Podcast Summary: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast — Episode 776

Guest: David Ashcraft (Former Senior Pastor, LCBC; President, Global Leadership Network)
Date: December 30, 2025
Theme:
Small Church Dysfunction: David Ashcraft Talks about Growth at LCBC, Succession, and Growing the Global Leadership Summit

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive conversation between Carey Nieuwhof and David Ashcraft about leading through dysfunction in small churches, lessons from scaling LCBC (Lives Changed by Christ Church) to over 22,000 people, the art and challenges of long-term leadership and succession, and his current role leading the Global Leadership Network and Global Leadership Summit. Together, they explore longevity in leadership, navigating opposition, innovation, succession planning, organizational health, and the evolving landscape of both local and global church leadership.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Leadership Longevity: Why Stay?

• David’s Commitment (07:44, 08:38):

  • David describes making an early commitment to not seek out new jobs; instead, he would stay put unless God made it unmistakably clear to go. He attributes much of LCBC’s growth and impact to this decision to outlast challenges and build long-term trust.
  • “We tend to quit too soon. We hit rough waters and we bail and we’re out. Miraculously, it sounds like God’s calling them to someplace greener…it’s always a warmer climate and prettier.” – David Ashcraft, (07:44)

• Influence of Early Role Models (08:38):

  • Observing peers in Dallas who frequently moved for career advancement convinced David of the value in longevity.

2. Surviving and Thriving Through Dysfunction

• Small Church Politics and Control (10:18–14:54):

  • Ashcraft recounts stories of church chairman and members (like “Abe”) creating dysfunction and opposition around music, control, and worship style. Despite years of antagonism, David focused on outlasting detractors rather than immediately removing them.
  • “Abe pretty much every week would come and stuff the boxes before church started with his view on me…that was kind of the fodder.” – David Ashcraft, (12:32, 05:17)

• Approach to Conflict:

  • Rather than asking antagonists to leave, David simply let time and clarity of vision prevail, trusting in the support of the broader church and the eventual drift away of those not aligned.
  • “I didn’t feel like he had that much of a voice…He was friends with a lot of the founding members…I knew he didn’t have the influence he thought he did.” – David Ashcraft, (20:18)

3. Choosing a Direction in Ministry vs. “Blended” Approaches

• The 90/10 Rule in Vision (17:33):

  • LCBC deliberately chose not to pursue a “blended service” but an unapologetic contemporary direction, expecting to really please 90% and risk deeply offending 10%, which provided clarity and momentum.
  • “You cannot keep everybody happy…We’d rather 90% of the people be wildly enthusiastic with us and 10% can be wildly upset.” – David Ashcraft, (17:33)

• Handling Criticism and Measuring Opposition (19:24):

  • Recognizing that even a few loud voices (like “Abe”) can feel outsized in impact, but in reality, rarely amount to more than a handful in the grand scheme.

4. Personal Toll on Family and Spouse

• Impact on Spouses (24:25):
  • David and Carey both reflect that navigating opposition as leaders is often less emotionally taxing for them than for their spouses, who bear the relational and emotional brunt in community settings.
  • “It’s easy for you; you don’t ever go to the grocery store. I go to the grocery store, and I’ve got to see Abe.” – David Ashcraft, (24:45)

5. Innovation and Scaling: Growth Barriers & Multi-Site Model

• Stages of Growth and Inflection Points (27:25, 29:50):

  • Moving to multiple services was an enormous cultural hurdle, but was achieved by trial, reframing, and underselling (“If it doesn’t work, we’ll go back”).
  • Building new auditoriums coincided with large jumps in attendance (e.g., 2,000 to 3,000 overnight).

• Multi-Site Pioneering (31:54, 34:52):

  • After being blocked from further expansion by local authorities, LCBC moved to a multi-site model, sending hundreds at a time to new campuses with a strong emphasis on replicating DNA.
  • “If you’re going to scale, I think it’s got to be video…If you choose to go live teaching, there’s an inability to scale with that.” – David Ashcraft, (34:57)

• Contextual Models for Growth:

  • LCBC developed campus models for various sizes (from 200 to 5,000), ensuring adaptability to rural and urban contexts.

6. Succession: Planning, Humility, and Letting Go

• Developing Internal Successors (49:52, 54:43):

  • Early, deliberate succession planning over 10–12 years with Jason Mitchell, including targeted leadership development and team buy-in, ensured continuity and health.
  • “Time’s either your best friend or your worst enemy. If you don’t start early, then you’re going to be…having to go outside the organization or just take whoever you can find.” – David Ashcraft, (49:52)

• Rules for Post-Succession Involvement (57:35):

  • David took a 12-month break, avoids staff meetings, has no office on-site, and commits to humility—dealing with internal tensions about pride or recognition.
  • “All you have to do is whisper to somebody, and it can spread like wildfire through the church.” – Carey Nieuwhof, (56:53)

7. Sustaining Integrity: Avoiding Failure Traps

• Patterns in Leadership Failures (42:16, 45:01):

  • Ashcraft notes that breakdowns are rarely theological, but rather relational or moral, starting with lack of boundaries or relational accountability, sometimes predicted by “coarse joking” or lax standards.
  • “If there were a recurring pattern…it would be putting yourself in situations that you know you shouldn’t be in.” – David Ashcraft, (42:31)

• Importance of Safe Relationships (47:07):

  • Deep, transparent relationship with his wife Ruth has been his greatest accountability mechanism.

8. Global Leadership Network: Turning Around the GLS

• Refocusing and Financial Recovery (66:40, 76:39):

  • David was brought in to right the ship at the Global Leadership Network: restoring focus on church and pastoral leaders, getting finances in order, and being honest with donors about areas of past drift.
  • “When we had our first donor meeting, I stood up and said, look, here’s where we’ve drifted.” – David Ashcraft, (76:39)

• Event Value in an Online World (70:02–73:55):

  • Despite content being ubiquitous, live events retain significant value due to the communal and immersive experience that can’t be reproduced online.

9. Advice for Content Creators and Leaders (74:25+)

• Bring simple, focused, and immediately applicable ideas.
• Communicate with authenticity—stories and personal vulnerability matter as much as great ideas.
• The best communicators aren’t always the best practitioners and vice versa. Balance both.

10. Surprising Lessons & What Lasts

• Surprise at Leadership Leveling (78:59):
  • Even senior leaders “are not that different than we are”—what matters is steady faithfulness and not “doing stupid things” to harm what God is blessing.
• Legacy is Transferred Values, Not Personal Recognition (62:23):
  • “The only legacy I leave are the character qualities or even statements that get carried from Jason to the next person…and that’s really my legacy, not my name.” – David Ashcraft, (62:23)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Are we done yet? Are we done introducing people to Jesus? If not, then we’re going to have to add a second gathering.” — David Ashcraft, (27:25)
• “If you come into the church and you stay, here’s how we behave at LCBC.” — David Ashcraft, (36:38)
• “Let’s not do anything stupid to mess up what God is doing.” — David Ashcraft, (36:38)
• “It’s never about me. It was always about saying, ‘What can we do to grow and expand LCBC?’” — David Ashcraft, (35:51)
• “You’re never a level five leader until you’ve actually left your organization, and it’s better when you’re gone than when you’re there.” — Jim Collins (paraphrased by Ashcraft), (49:52–50:20)
• “Man, no, we’re not going to do that. The buck stops here. Somebody’s got to say it.” — David Ashcraft, (76:39)
• “The only legacy I will leave are the character qualities or even statements that get carried from Jason to the next person...” — David Ashcraft, (62:23)

Section Timestamps

• Opening & Barna Trends Update: 00:00–05:13
• Small Church Dysfunction & Early Days at LCBC: 05:17–16:46
• Worship Wars, 90/10 Rule: 17:33–20:18
• Handling Opposition and Family Dynamics: 24:00–26:03
• Growth, Multi-site, and Innovation: 27:25–35:51
• Leadership Longevity, Keys to Finishing Well: 36:38–42:16
• Patterns in Pastor Failures: 42:16–47:07
• Friendships, Isolation, and Marriage as a Safeguard: 47:07–49:52
• Succession: Choosing, Developing and Letting Go: 49:52–57:35
• Humility and Pride after Succession: 57:35–61:29
• Transition to Global Leadership Network and Summit: 64:53–68:15
• Live Events vs. Online Content: 70:02–73:55
• Advice to Content Creators: 74:25–76:29
• Financial Turnaround Insights: 76:39–78:47
• Reflections on Leadership and Legacy: 78:59–85:40
• Closing Thoughts and Where to Find David: 86:00–End

Final Takeaways

• Longevity trumps novelty: Staying when it’s hard often precedes breakthrough and impact.
• Vision is clarifying: Trying to please everyone leads to mediocrity.
• Guardrails matter: Accountability, boundaries, and humility protect leaders and organizations.
• Prepare early for succession: Start planning and developing successors well in advance.
• Mission drift is real: Organizations must continually refocus on their core calling.
• Legacy is about values, not names: What lasts are the transferable principles and healthy cultures, not personal recognition.

For more on David Ashcraft, visit GlobalLeadership.org or lcbcchurch.com.

For show notes, resources, and more episodes, visit careynieuwhof.com.