Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
Episode: CNLP 764 | Why Christians Can't Trust ChatGPT: Bobby Gruenewald on Scripture and YouVersion’s Rise to 1 Billion Installs
Date: November 4, 2025
Host: Carey Nieuwhof
Guest: Bobby Gruenewald (Founder and CEO, YouVersion; Pastor at Life Church)

Episode Overview

This episode is both a deep dive into YouVersion’s remarkable journey to 1 billion global installs and a candid discussion on the pitfalls and promise of AI—especially large language models like ChatGPT—in Christian ministry contexts. Bobby Gruenewald shares leadership lessons learned through seasons of slow growth, innovation through technical and organizational shifts, and his firsthand concerns about the reliability and safety of AI in handling Scripture and sensitive pastoral topics.

Table of Contents

1. Milestone: YouVersion’s 1 Billion Installs
2. Leadership Lessons from Stalled Momentum
3. Vision, Scale, and Risk in Ministry
4. AI & The Church: Hype, Hope, and Hazards
5. Notable Quotes
6. Key Timestamps for Major Segments

1. Milestone: YouVersion’s 1 Billion Installs

The Celebration and Its Significance

• [02:18] Bobby announces that in November, YouVersion has crossed 1 billion installs, covering the Bible app, Bible App Lite, and Bible App for Kids.
• Bobby sees this as “a milestone worth celebrating," not merely for the platform but as “evidence that God’s Word is alive and thriving and growing and that there’s real hunger for it globally.”

Accelerating Adoption

• Installs doubled from 500 million (2021) to 1 billion in just four years, compared to 13 years to reach the first 500 million.
• Growth had plateaued, but shifts in leadership focus and new strategies reignited momentum.
• [05:10] “There’s a generational momentum... the Bible’s a key part of it, and we’re super excited to be able to serve in the way that we serve right now.”

2. Leadership Lessons from Stalled Momentum

Facing & Diagnosing the Plateau

• [06:13] 2021: Bobby felt stalled growth and personally questioned his stewardship of the mission, comparing YouVersion’s investment strategy to that of a hypothetical for-profit company.
• Realized he was under-resourcing YouVersion relative to its potential.

The Hard Choice of Focus

• Understood he could not lead a multi-billion dollar movement part-time; committed to becoming CEO and restructuring his own priorities at Life Church.
• [09:32] “My initial inclination… was that I needed to hire a CEO, not be the CEO… But after talking to mentors... The feedback was… ‘Well, you need to be the CEO.’”

Team-Building & Discernment

• 2022 was turbulent; he left critical leadership positions open rather than fill them with the wrong people, waiting for a clear “yes” via prayer and discernment.
• Key hires eventually materialized in an unexpected, providential way.
• [22:49] “It almost felt a little bit too good to be true… like an answer to prayer and when the answer comes, you’re standing there going, but what if it falls apart?”

3. Vision, Scale, and Risk in Ministry

Resetting Vision Beyond Success

• Bobby warns against comfort and “celebrating the size of your church and all that’s been accomplished” without setting a new, much larger vision.
• Shoe-shifts the organizational goal from 1 billion to 3 billion installs by 2033 (the 2000th anniversary of the resurrection), to ensure vision always exceeds present reality.
• [28:49] “We try to move and every year… cast to 2034 and 2035… I want to just keep a vision that’s in front of us that’s way bigger than what we’ve experienced.”

Reigniting Agility & Entrepreneurial Spirit

• Recultivated a risk-taking culture, encouraging speed, experimentation, and learning from failure.
• “There’s just an inherent risk aversion that comes in. The bigger you get, the more you have to lose.” ([29:46])

Technical Innovations: The Bible App Lite

• In response to unethical competitors and underserved regions, they launched Bible App Lite—a lighter, faster, ad-free app for low-capability smartphones, particularly in the developing world.
• “There are things [bad actors] were doing that were reaching people we weren’t... So we could basically launch a product that competes against the bad actor in this, and we can do it without any ads because our business model doesn’t require ads.” ([33:41])

4. AI & The Church: Hype, Hope, and Hazards

Promise: Speed & Creativity

• AI (especially LLMs) is a great tool for:
  • Editing & summarizing text
  • Coding assistance and code review
  • Sparking creative variations and ideas
  • Automating workflows and content creation (with caution)

The Dangers of AI in Ministry

• Misquoting Scripture: Major language models often cite Scripture inaccurately—even when told to quote exactly.

  • Best models get ~85% right; some much less. To translators, even punctuation matters.
  • [52:38] “Those models are not effective at accurately... quoting Bible verses... Everything to a Bible translator is major... the word choices are intentional.”

• False Authority & Community Safety:

  • AI can provide egregious, unsafe responses—even when “prompted” to be Christian or pastoral.
  • [56:25] Gruenewald tested a Christian chatbot with a scenario of a 14-year-old seeking sex advice. The bot ultimately provided detailed instructions laced with misquoted Scripture: “I know the people behind that particular one and... that was horrifying... this was very easy and very common and I did it multiple times... on multiple ones.”
  • “It’s actually worse to have [bad advice] come from a trusted source, from a church, from a ministry.”

• Engineering Naiveté:

  • Many ministries assume they’ve “programmed truth” into their AI, but the models are non-deterministic and cannot be boxed in by simple prompt-engineering.
  • “I think the standard that we have as a church... there’s not enough rigor out there... especially when it’s an open-ended chat.” ([55:12])

• Hallucinations & Misleading Confidence:

  • Even stripped of overt hallucinations, LLMs frequently output factually incorrect information, sometimes with fabricated citations and confidence.
  • “I asked ChatGPT what my wife’s name was... it got that, but then my kids’ names—I have none of those kids. On another question, it gave a dangerously wrong answer about tire pressure for pilots.” ([62:10])

Discernment, Not FOMO

• FOMO is driving questionable AI adoption in churches. Gruenewald cautions against deploying tools you don’t fully understand or cannot guarantee the safety and accuracy of.
• “FOMO shouldn’t ever cause us to adopt technology that we actually don’t understand how it works, and we don’t understand if it works or we know it doesn’t work.”

Why “Verified Human Content” Might Rise in Value

• Gruenewald notes that as AI-generated content floods the web, “human-generated” and authenticated content—including carefully preserved Scripture—become more valuable and trusted.
• “The Bible, in many ways, this is its moment... It’s the antidote to the problem.”

YouVersion’s Own Standards

• YouVersion uses AI for backend improvements (like search), but not for generating Bible quotes or open-ended pastoral conversations.
• “Our standard is 100% like Scripture will always be 100% accurate and true to the translation... Even if there’s some kind of AI in use... Scripture is never misquoted.” ([72:25])

5. Notable Quotes

• “I was a reluctant CEO, and I did take on that title, but it was mostly because I needed to signify that something had changed... and that we had changed.” – Bobby Gruenewald ([09:32])
• “If you did nothing else and just went to heaven and said, 100 million people I helped connect to Scripture, man. That—well done. That’s enough. And I remember just thinking, I’m not done.” – Bobby Gruenewald ([43:39])
• “If you’re inviting people to talk about moral issues and questions in life, you’re basically creating an invitation to talk about the conversations that I’m talking about, and it’s really hard to know for certain the output’s going to be what it’s going to be.” – Bobby Gruenewald ([57:11])
• “The only thing worse than having [OpenAI] answer questions about morality is having the Bible do the same thing using the same flawed technology. It’s actually worse to have it come from a trusted source.” – Bobby Gruenewald ([59:55])
• “We’ve become so trusting of technology... This new wave of technology isn’t bad, in my opinion, inherently bad. We have to be more discerning with how we use it.” – Bobby Gruenewald ([74:22])
• “God can even use these things that can seem a bit confusing and seem a bit concerning as an opportunity to draw people closer to him. That’s what we’re witnessing...” – Bobby Gruenewald ([77:56])

6. Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening/YouVersion Milestone: [02:18] – [04:38]
• Growth Plateau & Leadership Shift: [06:13] – [11:09]
• Team Building & Discernment: [11:09] – [23:14]
• Reigniting Vision & Risk: [25:55] – [30:52]
• Technical Innovations (Bible App Lite): [31:13] – [34:55]
• Vision Beyond Success: [37:32] – [44:32]
• Discussion Shifts to AI: [44:32] – [45:49]
• AI Use Cases & Pitfalls: [46:01] – [66:32]
• Human vs. AI-Generated Content: [67:24] – [72:22]
• Closing Remarks & Encouragement: [73:03] – [78:22]

Episode Takeaways

• Leading at Scale Requires New Levels of Focus, Vision, and Risk
  Bobby’s journey illustrates how catalytic leadership shifts demand hard introspection, a willingness to say “no,” and a relentless, future-oriented vision.

• Discernment Is Crucial in the Face of New Technology
  When it comes to AI and Christian ministry, “good enough” isn’t good enough—especially regarding Scripture, where accuracy and trust are paramount.

• FOMO Is a Dangerous Motivator for Church Tech Adoption
  Ministries should adopt technology only when they understand its limitations and can ensure it serves, rather than undermines, their mission.

• The Bible’s Unique Transmission Offers Unparalleled Trust
  In an era of dubious, generated content, the faithful, careful transmission of Scripture stands apart—and the need for genuine, authoritative biblical engagement is only growing.

To explore more, download YouVersion or visit globalbiblemonth.com for November’s celebration.