CNLP 771 | Is Your Marriage Difficult or Destructive? When God Releases You From Marriage with Lysa TerKeurst

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast (CNLP 771)

Episode Title: Is Your Marriage Difficult or Destructive? When God Releases You From Marriage with Lysa TerKeurst
Date: December 4, 2025
Host: Carey Nieuwhof (Art of Leadership Network)
Guest: Lysa TerKeurst – President, Proverbs 31 Ministry; Author of “Surviving an Unwanted Divorce”

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the complexities surrounding Christian marriage, divorce, and the biblical, emotional, and practical distinctions between “difficult” and “destructive” marriages. Lysa TerKeurst shares wisdom from her personal story of navigating unwanted divorce and unpacks theological, pastoral, and psychological dimensions that leaders and listeners need to know. Carey and Lysa explore how the church often mishandles these situations, offer grace-based perspectives, and lay out helpful advice for those in ministry or struggling within their own relationship.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Heart Behind the Book

• Reluctance and Responsibility: Lysa admits initial hesitation in writing on divorce, not wanting to be “pro-divorce” but feeling a responsibility to share insights gained from both personal experience and the experts (03:08).
  • Quote: “I don't ever want to give anyone the impression that I'm pro divorce, because I'm not. I'm very pro marriage, but I'm pro healthy marriage.” — Lysa (02:04)
• Accessible Wisdom: Lysa emphasized the need for all women—especially those in Christian spaces—to have access to therapeutic and theological wisdom during crises (03:08).

Biblical Grounds for Divorce: Nuance, Not Black and White

• Misuse of Malachi 2:16 (“God hates divorce”)
  • Lysa outlines how weaponizing this verse causes harm, especially when used simplistically (04:21).
• Context and Correct Interpretation:
  • Lysa explains the translation differences (King James vs Septuagint) and notes the NIV’s newer, more faithful rendering:
    “When a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord.” (06:10)
  • Quote: “We cannot elevate the institution of marriage over protecting the sanctity of life of an image bearer of Christ.” — Lysa (07:34)

Difficult vs. Destructive Marriages: Key Distinctions

• Difficult Marriage:
  • Characterized by two humble, repentant, and willing people working through issues (08:58).
  • “Marriage difficulties, they're quite normal...those are good reasons to go to marriage counseling.” — Lysa (09:19)
• Destructive Marriage:
  • Marked by repeated patterns of abuse, neglect, or unrepentant harm from one spouse, refusing responsibility or change (09:47).
  • “A mistake, which there's grace for, [is different from] a destructive pattern.” (10:44)
  • If only one is willing, “That's not a marriage, that's a mirage.” (12:14)

Practical Boundaries and the Reality of Addiction, Abuse, and Consequences

• Setting Boundaries:
  • Lysa explains boundaries as a communication tool for self-protection, not a weapon or punishment (18:20; 20:57).
  • Example boundary: “I will not put myself or my children in a vehicle when you're in active addiction. I will not do that, period.” (20:58)
• On Codependency:
  • Lysa shares her codependence struggle: “I need you to be okay so I can feel okay.” (18:20)
• Hard Lessons from Enabling:
  • Working harder for the other person’s change than they do is futile.

Biblical/Theological Exploration—What Does the Bible Actually Teach?

• Old Testament Foundations:
  • Carey and Lysa discuss Exodus 21, pointing to three forms of neglect: material, emotional, and physical (22:58).
  • Divorce certificates existed to protect the vulnerable spouse, not to enable casual separation (25:09).
• Jesus’ Teaching and Context:
  • Understanding “hardness of heart” in light of the wider biblical witness and ancient context (26:25–28:27).
• Avoiding Scriptural Weaponization:
  • Emphasis on compassion and context rather than using isolated verses to shame (30:52).

Navigating Church Culture and Ministry Pressure

• Why the Church is Rigid:
  • “It’s easier just to say, ‘No divorce for any reason. God hates divorce.’” — Lysa (28:32)
  • A rigid stance is often to “protect marriage,” but can be deeply harmful in destructive situations (28:32–30:52).
• Pastoral Care Cautions:
  • Lysa refuses prescriptive answers—stressing informed decisions rooted in wise counsel and God’s leading (35:06; 36:14).

Personal & Physical Cost of Marital Trauma

• Trauma’s Physical Manifestations:
  • Lysa recounts her colon surgery—a direct result, according to her doctor, of prolonged severe stress and emotional trauma (37:34).
  • Quote: “I want you to see what it's costing you—the physical ramifications of whatever it is that you're facing.” — Lysa’s doctor (38:18)
• On the Loss and Scar of Divorce:
  • "I wish divorce was never ever part of my story. I would not wish this on my worst enemy." (36:18)

How to Respond to Others in Crisis

• Unhelpful Responses:
  • Minimizing, oversimplifying (“there’s always two sides”), blaming, or trying to explain away the pain (48:06; 49:30).
• Helpful Presence:
  • The power of simply saying, “I believe you.” (51:38)
  • “Pray more words than you ever speak words.” (50:51)
• For Church Leaders:
  • Don’t rush to judgment, and be wary of weaponizing easy answers (49:30–51:24).

Hope, Healing, and Humility

• “There’s always more help and healing than you’ve got problems.” (53:25)
• Key Ingredients for Marital Restoration:
  • Both partners must possess humility, repentance, and willingness to build (or rebuild) trust; “Trust is the oxygen of all human relationships.” (47:08)
• A Word for Hurting Couples:
  • “If there’s a flicker of hope left for the two of you working through this, work through it.” (46:41)
  • “Your marriage is worth fighting for. But if there is a hardness of heart in one partner, that's where things are going to really unravel.” (53:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lysa, on Weaponizing Scripture:
  “We should never weaponize [Scripture] against other people.” (07:11)
• On Being a Willing Spouse:
  “If they are looking at their marriage and they think their needs hold the primary place, then that's not a marriage. That's a mirage.” (12:14)
• On Physical-emotional Connection:
  “I've never seen with my own eyes the cost of emotional abuse, but I see it now.” — Lysa’s counselor (38:40)
• On Support:
  “The number one most helpful thing is for someone to look at me and just say, ‘I believe you.’” (51:38)
• On Compassion and Theology:
  “A theology that is unlivable is utterly unhelpful…remember the tenderness by which Jesus handled someone who was abused and marginalized.” (30:01)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Why Lysa Wrote About Divorce: 02:01–03:33
• Malachi 2:16 and Misinterpreted Scripture: 04:07–07:26
• Difficult vs Destructive Marriage: 08:58–11:04
• Boundaries and Codependence: 14:03–20:57
• Old Testament Divorce Context: 22:58–26:25
• Jesus' Teaching & Cultural Context: 26:25–28:27
• How the Church Got Narrow: 28:27–30:52
• Avoiding Eisegesis: 31:24–32:36
• When Is The End of a Marriage Justifiable?: 34:52–36:14
• Physical Cost of Trauma: 37:34–39:29
• Ministry Pressure and Divorce: 42:30–44:27
• Responding to Friends in Divorce: 48:01–52:57
• Final Word of Hope: 53:18–54:51

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Conclusion & Resources

This episode challenges listeners—especially church leaders—to walk with nuance, empathy, and deeper biblical understanding when engaging with marriage and divorce. Instead of settling for black-and-white answers or weaponizing Scripture, Lysa and Carey encourage listeners to prioritize humility, restoration, and the personhood of those involved.

Resources Mentioned:

• Surviving an Unwanted Divorce
• Lysa TerKeurst on social media: @lysaterkeurst
• Proverbs 31 Ministries: proverbs31.org

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Summary Takeaway

Divorce is never easy, nor should it be treated lightly. But the call of Christian leadership and ministry is to balance the value of marriage with the wellbeing of each image bearer. This conversation arms listeners with both theological and compassionate tools to better walk through these valleys—either personally, as leaders, or as friends.

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“Your marriage is worth fighting for. But if there is a hardness of heart... that's where things are gonna really unravel. And until that changes, anything is possible with God for sure, but I think humility... there's got to be brokenness, there's got to be repentance.” — Lysa TerKeurst (53:50)

Transcript

[A]

The Art of Leadership Network for someone to stand before me and say, yeah, Lisa, but did he hit you? You know, it kind of made me go, well, do you want to see my scar where I'm cut hip to hip and all the way up my middle? Like, is that good enough for you?

[B]

Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Talking about divorce. You know, to be honest with you, when I was a lead pastor, this was always a really difficult conversation. And for people whose marriage broke down, I would honestly say, looking back on those 20 years, I never had the best answer. You know, I was empathetic. I was trying to figure it out, but I'm kind of like, you know, I think I know what the Bible teaches about this. Well, today we sit down and we go into a deep dive on divorce with Lisa Terkerst, and she opens up about the end of her marriage. She offers perspective on the difference between difficult and destructive marriages, the biblical grounds for divorce, and how to help people in a tough marriage. Honestly, I think this is one of those episodes you probably want to send to your entire staff, at least your pastoral staff, because I think it's going to create some nuances. So a lot of you know who Lisa is. She's the president, chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 Ministry and the author of eight New York Times bestsellers, including her latest, which is all about the end of her marriage. So you can connect with [e-mail] or on social media. Lisaturkers. And now for my conversation with Lysa. Lysa, it's so good to be together again. Welcome back.

[A]

Thank you so much, Carrie. It's always an honor to be with you.

[B]

Well, likewise. And I mean, so much has gone on over the last few years. And, you know, you've recently, in your latest book, opened up about the divorce that you have gone through over the last few years.

Why did you decide to write on it?

[A]

Well, I'll be honest. I am in a new season now, and the thought of going back and writing about the divorce, at first I was like, yeah, I don't know that I really want to do that. Plus, I don't ever want to give anyone the impression that I'm pro divorce, because I'm not. I'm very pro marriage, but I'm pro healthy marriage. Here's what really prompted me to consider writing this book. And eventually writing the book, when I was going through my unwanted divorce, I had access to Jim Kress as my therapist and Dr. Joel Munumale because he is an amazing theologian that works for me. And so that gave me unique access. And their educated, wise, and very tender voices were such a gift to me that I felt like I just couldn't keep it to myself. I want everyone to have access to their wisdom. And on top of that, I felt like there was experiential wisdom that I gained along the way.

That I knew could help people. And specifically the women that I interact with all the time at my retreats and my conferences and the women that read my books and send me emails and letters, you know, it's the same questions over and over and over. And I just felt like this is the book that would have really helped me and I felt responsible to write it.

[B]

Well, I'm glad you did too, because, you know, if I'm totally honest with you, probably my answer to divorce was very black and white. Thirty years ago when I started in ministry, it was sort of like, nope, not an option. And I look back on some of those conversations and I wonder what kind of suffering I inflicted on people if they actually followed my advice. And it's, you know, the scripture is clear, but it's not harsh. Does that make sense?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

It's not mean. And yeah, go ahead, you're going to say something.

[A]

Yeah. So, you know, there's usually one verse that Christians know when it comes to divorce. It's Malachi 2 16, although most of us don't know the reference to it, that we just know God hates divorce.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And that verse has been spoken by very well meaning people in an attempt to protect what should be protected. And that is God honoring marriages, healthy marriages. But my friend Leslie Bernick does an excellent job of helping us understand there's a big difference between garden variety difficulties in your marriage and a destructive marriage. Those are two totally different things. And if we take God hates divorce, and we use it in an effort to try to either shame someone, guilt them, or use this verse in any kind of a weapon against them to try to force them into, you know, make sure you don't divorce for any reason ever, ever, ever, then you can do a lot of damage to people. So I think we have to. We have to go back. Okay. What does Malachi 2:16 actually say in some Bible? Well, in some versions of the Bible, it does say God hates divorce in the King James Bible, for example. But the King James Version is where that interpretation, translation originated. But the King James is not the first Bible in order to go Back to the original language. We go all the way back to the Septuagint, which is the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek.

[B]

And some people right now are like, wait, excuse me, can, can you just, I know Joel's, Joel's going to be on show. He's not on this call, but can you, can you, your resident theologian, can you just explain for people? Because I'm not sure that we have a lot of them who listen to a show like this, but who are like, what do you mean? The King James Bible is not the original Bible?

[A]

Yeah. So it's pretty obvious.

[B]

1611, there wasn't a 1600 year gap. So what is that?

[A]

Yes. So the original Bible, Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, that's called the Septuagint. And so that's where we can do a lot of language work. Of course, when we're looking at the original language, we look for the Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek. So I think it's really important that we go back to the original language. And in the original language, a much closer, better interpretation for Malachi 2. 16 is this. When a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord. So now, like when I open up my NIV Bible, that's what it says now, and there's a little footnote and underneath it acknowledges the King James Version's interpretation of God hates divorce. Okay, but let me just say what it says now. When a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord. That's a big difference. To give someone that verse as opposed to God hates divorce. Because when someone's walking through a divorce, especially someone walking through an unwanted divorce, it can easily be misunderstood. God hates divorced people.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or your life is now over.

[A]

Your life is now over. Exactly.

[B]

You're 28 and it's, it's, it's washed up.

[A]

Yeah. And so do I think we need to protect marriages? Yes, I do think we need to protect marriages. But we cannot elevate the institution of marriage over protecting the sanctity of life of an image bearer of Christ. And if there's an image bearer of Christ in a destructive marriage that's just being hurt over and over and over. And I don't mean that the other spouse is making mistakes. I mean when mistakes become destructive patterns of behavior, we have to pay attention to that and we have to stop weaponizing scripture, but rather understand scripture, get into God's word and really understand it before we weaponize it. And we should never weaponize it against other people.

[B]

So, Lysa, you know, my wife Toni and I, we've spent some time together in person and it's no secret that we have not had an easy marriage. We went through some really difficult seasons. We're in a better season now. But like, you know, we're two strong willed people, firstborn, both lawyers, met in law school.

And both with unresolved emotional issues coming into a marriage. And it led to a very difficult decade for us in our marriage where honestly, if it wasn't for her faith, my faith, we wouldn't be together today. What, in your mind is the difference between a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage?

[A]

So a difficult marriage is where two people are humble enough, repentant enough, and willing enough to continue to work on what can happen when you throw two sinners and tell them do life together, you know, raise.

[B]

Which is pretty much a universal recipe for marriage, right? Two sinners do life together. Good luck.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And so when you've got two people willing, humble enough, repentant enough to work on those, then marriage difficulties, they're quite normal. And those are good reasons to go to marriage counseling, to go to marriage conferences, you know, work on the difficulties and differences between the two. When we're talking about a destructive marriage, we're talking about one person in the marriage. Like the two come together. One person in the marriage is seeking the other person's highest good, but this person is not seeking their spouse's highest good. As a matter of fact, they are in repeated patterns that are destructive to that other person. They're destructive maybe to their physical health, their sexual health, their mental health, their emotional health, their relational health. And so we've got to pay attention to those destructive patterns because there's a big difference between a mistake, which there's grace for, and a destructive pattern. Especially when the one who's hurting the other goes unrepentant, they're not repenting, or if they do, it's temporary and they go right back to their bad behavior. When there's not humility there, when there's blaming, when there's all kinds of forms of emotional abuse, gaslighting, when there's verbal abuse, sexual abuse. Like we have to really pay attention to these things and recognize that that's when it's time, time to call in the professionals who are specifically trained to recognize these very complicated and destructive patterns.

[B]

That's an interesting distinction. So you said something when you were talking about difficult Marriages, you said, we're two people. And you said that a couple of times. And the number of times I have sat down with people, whether it's difficult or destructive, and you have one willing person, and the other person is not willing, according to them, not responding, not willing. I will not go to counseling. There's nothing wrong with me. It's all on you. And I think every couple gets there for at least 10 minutes, if not a little bit longer. But when you have that sustained pattern, because you said when two people are willing to work on it. And ultimately that's been Toni's story and my story. She's been willing to do the work. I am trying to do the work. And guess what? We ended up in a very different place. So thanks be to God, 35 years, we're really grateful. What would you say to. And you've got tens of thousands of church leaders listening to this right now, watching it. They're like, well, we don't have two, we have one, and it's me. What do you say to that person?

[A]

Well.

If they are looking at their marriage and they think their needs hold the primary place, then that's not a marriage. That's a mirage.

And I think it is. It's very concerning. When you look at the value that God places on two image bearers of Christ coming together, it should never be the primary needs of one person.

Lording over the needs of the other person. We've got two image bearers of Christ coming together, and God takes that very, very seriously. And so if you are creating a destructive environment for an image bearer of Christ, then that is very concerning behavior. And it's something that needs to be addressed by professionals. And the only hope that that marriage has is for the one who is thinking, it's my needs, everything goes my way or the highway, then that there's a lack of humility there and a hardness of heart that before you even work on the marriage, you've got to work on that individual, because that's really concerning. It's concerning not just from a marriage standpoint, but also from a sanctification standpoint, that's just not the way it should work.

[B]

So if you're the, quote, victim, and nobody really likes victim mentality or mindset, but if you're the person willing to do the work, willing to grow, who is on the other end, in other words, you're the one party that wants to make it better, and the other person is like, there's no problems, what do you do? If you're that person and your spouse is just not responding, what happens then?

[A]

Well, I think there's a couple things that need to happen. One is you can't work harder on another person than they're willing to work on themselves. So your energy and effort is much better spent working on yourself and keeping yourself healthy and stable and sane. And one thing that I really had to work on in that dynamic is boundaries. Now, boundaries can be very complicated. And the minute I say boundaries, some Christians really feel like that's not Christian. Jesus laid down his life. He modeled for us to lay down our life. And I agree with that. Jesus did lay down his life for others, and he modeled for us to do the same. However, Jesus laid his life down to accomplish a high and holy purpose. He did not lay his life down to enable bad behavior to continue. You're not doing your spouse any favors by covering up and preventing them from suffering the natural consequences of their choice. Now, look, when you're in a marriage dynamic, I know it's scary, it's scary for your spouse to suffer consequences of very poor choices because the closeness of that relationship means, chances are, those consequences are probably gonna be consequences that you and your children face as well. And so this is a very complicated dynamic.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by my 2026 church trends. Hey, as you head into 2026, what cultural shifts do you need to keep an eye on as a church leader? I mean, it's a really big question, right? You got your head down trying to do the work from day to day, but there's some big stuff happening, right? You and I both know how easy it is to get caught up into the week to week of ministry. Sermons, meetings, you know, Sunday after Sunday grind. And you just miss what's really going on in the culture. That's why every year I release my annual Church Trends report. And it's to help you see what's next and to lead with clarity. So for 2026, I've identified seven disruptive trends that are shaping the future of the church. And we're seeing Gen Z's surprising surge in church attendance. They're kind of leading it, something very few people expected two years ago. There's a new boldness in evangelism I'm gonna be talking about, and maybe the most concerning of all. Most churches still aren't ready for the AI revolution that's already reshaping ministry and leadership. So those are just a few of the trends that we'll be unpacking this year. The trends are backed by data and I share my thoughts on why it's important and what you can do about it. So this year, I'm doing something new. All the trends are premiering live inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You'll not only get the full 2026 Church Trends Report and the Leader Guide, but also a live interactive Q and A and podcast series. All of that is launching in January. So if you want to be the first to access it, head on over to 2026ChurchTrends.com for free access. Once you've signed up, you'll be in the loop for everything related to my 2026 church trends report. Again, it's all free, so just click the link in the description of this episode or visit 2026churchtrends.com the future of the church is still bright, especially for leaders who see it clearly and who respond wisely. My wife practiced in family law. You take a bath financially if the marriage breaks down.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Everybody does. It's not just one side. You can have the best lawyers in the world, and everyone is poorer, more fragile. It's really. Not to mention the emotional.

[A]

Absolutely. And that's why, you know, I always encourage people, count the cost on both sides, but count the cost on both sides. In my situation.

You know.

I was very much of the mentality that you just. I just did not want divorce to be attached to my name, to my family, to. I didn't want to walk through that. I just didn't. So I did everything that I possibly could. I stayed and gave second chances, third chances, fourth chances, fifth chances. And I think there were noble reasons for that, and I think there were some very unhealthy reasons for that.

[B]

What are some unhealthy reasons for that, Lisa? Like, why would you do that?

[A]

I was codependent. And when I say codependent, and I'm a very independent woman, so it's like, wait, I'm codependent. But what that means is, I need you to be okay so I can feel okay. So how can I make you okay so I can feel okay? Okay. And so you're always trying to make sure that that other person is in an okay place. And sometimes that leads right into enabling bad behavior. Because if this person suffers consequences and they're not okay, and if you can't feel okay and you can't regulate without them being okay, that's where that dysfunctional dance really starts to get to a dangerous place. And so, you know, it's really important at that point to have professionals step in so that they can help you see what you need to see in order to work on what actually needs to be worked on. And in some situations, it's the individuals that are gonna have to work on things before trying to work on the marriage. Because if you've got one person willing to work and the other person is unwilling or incapable of making necessary changes, then trying to force that person to work on the marriage is a mute point, because they've got to do some individual work first. And if they're unwilling or incapable, then you can't leave the spouse that is willing and is capable of working. You can't leave them paralyzed. So they need to work on themselves. And I discovered for a long time I was working harder on him than he was willing to work hard, and he was working on him. So I had to change my energy and my focus to working on me. And part of that was establishing healthy boundaries. It's complicated, you know, when you hear the word boundaries in marriage, because, like, how do you do that? But look, boundaries are nothing more than an effective communication tool to establish what is and is not okay. What you will and will not tolerate, what you do and do not have to give. Now, always check your heart to make sure you're not being selfish as you communicate boundaries. And remember, boundaries are not meant as a punishment. They're not meant as a control tactic. None of that. They're not meant to be manipulative in any way. Boundaries are not meant to shove the other person away. Boundaries are so that I can hold myself together. And they're an effective communication tool. And so when you establish boundaries, you also have to have a consequence. And so that's where you can say, like, I'm going to let you make your own choice. I'm not going to control you, manipulate. I'm not putting a boundary on you. I am putting a boundary on myself. And in the case, let's say, one of the destructive patterns in this marriage is addictions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I am no longer willing to drive anywhere in a car with you when you are active in addiction. It makes me afraid, and I will not do it. And I don't say, okay, I don't do that. I can't say what is and is. I will not put myself or my children in a vehicle when you're in active addiction. I will not do that, period. And as my counselor, Jim Kress, says, adults inform children. Explain. You don't need to stand there and explain. You don't need permission for that boundary. But you need to start establishing what is and is not healthy in the dynamic of that home. Because your kids deserve one healthy parent. And you can't both go down here. It's really crucial. So in our book, Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, you will hear my experiential wisdom based on my journey that I went through. But you also get to hear the therapeutic wisdom from Jim Kress, licensed professional Counselor, and also Dr. Joel Munamali, who has done the theological work to do an entire biblical theology of what the Bible actually does say and does not say about this very delicate topic, divorce.

[B]

Yeah. And that's the thing that's really fascinating to me because Joel took a look at what are the biblical grounds of divorce, And I learned some things that I didn't know, honestly, being raised in the church, being raised a Christian, even being a seminary grad, I'm like, well, the biblical grounds of divorce are everybody knows how to fill in the blank. If your spouse was unfaithful, you are released from the marriage, if you choose to be, and that's about it. Otherwise you grin and bear it. That's not what you discovered. Right. Can you explain what understanding you now have of biblical grounds for. For divorce? Or feel free to substitute another more, I don't know, helpful phrase, but that's the one everybody uses. Biblical grounds for divorce.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think it's important. Let's go all the way back to Exodus and set some context that not only was important for the Old Testament, but it was important when we read verses about divorce in the New Testament as well. Because these verses in Exodus and Deuteronomy, the early mentions of divorce, are setting some context that the people would have understood. They had a very intimate knowledge of these books of the Bible. So they would have very much understood this and carried it into who Jesus was talking to. They would have known this. It was passed down generation to generation. So one of the important passages that Joel and I looked at is Exodus 21. And in there you find some signs of neglect. And there's three signs of neglect that you can very clearly see in Exodus 21. It's material neglect, withholding food, clothing, shelter. Really important. You have emotional neglect, which is withholding, conjugal rights, and any type of cruelty or humiliation. And because we're in a patriarchal society at this point, it's usually the man inflicting this on the woman. Okay. Then you also have physical neglect, and that could be unfaithfulness, that could be adultery, that could be physical abuse. So you have all three of these. You have these three buckets You've got the material neglect, emotional neglect, physical neglect. And the rabbis would have understood that it is really important to go and try to work on this marriage. They would have tried to establish better rhythms and patterns and dynamics within that marriage. But if the man was unwilling and hardened his heart, and absolutely they were continuing these patterns of neglect, the certificate of divorce was there to protect the woman. So this certificate of divorce, the rabbis, if the man had a hard heart and he was wanting to toss the woman aside. See, this was very, very problematic for a woman. If she did not have a certificate of divorce, then most times she would have such shame brought on her because she didn't have the certificate of divorce, then her family would reject her and she would not get the dowry to have financial provision. So basically, if a man casts a woman aside, she has no family to go to, she has no financial provision. She would be completely destitute. And many of these women would have to turn to prostitution to even survive. How horrible, right? So the rabbi would go and instruct the man, if you're unwilling to do this, then you must give your wife a certificate of divorce. You must give her the financial provision of the dowry so that she can physically sustain herself. And with that certificate of divorce, chances are her family would welcome her back in and she would have permission to go on and live, you know, a life. And I think, you know, when we say divorce, we think of it like this whole horrible, evil thing. And look, it is awful. It is horrible and evil what divorce does for two people. I agree, I'm not pro divorce at all, but I do think it's important to go back. Why were these certificates of divorce issued in the first place? It's to protect one spouse from utterly destroying the other spouse.

[B]

How does that reconcile? And this isn't like the theology podcast, but I'm just curious. Cause I imagine most people listening are like, well, didn't Jesus address that in the Gospels where he said, moses allowed you to have a certificate of divorce because your hearts were hard. But I say to you, and then he kind of gave his take. How does that reconcile with Jesus teaching on the issue? Lysa?

[A]

Well, Jesus would have understood and incorporated these knowns. Like, for example, Joel does this great exercise that I live in Jacksonville now and like Ponte Vedra beach, but part of Jacksonville, okay? And I live here part time, part time in Charlotte. If you're in Jacksonville during football season and someone says, how are the Jags doing? Right? I am thinking Jags are the Jacksonville Jaguars football team because I have the context. I live in a place where I have that understanding. I'm not thinking about the sports car called a jaguar. I am not thinking about the animal, like in the wild jaguar, right? I'm thinking Jags football team, because I live here, and I have that context. So the picture that immediately comes up is the picture of the football team. It's in the same way that when Jesus was speaking that the picture that would have come in people's minds, they would have had a cultural context to that. They would have known that there's also provision for material neglect, emotional neglect, physical neglect. It all came together. So I'd love for you, when you have Joel on your podcast, get him to dig into this even further, because, you know, I think it's really important for us not just to take one part of Scripture without combining it with all the proper context so that we have a really good understanding. And again, I say all of this to say, I am not pro divorce. I'm not.

[B]

How do you think we became so narrow in our understanding of divorce in the church?

[A]

I think divorce is very scary, you know, and I think in an effort, a good effort to protect marriage, I think we needed boxes to put certain things in. And it's easier just to say, no divorce for any reason. God hates divorce. It's just. It's much more convenient to do that. And I think for a lot of people, we. We hear divorce and we think, oh, somebody's taking the easy way out. And that may be true in some cases, but that's not true in every case. And we've got to have provision for women who are inside of marriage that are being completely destroyed, and they go to somebody that they trust, another Christian, and they say, like, I'm suffering here. You know, I had a friend who was suffering severe sexual abuse in her marriage. Her husband had not cheated on her. Severe verbal abuse. And when she finally said, enough is enough, like, I am not going to survive this. I mean, she had developed fibromyalgia. She has so many health problems. I mean, it was taking a severe toll. And she was years. She endured sexual abuse, verbal abuse. I mean, it was a terribly destructive situation. And she finally confided in another Christian, and they said three words to her, shame on you.

Never addressing the husband's bad behavior, but only putting shame on her for finally drawing a line in the sand and saying, enough is enough. So another line that Joel says that I think is really important is a theology that is unlivable, is utterly unhelpful. And that doesn't mean we make exceptions to God's word, but it does mean that we remember the tenderness by which Jesus handled someone who was being abused and marginalized in society. And I think it's just really important that we keep the humanity inside some of our teaching, you know, and it's not that we change the scriptures, but we have a better understanding of scriptures so that we don't weaponize scriptures against already really hurting people.

[B]

Well, I think that's the tension. Right. One of my questions for you was how do we know this is an eisegesis? Exegesis is when we draw the meaning out of the text. Eisegesis is when, as you know, I don't need to tell you where we import it. How do we know we're just. Because I've seen this happen with sexuality. I've seen this happen with so many different subjects where, oh, this is my life situation, therefore I'm going back and I'm rereading the text and I'm seeing it completely differently. How do we make sure that that isn't what's happening in a case like this?

[A]

Absolutely. Well, I think that's why we did the hard work of doing the biblical theology. We don't cherry pick these verses, but with Joel's help, we took the law of first mention. We go back to the first time it's mentioned, the first time it's pictured or early mentioned early pictures of this word divorce. And we use that to help set the context so that it's a biblical theology. We trace this through the scriptures so that we're not just hand picking certain things out of context and out of a time period, but we keep it in the context of the full biblical theology. And I'm so grateful that Joel has the training and the ability to be able to do that. And so, you know, look, I don't expect anyone to sit down and spend hours and hours and hours and hours doing the biblical theology of divorce. That's why I'm grateful that this book, Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, will help you do that. And then if you want to really nerd out and do further study, there's tons of footnotes that you can follow to do your own deep study on this. And also, Carrie, you know, I want to fully acknowledge I'm not telling people what to think. I just want to give people a lot to think about.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by glue AI. So which AI tools are your people using? ChatGPT Claude perplexity while the difference might seem Minor. Not all AI is created equal. Your congregation and your staff are using these tools. And as a leader, you got to help them answer the question, is AI contributing to human flourishing or detracting from it? And this is the driving force behind GLUE AI. It's a pioneering initiative to align AI with human flourishing. The Flourishing AI, or FAI benchmark is the GLUE vision for AI that is ethically grounded, mission driven, and values aligned. So rather than measuring AI on speed or accuracy, the Flourishing AI approach evaluates AI tools based on their alignment with the key dimensions of human flourishing, helping leaders steward the question, should we use this tool? So this is one of the ways GLUE is building high tech for a higher purpose. So you can discover flourishing [e-mail] Carrie. That's G-L-O-O.com Carrie. No, that's fair. That's fair for people listening right now, because my guess is a meaningful percentage of people listening to this, particularly by the title, because maybe they don't listen to the podcast. They just saw the subject matter. It's like, click, I'm gonna watch. I'm gonna listen. They're like, okay, where am I on this line? I'm a Christian. We were committed to each other for life five years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, when we got married. It's not going well.

Maybe they had a view that the biblical line for divorce was adultery, and adultery hasn't happened. But it's. What was it? It was material. It was emotional.

[A]

Emotional and physical.

[B]

Physical. So in your mind, and I know every case is different, okay? Every case is different. Please go sit down with somebody who knows you, knows your situation, have a conversation, sit down with a professional. But where is the line for like, oh, this probably this marriage needs to end. Where does that now live in your mind, Lysa?

[A]

You know, Carrie, I think this is meant to be helpful, but not prescriptive. Gotcha. You know, every single dynamic is so different. And.

I like what Jim did in his practice. Jim never said, lisa, it's time to get a divorce.

[B]

So you were never counseled?

[A]

Nope. He never, ever said, lisa, you need to get a divorce. What Jim did is provide the incubator of wisdom so that I could make an informed decision. And I just simply, I'm never going to be. I'm. I'm never going to be the one to go, oh, okay. Divorce. No divorce. Divorce. No. Divorce. Absolutely not. You know, this is. This is such a weighty, awful discussion. I wish we didn't even have to discuss this. I just wish Everyone honored God's design for marriage. That's what I wish, you know, But I do want to provide for people the right information so that they can have the emotional fortitude and biblical wisdom to go before the Lord and to go before. Otherwise counsel and. And to sit with themselves and incorporate all of this together and let the Lord lead you, you know, because.

There'S no good choice here.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

It's not like you get a divorce and then, you know, everything is roses and rainbows. It's just not. And I want to be really, really honest about that. If I could rewrite my story, Carrie, I wish divorce was still. I wish it was never, ever, ever part of my story. I would not wish this on my worst enemy. I just wouldn't. It is. It is definitely the hardest, most hurtful, most horrifying thing that I've ever, ever been through. You know, when. When God puts two people together, you know, and. And you come together in a marriage, the two become one. And the ripping apart of that is devastating. It's devastating.

[B]

I mean, you've talked about it before on this podcast, but, I mean, when you look at the emotional turmoil that you were going through, trying to come to terms with things, fix things, repair the marriage, there was. You mentioned somebody, you know, had fibromyalgia, you know, developed that as a result of that. And the mind body connection is very clear. Your doctor wanted to know what. Whether you'd been in a car accident or something like that or. Or had some kind of physical trauma.

[A]

Yeah, so I found out about my husband's infidelity in February of 2016. And by June of that year.

You know, there were so many ups and downs. He wanted me, he didn't want me. He wanted me. He didn't want me. He was with someone else. He wasn't with someone else. He was with someone else. He wasn't with someone else. You know, that takes a huge toll. And by June of that year, my colon ripped away from the abdominal wall, twisted around itself, cut the blood flow off inside of me, and they had to rush me into emergency surgery. And what my doctor removed from the inside of me, he had to hold with both hands. Like your colon is supposed to be like a small tube. And mine had blown up to the size of almost like an infant. And he took a picture in that surgery, and he gave me that picture, and he said, I don't know what you're going through, but I want you to see what it's costing you. I want you to see the physical Ramifications of whatever it is that you're facing. And I took that picture to my counselor, Jim Crass. And I remember Jim saying, I've never seen with my own eyes the cost of emotional abuse, but I see it now.

I think it's really important. Do we want to give people quick, easy outs in their marriage? Do we want to give people permission to get a marriage to, like, quick, easy outs and, like, give people permission too easily to get a divorce? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Marriage is precious and it needs to be fought for. I will say it over and over and over, but for someone to stand before me and say.

Yeah, Lisa, but did he hit you? You know, kind of made me go, well, do you want to see my scar where I'm cut hip to hip and all the way up my middle, like, is that good enough for you? And so I just think we have to be careful to not minimize what is happening to people who, in my case, I wanted to save my marriage more than anything. And I almost died trying to.

Yeah.

[B]

I have so many places I'd love to go. So I'm just trying to.

Well, Lisa, and thanks for just being so transparent. And I'm so sorry for the pain that you and your whole family have been through. I mean, this is devastating. What were the first signs to you that something was wrong in your marriage?

[A]

I don't know the answer to that question.

Because, you know.

I was very much of the mentality that I needed to speak life over my husband. I needed to honor my husband. And those are great things. They're biblical things. Right. But I think also what was happening in my mind is I minimized things that were very concerning, and I maximized the scraps of love that I was getting. Because trauma is not just what happens to you. It's the story you tell yourself because of what happens to you. And the story I wanted to tell myself is that.

You know, my marriage is gonna stay together. That's the story I wanted to tell myself. And so it's really hard for me to go back and autopsy. What were some of the first signs? I'm sure there were signs, but I also think when you're married for a long time, you give your spouse the benefit of the doubt, and that's a good thing until it's not.

[B]

You know, one of the things I've heard in marriage, and I wonder whether you felt this temptation, but, you know, you do lead Proverbs 31. And I've heard, well, we have to stay together for the sake of the Ministry, it's almost like we have to stay together for the sake of the kids. But when you're in ministry, there is such a unique pressure to being a senior pastor, being, you know, the head of an organization like Proverbs 31. Because you don't just let down yourself, your family, you let down thousands, tens of thousands, in your case, millions of people who have looked to you for guidance about keeping the family together. And now, all of a sudden, you're in the middle of it. What would you say about that pressure to want to make this work for the sake of the ministry?

[A]

Yeah, I would say I definitely felt that pressure.

I didn't feel it.

As much on the ministry side because.

I didn't even have the emotional capacity to, like, fully understand that. It's not that I didn't have the emotional capacity to understand it. I was so focused on my kids and that side of it that it's like, the Lord's gotta take care of the ministry because, like, I'm dealing with a family that's being decimated.

[B]

You know, the pain was that deep that you're like, whatever the concept, I gotta focus on my family.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And. But yes, Carrie, the pressure to, like, not go through a divorce, I mean, it was massive. I mean, the last thing in the world I would ever want to do is lead anyone astray. And at the same time, I knew, like, my kids deserve one healthy parent. And I can't. I cannot let the destructive behaviors of another person bring both of us down. Because if they do, like, the suffering of my kids would have been massive. And so I had to focus on them first. And did I think I was going to be kicked out of ministry? 100%. I knew I would be.

[B]

You thought it was over. Just shut the doors. We're done.

[A]

Yes. But you know what? At that point, it's like, God called me to this, and if he wants me to step away from this, I'm willing to be obedient. Like, I can't. Like, you know, I didn't. I didn't do. Like, I wasn't smart enough to do what's called Proverbs 31 ministries today. Like, the Lord really. He's the one that did this, you know?

[B]

Sure, yeah, I get it. I get that. Totally.

[A]

I felt very confident that if it was time for me to step away, that the Lord would call other people to step right in and maybe even do a better job leading than me. And at that point, it's like, I didn't have a choice. It wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like I could stay in the marriage. That was.

At that point when I accepted the very harsh reality of the death of my marriage. There was not a marriage to step into. It was done. It was gone. And, like, I could stay there and want my marriage, like, forever and ever and ever and ever. But at that point, there was just one person there. You know?

[B]

No, you know what? That's a. And again, thank you for sharing so transparently. I think that's an important distinction, Lisa. Like I would say, and I'm trying to think exactly what it was. I mean, the first question you asked me when we signed on today was, how are you doing? How are you feeling? You know, I got sick for the first time in my adult life earlier this year. And if that pain had continued at such a deep level. Yeah. You're at a point where it's like, God will have to be responsible for the consequences, because this is a really serious thing I'm dealing with. I don't know that our marriage ever reached the point where I'm like, I can't even think about the consequences. That's up to God. This pain is so intense because we always had two people willing to work on it. Two broken, wounded, limping human beings that were like, all right, well, this didn't work. What will work? And we limped through it together. And I think that's an important distinctive, because I can imagine a situation which the pain is so intense that you're like, God. You just have to be responsible for the outcome of that. And I wonder if that is helpful guidance to people. And I think hearing and reading you correctly, if there's a flicker of hope left for the two of you working through this, work through it. Right. That's where you're going to land on this.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, here's. Here's the thing, Carrie. It all comes down to the heart. Two humble, repentant hearts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Both willing to prioritize the love and care of another person. Love is seeking the other person's highest good. If that's the environment, then that's good.

[B]

But still working on that.

[A]

Trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. So you starve a relationship of trust and you starve it to death. And you certainly starve at a vibrancy. And you can't build trust that keeps getting broken. That's an impossibility. And so, you know, is there humility? Is there repentance? Is there willingness? Is there trust? Yeah, I think those are some things to look, for.

[B]

You mentioned that you had. You know, obviously you have the reaction of the world now, thanks to social media, and you led a leap, a very public ministry. But you also had some friends who you would say were not very helpful. So for those of us, maybe our marriage is okay, but we have friends who are going through a really difficult time or have gone through a divorce. What are some not helpful things that Christians do when their friends are going through divorce?

[A]

One of the statements that was said to me.

Was, well, you know, there's always two sides to every story. And what I say to that is, this is not a spectator sport. Why are we picking sides? This is a family getting destroyed on the field. Can we not just go down and offer help where help is needed? Wow. Wow.

[B]

When you think about online, I mean, you probably didn't have the bandwidth to even process the comments that were coming in. And I remember your very honest posts. I think, was it 2017 the first time you kind of named it online? And then there was the renewal of vows, and then that didn't work out, and we don't have to get back into all of that. We talked about this on this podcast before, and you've talked about that elsewhere, but I'm sure over time you still probably get some comments that are unhelpful.

Anything you want. Just because I think sometimes naming it, like, I could see myself saying something like, well, there's always two sides to a story. That isn't necessarily malicious. Sometimes it is, but it is hurtful. And I think we have to be mindful of the fact that some of the things we say trying to be helpful or rushing forward with Christian answers that are easy and at our fingertips is not very helpful. What were some other things that you see or have felt that were not good?

[A]

When people would try to come up with a reason for why this happened.

[B]

Oh, an explanation theologically of why God did this to you.

[A]

Because of reason. Like I remember one of my friends said, I think this all happened because you travel.

Okay. And, you know, because you travel for ministry. And I think, okay, you know what? That is definitely a theory that could be examined. But at that point, we had been in marriage counseling over 75 hours, you know, since the discovery. And my travel was never mentioned one time. And so. But I think what was happening there is that she wanted a reason why this happened to me so that she could have a way to comfort herself, that because she doesn't travel for ministry, that her marriage is protected. And so, again, understandable, but definitely not helpful.

You know, it's not helpful to try to autopsy from afar. You know, why a marriage got to the place that it got, you know.

And it's, it's just, it's not helpful if you are not close enough to that person to see the whites of their eyes turn blistering red over and over and over and over. Then I would suggest praying more words over that situation, that person, that marriage. Pray more words than you ever speak words. Because, you know, if you really want to be utterly helpful, then pray genuine, honest, well meaning prayers do that.

[B]

Judgment and prayer are pretty much mutually exclusive. You can't pray for someone and judge them at the same time. It's very difficult. What were some helpful things friends, family did?

[A]

The most helpful thing is when I finally got the courage to share what I'd been experiencing behind closed doors. The number one most helpful thing is for someone to look at me and just say, I believe you.

I believe you. And you know, I think sometimes people are so afraid to do that because I think they do have this mindset, like there's two sides to every story, you know, And I mean, maybe this was justified because of this and this was justified because of that. And it's like, you know, I think that's to protect from, again, people checking out of their marriages too quickly. But look, Carrie, I don't see long lines of women, Christian women, eager to get out of their marriages. I do think maybe some, maybe they're out there, but that's not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing women who are fighting with everything they've got to save their marriages.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

And so when they're finally courageous enough to tell you what they've kept hidden for so long, please, dear God, just say, I believe you.

[B]

A final word, Lisa. For couples that might be in that difficult season my wife and I went through or are uncovering some of the things that you talked about. Just a final word, maybe make. Maybe it's one of encouragement, maybe it's one of hope, maybe it's one of advice. But final word for couples that are not in the best space right now?

[A]

Well, there's always more help in healing than you've got problems.

So again, if your heart stays soft and your intentions are pure, there is trust there that can be rebuilt or at least there's enough humility to start working on rebuilding trust. Then, you know, with Jesus, there's all things are possible for sure, you know, and.

Your marriage is worth fighting for. But if there is a hardness of heart, my one partner that's where things are gonna really unravel. And until that changes, you know, anything is possible with God for sure. But I think humility, especially the person who has caused the, the inflicted the pain on the other person, there's got to be humility. There's got to be brokenness, there's got to be repentance. You know, when David. Thank you, Carrie. Psalms. And he was crying out to the Lord like, give me, like, change my heart, you know, renew me, make me steadfast. David wasn't asking for God to renovate his heart. David was saying, take out my old cold, hard heart and give me a brand new heart. I think if someone's crying out that prayer, there's hope.

[B]

Well, there's a lot more than we covered in this interview. The book is called Surviving an Unwanted Divorce. It's out everywhere. Lisa, is there a particular website or social profile you want to direct people to who want to learn more?

[A]

Yeah, you can go to proverbs31.org and you can find the book there. Or you can certainly check out my social media, Ethater Kurst. You can check out Joel Mutamali, his social media, as well as Jim Kress as well.

[B]

Lisa, thank you so much.

[A]

Thank you, Carrie.

[B]

Well, I hope that was helpful. And you know what, you're probably going to have like a lot of issues, variations in your theology or your biblical interpretation on this, but I would say the next time someone comes to me and says, hey, my marriage broke up, I'm going to have a more empathetic response as a result of my conversations with Lisa about this. We've talked about it before on the podcast, but this was the most thoroughly theological. So I hope it was really helpful. Speaking about theological, N.T. wright is in the house. The greatest, I would say, living New Testament theologian. Today we talk about, well, his backstory, his calling, what he gave up, his influences, his views on spiritual warfare and demonizing your enemies, and a whole lot more. By the way, if you want show notes to this conversation or any episode, you'll find them these days in my Art of Leadership Academy, you can join over 14,000 leaders. It's crazy, man. That academy has completely blown up this year and would love to have you join it. So we are having some really intelligent, thoughtful conversations in the academy on these episodes and other topics as well. So you can join [e-mail] or simply click the link in wherever you're listening in the podcast app. So Also coming up, J.R. briggs on the Art of asking better questions. Dominic Russo, Sharon Hadi Miller, David Kinnaman, John mark Comer, Les McKeown, Craig Groeschel, and a whole lot more. Thank you for listening. If this conversation was helpful, leave a rating or comment wherever you're listening and don't forget to share it with a friend. We are also on Spotify and YouTube video these days. Check us out. Thanks so much for listening and I hope our time together today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.

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