CNLP 759 | Preaching Through Depression — Faith Eury Cho on Mental Health, the Holy Spirit, and Gen Z

Summary

The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast | Episode 759 Guest: Faith Eury Cho Title: Preaching Through Depression—Mental Health, The Holy Spirit, and Gen Z Release Date: October 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deeply honest and practical episode filmed live in Chicago, Carey Nieuwhof sits down with pastor and author Faith Eury Cho. Their conversation explores what it looks like to lead, preach, and plant a church while navigating depression and anxiety. Themes include mental health for leaders, the mystery of the Holy Spirit’s presence, preaching to Gen Z, cross-cultural church planting, and navigating leadership as a woman and Asian American. Faith’s vulnerability and wisdom provide encouragement for any leader managing pain, self-doubt, or creative exhaustion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Launching a Church in Crisis

• Faith and her husband planted Mosaic Covenant Church in NJ just as Covid-19 hit ([05:23],[06:29]).
• Losses included: income, team, venue, and stability—“Are you really a church planter if you have no money and no people?” ([07:08]).
• Faith describes the season as “theologically formative.” It forced full dependence on the Holy Spirit rather than plans or experience:

  “Knowing that God has called you to do something is not enough. It’s the dependence on his Holy Spirit’s presence…” ([08:57] Faith).

• Initial growth was slow, with stories of relying on God for daily provision (“we had $30 left” [09:29]) and seeing miracles—such as God assembling a multicultural team through unexpected “nudges” ([13:09]).

2. Mental Health, Genetics, and Spiritual Life

• Faith discusses genetic predisposition to anxiety and depression:

  “I have two of the genetic mutations that make me more prone to anxiety and depression.” ([23:14] Faith).

• Hearing from doctors that her struggles were not “her fault” was liberating ([23:23]).
• She integrates medical stewardship (supplements, exercise, sunlight) with openness to the Holy Spirit and healing:

  “Not negating reality…but at the same time, not negating faith.” ([24:23] Faith).

• The challenge: Don’t let a diagnosis become identity—“If you live in partnership with the Holy Spirit…you live in step with the Holy Spirit…” ([25:36]).
• Key practice: Pausing in moments of overwhelm, asking “Holy Spirit, did you give me permission to go here… what’s your perspective?” ([26:52]).

  “Fear is so tempting. Anxiety is so tempting. We have to acknowledge that…” ([28:36] Faith).

3. Preaching with Vulnerability and Spiritual Obedience

• Preachers must “watch out for your mental health”—the enemy attacks mind, especially before preaching ([30:23]).
• Avoid embracing discouragement as identity: “You’re not wrong, but you’re also a child of God. That’s only half the truth…” ([30:53] Faith).
• The age of social/interest media shapes preacher’s minds; content shouldn’t just be “a summation of all the sound bites” but rooted in the Holy Spirit ([31:17]).
• Faith’s preparation style: Ongoing, organic, “never stopping sermon prepping,” blending study and spiritual availability ([32:41]).
• Vulnerability: Share when it serves people—not to meet personal or ego needs ([34:12]):

  “My posture is, will this serve the people… and if so, Holy Spirit may use it for your glory.”

4. Measuring Preaching “Success”

• Faith’s metric: Obedience to the Spirit, not smoothness or polish ([35:22]):

  “No amount of preparation… can really produce what only Holy Spirit can do. Was I obedient?”

• She avoids over-manuscripting, favoring room for the Spirit within her preparation ([37:04],[39:03]).
• Tension between over-preparation and under-preparation—find the sweet spot for your personality and context.

5. Reaching Gen Z and Multigenerational Churches

• Gen Z craves experience more than information ([42:15]):

  “They want an experiential knowledge… an encounter.”

• In highly diverse, urban church settings, the approach emphasizes space for the Holy Spirit, time to linger, and multiple ways to respond ([43:17],[44:39]).
• “Success” is collaborative: Blend prayer, emotional freedom, and respect for regional and cultural differences.

6. Developing Community in a Diverse Setting

• Faith’s church: 80–120 people, multiethnic, multigenerational ([45:45]).
• Building unity is hard; what unifies is shared experience of the presence of God, not just small groups or events ([46:10],[47:34]).
• Prepare the ground for spiritual outpouring through an intentional, context-aware prayer team ([48:42]):

  “Prepare the prayer team to till the soil… let Jesus determine your expectation, not your region” ([48:42]).

7. Women, Asian Americans, and Leadership Challenges

• Faith on being a woman in spaces where there’s less acceptance:

  “Knowing that everything you need to be obedient… you have.” ([54:33])

• Navigates low expectations or unfamiliarity (“the tone of your voice is higher… they don’t recognize your name”).
• On bridging gaps: Serve with humility and humor, but know “my job is not for them to like me or understand me, but what I can do is humble myself” ([56:27]).
• Insight on Asian American contribution: Don’t assume “your bubble is the only bubble”—embrace diverse voices for the fullest gospel expression ([57:56]).

8. Personal Boundaries and Sustainable Ministry

• How she manages multiple roles:

  “I just think about one thing at a time… When I’m with my kids, I’m not sermon prepping… I just handle one thing at a time.” ([59:40])

• Most resonant message from her ministry: “That God is with you… We know that cerebrally, but experientially, I believe a lot of believers have a difficult time.” ([60:31])

9. Experiencing Friendship with God

• Don’t overcomplicate—God’s presence requires simple acknowledgment, not elaborate rituals ([64:06]).
• Story from childhood: Faith’s first encounter with Jesus was deeply mystical and shaped her lifelong hunger for God’s presence ([62:12]).
• Key takeaway:

  “Holy ground is wherever you are with the Holy Spirit… Even as I’m speaking, I’m just acknowledging Holy Spirit. And I could feel his presence even now.” ([65:57]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On church planting during crisis:

  “Getting to your knees that’s required to birth what’s only a miracle by God… Every church that stands… it is a miracle.”
  —Faith Eury Cho ([08:57])

• On faith and depression:

  “When a doctor tells you, this is your destiny… it’s easy to identify with it… but if you live in partnership with the Holy Spirit… you live in step with the Holy Spirit…”
  —Faith ([25:36])

• On Holy Spirit and anxiety:

  “Meditation is an assault towards the storm. It’s extremely active and aggressive… I cannot create my own peace. I cannot create my own joy. I just say, Holy Spirit, create in me…”
  —Faith ([26:52],[28:36])

• On preaching and mental health:

  “It’s easy as preachers to either neglect that or to embrace it way too much—where we feel like 'this is who I am.' … But you’re also a child of God. That’s only half the truth…”
  —Faith ([30:23])

• On vulnerability:

  “If this serves you… not just serving me… Serving the people that I’m with, and if so, Holy Spirit may use it for your glory.”
  —Faith ([34:12])

• On preaching experience for Gen Z:

  “They want an experiential knowledge. Give God an opportunity to respond to you and have a posture to listen.”
  —Faith ([42:15],[43:24])

• On women in ministry:

  “You may feel the expectation lower and even the hunger of the room lower… But you have everything you need.”
  —Faith ([54:35])

• On unity in diversity:

  “The greatest unifying and melding thing that we’ve ever seen was when Holy Spirit would move in the room and everybody will be captured by His presence…”
  —Faith ([47:34])

• On divine simplicity:

  “It’s really as simple as acknowledging Jesus. That’s it. And when people think, oh, that's it?—I go, yeah, that’s actually really it.”
  —Faith ([65:57])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [05:23] – Pandemic hits Faith’s church plant journey
• [08:57] – Lessons on dependence: theologically formative crisis
• [12:48] – Assembling a multicultural church through following the Spirit
• [21:49] – Navigating depression/anxiety; genetic predisposition
• [23:23] – Liberation in medical confirmation; integrating biology and faith
• [26:52] – Managing anxiety and overwhelm with Holy Spirit pauses
• [30:23] – Preaching and mental health: enemy attack pre-pulpit
• [34:12] – Vulnerability; serving the people with personal stories
• [35:22] – How Faith measures “preaching well”: it’s obedience
• [42:15] – Reaching Gen Z: experience over information
• [46:10] – Building true community in a highly diverse church
• [48:42] – Prayer as ground-preparation for spiritual outpouring
• [54:35] – Being a woman in leadership/preaching
• [57:56] – Blind spots toward Asian American/immigrant leaders
• [59:40] – Faith’s boundaries: “One thing at a time”
• [60:31] – Most resonant message: “God is with you”
• [65:57] – Friendship with God: Practical steps to presence

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For Further Engagement

• Faith Eury Cho’s Instagram: @faithycho
• Faith’s website: faithuricho.com
• Book: Experiencing Friendship with God

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Summary Tone

Encouraging, honest, Spirit-dependent, practical, and deeply empathetic—Faith models vulnerability and authenticity throughout, weaving psychological, theological, and cultural insights applicable to a new generation of Christian leaders.

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For more notes and transcript: careynieuwhof.com

Transcript

[Faith Urie Cho]

The Art of Leadership Network. Watch out for your mental health. If you're a preacher, and I notice this especially before you get up until the pulpit, the enemy will attack your mind. And it's easy for preachers to either neglect that or to embrace it way too much.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Kerry here, and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life, in leadership today.

What do you do if you're struggling with depression?

How do you preach through that? What if mental health is like a regular part of your leadership? So today I sit down with Faith Urie Cho and we talk about mental health, the Holy Spirit, Gen Z, and a whole lot more. Faith is a leading communicator and author in today's space. And I gotta say, just a point of empathy for all of you who struggle with depression, and that is not uncommon in leadership. I've only had very brief bouts of, you know, depression depression or semi depression in my life.

But even having dipped my toe in that water, I've got a lot of empathy for people who struggle with it.

Famous preachers like Charles Spurgeon, many others struggle with depression. It's not unusual. The more creative you are, I think the more likely it is that perhaps you're gonna struggle with that at some point in your life. So just wanted to wrap my arms around you in this episode and I know Faith does as well. Faith has been a preacher since she was 19 years old. She has a passion to know the presence of God. You're going to hear that a lot. She holds Masters of Divinity with a concentration in Global Studies from Liberty. And along with her husband David, Faith co founded and co pastors Mosaic Covenant Church in New Jersey.

We talk about that.

She's also the founder and CEO of the Honor Summit and she's the author of Experiencing friendship with God and a matching devotional called Deepen your friendship with God.

So she's got a lot going on.

And we talk about balancing all of it and a whole lot more. Hey, for those of you who are.

New to the podcast, welcome. Really glad that you've come.

We've focused a little bit on preaching over the last little while. My buddy Mark Clark and I have got a brand new course called the Art of Preaching.

And you might say, no, that's not a new course.

Years ago. Yeah, but we totally rebooted it this year because, well, it's 2025 and it's time to update everything. We've grown, situations have changed.

So you can check that out on my channels or Simply go to theartofpreachingcourse.com where you can get access to it and, well, you may want to just.

Jump into the Art of Leadership Academy.

Which is where so leaders have jumped in.

We have well over 10,000 leaders now. It's grown exponentially over the last few months. That's where you're going to find the show notes and amazing conversation on episodes like this. So I'm going to jump into my conversation with Faith Yuri Cho, which we filmed live in Chicago. But first, a word from our very trusted partners. This podcast is brought to you by Belay. Well, what if your message could reach further without adding more to your plate? So you were called to ministry to change lives, not to chase algorithms, design graphics, or manage marketing campaigns. Yet too many pastors do that, and way too often the urgent demands of digital outreach pull you away from what matters most leading your people and sharing the gospel. You shouldn't have to choose between reaching more people and staying true to your calling. That's where Belay's expert marketing assistants come in. They help pastors like you grow your market presence without growing your to do list. If you're not sure how to start, here's what you do. Download Belay's free resource 15 Tasks a Pastor Can Delegate to a Marketing Assistant. You'll discover exactly what to hand off so you can focus on your calling, not content calendars. How do you do it? Well, text the word Carrie C A r e y to 55123. That's Carrie to 55123. Let belay help you lead with greater focus and greater impact. This episode is brought to you by Subsplash. Did you know that 30% of all donations are given in the month of December? And yet so many churches wait too long to prepare for it. If you feel like year end giving is unpredictable or even stressful, you are not alone. And Subsplash can help your church engage generous disciples and capture the momentum that powers life changing ministry. So don't wait until December to think about generosity. Start today. Subsplash can help you craft a vision, equip your team, and leverage tools that make it easy for your people to give. If you're looking to encourage year end generosity, Subsplash is the platform for you. With the lowest rates in the industry and tools that make digital giving seamless, there's never been a better time to start. Head to subsplash.com carrie to save $500 when you sign up. That's subsplash.com carrie and now to my conversation, which we filmed live in Chicago with Faith Yuricho.

Faith. Welcome to the podcast.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad to be here.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, we're glad to have you. You did? What a surprise. I'd love stats on this at some point, but a surprising number of people started to think about launching a church in late 2019, early 2020. I don't know what it was, whether it was in the water supply, whether the Holy Spirit was moving.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Totally.

[Carrie Newhoff]

But you and your husband did the same thing. It was in early 2020. You're like, let's plant a church.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Totally.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right. Great timing. Congratulations on that.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Thank you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Pick up the story. What happened? What prompts somebody to want to plant a church these days?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Well, for us, it was a long term thing. My husband had it in his heart for a while, and I caught the cold. I caught the disease, if you will. And 2019, we received a blessing from our church to transition out from our home church of near a decade. And we started off in this venture of faith. January 2020. And then at that point, we had a plan. We had people, we had a venue, we had income. And then.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Did you get income before you launched?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, I mean, a planned income.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay, Planned income.

[Faith Urie Cho]

A planned income.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Welcome to Church Planet.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Right, right.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Optimism reigns.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Absolutely. And March of 2020, it all went down. And our first week of team meetings was actually the first week of lockdown.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, great.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yep, yep. And the world as we know it. Right. Just took a whole turn and everybody was going through this global trauma. And basically within a couple weeks, we lost everything and we were all locked down. And my husband and I, we have four kids and we were in a parsonage that we had to move out. By June of 2020, we had no more income. We were living off of our savings.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Whoa.

[Faith Urie Cho]

We didn't have people, we didn't have a venue. And at that point, there was this question of, are you really a church planter if you have no money and no people?

[Carrie Newhoff]

That's fair. What happened to the people? Like, you could have met by zoom. But I mean, it was a period, you know, people, most people remember, where a lot of people moved out. And you're almost in New York.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Right, Right, absolutely.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So a lot of people fled. Did you have that happening to your core team?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Well, no, it was just a lot of confusion. Just, what is a church plant during a lockdown? Right. Like, good question. You know, we can't physically gather. And there was a lot of conversations, not just with the people, but across the board, amongst churches and amongst church planters like, what does it mean to gather? How do you rally people? How do you galvanize momentum when you cannot get into a physical room? And not only that, but if you are extremely gifted at casting vision while face to face. I mean, this is a time where people were hearing about Zoom for the first time. You know, I didn't know what Zoom was. I vaguely knew about Google Meets. Right. And so to all of a sudden click into a scre and try to figure that out. It was just a really steep learning curve for us.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It sounds like a recipe for completely moving in a new direction. We weren't called, we were hallucinating. You know, maybe it was the pizza, maybe it was the sushi.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Right.

[Carrie Newhoff]

God didn't call us to this. But your church is alive and well today.

[Faith Urie Cho]

It is.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So what happened? What were the mid course corrections you made to pull this thing out of the dumpster? What? Seems like the dumpster, right?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, definitely felt like the dumpster.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. And when you have no income and you got four mouths to feed. Six. Really?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Like that's an existential crisis.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Oh, absolutely. And it was one of the most theologically formative seasons of my life.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How so?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Because I think it's easy, especially as ministers, and if you have at least a couple years of experience, you start to think you know something, and you start to think that you have experience and a strategy, and you start to think really highly of your plans. And I went into this thinking, we know what to do. You know, we know what God has called us to do. And that felt like it was enough. Knowing that God has called you to do something is not enough. It's the dependence on his Holy Spirit's presence that getting to your knees that's required to birth what's only a miracle by God. I'm now convinced at this point in the whole process and journey of church planting that every church that stands, whether it's good, bad, small, or big, that it is a miracle. Because it is God that gives you the lampstand and it is God that decides to take it away. Right. And so seeing what it takes to actually birth this thing, realizing it's really not up to me. And I could plan and plan and hustle and hustle, but at the end of the day, it really has to be from the Lord. And also realizing everything that I've read and taught about the Holy Spirit in the Bible is absolutely true. Everything about God that we've been preaching is absolutely true. Because something that really challenged me during this season is, is it True. That Israel was led and fed by God alone. Like, is that actually true? Because, you know, we live in a day where we're like, well, yes, but, you know, you need this, you need that, you gotta steward this. And absolutely, all of that is absolutely true. You know, I believe in stewardship. I believe in learning by experience. I believe in impartation of wisdom and collaboration of strategy. And yes, all of that is good. But at the end of the day, it's God that leads and feeds. Right. And so getting to this place where we had 30 bucks left. Right. And no name to call, I think church planting networks, they press a lot about fundraising. Some of the first workshops that you go through is about fundraising. But how can you fundraise if you have no one to call, if you have absolutely no connection when you're kind of in a silo at a certain season of your life? Right. When your context is not the context of most people, that resource church plants. Right. Coming out of the Korean American church and having spent majority of my faith journey in the Korean American church and now being in the multi ethnic, multicultural sphere, I think that was just a big culture shock for me. And really the only assurance that we had was just who God was. And during that time when we had no one and nothing, that really made me revisit, do I believe what I know and I thank God for it. Would I go back to it if I could? No. But do I thank God for it? Absolutely.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, I love your story because so many of the stories that we hear are, you know. Well, we started with nothing. We were a thousand people week one, then 2000, then 5000, then we were 17 locations at month six. Not quite, but we get those stories a lot on podcasts like this. But this is. You're in the trenches, you're grinding, there's nobody left. And you eventually did launch and spoiler alert. Yeah. What were some inflection points? What were some moments like, how did you and your husband rally people when you couldn't even meet in person? What did you do to sort of, you know, resurrect what was left or start over again?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Absolutely. You know what? I'll be honest, and maybe some people will not like this because it's not going to be a clean formula, but we really had to depend on the voice of God. I remember there was once during prayer when I told the Holy Spirit, I don't have enough friends for this. You know, if you had me plant in California, fine. I think that'll work out great.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Is that originally Home base for you?

[Faith Urie Cho]

I've lived all over. Yeah, but I mean, that's where a lot of my connections, a lot of.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Your friends are and networks were.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, if you had me even plant across the river, 15 minutes, even across the river, I think I would have a better chance.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You mean in New York?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yes, in New York City. But now here I am in the one place where actually I don't really have much pull. So. Holy Spirit, did I get it wrong? Are you wrong? Am I allowed to ask that? I mean, it was a whole thing. And I remember even taking out my phone and saying, look at my phone, Lord. Like I don't have enough contacts from this county. I mean, that's the funny thing. I even have friends two hours away in southern New Jersey, but not even in this county, Lord, what do you want me to do? And not only that, but one of the things that I really felt the Lord was leading us to, because at the start we had generally a Korean American demographic in our team. But I really felt this unction of the Lord saying, no, I've called you to start a multicultural, multi ethnic church. And being an Asian American woman, and my husband and I being an Asian American couple, I just knew we could not force that. So how do you start a team? Given what we have given, even our experience, how do you even manufacture that? You cannot. But, you know, I would say the first 10 in our team were primarily other cultures, other backgrounds, even other generations. One thing I think is so wild is our church today. More than half are older than us, which is completely antithetical to the way I was brought up. Right. But every person that came in, the first 10, at least, were really led by God. So, for example, what that looks like on a practical level, one of my friends, she invited me to come worship on her rooftop. This is during the pandemic in New York City, in Manhattan on a Wednesday night with just her friends. And I remember thinking, I don't want to do that because it's in Manhattan and I don't want to cross the bridge right now. It's a big deal, right? And I just feel like, well, that's not where I'm trying to plant my church. Right. And so I thought it was just irrelevant, but I felt this unction from the Holy Spirit, go say yes. And so I go and see my friend and meet all her friends. And the two people that I interacted with that day were from New Jersey, one of which joined our church plant the next day because he said as we were conversing he said, I don't know why. And this is him not knowing anything of where I'm coming from or my contacts. He said, I don't know why, but I feel like the Lord is asking me to ask you about your church. He didn't even know I was a church planter. And so I told him our story, and he joined our team the next day.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So you did something really significant there. You turned to God with your complaints rather than sitting around in a strategy meeting going, we don't know anybody. This is the wrong county. We should be across the river, across the country, somewhere else, which is really interesting. And then you did launch. So pick up the narrative. How did that happen? 2020 was total recalibration.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Absolutely.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And then you eventually launched a couple years later.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yes. So it was a very slow, slow on ramp because, I mean, not to trigger anyone's memory. But during the next two years, we would have spikes of COVID and then everyone will have to be locked in if they even were in contact with somebody.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Toronto and New York were very similar in lockdown strategy. So it was almost. For us, it was 18 months where we basically. You could have opened, but then you were closed the next Sunday.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yes.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So we just held out for 18 months and open since then. But, yeah, it was very. It was a strange time.

[Faith Urie Cho]

It was. And it lasted a long time. I mean, everything New York City was doing, our county was doing. And so even up until a month before launch, half our team got Covid, so got tested with COVID So not even. We're in contact with someone with COVID Got tested with COVID And so even to that point, my husband and I had to go back to the drawing board, and we're wondering, can we even do this? Is this even possible? Not only that, but we couldn't even find a full worship team. And what's actually really beautiful about this story, and it's something that we chuckle about to this day because it's so beautiful. So, God, we didn't have a worship leader. We could not find one, which is actually kind of a rare situation, you know, and to the point where I'm like, lord, where are all the. Where are all the worshipers? Where are the worship leaders?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, you're not that far from Broadway.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Right. And so it was kind of a weird situation until finally a member of our team who was a former nun in a convent from the Catholic Church, she said, well, I know how to play the guitar, and I have led worship for the Catholic schools before. And so she had to learn all our contemporary Christian music, like, within two weeks. And we launched with her, and it was just her and me in the AMC theater. We didn't even have enough lights. But it's so interesting because through that, although it was, there was a lot where we could say, oh, we were lacking, but we were so rich in God's assurance by the time of launch that God was in this thing. So even when we felt like, okay, we felt like a couple months before launch, we felt like, this is time for preview, preview services. Like, it's time. And I remember my husband coming out of his prayer closet saying, I feel like the Lord is saying it's time to do previous services. And I remember chuckling like, okay, with who and with what? We had a microphone stand with no microphone. That's all we had, you know? And I'm like, okay. And like I said, we couldn't find a worship leader. We couldn't find this and that. We just rented out a hotel venue, and we put it out on Instagram and Facebook. Hey, we're going to have this service. Please join us. All are welcome. And about a week before this preview service, a church from Brooklyn, well, actually Manhattan, but then they had a campus in Brooklyn. They called us and they said, do you guys need stuff? And my husband was like, we need everything. And so in a couple days, we had 2U hauls come into our driveway filled with about $100,000 worth of equipment that we're still using to this day. And it was everything that we needed, not just for a service, but for a whole church. Sound equipment, everything. It's children's equipment, laptops, iPads, everything. They were going to just kind of sell it, but they were like, hey, we just feel led to give this to you. And so it was just kind of God's nudge, like, hey, I'm in this. I know it feels small, and I know it feels empty, but I'm in this. And so we rented out the AMC theater for lunch. And it was just me and this young lady, bless her heart. She was wonderful. And we led service at lunch in this very dark theater because we didn't know how to light it up at that time. But what's so crazy is that people walked out of that service. And a lot of the testimonies were, I've never experienced something so stripped down like that, But I felt God, and I felt the presence of God, and I want to come back because of that. And that was the start of our church.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So we may come back to the story of launching your church or where it is today in a little bit. But you've been pretty open about having anxiety and depression as a part of your life. And if I read correctly, it seems like that even might be genetic in your case. So I know in my own case I'm not wired the same way.

[Faith Urie Cho]

I'm.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I've been depressed for small periods, but it's not part of my default or to the best of my knowledge, my DNA. But every leader gets discouraged. I've been discouraged, I've wanted to quit. How did that play out in this difficult few years? Because it's hard enough on its own. But if you have that challenge of being wired toward depression and anxiety, this is the perfect storm. This is like, let's bring it all on you at once. So how did you. And the reason I'm asking the question, I'm curious about your answer. But there's a meaningful percentage of people watching, listening to this, who are wired the same way. So do you mind talking about that? Let's go back a little bit further. When did you first realize that you might be wired toward depression and, or anxiety?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Well, I always kind of felt it, you know, so generally when I look back on childhood, there was always just like an overcast. And I guess as I grew in self awareness, realizing, wait, not everybody feels this way. And later, having gone through some blood panels, really doing some research with the help of doctors, realizing, yeah, I have two of, two of the genetic mutations that make me more prone to anxiety and depression.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I didn't know it could be all that stuff. I heard it can be like wired in. But I didn't realize there was that level of biological testing to show that.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Oh yeah, to the point where multiple doctors, when they looked at my blood tests, they looked at me and they go, you're not crazy. I hope you know that you're not crazy, that this is not your fault. And oh my goodness, it set me free. Because you know, in the Christian world when we think, oh, joy is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Right?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Or we'll just pray this out.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, right. And you know what? I believe that joy is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. I believe that God heals. There's not a doubt in my mind that God does not or that God heals. Like, I know God heals. But also acknowledging that this is the present day scenario and how God heals, how God works through it, it could be different for some people. And I think just acknowledging, okay, like some people were born with certain handicaps. Right. Some people were born with certain things and just acknowledging, okay, this is my challenge. Right. And during that time, I had to be very aware of my body. Right. So with this genetic mutation, the way I metabolize certain things like methylfolates and things like that, it's different. And so making sure I have the right supplements, making sure I have sunlight, making sure that I run, that I'm exercising. So these are things that I'm doing to steward my present day situation. But yet I also believe that the Holy Spirit does allow me to experience his fruit as well. You know, on top of that. So not neglecting the fact that, hey, these are the cards that I've been dealt, that I've been dealt from birth, and just acknowledging that and not negating reality. Right. But at the same time, not negating faith. And I think what was huge for me was, you know, when a doctor tells you, this is your destiny, like, this is your lot in life, it's easy to identify with it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Like, I am to make that part of your identity.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Right. Like, this is my anxiety, my depression, this is mine to hold, you know, but it's like this. If you live in partnership with the Holy Spirit and you live in step with the Holy Spirit, let's say, like, Carrie, you and I were in the room and I were to be like, I need, like an actual thought leader here. I need, like an actual podcaster here, like an actual author, please. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I need.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I'd like that too, actually.

That'd be really great. Right, Right.

[Faith Urie Cho]

So. And like. But then, you know, Carrie, you would probably feel like, well, I'm here, right? I'm actually here.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right?

[Faith Urie Cho]

You know, like, why don't you look, why don't we have a conversation? And I feel like sometimes we treat the Holy Spirit like that. Like, oh, I don't have peace, I don't have joy. I'm a depressed, I'm an anxious person. This is who I am. If I keep talking like that, then I'm kind of negating who the Holy Spirit is to me.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So how do you experience that then? When, let's say it's not a good day or a good season or a good week. Pick a length of time. How do you invite the Holy Spirit into that? And then how does that make a difference? If that's even the right question?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, I think I have one of those sanctified pauses, right? Where when I'm starting to get overwhelmed and we all know what that feels like when you start to spiral just Taking a moment and just allowing that space for the Holy Spirit. And when I say space, I mean pause and choosing not to think for just a second. I mean, didn't it not say in Psalm 1 that those who delight in the law of the Lord and those who meditate on his words, right? Meditation is an assault towards all the lies, all the worries, all the things that are going on within you. It's assault towards the storm. It's the assault towards the panic. It's extremely active and aggressive. And so just choosing not to think my thoughts and asking Holy Spirit, did you give me permission to go here? Do I even have permission from you to ruminate like this? Because this rumination, it feels almost righteous. It feels almost wise to dwell on it. It feels wise to stay here. It feels almost like I'm looking out for myself to think about these things. But I'm asking you, because I don't trust my thoughts right now. I'm asking you, what are your thoughts? What's your perspective? Am I allowed to go here? And oftentimes Holy Spirit says no. Or if I feel nothing, if I feel like I'm not getting anything because the storm within is so loud, then I go, okay, then what are your words? What are your words? And I open up Scripture and I just think about that. I choose not to think about what I feel so tempted to think about. Fear is so tempting. Anxiety is so tempting. And I think we have to acknowledge that for what it is. You know, why does Jesus keep saying fear not? You know, it's a temptation to fear, right? Because it feels righteous. It feels wise, right? And so I think just choosing not to trust in my thoughts and casting my thoughts and making it submit to Jesus Christ and choosing to meditate on his Word and allowing Holy Spirit to do the rest, because I cannot create my own peace. I cannot create my own joy. And I don't sit there trying to create it. I just say, holy Spirit, create in me. Create in me a clean heart. Restore unto me the joy of your salvation. Right? And then. And I just give him that space to create what I do not have. And sometimes I do have to move forward before I feel it. But that's where the faith comes in, right? And I think sometimes we're trying to bypass the mystery by needing to feel it before we move forward. No, I move forward when I need to, trusting that God will create it in his time.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So you're also a preacher, and you think about Spurgeon, who famously struggled with depression, et cetera, et cetera. Tell us a little bit about what you are learning.

I want to go in a couple.

Of different directions, but what are you learning about mental health and preaching?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Ooh, watch out for your mental health if you're a preacher. Yeah. I mean, because. And I noticed this especially before you get up until the pulpit, the enemy will attack your mind. And it's easy for preachers to either neglect that or to embrace it way too much. Where we feel like, this is who I am. Right. And I am just a broken person. I mean, you're not wrong, but you're also a child of God. That's only half the truth, you know? And I think we either neglect it or we embrace it so much to the point where we start to coddle it too much. Right. I think there are times when we need to just acknowledge, like, oh, this is warfare. And sometimes the best thing you could do is. Yeah. Actually move forward and ignore it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right.

[Faith Urie Cho]

You know, and not bite. Right. Or sometimes, yeah. It takes a moment to process. Maybe this is a wound that God is highlighting. And so I do think of it as a case by case situation. But I think if you are a preacher, to have your flags up, you know, and make sure that you are guarding what's in your mind. I think that's one thing that's interesting about social media and this age of social media, or what people call interest media these days, because now we're at a season in life for the first time perhaps, where we're not engaging in what goes in our brain. Like, we're letting the algorithm determine what's the content of our brains, whereas 20 years ago, this was not the case. So I think in this age where social media and preaching is so intertwined, now I think just being very mindful, you know, when you're preaching, are you preaching in the summation of all the sound bites that you've heard, or is it really the fruit of the Holy Spirit and is it the work of God that's coming out of you? And I think it's something to think about. It's a whole nother conversation, I think.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What is your preparation process like as a preacher?

[Faith Urie Cho]

You know, I don't have a formula, and that's also because I am a little chaotic by nature, you know, so it's so funny because people ask me, like, what are your rhythms? Like, what are your rituals? Whatever you. And when I think about it, my rhythm is. I have no rhythm.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right, okay, so you don't have like a set wake time, set study times, anything like that?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah. I mean, I study and I, you know, and I. And I do all that, but there's no rhythm to it. And I think some of my best sermons actually came when, like, I'm, like, brushing my teeth and I feel like God is highlighting something.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Got the download?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, you get the download. And I feel like, okay, for which service is this? For which event is this? You know, and I feel like, oh, it's for next month. It's for this event. And so I would say when people ask about sermon prepping, I'm never stopping sermon prepping. It's an ongoing thing. You know, I think just being available for the Holy Spirit and letting Holy Spirit download when he wants is a big thing. And also just making sure that I'm doing my due diligence in studying and making sure that I have the right resources and all that, that definitely comes into play as well.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You're also known for your vulnerability. Where is the line on vulnerability in preaching for you? I think it's different for everybody.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, but where.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What.

What are you learning about vulnerability and sharing your story in the pulpit or when you're speaking?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn't know I was known for vulnerability, but, you know, but.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I would say, well, talking about your depression and genetic. That's not every. There's a lot of people keep that quiet still, even today.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Right? For sure. You know, I would say when I feel like it's of service to people, you know, when I feel like if this serves you and making sure that it's also not just serving me, you know, that it's not just me doing it in a compulsive way out of the need to prove something to myself or maybe even this compulsive desire to prove something to God, but making sure that my posture is, will this serve the people that I'm with? And if so, Holy Spirit may use it for your glory.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How do you know if you preached? Well, I think that's a challenge for a lot of us. I think most preachers are depressed on Mondays. It's adrenal. But it's also like, oh, did I.

Do a good job?

Or you think you did a great job and nobody responds. You think you did a bad job. How do you know that you preached well?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Oh, that's a great question. And you know what? Sometimes my flesh does take over, and I'm like, oh, man, that wasn't my best. But I would say what I try to keep myself in check with is, was I obedient? You know, was I obedient to what he wanted me to say, was I obedient even to his nudge? Right. No amount of preparation, although preparation is good and expected, but no amount of preparation can really produce what only Holy Spirit can do. And I think so. For example, if I go in with a perfectly outlined 30 minute sermon with an intro and conclusion that is workshop worthy and if I have all that, but if I feel the unction of the Holy Spirit saying no, you gotta, this is what I want you to say. And if I'm saying no, I rather hold to this outline and I'd rather just do that. It's really a question of was I obedient to Jesus because I'm his messenger? I'm not my messenger, Right. And so I think that's the metric that I like to hold myself to.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I think there's a spectrum of over preparation. And under preparation, you're right, you can totally over prepare and like no reliance on the Holy Spirit. Here are my points. Don't get in my way. I've thought this through. Underprepared is, yeah, I didn't really work on it that hard. Totally, you better come through for me, God. Where in your mind do you fall and then where do you think you should fall in terms of, you know, being adequately prepared but also not being under prepared?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yes, that's a great question. And I come from a very charismatic Pentecostal background, right. Where it's.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So what is the tendency there?

[Faith Urie Cho]

The tendency, at least from my background and my upbringing, and this is not saying everyone in this house of thought is like this, but from my upbringing it was literally like, be ready in season, out of season, and whether you're prepared or not, you better be ready to be a mouthpiece of the Holy Spirit and, and just allow him to use you. Right. And a lot of it is off script and just being readily available to God. Very little emphasis on preparation, but you know, being prepared spiritually, if you will. Right. So I consider myself to be a bit of a spiritual mutt. Like I've been everywhere and I've been trained in so many different spiritual disciplines. You know, I've been to the Reformed church, to the Pentecostal Church and everything in between, you know. And so I would say the way I approach preaching, it's kind of a mix of all the things that I've been trained with, where I do study and I do do the reading and I do do the Greek, the Hebrew, all of that stuff. But at the same time just, you know, can't forget how I was raised and making sure that I'm available for the Holy Spirit to use when I'm up at the pulpit.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Are you full manuscript bullet points, no notes? How do you walk in?

[Faith Urie Cho]

I am half bullet points with a little bit of manuscript. I don't fully manuscript the whole thing because I find, at least for me, the way I preach. When I have a full manuscript, I actually don't preach as well.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How come? I'm interested.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, because I get really focused on what I thought would be a good idea instead of being attuned to what the Holy Spirit is trying to say to me. And that's me. And I've seen some amazing manuscript preachers. This is not to say, oh, that manuscript preachers are not listening to the Holy Spirit. They definitely do. At least for me, the way the Lord has designed me and perhaps even the way that I've been trained in the beginning. I have found that when I'm too manuscripted, especially if all that's coming out of me is like the need to make sure that I, word for word, write down every single thing, then I know. Oh, I think I'm starting to feel nervous about this and I'm starting to control this too much, you know, and so when I feel that, I take a step back and say, okay, Jesus, where should I leave room in my notes for you to do your thing? You know? And so sometimes I cut down my sentences to like a word or a phrase so as not to get too hung up to say a certain thing a certain way, but also just making room to. I mean, some would call it ad lib. Right? Some would call it, you know, just going with the flow. I mean, whatever you want to call it. But I would say just being open to how the Holy Spirit wants to breathe on that revelation.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Today's episode is brought to you by the preaching cheat sheet. So, preachers, I'd love to know if you can relate to this. Okay, it's Thursday night. Sunday's message still isn't coming together. I mean, you can even start early and it's not quite right. Right. The pressure is building. It's hard to decide what to add, what to cut, how to tie everything together. You want some family time. And you know, by the time Saturday rolls around, you're just going to have to call it as it is. Even if you're second guessing some of your message. Well, that's where my 10 step preaching cheat sheet can help. It's your quick check guide to ensure you've got an engaging, clear and memorable sermon. Ready for Sunday morning. From your opening line to landing the plane at the end of your sermon and every step in between. You can use the 10 steps during sermon prep or even to start or to finish your message, whatever you want to make sure you are ready to deliver an impactful message every single time you preach. And the big news is I've just released a brand new version of the cheat sheet. So if you've downloaded it before, be sure to get the new version in your hands. We got a lot of feedback. I improved it. Still. Basically the bones are the same, but it's gonna be even better. Okay. You can download your copy for free by clicking the link in the description of this episode or by visiting preachingcheatsheet.com Again, that's preachingcheatsheet.com to download your copy for free or simply click the link in the episode of this description. Wherever you're listen, listening.

So you mentioned half your church is sort of over your age and your husband's age. That means half is probably under. What are you learning? And you know, I'm particularly interested because of your context right across the river from New York. What are you learning about the next generation and what connects with them in preaching?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yes.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And how is that different from older generation?

[Faith Urie Cho]

They're hungry for an experience more than information.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right.

[Faith Urie Cho]

I would say, you know, I think preaching 20 years ago, you just say the truth and that seemed to be enough. But now you could say the truth and you could say it really well. And that may not move the needle as much. Or at least in my context. Right. Not a lot of people get shocked in my context, especially if you work in New York City and you live in New Jersey, life is big. The world is big. And so for you to just kind of lay things out and expect people to be moved by just information alone, it's a tall order because I think what they want is to know Jesus in their hearts. They want an experiential knowledge.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So what does that look like when you're planning a service and planning a sermon?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, we have to make room for Holy Spirit to move and for there to be possibilities for encounter.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So what does that look like?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Making space during prayer, Having moments even after service where we give people the opportunity to linger, to respond in their own way. And, you know, and this is not how it works in every place in America, but at least in my context, people don't like being pressured. So if we said you have to come up to the altar for this, and that's the only you Know, that's what faith looks like. Oh. People that work in New York and live right. 15 minutes away from it, like, they'll be like, okay, no, yeah, yeah, right, right. They'll tell you what you say. Right. You know, people fight for their own lane, you know, and so allowing a gentle freedom, you could respond this way. You could respond by coming up. You could respond by coming up and not having someone pray for you, or you could actually come up and actually ask someone to pray for you. You could stay in your seats. But whatever it is, the point is, give God an opportunity to respond to you and have a posture to listen. I think teaching people to expect something from Jesus is huge.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So you're three years in from launch. Now you're running how many people typically on a Sunday?

[Faith Urie Cho]

It really depends on the season. Right. Our lowest seasons, and I don't know if this helps, but I did hear it's a growing trend. Our lowest season is the fall. Yeah. Because people used to think that the lowest seasons are the summer. But actually, I mean, like I said, depends on your region. But because sports culture is huge, and extracurriculars, oh, my goodness, it's huge. And especially if you do have young families. I mean, September, October, and it's kind of, you know, we joke. I mean, not facetiously, but just to cope sometimes. But sometimes, you know, it's like by mid September, you're like, okay, see you in Thanksgiving. You know what I mean? We don't want it to be that way, but it is for many families. But so it really depends on the season. But I would say we range anywhere from 80 to 120.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. Which is like, a lot of people listening right now can relate to that. And congratulations. I mean, the fact that you're even alive as a church is miraculous, you know, after everything you went through in the first two years. But that's great. How are you connecting people in community? Because that's a really interesting size because you can almost know everybody in the room. Not quite, but I'm sure you do. You and your husband look out, you know the names of almost everybody there. And people can get connected in a large group, but they probably need to move beyond that. What are you learning about community and how people want to connect these days?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Absolutely. That's a great question. And we have a completely multi ethnic, multicultural, multi generational church. So finding common ground and uniting people is a different kind of challenge, you know, because if you have a monocultural demographic, oh, you could bond in so many different ways, you know, and outreach is so.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And you come from that background.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yes, Right. You know, and outreach is almost simple because there's a lot of things that you could use to draw people. But if you have some 60 something year old latino American immigrant and you have a Caucasian male that's in his late 20s, you know, and like you're trying to like bring all that together and you got a college girl and then you have a grandmother, you know, it's like, how do you outreach? You know, how do you. Cause a simple thing like coffee vision night is. It's not gonna draw, you know, because you need to have a certain demographic, I think, or a certain culture in your demographic that could draw people to a vision night in a cafe or a bowling night. Right. And so I think, to be honest, the greatest unifying factor would be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And not to oversimplify it, and like I said, some people may not like that answer because it's not a neat formula. Right. And it's not a strategy that you could just be like, okay, I'll do that. But let me tell you more than a small group plan or an event or anything. And we've done all those. Right. The greatest unifying and melding thing that we've ever seen was when Holy Spirit would move in the room and everybody will be captured by his presence and we will all experience something that is similar. And when we come out into the lobby, all of a sudden everybody has something to talk about.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How do you.

I mean, you can prepare your heart for that, you can pray for it, you can leave space in the service for it. And I think the opposite of that is the tightly programmed to the second service that a lot of us do. What else can you do if you want those kind of encounters to prepare the ground?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, I would say have a prepared prayer team, you know, train your prayer team to till the soil a bit, you know, because, oh, I know what it's like to have dry and tough soil. I mean, the Northeast, you know, the Saint Texas, you know. You know, and I think it's easy for the spiritual climate of your region to determine your expectation. And I think it's important to let Jesus determine your expectation. And how to do that is also prepare the prayer team in a lot of ways. You know, what are we pressing for, what are we pressing towards? What are we praying into? Right. And I think a lot of times if a prayer team is just response oriented, you know, like, here's a problem, so let's respond to it. Here's a, you know, here's a need, so let's respond to it. That's good. You should do that. But I think also praying in faith, like, what are we believing towards? And really tilling the soil of your region with immense amount of prayer and also having that prayer team be the type that could also pray for other people. You know, that is such a unifying moment when people just pray together. Right. And I've seen people of different generations, different backgrounds, even different languages come together and really feel like family when we're praying together. And when you have the right kind of prayer team that's prepared to do that. Well, and knowing how to do that in your context, because how you do that in the Northeast will be kind of different than how you do that in other places. Where.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How do you do that in the Northeast?

[Faith Urie Cho]

I would say it's a little bit more respectful in the sense. Now, I'm not saying other regions are not respectful.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's not like, hey, honey, come over here for prayer. It's not that kind of like, we assume you want it. Is that what you're saying?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Kind of.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Faith Urie Cho]

And also, don't just grab them.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right.

[Faith Urie Cho]

You know, and I think in a lot of church cultures, that's normal. And that's also like, okay, you know, you just put your hand on them.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And, you know, New Yorkers are like, oof.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah. You have to ask permission before you touch somebody. And I think before people are like, oh, no, just go by faith. I think just honoring your region and honoring the culture.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So it's what I talk about with Tim Keller's team. You got to exegete. And with Tim.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yes.

[Carrie Newhoff]

When he was alive, you know, you have to exegete the culture as much as you exegete the text. And it sounds like you've been doing that.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yes. All trying our best.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

Yeah. Faith.

I want to go back a little bit. I think it's a really big subject on mental health and preaching in church leadership. What else are you learning about? And feel free to take it beyond preaching and to look at just church leadership. Church leadership is hard. There's a reason a lot of people who start in ministry don't finish in ministry, that people just say, this is too difficult. I'm gonna go. What else are you learning about mental health and preaching, church leadership?

[Faith Urie Cho]

I think our relationship with pain. I don't like pain. I don't know about you. I really don't like pain.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I tend to run away from it a lot at every opportunity, but it keeps Chasing me.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah, yeah. No, I feel you. Hardcore.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's here for the long run.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah. And I think reconciling with it, you know, I think when I think of pain, and if I see any prospect for it, oh, my goodness, Carrie. I'd avoid it like the plague. And it makes me antsy. It makes me, you know, oh, my goodness, creepy crawlies all around. But also seeing it as a tool, you know, and how we relate to pain and realizing it could also be a friend that ushers you into a revelation that you may have never experienced before, that you've never known before. Not to say that we keep pain around if it was unnecessary, hey, pain can go. Let it go. Right? But. But if God's not lifting the pain, then he wants the spirit of comfort to reside with you along with it. And I think if the purpose of your life is to know Jesus intimately, authentically, and passionately, and I say this all the time, then every season will have a gift. Every season will have a blessing. So, for example, if the purpose of my life is to know Jesus in that way, and I'm in a season of illness, then I will know the God who heals, the healer. If I'm in a season of pain, I will know the comforter. So if my mission in life, my purpose to breathe is to know Jesus, then I could call every season successful, even your season of failure. You will know his grace more than others who've never failed in the way that you have failed. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What are you learning about speaking? Because you speak beyond your church nationally and beyond about being a woman. Speaking in places where women maybe haven't traditionally been welcomed because you're in identify with a lot of people watching this.

[Faith Urie Cho]

And listening to this.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What are you learning about that in this season?

[Faith Urie Cho]

About being a woman.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, being a woman and preaching where maybe not everybody's happy that you have the microphone today.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

All right. We fired you up.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would say when you get up on that pulpit, you may feel the expectation lower and even the hunger of the room lower simply because they don't recognize your name and your face is not familiar and because the tone of your voice is higher. But even still, just knowing that everything that you need to be obedient to the Lord and to be faithful, you have. And so just knowing that I have everything I need in that moment to do what I have to do, I think is what keeps me going, you know? And also what I see a lot of women that are doing the Same exact things that I'm doing, keeping them going as well. Not allowing those external factors to change our view of our calling, our identity, and even just our perspective of what God thinks of us.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Are there specific things you would say or do, either in the green room or setting things up or connecting with people or on stage that would help bridge that gap, which unfortunately still exists?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Well, you know, I would say if it's not just anointing, because I feel like every preacher should lean and desire that the anointing of the Holy Spirit, then there are just, like the basics of charisma, you know, and when I say charisma, I don't mean like the charismatic. I mean like the just humility, you know, and honestly, sometimes humor.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. You know, make everybody laugh. Yeah.

[Faith Urie Cho]

It's just. I mean, these are common grounds. Right. And I go in and I'm not trying to prove myself, strangely enough. I know I'm a preacher, but I also know that the Great Commission isn't go and be heard and seen, you know, so my job is not for them to understand me in the sense of me. They should understand what I say, but not me as a person. My job is not for them to like me or understand me, but what I can do is humble myself. And so even just going in and even knowing that they're not expecting much, still going in, servant like, anyways, you know, serving them anyways, loving them anyways, being happy to be there and making sure that they know it, that I'm happy to be there anyways, you know, so making sure to demonstrate a courteousness and a grace and hopefully a humility and just also humor, like, we all could laugh, you know? Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. When you think about being an Asian American as well, what are some of the blind spots you think the wider culture, Caucasian culture have to the contribution that Asian Americans are making to the church, to culture, et cetera. What are some blind spots that those of us who are not Asian American should be aware of?

[Faith Urie Cho]

I would say, and this could go not just for Caucasians, but for everybody that I think sometimes we could misconstrue this idea that our bubble is the only bubble, that we are at the center of what God is doing, and that how we do it is the way God does it alone, you know, that he. That's the only way that he does.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It to Reverend Evangelical megachurch. That's God's preferred style.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Right, right, right. You know, and I think just knowing there are different ways to do things and there's also different perspectives and if we want the best picture, the clearest picture of the gospel and of God, then we would want everyone's perspective of who God is and how he functions. And so I think even just having a greater curiosity and perhaps even a greater hunger too, to learn from people that are just different than you are, may even have an accent, may even have names that you do not recognize. And I think just being just as hungry to hear from them as you may be from your favorite preacher or your favorite ministry.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. So you're juggling a lot right now. You're an author, you're a speaker, not just in your church, but around the world. You do interviews like this. You're on TV, you got a lot going on.

And you have four kids.

[Faith Urie Cho]

I do.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What's the age range?

[Faith Urie Cho]

They are 8, 10, 11 and 13.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, exactly. You're in the thick of it.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What do boundaries look like for you these days?

[Faith Urie Cho]

I just think about one thing at a time, and that's the only way I could function. And so when people ask, how do you handle it all? My answer is I don't. I just handle one thing at a time. Either I'm just working on my book, or I'm just doing Stradoffs for the church, or I am just focusing on leadership coaching, or I'm just with my kids. And when I'm with my kids, I'm not sermon prepping, I'm not doing other things, I'm with my kids. And so trying to do one thing at a time is helpful. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What message? Of all the messages you send through your writing, through your speaking, through your preaching, what message seems to be resonating the most?

[Faith Urie Cho]

That God is with you. You know, And I think we know that cerebrally, but experientially, I believe a lot of believers have a difficult time with that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, we do.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Why do you, why is that a message that resonates with you personally?

[Faith Urie Cho]

I think because I've always been fascinated by the mystical aspects of his presence. And I think people relegate that conversation to either old time scholars or to a certain stream of church.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, yeah.

[Faith Urie Cho]

But you can't discount the mystical elements of his presence, meaning there are gonna be things that you don't fully understand. And I think as somebody that did struggle with mental health at an early age, so I did struggle to feel God, which is hard to admit if you came from the Pentecostal Church, you know, and so I have been on this lifelong journey since, I mean, actually even before I was a Christian. The way I started was not by my parents taking me to church, because my parents were not Christian, but it was when I was five years old. And I would just like, whisper into the air, God, if you're out there, can you show yourself to me? You know? And I just was trying to figure out, like, are you. Like, who are you? Are you in the clouds? Like, can you show up? And then I remember on a family trip, I saw a gospel film on the television. I asked my mom, who is that man? And she said, that's Jesus. And I said, that looks like a very nice man. And it was the first time I figured out God's name. And we almost died later that day.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Our car flipped over twice in the Nevada desert, you know, And I think there was just something about me figuring out God's name that just shook the enemy, you know. And so from then afterwards, I went to the library and asked the librarian, do you have any books on Jesus? And she said, girl, you gotta go to church. And so I asked my mom to drop me off at church. So I've been just trying to figure out who is God and. And what is his personality, like, what's his heart? Does he like me? Like, what is he thinking? And I think this has just been my lifelong pursuit. And, you know, when I did become saved, my question was, well, what is he thinking when I don't feel him? When I'm not feeling the quote, unquote, fire of the Holy Spirit. And so I think, yeah, that's been a near and dear message. And I think a lot of Christians, they feel the same, like, where is God? When I lost my child, where is God at that diagnosis, where is God? When the church that I've been at for 30 years failed me and broke apart, where is God? And all of that. And to know, wait, no, he is with me. And just because I don't feel him does not negate who he is.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, I think that explains your book, Experiencing Friendship with God. What is one of the blockers to experiencing friendship with God? And I'm asking that not just as a general question, but I'm also very cerebral, as you can tell. You know, trained as a lawyer, I have that disposition. I'm very intellectual. If you ask me what I'm feeling, I'll tell you what I'm thinking, that kind of thing. And even in my devotions today, they're done. But, like, is it a box checked or did I really experience friendship with God? I ask myself that question on a regular basis. So what are some of the common blocks to experiencing friendship with God, I.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Would say overcomplicating it. You know, I think when we think it's just this grand thing. So if you got the book, you would know because it's so small.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Faith Urie Cho]

It's a thin book. And to be honest, it's actually what drew me to Brother Lawrence's book, the Practice of the Presence of God. It was so tiny and small, and I was thinking, okay, it's. He seemed to have unlocked the key, the code to having this real relationship with God. And yet it was so simple. He's like, I'm just peeling potatoes with God. Like, it was so simple. And I think when people over complicate it, when they need to have a ritual for it, rituals are great. And when they need to go somewhere for it, I mean, going somewhere is great. When they need to hear a certain kind of preacher for it. I mean, those preachers are wonderful. But knowing that it's actually the blood of Jesus alone that gives you access to his presence. And so knowing if you cannot go find holy ground, holy ground is wherever you are with the Holy Spirit. Right. And so knowing that it's really as simple as acknowledging Jesus. That's it. So even now, as I'm speaking with you, Carrie, I'm just acknowledging Holy Spirit, and I could feel his presence even now, you know, and so acknowledging him in all your ways. And so it's. And when people think, oh, that's it, I go, yeah, that's actually really it. You know, when you acknowledge him as you're. As you're commuting to work, acknowledging him, as you're walking your dog, acknowledging him, then you develop this awareness that goes beyond a cerebral knowledge and starts to become an emotional understanding and even a physical awareness of his presence.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I feel like you and Mark Batterson must be distant, distant relatives. I feel like I'm picking up some Mark vibes in that. So the book's available everywhere?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Yes.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right. And where can people find you online?

[Faith Urie Cho]

Well, my Instagram is Faithy Cho. My website is faithuricho.com.

[Carrie Newhoff]

There you go. Very available URL.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Absolutely.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Like Carrie Newhoff. Not a lot of them.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Right, Right. Totally. Yeah. And I'm accessible there. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Awesome Faith. Thank you.

[Faith Urie Cho]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, that was a time where I don't remember 700 and almost 60 episodes in, where we really covered mental health like that from somebody who's in it, struggles with it. So thank you for being so transparent with that. Really appreciate that faith and if you want more, you can get the show notes@carrie newhoff.com shownotes that'll give you a couple of prompts to sign up for a free membership in the Art of Leadership Academy. That's where the best conversations are happening. I'm in there regularly. And if you, along with 10,000 plus other leaders, are ready to go from the crowd to the community, now's your.

Chance to do that. Just click the link in this episode. It'll take you right there. So next episode, yeah, it's a little.

Bit about mental health, too. And I interview Judah Smith and Dr. Les Parrott and we talk about why your brain is lying to you 80% of your time. Do you still struggle with, like, negative thoughts? I do. Apparently.

You're not alone.

We're going to talk about that and.

How to get out of that trap.

And a whole lot more.

Also coming up on the podcast, Tom.

Raynor, Tim Stevens, Bobby Gruenwald, Andrew Stanley.

So glad to have him back.

Dr. Carolyn Leaf, J.D. greer, and a whole lot more.

Thank you so much for listening. And hey, if this episode meant something.

To you, could you leave a rating or comment wherever you're listening? And don't forget to share it with.

A friend, maybe send to your team.

Whatever you want to do. And I hope our conversation today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.