thanks, man.
- [75:19]
A
People want to connect with you. Is there a resource you want to direct them to? And where can they find you online these days?
- [75:24]
B
Yeah, I need to get back to blogging. I used to do it.
- [75:29]
A
I checked your blog out. It's like you got to post a year or something like that.
- [75:34]
B
I'm preaching every week, so I still. I still@ericiger.com. i do have a book coming out next September or October with Tyndale on leadership. Oh, cool. And we're going to look at you.
- [75:46]
A
Should come back for that.
- [75:47]
B
I'd love to. I'd love to. It's going to. We're going to look at Nehemiah and the intermingling roots beneath the surface. So not just vision, but what's the roots beneath the surface that create vision? Not just servanthood, but what's the roots beneath the surface that create vision? So it's gonna be called the Rooted Leader, and I'm excited about that. I've already turned in the manuscript. You know how it is.
- [76:04]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [76:04]
B
I mean, it's already in, but it is not out forever.
- [76:06]
A
The baby's not born for a while.
- [76:07]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
- [76:08]
A
Well, that's great, Eric. Thank you so much, Eric.
- [76:11]
B
Thank you, man. Honored man.
- [76:13]
A
That was a lot of fun and a huge shout out to Mariners and the team there. They hosted me for an entire day where I filmed podcast episodes and some other work that we were doing. First Class. Absolutely first class. Loved it. And guess what? We'll do it again, right next episode. We've got Faith, Yuri Cho coming on and we're going to talk about preaching through mental health challenges including depression, mental health, the Holy Spirit, Gen Z, and a whole lot more. Also coming up, Dr. Les Parrott and Judah Smith, Shanti Feldon and Dr. James Sells, Tim Stephens, Bobby Gruenwald, Tim Timberlake, Tom Raynor, Dr. Carolyn Leaf, J.D. greer, and a whole lot more. Hey, if you want show notes, you can get them right now in my Art of Leadership Academy. We've got 10,000 plus leaders in the Academy. You can create a free account, absolutely free, no tricks. We don't ask you for your credit card or anything like that. And you can get the show notes. There's some really vibrant conversations happening inside the Academy. If you're looking for a troll free community, head on over to theartofleadershipacademy.com or just click the link in this episode and then that'll take you right there. Thanks for listening. If the conversation was helpful, please leave a rating or a comment or review wherever you're listening. And don't forget to share it with a friend. I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.