The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast

CNLP 775 | When Church Members Break Your Heart and Your Trust: Sharon Hodde Miller on Resilience and Speaking Into the Culture

Date: December 23, 2025
Guest: Sharon Hodde Miller – Co-founder and Co-Pastor, Bright City Church; Author; Podcast Host

Episode Overview

Carey Nieuwhof welcomes Sharon Hodde Miller for a candid conversation about the wounds church leaders sustain when trust is broken, the challenge of resilience in ministry, and how to remain engaged in culture with integrity. Miller shares personal stories of heartache, lessons learned, and practical disciplines for healthy longevity in church leadership. They dive into the relational cost of serving in ministry, the necessity of boundaries, the perils of cynicism, and how to wisely discern when to address cultural issues as a leader—both in the church and online.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pain of Relational Loss in Ministry

[02:16 – 06:53]

• Relational wounds are among the hardest aspects of church leadership, worsened by consumerism and the "revolving door" of church membership.
• Many leaders, including Miller and her staff, cope through escapism or cynicism, which can become threats to their longevity.
• Miller:

  "I very often feel like what I am offering is a goods and service, that the church is a product. I am a product to be consumed or discarded. And that's not obviously what I signed up for." [02:33]

2. Navigating Church Turnover and Trust Issues

[06:53 – 12:34]

• The model of ministry may change over time, but the consumer mindset persists, leading to higher turnover for reasons that are often preferential rather than doctrinal.
• The 2020 pandemic was a crucible for Miller's young church, forcing a clarification of values and the realization that painful losses are inevitable.
• Miller on friendship and vulnerability:

  "Am I going to be rejected again? Are people going to walk away from me again? Like, is it worth opening myself up to the people in my church?" [08:30]

3. Practices for Resilience: Forgiveness, Boundaries, and Expectation Management

[12:34 – 17:07]

• Regular forgiveness practices are essential for emotional health and ministerial longevity.

  "You cannot stay the course if you don't have a forgiveness practice because you are going to be wounded by your people." [11:35]

• Friendship with congregants is possible but requires discernment and realistic boundaries.
  • Miller references Glen Packiam’s concept of a “constellation of mentors/friends”—having different circles with varying degrees of intimacy.
• Adjusting expectations:

  "If I am expecting them to be there for me in the way that only Jesus can be there for me, then I am setting them up to fail and myself to be disappointed." [15:58]

4. Shattered Idealism and Pastoral Heartache

[20:57 – 24:08]

• The trauma of 2020 showed that even shared biblical convictions can fail to hold people together in times of crisis.
• Church relationships don’t always endure, and leaders must accept the reality of loss without cynicism.

  "Some of these people that I love and that I have invested myself in are also going to deliver me some of the greatest heartache of my life." [23:34]

5. Friendship and the Movement of Relationships

[24:49 – 29:56]

• Miller is now more open-handed, viewing relationships as potentially seasonal rather than permanent.
• Discusses Dunbar’s Number—the idea that we all have limits to how many close connections we can sustain.

  "Maybe that friendship didn't end...maybe the friendship just changed." [26:45]

6. Keeping Your Heart Soft: Forgiveness, Solitude, Escapism

[28:02 – 34:21]

• Resisting cynicism and escapism is a continuous struggle.
• Solitude and silence before God are antidotes to numbing pain with distraction.
• Miller’s personal “innocent” escapism:

  "I had started to run to [Disney podcasts] when I did not want to confront what was going on in my life." [31:11]

• Escapist practices can be innocent but become problematic when used to avoid pain or reflection.

7. Co-Pastoring with a Spouse

[34:21 – 40:44]

• Few models exist, and Miller and her husband, Ike, are learning as they go.
• Priority on marriage over ministry:

  "Anyone can lead our church. But I want to be my husband's only wife." [36:01]

• A failing marriage can have devastating ripples beyond ineffective ministry.

8. Coaching Young Leaders: Boundaries vs. Capacity

[40:44 – 47:51]

• The culture of boundaries and Sabbath is improving, but sometimes tips into underestimation of healthy capacity and tenacity.
• Leaders should balance rest and robust work ethic, teaching young staff to steward their work without burnout.

9. Speaking Into Culture: Discernment, Restraint & Spiritual Formation

[47:51 – 54:01]

• Miller no longer reacts to every cultural moment, instead anticipating cycles (like elections) and proactively discipling her community.
  • Example: Teaching through the seven letters to the churches in Revelation, focusing on spiritual formation rather than culture war.
• Self-righteousness is a chief danger for the church:

  "We have amassed a gathering of people who are following us because we are so good at dunking on other people. What that is is just discipling and self-righteousness." [53:15]

10. Online Presence: Listening vs. Broadcasting

[54:01 – 57:34]

• Miller strives to listen widely, including to perspectives different from her own, and welcomes correction especially from her church community.
• She’ll mute or unfollow extreme voices that only amplify division, seeking instead those who reflect while listening.

11. The Chief Cultural Idol: Degradation of the Imago Dei

[59:39 – 62:19]

• The trend transcending left and right: a failure to honor the image of God in all people, evidenced in both heightened rhetoric and policy.

  "A true cultural trend is one that transcends the left or the right... the degradation of the imago dei, the image of God, in one another." [60:13]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On forgiveness and dealing with wounds:

  "It is not enough to simply acknowledge the wounds. I have to have a way to metabolize them in a healthy way. And thankfully, Jesus has given us that healthy way to metabolize our wounds, which is through forgiveness."
  — Sharon Hodde Miller [09:48]

• On ministry and pain:

  "Pain is what I signed up for. And not something to resent or to try and remove from ministry, but that it is actually the call."
  — Sharon Hodde Miller [66:24]

• On self-awareness and leadership limitations:

  "If I just could get what was in my brain into their brain ... then I could move them toward me. And very often ... I ended up pushing them away."
  — Sharon Hodde Miller [21:21]

• On the danger of self-righteousness:

  "...that is how you’re going to experience it emotionally. And so for me to say, okay, maybe that friendship didn’t end, maybe they didn’t reject me. Maybe the friendship just changed, that was also a helpful tool for me."
  — Sharon Hodde Miller [26:51]

Sharon Hodde Miller's Practices for Longevity

Forgiveness: Develops a regular, sometimes daily, practice of reviewing hurts and handing them to Jesus.
Solitude: Incorporates small moments of silence and stillness with God throughout the day.
Boundaries: Encourages setting and communicating clear boundaries, especially around communication and rest.
Community: Maintains a balance between vulnerability and appropriate distance in relationships—both inside and outside the church.
Expectation Adjustment: Moves from idealistic to open-handed relationships, holding loosely to outcomes.

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Relational Loss & Resilience: [02:16–06:53]
• Church Turnover, Friendship, and Trust: [07:47–13:14]
• Forgiveness Practices: [09:19–12:34]
• Realistic Friendship Expectations: [13:14–15:40]
• Shattered Idealism: [20:57–24:08]
• Changing Categories in Friendships (Dunbar’s Number): [26:07–27:34]
• Keeping Heart Soft: Escapism & Solitude: [28:02–34:21]
• Co-Pastoring & Marriage First Philosophy: [34:21–40:44]
• Boundaries in Staff Culture: [41:22–44:27]
• Healthy Capacity for Young Leaders: [44:37–47:51]
• Proactive vs. Reactive Cultural Engagement: [47:51–54:01]
• Social Media, Listening, & Polarization: [54:44–59:02]
• Cultural Idols & the Imago Dei: [60:08–62:19]
• The Hardest Truth About Leadership: [66:06–66:59]

Resources & Next Steps

• Sharon Hodde Miller’s New Book: Gazing at God
• Follow Sharon on Instagram: @sharonhmiller
• Join the Art of Leadership Academy for episode notes and further discussion: theartofleadershipacademy.com

Tone: The conversation is transparent, authentic, and peppered with personal anecdotes and spiritual insight, mirroring the candid, wise, and humble tone of both host and guest throughout.