The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast

Episode CNLP 761: The Hardest Assignment in Ministry—Tim Stevens on Willow Creek, Firing Well, and Finding Momentum

Release Date: October 21, 2025
Guest: Tim Stevens
Host: Carey Nieuwhof

Overview

In this candid and insightful episode, Carey Nieuwhof sits down with Tim Stevens, a seasoned executive pastor and consultant with forty years in ministry, to explore the “hardest assignment in ministry”—helping navigate Willow Creek through its post-crisis reset. The conversation covers radical organizational change, firing with care and clarity, the delicate nature of momentum, spotting and developing talent, and personal lessons from Tim’s four decades in church leadership. Leaders from any context—church or business—will find practical insights on culture, staff transitions, vulnerability, and resilience.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Four Decades of Ministry—What Changed?

[03:38]–[09:02]

• Church complexity has grown dramatically; models like the “bus ministry” of the '70s are obsolete due to societal and demographic shifts.
• Emergence of roles (e.g., Executive Pastor) and multi-site churches signals greater organizational needs.
• Tim Stevens:

  “Complexity… growing large churches didn’t have multiple locations, now that’s standard. Online ministry, discipleship—how do you disciple people who show up once every 4–6 weeks?” [05:22]

• The role of the Executive Pastor has evolved, focused on aligning “people, strategy, resources, and culture so the vision actually happens.” [09:02]

2. Second-Chair Leadership and Contentment

[11:28]–[15:23]

• Tim never aspired to be a lead pastor; found his calling in enabling visionaries.
• Stressed the importance of personal satisfaction and calling for second-chair leaders.
• Tim Stevens:

  “I love to come alongside a visionary leader…he didn’t want to do what I was doing, and I didn’t want to do what he was doing. And together we could make it work. We had total trust in each other, and it just was magic.” [12:15]

• Warns against unacknowledged ambition in the executive role—it can turn toxic if not addressed.

3. The “Hardest Assignment”: Rebuilding Willow Creek

[19:24]–[29:54]

• Tim’s case study: Arrived at Willow Creek in the wake of a severe leadership crisis, financial challenges, and COVID shutdowns.
• Faced immense distrust and demoralization among long-time staff.
• Tim Stevens:

  “A guy who’d been on staff over 40 years…said, ‘Tim, you just need to know I don’t trust you, and I don’t think I’ll ever trust any leader again.’” [01:15]

• Initial plan: Gain trust before enacting change, but COVID and finances forced immediate restructuring.
• Right-sizing staff and shifting multi-site models was urgent; “had to start right away without the trust having been earned, which was significantly challenging. I wouldn’t recommend it for anyone, but it was a kind of have to.” [23:03]
• Took about a year to rebuild the staff and focus on health.

4. Processing Stress and Loss in Leadership

[25:15]–[29:54]

• Tim handled extreme pressure (public criticism, financial peril) by maintaining a “temporary assignment” mindset.
• Sought therapy, relied on external support systems, and worked to detach identity from role.
• Emphasized grieving losses: “There was probably 18 months…we’re doing everything we think are the right things and we’re not seeing one bit of progress yet…eventually, it’s starting to work in pockets.” [27:43]

5. Vulnerability and Isolation in Ministry

[34:27]–[39:01]

• Many church leaders struggle to show vulnerability—fear of judgment from congregations or staff.
• Pastors rarely join small groups because “they don’t feel like they can.”
• Around private gatherings (like fire pits), leaders finally share “real” struggles—family, exhaustion, imposter syndrome.
• Carey Nieuwhof:

  “Some are sitting there like a corked bottle and the pressure’s building and they don’t know when they’re going to blow.” [37:14]

• Tim’s practical advice: Build support outside your team; deep friendships and external mentors are vital.

6. Family and Ministry

[40:09]–[42:09]

• Marriage and family dynamics shift dramatically with new ministry roles and contexts (e.g., moving from church staff to consulting).
• Open conversations with adult children shed light on ministry’s impact.

7. 40 Lessons in 40 Years—Key Nuggets

[42:09]–[70:08]

Conflict

• “Conflict isn’t the enemy. Avoidance is.”
  Most leaders avoid conflict out of a desire to be gracious, but it usually prolongs issues and frays culture.

  “We spend so much sideways energy dealing with someone we shouldn’t have hired or we should have dealt with a long time ago.” [17:51]

Staff Transitions—Firing Well

• Hire slowly, fire kindly, always with clarity.
• Layoffs during crisis (e.g., Willow) are easier to explain, but when performance/culture are reasons, clarity and dignity matter.
• Tim’s advice:

  “That person needs to know where they weren’t measuring up. It’s going to follow them the rest of their life if they don’t know.” [45:46]

• Public communication:
  Less is more. Only acknowledge publicly if the individual had a highly visible role. “Part of leadership is being misunderstood. I’m just going to take some bullets right now for a little while and then wisdom is proved right down the road…” [49:34]

Hiring

• The biggest mistake: Hiring for skill over culture fit.
  “Don’t hire people and then bring them in and teach them your values. Hire people who already live out your values and reinforce them.” [52:33]
• “Easy hang” test: Would you want to travel, spend long hours, and ‘do life’ with this person?

Momentum

• “Momentum is fragile.” It’s easy to attribute momentum to strategy but many factors are invisible.
• You need the right people, outside perspectives, and must continuously adapt.

Spiritual Health

• The “frenetic drivenness” of a charismatic but unhealthy leader can appear fruitful but breed toxicity.
• True health prioritizes family and spiritual formation—not just measurable growth.

Believe the Best

• The most important lesson: “Deciding to believe the best about other people…that is not natural.”

• “I realize when you believe the best, it is going to bite you every now and then… But I’d much rather get it wrong by believing the best than get it wrong by constantly just believing the worst.” [65:47]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• [01:15] (Tim Stevens): “It’s the only place I’ve ever gone where people weren’t excited that you were there…they were so broken and so mistrusting of leadership.”
• [13:10] (Tim Stevens): “If ultimately they want to be in the first chair, that can become unknowingly toxic.”
• [19:42] (Tim Stevens): “Easiest answer: the toughest assignment was jumping into Willow in 2020…hardest thing I’ve ever done.”
• [27:43] (Tim Stevens): “I was probably too emotionally detached in that moment to feel the sting of it…but had to work through it.”
• [42:54] (Tim Stevens): “Most of us…avoid conflict. Because you feel like it’s ungraceful…But avoidance is the enemy.”
• [47:18] (Tim Stevens): “Fire kindly, with clarity. That person needs to know where they weren’t measuring up.”
• [52:33] (Tim Stevens quoting Jerry Hurley): “Don’t hire people and then bring them in and teach them your values. Hire people who already live out your values.”
• [56:48] (Carey Nieuwhof): “Is this person an easy hang? Is this someone you want to be on a long trip with?”
• [65:47] (Tim Stevens): “I’d much rather get it wrong by believing the best than get it wrong by constantly just believing the worst.”

Important Timestamps

• [03:38] – How church ministry and leadership have evolved over 40 years
• [11:28] – Being content in the second chair and pitfalls to avoid
• [19:24] – The toughest leadership assignment: taking on Willow Creek post-crisis
• [25:15] – Coping with stress and avoiding identity fusion with work
• [34:27] – The hidden conversations pastors have about vulnerability
• [42:09] – 40 Lessons in 40 Years: conflict, firing well, momentum
• [52:33] – Hiring for culture, not just competency
• [60:01] – The fragility of momentum; how to regain it
• [65:47] – The most important lesson: believe the best about people

Additional Resources & References

• Leading Smart: Tim Stevens’ consulting and resource platform for church leaders (leadingsmart.com/carey).
• 40 Lessons in 40 Years: Tim’s resource for wisdom nuggets from decades in ministry.
• Art of Leadership Academy: Carey’s resource and peer learning community for leaders.

Episode Tone

The conversation is authentic, practical, sometimes somber but full of hope—and laced with dry humor; both host and guest aren’t afraid to acknowledge hardship, discuss pain points honestly, or offer grace in the face of church dysfunction.

For Listeners

This episode is a must for any leader facing institutional fatigue, crisis recovery, staff transitions, or discouragement. Tim’s wisdom teaches that healthy organizational change always begins with humility, hard conversations, and a steady belief in the possibility of restoration.