CNLP 775 | When Church Members Break Your Heart and Your Trust: Sharon Hodde Miller on Resilience and Speaking Into the Culture

Summary

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The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast

CNLP 775 | When Church Members Break Your Heart and Your Trust: Sharon Hodde Miller on Resilience and Speaking Into the Culture

Date: December 23, 2025
Guest: Sharon Hodde Miller – Co-founder and Co-Pastor, Bright City Church; Author; Podcast Host

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Episode Overview

Carey Nieuwhof welcomes Sharon Hodde Miller for a candid conversation about the wounds church leaders sustain when trust is broken, the challenge of resilience in ministry, and how to remain engaged in culture with integrity. Miller shares personal stories of heartache, lessons learned, and practical disciplines for healthy longevity in church leadership. They dive into the relational cost of serving in ministry, the necessity of boundaries, the perils of cynicism, and how to wisely discern when to address cultural issues as a leader—both in the church and online.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pain of Relational Loss in Ministry

[02:16 – 06:53]

• Relational wounds are among the hardest aspects of church leadership, worsened by consumerism and the "revolving door" of church membership.
• Many leaders, including Miller and her staff, cope through escapism or cynicism, which can become threats to their longevity.
• Miller:

  "I very often feel like what I am offering is a goods and service, that the church is a product. I am a product to be consumed or discarded. And that's not obviously what I signed up for." [02:33]

2. Navigating Church Turnover and Trust Issues

[06:53 – 12:34]

• The model of ministry may change over time, but the consumer mindset persists, leading to higher turnover for reasons that are often preferential rather than doctrinal.
• The 2020 pandemic was a crucible for Miller's young church, forcing a clarification of values and the realization that painful losses are inevitable.
• Miller on friendship and vulnerability:

  "Am I going to be rejected again? Are people going to walk away from me again? Like, is it worth opening myself up to the people in my church?" [08:30]

3. Practices for Resilience: Forgiveness, Boundaries, and Expectation Management

[12:34 – 17:07]

• Regular forgiveness practices are essential for emotional health and ministerial longevity.

  "You cannot stay the course if you don't have a forgiveness practice because you are going to be wounded by your people." [11:35]

• Friendship with congregants is possible but requires discernment and realistic boundaries.
  • Miller references Glen Packiam’s concept of a “constellation of mentors/friends”—having different circles with varying degrees of intimacy.
• Adjusting expectations:

  "If I am expecting them to be there for me in the way that only Jesus can be there for me, then I am setting them up to fail and myself to be disappointed." [15:58]

4. Shattered Idealism and Pastoral Heartache

[20:57 – 24:08]

• The trauma of 2020 showed that even shared biblical convictions can fail to hold people together in times of crisis.
• Church relationships don’t always endure, and leaders must accept the reality of loss without cynicism.

  "Some of these people that I love and that I have invested myself in are also going to deliver me some of the greatest heartache of my life." [23:34]

5. Friendship and the Movement of Relationships

[24:49 – 29:56]

• Miller is now more open-handed, viewing relationships as potentially seasonal rather than permanent.
• Discusses Dunbar’s Number—the idea that we all have limits to how many close connections we can sustain.

  "Maybe that friendship didn't end...maybe the friendship just changed." [26:45]

6. Keeping Your Heart Soft: Forgiveness, Solitude, Escapism

[28:02 – 34:21]

• Resisting cynicism and escapism is a continuous struggle.
• Solitude and silence before God are antidotes to numbing pain with distraction.
• Miller’s personal “innocent” escapism:

  "I had started to run to [Disney podcasts] when I did not want to confront what was going on in my life." [31:11]

• Escapist practices can be innocent but become problematic when used to avoid pain or reflection.

7. Co-Pastoring with a Spouse

[34:21 – 40:44]

• Few models exist, and Miller and her husband, Ike, are learning as they go.
• Priority on marriage over ministry:

  "Anyone can lead our church. But I want to be my husband's only wife." [36:01]

• A failing marriage can have devastating ripples beyond ineffective ministry.

8. Coaching Young Leaders: Boundaries vs. Capacity

[40:44 – 47:51]

• The culture of boundaries and Sabbath is improving, but sometimes tips into underestimation of healthy capacity and tenacity.
• Leaders should balance rest and robust work ethic, teaching young staff to steward their work without burnout.

9. Speaking Into Culture: Discernment, Restraint & Spiritual Formation

[47:51 – 54:01]

• Miller no longer reacts to every cultural moment, instead anticipating cycles (like elections) and proactively discipling her community.
  • Example: Teaching through the seven letters to the churches in Revelation, focusing on spiritual formation rather than culture war.
• Self-righteousness is a chief danger for the church:

  "We have amassed a gathering of people who are following us because we are so good at dunking on other people. What that is is just discipling and self-righteousness." [53:15]

10. Online Presence: Listening vs. Broadcasting

[54:01 – 57:34]

• Miller strives to listen widely, including to perspectives different from her own, and welcomes correction especially from her church community.
• She’ll mute or unfollow extreme voices that only amplify division, seeking instead those who reflect while listening.

11. The Chief Cultural Idol: Degradation of the Imago Dei

[59:39 – 62:19]

• The trend transcending left and right: a failure to honor the image of God in all people, evidenced in both heightened rhetoric and policy.

  "A true cultural trend is one that transcends the left or the right... the degradation of the imago dei, the image of God, in one another." [60:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On forgiveness and dealing with wounds:

  "It is not enough to simply acknowledge the wounds. I have to have a way to metabolize them in a healthy way. And thankfully, Jesus has given us that healthy way to metabolize our wounds, which is through forgiveness."
  — Sharon Hodde Miller [09:48]

• On ministry and pain:

  "Pain is what I signed up for. And not something to resent or to try and remove from ministry, but that it is actually the call."
  — Sharon Hodde Miller [66:24]

• On self-awareness and leadership limitations:

  "If I just could get what was in my brain into their brain ... then I could move them toward me. And very often ... I ended up pushing them away."
  — Sharon Hodde Miller [21:21]

• On the danger of self-righteousness:

  "...that is how you’re going to experience it emotionally. And so for me to say, okay, maybe that friendship didn’t end, maybe they didn’t reject me. Maybe the friendship just changed, that was also a helpful tool for me."
  — Sharon Hodde Miller [26:51]

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Sharon Hodde Miller's Practices for Longevity

Forgiveness: Develops a regular, sometimes daily, practice of reviewing hurts and handing them to Jesus.
Solitude: Incorporates small moments of silence and stillness with God throughout the day.
Boundaries: Encourages setting and communicating clear boundaries, especially around communication and rest.
Community: Maintains a balance between vulnerability and appropriate distance in relationships—both inside and outside the church.
Expectation Adjustment: Moves from idealistic to open-handed relationships, holding loosely to outcomes.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Relational Loss & Resilience: [02:16–06:53]
• Church Turnover, Friendship, and Trust: [07:47–13:14]
• Forgiveness Practices: [09:19–12:34]
• Realistic Friendship Expectations: [13:14–15:40]
• Shattered Idealism: [20:57–24:08]
• Changing Categories in Friendships (Dunbar’s Number): [26:07–27:34]
• Keeping Heart Soft: Escapism & Solitude: [28:02–34:21]
• Co-Pastoring & Marriage First Philosophy: [34:21–40:44]
• Boundaries in Staff Culture: [41:22–44:27]
• Healthy Capacity for Young Leaders: [44:37–47:51]
• Proactive vs. Reactive Cultural Engagement: [47:51–54:01]
• Social Media, Listening, & Polarization: [54:44–59:02]
• Cultural Idols & the Imago Dei: [60:08–62:19]
• The Hardest Truth About Leadership: [66:06–66:59]

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Resources & Next Steps

• Sharon Hodde Miller’s New Book: Gazing at God
• Follow Sharon on Instagram: @sharonhmiller
• Join the Art of Leadership Academy for episode notes and further discussion: theartofleadershipacademy.com

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Tone: The conversation is transparent, authentic, and peppered with personal anecdotes and spiritual insight, mirroring the candid, wise, and humble tone of both host and guest throughout.

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Transcript

[A]

The Art of Leadership Network.

[B]

What felt really dicey was this issue of am I going to be rejected again? Are people going to walk away from me again? Like, is it worth opening myself up to the people in my church and landing in a place of realizing, in fact, there is only one safe person, that is Jesus. And so if I'm trying to find people who will never hurt me, I'm going to be looking for them for the rest of my life.

[A]

Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. I hope our time together helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, today we talk about what happens when church members break your heart and your trust. Sharon Hodde Miller joins us to talk about resilience and how to know when to speak into the culture. So I think you're really going to enjoy it. If you're new here, welcome. Delighted you're here. Please hit the follow button. You will never miss a thing. And we love having conversations with you. If you're looking for show notes, we have those in my Art of Leadership Academy. You can join absolutely [e-mail] you get a whole lot more. There's over, well, 14,000 church leaders in there and we connect, we have meaningful discussions. Would love to see you in there. And it's almost Christmas, so maybe it's time to catch up on some listening, too. If you follow, you'll get all of our episodes and you can do that. Just catch up a little bit over the break. I know that's something I like to do. Hey, Sharon Hoddie Miller has a doctorate and loves to lead Bright City Church in Durham, North Carolina, which she co founded with her husband, Ike. She's the author of several books, including Free of Me, Nice, the Cost of Control and Gazing at God. She is the co host of the Resilient Pastor podcast and has been a regular contributor to Hermeneutics Propel. And she reads Truth and has written for Relevant Christianity Today and many other publications and blogs. And now for my conversation with Sharon Hodde Miller. Sharon, welcome back. So good to have you again.

[B]

It is good to be back.

[A]

Yeah. So you've been doing a lot of work with a couple of colleagues on resilience over the last few years. When you look at the church today, where do you see leaders struggling the most with resilience?

[B]

So I don't even have to look at the church today. I can look at myself and I can look at my own leadership and my staff as well. But I think one of the hardest parts of ministry, at least for me personally, is the relationship side of ministry. One of the things I have really been grappling with over the last several years is the ways that consumerism has infiltrated the church. And because of that, I very often feel like what I am offering is a goods and service, that the church is a product. I am a product to be consumed or discarded. And that's not obviously what I signed up for. And so when there's turnover in the church, when there is relational loss, and this was especially high back in 2020, less so now, but I've honestly really struggled with that relational loss, Just how constant it is and how to process that. And I see my staff struggling with that as well. I think for me personally, kind of the two unhealthy ways I find myself trying to cope with it is either through escape. And for me, that's not necessarily like in unhealthy ways. Like, obviously this can take the form of substance abuse or affairs or whatever. For me, sometimes it's just never allowing myself to be silent or still. Like I'm just constantly kind of running from having to confront the pain. Another is becoming cynical. This I especially see with our younger staff is after, you know, having relational loss, being hurt. Sometimes it's just being treated poorly by people that you're serving that you kind of start to armor up. Like, I don't want to be hurt by people. And so I anticipate them hurting me. And so that's something that for me, I recognized several years ago. Now this is going to be the thing that takes me out if I don't deal with it. So definitely relationship wounds.

[A]

It's interesting you would mention that, because if you think about the way the model of how we do ministry, it's been pivoting. And I think you could look back 10, 15 years, secret targeted church, the attractional church. There are good things about that. But probably at our worst, that was consumer Christianity. It's like, do things that attract people and away you go. And we've really pivoted away from that over the last decade. But it's interesting because I think what I hear you saying, Sharon, is the consumer mindset is still very much a part of how people think of church. Is that what I hear you saying or what are you saying?

[B]

Absolutely. And I would be curious, I don't know if there have been any studies on how much church turnover has increased over the years. Because you think back to 100 years ago, everyone just goes to their local church and they stay there until they die. That is not the story anymore. You know, most people have been to many, many churches and some of it in our area, we have a very transient area. And so sometimes it's just people move here or move away. But a lot of it is also very much preferential where it's like, okay, this church doesn't, I don't necessarily disagree with the leadership even, but this church doesn't have the program that I want. And so I'm going to go to the church down the street to get the program that I want. And for me that has really challenged how I, I previously understood. You know, we're really still like how I understand what is church like? It is meant to be this robust community where we grow toward one another and are sanctified in our relationships one with one another. And so I kind of went into ministry bright eyed and bushy tailed thinking this is what it's going to be. And then to experience no, in fact it's going to feel like there's this revolving door of people in my life. And so I have struggled, I'm being really honest with you, I have really struggled to reconcile myself to that.

[A]

We had that moment a few months ago and there have been many over the last number of years where you think about Charlie Kirk and the social media buzz from other pastors was if your pastor didn't talk about it or talking to leaders around a table the week after, who did talk about it, but they didn't talk about it in the right way, they were too this or they were too that or they said too much or they said too little or whatever. And I think the tweet was if your pastor didn't talk about it, it's time to get a new pastor, that kind of thing. I'm not going to point fingers, but there is that intense pressure from all around that you're almost, no matter what you say or what you do, you're going to offend somebody. How have you and your husband Ike, because you co pastor your church, how has that shown up for you in a personal way?

[B]

So that very much was our experience in 2020 when we were leading and our church plant was only 18 months old at the time of the pandemic. Baby, that wasn't great. That was not great.

[A]

That wasn't great.

[B]

But one of the things, it was really interesting for us, you know, at that age, a church plant doesn't really know what it is yet. We were still sort of clarifying our own values and our own identity. And so how we walked through the pandemic absolutely clarified that for ourselves and the people at our church. And so we just naturally had a lot of turnover during that season. But it also, I think for us, it helped us to realize we need to be forward facing with our most important values. Like, like we can't be trying to please everyone in the church. We need to just be upfront about this is what we believe, this is what our mission is, that sort of a thing. And that was very painful. But I know for some pastors it was much worse. We did a conference, kind of a small conference type retreat with Barna and the Resilient Pastor Initiative where we met with pastors from all over the country. And this was a year or two after the pandemic. And I will never forget sitting in that room with pastors. It felt like a grief support group. Just looking around at the pastors. It was stories of having pastored, having raised your family with other people, having been at the same church for 40 years, thinking we are in this for the long haul and then realizing, no, we disagree over this and now we're not in relationship anymore. And so the fallout of that, we felt it, but I think some people felt it even worse just because our church was so young, we weren't losing these decades long relationships. But what I had to personally grapple with, there were a number of things. One was how to be in relationship with people in my church. I know that this is a really age old question for pastors is are you friends with the people in your church? And for me, what felt really dicey was this issue of am I going to be rejected again? Are people going to walk away from me again? Like, is it worth opening myself up to the people in my church and landing in a place of realizing, in fact there is only one safe person that is Jesus. And so if I'm trying to find people who will never hurt me, me, I'm going to be looking for them for the rest of my life. And so wisdom means I need to have relationship with people in my church who it is a wise risk to take to open myself up to. That doesn't mean they will never hurt me. It doesn't mean they'll never disappoint me. It doesn't mean they will never leave. But I cannot be in a church where I am unknown to my people. And so that's something that I have navigated. But the other piece that has been really critical for me in longevity and ministry and navigating this particular Pain point was realizing that I have to have a regular practice of forgiveness. And for me, you know, this is like a daily, sometimes, there's some seasons where, like my rule of life, like my. My weekly, sometimes daily rule of life, part of that is going to be a forgiveness practice where I have to end the day. And for me, the way that looks is, is I will end my day, close my eyes, review the day, be grateful, express gratitude, thank God for anything that I need to thank him for. But then if there is anything that I am holding that I should not be holding, I hand it to Jesus. And that for me, is how I conceptualize of whatever wounds have been sent my way. But I realized it is not enough to simply acknowledge the wounds. I have to have a way to metabolize them in a healthy way. And thankfully, Jesus has given us that healthy way to metabolize our wounds, which is through forgiveness. And so that has been actually something I've been telling more young leaders about, is you cannot stay the course if you don't have a forgiveness practice because you are going to be wounded by your people. And if you don't have a way to process those wounds in not just a healthy way, but a Christian way, it is going to eat you from the inside out.

[A]

Friendship, that's a thorny issue for every pastor. I think we've all struggled with it. Do you have a working theology? You said, I need a few wise friends in the congregation. How deep can you go with them? Can that be 100%? I'm all in. I mean, I have a working theory that I had that I'm happy to share, but I want to hear from you. What is your approach like? Because you're right, it's probably only a matter until someone from that inner circle that you trusted says, you didn't say enough. You said too much. That sermon, this church, boom, they're gone.

[B]

Yeah. One of the things that has been really helpful to me, and I know he has mentioned it before on this podcast, but Glen Packiam talks about how having a constellation of. He talks about having a constellation of mentors. But I. I think it also applies to friends, having different types of friends. And that has been really helpful to me because the fact of the matter is I can open myself up to people in the church, but obviously not about anything confidential that is happening in the church. I think the most I can share is probably with our elders. But beyond that, there's just going to be some things where I'm not going to share every single little thing. And so I do have friends outside of the church. I have one friend in particular who is my, you get to know everything friend. All the ugly stuff that is going on in my marriage, that's going on in my heart. And so I really love that concept. But I'm curious, what is your working theory of friendship?

[A]

Well, my theory, and it's been easier for me because I stepped out of the leap role 10 years ago and out of a regular teaching rotation five years ago. So now I'm pretty much just a volunteer. And my wife's husband, she's an elder now at our church, which is awesome. But my theory has been you can go 90% of the way with a close friendship circle. And I say 90% because there's some stuff you can't share because it's their church, it's confidential. Good example would be you gotta let somebody go and you don't really want to do it. Well, you know, that's behind the scenes with a couple of staff or an elder. But you can't really dump that on your friends or you're really frustrated with the elders. Well, you can't really. And I didn't often have that. But you can't really argue. So it's like 90%. I think you can go with some really good friends. And now that I'm in the role I am, there's a handful. And literally you don't need a lot. Just a handful of that. I feel like I can be 100% transparent with because they're my friends, not because I'm the pastor, because I'm not anymore. I'm just a guy who attends a church and supports church. But now I feel like they can have 100% of an authentic friendship with me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you think of that? I mean, feel free to pull it apart. That was my theory. It's not the right theory for me.

[B]

Expectations has been really huge. Just having realistic expectations because before 2020, again, I had this very sort of utopian vision of the church where, you know, we all do life together and we all know what's going on in one another's lives and we are going to be together forever. I think that was sort of my vision of the church. And I have been disabused of that vision in a number of different ways. But my expectations, because my expectations were not congruent with reality. It really set me up for a lot of heartache and adjusting my expectations to reality. Not in a cynical way, but as I just said that these are human beings. They are not Jesus. And so if I am expecting them to be there for me in the way that only Jesus can be there for me, then I am setting them up to fail and myself to be disappointed. And so adjusting my expectations for me personally, that has been half the battle of just having those human sized expectations for people who I also know to be wise and people who submit their lives to Scripture and who are God. Honoring that has been really helpful for me.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by my 2026 church trends hey, as you head into 2026, what cultural shifts do you need to keep an eye on as a church leader? I mean, it's a really big question, right? You got your head down trying to do the work from day to day, but there's some big stuff happening, right? You and I both know how easy it is to get caught up into the week to week of ministry, sermons, meetings, you know, Sunday after Sunday grind, and you just miss what's really going on in the culture. That's why every year I release my annual Church Trends Report and it's to help you see what's next and to lead with clarity. So for 2026, I've identified seven disruptive trends that are shaping the future of the church, and we're seeing Gen Z's surprising surge in church attendance. They're kind of leading it, something very few people expected two years ago. There's a new boldness in evangelism I'm going to be talking about, and maybe the most concerning of all. Most churches still aren't ready for the AI revolution that's already reshaping ministry and leadership. So those are just a few of the trends that we'll be unpacking this year. The trends are backed by data, and I share my thoughts on why it's important and what you can do about it. So this year I'm doing something new. All the trends are premiering live inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You'll not only get the full 2026 Church Trends Report and the Leader Guide, but also a live interactive Q and A and podcast series. All of that is launching in January, so if you want to be the first to access it, head on over to 2026ChurchTrends.com for free access. Once you've signed up, you'll be in the loop for everything related to my 2026 church trends report. Again, it's all free, so just click the link in the description of this episode or visit 2026churchtrends.com. The Future of the church is still bright, especially for leaders who see it clearly and who respond wisely. This episode is brought to you by my 2026 church trends. Hey, as you head into 2026, what cultural shifts do you need to keep an eye on as a church leader? I mean, it's a really big question, right? You got your head down trying to do the work from day to day, but there's some big stuff happening, right? You and I both know how easy it is to get caught up into the week to week of ministry sermons, meetings, you know, Sunday after Sunday grind, and you just miss what's really going on in the culture. That's why every year I release my annual Church Trends Report, and it's to help you see what's next and to lead with clarity. So for 2026, I've identified seven disruptive trends that are shaping the future of the church, and we're seeing Gen Z's surprising surge in church attendance. They're kind of leading it, something very few people hear expected two years ago. There's a new boldness in evangelism I'm going to be talking about, and maybe the most concerning of all. Most churches still aren't ready for the AI revolution that's already reshaping ministry and leadership. So those are just a few of the trends that we'll be unpacking this year. The trends are backed by data, and I share my thoughts on why it's important and what you can do about it. So this year I'm doing something new. All the trends are premiering live inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You'll not only get the full 2026 Church Trends Report and the Leader Guide, but also a live interactive Q and A and podcast series. All of that is launching in January, so if you want to be the first to access it, head on over to 2026ChurchTrends.com for free access. Once you've signed up, you'll be in the loop for everything related to my 2026 church trends report. Again, it's all free, so just click the link in the description of this episode or visit 2026churchtrends.com the Future of the church is still bright, especially for leaders who see it clearly and who respond wisely. What shattered that idealism?

[B]

Oh, Carrie.

[A]

I'm an idealist, too. And I mean, I got into law, like going to set the world on fire ministry. It's like, come on. And we've all been there.

[B]

So, you know, I feel like we're talking about 2020 a lot for being 2025. But trauma runs deep, man. So I thought going into 2020, that if I just searched Scripture and another person did, too, if we came together around Scripture, if we could see how one another arrived at our position through Scripture, theologically, whatever it is, that even if we disagreed, that we could still come together. And what I learned in 2020 is that is on this side of eternity, just not always true. And one of the things that I. I learned was I would think that if I just could get what was in my brain into their brain, like, I just need to explain it a different way. Like, if I just showed them this passage or this theological concept, or this expert or this wise counselor that I. That I sought, if I could just get what was in my brain into their brain, then I could move them toward me. And very often when I tried to do that, what happened was really the opposite. Rather than moving them toward me, I ended up pushing them away. And so that was one of the things that definitely shattered my understanding of community. And then the other I've already named was this idea, because sometimes people leave not because they're upset with you. Sometimes people leave just because you don't have a program that their family needs, you know, whatever that is. And that. That isn't necessarily a bad reason, but it is still very painful when you have life together. And so that also for me was eye opening that I thought, these are people, that we are going to be in it together for the long haul. And realizing, no, in fact, some of these people that I love and that I have invested myself in are also going to deliver me some of the greatest heartache of my life. And that is what makes ministry so difficult and so painful. And is also the shocking thing about it, is that I had to learn that instead of it being evident to me that that is what I signed up for in the first place, because that's what it means to follow Jesus. So I resented for a very long time something that was plain as day in the Gospels.

[A]

But you didn't quit. You haven't quit. You talked about adjusting your expectations of people. So there's a new person who comes to your church this coming Sunday. They seem awesome. Check out the resume. It's amazing. You're like, whoa, I think we could even be friends. Like, you know, there's just that chemistry that you're like. Like, I saw one of our former elders, and he had moved away, but he was back in town. I mean, when I give him a hug, it was like. Like, just bring it in like, you know, that kind of a friendship. What. What are your expectations now?

[B]

I think my hands are much more open. I would say, like, instead of just running ahead and saying, this is someone that I want to grab onto and hold on for the rest of my life, I think I just have a much more open hands about what our story is going to be. I think I'm a lot slower to write that story as well. I am definitely realizing that some people come into our lives for seasons and then go back out. And one of the things that also really helped me. So there was a lot of people that I would look back on and I would put them in the category of we had a friendship breakup. And I don't know if this is like a girl thing. If this. If guys also think in those terms. I think in those terms where someone.

[A]

I think my wife would think in those terms, I think I would say.

[B]

And they're out of my life. We had a friendship breakup. And I sort of filed that away as that friendship ended. And one thing that really helped me was the concept of. I'm trying to remember the name of it, where you can only have, like, a certain number of people that are intimate with you.

[A]

Is that Dunbar's number? Five? Yeah, three to five.

[B]

Dunbar's number. So this theory that just time in the day, you can only have a very small number of people who you are very, very close to. And then you widen that net out a little bit to a slightly larger, like a dozen people that you see more regularly. And then as you just widen that number out further and further, they are going to be lower and lower touches, you know, in terms of how much time they get in your life, how much you see them, what your relationship is. And what I realized with a lot of these friendships that I had categorized as friendship breakups, that actually isn't what happened. They had just moved from one category to another where they had been in that kind of inner circle, and then they had moved to a slightly more outer circle. That didn't mean necessarily that the friendship was over. It just meant that it had changed. And that was also very helpful for me because I think the way that we tell these stories also shapes ourselves experience of them. And so if you're telling a story, this person abandoned me, this person, you know, misunderstood me, whatever it is, that is how you're going to experience it emotionally. And so for me to say, okay, maybe that friendship didn't end, maybe they didn't reject me. Maybe the friendship just changed, that was also a helpful tool for me.

[A]

How do you keep your heart fully engaged? You mentioned growing cynical and this has been like a lot I've written about this. Like, like it's been a lifelong quest for me to make sure at this age and at this stage, my heart is open. It's not jaded, it hopes, it believes, it trusts. I'm picking up that you've done that. How do you keep your heart open at this stage?

[B]

It's still a struggle. But I already mentioned the forgiveness practice has been really helpful for me. Another practice, because I mentioned there's, there's sort of two ways that we self protect. One is through this hardening of ourselves. And I think forgiveness is one way that we resist that. But the other way is just escapism where you don't even realize. And I think this is a temptation for Christians because we will not even realize we are in pain. Like, we are so quick to say, I'm doing great, I'm doing great, I'm doing fine. Like, it's not a big deal, you know, it's fine, they left the church, whatever, you know, I'm, I'm fine. And I don't think we sometimes realize we're not fine until we've already kind of crashed out. But for me, the antidote to that escapism has been a regular practice of solitude. And by solitude, I don't mean like going away to the mountains for a weekend, even though that is one way that you can do it. But I realized, no, I actually need, throughout my day, I need these, these oases where I can come before God in silence and quiet and say, hey, like, this is what is going on with me and allow him to search my heart and help me to see, like, what am I feeling in this moment? And to know that that is the opposite of escapism. That solitude is how we confront what is actually going on inside of our hearts. And so solitude and forgiveness along with community have been everything for me.

[A]

What does escapism look like for you?

[B]

This is really embarrassing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I am a very big Disney girl and I love Disney. Yeah. You follow me on Instagram. You know this about me. I love Disney. I was just at Disney. I was speaking in Orlando. I went to Disney with my 10 year old. So I love Disney. And one of the things that I do as an expression of that love is I listen to Disney podcasts. I told you this was embarrassing. So I'm just being transparent here with you, Carrie. So I love listening to stuff about the company, about history, about the imagineers. The innovation as a church planter really speaks to me, honestly. So I listen to Disney. There's a bunch of different Disney podcasts. And so I listen to a bunch of Disney podcasts. And this is a very innocent thing. Who would judge me for listening to a Disney podcast? There's nothing wrong with that. However, one day my husband just stopped me and he goes, how many Disney podcasts would you say you listen to? And I had to tally it up. And I said, probably about five. And I'd never thought about it before. But then that same week, this is probably the Holy Spirit, because that same week I was meeting with my spiritual director and processing something unrelated. But I realized there's nothing wrong with Disney podcasts. There's nothing wrong with podcasts generally. There's nothing wrong with listening to audiobooks, whatever it is, whatever your hobby. But I realized that I had started to run to that when I did not want to confront what was going on in my life. If something painful was happening at church, I would get in my van. Instead of just sitting there in silence and taking a moment to pray and process, I would just turn on a podcast and I would just listen to that instead. And so that is one. I share that story because escapism obviously can take really toxic forms, and we need to be aware of that as well. And to name, for instance, if you are finding that you are needing to have a glass of wine or a beer at the end of the night every day, maybe that's a yellow flag, I would say. But it doesn't have to be something like that. It could actually be something really innocent that you are just using to run from what is going on inside of you. And that was it for me.

[A]

No, I appreciate that confession. You know, it's interesting. I had a similar thing. I really am probably undiagnosed OCD and ADD and I had found. And it's better now, but, like, if anything was slightly out of order when I didn't want to confront something, I would just go and like, blow the leaves off the yard or cut the grass when it didn't need to be cut or that kind of thing. And, you know, now I'm much better living in the tension. It's still super neat, but it was like a form of escapism for me or like not dealing with the issue. And often it was a barrier between my wife and I. I. She's like, why don't you just talk about it? And I'm like, no, I gotta go. Blah, blah, blah, Headphones on, you know, let's go do some work outside. And I think we all have. And hopefully you choose a better form than alcohol or drugs or that kind of thing or sex. But, yeah, it's still a problem. Right. And I think we're all there. And, you know, there are very few pastors who've been at it for more than a few years who haven't had some kind of escapist fantasy about some other job that they could do or career they could have or life they could have to escape the pressures. So I appreciate you saying that. What are some of the unique tensions? Because you co lead with your husband, so that's a whole other level of commitment to the gospel because the whole family is involved. So what are you learning about co pastoring with Ike, your husband?

[B]

It has been such a learning curve for us because we don't know many other couples who are truly leading together.

[A]

Where someone isn't the nominal figure.

[B]

Right, right, right. And even among the couples that we do have relationship with, it sort of shakes out differently depending on the couple. I think one of the things I've been searching for is universal principles that apply to all couples, and we are sort of having to figure them out on the fly a little bit. Because I'll meet with a married couple and ask, okay, how. What are your lanes? Like, how. How have you figured out, like, what you do and the other one does? And very often those don't map onto me and Ike very neatly. And so that has been really tricky. But the one thing that I will say that I have learned that I believe in the core of my bones is that as important as the work is that we have been called to, as much as we love leading a church together, is that our marriage, at the end of the day is always more important than our ministry. And one of the ways I first sort of found my way to this is early on, probably the first year or so when we were leading together, I would do this thing where I would be in a conversation with my husband, and I would be thinking, okay, does he need me to have on my wife hat right now, or does he need me to have on my pastor hat, my co worker hat? And so negotiating, like, which one am I in this situation? And I had this moment where I realized I would never do that with my children. You know, I would never say, which hat do they need me to have on right now? The mom hat or the pastor hat? Like, I'm only ever their mom. And so I realized, thankfully, within the first year or so that I only ever have the wife hat with with my husband. I mean, sometimes we are working alongside one another, but at the end of the day, anyone can lead our church. But I want to be my husband's only wife. And just in terms of, you know, we can do, we can make mistakes at church, we can fail in some ways without it shaking people's own faith, their own faith foundation and having these ripple effects for the rest of their lives. But if we don't take seriously our marriage, and our marriage fails because of the ways that it is entwined with church, that will shake the foundation of other people's faith and have ripple effects for the rest of their lives. And so prioritizing marriage has been one of my biggest takeaways, I would say.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Igniter Media. So let's be honest. Keeping your church's visuals and communications fresh week after week, that's tough work, right? And that's where Igniter Media comes in. Igniter has a robust library of ready made church media, from sermon videos to beautifully designed backgrounds that work seamlessly in all church presentation software applications. So whether you're a big church with a design staff or a small church with not a lot of budget, Igniter's got you covered. And for my listeners, Igniter is offering an exclusive discount on any of their memberships. Plus, they're giving you a free exclusive sermon series package valued at $330, which includes a complimentary sermon bumper, title, graphics, worship backgrounds, social graphics, canva templates, and a propresenter theme. Check it [e-mail] Carrie that's ignitermedia.com Carrie, you know what? That's a really interesting thought and you've articulated it in a way that completely resonates, but I haven't quite heard it. And I don't know that there's an answer to this speculation. Welcome. But you're right. If you're just not a very good leader, and I'm not saying you aren't a very good leader, I'm sure you're a great leader. But let's say I'm not a great leader, people are going to come and go for my church and go, he's okay. It was fine. He's fine. If I cheat on my wife or have an affair, that goes straight to people's hearts and they never forget it. And the number of people I've talked to who are like, well, I was really enjoying church, then my pastor had an affair and then I left church For a long time. What is that? Why is that? Because I think you're onto something. That's right. You can make some mistakes leading a church, but you blow that marriage up and it could wound people for. For the rest of their lives.

[B]

I operate, I think that is tied to a much broader philosophy of ministry for me, which is that who you are is more important than what you do. I think that this is what scripture is talking about when it talks about guarding your heart. For it is the wellspring of your soul that who you are, everything else runs downstream of that. And so taking care of your integrity, if that starts to corrode, you can keep up that appearance for a time. But eventually, what is downstream of your integrity, it will eventually overtake it. And when you are married and leading together, I think the same principle essentially applies, that there is a sense in which the church is downstream of our marriage. And so if our marriage is healthy, then the church is going to be relatively unhealthy. But the church cannot be healthy if our marriage is unhealthy. It cannot. And there. There might be a little bit of a lag time there, but overall, if our marriage is toxic, the church is going to become toxic. And so I think it's definitely tied to that, that broader principle that who you are, that that wellspring is more important than what you do.

[A]

So you have some young staff. You mentioned cynicism earlier, but you meet with a lot of young leaders across the country, and I think we all see cynicism as a trend. I've always linked cynicism to knowledge because the scripture does, right? The more you know, the more cynical you get. When you were young, you were happy because you were dumb, right? You didn't know anything, and now you know everything, and you're like, oh, that's human nature. Wow. Now what? So when you work with younger leaders, younger pastors, what are you seeing and what are some course corrections you might give them?

[B]

So one tension that I have been. This is sort of adjacent to your question. It's not fully answering it. But one. One broader tension that I'm seeing is that we have done a really good job of teaching our leaders how to have boundaries. And that has actually helped a lot with that cynicism and that underlying bitterness. Because very often what happens is if you don't have boundaries, if you say yes to everything and then people walk over you is you start to resent them, even though sometimes the reason they walked over you is because you didn't give them boundaries in the first place. And so that's one way that we have a robust culture of rest of Sabbath, of sabbatical. We know what everyone else's Sabbath day is so that we can honor that and not contact them on their Sabbath day. So we talk a lot about the importance of having boundaries and saying no.

[A]

Before you go on, I want to drill down on that because this is a chronic issue for a lot of church leaders. Even if the senior pastor has boundaries, sometimes the staff doesn't. It's like you're the shock absorber. How do you train a church to observe that? Because theoretically you have 17 inboxes, people can DM you any time of the day or night. So if you're a young staff member at your church, how do you make sure that those boundaries get observed by the congregation?

[B]

So we have, we try to communicate really clearly expectations around communication in terms of just timeliness. And if you reach out to someone on staff, you can expect to hear within this certain amount of time. But if it is not an emergency, then you cannot expect to necessarily hear from them if they are on, if it's their day off, essentially. And so I've really encouraged our staff to go ahead and preemptively, especially with your team. Like anyone that you're leading preemptively, let them know. Here are my expectations around communication. If it is urgent, you can call me, but otherwise, if you text or message through Slack, whatever it is, that's going to be more of like a, you have 24 hours to respond. That is going to be more if that's during their day off. But just being clear around communication, expectations and you know, with, with people in our church, I think people generally, if they're sending an email on the weekend, people generally don't expect us to respond. We do a pretty good job of responding by Monday or Tuesday. And some of our staff even have like away messages on their email. So I think just over communicating about expectations has been really helpful for that.

[A]

Okay, no, that's super helpful because it seems to be a chronic problem in ministry. But continue with, you know, cynicism and trying to keep people's hearts up.

[B]

One of the things I'm seeing, and I actually don't see this quite as I would say, actually I don't really see this with my own staff, but something that I'm noticing more broadly with younger people because this, this movement around Sabbath and boundaries is really gaining traction, which is wonderful. Like we should not be chewing through people and spitting them out. That should not be their Experience like we gauge the health of our church by the health of our staff. That is our number one barometer. And so I'm delighted that we are equipping leaders to remember the command to observe Sabbath and that this is how you remember who is in charge here, that it is not you, that this ministry does not rise on and fall on your shoulders, it rises and falls on Jesus's. But I do wonder if we are seeing a little bit of an over correction where we now need to have a conversation around capacity and tenacity and that we are actually. Yeah. That we are in fact, designed to have great capacity, but it just depends on what you have on your plate. You know, if you're putting a bunch of stuff on your plate that shouldn't be there, then you're not going to be as effective. But. But that we actually, you know, this is why Paul uses these metaphors of training. And so I see a little bit of a balance, kind of a counterbalance here, where, yes, we need to be equipping our staff from the top down, modeling healthy rhythms of rest, healthy boundaries, and at the same time helping them to grow their capacity, knowing that as a young person, your capacity actually, like, physically, you can go on three hours of sleep. But I think that a lot of young people have not learned how to maximize the capacity of their days. I think that's something that you learn, and that's something that we, as leaders also need to be teaching them how to steward.

[A]

So you have quite the capacity because you're not just pastoring a local church. You have a podcast, you've recorded, written books, you speak more widely. And one of the things I've really appreciated about you is you speak into the culture, sometimes by what you say, sometimes by what you don't say. You're really one of my favorite followers on social media. I think you do a very good job of trying to figure out what to say or not say in the moment. I'm sure you pay a price for that. How do you determine which issues you're going to speak into? Because you already have, like your church, right? You got to deal with your church. But how do you determine when something's happening in a cultural moment, politically in Washington, sociologically? How do you determine when to speak and when not, and then what to say?

[B]

So five years ago, when we were walking through everything that was happening in our country, we learned very quickly that we were just reacting to everything that was in our culture. And that was very instructive for us because I realized I Never want to do that again. Like, if I have, I can't always know when something is going to happen, but I can know when there's an election cycle, there are certain things that I can know, you know, what it's.

[A]

Going to feel like at midterms and during a big election. Yeah.

[B]

And so we just realized there were some things that we needed to proactively disciple our people in so that when that thing happened, they had already been formed for that moment instead of us scrambling to shepherd them through it. And so one of the things that we did, I guess it's been about a year and a half ago now, when we knew in the year leading up to the election, we went ahead and selected different books of the Bible that we wanted to walk through that we thought would form our people. Well, and one of those was actually Revelation, but not in the way that you think.

[A]

Not the apocalyptic side.

[B]

Okay, yeah, let's play. Let's create community in the church. Let's pretend Antichrist. Yeah, that's what we kept joking about. Every time we started the series. We'd be like, and now this is the sermon where we reveal the Antichrist. No, we look specifically at the seven letters to the seven churches because the context of that is so relevant. Where you have a lot of political strife, that is the backdrop of these letters, where you have people who are being oppressed, they are being persecuted, they are being martyred. Some of the churches that Jesus is addressing, they have literally had people in their church die. And what was so fascinating to me, and you really see this throughout most of the New Testament as well, that Jesus, he acknowledges that. And much of revelation is sort of pointing to there's this other level, this other spiritual realm that is informing these things. But overall, the point of those letters was not. And therefore you need to change the government, therefore you need to change the culture. Not. Don't hear me as saying that those things don't matter. But the. The driving message again and again of those seven letters is that. And this goes back to what I said earlier about who you are is more important than what you do, that your distinct identity as the people of God is your superpower, that is your greatest influence in culture is being this peculiar people, this distinct community, that you are the people of Jesus, and that I have returned to that again and again and again of recognizing the ways that it is tempting for us to sort of get in bed with culture in ways that we don't even realize, and recognizing that as the existential threat, not some threat out there. But, but how we live our lives, what our allegiances are. And so all that to say, to answer your question, my, my first priority is always my church community. And so I am not going to be posting something that's going to be creating chaos in my own community that is going to kick up all these questions where people don't understand. And so that's going to guide how I engage online. But it also means my first priority is my church in terms of thinking, what are the idols of the people in my church? What are the false allegiances of the people in my church? What are the false teachings that they are most tempted by? I want to be naming those things instead of pointing to something out there. But then more broadly online it's a similar principle. I'm thinking, who are the people that are listening to me online? Because not everyone is listening to me. I. There's certain people that are listening to me, some people that are maybe on the fringe, but in terms of who I know reasonably well, they take what I say seriously, they give it weight. And those are the people that I am most concerned with shepherding well. And so I'm not going to be stoking their self righteousness by saying, aren't those people over there that we disagree with, aren't they so terrible? No, I am much more concerned with the people who are following me. What are their idols? How do they need to be corrected? And sometimes the question is also how do they need to be consoled? But because who we are is more important than what we do, I see this discipling of self righteousness where we have amassed a gathering of people who are following us because we are so good at dunking on other people. What that is is just discipling and self righteousness. And if you want to think about the church as a wellspring, once you put self righteousness in there, it contaminates the well. It just poisons the well. And so for me, I see self righteousness as a great peril for the church right now. And that doesn't mean truth doesn't matter. It doesn't mean not having conviction. It just means the posture with which I hold my conviction is going to be one of humility and soberly recognizing my own sin and propensity to self deceive.

[A]

I'm sure we've all found moments where we said something and maybe we breached our own standard. When you look back, because I think you do show good restraint. You're not the first to post usually on something you think about it. I assume you pray about it, but there's probably been times where you've crossed your own line. I know I've done that once or twice where I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have said something or I said the wrong thing or whatever. How do you know in your own spirit that you're not being self righteous? You know my joke, my joke with my wife is my humility is so great. I think I'm the best at it. Like, you know, she always laughs. So yeah, she knows.

[B]

So a lot of this is wrestling with my own sin. You know, I think about Martin Luther King and how one of the things that he warned against was, was hate and how that cannot accomplish what we want to accomplish. And I just don't think someone can say that who has not himself wrestled with the temptations of his own hate. And I feel the same thing where it's me like I'm naming my own idols. I know what they are. I know the, the cultural idols that I have a preference for. And that that is very much like how, how I, I guard what I'm saying is making sure I'm speaking from a place of honesty. Another one is, am I being fair? You know, am I listening to people with different perspectives? And they would say this is a fair description of, of what I believe. But then also, more importantly, I am someone that I have friends across the spectrum and if they reach out to me, or most importantly, if someone in my church reaches out to me and says, I don't understand what this meant. This, this felt like you were saying this and it hurt me, whatever it is, that I am going to be someone who listens to that instead of getting defensive and trying to spiritualize my own sin. So those are three.

[A]

How do you balance the risks of polarization with that call to speak truthfully?

[B]

I do listen more than I talk. I listen a lot. I have tried to curate my social media feed so that I am hearing from people, a wide variety of voices and not necessarily the extremes, but people who we see very differently. But I can still see you are someone who you love Jesus and you submit yourself to his word. And you are trying to navigate this season since sincerely and in a fear of the Lord. And even if we see differently, I can trust that about you and I still want to hear what you have to say. And so I try to make sure before I post that I am listening. Well, that's a huge principle for me.

[A]

Do you find no names that sometimes you have to mute people who are not good for your mental health or mute organizations. I've done that unfollowed mute. It's like, this is not helping me. It's just getting me all enraged, and yet I want to listen, but I'm not sure I need to listen to you right now in this season. What's your thought on that?

[B]

I do. And the reason why is I find. I think this is part of the reason why we are so polarized right now is that we are responding to the extremes of the other side. So we're seeing the extreme of the other side, and then we're extrapolating that and saying this is the entire side. Yeah.

[A]

The extreme gets upvoted. It's the one that gets a hundred thousand likes.

[B]

So if the researcher, if you're on the side, you believe the same thing as this person way over here. And what happens with some of these more extreme voices? I can tell that they are starting to overtake the horizon, you know where that is the only thing I can see from this side when that isn't reality. And I want to be able to hear from people that disagree with me and I disagree with them who are not the caricature of that side, but are deeply thoughtful and humble and worth listening to.

[A]

I wonder, you know, it's funny that you use the filter of listening or the reflection of listening, but I think the people I'm most likely to unfollow, block, or mute are the people who I suspect probably aren't listening. They're just talking.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Do you know what I mean? I would agree with, like, there are voices that are just. I'm out here to get my viewpoint. You listen to me and you pay attention and da, da, da, da, da, da. But there's not a lot of listening. And if they listen, they're listening to refute, to ridicule, to mock, to put down, or to villainize, which is just. And I mean, those are church leaders. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What do you think is our cultural idol right now? You know, I was going to ask you about blind spots or. But you raise. And I mean, I'm such a Keller fan. Keller, you can look at his work. A lot of it was just basically idolatry. Right. Calvin's point that the human mind is a factory of idols, and he would call it the disordered loves, et cetera. But when you look out at our culture in this moment, what are our idols or the chief idol?

[B]

I'm not sure what I would say is the chief idol, but what I will Say concerns me as just a broader cultural trend. So a true cultural trend is one that transcends the left or the right. You, you find it in both places. And one that really concerns me is the degradation of the imago dei, the image of God in one another. This is a problem that I see in both sides. And one of the ways it reveals itself is in the heightened rhetoric that we are using.

[A]

Both sides do that. They diminish the.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. And that's not to do the whole both sidesism, whatever it is, where it's kind of like both are doing it. But I genuinely do think, think that when you are in a culture, we are in American culture, and I think American culture degrades the image of God in people in just so many different ways. And we tend to point to certain expressions of it. For, for instance, you know, pro life, pro choice, all of that is a very prominent example of, of where this plays out. But without getting into the weeds of American politics, just suffice it to say, this is everywhere. And I think that one of the ways we really need to contend for that doctrine, what we believe as the people of God, is to rigorously honor every human being, not just in our policies, but in the ways that we talk about one another and to soul search. Not how are they doing it wrong over here, but are there any ways that we have succumbed to this cultural influence?

[A]

Wow. So your new book is called Gazing at God. And I'm curious, you know, it's a lot of self reflection in there, which I think is great, great. And part of our spiritual formation. Tell us a little bit about it.

[B]

So this book is a follow up. It's a devotional to a book I released about eight years ago now called Free of Me. And speaking of Tim Keller, that book was very much influenced by him. It's a book about self forgetfulness, the freedom of self forgetfulness. But one thing that I realized after I released Free of Me, where I'm kind of naming this temptation of self preoccupation and the ways that it produces insecurity in us, I realized that I needed to do more work around why do we struggle with self focus. And one of the voices who actually really helped me with this, it was a conversation that you had with Chuck De Groat about when narcissism comes to church. And that first of all, I have to plug that book.

[A]

Terrifying, man.

[B]

I read that book. I cannot think of. I can't think of a book that has made me repent more in my life. I was Just hit square between the eyes. But one of the things that he said that was so eye opening for me is that underneath most of the narcissism is shame. You know, there's, there's some sort of pain underneath it. And so I realized you can't just exhort people to focus on God instead of themselves without addressing what is pulling your focus inward. Because it's, it's very similar to if you were to sustain a physical injury. Maybe you sprain your ankle, for example, you're going to give all your attention to that ankle, you're going to make sure you're icing it, you're propping it up, you have crutches, nobody's touching it, you're going to focus on it until it is healed and our souls are that way. If there's any sort of emotional wound that will necessarily in some ways pull your focus inward, you, you are wanting to tend to that pain in some way. And so I realized that if we're not addressing what's going on inside of you, what pain is pulling that focus inward? I've missed kind of a big, big aspect of this journey. And so gazing at God is a follow up where even though it is about this journey of freedom from self, I think people will be really surprised how much attention I give to the self in understanding the self and what is going on. But where I differ from like our self help movement, our self esteem movement, they would say, you know, interior examination, all of that absolutely heal. Because you being your whole self is you at your best. That's what you're created for, essentially. And Christians would say, no, in fact, your purpose is much higher than that. Healing is just one step on the way to purpose. And so gazing at God is that arc where it starts out looking at what is going on in your interior world. What are the scripts that you are speaking to yourself? What are the assumptions that you're making? What are the wounds that are driving you? Let's address that so that we can move back towards what we were created for, which was love of God and others.

[A]

You know, not an easy question to wrap up, but a good one. You know, we're all in process. I'm surprised. I had a big birthday earlier this year and I'm like, you know, you expect to arrive and you never arrive. It's like, ah, here I am again. Right? What's the hardest truth you've had to tell yourself about your leadership so far?

[B]

I would say I have alluded to this already, but that pain is what I signed up for. And not something to resent or to try and remove from ministry, but that it is actually the call. That is a lesson I'm still learning, I would say.

[A]

Wow. Yes, Sharon, you've been so transparent, so honest. I think a lot of leaders are going to see themselves in this conversation. I just want to thank you. Thank you for being transparent. Thank you for being vulnerable. Thanks for being honest and thanks for the lack of spin. It's refreshing. Yeah. Well, the new book is called Gazing at God. It's available everywhere. I do recommend you follow Sharon on social where are you most active these days? TikTok. Instagram.

[B]

Instagram. Sharon H. Miller Yep, yep.

[A]

You definitely want to check it out. Anyway, till next time. Sharon, thank you so much. Always enjoyed talking to Sharon and I hope you did as well. Like I said, you can get show notes for this, including everything we discussed in the episode. At theartofleadershipacademy.com you can join for free. No credit card required. Join over 14,000 other church leaders who have moved from the crowd to the community, from the periphery to the core. We are having some great conversations in there, including detailed conversations about episodes like this where you're not going to find any trolls. It's going to be a lot of fun. Coming up next time, we are going to continue to go through the holidays. We have David Ashcraft coming up and then we are into 2026 church trends and we've got some really fascinating folks joining us for that, including David Kinnaman and we also have John mark Comer, Les McKeown, John Crist, Henry Cloud, Pat Linchione. Coming up in the new year, Craig Groeschel and Dr. Wayne Chappelle and a whole lot more. So make sure you follow wherever you're listening or watching so that you never miss an episode. Thank you so much much for listening. If the conversation was helpful, leave a review or comment wherever you're listening. Don't forget to share it with a friend. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing. Hey leaders, before we go today, if you want to expand your thinking, grow your leadership and get some really relevant, fascinating, curious content about ministry, the future church and other random topics I find helpful as a church leader. Check out my newsletter, on the Rise. It's my once per week Friday newsletter that gets sent directly to your inbox every single week and it's totally free. If you want to start receiving on the Rise along with over 100,000 other leaders every single week visit ontherisenewsletter.com for free. You can sign up today. So when you sign up, I'll send you a sample newsletter right away. You can get an instant taste of what it's like. If it isn't for you, you can unsubscribe at any time. That's ontherisenewsletter.com to get curated content about ministry, culture, the future, and more. One of my favorite things to do every week. I don't want you to miss it.