CNLP 785 | Patrick Lencioni Opens Up About His Dark Night of the Soul, How Work Can Heal You, And Leading Next Gen Leaders

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast | CNLP 785

Episode Title

Patrick Lencioni Opens Up About His Dark Night of the Soul, How Work Can Heal You, And Leading Next Gen Leaders

Release Date: February 12, 2026
Host: Carey Nieuwhof
Guest: Patrick Lencioni

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Episode Overview

In this deeply vulnerable and wide-ranging episode, Carey Nieuwhof sits down with leadership expert and author Patrick Lencioni for an unusually candid conversation about personal growth, pain, and leadership. Lencioni opens up about his recent “dark night of the soul”—what led to his sabbatical, the harrowing process of facing longstanding wounds, and how he found healing. Carey and Patrick explore how work can become a place of healing, discuss mentoring next-generation leaders, and reflect on how decades of leadership relationships parallel family life, including their own struggles as leaders, bosses, fathers, and husbands.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Work as a Place of Healing

(02:32 – 06:24)

• Work as Healing: Patrick shares his belief that “people go to work to heal” and that God made us to need others beyond our family ("We are meant to be with other people in community to get better... work is a great place to begin the healing process." – Patrick, 02:56).
• Whole Person Leadership: Leaders must see employees as “whole people” – with wounds, talents, and personal histories, not just skill sets.
• Integration vs. Balance: Lencioni warns against expecting people to “leave problems at the door” at work—urging for authenticity and integration of personal and professional self.

2. Vulnerability, Mentoring & Generational Leadership

(06:24 – 15:09)

• Leading for Wholeness: Carey recalls the realization that “it’s not just skills to extract,” but that as a boss, you “have to develop the whole person” (04:22).
• Grace & Boundaries: Patrick emphasizes the balance—extend mercy, but set boundaries. Key decision point: pray for guidance on whether to offer more grace or accountability ("Purify my intentions...am I enabling in a bad way or giving the grace they need?" – Patrick, 08:42).
• Vulnerability as a Tool: Sharing personal struggles when giving feedback opens recipients up to growth ("Be vulnerable… When you go to somebody and say you have to give them tough advice, let them know about something you went through." – Patrick, 09:52).
• Mentoring Young Staff: Modern leadership, especially with Gen Z, often feels more like “parenting”—from sleep habits to taking responsibility. Patrick affirms this role, referencing football coach advice that young adults need other caring adults (12:01-13:13).

3. Navigating Personal Boundaries in the Workplace

(15:09 – 24:23)

• How Far is Too Far? The danger is not in oversharing, but in holding back: “Usually we do too little...” (19:43).
• Conflict as a Sign of Caring: Avoided conflict is more common than excess; honest (if uncomfortable) conversations foster growth in long-term relationships.
• Growth through Apology and Reflection: Both leaders reflect on how their staff—and children—have seen them at their worst, and how mutual apology strengthens teams (21:21).

4. Lifelong Growth: Marriage, Staff, and Leadership Parallels

(27:10 – 39:44)

• Leadership Relationships Mirror Family: Long leadership and staff relationships go through ups and downs like marriage (“staff relationships are the same thing” – 27:10). The valleys often precede the next stage of growth.
• "I Should Have Learned This": Patrick and Carey lament how even with experience and access to world-class wisdom, personal growth remains a lifelong and often painful journey.
• The Myth of Arriving: Lencioni notes he's learned more in the last year (age 59) than in any previous year.

5. Patrick’s “Dark Night of the Soul”

(31:04 – 55:04)

• Triggering Events & Taking a Break: Patrick describes how, after years of “white-knuckling,” circumstances (empty nest, business transitions) and loved ones pushed him into a months-long break for deep healing.
• Facing Deep Wounds: He recounts dealing with lifelong wounds: the need to earn love, never feeling “enough,” and perfectionism (“I felt unseen and unaffirmed, and the only way to fix that was to be perfect.” – Patrick, 36:43).
• OCD & Coping: Patrick shares his experiences with OCD, from compulsive behaviors as a child to control issues as an adult. He talks about learning to recognize performing for love in himself and high achievers (39:53).
• Healing Practices: His healing process included spiritual direction, therapy (specifically faith-based), prayer, and time alone—including daily conversations with God inspired by his spiritual director.
• Describing the Darkness: He likens it to “floating in the ocean, not knowing how long you’ll be there” (35:34, 45:34).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “It’s like being in the ocean. It’s dark, you don’t see any lights, and you don’t know how long you’re gonna be out there.” (Patrick on his dark night, 45:34)
• “There is no Easter without Good Friday.” (Patrick, 54:47)
• “Nobody wants Good Friday. They just want Easter.” (Carey, 54:56)
• “All the other things are circumstantial and physical. And yet the idea of letting go and just going, okay, God has all this, was so scary. Cause my whole life had been controlled, right?” (Patrick, 46:19)

6. Re-Entry: Returning to Work Transformed

(57:32 – 66:13)

• Redefining Success: Patrick finds a new joy and patience in the tough parts of leadership (“I’m a better manager than I was before… leaning into suffering, but not like it’s a piling on.” – 58:27).
• Letting Go of Performance: He differentiates cognitive from visceral change regarding striving for legacy or approval—now working for God’s pleasure, not man’s.
• Valuing the Present: Turning 60, Patrick is now “only thinking about the days ahead,” no longer fixated on long-term plans (62:55–63:02).

7. Integrating the Wound and the Gift

(70:39 – 73:11)

• High Achievement Masks Deep Wounds: The drive to perform is often a cover for feeling “not enough”; high-achievers fear losing their edge if they address the wound.
• Finding Redemptive Purpose: Both leaders reflect on how suffering increases capacity to lead and empathize with others. “If God wants to take you deep, it’s because He wants to take you far.” (Carey, 79:47)

8. Practical Wisdom for Leaders in Pain

(77:32 – End)

• For Leaders in a “Dark Night”: Expect repeated seasons of personal work; don’t fear them, and seek to help others amid your pain. (“Instead of going, I wonder if there’s more work to do, go: I wonder what the work is I have to do.” – Patrick, 77:49)
• On Community: The importance of talking openly—healing happens when leaders admit their brokenness to trusted community.

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Timestamps for Major Topics

• 02:32 – Work as Healing & Whole Person Leadership
• 06:24 – Mentoring Young Employees & Balancing Grace/Boundaries
• 15:09 – Setting Boundaries, Conflict, and Vulnerability in Staff Leadership
• 27:10 – Parallels of Leadership Relationships & Marriage Over Decades
• 31:04 – Patrick’s Dark Night: Triggers and Taking a Break
• 35:34 – Living Through the Dark Night of the Soul
• 43:24 – OCD, Coping Mechanisms, and High-Achiever Wounds
• 45:34 – What the Darkness Felt Like
• 54:47 – “No Easter Without Good Friday” – Suffering as Part of the Journey
• 57:32 – Returning to Work & New Approach to Leadership
• 62:55 – Rethinking Success, Performance, and the Future
• 70:39 – The Link Between High Achievement and Wounds
• 77:32 – Encouragement and Advice for Leaders in a Dark Season

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Tone & Notable Exchange

The entire conversation is marked by mutual vulnerability and respect, switching seamlessly from practical leadership advice to spiritual depth and personal confessions. Both leaders model what they preach: a “whole person” approach that embraces imperfection, suffering, and growth as essential strands of the leadership journey.

Memorable Quotes

• Patrick (03:49): “The word company in Latin means ‘to break bread together’... Why would we think that when we get together in our companies, we’re not there to help one another?”
• Patrick (35:34): “It’s like being in the ocean. It’s dark, you don’t see any lights, and you don’t know how long you’re gonna be out there.”
• Carey (54:50): “There is no Easter without Good Friday. Nobody wants Good Friday. They just want Easter.”
• Patrick (77:09): “[In] my dysfunction, in my anger, in my frustration, in my immaturity, I was deeply, deeply loved.”

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Summary of Actionable Takeaways

• Lead Your Team as Whole Persons: See, develop, and heal the whole person, not just their professional skills.
• Balance Grace and Boundaries: Make spiritual discernment central when deciding how to offer care or accountability as a leader.
• Value Vulnerability: Model openness in your own struggles—especially when giving others feedback or correction.
• Lean Into Long-Term Relationships: Expect valleys and hills. Don’t eject people at the first sign of trouble; work through it.
• Get Professional, Faith-Based Help if Needed: Healing from deep wounds may require stepping away, therapy, and spiritual direction—find guides who understand your faith.
• Embrace the Ongoing Nature of Growth: Healing is not a “one and done” event. Expect repeated cycles of wrestling, change, and grace.

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For more resources, community, and detailed show notes, check out the Art of Leadership Academy at: theartofleadershipacademy.com

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Transcript

[A]

The Art of Leadership Network.

[B]

It's like being in the ocean. It's dark, you don't see any lights, and you don't know how long you're going to be out there.

[A]

Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. And as I always say, I hope our conversation today helps you thrive in life and leadership. And, you know, part of thriving is coming back from really difficult periods. And today, Patrick Lencioni joins us to talk about something he hasn't written about. He hasn't talked about much publicly. He had a very recent Dark Night of the soul and we go there. It's a very emotional conversation. I have appreciated Pat's work for over 25 years. I know a lot of you have as well. But what happens when you go through seasons as a leader? So we talk about that. We talk about how work can heal you and about the power of leading next gen leaders. This is a no holds barred conversation that we had in person. I spent a lot of time in Nashville this fall. We recorded it in Franklin, Tennessee. So if you're watching on YouTube, you'll see it. If you're listening, may want to switch to video mode on Spotify or head on over to YouTube and check it out too. It's a great conversation. Patrick Lencioni, as a lot of you know, is one of the founders of the Table group and is the pioneer of the organizational health movement. He is the author of 13 books which have sold over 9 million copies and been translated into more than 30 languages. So if you're going to enjoy this episode, maybe you can share it with somebody. And hey, if you want show notes for this, because we talk about a lot of things, the place to get them is in my Art of Leadership Academy. You can get them absolutely free. Join 20,000 leaders inside the Academy at theartofleadershipacademy.com or just click the link wherever you're listening to this episode. And now my conversation with Pat Lencioni. Patrick, I'm so glad to be together again. We've had a bit of an afternoon of it, but time to roll the cameras.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. We should capture this.

[A]

I know. At some point. At some point.

[B]

I do want to say before we get started though, this shirt is in honor of you.

[A]

Well, thank you.

[B]

As I was very Canadian, the color, the vibe. I was leaving the house today, I said to Laura, I gotta put on a different shirt. I'm gonna see Carrie today.

[A]

Well, I'm honored. And I wore this black T shirt in Honor of I don't know. But it's good we're here in Franklin, Tennessee. Your new home.

[B]

My new home, which we may get to.

[A]

I talked to Henry about moving to Nashville. Henry Cloud about it, but I want to start somewhere different. Cause we spent a day together a couple years ago, and you said something I wrote down. It was one of those things that really captured my immediate attention, made me sit up straight. And you said, people go to work to heal. I thought that was absolutely fascinating. Do you wanna talk a little bit about what's behind that idea?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, God made us to need one another, and we need to be with others to do that. And it's not always with our family. And so we are meant to be with other people in community to get better. And, you know, we talk about professional development, and it's just personal development, improvement. And we all have wounds. And the people that spend the most time with us are the people we work with. Now, very few people have the kind of relationship with their coworkers where they do this, but they should, because we go there seeking to be better. And so I think that work is a great place to begin the healing process. And it's those people who see us and can see the progress every day. And the people I've worked with for 28 years, some of them for 15 years, some of them for six months, they all participate. We participate in one another's healing. And I really do believe that to be the case. And for all those people that are listening to this going, that doesn't happen in my workplace.

[A]

I. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I think it's a shame. The word company in Latin means to break bread together. Isn't that interesting? Some time ago, somebody said, what should we call this thing where we all get together and work? And said, let's call it a company. And it's. We break bread, of course, the Jesus. And so why would we think that when we get together in our companies, we're not there to help one another?

[A]

Well, very similar with even the word corporation. Because in the church space, it's like, this is a corporation. Corporation literally means body.

[B]

Body. Right, right.

[A]

Which is. Which is a fascinating way to think about it. So a couple of. Of of thoughts around that. One of the things, Pat, is that a lot of people, you know, if I put on my boss hat, particularly in my early years, I realize now that this is a place where I have to develop the whole person.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That it's not just, I want to extract your skills and, you know, get what I can from you. But when I was younger, I kind of thought that people should show up to work already healed and ready to go into give. Is that still around as an idea that you want fully functional people? Like, how does that fit in with the personal journey?

[B]

I think people know now that nobody's fully, fully functional. But what they do say still is, keep that to yourself.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

You come to work, put on your best face here, and then whatever problems you have, don't bring it here. We don't really want to talk about it here. Don't overshare. And I think that is completely upside down. Now. There is a such thing as overshariarish. There's people that don't have the right boundaries.

[A]

I can't work because I'm healing.

[B]

Exactly. But I do believe that we are meant to be fully human at work, and we shouldn't. When we do that, when we have to put on that face, then we put our best selves at work and we go home and it's all recovery around the people we love the most. And that's not good. You know how many people are like, I hold on and I white knuckle it at work, and then I go home and I act in the worst way. So I think what we need to do is, when I think about work, life, balance, it's integration of being the whole person. I'm working on something right now that we're calling the whole person project. Because we need to understand that when people come to work, they are everything. They have wounds, they have talents, they have limitations, they have history, they have things going on in their lives. And at the end of the day, how we influence them in that capacity will mean more than the professional stuff we do. I believe that. And that doesn't mean we can't still focus on being really good at the professional stuff we do. But these are human beings.

[A]

So if you go to seminary or you go to even get your mba, nobody really prepares you like in seminary. The idea is that, yeah, you're there to help the congregation, but you don't get any training on staff. So what does it look like when you have a new hire and they come to work to heal as a boss, how do you even get your head around that? Like, what are the things you should be doing, not doing?

[B]

That's a great question, but I wanna say this about seminary. It's really tragic that people get out of seminary and then go to work and they wanna share the gospel and love on people in the congregation, which they should, but you have to start with the people you work with. Now that doesn't mean it's a jobs program. John Ortberg, one of our friends once said, no, nobody should work at a church who needs the job. But if we don't love on the people on staff and think we're gonna love on the people in the pews, that just doesn't work. And what's interesting, and then people come out of MBA school and they learn how to run a business, but they often don't think about the ministry of what they do. I'm working on something right now with the school around understanding the fullness of the ministry of any kind of work. And because we all have a vocation, you know, and so I think that we need to really understand that. Now the question you actually asked me was what? I just forgot.

[A]

Oh, no, like you don't learn this in seminary, you don't learn this in mba. So if I haven't got that as a filter through which I see my leadership lens, where do I start? Because I think, you know, and let me put some color behind that. So often, you know, a boss, let's say you hire a 25 year old, 25 year old, stayed up too late on a weekend and then shows up a little bit bleary eyed on Monday morning. A lot of bosses just roll their eyes and it's like shape up or ship out. Right? That would be a typical response. What's a better response? What's a healthier response?

[B]

Well, and this is where it needs to be a ministry. Mercy and grace apply at work too, but so do boundaries. Which Henry. It's both.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which Henry Cloud wrote about. And we have to love people in truth and we have to pray. I mean, I really think the thing is, like, what's the right. How many chances do you give somebody at work? And there's no easy answer like strike one, strike two, strike three.

[A]

I know that. How many chances do you give someone at work?

[B]

You pray about it and say, God, purify my intentions so that I will know whether I'm enabling this person in a bad way or whether I'm giving them the grace they need to get where they need to go. And if I think that human wisdom can answer that question, because if I know that I'm an instrument in God's hands to help this person, then I turn to him and say, what do you want me to do? And I know we all say that and myself included, but do we ever stop and do that? Like we're having a meeting with a person, we're gonna, how tough should I be on them? How gentle should I be with them? How much should I be holding them accountable? How much should I be giving them grace? I don't think we're supposed to do that, just on how we feel that day. We have to ask God, show me what you want me to do in your hands. So easy to say but so hard to do in the moment when it's like from one meeting to the next. And I don't know who taught this to me, but every one of those meetings is a divine appointment. And man, it's so tragic when we forget that. And I forget it all the time. I'm just going to meetings.

[A]

I do too. I mean, I pray and I pray for my team on the regular basis. But you're right. Going into a difficult meeting, I had one this week. Or I'm like, okay, what am I gonna say? I don't think I prayed about that specifically.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, to get back to answering your question, Carrie, Cause as you're talking, I'm thinking like, oh, yeah, I don't do that either. And I thought one of the things if I were to give somebody advice, it would be be vulnerable. Whenever you're doing. When you go to somebody and say you have to give them tough advice, let them know about something you went through and how it affected you, it opens up other people to receive that.

[A]

You're right. Hey, I remember there was a time when blah, blah, blah, and I think we had a like that this week I need to talk to you about.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I've never done that either. Gosh, this is.

[B]

Cause that 25 year old kid who comes in late because he overslept, whatever else. And the difference between saying, hey, you know, you can't do that and going, hey, you know, when I was your age, I did that. So I get it. And somebody had a tough talk with me. It actually is how I changed. So I'm gonna be that person for you because I care about you. So I really need you to stop doing that. But I get it. The difference between that versus if you do that again, you're out of here.

[A]

So another, another mutual friend, Dave Ramsey, who you know, you've gotten to know quite well, Dave has said, I think on this podcast he's talked about and talked about it elsewhere too. When you get with that younger generation, particularly Gen Z or super young millennials, they tend to be all in or like deadbeats, you know, in typical Dave Language. It's like they either can't earn a paycheck, they're not showing up, they're lazy, or they're so driven that these are the entrepreneurs of the future. One of the things I think a lot of older millennial bosses, Gen X bosses, even a few boomer bosses who are left struggle with, is putting on that parenting hat. And I found, when I've hired super young people, that I almost function as a dad at this stage in my life where I'm like, okay, about getting enough sleep. That is actually important for work. Hey, can I tell you, that's not how you write an email or. Yeah, you're gonna have to pick up the phone and make a call and take responsibility. Like, I'm almost parenting two boys. You parented four. Right. You're parenting. It's not like, we're done. But I had to teach my sons that skill, and now I have to teach a workforce. Is that fair, or am I overstepping?

[B]

No, no, no. You know what's amazing about this, and we think about our kids, is they've heard everything from us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if they hear it from another adult in their life, they'll listen. I mean, I had this with my son today who's in college. I called to ask him a favor, and he's like, do I really have to do that? And I thought, you know, if somebody else asked me this, he'd say, absolutely, I'd do that. And I once, years ago, heard this famous football coach say, every parent needs. And he was a football coach. He said, every young man needs other men in their life to tell them things. And so when we're at work and we think, I shouldn't have to be their parent, we should go, no, no. I get to minister to them because they need their next male, or in our case, male influence in their lives. So when we say to them, hey, I think you need to change this or consider this. That's such a gift, and it is an act of love. Holding it back is not love. And I was just talking to Laura about something around this last night. I'm like, what should I do in this situation? Should I talk to. What's love? Withholding. And sometimes we think withholding is love. Like, well, I don't wanna make them feel bad, and you're not giving them the opportunity to grow.

[A]

That's a good point. So we should expect then to have to mentor them in their lives, not just in their job.

[B]

And let's hope somebody else is doing it for our kids. And their jobs. Now both of us have one son who's working for us.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You've got Matt, I've got Sam.

[B]

And I love it when other people do that. So, please. I'll tell you what. I'll take Sam, you take Matt.

[A]

Okay. That's a good deal. Hey, Sam, good news. I'll let you know. And he's gonna mentor you. That's incredible. No, I think there is almost. I think there was an era, and you and I are old enough where actually we established. We're three months, four months apart, I think.

[B]

We won't say who's older.

[A]

No, no. Well, that would be me. I have more aches and pains than you do, Pat.

[B]

By three months.

[A]

By three months. But I think we remember a time in the workplace where that was almost for both. Like, you wouldn't do that. You would not coach someone on their life because it was just about their performance. And I'm sure there are organizations and leaders who still believe that. Talk about what you think about that.

[B]

Okay, so I think this is. I love this, and I love dealing with these questions in real time. I think that's why core values are so important in an organization. So if you join a place and you know that you have values in common, like, I belong here, and they embrace me, because these two or three core values are what we have in common. That gives you that permission. Cause it's like, I know you value these things like I do. I'm coming at you as a brother or sister in this environment. When you join a company and there's just no core, and there's plenty that don't have real values.

[A]

Sure. Or something on the wall that nobody knows what they mean, then it's kind.

[B]

Of like, well, who are you to do this? But there's something about core values that says we have this in common. And it's probably within the context of those values that I'm gonna talk to you about this stuff. But if we have nothing in common, we just all happen to apply for a job here and get a job here in the company. We don't really all buy into behavior or mission. It does kind of feel weird.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Haystack. When somebody in your church has a question about faith, marriage, doubt, or anxiety, where do they Turn? Google Podcasts? ChatGPT? Well, here's the problem. They're getting answers from strangers, from algorithms and chatbots, but they're not hearing from you. And you probably already preached exactly what they need to hear. But it's buried in your archive, right? Impossible to find. Haystack is an AI powered search engine for everything you've ever preached. Your congregation can ask real questions like why does God allow suffering? And get answers from you, their pastor, someone they trust. Your teaching doesn't have to disappear after Sunday. The series on anxiety from last year. It can help somebody today, so book your demo by grabbing a spot on their calendar at thehaystack AI. Mention this podcast and they'll import your sermon library for free. You'll see how it works with your own content before committing to anything. That's TheHaystack AI. This episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're leading a church and you know there's more in you, I believe there's more in you. And more ahead for your team. I want to personally invite you to something special. September 21st, 23rd, 2026 I'm hosting the Art of Leadership Live this year. It's in Nashville, Tennessee. This isn't a conference where you just sit in a chair for eight hours, listen to talking heads, take notes, and hope something sticks. This is highly interactive. It's practical. It's intentionally designed to help you make real progress on the leadership challenges you're facing right now. So what do we do? Well, we combine focused teaching, meaningful conversations with other leaders, and built in space to think, process, and actually apply what you're learning. So you don't just leave inspired, you leave with clarity and next steps and you do it in community. So I'll tell you this, the leaders who gathered last year absolutely blew me away. The depth of the conversations. We have a lot of conversations. The honesty in the room, the momentum people left with, that's what makes this event so special. So I can't wait to do it again. This time we're in Nashville. One important note, super early bird pricing is almost gone. So if you've been thinking about applying, you have to apply to get in. Now's the time. Once it expires, rates go up for Good. So visit theartofleadershiplive.com to secure the very best pricing. Again, that's theartofleadershiplive dot com I would love to see you in Nashville this September.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, it does. So your values give you permission to speak into it. How do you know you're going too far? I can think about one leader who's on our team again. You know, it's funny, this is a fun part about being in leadership. For a long time. I saw this at the church. And I'm seeing it now in my company where we've recently rehired some people who left for life reasons. It's like, all right, this job isn't fitting anymore. And then it's like, well, actually it's fitting again. It's like, yeah, come on back. And so that's a lot of fun. One of them was, I think 18 or 19 when I hired him. And I ended up almost being like a dad to him and Dylan, you know who I'm talking about. He'd be really comfortable talking about it. But there was a lot of like parenting in the first year or two where I'm like, here's how you write an email and no, you need to get some sleep before you show up for work and don't be late. And little things like that. Right. Well, that fast forward seven, eight years and he's crushing it. I mean, he's owned all that. He's internalized it. But how do you know. And you know the other one who just came back? I first met her when she was 18 and hired her at 22, which is great. And that was like almost 20 years ago.

[B]

And she's coming back too.

[A]

She's coming back now. Yeah. Her kids are at the stage where they're in school and she's got a more stable kind of schedule. And so she's helping us out with some stuff on the team, which is amazing. She was my EA for 10 years.

[B]

So I have a woman in our office, Jackie and Jackie Collins. Jackie Finn. Now, we hired her right out of college. Yeah. And she has a great dad and mom. Much older than me, not much months older than me. But she did say that I was like a dad to her because it was her first job. And then she became like a sibling to my boys. An older sister. Sure. And we loved that. And she just stepped out. Cause she had her third child and it's been so painful.

[A]

But three seems to be the deal breaker.

[B]

And the thing is about it though is like, I can't wait for her to go. I wanna re engage.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Because we were part of one another's family now. But the original question was, what's too far?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And here's the. It's like people always ask me, hey, when do people have too much conflict at work? And everybody wants that story. Cause it makes for interesting stuff. 19 out of 20 times, maybe 99 out of a hundred. There's too little.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, yes, it's interesting to talk about. Remember that time when that guy was just screaming in that guy's face, and they almost came to blows. Okay. For every one of those, there's 99. And in churches, it's like this, too, where they just didn't say what they needed to say.

[A]

Okay, that's interesting.

[B]

And I think it's the same in this. I think most people err on the side of, oh, I shouldn't go there, when really, the other person would benefit from it. And I think the reason why is because in the short term, it's gonna be uncomfortable. It's rare that you're gonna say to that kid, hey, you know, I think you need to. They're gonna go, thanks, mister. You're the best. You're just like a dad I never had.

[A]

That was swell.

[B]

In the moment, they're gonna be like, oh, this is uncomfortable. But look at the people that you're talking about. They will look back and say, that was the best thing that could have happened to me.

[A]

Man, oh, man. You know what? Okay, so this is a case study, and I better send this to Dylan and Sarah before it airs just to make sure they're good with it. We don't need to cut it out. But when you're mentioning conflict at work with both of them. So first of all, when I hired someone, even seven years ago or 20 years ago, in Sarah's case, I was a different leader. I was not nearly as emotionally regulated at 40 as I am at 60. Okay. You're resonating, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're writing these books. But on the other hand, sometimes, you know, I would have meltdowns behind the scenes.

[B]

Well, you know, and here's the thing. We talked about the healing. They were part of our healing.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

It's not just. I mean, like, my kids saw me at a less good dad than I am today, and so they've been part of this too. One of the things I've learned is that the power of saying I'm sorry to my children and letting them understand that I've grown. And so these employees that we have when we're younger saw us do the wrong things. And if we can go to them and say, hey, I'm sorry, that even a year later, we can go back and go, I just realized how inappropriate that was or how unfair I was to you. That's part of that joint healing. So it's not just parent to child, manager to employee. It's. We're in this together.

[A]

Right. And they made me better. But, you know, there were Times where I would get really upset in different situations. Sometimes at them, sometimes at myself, sometimes at the situation where it was almost like a family dynamic where it wasn't just conflict at work, but we had to, like, get on another call to patch it up and, you know, or have another face to face to patch it up. Almost like you do in a family, almost like you do in a marriage.

[B]

I had an off site with my team, Cody, Tracy and Karen, the leadership team of our company. And I've worked with Karen and Tracy for 30 years now. Our company's been around 28. They were definitely we worked with before, and then Cody and I have worked together. I'm terrible at dates. I don't know if it's 12 or 15 years, but it seems like forever.

[A]

He's been around a while.

[B]

Yeah. So we had an off site recently, and we had come to another one of those points. And I was sitting there that day, thank you, God. And I said, I think we need to go a little deeper. Because we'd gone into different locations, we were working remotely, Things had been happening, and it's easy to get to lose. And I said, I think that we need to have. We need to tell each other things that we may have been holding back for over the years. And we did. And it was unbelievable how much we didn't know. We had more depth to grow closer together. And it wasn't like doing it just to be weird. It was like, are there things we're holding back? And some of it was done in what we thought was kindness. And we just never said to somebody, hey, when you do that, that's really hard for me. And I don't think it's good for you either. And there was tears and there was appreciation, and there was this amazing sense of growth. And we all said, we keep thinking we've plateaued in our relationship. It's just like marriage, and we can go further now. My marriage is the most important relationship, and I have 100%. And if my marriage isn't good, it's really tough for me to pour into my team. But, man, it requires the same kind of. We're gonna re engage in an uncomfortable conversation out of love with pure intentions, and amazing things happen. So back to the question, what's too much? Usually we do too little too much is usually when a person is so wounded that. And everybody kind of knows it. Exactly right. And that's what we have to say. Hey, we need you to go deal with that on your own.

[A]

Yeah. To the extent that you're comfortable because I've got my team members in real time feeding back to me things that are not helpful. Right. Like my assistant. My current assistant Katie, would say stuff to me like, it feels like you get really upset when I do this. And I'm like, well, yeah, but I don't know whether I'm upset with myself or I don't know whether I'm upset with you or I don't know. We worked through it, but can you give me an example of, like, in that powwow you had with your leadership team, of some feedback they gave you and just to the extent that you're comfortable?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That would have been hard for them to say. Potentially hard for you to hear, but that made it better.

[B]

Yeah. So we. Yeah, I'll give you a. This was a tough one to hear, but it was. So the only thing worse than hearing it was not hearing it and not being able to address it. We've worked together for a long time, and there was a concern that, like, maybe you think it's time for me to leave, which was not on my mind at all. And maybe if I did, you would forget about me. And I was like, oh, no. Cause there was things I did that made them think that might be true. And it gave me the chance to assure them and to, like, in very meaningful ways of what they do for the company and for me and for the team that I didn't realize they needed to hear. Cause we all assume everybody else is perfectly secure and we're the only insecure ones, but everybody needs to be reminded. And then it also allowed me to say, so what do I do? Or what's happened that makes you think, if you were to do that, I wouldn't care about you.

[A]

You went deeper. And I needed to learn more about that.

[B]

And I needed to understand. Own it. Another thing I wanna say on a lighter note, what I've been told for years. Cause it gets back to that regulation, is I get a face. And they call it the face you've got. And they were able to go, now, hey, you've got the face. I go, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And the face I don't think I can completely replicate, but I'm gonna try. And what the bubble shows, what I'm thinking is, I'm annoyed by this situation and I'm a little frustrated with you. But the face is this.

[A]

Yeah, I'd be freaked out too fast. Right?

[B]

And they're like, what's with the face? I'm like, what do you Mean, and you know what I've kind of learned through healing is what happens is I go through this thing like I'm not worthy of being frustrated with somebody. So I hold it back and then by the time it comes out, it comes out like that. Whereas earlier if I just said, hey, this is kind of frustrating to me, and I'm allowed to say that to you, but I always felt like I'm not supposed to be frustrated. I'm not supposed to do that. Cause I didn't think I was worthy to say, what you're doing is frustrating. And then it would come out worse.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I'm just kind of framing this in real time, but like 20 years working with people, multiple decades. We've been part of our church for 30 years, so there's some three decade relationships. Of course, I was the lead pastor for 20 of those 30 years. So, you know, when you look at all of these relationships that now go back decades. This is a long question, but I'll get to a question. You and I, when we first connected after lunch. Today, we're talking about our marriages. You and Laura have been married 33, Tony and I, 35 years. And so how's it going? And you're like, man, it's like the best it's ever been. And I would say we're there too. But then you were quick to say, but people don't realize. It was like Valley and then Hill and then Valley and Hill. And Tony and I absolutely were pretty public about the challenges that we've had together. But, like, staff relationships are the same thing. And you and Matt, who you work with, Sam and I, who we work with, you know, we've had three decades of ups and downs together and a lot of leaders. It's really easy if I just have my leadership hat on, to think, well, there's a down in this relationship, so clearly this person needs to go, you really shouldn't do that in marriage. You can't do that in parenting. And. And what I'm realizing is all of these relationships that are now decades long have been through all kinds of tension points.

[B]

Exactly. And this is one of the things we talked about as a team recently. It's like after you've had a few levels of success, it's crazy. It's like you hit the next hill and you go, oh, gosh, we shouldn't still be having hills to climb now.

[A]

Like, are we not done with the conflict at the meetings?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so. And it's. And it's Interesting. Like the first one, you go, well, this is what you need to be successful. And then you. And the thing is, it's the growth curve. I remember hearing years ago, where throughout life it goes like this, and then it goes like this. There's these dips, and that's where the next thing comes from. But there comes a point where you go, and I know marriages break up like this. People are like, we've been married for 30 years. I can't believe we're going through this now. And it's like. And people go, I'm out. And it's like, no, you were just about at the next one.

[A]

And there's a part of me, Pat, that says I should be smarter than this now to go through an other valley.

[B]

I should.

[A]

I've read enough books, listened to enough podcasts, met with enough world class leaders that I should be able to figure this out. And I haven't got it figured out yet. Do you struggle with that?

[B]

Of course. What do you do? It's like, I am not God. He is. I am a sinner, I am flawed, and I will be until the day I die. And each time that happens, I have to go, wow, I had to learn a new thing or relearn an old thing again. It happens every day in small ways, every year in a few big ones. And I think that maybe we have to reset our expectations to think. I mean, like, I honestly think I've learned more. In fact, I have in the last year of my life than any life any year before.

[A]

How so?

[B]

Well, I went through a healing process where I stepped out of work for a number of months and did full time prayer, spiritual direction, therapy, and a lot of alone time. And I did not realize how much had happened in my life that I needed to deal with. Well, if that happened at age 59, then what else do I have, you know? And, you know, you hear about this in the Bible. People like Ken Blanchard used to always say, nobody did anything until they were 70. You know what I mean? And yet we have this idea that, oh no, all the learning is done. And so when we make a mistake, when we get older, we think, oh, man, what a loser I am. It's like, no, there's more learning. And even in my faith, I feel like I know God better than I've ever known him. But I also realize how little I know him. Whereas 20 years ago I'd have probably thought, well, I'm pretty close.

[A]

I'm glad you raised that because I wanted to talk to you about that you took a. I guess. Would you call it a sabbatical? Was it a sabbatical?

[B]

Well, it's a bad word. I joke about it.

[A]

Cause I didn't golf or you didn't have any fun?

[B]

No, it was dark.

[A]

Really.

[B]

Okay. And, I mean, God was there with me the whole time, but it was the hardest thing I'd ever gone through in my life.

[A]

Let's back up to the extent that you're comfortable talking about it. What? Like, was it just on the calendar or were there factors that led you to think, oh, I need to get away, or was it an intervention where people said, you have to get away?

[B]

Well, there was all of those things. I knew I needed to, but I didn't know I could. And of course, you always can. You know what I mean? It's like.

[A]

So you knew you needed to. Let's stop right there for a minute. You knew you needed to, but you didn't know that you could. You're talking to every single leader out there right now who's like, well, I would, but you don't understand. Next month and the month after and the month after. And then I got this book deadline. I gotta write sermons, you know, and.

[B]

I think circumstances sometimes, you know, what do they say? What's the motherhood of? Necessity is the motherhood of invention.

[A]

Yeah. Necessity is mother of invention. Yeah.

[B]

And I think sometimes circumstances make you go, okay, I have to do this. So my youngest son had gone away to college.

[A]

Big moment.

[B]

So for the longest time, you're holding on, you're just like, hey, whatever I have, I have to make sure. So now I'm an empty nester. And that wasn't just that that was hard. It was just that. Okay, I don't have an excuse. Cause the last thing I would want to do is check out in the middle of his departure final year. So he's away at college. And there were other things going on. We were preparing to move, and there were all kinds of other things going on in my life and in the business. And I finally. I really hit the wall. And the people I worked with and my wife were like, no, this is the time.

[A]

Really? So they saw it?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[A]

What did the wall look like for you? Oh.

[B]

It looks like desperation and hopelessness. And for my case, I just had, you know, Henry Cloud. I can't believe you were talking this morning. Five years ago, I said to Henry, hey, Henry, what's going on with me? And he said, pat, I think you got some childhood wounds you haven't dealt with which began me the process of looking at those. And I finally got to that place. It's like, okay, now I have to.

[C]

Go all the way back.

[A]

Okay, so you went into a deep dive.

[B]

Yes. And literally for five months, I spent most of it by myself doing spiritual direction, prayer, watching every YouTube video about spiritual growth and personal growth and going to therapists, and it was like. And disconnected from work. So scary.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Glu Pastors. I want to ask you something. Do you ever feel like Sunday is the part that you're called to, but Monday is the part that breaks you? You preach one message, and then you're supposed to stretch it into a whole week of ministry. Content, emails, social, small group questions, next steps. And it can feel like the content hamster wheel never stops. Well, if you felt that way, I've got Brad Hill here from Glue. So, Brad, what is Glue Content Studio? And why should a pastor care?

[C]

Thanks, Carrie. You know, Glue Content Studio is built around the same simple idea. One message can power a whole week of ministry. So you drop in your sermon and outline notes or transcript, and Content Studio helps you multiply it into what your church actually needs during the week. We're talking about clear sermon summaries, social posts that actually sound like you, small group discussion prompts, practical next steps for your people and more that you. You can imagine. So instead of staring at a blank screen on Monday, you're building from what God already gave you for Sunday. And it kind of helps Carrie stop this Monday burnout and lets your message go farther than a single weekend.

[A]

Well, that's huge. And it's all with the click of a button. So if you want to reclaim your Mondays and extend the impact of your preaching, check out GLU Content Studio. All you have to do is go to glue dot com. Carrie, that's G-L-O-O.com C-R-E y and you can try it today. No. It is terrifying. I'm glad you used that word.

[B]

Oh, untethered.

[A]

Why was it scary?

[B]

Because I'd never done it in my life. Because, one, I had to face some things about my past, and I had no, you know, swim lanes. I was out there in the dark, in the water, floating in the ocean, not knowing, like, I didn't have any day schedule. I didn't have anybody around. I needed to go through it like that. I had God, and he said, I'll take you through this. But, you know, it's a dark night of the soul.

[A]

So your wife, your team members, Tap you on the shoulder. What are they saying?

[B]

Yeah, it's like, it's time to deal with this.

[A]

How was that showing up in your day to day work? What was going on inside you beforehand?

[B]

Wow. I was getting very emotional and I had a few moments of tears that were bigger than understandable. All people have tears. And there was way more there. And it had nothing to do with work, it had nothing to do with my marriage, it had nothing to do with my sons, although I thought it might have. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

Those are not the issues.

[B]

No, they're triggers. Something goes wrong at work, something goes wrong with Laura, something goes wrong with my boys, and then it triggers the deeper issues that I'd never really fully dealt with. So that's what I did for five and six months. I just went deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. And I'm still in the process, but it's like, whoa. I went through this really deep thing where I had to confront things and deal with them and literally feel the feelings that I'd never allowed myself to feel since I was 5 years old.

[A]

What were some of those feelings?

[B]

Oh, that. And these are very common among a lot of people, but they're different in everybody. But one that I needed to earn everything, that I was never enough, and that I felt unseen and unaffirmed, and that the only way to fix that was to be perfect. And I can't tell you how many high achievers I talked to who say, oh, I've told people my story, like, quickly. And they're like, oh, yeah, I never feel like I'm enough. And I actually think when somebody says, hey, I'm a high achiever almost to a person, it's like, oh, that's a wound. Cause we all should be like, I love this and I love to do this, but I don't have to do it. But there's so many people that have to get to the next stage and have to get to the next stage. And we're all hoping that, well, at one point I'll feel loved for that and I'll be done. And it just never happens unless we know the love of God. And if we didn't get that when we were little, and God bless my parents, but they didn't know how to do that. If you don't get that when you're little, you're looking for a substitute for the rest of your life. Praise God that I didn't seek it in other women or in drugs or alcohol, but I have no judgment for people who did.

[A]

Cause usually you get empathy, don't you?

[B]

Totally. I don't have any judgment for people who go through those things when they realize I'm doing that. Cause I'm trying to fill up that hole that only God can fill and receiving his love. And so, I mean, what a gratitude thing. God, you didn't hurt my family. Like, I mean, I was not all the person I needed to be, but I didn't cheat on my wife or do something to the kids or hurt the family and. Or gamble away all of our money or take drugs or alcohol or crash the car. But it was the same. So I have no judgment for people who go through those things knowing that they're just wounded.

[A]

So you felt that. The performance. What else did you discover?

[B]

Wow, those were the biggies. I know there's more, but that is enough, man. Yeah. And what I needed to do is know that I'm a noun, not a verb. You know, that I'm God's son just cause I am. And I don't want to get teary here, but I have this priest friend who says to me, now, you know, God loves. He's like, does God love you? And I'm like, yeah, I know it. Sometimes I don't feel it. He talks about that distance. And so I just need to realize, no, it's not because of what I do. It's because he made me. That's what the priest always says. Well, he made you and he loves you. Just because you exist, that's not easy. That hasn't been easy in my life to receive. You know what's funny? I see it in others. I mean, I can sit here with you and go, oh, he totally loves you. I can totally see why he delights in you. But if I didn't receive that as a kid, I'm like, I'm just not sure it's true for me. But I'm coming to realize that more and more. It's a process, but totally compared to where I was a year ago. Oh, thank God. So we didn't know we were gonna talk about this.

[A]

Oh, we did not know. And thank you for opening up. Cause we've all been there. Performance as a substitute for love. That's my wound as well.

[B]

Yeah. And people will go, yeah, but look, it worked. So I had OCD since I was a little kid. But that's just a form of. I realize. And the clinicians back then are like, here, you should take this drug. And it's like, no, there's wounds that they never talked about, like, why would you do that? Well, it's because I wanted control, and I needed some control in a world where I didn't have any. And so I learned to be a. I got straight A's in school. And I was a distance runner. And people were like. People used to say, well, that OCD look, it. It makes you a good distance runner. You got good grades. And you're like, oh, it's not worth it.

[A]

What does OCD look like for you? Or did it look like for you?

[B]

Well, it's changed over the years, but I used to wash my hands all the time, and then I'd count things all the time, and I would have to touch things a certain number of. I mean, it's evolved over the years. Today, what really remains from it is I have these kind of subconscious things. I do. And it's so fun. Cause you may have seen me do it. We drove over here today, and I do this on the steering wheel. I touch the steering wheel, my hand, like, I tap my hand and I go like this. And I think it's going for it.

[A]

On the way home. Yeah.

[B]

Because my kids will go, yeah, you do that all the time, dad. But I used to do those things consciously. Like I have to go walk through the door again, because otherwise something bad will happen to. To me or to the world or to my family.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I remember once when I was. When I was first started my job, and I had this my whole life, taking my tie off and retying it eight times. Because eight was a good number. Do you know what it's like when you get to the fifth one and you're standing there going, I can't believe I'm doing this. This is so stupid. Just put the. Leave the tie on and you're untying it and you're tying it again. That. It's. It's cruel. It's a cruel disease. Praise God for healing.

[A]

It's hard, you know, I can see in myself.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It was weird, I think. You know, I joke that I'm ocd. We always joke about these things, but I'm more like just everything has to be neat, tidy. Drives Tony crazy sometimes.

[B]

My wife and I are that way, too. I like a minimalist clean house.

[A]

I have beautiful offices. We toured them. They're gorgeous.

[B]

Oh, you should. And at home. And I love my wife and she. We know our personalities. I delight in her messiness now. I mean, I really do. I'm like, that's great progress. Pat. But then we have parts of the house. I'm like, could we please just keep these rooms clean? And we laugh about it. So I do like that. Independent of my ocd. I prefer a clutter free world. But anyway, you were saying about.

[A]

Yeah, no, I could see myself. Like, I remember walking on sidewalks and having to touch the crack between the different slabs and thinking bad things would happen to my mom or bad things. I've never talked about this before ever.

[B]

Did it.

[A]

Ever.

[B]

Did any of those continue as you got older?

[A]

They actually went away.

[B]

See, most kids have that when they're young, and when you have some of these other things, you don't let go.

[A]

But I realized my clean compulsion, some of that, I think, is epigenetic. Like, I've gone to Holland and realized, oh, they really are insanely clean. Like, insanely clean. And I'm not, like, using hand sanitizer and, like, disinfecting the room before I walk into it. That's not it. It's just like a mess is a mess, and I can't. I can't stand it. And I find most people at the top. You've worked with the top CEOs in the world for decades now. They're driven like that. Yeah, I rarely. Once in a while, I had a Prof. In law school who had an office that looked like an episode of Hoarders. Like papers from the.

[B]

That's my wife. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. And she's brilliant and wonderful and creative.

[A]

Yeah. And her office, there's just piles everywhere. Right.

[B]

It's delightful now.

[A]

Good. How did you get to the fact that that is delightful? Because I'm not there.

[B]

Because I realized, man, I love her and I love everything about her. And some of it is something she wants to get better at, some of it she doesn't have to, but I'm gonna love all of her. Okay, so, you know, working genius. We have the working genius. So Laura is a wi. And working genius.

[A]

So that's the highest wonder and invention.

[B]

Wonder and invention. It's like in the clouds and peeking their head out of the clouds.

[A]

Tony has wonder. And I'm like, sorry, what were we talking about? Can we just get to practical?

[B]

And I'm next. I'm an intro. I mean, not an introvert, an innovation like her. And discernment. So, like, you ID.

[A]

Yeah, we're both IDs.

[B]

Well, so Laura is even less practical than I am, and I'm not practical. But when we were raising the kids, I didn't know what working genius was. And she Took on the duties of a lot of the household maintenance stuff. And we used to really argue. I'm like, hey, how come this happened? How come this happened? And now I go, oh, gosh, I can't believe it didn't happen more. And so when she forgets to do something now or something falls through the cracks, I can literally just go, this is who we are. And I love you.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

And, yeah, it's gonna cause a little bit of pain for us, but let's celebrate that. But it's taken Laura a while to realize I actually can love that about her, too.

[A]

As a devout Roman Catholic, you're familiar with the mystics and the dark night of the soul. We had talked in a previous episode, actually our other in person one, which I think was audio only. You talked about your burnout, your crash a couple of decades ago.

[B]

That was a precursor to all of this.

[A]

Oh, so this was.

[B]

That was it. I got through it, and I could white knuckle it after that. So that was all the precursor.

[A]

And then this was the finally going there. So was this your dark night of the soul?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What does that mean to you?

[B]

It's like being in the ocean. It's dark, you don't see any lights, and you don't know how long you're gonna be out there. Complete dependence on God. And, oh, boy, did I read a lot of. There's a saint called Saint Faustina, who. A saint from only, like, 70 years ago, 80 years ago, and she wrote this diary. Jesus talked to her. And I would read in there, and it was so. She suffered so much, but she was so hopeful and joyful in the midst of it. And I, like, would read it and just go, oh, I need to hear this. And there were so many things, so many saints and so many scripture readings that I was just, like, clinging to because it's all I had. And, you know, it's all we all have at the end of the day. All the other things are circumstantial and physical. And yet the idea of letting go and just going, okay, God has all this was so scary. Cause my whole life had been controlled, right? I had to control outcomes. I had to control how I was seen. My grades, the sports, the job, the career, the money. And it's like, no, no, no. Actually, there's no control. So God took me through that. It was frightening and horrible. And it's like you come out the other side feeling like, okay, now I just have to not get reattached.

[A]

So you went to Therapists, Yeah. Read a lot.

[B]

Christian therapists. I will tell you, it was a huge difference maker.

[A]

Had you been to other therapists before?

[B]

Oh, yeah, throughout my life for my ocd.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And it's one of the biggest problems in America is that faith and therapy have been disconnected for years. It's one of the biggest problems we talked about. We were born in 1965. In that time has been the era of therapy, but godless therapy, a lot of it. So I actually went to a therapist and I told him my faith story and everything else. And he was mildly disinterested. And then he worked with me on my OCD and behavior, you know, CBT and all this stuff. And six months later, I was like, yeah, okay, I think we've run our course here. And I said, I gotta ask you a question, though. I said, I told you about my Christian faith and things that have happened in my life, miraculous things in my faith. And you never commented on it. And I'm just wondering, what do you do with this with faith? And he goes, and I told him about my Christian faith. He said, pat, when I was in grad school, they taught me how to deal with. I mean, pick a disorder, pick a demographic, pick a nation, a culture. We learned it all. We never spoke about Christians. He told me that. He was like, that's the one thing. And you know what I think, because the truth is. So it's like, why would you leave that out? And so when I started going to therapist and Henry told me to do this too, we pray with them and we give things to God and we engage in therapy, real therapeutic methods. But knowing that I'm loved by my Father and Jesus suffered more than I could ever suffer. And any suffering I go through, he went through. And Mary, fully human, stood at his feet and watched him suffer. And if she could do that, oh, and she could be with me, and God was taking care of me. So faith involved in faith based therapy was crazy wonderful.

[A]

Was that the same as spiritual direction or you had a spiritual director?

[B]

I had a spiritual director, a priest who I meet with and we just talk about my prayer life and about moral things. And he's interested in the therapy stuff too. And he's very well known. I mean, well versed in that. But he was talking to me more about. And so here's one. So I'm a Catholic and I really enjoy daily Mass. I did for a long time, but I also have ocd. And so I would go to. Sometimes I'd go to Mass out of Guilt. And he said, I don't want you to go to daily mass anymore unless you want to now. Sunday mass, that's how we're supposed to be. But he said, unless you are really, really, really feeling the desire to. But if there's any, I don't want you to. And he said, I want you to spend 20 minutes with Jesus every day. And this is a priest, and when you go to a spiritual direction, you follow what they say. And I needed that. And so I have a new habit. Every day. I wake up in the morning, I spend 20 minutes in bed just talking to Jesus. And it was a spiritual director, a priest, who helped me see that that was necessary for my healing. And I needed to stop performing and.

[A]

Mass could become a performance. Look, I was there.

[B]

Yeah. And it's not for the other people that are there, but for God. Like. Yeah, yeah. Did you notice I was there again? Yeah.

[A]

A lot of people can relate to that.

[B]

Yeah. And now I can pray and joy and peace because I want to be commune with God rather than I have to get through it.

[A]

So time alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Prayer, spiritual direction, Christian counselor. I always refer people. Good Christian counselor. Not just a Christian counselor. A good Christian counselor.

[B]

It's like a Christian movie.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. But also a Christian. Right. I really believe if Jesus isn't at the center of your healing, you won't be healed. Yeah, I believe that, Pat.

[B]

Oh, he's the healer.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's his name. Right.

[B]

And it's like. And am I supposed to compartmentalize that? I would go to these other counselors, and I could tell they were looking at me like, oh, There was this unstated thought, like, your faith is your problem. They were like, oh, well, oh, okay. But maybe. And so many therapists may be too religious. Right. You should just do whatever you feel like. Your problem is that you feel guilty for doing this thing. Like, conscience doesn't work into that. And faith. And so, anyway, yeah, I think it's really, really important.

[A]

Five months.

[B]

Yeah. My dog Freddy was there most of it. He is the most spiritually adjusted and healthy dog. Even this day, I still do therapy. He comes in and sits next to me for therapy. It's great.

[A]

What was the darkest moment?

[B]

Oh, man. I don't want to think about it, but there were many. There were many just lying on the floor by myself, not seen forward, backward, anything. And just. There were quite a few of those.

[A]

I've been there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've been there.

[B]

And, you know, it's so important to Talk to people who've been there. Because in this world, we send Christmas cards and we post on social media that life is great and there's not a human being I have talked to that hasn't been in a tough place. And yet we walk around acting like it's not us. And when you can talk to somebody and say, oh, yeah, I went through something like that, and when you're in the midst of it and people can tell you that, you're like. And they're like, you're not alone, man. It's like, that doesn't fix it. But, man, it's good to know that it's not just me, because that feeling that nobody else has ever been through this makes you feel like I've done something really terrible. Yeah. Even right now, you saying that is great to hear.

[A]

It's still emotional.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to see a brother go through that, it's hard.

[B]

And you can't help your spouse. You can't go through it for them. Laura had to be away for part of it. She had other things to do, moving here. And when she was around, I would, like, she'd try to help, and I would try to have her help me. And it was like nothing I could. I had to go through it.

[A]

Was there a moment that was like a ray of light or a turning point? And I don't mean like, all of a sudden I woke up and it was all better, because that's not how it goes.

[B]

But I know there were many.

[A]

I had a friend, Craig, who reached out to me and just called me one day, and I was literally lying on the floor, and you know exactly what I'm talking about going, how do I get up? Or whatever. And he just said, hey, I just want you to know it was a very short conversation. I'm praying for you today, and the sun will rise again. And that's all he said.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And boy, oh, boy, that was like the gospel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, Pat, what were some lifelines for you?

[B]

I think understanding Jesus suffering. You know, somebody said this to me the other day. They said we can't. In fact, a therapist, a Christian therapist, a Catholic guy, and I see this wonderful Pentecostal woman who she. And I just. It's wonderful. I love her. But this guy said to understand the suffering that Mary went through, the purity of her and the purity of her son, and standing there watching him suffer and being able to do nothing for him is beyond anything we can imagine because of the purity. And he said that the just extraordinary suffering that we couldn't even imagine to go through that impurity and to go, oh, wow, he really does know what I'm going through and that he could look down from the cross and say, I got it. I know. I know.

[A]

Your son.

[B]

No Easter without Good Friday, man. Yeah.

[A]

There is no Easter without Good Friday. Nobody wants Good Friday.

[B]

No, I know it.

[A]

Nobody wants Good Friday. They just want Easter. Particularly in my evangelical world, we can get to the party before the suffering.

[B]

And in the world in general, you know, I think that in business, in marriage, in life, I think one of the biggest problems we face in our society, and I think it comes in our generation especially, is the purpose of life is to avoid suffering.

[A]

Yes. Well, that's the message we give kids. Right? Yeah. I just want you to be happy.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like actually preparing people to manage unhappiness because it's, you know, and, like, blessed are the poor in spirit.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

We always go. I don't know what that one means. Let's keep going. Okay. I'll try meek. I'll try a peacemaker, but that's important.

[A]

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens, you know. Right, right. We just jump to the parts we like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, another key moment for me and my dark night was in 2006. And I remember seeing my therapist at the time, and he said, well, I've been practicing deconstructive therapy on you. And I'm like, good. Did you happen to study reconstructive therapy? Like, it would be good to. It'll begin to get.

[B]

We're going to leave it right there.

[A]

We're going to leave it right there. We're just going to leave you on the operating table. We're out of sutures. There was reconstruction that happened, which was just. And he said to me, he said. He said, this is a very dark moment. And he said, you will come through. Oh, wow. But he said, I want you to remember what it feels like because there will be other people and you'll be able to help them. And some of them may not come out of it, but I want you to never forget what it feels like. And that was the beginning of a turning point for me. We're about a month later, I started to see little flickers of light and hope and joy return. Just flickers. Oh, it's a dark room, and all of a sudden there's a flash.

[B]

Oh, yeah. There were so many of those.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you're like, okay, when's the next one? Yeah. Okay. Got it. Fast.

[A]

What was that, like, for you, as the reconstruction, I assume, started.

[B]

Yeah, I can't recall all of it. Sure. Cause I don't notice things sometimes. You know, you notice the pain, but.

[A]

You don't notice getting better.

[B]

Yeah. And then one day you go, whoa.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so. Yeah, I don't know. But I stand here today and I go, I enjoy simple things so much more. And wow, do I enjoy the company of my wife and friends and my dog. I mean, it's so crazy. And I can't hold onto it. See, I grew up. Hold on to everything.

[A]

Hold on to your wife. Hold on to what you got, what you built the books.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like, nope, none of that. None of that matters ultimately.

[A]

How did you know you were ready to go back to work?

[B]

Um, you know, it was a gradual thing, but I was like, I think I'm ready to. I think the. I. I needed the business and the business needed me. It couldn't be one way. Only if it, oh, the business needs me, but I can't do this. Or it couldn't be, I need the business, but I'm not gonna be good for them. I. I actually got to the point where I could see is, oh yeah, and God bless them. Cause during that time, they just held on and kept the wheels moving. But there came a time when I realized, oh yeah, it's a mutually good.

[A]

Thing now that I love to work. I feel called to this.

[B]

Yes. And they were so great. And Laura too, because they were like, no, we want you to do what you're meant to do. But what's interesting, Carrie, this is so interesting. When I came back to work, not only did I lean in more to the things that I think God called me to do, but the things that I don't like to do but that are necessary to. I leaned into that too.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Like I'm a better manager than I was before.

[A]

How so?

[B]

Well, I think that when you're wounded, it's just really hard to do hard things. Cause you're already so self flagellating and so now I can.

[A]

And that was you self flagellating?

[B]

Yeah. And it was like, I don't want to have to do this anymore. When I came back, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna. I wanna pour into this person and be patient and help things get back on their feet and. And there's gonna be a little suffering mine and others, and I'm gonna wade into that. And so now when hard things happen, I'm so much less likely to complain. I don't get to face anymore. Certainly not very much. And so I'm kind of leaning into the suffering, but not like it's a piling on. It's more like, oh, this is the suffering God has for me today. I will do this. You can't do that when you're already whipping yourself.

[A]

We're always in the process of renegotiating how we interact. But you mentioned performance and success and control. So now probably not fully a year on the other side of that journey. How is your relationship? How has your relationship with success and performance and control, how has that changed?

[B]

It's very different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I knew before that it needed to be different. I always knew that, like, legacy and fame was not worth anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there's a difference between knowing it and actually going through this.

[A]

So. So you kind of knew that cognitively.

[B]

That the whole knowing and knowing, like in the Bible they talk about and, you know, like. And like the deepest form of knowing a man and his wife, like, he knew her. I mean, that's like knowing, you know. And so I knew that, like, well, I met all these famous people and they weren't really happy in it. And I'm like, oh, I can tell that doesn't work. And then. So why are you still working so hard? It's like, I don't know what I know. And so going through that has allowed me to step back more when I'm working on things and just connect to the people that would benefit from it and to serving God through that. And what's amazing is I'm doing more things that I love than I've ever done. I think it's because I'm holding on a lot less tightly to things.

[A]

How did the company do when you were away?

[B]

They held on and they did great. One of the things I learned from them is that they actually missed me and needed me. I never believed it.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I never believed it.

[A]

Cause I mean, it's the table group, but your name is synonymous with the table group.

[B]

You know something. And they would say that too. And it was kind of annoying to them. Cause I would say, I didn't think you would miss me. I thought it would be a positive. And they would go, but we love you. Well, the truth is, I didn't know it. And coming out of this, I was like, hey, the people I work with do love me. And it was so painful for them. Cause they're like, what can we do to show it to you? And it was like, it's not you, It's Me.

[A]

What was the block there?

[B]

Well, it's that I grew up. Growing up, I didn't ever have unconditional love. And so I didn't know why anyone would love me. You know, it's like. And, and, and it's all performance based. So yeah, we're. I'm raking money and we're paying you and you have a good job. And I was. And, and I thought they love me because I'm useful to them and that's insulting to them because they really did love me, but I couldn't feel it. And so coming back, I was like, these people actually. And I like to tell people, like, I love you. And then I say, I also like you. I say it to my kids. Cause I was like, yeah, you love me, you gotta love. No, no, no. I liked you. I like you too. And I was like, oh, wait. When I'm around them, they actually see the good I can do and they understand the gifts I bring to the company. Before, I mean, I did not take a lot of joy in the things I did. I thought, oh, I'm just trying to keep up. I mean, which is a crazy thing. And so they did a great job holding things together. They didn't know what to do for me. And now we're in a. Our relationships are stronger and we're all figuring out what we do more and we're loving on each other and things are going great. And Cody, Karen and Tracy are. I'm closer to them than ever. And they know that I feel terrible for what they had to go through while I was going through it. But they would say, no, that's what we do.

[A]

We both had a milestone birthday this year. Turning 60.

[B]

Yeah. How about that?

[A]

Yeah, I know. And when you think about the decades ahead, what excites you? What goes through your mind?

[B]

I think I'm pretty clear now that I should only think about the days ahead.

[A]

Ah, interesting.

[B]

Because, see, my whole life, because I was in control, I wanted to like, how does this play out? You know, like enfp in Myers Briggs, we live in the future. Sps, you know, in the Myers Briggs live in the present. Sjs live in the past. We live in the future. Like, well, what's the future?

[A]

Hold.

[B]

What's the future? I've been at more things where I'm like, okay, this is fun, but what's coming next? And now I realize, no, no, no. I'm just gonna look forward to tonight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't even know. Cause the truth is, God could take me right now. The economy could collapse tomorrow. Who knows what's gonna happen in the world? And you think about these Christians that are dying for their faith in Africa right now. I'm pretty sure they're best laid plans, you know? And then the Bible, like, oh, I built the silos and the shrubs, and everything's perfect. It's like, you fool. Tonight your life is go taken from you. So I'm actually learning not to live in the future at all. And it's awesome.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I am less worried about what life is gonna be like in a decade and more excited about what I get to do today. Yes, I'm working on a book. I'm excited about the book. I hope it does well, but I haven't got the ambitions I maybe did for a book 20 years ago. In terms of performance, it's like, yeah, I'm sure it'll sell some copies. I think it'll be fine.

[B]

Yeah, I wonder about that. Like movies and songs, like artists, musical artists, how so many people write their best songs in their 20s. And I think there's something to be said for the desperation and the panic of being young that makes people do things. And I even think about some of my books, and I look back and I'm like, I remember writing that I was holed up in a hotel room and struggling with this. And now people talk about that book all the time. And when I'm writing now, I'm trying to write out of joy and peace, not out of like, gosh, I hope this is awesome.

[A]

Well, you've written a lot of awesome stuff.

[B]

Well, thank you.

[A]

I mean, this one, Silos, Politics and Turf wars, very, very huge for me.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

That is probably the least mentioned book of all the ones I've written.

[A]

Well, I was, because Jim Collins said the same thing to me because I love how the Mighty Fall. And he goes, nobody ever asked me about that book.

[B]

Well, this book here is the least selling. It's the three big questions for a Frantic family.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

And this is the book of People Go up.

[A]

I haven't read that one.

[B]

No. Yeah. And I haven't looked back at it either. And people are like, oh, yeah, it changed my life. But it's like the least selling. But certainly if you plotted it, it would be the one that people resonate with the most.

[A]

So Silos, Politics and Turf wars is.

[B]

Just probably the second least selling.

[A]

It's a great book. It's a great book.

[B]

I'm gonna go read it again. It's probably been 15 years.

[A]

It is good. It's about a unifying theme. So you don't get factions and divisions or, you know, in church world campus and departments. Oh yeah, you know, your communications people don't talk to your small groups people don't talk. This campus doesn't like that campus.

[B]

The music is fine, the outreach is terrible. I'm doing fine. It's like we're in the same boat.

[A]

It's all gonna sing the same mission. You know, my company, it doesn't matter if customer service is doing great. And the podcast isn't like we're all in the same boat. Right? Yeah. So that's great. So you approach it more out of joy now and delight.

[B]

Yeah, and not just not my own, but more like just last night I was at this dinner and this husband and wife got up to speak and he's an entrepreneur. And it was this awesome. And I was like, is this going to be boring? Because they were just asking them questions about their marriage and about entrepreneurship and it was amazing. And. And they asked him about entrepreneurship and he said, cause he's an entrepreneur. And he said, you know, you're gonna be okay when you see a problem and you feel the pain of it and nobody else is doing anything about it. Cause it's in that understanding of the pain that, you know, you're gonna be able to provide something that people need as opposed to going, I wanna be an entrepreneur, what should I do? What should I do? And then you come up with an idea. But it's like. And I'm actually realizing that much of what I've written about comes from my own, like, curiosity and struggle and frustration. And what you and I have been talking about over the last year, what I've gone through. When I was going through it, I was not letting myself think, Carrie, like, oh, I'm gonna write a book on this. I'm write a book. I'm not going to. I said, this is not about that. But there was an ancillary problem that I realized I was always curious and in pain about. And that is how do you get started in just understanding yourself and thinking about how you're gonna improve and like, early, early, early, I'm an on ramp guy. And so I realized I wanna help other people on ramp to what they might need to understand about themselves. And maybe it'll take them to where I got. Maybe it'll take em to a coach, maybe it'll take em to a program on the Internet or a book. But nobody ever made it easy for me to on ramp. And I think about this in terms.

[A]

Of like, on ramp. You mean to on ramp. You mean what?

[B]

Begin moving forward and saying, who am I? Is there some low hanging fruit here that I might need to start with? And in faith, I'm always interested in on ramps because I'll meet with people and I'll say, so how do you evangelize? And they're like, well, you know, it's the kerygma. Do you know what that word means? It's the Greek word for gospel. And I'm like, don't say that. Nobody knows what that means. They're like, well, you know, you have to understand the exegesis or whatever else. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so I am an on ramp guy where I like to go back and say things that people go, oh, I never really understood this. And like, I'll talk to priests and ministers at church and I'll say, hey, when you get up to read something from the Bible, give a little context. Cause they don't really know who the Corinthians are.

[A]

No, they really don't.

[B]

And they're like, what do you mean they don't know? They don't. 10% do. And then 90% you go, hey, let me tell you where Corinth is and remember what was going on and why Paul's writing to them. And by the way, if Paul's in prison, I want you to think about this. It takes 15 seconds. And 90% of the people go, thank you for doing that. Cause they're all sitting there going, well, I guess everybody else knows who the Corinthians are but me.

[A]

No, it's true. And even if, you know, sometimes the story, which I think is single digit.

[B]

Yes, I think it was an Old.

[A]

Testament Prof. Who said, the Bible is like a puzzle and all the pieces are out of order. And so, you know, oh, that's Noah, that's Moses. But you don't know whether Noah goes before Moses or after Moses or where Egypt is or where Isaiah is. It's just all a mess on the table.

[B]

You know what's a really cool thing in the Catholic Church is they, they order the readings, like Old Testament Psalm, New Testament gospel, to show the connection. But most of the time the priest doesn't explain, doesn't even do.

[A]

So you're going like, hey, look at this.

[B]

There's a theme. Jesus is connected all the way back to this. And it's like, can you. And I think a lot of times the priests and Ministers go, yeah, people already know this.

[A]

Right? Right.

[B]

No, I don't want to insult.

[A]

Actually, a lot of your seminary colleagues don't know it either.

[B]

Exactly. I always say this like, I think everyone in the world who is a follower of Jesus were meant to want to be saintly, to be holy, to be set aside. Nobody should. Matthew Kelly, a writer, once said, the greatest tragedy is there's so many people that grow up thinking they're not supposed to be a saint. Like, that's for somebody else. And I would like to be a saint. That doesn't mean I'm going to be known for one necessarily or anything like that. But if I were a saint, I'd be the patron saint of the ignorant. I mean, I have a real heart for people that go, I don't get it. I love meeting them, whether it's faith, business, leadership, personal development. It's the ones that go, I was afraid to ask the question because I thought it was dumb. I love those people because I relate to them, you know?

[A]

Boy, it's funny how you can have such a rich conversation about one idea. We go to work to heal.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

When you think about the wounds, having worked with the top leaders in the world and you're super involved in the church space, Roman Catholic and Protestant, evangelical, you know, everybody.

[B]

We have so many friends. I didn't even know we had all.

[A]

These musicians, all these common friends. Pat, when you see wounds, you walk into a C suite, you walk into a church, you just see the wounds. What are the ones that you just keep seeing over?

[B]

Okay, I'm not enough. It's the performance one. Because I see high achievers.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And look at the best athletes, the best artists, the best leaders. Oftentimes their superpower is actually their wound, which says, it's never enough. You go to a football player, it's like, hey, you won three Super Bowls. Oh, yeah, I gotta win another one. And you're like, why it's never enough. And you realize, and that's wonderful for their fans or for the coach, but. But it's like, oh, you're not complete. So I'm never enough. And I have to perform to prove myself. And the reason why I think so many people don't get that addressed is because they think, well, if I address that, maybe I'm going to lose my whole thing. Yes.

[A]

I'm going to lose my superpower if I get healthy. I've talked to John Christ about it. John's coming back on the podcast, and he got, quote, canceled and then went into rehab. And a deep, deep, deep life change.

[B]

Oh, praise God.

[A]

I think he's a comedian.

[B]

Yeah, I know, I know.

[A]

Oh, you know John.

[B]

But I didn't know he went through rehab.

[A]

Yeah, he went through rehab pretty deeply. Talked about it very openly on this podcast.

[B]

I think comedians, more than ministers, more than CEOs, that they are there to make other people laugh. There is such a visceral need, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he talks about it exactly. That he did that on my show where he's like, every time he heard the laugh, it was like somebody was injecting him.

[B]

And you need more and more and more, and eventually, like, it doesn't work anymore.

[A]

Yeah. You could do an arena full of people.

[B]

And he has. Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, I would say he's funnier now than he was before he went through his transformation. And I was scared of that. Like, when I burned out in 2006, I thought, well, all the things that made me a successful leader are gone now. Like, God, you can touch me, fix me, but don't fix that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, don't fix that. You're coming out of the other side of your precursor. And now the dark night of the soul. What do you think happened to that mojo to that thing that drives Patrick Lencioni?

[B]

You know what I think happened to it? I think, first of all, I've replaced my engine with gods. Cause it's. Instead of me being motivated by what I think I need to do, I'm now plugged into, hey, what do you want me to do? Cause truthfully, if God said to me today, tomorrow, I want you to do no more of this, and I want you to go do something else that he put in my heart, and nobody's ever gonna know about it. I'd be like, then I wanna do that. And I think he's improved the steering so much. Because now things are like, I'm able to see where I might go and do things that I think are better. Whereas before, it was like, I have to control this. I have to have the plan. I think every company, every church needs to have a plan. But as they used to say at seventh grade dances, leave room for the Holy Spirit. And that is. But your best plans might be ridiculous. Have one. Because, like, hey, all other things being equal, I think that's where we're gonna go. But he's gonna come along and go, are you flexible enough to go here? And that's where I am now. Like, I know the things I'm working on. I'm very excited. But whatever he Wants from me is all I want.

[A]

And here's the mystery to me. You know, you look at. You had this dark night of the soul at 59. One temptation would be like, well, and everything I did before that was garbage. But it's not.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no.

[A]

These are beautiful, beautiful works that God used to. In the midst of the pain. This is the mystery of our faith. You were broken. I'm broken. We have people that we've worked with for 20 years, women we've been married to for over 30, that kind of thing where he works in the midst of the pain. And I'm sure there are moments in your parenting you wish you could get back 100%. Talk to my boys about that all the time.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

But God is at work in that, and he produced a beautiful lifetime body of work in you so far. And there's much more to come.

[B]

Come.

[A]

When you think about that, what do you think about? Because you look at your previous work, and, dude, it's good.

[B]

I think that. So when I came up with working genius, and I say. And I'll just say, I'm going to steal your water.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I need.

[A]

Drink the water.

[B]

But when working genius came out, your.

[A]

OCD wouldn't allow you to drink my glass of water.

[B]

But germs are not a problem.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Great, great, great. So when that book came about five years ago in my office, I remember very well that for four hours in the midst of coming up with it, my memory was gone. Like, after it was over. I don't remember those four hours very well. I honestly.

[A]

You were whiteboarding it.

[B]

I remember the story, and I remember thinking that was literally. And I know that was God going, it's not yours, it's mine. Because it would be. You would probably have a hard time receiving the. Like, you came up with that?

[A]

Yeah. The working genius.

[B]

And I think he said, I'm gonna give you a grace. I'm gonna kind of black you out just a little bit. And I don't mean, like, I was, like, blacked out, but I don't have the recollection of it, because everything's a gift from God, right? Whether we were super aware of it or not. And in that case, he said, I'm gonna give you this, and you're not gonna remember all the details of it. And it was, like, such a grace, like, this is not me. Which was great, because. And that was not like, oh, no, it wasn't me. It was like freedom. Like, oh, the confirmation that this is not about me.

[A]

And here's the thing that gets me. You know, when you were getting that download, or, you know, this is, I think, 2006, if I remember right. Silos politics.

[B]

And so you might remember it, because I do.

[A]

It came at a very helpful time for me. Pat, as a leader, you were as loved then as you are now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's the thing.

[B]

That's the mystery whether I fully, well, not fully understood it, felt it, accessed it, received it. It was true.

[A]

When.

[B]

Ooh, that's really deep.

[A]

It is really deep. Like, in my dysfunction, in my anger, in my frustration, in my immaturity, I was deeply, deeply loved. And in my enlightened state today, you're.

[B]

Actually loved a little less. A little less.

[A]

Exactly. We'll look back on this and it'll be like, oh, I was so dumb when I was 60.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It's funny for the leaders listening now, CEOs, board members, pastors, church staff who hear their story in this story, and they're like, oh, maybe there's more work for me to do. What do you want to tell them?

[B]

That there's always more work to do. So don't go, like. Cause I. Hey, you and I both were like, I hope I never go through that again.

[A]

No, I know, I know. I'm not wishing it on anyone.

[B]

But that doesn't mean there's not more work to do. And so go, hey, instead of going, I wonder if there's more work to do to go. I wonder what the work is that I have to do. The other thing is know that. And this is so. I mean, God's will is always best. And even if it's like that, we have to go through that. He knows why. And sometimes just holding onto that, and maybe we won't have to go through anything too, too hard, but if we do, it's because he knows we need that, because he only gives us what's gonna bring him, us to Him. So don't be afraid of it and help. It's so great when you take that and you go, oh, I want to find other people who are going through this and help them. Wow. I mean, isn't that how God made us? Is when we're loving on other people, our pain, we can make it redemptive and helpful.

[A]

I look at that dark night of the soul. For me, it's definitely made me a better husband. It's made me, I think, a better dad and definitely a better boss.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

And, yeah, you as well.

[B]

What a grace.

[A]

I know. And so now you get to go through life and whether the results are the same or better, you know. And the other thing I think too is it happened to me when I was around 40, 41, and I didn't have this or I didn't have the audience we have now. You know, I had a church of 8 or 900 and that was enough, man. That was like, oh, it's going to kill me. And if you had shown me what I would be entrusted with in my 40s, 50s and beyond, it would have crushed me. I have no idea. I don't have enough hours in the day. And now, you know, it's one of the great joys. So I think it expanded my capacity and that would be my thought to leaders who are afraid of it is if God wants to do this and he wants to take you deep, it's because he wants to take you far.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. And you don't have to wait till you're 59.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Please take the 29 year old version of this. Yeah, it'll be fine.

[B]

And I have some friends that are going through difficult stuff right now. I'm like, oh, no, no. This is God giving you the opportunity to go through something hard right now. And I don't look back and go, oh, man, God, how come it took me so long to go through it? It's like, hey, 59. It could have been 79.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And maybe there'll be another one for you and me, but I will probably resist it and then embrace it.

[B]

And if you do, give me a call.

[A]

Well, there's a brotherhood, right? There's people who know, man, we went nowhere where we thought we would go, oh, my goodness conversation. But this has been so good for my soul.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

And thank you for being so honest. You know, it's the. We admire people's strengths, but we resonate with their weaknesses. And you know, in being so honest and so vulnerable, like two friends just talking today, you really, really help tens of thousands of leaders.

[B]

Wait, are you recording this?

[A]

Yeah. Trick, trick, trick, trick, trick.

[B]

No. Praise God for all of that. Thanks.

[A]

Hey, people who want to follow you these days, you're working on a new book.

[B]

Yeah, and a new project, but that's.

[A]

That'S, that's way down the road. Yeah, I will come back then.

[B]

Hopefully not.

[A]

Genius.

[B]

Working genius.

[A]

And you know, one of my favorite, another favorite book of yours that I would give a huge shout out to is the Motive. I saw it on your desk.

[B]

I love something that is the book that I wrote. Older, because I realized all this stuff works, but only if you have. If you're leading for the right reasons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it's. I would say that's the first book I'd give to a. A young leader and say, make sure you're clear on your motives first you read the Motive.

[A]

That was such a good book, Pat. Till next time. Thank you.

[B]

Thanks, Gary.

[A]

That was really emotional. I said to Pat after, are you sure you're okay letting this see daylight? And he is. I mean, I just appreciate really vulnerable leaders because you know what? I've been there, you've been there, we've all been there. And the ability to talk about it in public forums like this, I think just makes us all better. So if you're in a really tough season right now, I just want to encourage you to hang in there. Don't let this current chapter be your last chapter. As I always have said to myself and to a lot of other leaders, don't quit on a bad day. Don't quit in a bad season. If you can hang in there, just hang in there. We did cover a lot. If you want show notes, you know, move from the crowd to the core. We've got 20,000 leaders now inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You can join absolutely free. There is a paid tier where we have all kinds of amazing resources for you, but if you want to check it out, just go to theartofleadershipacademy.com or click the link. Wherever you are watching this episode, just scroll down and you'll find it there. We'd love to welcome you into a very safe, thriving community where, guess what? People actually support each other, where you don't have critics and trolls. You have people who are in it, who are, who get it, and who want to make you better as a leader. And that's the kind of community I love to host and would love to have you in there. Well, next episode, we've got Craig Groeschel and Dr. Wayne Chappell. So Craig, I know, is one of those leaders who needs no introduction. Founding pastor of Life church just celebrated 30 years. And Dr. Wayne Chappelle is actually a therapist and performance coach that Craig hired. He introduced Dr. Chappelle to me. He became Craig's therapist, my therapist. And we're going to talk about times. Like Craig said at one point recently, he thought ministry was going to kill him. And he reached out to Wayne Chappelle. They had a great conversation about it. And so if you want to have, if you're interested in listening to Craig Groeschel and I talked to our therapist. Don't miss the episode. It's coming up next if you subscribe or follow of course, wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. And the vast majority of people who access an episode haven't done that yet. Just do it. Just press the button, follow and you won't miss it. So also coming up, we've got Beth Moore, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate Tomlin, Jenny Allen and a whole lot more. Thank you so much for listening. If this conversation was helpful, share it with a friend, leave us a rating and review wherever you're watching or listening. Or better yet, drop us a [e-mail] once you become a member for free. And we'll have a great conversation about this and a whole lot more. We'll catch you next time. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and hopefully break a growth barrier that you're facing.