Podcast Summary: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast (CNLP 771)

Episode Title: Is Your Marriage Difficult or Destructive? When God Releases You From Marriage with Lysa TerKeurst
Date: December 4, 2025
Host: Carey Nieuwhof (Art of Leadership Network)
Guest: Lysa TerKeurst – President, Proverbs 31 Ministry; Author of “Surviving an Unwanted Divorce”

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the complexities surrounding Christian marriage, divorce, and the biblical, emotional, and practical distinctions between “difficult” and “destructive” marriages. Lysa TerKeurst shares wisdom from her personal story of navigating unwanted divorce and unpacks theological, pastoral, and psychological dimensions that leaders and listeners need to know. Carey and Lysa explore how the church often mishandles these situations, offer grace-based perspectives, and lay out helpful advice for those in ministry or struggling within their own relationship.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Heart Behind the Book

• Reluctance and Responsibility: Lysa admits initial hesitation in writing on divorce, not wanting to be “pro-divorce” but feeling a responsibility to share insights gained from both personal experience and the experts (03:08).
  • Quote: “I don't ever want to give anyone the impression that I'm pro divorce, because I'm not. I'm very pro marriage, but I'm pro healthy marriage.” — Lysa (02:04)
• Accessible Wisdom: Lysa emphasized the need for all women—especially those in Christian spaces—to have access to therapeutic and theological wisdom during crises (03:08).

Biblical Grounds for Divorce: Nuance, Not Black and White

• Misuse of Malachi 2:16 (“God hates divorce”)
  • Lysa outlines how weaponizing this verse causes harm, especially when used simplistically (04:21).
• Context and Correct Interpretation:
  • Lysa explains the translation differences (King James vs Septuagint) and notes the NIV’s newer, more faithful rendering:
    “When a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord.” (06:10)
  • Quote: “We cannot elevate the institution of marriage over protecting the sanctity of life of an image bearer of Christ.” — Lysa (07:34)

Difficult vs. Destructive Marriages: Key Distinctions

• Difficult Marriage:
  • Characterized by two humble, repentant, and willing people working through issues (08:58).
  • “Marriage difficulties, they're quite normal...those are good reasons to go to marriage counseling.” — Lysa (09:19)
• Destructive Marriage:
  • Marked by repeated patterns of abuse, neglect, or unrepentant harm from one spouse, refusing responsibility or change (09:47).
  • “A mistake, which there's grace for, [is different from] a destructive pattern.” (10:44)
  • If only one is willing, “That's not a marriage, that's a mirage.” (12:14)

Practical Boundaries and the Reality of Addiction, Abuse, and Consequences

• Setting Boundaries:
  • Lysa explains boundaries as a communication tool for self-protection, not a weapon or punishment (18:20; 20:57).
  • Example boundary: “I will not put myself or my children in a vehicle when you're in active addiction. I will not do that, period.” (20:58)
• On Codependency:
  • Lysa shares her codependence struggle: “I need you to be okay so I can feel okay.” (18:20)
• Hard Lessons from Enabling:
  • Working harder for the other person’s change than they do is futile.

Biblical/Theological Exploration—What Does the Bible Actually Teach?

• Old Testament Foundations:
  • Carey and Lysa discuss Exodus 21, pointing to three forms of neglect: material, emotional, and physical (22:58).
  • Divorce certificates existed to protect the vulnerable spouse, not to enable casual separation (25:09).
• Jesus’ Teaching and Context:
  • Understanding “hardness of heart” in light of the wider biblical witness and ancient context (26:25–28:27).
• Avoiding Scriptural Weaponization:
  • Emphasis on compassion and context rather than using isolated verses to shame (30:52).

Navigating Church Culture and Ministry Pressure

• Why the Church is Rigid:
  • “It’s easier just to say, ‘No divorce for any reason. God hates divorce.’” — Lysa (28:32)
  • A rigid stance is often to “protect marriage,” but can be deeply harmful in destructive situations (28:32–30:52).
• Pastoral Care Cautions:
  • Lysa refuses prescriptive answers—stressing informed decisions rooted in wise counsel and God’s leading (35:06; 36:14).

Personal & Physical Cost of Marital Trauma

• Trauma’s Physical Manifestations:
  • Lysa recounts her colon surgery—a direct result, according to her doctor, of prolonged severe stress and emotional trauma (37:34).
  • Quote: “I want you to see what it's costing you—the physical ramifications of whatever it is that you're facing.” — Lysa’s doctor (38:18)
• On the Loss and Scar of Divorce:
  • "I wish divorce was never ever part of my story. I would not wish this on my worst enemy." (36:18)

How to Respond to Others in Crisis

• Unhelpful Responses:
  • Minimizing, oversimplifying (“there’s always two sides”), blaming, or trying to explain away the pain (48:06; 49:30).
• Helpful Presence:
  • The power of simply saying, “I believe you.” (51:38)
  • “Pray more words than you ever speak words.” (50:51)
• For Church Leaders:
  • Don’t rush to judgment, and be wary of weaponizing easy answers (49:30–51:24).

Hope, Healing, and Humility

• “There’s always more help and healing than you’ve got problems.” (53:25)
• Key Ingredients for Marital Restoration:
  • Both partners must possess humility, repentance, and willingness to build (or rebuild) trust; “Trust is the oxygen of all human relationships.” (47:08)
• A Word for Hurting Couples:
  • “If there’s a flicker of hope left for the two of you working through this, work through it.” (46:41)
  • “Your marriage is worth fighting for. But if there is a hardness of heart in one partner, that's where things are going to really unravel.” (53:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lysa, on Weaponizing Scripture:
  “We should never weaponize [Scripture] against other people.” (07:11)
• On Being a Willing Spouse:
  “If they are looking at their marriage and they think their needs hold the primary place, then that's not a marriage. That's a mirage.” (12:14)
• On Physical-emotional Connection:
  “I've never seen with my own eyes the cost of emotional abuse, but I see it now.” — Lysa’s counselor (38:40)
• On Support:
  “The number one most helpful thing is for someone to look at me and just say, ‘I believe you.’” (51:38)
• On Compassion and Theology:
  “A theology that is unlivable is utterly unhelpful…remember the tenderness by which Jesus handled someone who was abused and marginalized.” (30:01)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Why Lysa Wrote About Divorce: 02:01–03:33
• Malachi 2:16 and Misinterpreted Scripture: 04:07–07:26
• Difficult vs Destructive Marriage: 08:58–11:04
• Boundaries and Codependence: 14:03–20:57
• Old Testament Divorce Context: 22:58–26:25
• Jesus' Teaching & Cultural Context: 26:25–28:27
• How the Church Got Narrow: 28:27–30:52
• Avoiding Eisegesis: 31:24–32:36
• When Is The End of a Marriage Justifiable?: 34:52–36:14
• Physical Cost of Trauma: 37:34–39:29
• Ministry Pressure and Divorce: 42:30–44:27
• Responding to Friends in Divorce: 48:01–52:57
• Final Word of Hope: 53:18–54:51

Conclusion & Resources

This episode challenges listeners—especially church leaders—to walk with nuance, empathy, and deeper biblical understanding when engaging with marriage and divorce. Instead of settling for black-and-white answers or weaponizing Scripture, Lysa and Carey encourage listeners to prioritize humility, restoration, and the personhood of those involved.

Resources Mentioned:

• Surviving an Unwanted Divorce
• Lysa TerKeurst on social media: @lysaterkeurst
• Proverbs 31 Ministries: proverbs31.org

Summary Takeaway

Divorce is never easy, nor should it be treated lightly. But the call of Christian leadership and ministry is to balance the value of marriage with the wellbeing of each image bearer. This conversation arms listeners with both theological and compassionate tools to better walk through these valleys—either personally, as leaders, or as friends.

“Your marriage is worth fighting for. But if there is a hardness of heart... that's where things are gonna really unravel. And until that changes, anything is possible with God for sure, but I think humility... there's got to be brokenness, there's got to be repentance.” — Lysa TerKeurst (53:50)