CNLP 767 | Solving the Mental Health Emergency: Shaunti Feldhahn & James Sells on a Better Approach to Pastoral Care

Podcast: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast

Host: Carey Nieuwhof
Guests: Shaunti Feldhahn (social researcher, bestselling author), Dr. James Sells (professor of psychology & counseling, Regent University)
Date: November 18, 2025

Episode Overview

Theme:
This episode dives deep into the mental health emergency facing churches and pastors. Carey, Shaunti, and Dr. Sells discuss the unsustainable pressures on pastoral care, the limitations of current referral-based approaches, and introduce a scalable, church-empowered model to support mental health that leverages lay listeners and trained community members. The goal is to help pastors and churches provide effective, caring, and relational support without being overwhelmed.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Weight on Pastors

• Pastors face constant, often invisible, emotional and logistical weight from congregational needs.
• Most parishioners underestimate the volume and intensity of support pastors are expected to give.
  Quote:
  “I just don’t think the average parishioner recognizes the weight... so much emotional stuff that every pastor has to juggle.”
  — Shaunti Feldhahn [03:22]

2. The Nature of the Mental Health Crisis

• Churches are overwhelmed by mental health demands—waitlists, unaffordable care, and insufficient professional resources.

• “Punt” is the default strategy: referring cases away to professional clinicians, but this leaves a relational gap and creates a ministry funnel out of the church.
  Quote:
  "It’s out of our capacity... so now without realizing, we jettison a large portion of ministry to go outside the church for care."
  — Dr. James Sells [07:50]

• Contradiction: 88% of surveyed pastors said their role is to refer out, yet 96% say the best way to promote mental health is through community.
  Quote:
  “We are creating a funnel out of the church... but the best way of creating great mental health is having a community of believers walking alongside one another.”
  — Shaunti Feldhahn [10:00]

3. The Scale of the Problem

• Nearly 60 million adults in the US have diagnosed mental illness; only half access help.
• Even with funding, there aren't enough clinicians.
  Quote:
  "Really, it's around 1 to 10,000—the folks seeking services and the folks available to provide services."
  — Dr. James Sells [12:07]

4. Technology & AI in Mental Health

• AI and chatbots (like ChatGPT) are being used for “companionship” and therapy, especially by young people.
• Real relational connection cannot be replaced by digital interactions.
  Quote:
  "When I asked for a puppy... they got me a stuffed animal. I told my mom at age 3, I want a heart that beats."
  — Dr. James Sells [18:29]
  “All that’s gonna happen if you’re getting into that space thinking of that entity [AI] as like, a therapist or friend, you’re gonna be more lonely in the end because you’re a real person.”
  — Shaunti Feldhahn [24:11]

5. A New Model: The Triangle Approach & Lay Listeners

• Introduction of the “Triangle Model”:

  • Top 5–8%: Acute, complex cases (schizophrenia, bipolar—clinician territory).
  • Middle (~30%): Ongoing recovery (antidepressants, active relapse prevention—semi-specialized).
  • Bottom (60–70%): “Everyone else”—common struggles, general pain, loneliness, marriage issues.

• Training lay listeners (non-professionals) with basic relational, listening, and follow-up skills (in as little as 6 hours of training) to walk alongside others—effectively multiplying the church’s caring capacity.
  Quote:
  “In six hours, we believe we can teach someone the basic skills of listening, how to pray with another, and a very basic problem solving strategy.”
  — Dr. James Sells [35:53]

• Example: A pastor connects someone in need with a trained lay listener who may share similar life experiences, creating instant empathy and support.
  Quote:
  “It was almost like you could visibly see a weight lift off of this pastor’s shoulders... it can be.”
  — Shaunti Feldhahn [28:19]

6. Group Models and Community

• Simple acts like shared meals, small groups, and open-invitation fellowship nights can dramatically address loneliness and pain, even in rural or under-resourced contexts.
  Quote:
  “We’re gonna have a meal, a little bit of teaching, worship, and small group time... now there are 500 people that show up every Friday night.”
  — Shaunti Feldhahn [42:21]

• Relational connection is often a more effective healing agent than professional intervention alone, except in cases of brain dysfunction requiring medication or specialist care.
  Quote:
  “Relationship provides hope, it provides meaning... and that in and of itself has a deep healing quality.”
  — Dr. James Sells [45:33]

7. Integrating Small Groups and Lay Care

• A healthy small group culture alone is not enough if it just refers pain away. Culture must shift to empower listening, empathy, and lay-level care.
• Small group leaders can be trained as lay listeners to spot symptoms vs. issues needing referral.
• The ultimate culture shift: everybody adopts baseline relational skills as part of Christian discipleship.
  Quote:
  “If you are a human being that follows Jesus, you need to be able to share Jesus... You need to be able to be comfortable sitting with another person in pain.”
  — Dr. James Sells [62:34]

8. Implementation & Culture Change

• Key to success: Pastors catalyze, but volunteers or staff lead the effort.

• Customization to each church’s DNA; one size does not fit all.

• Existing small groups integrate lay listening skills; initial points of contact funnel people to broader care networks.

• All resources and training are available at thechurchcares.com
  Quote:
  “The pastor initiates a cultural change. The program capacity is gonna be on the congregation.”
  — Dr. James Sells [80:07]

• Reports: Pastors experience a huge drop in personal burden when lay listening systems are implemented, freeing them to focus on other leadership roles.
  Quote:
  “One thing that they all said... the weight that’s off my shoulders. Because our church is actually doing the things that we always sort of hoped and had a vision for.”
  — Shaunti Feldhahn [79:31]

9. Church Growth & Evangelism Implications

• Mental health ministry is uniquely positioned to become a 21st-century evangelism lever.
• Churches offering this level of human care become magnets for both believers and seekers.
  Quote:
  “Mental health ministry is the evangelism method of the 21st century.”
  — Dr. James Sells (quoting Ed Stetzer) [86:43]

10. Final Words: The Universal Power of Listening

• 100% of issues benefit from caring, relational support, even if not “cured” by it.
  Quote:
  “I think 100% of issues have some need of listening... there is no human condition for whom having one caring person walk alongside... where that wouldn’t be helpful.”
  — Shaunti Feldhahn [87:57]

• The church needs to re-embrace its historic calling as a “network where that actually can happen... with a set of skills that people have to have in order for it to happen.”
  — Dr. James Sells [91:00]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• The “Weight” Pastors Carry:
  “The burden that's on pastor’s shoulders... there’s just an incredible burden placed on the shoulders of that person to carry a congregation.”
  — Dr. James Sells [05:56]

• On AI Therapy:
  “I want a heart that beats.”
  — Dr. James Sells [18:29]

• The Triangle Model Simplified:
  “Nobody gets a pass there. Everybody knows suffering to some degree.”
  — Dr. James Sells [31:36]

• On Pastoral Burnout & Scalability:
  “98% of pastoral care is having someone who cares. It doesn’t have to be the pastor.”
  — Carey Nieuwhof [38:07]

• On Reclaiming Church Community:
  “Everybody wants to open up a door at a tavern and have everyone say, ‘Hi Norm.’...The church can offer something that a mug of beer can’t offer.”
  — Dr. James Sells [66:31]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Pastoral weights and invisible burdens: [03:01–05:56]
• Mental health crisis & unsustainable “punt” strategy: [07:38–10:56]
• The triangle model explained: [30:13–36:49]
• Lay listening training: [35:47–36:49]
• The power of community meals/groups: [41:00–44:50]
• Medication vs. community (hope, universality): [45:07–49:51]
• Rethinking small group culture: [49:51–53:22]
• Implementing a scalable system: [56:00–59:14]
• How it shifts the pastor’s burden: [79:31–80:07]
• Evangelism and drawing seekers: [85:29–87:12]
• Final challenge and pastoral encouragement: [93:23–96:01]

Resources & Action Steps

• Main Resource: thechurchcares.com
  • Free “Kit” available for those interested in starting lay care at their church.
• Book: When Hurting People Come to Church by Shaunti Feldhahn & Dr. James Sells.
• Get involved: Bring the idea to your leadership, volunteer to organize, or simply commit to being present and listening as a member.
• Training: Lay listening programs can be launched with as little as 6 hours of training.
• Cultural Shift: Every member is encouraged to learn the basics of empathy, presence, and relational care—lead by example.

Episode Summary

This conversation lays out a practical, research-backed path forward for churches overwhelmed by mental health challenges. By tapping into the “bottom of the triangle”—ordinary but caring and equipped humans, not just professionals—churches can build a culture of mutual listening, support, and hope. The result is not only healing for individuals but a lighter burden for pastors, a more authentic church community, and a powerful, relevant witness to an anxious age.

This episode offers both a vision and a toolkit for church leaders longing to see mental health recovery not merely outsourced, but planted within the heart of Christ’s community.