← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 770 | Social Outrage: J.D. Greear On Charlie Kirk, When to Speak Out, and Culture Wars
01:06:15
Loading summary
Transcript142 lines
- [00:01]
J.D. Greer
The Art of Leadership Network. And so I'm looking at a congregation full of people, some of whom are like, this is a moment where Jesus is being attacked. And others who were saying, I've got questions. You know, some of this feels different than the messaging I see preached from this church.
- [00:22]
Carrie Newhoff
Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here, and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Today. We have got.
- [00:30]
J.D. Greer
J.D.
- [00:30]
Carrie Newhoff
Greer and I have been so looking forward to this conversation. I think every single pastor is stuck on what to say, how to say it. I mean, we're in the middle of culture wars right now that we never thought we would be in. So when do you speak out? How do you speak out? Why is it so difficult right now? Well, J.D. greer and I go there. We talk about Charlie Kirk, when to speak out, the culture wars, social outrage, and how people are being discipled by the algorithm. I think you're really going to love this episode. Hey, I would love to track with you on, on Instagram. I'm like, chronicling some of our travels. I'm on the road an awful lot. We were at Adam Weber's Embrace Church a couple months ago and we had such a great time in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Shout out to South Dakota. Never been there before. Had a lot of very interesting podcast listeners. I don't want to say a whole lot more. Never know who's listening to the show. It blew me away to see the quality of leaders listening to the show. So you know who you are. Thanks for saying hi. And man, I think this is going to help politicians. I think this episode is going to help pat pastors and business leaders. J.D. greer is the pastor of the Summit Church in Raleigh, Durham, North Carolina. Under JD's leadership, Summit has grown from a plateaued church of 300. A lot of you can relate to that. To one of over 12,000. He has led them into a bold vision to plant 1000 new churches by the year 2050. JD is the author of numerous books I cannot highly recommend enough. His new book, Everyday Revolutionary, it's available everywhere. Books are sold. Now, my conversation with J.D.
- [02:07]
J.D. Greer
Greer.
- [02:08]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, I get a lot of books, J.D. and I gotta tell you, when I saw the subtitle how to Transcend the Culture Wars, I was like, I gotta have this conversation with you. Thank you for writing on this, man.
- [02:19]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, well, no, thank you for having me on. I feel very passionate. I feel like we're at a very, I mean, what's the biblical word? Kairos moment with this Stuff. And I think there's some crucial questions being raised. And I think, without trying to be melodramatic, Gary, I felt like the future of our movement here, our evangelical movement, hinges on how we answer some of these questions.
- [02:40]
Carrie Newhoff
Right, so are you on a suicide mission? Is that what you're attempting to do here, jt? I mean, I have. I tried. Like I said to you when we were getting ready to record, I feel like I come to the culture wars. It's a big iceberg, and I take my little toothpick and like, chip, chip, chip, chip, chip. You've driven like you're right in it. So what?
- [03:00]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, you and I have a different. It's an interesting thing because I come in some. I mean, you come as a Canadian evangelical, which means you share a lot of the same beliefs, but you're just coming at it from, you know, one angle. And here I am, you know, I'm in a. In a Southern state and the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. And so, yes, sir, you know, we're coming at it from two different perspectives. But, yeah, I mean, it should be a good conversation.
- [03:22]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay, so let's start here, because this is, you know, 2025 is a year that, once again, I mean, we did. Well, not round one, but a real round of it in 2020 with COVID and everything that happened during that very pivotal year. And then this year with Charlie Kirk and everything, it was like, what do I say? What do I not say? How do I say it? How do you personally decide what issues you speak out on and which issues you do not?
- [03:52]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, I mean, let's start with the easy part of that answer is, as a preacher of God's word, we're responsible to teach the whole counsel of God, which means if God says it, regardless of its popularity or even its political ramifications, we have to preach it. You know, John the Baptist here, you got a guy that confronts King Herod for a socially acceptable sin, at least among royalty, you know, the relationship he had, but he confronts him, and, you know, King Herod literally cuts off his head. And Jesus does not say, man, John really blew it with his platform. He could have had such influence, but he had to go meddling in secondary issues. No, he. Jesus called him the greatest prophet ever to live. And we're here to rebuke the works of darkness. And that means calling out the idols of our age. And, you know, it's pretty easy to call out the idols of a previous age, you know?
- [04:45]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, but looking back, it's Crystal clear. And they're all dead. So it's super easy, right?
- [04:51]
J.D. Greer
Yeah. Right. Preaching against racism now is one thing. If you're a pastor of a church in Charleston, South Carolina, in 1860, that's a different thing. You know, it's a different level of courage. And I don't want to be guilty of. Of at all, you know, just mincing those words. You know, when it comes to some of the pressing questions, the sanctity of life, you know, how the Bible describes gender and sexuality and marriage and those things. I mean, I want to be. Be very clear on that. At the same time, I recognize that a lot of our political. They end up being what you would think of as the application of Christian wisdom. I refer to them, following the lead of a friend of mine, as dotted line issues. Like, there are some things that you have a direct line between what the Bible says and what the policy is, and there's other things that are more of a dotted line. And, you know, we know that we're commanded to love the poor, but I don't know of a single verse in the Bible that tells us what the ideal marginal tax rate is, what the social safety net's supposed to include, or how many refugees and immigrants are supposed to let into the country. And so those are things that, while I may have an opinion on those, and my Christian worldview may push me one direction, I want to be very careful ever attaching the authority of God or the reputation of the church to something that's not actually written in the Bible. And so I'm always trying to say, okay, is this what I'm saying? Do I have a chapter and verse on this, or is this the application that a Christian could disagree with me on, even if we agreed in the core concept?
- [06:21]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, and we now have the pressure with social media, et cetera. Like in Charlie Kirk is a very good example. No matter what you did, from the pastors I've talked to after that horrible, horrible assassination of Charlie Kirk, you either said too little, too much, you were too right, too left. And people lost huge swaths. I know of some who lost huge swaths of their congregation. Congregation. Because they didn't get it quite right. And whatever they said or didn't say. And it seems to be. And it's almost like somebody said, Jesus didn't rise from the dead. When 20 of your best families just jet out the back door and say, we'll never be back again. I'm just curious when you think about that, because I think that's the pressure that pastors feel is there's something that happens in the news, and sometimes it's not as major as Charlie Kirk. It could be more minor, but, like, if you don't say it and you don't get it right, boom, you're in trouble.
- [07:25]
J.D. Greer
Yeah. And that's a reflection of the kind of the social outrage culture we live in that, you know, I mean, it's just a cancel culture. Right. I mean, if you don't do it the way that I think you should do it, it's kind of ironic that we believers who are so against cancel culture, how quickly we will cancel our church for the slightest.
- [07:41]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, it feels like it's flipped a little bit like. Like that. You know, we are all opposed to cancel culture, and then all of a sudden, we're doing it to each other. Is that fair to say?
- [07:50]
J.D. Greer
I think so. And it just shows another way, where instead of being different than the world, we reflect the world. You know, and maybe that's. I know these sounds like preacher lines, but maybe that's because we get discipled out of the Bible for one hour a week, and we get discipled by cable news and talk shows, you know, for 30 hours a week, and maybe we end up reflecting the world more than we challenge it. But, you know, specifically to your question, you know, with just a horrific thing with Charlie Kirk, you know, social media, the way the algorithms work is it ends up feeding you kind of what you already think and what you. It's. The way it works is it creates this kind of outrage culture, and that generates more clicks. And so I'm realizing that I'm dealing with a congregation of people who are. You know, there are different levels of how aware they are of the news, and they're also at different places and to what they're getting fed with stuff. And so there are people who recognize that, you know, by. It's just pretty clear that there was ideological motivations in that assassination and that there are a lot of believers feeling like they were very attacked. You know, their viewpoint was attacked, and they are coming in scared. Honestly, I hadn't seen that in our church in quite a while, where just there was a sense of mourning and fear because they were like. This was somebody that was. So he was one of the few that would go into these secular progressivist spaces, and you can't think of something more secular progressivist than the college campus and was willing to say things that few people were willing to say. And there was a lot of admiration. Well, at the same time, yet others that what they're getting are these presentations, whether they're out of context or not. I won't even weigh in on that. But just they're seeing what they're seeing. And so they're thinking, like, I don't quite know how to interpret this because for some of them it was like the first time they'd heard about it. And so I'm looking at a congregation full of people, some of whom are like, this is a moment where, where, where, where, where Jesus is being attacked. And others who were saying this. I've got questions. You know, some of this feels different than the messaging I see preach from this church. What I knew we can all do is, you know, I feel like as a pastor, you have to meet people where they are, and sometimes that just means mourning with them, mourning with those who mourn. We all recognize this was a tragedy. It didn't feel like the time that you get in and try to unpack everything and going into the fine minutiae, I mean, just say this was a tragedy this week and we mourn the loss of life, we mourn for their family. I mourn what this does for some of you as you're thinking about how you engage in your kids at college and do that. But I mean, just to be totally transparent, we have the same reaction you just described. I got, you know, literally within, within minutes, you know, I'm getting people saying, hey, why didn't we make more out of this? And others who were saying, you know, why did we? Why did you know? So anyway, it's.
- [10:42]
Carrie Newhoff
So I want to back up and I would love to exegete that case study. It's not a case study. It's a tragedy.
- [10:48]
J.D. Greer
Yeah.
- [10:48]
Carrie Newhoff
At every level. But I, you know, you said something that really clicked with me, and I gotta say, it's a new thought, even though it's kind of obvious. And maybe I'm just the slow kid in the class here, but you're right. When you sit in front of a church of 100 or 10,000, there are 10,000 different Instagrams, TikToks, social media feeds there. And I think that really explains like the week of Charlie Kirk, because I follow so many church leaders and so many evangelical church leaders. I kind of got what might be called the right or wing, the right wing narrative on my social. But I was also seeing more in the news people who had the opposite feed happening. And I'm like, I haven't seen any of that. But if you have some people who are just. Their algorithms are different and Everybody's algorithm is different. It just makes so much sense. You've given me this light bulb moment where, of course, you're not gonna be able to please everybody because it's not just what they believe or how they voted. It's that all week they have been fed video after video after video after video after comment after reaction, piece after YouTube, after whatever of whatever is fueling, and probably on the extreme side, wherever they were leaning prior to an event, does that make sense? Like, I've never heard it articulated that plainly and that clearly, but it really, like, you really helped me piece something together. And of course that's what's happening.
- [12:20]
J.D. Greer
Right?
- [12:20]
Carrie Newhoff
I hadn't thought about that.
- [12:21]
J.D. Greer
Yeah.
- [12:22]
Carrie Newhoff
Like, I knew it, but I didn't connect it.
- [12:23]
J.D. Greer
Right. And there's a time and a place, you know, for church leaders to have to untangle that. There's also a time and a place just to. To mourn and meet people where they are. And I think, regardless, as you know, you even alluded to, as horrific as this was, it'd be hard for us to look into the future and say, nothing like this will ever happen again. And all the variables may be different, and this time it may be somebody that represents different things than. Than Charlie Kirk did, at least did, you know, politically. And we've got to ask, like, in that moment when there are these moments, whether their names are Charlie Kirk or some other tragedy, what is it that we want to. How do we want to meet people where they are, and how do we want to be. How do we want to not be subject to the forces that are trying to shape us and instead be forming? I mean, I know this sounds so, like, simplistic and Wendell Berry ish, but I feel like one of the biggest messages we tried to give to the church during that was, hey, there needs to be conversation in our small groups. It's not me from the pulpit that needs to do this. It's not you guys on social media. It's a group of people who are meeting together, who love and trust each other that can say, well, this is why I feel the way I feel, and this is why I'm reacting this way. That's how the church is supposed to work, not as a social media war.
- [13:40]
Carrie Newhoff
And did you suggest that? And if so, how did it go?
- [13:43]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, I mean, well, you know, things always sound so good when I suggest them and when I explain them on your show, Carrie. But people, we're all messy, aren't we? You know?
- [13:51]
Carrie Newhoff
Oh, yeah, my goodness, me too.
- [13:53]
J.D. Greer
Yeah. I mean, we're going to be dealing with this. And I would like to think that similar to some of the events in 2020, that even after we get through a little bit of the rough and tumble in it, that we'll be stronger and a better family because we went through this, you know, going back five years ago in 2020. I mean, our church, like, like every church, we lost people because we didn't do it exactly the way they thought.
- [14:15]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [14:15]
J.D. Greer
But the church that came through, that was stronger and more unified in Christ. And I'm hoping that similarly, those who press on into these relationships, that we'll be. Will be a greater body.
- [14:26]
Carrie Newhoff
So, full disclosure, I didn't listen to your announcement. I'm not even sure if it's online of, you know, the Sunday after Charlie Kirk's assassination. But you said something that I heard a lot of pastors try to do. It's like this is a week of mourning. It wasn't the only incident. There was that subway shooting. There were a number of things that happened that week. It was 9, 11, the memorial of that. And so they kind of rolled it into, like a, hey, we're going to pray together for everybody who's hurting. And what I heard, I wasn't preaching that weekend, and I'm a founding pastor, so it kind of gives me a pass on those. The static around this stuff is.
- [15:08]
J.D. Greer
Even.
- [15:08]
Carrie Newhoff
People who did that, which seems very pastoral, generate a lot of hate and resistance on both sides. Any thoughts? Could you tell us how you framed it and what the reaction was?
- [15:23]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, so I named him and called it an assassination. I explained at least what we were confident of at the time, that it was, you know, did seem ideologically motivated and that people were afraid. And this was an unmitigated, without caveat, tragedy.
- [15:37]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [15:37]
J.D. Greer
And it's. It's not democracy. This is. Is anarchy, you know, for those kinds of things. I, you know, I. I would not have felt comfortable. I would not have felt as honoring to our people or to them to just say the events of this week, you know, kind of lump them all together.
- [15:55]
Carrie Newhoff
We wanted to go specific. Name it.
- [15:57]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, name it. Because that just felt both pastorally like the right thing and, like I said, honoring kind of the moment, you know, where some people would have wanted to go beyond that is to really, you know, let's cancel the sermon and let's just talk about this and let's have a time where we, you know, grieve the persecution that people, you know, are under. There are some that wanted to go there. I did not feel that that was the right place for us to go. I knew that there were a lot of people coming back into church, you know, just because we've seen that, but wanted to use that moment to say, this is our message and this is. This is. We're gospel people.
- [16:36]
Carrie Newhoff
Today's episode is brought to you by the Aspen Group. Hey, everyone. You know, Christmas is almost here, and that means your church is about to see an increase in attendance and lots of first time guests walking through your doors. Most pastors focus on the practical experience of their buildings, like parking or navigation. But what often gets overlooked is the formational impact. Reality is your building is shaping people's experience of ministry. It's either working for your mission or it's working against your mission. And that's where Aspen Group comes in. Aspen Group helps churches steward their resources to create spaces that enhance mission, elevate growth, and establish longevity. Walking with you every step of the way, from the first idea to your final build. You may not be renovating before Christmas, but now is the perfect time to start dreaming and planning for the future. To learn more about how Aspen Group can help your space better serve your mission, visit aspengroup.com carrie that's a s p e n G-R-O-U p.com C-A-R-E-Y this episode is brought to you by my 2026 Church Trends. Hey, as you head into 2026, watch cultural shifts, do you need to keep an eye on as a church leader? I mean, it's a really big question, right? You got your head down trying to do the work from day to day, but there's some big stuff happening, right? You and I both know how easy it is to get caught up into the week to week of ministry, sermons, meetings, you know, Sunday after Sunday grind. And you just miss what's really going on in the culture. That's why every year I release my annual church trends report. And it's to help you see what's next and to lead with clarity. So for 2026, I've identified seven disruptive trends that are shaping the future of the church. And we're seeing Gen Z's surprising surge in church attendance. They're kind of leading it. Something very few people expected two years ago. There's a new boldness in evangelism I'm gonna be talking about, and maybe the most concerning of all. Most churches still aren't ready for the AI revolution that's already reshaping ministry and leadership. So those are just a few of the trends that that we'll be unpacking this year. The trends are backed by data, and I share my thoughts on why it's important and what you can do about it. So this year I'm doing something new. All the trends are premiering live inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You'll not only get the full 2026 Church Trends Report and the Leader Guide, but also a live interactive Q and A and podcast series. All of that is launching in January, so if you want to be the first to access it, head on over to 2026ChurchTrends.com for free access. Once you've signed up, you'll be in the loop for everything related to my 2026 church trends report. Again, it's all free, so just click the link in the description of this episode or visit 2026churchtrends.com the future of the church is still bright, especially for leaders who see it clearly and who respond wisely. Anything else on those difficult moments? And Charlie Kirk was just such a big national and international moment. The pressure that Here's a question for you. When something like that happens, and you're right, it won't be the last time. It wasn't quite the first time. It will not be the last time. What goes through you? What is your interior thought life, heart life, prayer life like, as that happens and you get ready to step up on a Sunday morning or on social media and speak into it?
- [20:10]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, there's a. I mean, I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that there's a great deal of consternation. And like, because you want to be. You want to be wise in this moment, you want to be helpful. I want to serve the forward interests of the gospel. I want to not be a distraction and realizing that people are in just such radically different places on it. You know, back in 2020, a lot of our white community had difficulty understanding what was happening in the black community through some of the things that were going on. And what I learned during that time is when something like that happens, I need to have the right counselors in my life that can help me understand how people who see the world maybe from a different viewpoint than I do, how they are processing things. Because that's part of pastoring is stepping into people's lives where they are grieving with those who grieve. And there were things that were occurring in that community, the black community, that somebody that lives in the white community just, just not as aware of. You know, here's a. Here's a narrative. Here's a set of questions and emotions that right or wrong, this is what's. What's happening, you know. So what I say would say to other pastors is make sure that that's a week that you do an extra amount of listening, that you're listening very, very deeply, which means some intentional listening.
- [21:25]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, like not just to your algorithm. Right. But listening to friends and elders and counsel and staff and the Lord. And.
- [21:32]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, I've had a practice, Carrie, for years of sending out the message that I plan to preach on Wednesday afternoon. I send it out and it goes to a very diverse group of people and they are reading it just through different lenses. And it's going to be everything from the counseling viewpoint to the female viewpoint to. Because they are seeing things even on a non charged week, they're seeing things that I'm just not thinking about because they've got a set of questions coming to a text or a principle that I wouldn't have. Especially on these kinds of weeks. We need that kind of counsel because in the multitude, that's where wisdom is.
- [22:10]
Carrie Newhoff
So don't go into the pulpit alone.
- [22:11]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. Yeah.
- [22:13]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay. The other thing you said earlier, which I totally resonate with the whole counsel of God. Right. So we have Genesis to Revelation. I remember when I was still part, before I became non denominational, we were part of a mainline denomination. Nobody was talking about the second coming. Nobody. And I'm like, all right, I'll be the one guy who talks about the second coming. Did a couple of series, did a series on Revelation, put it left behind.
- [22:38]
J.D. Greer
And it became a best selling document.
- [22:40]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, that was my pseudonym. Unfortunately, I gave them the wrong bank account. But, you know. Yeah, yeah, like I talked about it from that perspective because I thought if I'm gonna faithfully preach the Bible and I spoke out about sexuality when it wasn't popular, et cetera, et cetera. So I mean, I had that in my. I had kind of a regular rotation of like, okay, we haven't really dealt with that in a while. So I got to deal with that if we're going to preach the whole counsel of God. And I think pretty much everybody here who's a preacher hopefully resonates with that. It's like, yeah, you better cover the major issues. But I think the cultural pressure right now is, no, you need to be talking about. And let's move Charlie Kirchhoff to the side for a minute as the issue. But you need to be talking about immigration. Now, you need to be talking about this now. You need to be. Whatever is in the headline now, whatever is going viral on social media, you need to be speaking into that. Now, where is your line on where you speak into it and where you're just like, no, this is regularly scheduled programming.
- [23:43]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, that's a great question. And I don't. Can I ask you to have me on again in 15 years and see if my answer then is the same as it is now? Yeah, because it really, I mean, no less than D. Martin Lloyd Jones, who is the great, you know, the great God known for expository preaching. He said that when your congregation is all feeling something and they have that question and you're not addressing it.
- [24:06]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [24:06]
J.D. Greer
You know, then you just appear tone deaf and you feel like you're not leading people.
- [24:10]
Carrie Newhoff
That is very true.
- [24:12]
J.D. Greer
You know, there's one of my favorite insights that shapes me as a preacher is Matthew 28, when Jesus gives a great commission. He said that, you know, the only verb he uses in the Great Commission is disciple maker, like make disciples. Everything else in that verse construction that looks like a verb to us is actually a participle, which means it, you know, it's organized by going, isn't it?
- [24:37]
Carrie Newhoff
Is that right?
- [24:38]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, that's right. Going. Yeah, that's right. As you're going and baptizing and teaching them to observe all things. And what scholars say that means is that the central organizing principle of all that Jesus commissioned of is disciple making. Which means in my preaching, my point is not just working my way through 66 books of the Bible, that I'm actually disciple making. And the 66 books of the Bible are the criteria that I'm making disciples. And I know that may sound like a distinction without a difference, but it just means that my angle on how I'm preaching is actually formed by what's making the best disciple and not just what's the next verse in this chapter. So that's kind of one side of the equation for me. How do I meet people where they are and how do I use this as a discipleship moment? At the same time, I'm like, well, one of the values of expository preaching, where you're just kind of systematically, at least for a large portion of your preaching calendar, working through the Scriptures is you're letting God determine what the people want. And it's keeping you from getting onto two or three hobby horses that end up being the things that you talk about. John Stott wrote a book called the Preacher's Portrait where he talked about one of the biblical words that's used for the preacher is steward. And the word steward is the Greek for this household servant who managed the affairs of a wealthy person's house. And stop pointed out the wealthy person, the owner, the father, he's the one that determines what the kids eat and all these things, but the steward is the one that arranges it for the kids. And he said, so the steward doesn't just go to the pantry and just take it out in order. You know, green beans, green beans, green beans, green beans, onions, onions. You put together a meal. And he said, as a steward of God's word, I'm responsible for whatever God himself put into the pantry. But I'm doing it through the lens of how do I make disciples and pastor people? And so this is the most eloquent non answer you've ever received. But what I'm trying to say is I think it really is like a tension point where you have both. It is a tension where disciple making and pastoring is on one side and preaching the whole counsel of God, realizing that God is the one who stocked the pantry and this is what he wants to know. I'm doing that. It works out probably, Carrie, where I'd say 75%, let's say 70% of our programming is just working our way through the Bible. 20% is going to be the things that God's putting on me and other elders hearts for the church to know. That's going to be more topical. And then 10% is going to be responding to the moment, whether it's a tragedy in our community or whether it's even a holiday that you're saying, hey, this is what everybody's thinking about. Let's talk about it.
- [27:19]
Carrie Newhoff
It's interesting. There's sort of three categories. And I did actually find your answer helpful and clarifying. But I like what you said, and I think you were quoting Martyn Lloyd Jones, that there are times where your congregation is feeling something and it would be tone deaf not to address it. And that could be local, it could be a hurricane, it could be something like that, or it could be a national tragedy where it would be irresponsible and tone deaf. So there's what your church is feeling. But I also see two other things. There's sort of what. And this is where I think we get into trouble, maybe if we're looking at a trip line for when do you depart from regularly scheduled programming? And I'm just testing this out so see what you think. And I'd love your honest reaction. So your congregation's really feeling this. You have to go there. Sometimes you're really feeling it as a pastor, and that could be political or that could be, we just got to talk about the end times to pick on a subject we just raised or whatever that happens to be. And that you really have to be careful of because it can easily devolve into the third category, which is, this is what I think you should be feeling. Right. Where like, hey, you guys aren't taking this and that. You get into hobby horses, a phrase you used. If it's. You're always veering because this is what I want to talk about, or this is what I think you should be feeling. And you guys aren't feeling this. Right. And da, da, da. Hey, if you're doing the gospel like you're crying for your lost friends, sure, go ahead and take that on. But if it's a culture issue, does that make sense, those three categories, or feel free to disagree or nuance?
- [28:53]
J.D. Greer
No, I actually think it's very well put. There's some categories to kind of, like, think out of, because, you know, the part of that. That desire for that deep listening.
- [29:03]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [29:04]
J.D. Greer
And again, I'll use the racial one. You know, when. When we went through 2020, there was a set of questions that I just honestly wasn't feeling because it's just being a white guy in the South. I. I wasn't asking those. And, you know, I had several of our members, like, why are we even addressing any of this stuff? Like, nobody's. I want to come to church to escape. And I was like, well, just realize that there are other people that this is so heavy on their heart. It's weird for them not to have that talked about in their family of faith. And it's a little bit of a judgment call. That's why you need a lot of elders there. I would just put a big, huge exclamation point on the whole. Just because it's in the pastor's heart doesn't mean it's what God wants for his people. That might just be for me, and that might be something I need to do. And so when in doubt, I kind of almost look at it like, when in doubt, stick to working your way through the Bible and let the Holy Spirit kind of demonstrate to the counsel of others and your own spirit, hey, I got something here. And we need to actually lean into this. Let the burden of proof be on you to go that direction than to just stay working your way through God's word.
- [30:13]
Carrie Newhoff
You say something in your new book that I think vast majority of people would agree with. I can actually think of some people who would disagree with this, but I would be one who agrees with you, and that is that you shouldn't try to make your church the Democrat church or the Republican church. You just shouldn't do that. Right. Where one side of the aisle is welcome here, but the other isn't. And you can look at the evangelical church swinging to the right, the mainline church swinging to the left. You know, in the 60s, it was mixed. You would get a lot of Republicans and Democrats on both sides of the evangelical mainline thing, but it's like everything else, polarized. Anyway. Can you give me a couple of cross, like concrete examples where you're just like, yeah, we're probably not going to go there, or we haven't gone there to date just so that we have a little more of an anchoring in things that you think are faithful to talk about and not talk about.
- [31:05]
J.D. Greer
Yeah. So I already gave you a little bit of the criteria early on in our talk here about the dotted line versus the direct line. Anytime there's a direct line, what's a dotted line? So a dotted line I mentioned, you know, what's the right posture toward immigrants in our country? We know the right posture is humane. They are people made in the image of God. They're worthy of respect and dignity. But what is the posture toward how many immigrants should a compassionate country let in? What do you do about the rule of law? What do you do about people who have broken the law? On that There can be Christians who are motivated in similar ways by love of the glory of God and the image of God and also, you know, see certain justice questions differently. And I want to, I can have my perspective on it, but that's not one where I say thus says the Lord or even thus thinks JD I'm very zealous about our pulpit to be a place where people can depend on that being thus says the Lord and not thus thinketh JD and there are a lot of things that I would have, perhaps even in this conversation, a live conversation, where I'm like, hey, I'm not in the pulpit and Carrie and I are just talking about an issue. And I can be a little bit more forthcoming with my opinion. But when I say, well, I'm the.
- [32:22]
Carrie Newhoff
Same way, I have a lot of thoughts on a lot of issues, but there are very few things I'm going to speak out publicly on.
- [32:27]
J.D. Greer
Yes. Right. And so when I'm behind that Pulpit. One of the ways I kind of say it a little bit tongue in cheek to our congregation is I might be wrong in my perspective on global warming, but I am not wrong about the gospel. And I don't want my perspective on the former to keep people from hearing me on the latter, even if I think that their perspective is wrong. I've got friends who. The way they approach, whether it's the regulation of business or nationalized healthcare, I don't know. Gary, you're Canadian. Maybe we would disagree on that if we talked about it long enough.
- [32:59]
Carrie Newhoff
Both systems have problems, let me tell you.
- [33:01]
J.D. Greer
Okay, well, we come down, I'd say, and men, we could one night over a campfire, we could just have it out if we disagreed on it. But I wouldn't want somebody to feel like that was a test of faith or that somehow this is a gospel, an issue that you're not welcome in the fellowship of the church. And I see a couple of biblical examples on that that are really important. I'll mention them real quick. One's Romans 14, where Paul is talking about what to us feels like a very pedestrian issue. I mean, eating meat and. But for them, it was emotionally charged with layers and layers of cultural and spiritual baggage.
- [33:39]
Carrie Newhoff
Oh, that was spiritual, not just cultural. It was like, whoa, that was sacrifice to idols.
- [33:45]
J.D. Greer
Right? And Paul, you know, it's funny if you read it, I mean, at least humorous, where Paul, he's not shy about telling you what his opinion is because he actually, he makes it pretty clear I'm on Team Meat Eater. And he says, those who disagree with me are weak in the faith. Like, so he's not, like, shielding what he really thinks.
- [34:03]
Carrie Newhoff
It's true.
- [34:05]
J.D. Greer
So he said, but I'm not gonna let that become an issue that divides this. And if I've got to actually tone down my freedom in Christ and even teaching on this at the moment, then this is what I'll do. Or use one more on this one. Acts 15. Acts 15, you've got. The church comes together because they're divided on this. You basically got a Jewish and gentile flight. If the church is led by a Gentile, you get Jewish flight and vice versa. And so they come together. And, you know, we read over this so many times, Kerry, that we. We almost lose. How bizarre the solution they came up with was, which is like, okay, all right, no more prostitutes. Which I feel like that's pretty, you know, straightforward.
- [34:45]
Carrie Newhoff
No more idols.
- [34:46]
J.D. Greer
You know, okay, we're all on the same page there. And don't eat anything that's strangled. And you're like, wait, what? Like, of all the things that you're going to say, that one had the. And what scholars say is that that was so offensive culturally to the Jews to eat something that had died that way because it meant all the blood was still in the body. And that even though Gentiles were technically free in Christ to eat that these guys are like, hey, just for the sake of the church, could you not do this? Yeah, because it's going to cause division. And they were asking them to do what Paul basically did in Romans 14, which is not to change their convictions, but to not necessarily lead and put that forward. There's a phrase, Carrie, that James uses in that story that I wish that I could. I wish that I could blast it over every pulpit in America and every one of our Facebook pages and Instagram things. You should not make it hard for Gentiles who are turning to God.
- [35:45]
Carrie Newhoff
Such a great verse.
- [35:46]
J.D. Greer
And I want to say you should not make it hard for black seekers and white seekers and brown seekers and Republicans and Democrats. Yeah, you got to teach the full council of God. You got to say, no prostitutes and no idol, whatever that is in our culture. But you also don't make it hard for somebody because you're asking them to go to another level where you're like, here's how I apply this when it comes to healthcare and immigration and all that stuff. And then when you attach a ideological label to it, like Republican or Democrat, you become something where you've just made it really difficult. I tell you one. You ask for concrete examples. There's one story, and I tell this in the book. There was a. I said something on Twitter or X about being pro life. And I say that on a regular basis, and I have no problems with it. I'm pro life. This is what the Bible teaches. Well, a girl, she snipes back at me, Carrie. I never respond on Twitter to anybody. I mean, I just.
- [36:45]
Carrie Newhoff
In general, I try it once a year and instantly regret it. Instantly.
- [36:49]
J.D. Greer
I'm back to my original thing, but I don't know, for whatever reason, I just. I did. I responded back and I said something and it was a little chippy, but, you know, I tried to be gracious and clear. And your little interaction died down. Well, I get a. I get a letter a few months later. That's a picture of a girl I've never seen before in our church. And she's got a picture of her being baptized, by the way. I remembered her handle that. This girl went back and forth with her name was something like Left Linda, you know, or something, whatever. She identified pretty clearly what she was picture. And she. The opening part of the letter with a picture of her being baptized. She basically said I was Left Linda. And she said, I moved here from west. The West Coast. Some friends of mine invited me to come to the church. She said immediately, I was offended by what your church taught on various controversial issues, that homosexuality and all that kind of stuff. And she said, but I kept coming. And she said, I was the one that sniped at you. And she said, to make a long story short, God got a hold of my heart and changed me, and I've become a Christian. Wow. Now she's in the process of rethinking everything. Right. You know, and she kind of acknowledged that. But she said, I want to thank you that even though you were committed to teaching hard truths, I want to thank you that you didn't make this the Republican church, because if you had, she said, I know I never could have stepped foot in there.
- [38:08]
Carrie Newhoff
Wow.
- [38:09]
J.D. Greer
And so it felt to me like a right affirmation of a balance, which was hard truth, you know, controversial truth, but still avoiding a label that would have created a barrier and made it hard for her to, you know, to turn to God. You know, I realized that, you know, Abraham Kuyper's famous words, that there's not one square inch of the entire cosmos over which Jesus doesn't declare mine. When somebody becomes a Christian, it will affect every level of their politics or every level of their life. But those things are the result of discipleship. They shouldn't be the prerequisite for or the barrier to discipleship. We want to make the issue the lordship of Jesus and the Gospel. And that's. I want to use every ounce of my bandwidth to put that forward, put that forward, and then call people to a life of discipleship, not create barriers that keep them out.
- [39:03]
Carrie Newhoff
This episode is brought to you by Subsplash. Did you know the average church juggles six or more different platforms just to do ministry? Websites, apps, media, giving tools, messaging platforms. The list just goes on and on and on. You know what the result is? Frustrated leaders, disconnected people, and too often missed opportunities for life change. And if you've ever felt buried under the weight of managing systems and technology instead of leading your church, you're not alone. Subsplash was built to change that. It's one unified platform that brings together your website, mobile app, giving, church management, live streaming, and more. So you can simplify your systems to amplify your Ministry impact. That means less time wasted on managing different systems and more time making disciples. So cut the clutter, keep the calling. Subsplash is here to help. Head to subsplash.com carrytoday and you'll save $500 when you sign up. You said something that really intrigued me, JD about I'm going to just call it credibility. And if you're always speaking out on culture war issues, and there's always a new issue in the culture war, always. But let's say, and I'm asking this because the vast majority of pastors I know and I talk to lots and lots and lots of pastors are not out on the edge of the culture war issue. Really preaching the culture, not Christ. Okay? There's some out there and they're very. They get a lot of traction on social media. Vast majority of pastors I know are not there. They're trying to find what you're trying to find and finding it very difficult. But, you know, just for motivation, if you're always talking about the culture and the gospel is sort of in. We can find some evidence for this in, you know, Obadiah. It's not even, you know, like, I think I made that up. You know, we'll find this somewhere. Then you really undermine your credibility. Are you saying you undermine your credibility because you're talking about the dotted line issues more than you are about the solid line issues, the cultural issues more than you are the gospel, or you're just using the gospel to underscore whatever's happening in the culture? Is that a way to kill your credibility?
- [41:20]
J.D. Greer
So DA Carson, the Reformed theologian, he says that error is sometimes truth out of proportion. And it means sometimes you can be wrong, not in what you say, but by what emphasis you put on what syllable, you know, wrong. And I think that when it comes to my role as a preacher, that can be true. One of the statements I make in the book and really try to unpack is you can be accurate and fully truthful in everything you say and still be unfaithful in the mission of Jesus. Because Jesus. Jesus's description that John, the Apostle John gives them is that he was filled with grace and truth. Yeah, Right now, filled with truth. Which means he, you know, in fact, he made people so mad they killed him for it. But what John put first and what he was also filled with was a grace that made sinners want to be close to him. And if we're going to represent Jesus, I think you're going to have that posture of filled with grace and truth. And that's going to change the way that you preach. Doesn't mean you get soft. It doesn't mean that you. You, everything's fine. Let's talk about rainbows and snuggles and you're a Skittle. And I don't mean any of that. But it just. What you see is that Jesus, he loved and had relationships with sinful people and ways that they knew, like, he loves me, and he is teaching what's best for my life. And his statements of truth came out in that context. I've heard it said before that grace without truth is liberalism. Truth without grace is Christless conservatism. And either one of those, neither one of those is the gospel. Jesus was filled with both. And if I use one other example, because I use a lot of the book to really build this out. Daniel, in the book of the Book of Daniel, here's a guy that is so courageous that he ends up in a lion's den, and yet he is so beloved by the king whose decree put him there, that the king stays outside the lion's den all night weeping, hoping against hope that Daniel will make it through the night. And one of my questions is, how do you become like that in your community where you're so clear on truth that they want to throw you in the lion's den? But you know, man, they just. They know that you're a friend, they know how much you love them, that they couldn't imagine Babylon without you. And so we always say it here at our church, and we want our community to say, man, we don't believe what those crazy. We may not believe what those crazy people at Summit Church believe, but thank God they're here, because if not, we'd all have to raise our taxes. You know, that's the role we want to have in that community. I don't think King Darius was standing outside of the lion's den weeping because he, you know, really missed Daniel's stinging prophetic rebukes. Daniel clearly gave those. That's how he ended up in the lion's den. But I think what he was doing is he was weeping because he was like, Daniel was our friend. And I can't imagine Babylon without Daniel. And that's how we want to be. And that's filled with grace and truth.
- [44:20]
Carrie Newhoff
Switching gears a little bit, how have the culture war changes. How have the culture wars changed since, say, the height of the Jerry Falwell days? What's different about it now, for better or for worse?
- [44:32]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, it's interesting because I Feel like I'm finally getting to the age now that I'm in my early 30s.
- [44:39]
Carrie Newhoff
Yes, me too.
- [44:40]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, that's right. But now you're actually starting to see a little bit of cyclical stuff, you know.
- [44:45]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [44:46]
J.D. Greer
For a while, it's like everything was brand new. I heard Dr. Keller say this. In fact, one of the last conversations he and I had before he passed is he said, man, you know, it's at a point where I've. I've seen a few of these cycles, and I don't know if I want to go through them again. You know, just some of the cultural cycles.
- [44:59]
Carrie Newhoff
I think that's a very real thing. When you get older, it's kind of like, I know how this ends. It's not good. Right, well, Billy Graham always wins. I'm going to hang on to that one, but.
- [45:08]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, exactly. Right. Well, yeah, so actually, I think we need. I think you and I talk about that offline. I mean, we need to give that a little context. We have a new. A new believer here at the church who's a historian of religion. Her name is Molly Worthen. She's professor, writes for the New York Times, the whole deal. But she said, hey, in every generation, we see these same battles. There's a Bob Jones versus Billy Graham.
- [45:29]
Carrie Newhoff
Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry, that was offline. Yeah.
- [45:31]
J.D. Greer
Well, now everybody. Nobody's heard it. But anyway, so to go to your question, I do think there is.
- [45:37]
Carrie Newhoff
Do you want to finish that thought? Because it is a really good thought.
- [45:39]
J.D. Greer
Oh, did I just leave it hanging? Yeah, yeah. In every generation, there's a Bob Jones versus Billy Graham kind of struggle. And she said, history and baptisms are always on the side of Billy Graham. People that are gospel forward and mission forward. It doesn't mean the doctrine's not important. Of course not. But it means it's in the service of, you know, the Son of man came to seek and save the lost, and that's what. What a church is doing. Okay, so back to Jerry Falwell. I think there's actually some similarities between that. There's sort of a thing. I do think, you know, who was it Aaron Wren, who said that we're in now what they call a negative world?
- [46:12]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah. Life in the negative world. Aaron ran. I read that book earlier this year.
- [46:15]
J.D. Greer
Interesting book. I think, honestly, his category is probably a little simplistic, because I was alive in what he called the positive world, and it wasn't that positive. But basically, he says that in a positive world, Christianity is a social asset. In a Neutral world. It's one option among many. In a negative world, it's now part of the problem. And he tracks that as starting in 2014 with Obergefell. That's when it became negative. The assassination of Charlie Kirk certainly is a. An evidence of being in that kind of world, even if you want to quibble with his categories. I do think that we're in a place now where there was a. There's a moment where. Where it was like, okay, what is the future of Christianity going to be? One of the things that's encouraging right now and presents a. A real challenge or opportunity is with Gen Z coming back to church. Why is that? You know, what's happening? Well, a lot of people say, and I agree with this, that it's kind of like this generation is growing up realizing that the foundation of secularism is crumbling and they're looking for something, and obviously Jesus. And this whole thing is like, that is something. They're like, that is what I'm looking for. You ever read the book A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Van Aken? He's got to see a soul sled to Christ, which talk about cool resumes. Yes, he has. Lewis led me to Christ has to go in your byline. But he talked about he was basically atheist at Oxford, who Lewis led to Christ. And he said that he had this great image of when he finally made the leap to Jesus. He said, what I realized was that it wasn't that I was leaping from a cliff of security onto Jesus. He said this cliff was crumbling, I had nowhere to go. And in some ways, I just in desperation jumped to Jesus because I knew this wasn't going to hold me. Well, I thought of that as being a good kind of, like, depiction of where that this generation was is they're like, look, I don't know where we're going to go, but we can't stay here. This is madness.
- [48:14]
Carrie Newhoff
Do you know Luke Lefever by any chance?
- [48:16]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, absolutely.
- [48:17]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly Luke's take on this. It's like they went from despair to desperation.
- [48:22]
J.D. Greer
Yeah.
- [48:23]
Carrie Newhoff
And like, this whole thing is on fire. What else is there? Let's look at Jesus.
- [48:30]
J.D. Greer
And so I think the moment of opportunity. This goes back to your Jerry Falwell question is, what are we going to do with this resurgence? Are we going to allow political operatives to just turn it into a voting block? And again, I actually feel like a lot of positive and people going to the polls to vote from a Christian worldview. So I'm not trying to poo poo that. But are we going to primarily grab ahold of this surging spiritual interest and this generation to say, hey, it's the gospel mission. It's that yearning for revival that you've been talking about here on your podcast. We want this to be a gospel resurgence that ends with church planting and missions around the world and transformation. But because the gospel is the tip of the spear, this is not just something we can commandeer into a voting block.
- [49:21]
Carrie Newhoff
Do you think that's the fork in the road that we could be facing with Gen Z? That they'll either be turned into a political voting block or a gospel resurgence? Do you see that as a possibility?
- [49:35]
J.D. Greer
I do think that. And that's part of what, you know, everyday revolutionary. I'm realizing when I started to write this a year and a half, two years ago that, you know, I mean, you know how it is as an author, Kerry, you write kind of out of what you're. You're sensing, what you're personally struggling with, how I'm trying to lead our church. And I'm realizing that what we're picking up on is this moment where we really are going to go one of two directions. I don't mean to put them as opposite, because I know they're not. Anytime the gospel's preached, there is social transformation. But what we see in the New Testament is that the gospel preaching is primary and the social transformation is what follows. And when you put those in the opposite order, where your emphasis starts to go on social transformation, it becomes a different thing. It becomes a different thing.
- [50:24]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah. The social gospel movement of the early 20th century, I mean, basically you can trace some of the church decline to that.
- [50:31]
J.D. Greer
Absolutely. Yeah. How many times we have to tell this story of like, don't let anything displace this preaching of the gospel. If I could use one more biblical example, that to me has been really instructive. You know, there's a story in Luke 12 where a disciple, excuse me, not disciple, a brother comes to Jesus, a younger brother, because he's upset that his older brother has cheated him out of the inheritance. And he's like, hey, tell my brother to act right. And dear Martin Lloyd Jones, again, very reformed, very expository, says, notice Jesus's response here is he says, man, who made me a judge over you? And Lloyd Jones says, why would he respond that way? Does he not care about justice? Does he not feel qualified to give an opinion? Well, of course not. Jesus deeply cared about justice, and he would have been very qualified to give an opinion. But what he did in that moment is he said, man, who may be a judge over you. And then Jesus proceeded to preach a sermon on greed that would have applied to both brothers about the problem of idolatry and all the crowd that was listening. And what Lloyd Jones said is he said, really what Jesus understood in that moment was not that justice wasn't important, but that what his commission was was to preach in a way that engaged the idolatry of the whole group. And not just he said Lloyd Jones. I mean, had Jesus weighed in on that one, first of all, he would have cut off anybody who agreed with the older brother. And then, second of all, he would have had a line a mile long the next day of people who wanted him to, you know, weigh in on their cases. And he said, for Jesus, it wasn't that he didn't care about justice. It's that. Is that he knew the preaching of the Gospel had to be paramount, and that was going to be what defined his preaching, his movement, and his message. And that's what needs to define the movement and message of this generation returning to church.
- [52:19]
Carrie Newhoff
What's at stake in this moment in the culture wars in America?
- [52:25]
J.D. Greer
I mean, are we asking that from the perspective of the nation or you think from the church, or just however I want?
- [52:31]
Carrie Newhoff
You can answer it both ways. Either way.
- [52:33]
J.D. Greer
I mean, I'm very. I'm gonna say, hopefully this is not whiplash for your listeners. But, yes, I'm very concerned about where the discourse is in our country. I'm concerned about the. The.
- [52:44]
Carrie Newhoff
The.
- [52:44]
J.D. Greer
The. The tribalism that is identifying, you know, like. Like these are the. These are the white hats, and these are the black hats. And, you know, that just the tearing, you know, how discourses is just not happening anymore. You only talk with the people that are in there. I think that is, you know, I think there's a lot of things that I'm very concerned about labeling one side of the political aisle the Jesus side, and making it, you know, equivalent to that. It's not that I don't think there are wiser choices. I do. But the third commandment is, you shall not take the Lord's name in vain. Which, you know, we know means more than just not swearing. It means that you don't ever attach God's name to something that is unworthy of him. And when you make Jesus synonymous with one particular side of the aisle, then you also make him responsible for everything that happens on that side of the aisle. And I'm like, look, you know, as president of the sbc, People associate us with the political right. That's not, that shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, right? So that means I feel a little extra, I preach against anything, you know, like whatever's in the Bible but I actually feel a little extra burden to make clear where the gospel of Jesus would differ than somebody who was a political spokesman from the right. Because I don't want the gospel of Jesus or the name of Jesus to be sullied with this non Jesus thing because to me that's taking his name in vain. And the name of Jesus is the man most precious thing in the world because it's the only way of salvation. And the one thing that I have to do, we have to do is we have to keep the name of Jesus holy and clear because it's the, you know, the name that has salvation in it. So I don't know if I'm making sense on that other than to say that what I feel like we've got to do in this cultural moment is we have to, we have to make sure that we are being clear on what belongs to Jesus and what, what are good political programs that are secondary or the applications of wisdom.
- [54:54]
Carrie Newhoff
When you think about what's happening with Gen Z, my take of it is it hasn't turned into a voting bloc. There is a genuine revival happening. At least that's what I'm seeing from the people who are there. And there is a political overtone to it but I don't think it's been co opted so to speak and I hope that that continues that there's a genuine commitment to what I think of as an alternative kingdom, the kingdom that Jesus is bringing in which N.T. wright would talk about, you would talk about, others would talk about what happens to the church of these culture wars continue and become the dominant dialogue. Where do we end up if this gets quote worse?
- [55:39]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, I mean so there again so people don't take this out of context. There is our social applications that we have after we get discipled. So I don't want to say that that's why I use the word transcend the culture war. I always say faithfulness to Jesus is not less than clarity about cultural issues. It's just a lot more if it ceases to be the more aspect and it just becomes about pontificating societal things like I said earlier, you end up losing the gospel because truth without grace, truth without the salvation focus of what Jesus called us to do is you know that to me when I say that the negative part of culture war is treating it all like, it's a political program versus, you know, Jesus's salvation was it started with the heart. I mean, Rome had all kinds of political problems. Yeah. Paul even rebukes some of them in some of his epistles, but none of the epistles has as their primary thing how to reform Rome. Now, I know people.
- [56:40]
Carrie Newhoff
Here's another thing. Caesar. And here's another thing. Yeah.
- [56:43]
J.D. Greer
Now, I know some people hear that and say, well, they didn't have the options that we have because they couldn't vote. I understand that we have some options. But, you know, the point is, at every point in the Gospels and in the Book of Acts, you see the apostles and Jesus steering away from, hey, let's turn this into a political program and turning it more into, let's preach the gospel, make disciples. And the result of that, the downstream result of that is everything in society is going to change. I mean, Tom Holland, the historian.
- [57:10]
Carrie Newhoff
Oh, yeah, what a great book. Dominion.
- [57:12]
J.D. Greer
Oh, yeah. But he demonstrates that wherever the gospel is embraced and believed, the greatest reforms socially in the world happen because of that. So, yeah, I don't want to say this.
- [57:22]
Carrie Newhoff
It does have political implications. And we should be clear because we've been talking about the other side. The gospel has political implications. It has social implications, but they often don't look like what the culture war says they are.
- [57:35]
J.D. Greer
Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, you've heard this before, but when Christianity weds, when the church unites with politics, what you get is politics, you know, or, you know, you know, when the church gets in bed with politics, the church gets pregnant is, you know, another way I've heard it said. And what we have to do is say, okay, our mission, the mission that we have is we are here to preach the gospel, make disciples. There's a distinction I unpack in the book that was really helpful for me in this. This was an aha, mom, for me. So if you give me a second to describe it, Abraham Kuyper, who we've already referred to once, he talked in his writings about the difference in the church as organization and the church as organism. He said, as an organism, the church is everywhere. The members of the church are everywhere, and they are bringing the salt and light of Jesus's shalom and his kingdom principles into everything from how we do education to how we do real estate, to how we make laws in Congress. There's not one square inch. That's where that phrase comes from, over which Jesus says, declare mine. He said, the church as organization actually has a very narrow calling and As a officer, as a pastor, a representative of that organization. That's where I will show some of the restraint that Jesus did, where in the discussion with the brothers, like, hey, that's not my role. That is not my role to put an opinion about global warming out there and attach thus says the Lord to it. Right? That's different. So I'm gonna actually show some restraint, even though I want members of our church thinking as Christians in the global warming question they're out there doing, because that's the church's organism. And that distinction has really helped me say, hey, we want to affect every part of our society, but just understand that the pulpit of this church, we actually church as organization. We have a more limited lane. And we're going to be pretty disciplined about making sure that our statements that we make and the energy we directed this church is going to be inside of that lane and not. And all the myriad ways that the gospel impacts society out in the community.
- [59:33]
Carrie Newhoff
What are some of the key practices? And I know we talked about this already, but if you had to summarize a few of the things we talked about or introduce a couple of new ideas, what are some of the principles or practices that keep you grounded in this and not getting sucked into putting your head down and never speaking about an issue or just playing into the culture wars. What are some personal practices?
- [59:57]
J.D. Greer
Well, I build the second section of this book around Paul's admonition to live quietly. It's his phrase in 1 Thessalonians 4:11, Peter who writes for people who live in exile in Babylon. That's how he postures his Epistle. He actually says, live remarkably, the word is kalos. But he's talking about the same idea, live quietly. That seems like an odd instruction from the guy who, you know, showed up in the amphitheater and shouted down the Ephesians and told them their gods were not really gods at all, right? Or Peter, you know, he stands up in Acts 2 and tells them they're, you know, crucified Jesus, wicked hands. But what they were getting at, live quietly, is the job description of the normal Christian, of the average Christian going in there is to live their life in a way that sets up a dramatic contrast with Babylon and that, you know, this is where Peter says, 1 Peter 3:15, when you live this way, they will ask a reason for the hope that is within you. What I try to do in the book is I give you five principles from Paul and Peter of living quietly that set up for a loud testimony.
- [61:09]
Carrie Newhoff
Let's go through that.
- [61:10]
J.D. Greer
Okay, so these apply to you. Whether you're a third grade teacher or the CFO of a multinational conglomerate, you're going to live in a way that is creation fulfilling. Because the first commission that was given to us even before the Great Commission, was the Creation Commission, where we're supposed to develop the earth for the benefit and the beauty of humans. So, you know, whether you're a bread truck driver or whether you're, you know, building skyscrapers, you're doing that as a way of making the world a better place. The second one is it is going to be excellence pursuing, because, you know, Paul says, whatever you're doing, do it as an offering to God that people see the excellence. Daniel was described as having an excellent spirit about him, which he defines as he did his work with integrity and he did it with diligence. So it's excellence pursuing. The third one is holiness reflecting, and that is, it's reflecting. Peter says, a holy God, he is holy. So you were holy. And that's reflected in the way you do your business. And then redemption displaying is this idea that Christians who've been radically impacted by grace, they can't help but have that just seep out into the way they do business, into how they treat their customers in all these ways. The gospel just sort of seeps through and it provokes that reason, like, why? Why are you doing this the way that you're doing it? And it's because you can. You point to the gospel and then the last one is mission advancing. And that is where you are. Using the Proverbs 22, 29, you see a man who is skillful in his work, he will stand before kings. You know, you were using these moments before kings to be able to testify to your king, the king of your home country. That is motivating you beyond what's there. Those are five things I feel like, yes, what should you do tomorrow? These are the five things you should do tomorrow, and you should live these out. And that's a life of discipleship for the rest of your life.
- [63:03]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, most of us are going to pick a couple, but that list is challenging. One or two more questions for you, jd. How much of what we talked about in the culture wars, or you can take this wherever you want, is related to identity? I can get known for what I agree with and what I disagree with.
- [63:26]
J.D. Greer
With.
- [63:26]
Carrie Newhoff
I can become famous for what I agree with and what I disagree with. Do you think any of this is tied to identity?
- [63:33]
J.D. Greer
And if so, how are you saying.
- [63:37]
Carrie Newhoff
That my position on Issues.
- [63:39]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, Like. And then that helps me in my following. Or is that.
- [63:43]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah. Helps in my following. Helps grow my church. I'm looking. Looking for something I wrote yesterday, but you keep going. Here we go.
- [63:51]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, well, you know, I do wonder, like, it's sort of ironic that, you know, if you're looking to be a gospel forward church and to not have secondary things that define you. The irony is it actually, it won't increase your audience, it will decrease your audience.
- [64:12]
Carrie Newhoff
I think that's what a lot of us fear.
- [64:14]
J.D. Greer
Yes. I mean, you know, but the solace I take biblically is I think that Paul would have told you the fastest way to just grow certain churches would be if you went to Ephesus to plant First Baptist Jew on one side and First Baptist Gentile on the other. Right. Because, you know, they would have eaten and you wouldn't have all these epistles about what to eat and not eat, because they would have all eaten the same things.
- [64:38]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [64:39]
J.D. Greer
But instead, he planted one church with Jew and Gentile. I actually had to preach on Philippi this morning to a group of church leaders in Acts 16. And here you got the first four converts in the church of Philippi. First church of Philippi is a woman, Lydia, a slave girl. And the Roman jailer, a Gentile. And the Sidur, which was the Jewish prayer book, they're my utmost for his highest that they used every morning. Every morning a Jewish man would pray, lord, thank you. I'm not a woman, a slave or a Gentile. And the first church is a Jewish Pharisee, a woman, a slave and a Gentile. And you know what you've got is you got a group of people that are like man. They would have been social enemies. And then they found this unity in the Gospel. And Paul says in Ephesians 3:10, that that is in and of itself a declaration of the mystery and the power of God. So, yeah, I'm trying to reach as many people as possible, but I know if you were just like, hey, J.D. you gotta get an extra 5,000 people in your church by three weeks from now. The way to do that is I would lean hard into one of these political sides and 1,000 people would leave and 6,000 would come. But what God has called me to do is he's called me to help to lead and shape a community whose defining characteristic is not secondary issues or preferences, but our primary unity is in the Gospel of Jesus.
- [66:03]
Carrie Newhoff
I think I want to leave it there. Yeah, that's a really good admonition. And maybe to encourage people listening. If it's hard, perhaps you're doing it right.
- [66:15]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, yeah.
- [66:18]
Carrie Newhoff
The book is called Everyday Revolutionary. And what's the subtitle? It's so good. How to Transcend the Culture Wars. Brave man. You can retire now. That was good. I know you're not going to, but, like.
- [66:30]
J.D. Greer
Well, no, you know, I was thinking. This is what I was. What I was trying to say. Should I say this or not, but Jesus's crucifixion was a joint project. I know this is a little simplistic, but it's a joint project of the secular left and the religious right. I'm not trying to morally equivocate or say that they're the same or that they're equally bad. I'm just saying the facts are, when it came time for him to be crucified, they both hated him, and they hated him for different reasons. And so, you know, we. I spent all my life carrying my. My own background is I grew up in a very. Called Independent Baptist, which means it was, you know, just kind of fighting fundy all my life. I got warned about the ditch on the left side of the gospel road. And that ditch is called compromise, you know, in cowardly silence. But it's like the old Scottish proverb says, for every one mile of road, you got two miles of ditch. Nobody ever warned me about the ditch on the right side of the road, which was this gospel superseding conservatism that corrupted the message and left it with culture war, when what the real message was a savior that was filled with grace and truth. That's not less than clarity about cultural issues, but it is more. And so we expect that if we really are gospel emissaries. Yeah, you gotta have to. You're gonna be taking stuff from both sides. If you're not, then you're probably not doing it right, you know, because there's forces in our world don't change. So anyway, I didn't drop that in at the very end after you were concluding.
- [67:59]
Carrie Newhoff
I am so glad you dropped that in. That is very, very clarifying and convicting. And you know what? There are days I was talking to a buddy yesterday where I missed Tim Keller, which is pretty regular. And you wonder who's speaking into this. And you are speaking into this cultural moment right now. And I just want to say thank you on behalf of all of our listeners and for every person that you anger by saying this, you're probably going to help 10. So I just want to say thank you, J.D.
- [68:29]
J.D. Greer
But why is it that it's only the one and not the 10 who write me?
- [68:32]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, exactly. Well, there you go. You got to figure that out, right? I think Jesus told a parable about that.
- [68:38]
J.D. Greer
Yeah, that's right. I appreciate you, Carrie. Thanks for.
- [68:40]
Carrie Newhoff
Appreciate you, man. Looking forward to hanging out again. Really grateful for you. Thank you. Well, I hope that was helpful, man. It Really, I mean J.D. thank you so much for that and discipleship by algorithm. I know various people have talked about that over the years, but in this conversation it crystallized for me. And watch for that in Church Trends 2026 in January when that comes out. Next episode we're into December. Lisa Terkerst is on. Is your marriage difficult or destructive? What is a biblical understanding of divorce? And a whole lot more with Lisa Terkeurst. We really go there next week. Coming up, N.T. wright, J.R. briggs, Sharon Hoddie Miller, 2026 Church Trends. And then next year we got John Mark Comer, Craig Groeschel and a whole lot more. Thank you so much for listening. If this conversation was helpful, leave a review or comment wherever you're listening. Don't forget to share it with a friend. And remember too that we got show notes for you. You can go to my Art of Leadership Academy. We have over 14,000 leaders there. There you can create a free account and get the show notes there. Just go to theartofleadershipacademy.com move from the crowd to the core like 14,000 other church pastors have. You know what the other thing I love about the Academy the most is we have some really thoughtful, helpful conversations. So join us there in the Academy. We'll catch you next time on the podcast. Thanks so much for listening. I hope today's episode helped you identify and break a grid growth barrier you're facing. Hey leaders, before we go today, if you want to expand your thinking, grow your leadership and get some really relevant, fascinating, curious content about ministry, the future church and other random topics I find helpful as a church leader, check out my newsletter on the Rise. It's my once per week Friday newsletter that gets sent directly to your inbox every single week. And it's totally free. If you want to start receiving on the Rise along with over 100,000 other leaders every single week, visit ontherisenewsletter.com for free. You can sign up today. So when you sign up, I'll send you a sample newsletter right away. You can get an instant taste of what it's like. If it isn't for you, you can unsubscribe at any time. That's ontherisenewsletter.com to get curated content about ministry, culture, the future and more. One of my favorite things to do every week. I don't want you to miss it.