CNLP 784 | Leadership is NOT Lonely! Henry Cloud on Founderitis and Why You're More In Control Than You Think

Summary

The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast – Episode CNLP 784

Leadership is NOT Lonely! Henry Cloud on Founderitis and Why You're More In Control Than You Think

Guest: Dr. Henry Cloud (Clinical Psychologist, Bestselling Author)
Host: Carey Nieuwhof
Release Date: February 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into some of the most pressing leadership struggles today: the myth of loneliness at the top, the dangers of “founderitis” in organizations (especially regarding leadership succession), and why leaders have far more agency and control than they realize—even in times of turmoil or cultural transition. Renowned psychologist, coach, and author Dr. Henry Cloud returns for a candid, insightful conversation built on stories and decades of experience with business and church leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. "It's Lonely at the Top"—Myth or Reality?

• Henry Cloud strongly rejects the notion that leadership has to be lonely:

  • “One of my most hated phrases, it’s lonely at the top. If it’s lonely at the top, you got a problem.” (00:10)
  • Emphasizes the need for strong support structures, mentors, and community around leaders.

• Loneliness as a Leadership Red Flag:

  • If a leader feels isolated, they're likely to make poorer decisions (75:45).
  • “God is not lonely… and if you are lonely at the top, where is your elder board? Where are your advisors? Where’s your community?” (74:23)
  • Relying only on your spouse or inner circle as confidantes is unhealthy and can create an echo chamber (75:48).

2. Perceived Loss of Control & Learned Helplessness (02:01–06:25)

• The "Learned Helplessness" Effect:

  • Leaders often feel paralyzed by external events (e.g., COVID-19, economic crises), leading to a shutdown in creativity and hope.
  • Cloud shares the classic psychological experiment with dogs:
    “They unhooked the lever… [the dog] could leave, but he doesn't—because his brain shut down.” (03:09–04:03)
  • This feeds a negative spiral: personalizing failure, seeing it as pervasive and permanent.

• Contrasts Thriving vs. Stuck Leaders:

  • In every crisis (COVID, 2008 meltdown), it’s those who clarify what they can control that thrive (07:45).
  • “You are ridiculously in charge of your life.” (08:29) – Famous Henry Cloud concept.
    • Leaders must focus on their sphere of influence, not uncontrollable externals.

3. Control, Agency, and the Power of Self-Responsibility (08:43–12:02)

• A Theology of Delegation & Human Agency:
  • Cloud references biblical stories (Adam naming animals, Parable of the Talents) to illustrate God’s model of equipping and delegating.
  • “God is the least controlling leader there’s ever been… we are in, we have an insane amount of control of one thing, which is the fruit of the spirit, which is supposed to be regained self control.” (09:35)
  • Victimhood thinking cripples leaders; focus instead on what you can do with what you have.

4. Excuse-Making & Contextual Self-Sabotage (12:02–16:07)

• Universal Excuses Debunked:

  • Leaders often believe their situation—geography, congregation, culture—is uniquely difficult, making growth impossible.
  • Cloud shares humorous—and poignant—dating stories to highlight how everyone feels their context is hardest (13:03–14:52).

• Mindset Matters More Than Context:

  • While some environments are tougher, adaptive strategies and perseverance matter most.
  • “It’s very similar to when the 12 spies looked over the wall… ten of them had that mentality: it’s too hard. Joshua and Caleb said no, we’re going.” (15:05)

5. Flipping Excuses into Action (18:52–26:39)

• How to Move Beyond Excuses:

  • Leaders cannot have both results and excuses (20:37).
  • Cloud’s prescription: Surrender to God, renew your mind (Romans 12), and confront deep patterns (20:58).
    • “You may be seeing your certain context in that city, and what you’re really seeing is the alchoholic home you grew up in.” (23:03)
  • Leaders often “hoard” failing programs out of fear, which is deeply spiritual:
    “That is a spiritual sickness… we are not the supplier.” (25:33)

• Confidence Through Action, Not Planning:

  • “People want certainty before they move. You will never have that. All you can have is clarity.” (26:41)
  • Self-confidence builds only once you start doing—action precedes assurance.

6. Leadership Succession & The Dangers of Founderitis (33:09–47:57)

• Recurring Succession Crisis:

  • Many churches are hindered by senior pastors who won’t let go, leaving the next generation in limbo.
  • Problem is similar to “family business” dysfunction, where “G2” is perpetually waiting.

• Who’s Really in Charge? Board or Senior Pastor?

  • Cloud’s diagnostic question:
    “Does the senior pastor serve at the pleasure of the board, or does the board serve at the pleasure of the senior pastor?” (36:27)
  • Chronic delays in succession reveal issues of control/fear and lack of true oversight.

• Why Founders Struggle to Let Go:

  • Reasons include narcissism, fear of the unknown, and an identity vacuum post-leadership (47:57).
  • Leaders must recognize “the legacy is not your name, it’s the impact,” and that holding on only caps the potential for hundredfold fruit:
    “Unless the wheat falls to the ground and dies, it can’t produce the hundredfold fruit. And if you can’t let your role die, you’re the ceiling. And you’ll be accountable for that.” (45:36)

Notable Story:

• Jack Welch (former CEO, General Electric) spent 60% of his time mentoring and developing leadership—not 30% as reported.
  • “Building, preparing… we don’t send Navy SEALs out on a mission without a lot of development that’s gone on before.” (43:57)

7. Advice for Next Generation Leaders Stuck Under Founderitis (51:42–53:43)

• For "Timothys" Waiting Too Long:
  • Cloud’s advice: Face reality. If you’re equipped and it’s not happening where you are, go start something new.
  • “That’s not a bad thing. … That’s multiplication anyway. Go start something.” (52:21)
  • The most important asset: Don't go alone—surround yourself with wise counsel and support (53:43).

8. Empowering the Next Generation—Letting Young Leaders Lead (54:46–62:19)

• Stop “Infantilizing” Young Leaders:

  • Entrust real responsibility early; don’t wait until someone’s 50 to hand over the keys.
  • Carey and Henry share stories of being given big tasks young—and how this built confidence and capability (56:25–62:09).

• Practical Growth Pathways:

  • Let emerging leaders lead something small (Jim Collins’ “bullets before cannonballs” method), rotate them through different functions, and progressively give more scope—a process that can be accelerated (59:47).

• Parenting Parallels:

  • Parenting trends that delay maturity (overprotection) mirror what’s happening in organizations and the church (56:34).
  • Leaders must coach, challenge, and let people “drive” before they’re fully ready (60:44–62:09).

9. The Necessity of Relational and Peer Community

• Leaders Need Real Peer Community and Accountability:

  • The healthiest, most sustainable leaders build genuine, confidential relationships—preferably outside the immediate organization or stakeholder system (79:49).
  • “Your community cannot be your stakeholders because the advice they’re giving you, they’ve got a conflict of interest… entropy increases over time. So you gotta get people outside of your system also helping to develop you.” (78:49–79:49)
  • Cites research: 80% of senior pastors lack a safe, confidential, non-stakeholder space to be transparent; similar numbers report significant personal struggles (81:29).

• Effective Boards are Active Overseers:

  • Elders should require and facilitate the leader’s development, wellness, and accountability (83:32).

10. Performance, Accountability, and the Church

• The Church is Not “Exempt” from Performance Culture:
  • Some resist metrics and accountability, but Cloud insists the New Testament model is performance-based (86:25).
    • “There’s no such thing in the New Testament as a non-performance-based culture… you gave [the servant] a position and they’re not producing any fruit, you take that chair away.” (86:25)
  • True grace empowers people to reach the standard, it’s not an excuse to avoid expectations or pruning.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If it’s lonely at the top, you got a problem.” — Henry Cloud (00:10)
• “You are ridiculously in charge of your life.” — Henry Cloud (08:29, paraphrasing a CEO)
• “God is the least controlling leader that there’s ever been… He says, here it is, I’ve equipped you, now go for it.” — Henry Cloud (09:35)
• “You can have results or excuses, but you can’t have both.” — Henry Cloud (20:37)
• “People want certainty before they move. You will never have that. All you can have is clarity.” — Henry Cloud (26:41)
• “The most important thing you can do is, nobody steps out into that journey alone.” — Henry Cloud (53:43)
• “We are delaying maturity at rampant scale… Kids are able to do stuff long before they’re seen as able.” — Henry Cloud (56:34)
• “Your legacy is not your name. It’s the impact.” — Henry Cloud (45:36)
• “If you are lonely as a leader, dadgummit, you are in trouble.” — Henry Cloud (76:44)
• “There’s no such thing in the New Testament as a non-performance-based culture.” — Henry Cloud (86:25)

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Important Timestamps

• "It's lonely at the top" is a sign of a problem: 00:10, 74:23
• Learned helplessness and focus on what you control: 02:01–06:25, 08:43, 09:35
• Difference between thriving and stuck leaders in crisis: 07:45–08:29
• Flipping excuses to action (Romans 12, mindset patterns): 20:58–26:39
• Founderitis and succession dilemma: 33:09–47:57
• Advice to next gen leaders under succession gridlock: 51:42–53:43
• Entrusting big responsibility to young leaders: 54:46–62:19
• Peer support, external development, and the myth of lonely leadership: 74:23–81:29
• Performance-based culture and accountability in the church: 86:25–88:24

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Resources Mentioned

• Books by Henry Cloud:
  • Boundaries for Leaders (93:01)
  • Necessary Endings, Trust, and the new book Your Desired Future (83:44–91:30)
  • Why I Believe: A Psychologist’s Thoughts on Suffering, Miracles, Science and Faith (94:01)

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Final Takeaway

This episode is a masterclass on contemporary leadership challenges—from mindset and agency, to succession and legacy, to the vital need for authentic, supportive community. Dr. Cloud’s practical and deeply insightful advice is both a challenge and an encouragement: as leaders, we must own what we can control, develop ourselves and others continuously, and build the relational support that ensures we’re never truly alone at the top.

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For full show notes, resources, and more, visit: careynieuwhof.com

Transcript

[A]

The Art of Leadership Network. Loneliness is a big problem for leadership and a lot of leaders watch. It should not be okay talk.

[B]

It should not. One of my most hated phrases, it's lonely at the top. If it's lonely at the top, you got a problem.

[A]

Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. I am so glad you joined us and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Welcome to all of you who are listening, regular listeners, brand new listeners, so glad that you are here because we're talking about leadership. It's not lonely. Founderitis. What happens when you get too attached to the organization that you lead and why you have more control over your life than you think? I know we feel like we're in this out of control moment, but we're not. So. Dr. Henry Cloud is an acclaimed leadership expert, clinical psychologist and New York Times bestselling authors. His 45 books, including the iconic Boundaries, have sold nearly 20 million copies worldwide. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. We're also on YouTube for those of you who are listening in. And if you're brand new to this, the best thing you can do if you enjoy it is to share it with a friend. Leave us a rating and review and hit subscribe or follow wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. And now to my conversation with the world renowned Henry Cloud. Henry, it's great to have you back. Good to be here, man. I gotta tell you, we got one of the world's leading experts right now who meets with CEOs, church leaders and you see so much. What are you.

[B]

That guy couldn't come, but oh yeah, I'm subbing in today.

[A]

We got Henry subbing in. What are you seeing these days? Like when you walk into C suites when you meet with senior leaders and we got lots of them watching today, lots of them listening. What are you seeing?

[B]

Oh, gosh, in some senses, when Solomon said there's nothing new under the sun. You've got humanity doing what humans do. And we talk about what those issues are. The human issues really don't change, but what changes is the context. And so you've got so much loss of control. Perceived leaders, loss of control, which is one of the worst things that can happen to a leader because of the brain functions it kicks into is when.

[A]

They perceived loss of control.

[B]

Yeah, perceived. Because what happens is there's a condition called learned helplessness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It comes from. We discovered it a long time ago when they, they hooked. This was when you could still do fun stuff. With animals.

[A]

Animal experimentation, research.

[B]

I'm not suggesting this now, but. But they put dogs on a.

[A]

Not recommended. Not recommended.

[B]

They put them on a little pad with a little one foot fence around it. And there was a mild shock. But if the dog hit the lever, the shock went in. So the dog learns. I have control over my quality of life. Right. What's happening to me, which is a basic law that God's built into the universe called cause and effect. And if you're hungry, you get off the couch and you can solve that problem. You have control of that. Well, what they did was they unhooked the lever and the dogs hit the lever and they're still miserable. And so what happens is they slowly get depressed and they stop trying. The brain actually changes and it goes inactive. So then they remove the little fence and the dog could hop over off the mat, could leave. Could leave. And he doesn't. Because his brain shut down.

[A]

Because he think it's useless.

[B]

Yeah. So you take when you have external circumstances like Covid, for example, where the environment around a leader is changing, that's really affecting their quality of life.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

What happens is slowly the software in the brain changes where they interpret everything as negative about themselves. I'm not good enough. I don't know what it means to be a leader or what it takes. We call them the three P's, they personalize everything. Then it goes subjectively pervasive. It's not just my team, it's the congregation, it's the city, it's the environment, it's the economy, and it's all bad. Everything begins to feel miserable and all bad. And then the third P is, it's permanent in there, it won't get better next month and they lose hope. And so once that happens, then they really begin to kind of shut down. And that leads to a lot of stuff. Well, in today's, you know, back to today's environment, you have, you have so much happening that they don't have control of. Right. That they can really lose focus on what they do have control of that can actually change the outcomes and they get scattered. You know, the focus is a big problem in leaders right now. And then they're trying to leave people that are scattered. And so that's a big one. And you put that together with leading a generation that has a very different experience of what real authority is and all that that means. And then you've got the problems you always had of who is this person that went into leadership. Because it's easy when it's easy, but when it gets hard, then you get down to the essence of that person's makeup. And so what I end up doing is my lane has been in how humans are designed, how they perform and how they lead, and how people are led best. But how the leaders own issues may or may not be helping that.

[A]

Do you see this perceived lack of control more prominently in business or in the church? Or is it the same? It's just a human issue.

[B]

I think it's just. Well, it's a human issue, but the context that they find themselves in is very similar, because a leader has to move a group of people from where they are to where they're going and to try to. You know, there's something called the executive functions of the brain, which do three things. You attend to what's relevant, you inhibit what isn't in getting to the goal, but you got to keep that in a working memory in front of people all the time. Well, the amount of other voices, the amount of input, the amount of scatteredness that everybody in the party is getting every day when a leader is trying to get them, you know, down a certain path, that gets very, very competitive for brain space. And. And that's leading to a lot of problems.

[A]

Yeah. What do you think has made it worse over the last few years? Is it like coming out of COVID Everybody seems like a lot of leaders dropped out, particularly in the church during.

[B]

COVID And what's interesting, if you think about it. And a lot of them thrived.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Not everybody had a bad year.

[B]

No. But who did and who didn't? You know, certainly there are narratives that explain a lot of bad circumstances that some people couldn't have done anything about. But the ones that thrive were the same things we see in every meltdown. If you go back to 08 and the financial meltdown. I did a lot of work on Wall street, and I mean, that was bad.

[A]

It was really bad.

[B]

But the ones that actually were able to get out of the noise and define what do I have control of, that can move the needle, they were the ones that thrived and did a lot of programs on Wall street with getting people out of the funk and having sometimes the best year they'd ever had.

[A]

Well, I've tried this before with you, and I got it wrong. And I'm pretty sure I'm going to get it wrong again, so you can just correct me. One of my favorite quotes of yours, which I will misquote, is, you are ridiculously in control of your life or what's the actual thing you say, the actual.

[B]

Well, actually, I didn't say it. It came from a CEO, okay. Of a global entity who was talking about. I said. He said, well, we didn't hit our results or the quarter or the team or the morale. It was some problem. And I said, well, why is that? And he said, well, because, you know, I brought in this guy who came from another company, he infected the. I said, well, why is that? He said, well, because he. I said, well, why is that? And I kept saying, why is that? And then he looks at me, he looks at me and he says, I guess I am ridiculously in charge, aren't I? Yeah. So now we're sitting with the one person who can do something about this.

[A]

So ridiculously in charge, period. And you think that's a key to thriving? Right? Like I need to realize I am ridiculously in charge of my life.

[B]

You're ridiculously in charge of what you have control of. Now think about this. This is, this is insanely profound. God is the least controlling leader that there's ever been. You talk about delegation on steroids. Go back to the garden.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He said, look, here it is, guys, here's. Here's what I want you to do. He casts a vision. He says, I've equipped you, now go for it. And that's what they're supposed to do. One of my favorite verses in the whole Bible, he tells them to go name the animals. And this is. And the Lord God watched to see what the man would name them. That's why we have a platypus. You go to the parable of talents, he equipped them. And it says he went on a long journey. I mean, God, we're created in his image. And part of image bearing is we're supposed to do what he does. Right? And that. So we are in. We have an insane amount of control of one thing, which is the fruit of the spirit, which is supposed to be regained self control. And once you understand that, then you divide the world into what outcomes do I want and what do I have control of that can affect that. But what happens with leaders is they're looking at everything they don't have control of. And they slowly sometimes begin to take on kind of a victim, powerless mentality. And that causes a lot of stuff that is problematic. So I'm ridiculously in charge of me. What has God given me that I can do something with? And we go from there. You know, when you're in a marriage, you can't control your spouse. But what if somebody's got a wacko spouse, you can control how you respond, how you react, what your strategies are going to be, how you take care of yourself, how you do things to influence them, hopefully for the better, how you might have to protect yourself. You can't control another person. God's omnipotent, we're potent.

[A]

So we have these scripts that run in our mind. One of them, I hear a lot in the church is, yeah, well, that might work at Life Church, but you don't know what it's like in my town, in my community, one of the most unchurched areas, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think, you know, sort of.

[B]

Like first century towns where there are only 12 guys.

[A]

Exactly, exactly.

[B]

Didn't have anything, but they have all.

[A]

These reasons why it doesn't work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In their community. Right, well, you don't really understand. Well, that's the west side of the city, east side.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Et cetera, et cetera. Right. And my answer is, look, if it didn't work in your side of town, then Apple wouldn't sell iPhones and GM and Tesla wouldn't sell vehicles and Netflix wouldn't provide service, but they do and people purchase them. So I don't think it's your town and I don't think it's your area. It's a little different. Right.

[B]

Certainly contexts are different and some are way harder than others. But if you have been called to something and you are called to a particular context and you know that certainly, and you know, part of leadership is trying stuff and it doesn't work and you regroup and we'll see that throughout the New Testament. But, but there's, there's something you can do to do the something that you're called to do and you've got to do that until it doesn't. And then certainly we adapt. But you've got to really be careful of the mentality that says it starts to think this is impossible here. It doesn't apply to leadership, but it's a good example. We were talking about before the podcast here with one of your team about their dating life. I'll never forget this. I was speaking in LA one night and it was open for him and this woman said, what do you think about how hard it is to date in la? I mean, you can't find a spouse in la. I said, why? She said, well, everybody's so transient here. They hadn't been here and there's not networks of extended families and where people know each other and that's what she said. Two nights later, I'm in Chicago. I'm speaking. There's another open forum. What do you think about dating in Chicago? I find it impossible. It'd be a lot easier. And the first woman said, it'd be a lot easier if I were in the Midwest where things were stable. Chicago, the woman says, well, if you were in la, where there's a lot of new people coming, but the people here have been there forever. Come on, really?

[A]

What does that do? You talked about learned helplessness, but yeah.

[B]

That doesn't mean it's not harder in some contexts.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, there are some unchurched areas or.

[A]

Well, the east coast and the Pacific Northwest, it's harder.

[B]

I'll give you a great example. When we lived in la, where I did for a long time, we were in a church there, vintage church that launched in Santa Monica, the place where churches go to not thrive, to die. Nobody could do it right. And they are just booming and doing a great job. They had to adapt their, you know, they don't do it like, you can do it, you know, in Easytown, but. But you can't. You know, it's very similar to when the 12 spies looked over the wall. Ten of them had that mentality. It's too hard there. They're too big. They got all of this. And Joshua Caleb said, no, we're going. God's with us. We can do this. And was it easy? No, it was not easy.

[A]

So if a leader hears themselves in this conversation, says, yeah, I'm the person who's like, it'd be easier to date if I was in Chicago. It'd be easier if I was in la. Would be easier if I was in Texas.

[B]

Yeah, go ahead. I shouldn't say what I was about to say.

[A]

No, now you should say it. What were you going to say?

[B]

It'd be easier to date if you made yourself dateable. That would help.

[A]

Would probably help. This episode is brought to you by GLU Content Studio. So, pastors, let me ask you something. Do you ever feel like Sunday is what you're called to, but Monday is what breaks you right? You preach a message, and then that message is supposed to turn into emails, social posts, small group questions, and next steps. No wonder the content hamster wheel never stops. And that's why GLU built Content Studio. It's designed around one simple idea. One message can power a whole week of ministry. So you drop in. Your sermon could be an outline, your notes or a transcript. And Content Studio helps turn it into summaries on brand social posts, discussion prompts, and practical next steps. So instead of starting from scratch on Monday, you're building from what God already gave you on Sunday. Reclaim your Mondays and extend the impact of your preaching by going to glue.comcarrie that's G L O O.comcarrie this episode is brought to you by Belay. As a pastor, you carry a lot of responsibility, especially when it comes finances. People trust you to steward resources wisely and I know that's something you don't take lightly. But sometimes the spreadsheets and the bookkeeping can start taking more time than the work you're actually called to do. Right, which is leading your church, caring for your community and spreading the gospel. Fortunately, our friends at Belay have a solution. Belay provides vetted US based financial experts who partner with pastors to bring clarity, code, confidence and peace of mind around church finances so you can focus on the mission, not the numbers. Also, they are giving away downloads of their resource the Future of Financial Leadership absolutely free. This guide discusses when AI can save you time, when human insight is non negotiable, and how to balance the two effectively across your financial operations. So to claim your free download, text the word carry my name to 55123. That's C A R E Y to 55123. Reclaim your time and your impact with Belay. So if someone wants to flip the script and they're like, okay, that's me. I'm always making excuses. It's the economy, it's the geography, it's my team, it's, you know, the culture.

[B]

And sometimes that's true. If you realize that what you're trying to do won't work there.

[A]

Sure, sure. You have to change strategy.

[B]

I wouldn't be out trying to sell phones that hang on the wall today. But do people need to communicate? They do. And so a lot of times what you have to do is you kind of have to reverse engineer this thing to ask what is the value that I bring that meets the need that somebody has? Well, if you're trying to build a church, the bottom line of that is you have the best value that there is for the greatest need that there is. Yeah. Okay, so we'll start there. It's just like a phone. Everybody needs to communicate. What I've got to do is figure out how I bring that value in a way that the people can realize it, A their need and B what I have to offer and it may not be the way Life Church does it. That's very different than the way Vintage does it. Vintage is booming primarily because of Alpha. They do an incredible Alpha program there. Incredible.

[A]

So does our church.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, the tactics have to be different, but of course.

[A]

So if you want to flip the script, if that's your default, to make excuses and to not.

[B]

You can't. You've heard this. You can have results or excuses, but you can't have both.

[A]

100%. Yeah. So if somebody wants to say, okay, that's me, I feel owned, how do I make the change? What do they do? What are some steps? If I was in a counseling session with you, Dr. Henry Cloud, what would you tell me to do?

[B]

Well, first thing I would tell you is this is not a new message that you have got to surrender. You want to find God's will. There's one passage in the Bible. Everybody says, I want to find God's will for my life. There's one passage that actually tells you how to do it, and it's Romans 12. The first thing you do is just empty yourself before God. You become a living sacrifice, and you empty yourself, say, God, what I'm doing is not working. I know that you've called me to do it. It's not working. I am emptying myself of all of my assumptions, all of my everything. And I am here, available to you. Where does it go from there? Then? It says, you've got to start to work on how you think about this. Your mind's got to be transformed. And a lot of times we, you know, it says the patterns of this world. Well, one of the patterns, it's not just about, you know, going to movies or chewing tobacco. The patterns of this world have to do with the actual way that humans sometimes believe, like the 10 spies did, that I have no agency that I'm a victim. I mean, it goes back to Adam. You know, God says, what was the woman you gave me if you hadn't given me that woman? What did she do? She blames the serpent, you know, he deceived me. Not my fault. Not my fault. So you've really got to start to look at these real in death patterns. And it's not, you know, thinking. We have a sort of a western view of thinking. If you look at the whole Bible, your thinking doesn't happen just in your mind. What did Jesus say? From the heart, evil thoughts come. Okay, okay. As a man thinketh in his heart, the Bible says, and we get into some kind of models of anthropology that you really have to squeeze some boxes to make that work. But what we know, for example, about thinking is exactly what the Bible says, that it doesn't just come from these conscious thoughts in your brain. It can also come from your body. I mean, if you've got a hijacked autonomic nervous system from trauma, well, you will. One of the symptoms of depression is negative thinking. Now, we also know that negative thinking can affect depression, but a lot of people have never done the work on the healing that they need. You may be seeing your certain context in that city, and what you're really seeing is the alcohol at home you grew up in. Because when those patterns were laid down, that was your whole world. Yeah. You became. And a bunch of other stuff. There's no resources available. For example. And if you look at a hoarder and a lot of leaders are hoarders, it's a big deal. Yeah. I wrote a book called Necessary Endings where people have to prune stuff, but they can't let go of the old ways.

[A]

Right. Not hoarders in the. Like. I have way too much stuff in my house.

[B]

No, I got maybe way too many things my church is trying to do that aren't working. You know, we hoard that kind of hoarders. But when you look at a pruning metaphor in leadership, what you do is. Well, it's old 80, 20, you know, you're doing all these things, but 20% of the results are. Or 80% of the results are coming from this little corner of the ministry. It takes a lot of, you know what. To shut down a bunch of stuff.

[A]

Because I've done it. It hurts.

[B]

It hurts. And people don't like it. People don't like it at all. But you try to get a leader to make a change like that, and you see the hoarder mentality come back, which is, well, but we're getting. You know, there's a few people coming to that. And what does a hoarder say when you say, throw that away?

[A]

I might need that in the future?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That is one of the deepest spiritual sicknesses. That is a spiritual problem.

[A]

Really? A spiritual sickness.

[B]

A spiritual sickness. When.

[A]

Why do you call?

[B]

Because we are not the supplier.

[A]

Might need that in the future, but.

[B]

God, I'm gonna hold on to it. Well, Abraham left her not knowing where he was going. And you don't see anywhere, anybody building anything that had everything they need to. Where it's going to become, what it's going to become. When they started, what they had was. They knew what they had, and they use those and they venture out. And then things begin to happen and we can't do it. You know, that'd be nice if we had the money. Well, nobody ever started anything big with their own money, Dodo.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You go out and you find the donor, you find the investor, you find what we. Well, that'd be great if we had the staff for that. Well, that's what volunteers. What are the great, great ministries do they. It's so you got start on a.

[A]

$48, you know, the equipping of the.

[B]

Saints to do the work of the ministry. It doesn't say staff. And so you just, you. When you hold on to stuff out of fear, instead of stepping into fear and beginning to get moving, then you know, people want. Want certainty before they move. You will never have that. All you can have is clarity. And then as you start to move, the things begin to happen that will give you. Oh, I'm certain this worked. Let's do that again. I'm certain that didn't. You're going to gain. It's sort of like self confidence. People would come to a psychologist and say, well, I just need more self confidence. How can you give me more self confidence? And I always say I can't do that. You get confident by learning how to do something. So if we can get you moving and you start doing something, then we will build self confidence. And I can help you with the things that interfere with that. But you're not going to get it. Before you go. Peter's feet weren't wet in the boat.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So, you know, God, self confidence comes.

[A]

From doing.

[B]

Let'S say that's necessary, maybe not sufficient because a lot of people do. But what's in their brains keep them from succeeding. And that reinforces their failure mindset. So you can, you know, I, I've been a lifelong competitive golfer and, and when you're standing on the 18th tee and you're tied for the lead and the heat is on, you can, you're doing right, but you got stuff in your head that's going to cause you to choke or you don't. And so they got, you know, back to Romans 12. There is a renewing of the mind. And then what it follows from that, it's really, it's a fascinating passage. What follows is, he says, and then you will be able to ascertain the perfect will of God. All right, now watch this. Then what it says is immediately, don't think more highly of yourself than you ought. I should look like life church. No, you should go to coffee at Denny's with one God and cast your vision, and then it goes from there. Figure out what your gifts are, and then with the grace of God has given you, you begin to utilize this. That path is. It's almost like whoever wrote the Bible understood the brain. I mean, that is just the way that human functioning happens. But people want the end before the beginning, and they don't want to do the work on themselves that are going to produce the end.

[A]

Well, and, I mean, I'm a huge fan of Craig and Life Church, as any regular listener would know. But Life Church didn't set out to become 45 campuses, you know, like it was the furthest thing from Craig's mind. It's like, I hope I don't get fired, and I hope we reach people, right? And then this happens.

[B]

But if you study Craig, I've done a lot of events with him, and Craig has such incredible. From a neuroscience perspective, such incredible. Has built into the organization, such incredible executive functions. The rolling out of resources, time, energy and money on a path, on a plan, with accountability, with measurement, with adaptivity, all of that kind of stuff. It's just how God designed everything. And when people think. And here's another big problem. You're asking why pastors have that or leaders have that internal experience. Well, you know, I'm not Life Church. You ever watch a Netflix movie? You're in a rom com, right? And they fall in love. And you know, he's starting out, and then you get about 20 minutes into it, and all of a sudden he goes to the bathroom. His phone's left on the coffee table. It lights up. She looks down, and it's his ex texting him. She all of a sudden goes, he's cheating on me. And she runs out, calls her sister, moves back to Minnesota, and now she's in a Hallmark movie, all depressed, right? And he's going, what happened? What happened? This was the one. And all of this, well, if you froze, you know, you hit pause, you're looking at a square on the screen, right? Where it's all gone to hell. That's one scene in the movie. You keep playing the movie. And then he hears that she's in Minnesota, and his aunt says, I got a flower shop there. Will you come? Act like you're working. And it ends up in a great place. Here's the problem. People look at some big successful ministry. You're looking at one frame in the movie. You're not seeing the frames where it was probably worse than what you're in right now.

[A]

Yeah. And close to, like, not working and this didn't happen. Right. Like, it's always the jagged.

[B]

Yeah. And what did God do with the, with the Israelites when they're going to take the land? Don't try to think you're gonna all get it at once. Take a little at a time. Because you gotta get strong enough from what that provides you and the skills that provides you to take the next step. So don't think more highly of yourself than you ought. It's back to the scriptures. One step at a time.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're leading a church and you know there's more in you, I believe there's more in you. And more ahead for your team. I want to personally invite you to something special. September 21st, 23rd, 2026. I'm hosting the Art of Leadership Live this year. It's in Nashville, Tennessee. This isn't a conference where you just sit in a chair for eight hours, listen to talking heads, take notes, and hope something sticks. This is highly interactive. It's practical. It's intentionally designed to help you make real progress on the leadership challenges you're facing right now. So what do we do? Well, we combine focused teaching, meaningful conversations with other leaders, and built in space to think, think, process, and actually apply what you're learning. So you don't just leave inspired. You leave with clarity and next steps and you do it in community. So I'll tell you this, the leaders who gathered last year absolutely blew me away. The depth of the conversations. We have a lot of conversations. The honesty in the room, the momentum people left with, that's what makes this event so special. So I can't wait to do it again. This time we're in Nashville. One important note, super early bird pricing is almost gone. So if you've been thinking about applying, you have to apply to get in. Now's the time. Once it expires, rates go up for Good. So visit theartofleadershiplive.com to secure the very best pricing. Again, that's theartofleadershiplive dot com I would love to see you in Nashville this September. I'm so glad you mentioned necessary endings. I refer leaders to that book all the time. It's one of my favorites. You've written some great books. One of the problems that I hear of regularly, and I don't know whether this is just a season we're in, but in conversations I'm having with pastors in DMs, I get, here's the scenario, all right, senior pastor, late 50s, mid-60s, finds a successor in his 30s or 40s, says, you know what, you're the person, I'm going to hand things over to you. So we're going to do a succession. And this is crazy. Often it's like a five to seven year plan, but then what happens is senior pastor, okay, It'll happen in 2026, but then gets cold feet and then says, all right, I'm going to do this for another year or so. So you just sit tight. And the number of next gen leaders who come to me with this scenario, it's got to be statistically significant to the point where the senior pastor, the OG so to speak, can't go, isn't going, and they're just left dangling and some of them end up leaving. Some of them are like, well, he said one more year, two more years. Should I just hang on in that scenario? I want you to break that one down a little bit because it's such a frequent flyer issue. Now let's talk about the senior pastor who says, I'm going to leave at some point. You're the next gen leader. I'm trusting it too. And then is all fuzzy about the timeline and keeps extending it. What would you say to that senior pastor? Like, what is going on in his or her mind about not relinquishing leadership?

[B]

Well, the first thing I would say is, where is your board?

[A]

Yes, good question. Good question. Where's your board?

[B]

There's a term in the Bible called overseer. You know, you walk into a church squabble with the board and certainly the senior pastor is going to be in there. One of the first things I ask and I do my little three by five card thing where I say, okay, I want everybody to answer this question and then we're going to share our answers. Does the senior pastor serve at the pleasure of the board or does the board serve at the pleasure of the senior pastor? And you will get different answers and then I'll look at them and say, any questions while we have a problem here?

[A]

And I think it's the second scenario a lot in those cases where the board is just whatever the senior pastor wants.

[B]

And you just said it, he's decided to hold on. So what we've got in a lot of scenarios is very similar to a family business, right? And so you got a founder, you know, mom or dad built this company. And now you got G2 coming in. Well, G2, you know, now they're 40 years old. And there's this ceiling over them. And it's a human dynamic. You know, God is built into the created order. There's generational transfers, leadership of power. You see it all the way through the scriptures. It's a fascinating passage in Galatians 4 where Paul says, when we were children, we were under guardians and managers until the date set by the Father. And then later they invented the bar mitzvah and the bat mitzvah. And everybody's got this rite of passage, but the two terms there are guardians and managers. And so if somebody. If that path has not been set where there's going to be a bar mitzvah one day, and now you are, you know, an adult. Yeah. What the problem there is, you. You've got a vague situation where there is no path that's been laid out. What he said was way back, you're going to be the guy. Well, that might be a problem in and of itself, because first of all, did he have the authority to do that? Is the board involved? Is all this. But to name somebody and have that host, like the son one day, son, this is all going to be yours. This family business, that to name them, as opposed to having a plan where you are developing, call it a handful, a few people with no promises to anybody, and you're having to fight the. You've got the culture that fights. You're not trying to build competition. You don't want to do that, but you're developing skills and you're giving them lanes to run in where it's going to emerge, who this should be. And then when that starts to become clear, then you've got to have some sort of a plan and a timeline of this. Because in family businesses, in even public companies, we've seen this recently where they come back. Yeah, yeah, I'm back, I'm back, I'm back. Who's in charge?

[A]

So there's a. Who's in charge? If, you know, I imagine there's a few Senior pastors, leaders, CEOs watching who are kind of owned by this conversation now, going, yep, I did that. I said I was going to go last year. I didn't go. Said I was going to go three years ago. I extended it. What would you say to that leader.

[B]

Who'S already doing it?

[A]

Yeah. Who's in the middle of, like, a delayed succession?

[B]

Well, the first thing I would say is, and who am I? Without knowing their circumstances, know it may be best if they stick around for a while.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, there are circumstances where, you know, you don't change horses in the middle of a. A river that's all of a sudden got flooded, you know, so. So you can make the case for that, but in the kind you're talking about, where it's just founderitis and I guess, yes, sticky fingers. And we see. I work with a lot of family businesses that, you know, you've. You've got. You've got kids that are well into the place where they should be running something. Right. But you got founderitis. So the first thing I would really want them to do to find out what are we talking about here as the driver of this, I want them to look in the mirror and ask themselves, do I believe this church is God's or is it mine? Whose kingdom is this?

[A]

And in the scenarios I'm getting, it appears to be the senior pastor's kingdom. The board serves at the pleasure of the senior pastor to the whims of the senior pastor. It's not, oh, wow. Everybody here, including the successor, thinks you should hang on for another year or two until we get through the season. It seems to be that founderitis problem.

[B]

There's a lot of that. And it's not just in churches, you see it. In companies, you see it. But here's your problem. Part of the responsibility of a leader is always, always, always, always to you are building something that can outlast you. And that should deserve. Going way back. That should deserve. In time, five years, four years ago, that should deserve. A focused amount of your attention is developing leaders. That's one of the most important thing a leader can do. I was doing a leadership event with Jack Welch one time, and. And when we started, I was interviewing him and I said, so before we.

[A]

Get into this, Jack Welch was the former CEO of General Electric.

[B]

Yeah, he's the one that took it from a little to the biggest thing in the world. Right. And I said, I read somewhere that you spent 30% of your time as CEO teaching leadership within the company. And if he had hair, I thought it would catch on fire. He almost came out of his chair. He said, that is absolutely not true. I said, it sounded like a lot to me. He goes, it was 60. Wow.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

60. Building, preparing, building and preparing. We don't send Navy SEALs out on a mission without a lot of development that's gone on before. And when you are keeping, you know, look at the back to the Bible, what is the model of authority that Jesus did? The role of the authority in this regard is the person with authority is all authority has been given to me. And what did he do? He passed it on. But he didn't pass it on to an 18 year old to go scale Osama bin Laden's wall, day one. What he did was he built them up gradually, giving them more and more authority over certain areas of life until he could go away. And that is a big deal for leaders. And gosh, what could be a better moment for a leader that first today that Timothy that he built steps up and this thing is thriving. I mean, what a. Your legacy is not your name. It's the impact.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And a lot of people think it's their name.

[A]

Nobody's going to remember you.

[B]

I remember when there are people running around right now, today, listening to this on their phones or watching it on a computer. They are experiencing the legacy of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and they don't even know who those guys are. I mean, they've heard their names. That's your legacy. Hundredfold fruit that you may be the ceiling on. Unless the wheat falls to the ground and dies, it can't produce the hundredfold fruit. And if you can't let your role die, you're the ceiling. And you'll be accountable for that.

[A]

Yeah. And that takes a certain level of, I don't know, groundedness. Like, I remember when I was stepping out of the lead pastor role and even the regular teaching pastor role had a few conversations. I remember talking to Gordon McDonald about it and I said, what did you learn when he stepped down as a pastor in his 60s? He said, they forget you quickly. Absolutely right.

[B]

Good.

[A]

I can go to our church and 70% of the people have no idea who I am. And that's not bad.

[B]

Oh, that's way good. Yeah. Way good.

[A]

Yeah. What would you say to, we want.

[B]

The Constitution to last longer than the present? Those guys in the white wigs that, you know, wrote it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

We remember them. You know, and the Bible says, you put down some stones here. Remember when this happened, this and that. But what we're talking about is what they built, and Jesus is building a church that it didn't start with you and it's not going to end with you.

[A]

So what prevents a leader from accessing that headspace where they're like, yeah, I hope they forget me and I hope this thing does goes bigger and better without me than it did with me. Like, what is it that prevents a founder or a longtime leader from being in that space where they're good with that?

[B]

They're mothers.

[A]

Okay, well, all right, here we go. Are their fathers fasten? Your seatbelt goes back to childhood.

[B]

Well, it doesn't. Kind of the psychologist joke, but. But what I'm really thinking underneath that what prevents them, it's. Number one would be narcissism. Number two would be fear. Fear of now what? Number three would be a vacuum in their lives. What are they stepping into? A lot of them, who they are, what they do, all their relationships, et cetera, et cetera. They let go of that role, they lose it all. They haven't built community that empowers them. They haven't built outside activities. They haven't built networks or relationships. They haven't built no dad Gummet, I hope everybody has this experience. The thing that bugs me most about what I do is all the different things I didn't get to do because I do what I do. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's like you're. You're in this job. But gosh, wouldn't it be fun too if I would have liked this career or that career? That career, sure. But we have to choose one. The point being that it's sort of like when we're recent empty nesters. A few years ago, our daughters are 23 and 25. And when Lucy left home, the little one, Tori and I are in the kitchen. And you know, empty nests is really hard for some people, right? So we're in the kitchen about a week later, and she looks, we're making dinner and she looks up and says, so am I supposed to feel bad that I kind of like this?

[A]

We had a good time, too. We love our kids, but we're having a good time.

[B]

And a lot of them don't have any good times. When they leave that role, they're looking into a vacuum. And so they hold on and they get afraid and, you know, get stocked. There's the other thing is, I think a lot of times the milieu around them has not really prepared them to see the legacy of this church as the appreciation and the gratitude that people have. So really all they have is what they've got now. And they're not talking. Everybody should be talking about when you move on. And the big problem is you have put a ceiling on the future. When your leaders can't take over, they're going to leave.

[A]

Well, and that gets me to the next part because I'm just going to keep. When I get that dm, I'll just send them to this part of our conversation today. What do you do for the Timothys who are not given the opportunity to lead who were promised it was going to happen. And now the timeline's indefinite, or was supposed to be last year still hasn't happened. And they're waiting. They're 38, they're 43, some of them are 50. And they're still hanging on, waiting for that founding archetype to finally step aside and throw the reins to them. What is your advice for them?

[B]

I would, I would ask them, do you. Do you really feel like that, that God has equipped you and you are equipped in your own experience to be a senior and that's what you really want to do. So get clear about this. Well, if that's true, then you are not. It's not going to happen here. What are you going to do?

[A]

Yeah, call it like it's not happening.

[B]

Not happening. That's not a bad thing. I mean, you. That's multiplication anyway. Go start something.

[A]

A lot of them feel bad. They're like, well, I'm going to leave, go somewhere else, leave the pastor high and dry. You know, this is our church. I've heard that.

[B]

Of course, you know, when, when people separate from parents at 18, like you're supposed to and find your own life, then a lot of them feel bad, you know, and all this, all this kind of stuff. And so that's why adulthood is getting, you know, you're supposed to become an adult at 18 years old. And in the Bible, you know, and you can argue this but, you know, neurological. They don't know their brain till they're 25. Well, so much of that is so skewed crazy like, like somebody can't keep their pants. Pants on at 15 because their final ego development isn't consolidated to come on. But the. Because it takes, it takes separating and individuating, actually to consolidate that. So that's why we have. People should be adults now that are, you know, they're 40 years old on the mother's couch with a video game. You've got to. You gotta get out there and do something. And they say, well, I don't feel ready. And again, yeah, you're ready to start. You're not ready to be at the end. But you'll learn that as you go out.

[A]

Yeah, you'll get it as you go.

[B]

But I would say this. The most important thing that you can do is nobody steps out into that journey alone. The most important thing you do is who you have around you to counsel you, to help you, to guide you. But go, go. What are you waiting on? Go.

[A]

One of the other challenges I see in the church. And you might see it differently, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. That might call the question, What? When that 45 year old or 50 year old says, you know what, I feel like I'm ready to be a senior pastor and I want to lead something. And the guy goes, well, you know, I'm gonna hang around. Well, that's fine, you can do that, but I'm gonna go somewhere else. And then all of a sudden, hopefully the board is gonna go, wait, we just lost our guy. No, a lot of times that's what consequences do they call it forces.

[A]

The question. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You're enabling this guy in some scenarios.

[A]

Well, it's interesting, you know, I wanted to ask you this question as well, Henry. When I was 23, I was given a lot of ridiculous responsibility. I worked at a law firm. They threw me into court on a regular basis, way in the deep end.

[B]

Good for them.

[A]

I didn't know what I was doing. But you know what? You figure it out. You figure it out and figure it out. When I graduated seminary, given three little churches, and I had a supervisor who was in his 70s, but he basically was there to encourage, cheer, enable. And I did some things right and some things wrong. But you know what? They let me lead when I was young. And one of the things I've noticed is as we've all gotten older, certainly as I've gotten older, I wonder if a lot of leaders today are hesitant to really trust the next generation. Throw them the keys and say, you drive this thing. It's like, you know, and this isn't necessarily a continuation of what we were just talking about, but I talked to some guys, you know, they're saying, well, he's 42, he's a really young leader. It's like, no, he's in the middle of life. Like, he's not a young leader anymore. Like, this is not the youth group, guys. Like, this is somebody in the prime of life. But you're still treating him like he was an 18 year old, right? Do you see that? Like, do we infantilize next gen leaders and. Cause you see a lot of them taking their stuff outside of the church now. Because I don't know that we're giving them the responsibility inside the church that perhaps we got. When I was 25, 28, 30, 32 people gave me ridiculous responsibility.

[B]

But you're only calling it ridiculous because now people don't.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

I mean, that's the way it's supposed to be.

[A]

That's how it's supposed to Go.

[B]

Supposed to be. I look at the. That one of the things that disturbs me the most, and we're talking about where the leaders come from, is the parenting narratives that are out there today. We are delaying maturity at rampant scale. Kids are able to do stuff long before they're being seen as able Right.

[A]

Right now.

[B]

And that whole mentality, you know, obviously you're picking it up in the church context, but you got to give them look. You don't hand over the race. Remember when your oldest kid got their driver's permit and you got in the car for the first time? Right. Sitting on the wrong seat. Well, hopefully what happened was when they got that permit, you didn't say, okay, you know, take the car and drive to New York.

[A]

Good luck, have fun.

[B]

You don't have to be afraid of doing because we know they're not ready to drive, but you're not giving them the opportunity to learn how to drive. Right. So this is why you go in a parking lot and you practice and then you let them drive. I remember when I was a kid, my dad used to take me out on Sunday mornings. From the time I was 2 years old. This is a good practice, dads. From the time I was about two and a half, every Sunday morning, he'd get me out of bed at six o'. Clock. We'd go to breakfast with his best friend and we'd have breakfast. And then he and I would drive around town, look at his different projects. There was a lake nearby where we had a house, and we'd go up there, or we'd go shoot guns or we'd go do something. But he always, from time I was, I don't know, six years old Sunday morning, there's nothing out there out in the country. He put me in his lap and said, drive. And by the time I got my driver's license, he didn't have any. I was playing competitive golf. We got our driver's license at 15 back then. And when I turned 15, it was a great day for my parents because they would send me 200 miles away, give me some money for a hotel so I can drive myself to my own golf tournaments. Now at 15, kids can. We're keeping them paralyzed. And leaders do the same things, but they didn't do that before you're ready. So here's the point that you're making, I think give them something to go lead that's small. Like Jim Collins says, don't fire cannonballs, fire bullets. Give them something that's small and let them go at least what every great corporation does. And also I would, you know, I make them work in different verticals. Mm.

[A]

So you're leading this group, you're leading a team, you're leading a department. Now you're leading a campus.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now you're XP over the whole thing and now you're ready. But that doesn't have to be a 30 year progression. Oh, that can be a five year progression. You see that in organizations.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It could be three.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It kind of depends on who we're.

[A]

Talking about if they have it.

[B]

Some people come to the party and they've had different growing up years and different adult growing up years between 20 and 35 or whatever. And they're, they're ready to do things that you've never seen anybody that age ready to do. You know, we see that.

[A]

You know, quick, quick driving story. My dad, we were talking about this with my dad a couple weeks ago. We were together with my siblings for dinner and my parents were there and I was saying to my dad, you know, you gave us like ridiculous amounts of responsibility. On my 16th birthday, there was no graduated licensing. So now where I'm from, you get your G1, you have to have an adult in the car. Then you get your G2 and you can finally drive on your own. But there's restrictions. Back then it was like all or nothing. You could either drive a car or you couldn't. So my 16th birthday, my dad ran a car.

[B]

When I grew up, you could drive a car and have open container on the in when you went hunting fish.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

It's a little different now.

[A]

A little different now. But he, he just said, all right, you get in the car, you're driving me to Toronto. He's going to go see a client. And we lived an hour and a half north of Toronto. So, you know, I'm driving on the roads and we hit the freeway and I'm like, okay, dad, I'm going to pull over. You drive on the highway. He's like, no, no, no, you drive on the highway. I'm like, okay, well, we're kind of like, well north of Toronto. So I'll keep driving on the highway. Then we're getting close to the Toronto area. I'm like, okay, dad, where do you want me to pull over? He's like, no, you keep going. I'm like, dad, now we're entering the city center. I mean, Toronto's a major city.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I'm like, now we're entering the city center. Dad, I gotta pull over you drive. He's like, nope, you take me right downtown. I drove right downtown Toronto, 16th birthday and all the way back. And you know what? It just gave me confidence.

[B]

Now what gave you confidence?

[A]

His confidence in me. And, and the experience.

[B]

The experience.

[A]

The experience of I didn't ding anybody, there were no fender benders, I could do it. And so I had the confidence. And I just look at that. And I gave my boys that same level. I took them out before they were 16 and took them to parking lots and back roads.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, all of that. So that when they were 16, on their birthday, went, got their license and I want to do the same thing for leaders. It's like you should lead, hire them before they're ready and let them go 100%.

[B]

It's interesting how in today's world we just keep people down and don't let them develop agency and competency.

[A]

I'm not a kid at 50.

[B]

No, you're not, you're not. You know, in the Bible it's, you know, you hear this age of accountability, which you never see that phrase, but really it's, if you look at the scriptures, it's right about 20. That's when they became accountable for their decisions and got to go on the promised land or didn't. Or got to go fight the war and didn't. And this and the other. And we're just not a 20 year old that shouldn't be his first rodeo. You know when it's weird when my dad who really believed in this principle. This is kind of a funny story. I'll make it short. When I went to college, I fell in love with this girl. She was great. We dated through freshman year, but nobody told me when we started dating. Our father was the governor of Texas.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

And in Texas I came from Mississippi, my cousin was the governor. It's no big deal. In Texas it's a big deal, right?

[A]

Yeah, that's a big deal.

[B]

And so they invite me to come down and visit them that summer. And so I drive from Mississippi over to Texas and I go pick her up at the governor's mansion to drive to their place in south Texas. She wants to take her car because she had a bunch of stuff she wouldn't take. So I'm driving, I pull out and I do in front of the governor's mansion. I do an illegal U turn or I went the wrong way on a wrong way street right in front of the governor's mansion and I get hit head on by a dump truck and the car goes up and flows and I've totaled the car. We're okay.

[A]

Her car or your car?

[B]

Her car. I'm going to meet the parents for the first time. And I just totaled. My girlfriend.

[A]

Totaled the car. And it's on fire in your driveway.

[B]

And this and the governor's van. You know, there's helicopters and dudes and all this kind of stuff. So I called my father and I said, daddy, what? I just had a wreck. And he goes, you're okay. Is she okay? I said, yeah, we're okay, but I totaled the car. And he said, you totaled your car? I said, no, I totaled her car. He goes, you totally. I said, who do I do I call? Our insurance or his. Or is it their car? But what? He goes, son, calm down, calm down. Let me get the facts straight. You're going to meet your girlfriend's father for the first time, and he's the governor, and you just total his car and you got to shake his hand. And that's going to be the first time you ever met the man. Tell him you just car. I said, yeah. Who do I call what? He says, son, if you are old enough to get yourself in a mess like this, you're old enough to get yourself out of it. Call me and tell me how you did it. And he hung up the phone.

[A]

Oh, what a good dad.

[B]

What a good dad.

[A]

What a good dad.

[B]

I had to figure it out.

[A]

Oh, man. So what'd you do?

[B]

I called our insurance guy and he walked me through it and had to deal with the police and all that kind of stuff. And then we got in my car and her father was so gracious.

[A]

Was he? Mr. Governor. Mr. Governor, I don't know what to call you.

[B]

Every night when we would go out, he goes, just make sure she drives. But leaders give your people experience. And here's the other important part of this, and this is a big problem, you see, in leadership is we are designed the created order. You know, we're designed the image of God. And there's three directions that we ought to be able to function well in. We ought to God in the Trinity. You see, you know, they function in different ways. And we ought to be able to take authority and lead others. We also ought to be able to be peers and be at equal authority with others. And we also have to be able to submit to authority above us. That's the created order. You see a lot of leaders, they're great leading up and their bosses love them. Their team can't stand them or the People that report to them can't stand them. Or they build little fiefdoms where everybody reports to them, loves them, but they're driving their boss crazy because they got their own little. And the team could be here. And so what I like to do in leadership development is make sure, in this path you're talking about, make sure that that leader has got to function, keeping the people they report to happy, keeping their team happy, and keeping the people that report to them happy. Because when they are going to be the senior, they better be able to submit to board, to the law, to regulators, to the city council, or wherever you got to pay taxes. They gotta be able to function on a team of elders because they're probably gonna be in that role. And they've gotta be able to lead people or executive team. They gotta be able to lead people without driving them crazy. And you see a lot of people who. Their character is not integrated into all three functions. And that's a big problem in leadership.

[A]

Henry, you made a big life change, you and your wife. A couple years ago, you moved from la, where you lived pretty much your whole adult life.

[B]

Yeah, since college.

[A]

Since college.

[B]

So, yeah, I went to LA for my training.

[A]

So you're there for decades.

[B]

Decades. I'm 400 years old now.

[A]

400 years old. I'm 398. So right behind you. And you moved to Nashville.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's really interesting. And here we are in Nashville filming this. What did you learn in the process of uprooting an entire adult life and moving to a new community? What did you learn about leaving? What did you learn about. About making new friends? About all of that? Because this is something sometimes leaders do. I lived in the same basic area my entire life. I'm just curious, because that thought is really daunting to me, but also exciting to me.

[B]

Oh, gosh. There are several things that I learned. I'll get to the part that's more personal than things you ask about, but in a big change like that, I learned that your number one responsibility is as a husband. It was a lot easier for me in our circumstance than it was for Tori because she was leaving home. She grew up in Southern California.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Deep family, and she went to college in Southern California.

[A]

So this is an entire life.

[B]

So she's leaving her entire. Not only that, she's leaving her passions. She loves the beach, and she loves the outdoors and the weather. That, you know, all of that. And she was leaving her community, and it seemed like, this is great. We're going on an adventure. To me. Right. But I had done things because of, you know, publishing and business and obviously Christian networks that are here and all of that. In fact, I've been in a small group in Nashville for years that they let me come to when I'm in town. And so I already had a lot of.

[A]

So you had roots here.

[B]

You had some friends and business. And it was a lot easier for me because 90% of my work is east of the Rockies. And from Nashville, you can get anywhere in an hour and a half. And every trip I made from California was a nightmare. And I don't know if you've Googled this or not, but income taxes are a little different here.

[A]

So I've heard. Yeah.

[B]

So I've heard in California. I loved the, you know, idea of it, but what I learned was my primary role had to be making that, helping make that path. Good for her. And fortunately, we had such good friends through our extended network. And I'd say this to anybody, if you got somebody new that are moving into town or do this for them. We had one family who's well established here. One member of the family put together a luncheon for her. Come meet Tori with a small group.

[A]

Come meet Henry. Come meet Henry.

[B]

No, no, it had nothing to do with me. With a small group of women on one side of town, and another one on another side of town did the same thing. And she met some women and she has more community than now that which is her whole life. She's.

[A]

So I married a very relational woman.

[B]

Yeah. And a lot of her work, you know, philanthropy and stuff we do is connected to a lot of relationships. And so I just had to really, really see, that's number one. The other thing that I learned was somebody. It made me aware of this when somebody asked me, so what do you miss about la? I say, oh, gosh, I miss a group of friends. I miss my church. I miss the weather. I miss the food scene. LA is unbelievable.

[A]

You can get anything.

[B]

And I miss my golf club. Yeah. And they said, well, what do you like about Nashville? And I thought about it and say, well, I like my friends. I love my church. I love the food scene here. It's great. I love the weather. See, I have seasons and all this. And I love my new golf club.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

And so I think, you know, wherever you go, there you are. So I think part of what I learned was that if you're, you know, you got in touch with. Get in touch with what makes your life work and what matters to you. And I Don't know. I don't know if we're really designed to sit in one spot for 100 years or not, but it's been an exciting move and I miss la. I loved living in la. I just loved it. So we go back, especially in the hot months, to visit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so taxes, you know, obviously it is more advantageous. And I've heard that from numerous people who've come in from New York or la.

[B]

Well, think about this. The highest income tax rate in California is 14%. And that's off the top line. You take 14% of somebody's income, or even if it's even down to 12 or 10, if you took that, that's cash every year, which means you have to make way more than that to have that after tax. Right? That's cash every year. And you start to compound that in investing or, you know, for retirement.

[A]

10 off of.

[B]

And giving. I mean, that's just. And I mean, I just don't know where I just. Sometimes I don't know what they're thinking.

[A]

Loneliness is, is a big problem for leadership, and a lot of leaders shouldn't be.

[B]

It should not be.

[A]

Okay, talk.

[B]

It should not. One of my most hated phrases, it's lonely at the top. If it's lonely at the top, you got a problem. God is not lonely. Think about that. He is not lonely at the top. And if you are lonely at the top, well, first of all, where is your elder boy? Where are your advisors? Where's your community? Now, there is some heat that you will feel in having to make certain calls from the chair that you sit in. But as the seals say, nobody rises to a challenge. You fall to your level of training. So are you. And have you been equipping yourself to be able to make those calls but bear one another's burdens? Those calls should not be made in a vacuum. You're doing that. No president goes to war without the Joint Chiefs. They're not lonely in that decision. There's a moment of solitude where the decision rests on you. But loneliness. Get out of town. If you are lonely, you better do something about that because your making is wrong. You're. Go ahead.

[A]

No, keep going. Go through the list and tell me how you made.

[B]

Well, your brain's not going to function. Your fears are going to take over. Your grandiosity is going to take over. Your denial systems, your biases, your cognitive biases, your history. If you are leading in a vacuum or worse. What a lot of these people do is they have just Their spouse, that's their confidant. And that can be a closed psychotic system that nobody can penetrate or speak into. That's just a big, big problem. We are designed as your brain does not make decisions amputated on a shelf apart from your body. It needs oxygen. It needs cellular development and reconstruction all the time. It needs movement. Do not be lonely as a leader. Dadgummit, you are in trouble. If you are, how have you have to go Buy it. Buy it?

[A]

What do you mean by that?

[B]

Well, I think I'll give you a great example. I won't. Well, I don't think they. But we can cut it out. Mariners Church is a great example.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Eric.

[B]

Well, long before Eric. Eric's leading something now that he didn't start, right?

[A]

No.

[B]

No, it was before that. Okay, but here's what they did. Here's what they did with him. The elders had a committee that reported to the board of elders whose mission of this committee was the care and well being and development of the senior pastor. They had a, a psychologist, a former CEO, a former head of HR from a big company of senior pastor. I think you know, in other words, it was people that really knew what they were doing and they steward the development of the senior pastor. That was his 30 plus year run because the body was doing its work. And that's a. But that costs money. Okay, I've got one client company that spends $100 million a year on individual coaching just for their senior, their leadership. Okay? Every company in the world does this except the church. So why don't we have. Why is it in the church budget for a coach, a mentor, a shrink if they need whatever it is sending them to summit or other great leadership forums or networks or whatever. It's so important. When I say you might have to pay for it. The scripture says that sell all you have to buy wisdom. It's right there in the Bible. So why that should be part of the. And sometimes hopefully you don't have to pay for it because there's somebody in the network. There's business people, there's other pastors. But here's the other thing. Get out of the system only. In other words, your community cannot be your stakeholders because the advice they're giving you, they've got a conflict of interest. Certainly you have community. Some of your best friends may be in your church, but if you don't have really good community in other networks that aren't your competitors down the street or whatever and they can tell you the truth, it's not Gonna affect their life. If you open up a second campus, they don't care. They care about you and your development. A closed system, entropy increases over time. And to turn around the law of entropy, you got to inject new energy from the outside. And intelligence, it's got to organize the energy. So that means you've got to get people outside of your system also helping to develop you. Very important.

[A]

How have you gone about making new friends in a brand new community? You had some friends when you were here, so that helps. That's a nice starting point. But what are some things that you've done to expand your relational base since you moved?

[B]

And this is probably a pretty common path that everybody could do. Mine had mostly come from my activities. I play golf. And so I've got a whole new network of golfing buddies that just show up and look for a game. Right. A lot of it has come from, you know, a few people, and they bring you in to their circle and you meet them and that multiplies. One of them has been from people outside of Nashville that connect friends you have in other places that have friends here that connect you. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. Hey, you know, so and so's moving Nashville. You ought to know so and so I'm gonna connect you guys and y' all go have lunch. You do that. Our church is great. It mainly is kind of a get active in the things you love and you'll find people you love that love what you love. And I guess it's.

[A]

It sounds so basic and yet it's so rare. Right. Like when you look at the loneliness stats and when you look at the people who don't have actual friends and you look at the state of relationships in ministry. But this is really good advice. But what it means is you have a life. Anything else about loneliness, Henry?

[B]

Well, you know, it's interesting. There was a leadership event that I did for a number of years with a small group of. Of pastors. We did this. We bring in about 25 of them. And we did this for a number of years. And there were enough groups where I could keep some data. You know, I love research. And I would always ask them three or a list of questions. But a few of the questions, three questions were, where do you have. Where you can be 100% transparent, that's confidential. Somebody that's not a stakeholder in what you do. 80% of them over time said, I don't have anywhere like that. Senior pastors. Second question. Have you experienced Anything in the last 12 months that you would deem has gotten to clinical proportions like depression or loneliness or anxiety or addiction or whatever. About 80% of them said yes. Third question. Where do you go? What person or persons in your life do you have that the entire relationship, it's not mutual. The entire relationship is dedicated to your growth and development as a leader? At 80% of them said nowhere. I just couldn't believe it.

[A]

These are senior pastors.

[B]

Senior pastors. Where are the elders that aren't entering into that and requiring it?

[A]

That's come up a lot. The elders. The role of the board. The role of the board in this conversation. We do have a lot of elders and board members listening to this show. So if you're a board member, what do you do?

[B]

You are an overseer.

[A]

Yeah, Henry, we covered a lot. You have a new book coming out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Best book you've ever written.

[B]

There's a way in which I feel that actually, I love this one. It's called your desired future. And we talk about leadership and life being. Moving things from here to there. Well, how does that actually happen? And years ago, there's so much great leadership stuff out there where you can kind of get lost in the. Well, what are the food groups? It's like, I need calcium and I need this, and it's really overwhelming. But what I did was I did a factor analysis of all this, all of that stuff. And really it comes down to there's basically five things that if one of them or two of them is missing, then it's not going to work. And the problem is that each, none of us has all five of those strengths. And we build things in our own image. So if somebody's a great visionary, a lot of times they'll, you know, they're thinking that way and they're moving all vision and engaging the talent and all of that. But measurement and accountability, for example, is a basic body function to walk across the room. If God is built into the brain, the ability, am I on track? Am I getting there? Am I at the right speed? Am I doing the right things to get there? And somebody may not be wired that way just because you're not wired that way. You're the leader and you gotta make sure that's happening somewhere, that somebody's got the. You have to do it. Or what if, for example, you know, you talk about accountability. What if you're conflict avoidant and your ministry is going to suffer? One of the big things I find myself talking to churches a lot about now, Carrie Is there is. There's no such thing. You go into a church and you start talking about having some, some accountability and measuring some things and this and the other, which is a basic New Testament tenet and somebody's going to stand up and I've never not seen this happen. But wait a minute. You're trying to, you're trying to run this thing like a business. This is a ministry.

[A]

Nobody's accountable for anything because it's a ministry.

[B]

It's a ministry and I always say so it's God's business. The only one that's allowed to suck. No, seriously, I mean we're. And it's a great question. And there's no such thing in the New Testament as a non performance based culture. You just don't see it.

[A]

No such thing in the New Testament as a non performance based culture.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Everything's performance based in the New Testament.

[B]

You tell me now. It's undergirded by grace. But we mistake grace's license. Grace is God's favor. The fact God loves me unconditionally, that's an aspect of grace. But it's not the totality of grace. Grace is what comes underneath to empower us to reach a never moving standard. And what we've done in the name of grace, we've gotten rid of standards. But you look at the New Testament now think about this. You got three positions in your church. One of them you give a couple of resources to and they double that, you give them more parable of talents. Another one you give some resources to, they double that, you promote them. Another one, you gave them a position and they're not producing any fruit. You take that chair away from that person and give it to somebody who's going to produce. Ideally, yes, that's performance. On the negative side, reject a divisive person. After a second warning, Paul says, you know, pretty clear. It's very clear throughout his letters. Don't associate with these people. They're spreading this and this, that and the other. And what about John 15? Pruning, you're pruning them so you get more fruit.

[A]

Sort of performance based culture. It's interesting. There's a mutual friend of ours who I don't want to name because I don't want to give him responsibility for this. In case it was a private comment. But his theory on Paul versus Peter was that, and this is all speculation, that Jesus kind of looked at Peter, but Peter got trapped with Gentiles. Really? Really. And it wasn't going particularly well. It's like, all right, I better knock Paul off his horse and we'll get this thing out to the world. That's not a bad theory, actually. Peter was still helpful, but Paul's the one who really was responsible for spreading Christianity throughout the Roman Empire.

[B]

But think about this, too. If Paul had gone to the Jews, you might have a little overconfidence working. And then you can't say, you got to depend on the power of God. But this whole thing about, you know, it's so interesting. The basic problem in the universe was when grace and truth were split. You know, we had all of that in the beginning, and then we disconnected from the relationship and God gave us the law in place of it. And then he comes back. The law was given through Moses, but grace and truth were realized through Jesus. In the Psalms, it says that righteousness and mercy have indeed met in God. They've kissed. And you always have problems in families if somebody's loving without limits or if they have limits without love. And a ministry is the same thing. And the entire law is the structure of righteousness to make love work. And you have love without expectations. In that love, it's going to go perverted. And so when you try to build a ministry without standards and consequences and performance and rewarding, giving little and they're faithful to that, they get more and empowering them to get there. This isn't a standard without fertilizing and the grace in building. And you don't require a football team to win the super bowl without months of building their skills. So it's a big deal. People don't like it, especially if. If it's ever. I remember one group, I went into the ministry, I was looking at this, and it's just ridiculous. And I said, what do you have to do to get fired around here? There are people not doing anything. Plus rolls that don't move the needle. That's another thing. And. And they looked around the table, they said, I don't know if we ever fired anybody. They literally said that.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then one guy says, no, no, I don't know if you. If you steal money or sleep with somebody, you can get fired. But that's about it.

[A]

Wow. Wow.

[B]

Onward Christian soldiers. Equipped for battles.

[A]

Not going to win any battles.

[B]

So the new book is called again, your desired future.

[A]

Your desired future. It's available for pre order. Comes out in May.

[B]

Yeah, it's probably as the old thing. Wherever books are sold.

[A]

Wherever books are sold.

[B]

It's really. It's an interesting concept, though, because I asked the question, how does you know what's God's model of leadership and what's his company called? It's called the body. Well, how did he design a body to get from here to there? And you start to look at the neurological and physiological systems that God built into the human body that are talked about throughout the New Testament that actually cause us to be able to perform. And that's, that's what the book's about. It's a simple map.

[A]

So you have a pretty big collection of books you've written, co authored over the years. How many is this now?

[B]

I mean, if so.

[A]

No, how many? No, how many books have you written?

[B]

They'd say it's in the 40s, I don't know.

[A]

In the 40s, okay.

[B]

I don't know exactly.

[A]

So again, that's over.

[B]

But I've also had, had two parallel lanes. Yeah, got two, you know, the psychologists growth, self help world, if you will, and then the leadership. I've had two.

[A]

But you know, times change. We got a lot of young leaders watching, listening. If you think back over those 40 some odd books, is there one in particular could have been written 20 years ago, 10 years ago, that you're like, hey, in this moment, we're in, in culture right now, in the leadership culture. Buy my new book, but take a look at this one too.

[B]

One in particular I think would be Boundaries for Leaders. Because in that book, and I wrote that probably roughly 10 years ago, maybe about a decade ago, but there's a lot in that book about, you know, we've got so much scatteredness now and inability to get people focused and all of that. And it's about the human dynamics that are involved in the boundaries that leaders have to set to make things work. And I'd say that one for Leadership.

[A]

Necessary Endings, that's one of my perpetual recommends.

[B]

Yeah, that's so good.

[A]

And it's so counterintuitive, particularly because it.

[B]

And trust.

[A]

Yeah, you know what, those are the two that I always talk about, Trust and Necessary Endings. That large book you wrote a few years ago on Trust. And on that note, I'll just underscore this. We talked about it before when you were on the show. Your last third of the book or 20% of the book on what to do to restore somebody who's broken your trust or fallen huge. And hands down the best stuff I've ever read. If you're thinking about restoring someone to ministry, restoring a broken relationship, restoring a staff member, restoring a marriage, whatever that is, I mean it's not a short section for a reason.

[B]

And restoring somebody's not short and easy either. Shouldn't be, but it's very.

[A]

It's possible. It's possible. And we either banish them to the wilderness or we they just set up shop overnight across the country.

[B]

Yeah. Unchanged. Both are bad and find enablers to help them do that. Can I mention one other book? 100% I jumped out of my lane last year. I always try to stay in my lane, not pontificate about stuff I don't know anything about. But instead of a psychology or leadership book, I have so many non Christian friends that the conversation is hard to have in today's environment about faith because they think you're one of those. But there were so many that I wanted them to understand why I believe this stuff. And so I finally wrote a book of my journey of faith and how I came to faith. The title is why I Believe, but the subtitle is the Psychologist Thoughts on Suffering, Miracles, Science and Faith. Because that was my path. I was in deep suffering when I hit bottom. God stepped in with some major and has done so many miracles that are undeniable. And then it brought up all the science questions and the obstacles and the hard questions and how he resolved those for me. And then particular section on the science of psychology and how it it proved the Bible to me to be true. But I wrote it so people give it to their non believing friends and equip other Christians as well.

[A]

I love those books and I so appreciate you. Henry. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time today with your insights. Great to be here with your wisdom. You helped a lot of leaders and you helped me as always.

[B]

Well, and you're helping a lot of leaders too. You've given me and built a great platform for you know, where do you go to get a good dose of something practical that can help you and you keep doing that.

[A]

So thank you Henry.

[B]

God bless you.

[A]

I learn so much whenever I get together with Henry and he's one of the nicest people as well. Just a genuinely good soul who has helped so many of us navigate so many issues, personal and leadership and otherwise. If you want the show notes for this, you can find it all inside my Art of Leadership Academy. You can join, well almost 20,000 leaders who have now signed up. You can get a free account starting today. Just click the link wherever you're watching or listening to this episode and you can get in the Academy. And we have some great conversations too. Conversations about these shows, conversations about issues without all the usual nonsense that you find online. So if you want to join 20,000 other like minded leaders, go to theartofleadershipacademy.com Next episode, another in person interview. We did a lot of these as we kick off 2026. Patrick Lencioni is back. He opens up about his dark night of the soul. My goodness, do we go deep? How work can heal you. And a whole lot more Also coming up, speaking about opening up your Soul, Craig Groeschel, Dr. Wayne Chappelle, Beth Moore, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate Tomlin, Jenny Allen. And a whole lot more.

[B]

More.

[A]

Thank you so much for listening. If this conversation was helpful, one of the kindest things you could do, share it with a friend and then hit follow and leave a review or a rating. And if you do that, you know what, this show gets bigger. As it gets bigger, we can bring you the very best guests on the planet. Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next time. I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier. You're facing it.