← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 788 | Are You Marketing Revival? The Problem with Mixed Motives and Social Media in Church Leaders
00:23:25
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Hi friends. David Kinnaman here. I'm taking over Carrie Studio just for a couple minutes before today's podcast to give you a quick glimpse into what we're seeing here at Varna. So thanks for joining the podcast and we'll get to the show in just a minute. We want to talk about what we're learning in the state of the church research. Actually, we'll be looking today at the state of today's church leaders, specifically pastors and their self reported vocational stability. Do they want to stay in the jobs that they're in? So for several years we've been tracking how many pastors have seriously considered quitting full time ministry. That question became especially urgent during the pandemic as the cumulative pressures of recent years had mounted. All the things that we endured as leaders, especially in 2020 and 2021. In fact, by 2022 we saw the highest levels that we had ever recorded. 42% of pastors in March of 2022 and 41% in September of 2022 said they had seriously considered leaving full time ministry. And so we've been seeing some really interesting trends related to that. That number has been declining. That is good news. It went to 33% in 2023 to 31% in 2024, and I'm very happy to report that it is down to 24% in December of 2024. So pastors are telling us that they're doing better now listen, that is still too high. A number one in every four pastors tell us that they are still considering leaving full time ministry. And this new data still could look at the positive here and say that this suggests that we're in a moment of opportunity where intentional support, healthy expectations and shared responsibility could help sustain pastors for the long haul. And again, a lot to celebrate. We're actually in the midst of a very spiritually open moment. So I think pastors are seeing some of the wind return to their sails. But this raises some really critical questions for us as leaders. So first of all, how are you? Where are you when it comes to this question about your sustainability, your endurance, your resilience for the long haul? Do you have a safe place, safe places to talk about how you're really doing and what is sustaining you in your ministry these days? These are questions that we should all be asking as leaders. So the team here at Barna and I, along with our friends at Carrie Newhoff's organization, we pray for you regularly, for your ministry resilience, for you to last the long haul. In what Christ is calling you to. So you've got this because we know Jesus sustains you, because we know Jesus is in this with us. So thanks so much for joining. We've got lots more data on pastors in our recently published journal, the relationships of today's pastors. You can learn more@barna.com or you can go to stateofthechurch.com Carrie and just a little personal note. My friendship with Carrie has been one of the things that has sustained me in ministry. I know so many of you enjoy listening along to Carrie and. And so, Kerry, we honor you, we thank you. We're grateful for you. Keep going. We are cheering you on and praying for you too, brother. Thank you so much. So with all that, we're on to today's episode of the Carrie Newhoff leadership podcast.
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Thanks so much for joining the art of leadership network. So this is how unexamined motives work. Unexamined motives don't announce themselves. They don't, you know, put up their hand and say, hey, guess what? We dropped a little bit of arsenic in the water. Okay, they're not doing that. They don't usually lead to outright lying or dishonesty. What they lead to mixed motives is exaggeration. They'll lead to blurred language. They'll turn hope into reality. Right. Kind of hoped this would happen, but now we're gonna pretend it did happen. Especially when there's pressure to keep a story alive. Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff leadership podcast. Hey, today we're going to go inside the soul of a leader to ask a question. All right? And this is like an example question, but it's what I'm going to focus on today. But this applies across the board. And the question is, are you selling church growth? There's something that happens inside the soul of a leader I want to take a look at. And if you've ever had mixed motives, well, that's what we're talking about today because I have 100%. I have. Hey, before we get started today, I want to give a shout out to Peter Carter, Sheila Shipper, and Judson Taylor, who've been watching and commenting on YouTube. My team and I love seeing your comments. Thank you so much for watching and subscribing. We so appreciate you. Hey, if you want show notes to this, you know, we spent a lot of time putting good show notes transcripts together, you can find them at carynwhoff.com shownotes or better yet, go to theartofleadershipacademy.com set up your free account and you will find them there, as well as some really meaningful discussion inside my Art of Leadership Academy. Did you know there are 17,000 leaders now inside the academy? We would love to welcome you as one of them. So today, as I said, I want to tell you about something I believe will take your leadership to the next level. Okay, we're going to talk about the heart. But if you really want to grow your skill set, this is going to change how you lead, how you think, how you connect, and also your heart. I am hosting the Art of Leadership Live this September 21st 23rd in Nashville, Tennessee and trust me, you don't want to miss this one. Okay, this isn't one of those sit in your seat conferences where you just sit in the back row and take notes and not pay attention, where you're listening for eight hours straight. No, this is highly interactive, deeply practical and intentionally designed to help you take real steps forward as a leader. So whether maybe you're looking for a fresh perspective for strategic clarity or your next big breakthrough, you're going to find it through world class teaching, meaningful connection with other leaders. We sit you around roundtables and margin to think, process, plan and actually build community. Last year, honestly, I was blown away. Not just by the speakers, but by the caliber of leaders in the room. The conversations, the insights, the energy was unlike anything I've ever been a part of. And this year in Nashville, you can expect the same. The conference is filling up very quickly, more quickly than in previous years. Early bird pricing is still available, but for a very limited time. So don't wait. Go to theartofleadershiplive.com to apply and secure your spot. Now that's theartofleadershiplive dot com One final note. If you are one of the many all access members of the Art of Leadership Academy, guess what? You can skip the application process. We know who you are. Register right now at an exclusive member rate. Just log into your account for all the details and your special registration link. So today I want to talk about motives to get into the deeper part of your heart and my heart. Because if we're not careful. Here's what I'm worried about. What drives you can ultimately destroy you. And I want to talk to you about it through the lens of church growth and in particular the season of revival that we're in, you know, in many cases right now. We've been talking about it for. It was three years ago that the Asbury, you know, awakening happened. So nothing in this episode is meant to dismiss or downplay genuine life change. I'm not skeptical of church growth. I want your church to grow. I am not cynical about reaching new people. I am not cynical about revival. Okay, so that's my disclaimer. I believe God moves. I believe he still surprises us. And I believe we're seeing real spiritual hunger satisfied in the season. And before I say anything further, let me just say the only reason I can talk about what we're going to talk about in this episode is that everything I'm describing lives in my heart, too. Okay? I've been in senior leadership for 30 years, and I've led a growing church for 20 of those years. And so what I'm sharing with you today is something I'm reflecting on, on my leadership. Every driven leader is going to struggle with this. And if you aren't driven, well, then maybe you don't understand. But the kind of leader I think who tunes into a podcast like this in all likelihood gets what I'm talking about. So seeing your church grow is amazing, and so many leaders are seeing it right now. But that growth can do something to your heart that isn't healthy. It's the right thing with the wrong motives. So what are we seeing right now in a lot of churches? Well, people are coming to faith. Baptisms are increasing. College campuses are seeing intense spiritual hunger. But the leadership question I don't think we're asking clearly enough is what happens to pastors when growth becomes public, platformed, or even performative? Or if I can put it more directly, are we telling a story about what God is doing, or are we marketing momentum? So marketed momentum isn't fake growth. Okay, it's real things. But they're real things described at their most impressive. And sometimes as a leader, you might find yourself rounding up. Right? I've done that in the past. It's like, eh, close enough. I'm really careful about my numbers now, but in the past, I might, like, you know, not exaggerate, but just like, let's round up to a slightly higher integer. Or maybe it's using hopeful language before it's fully accurate. You're describing something that doesn't totally exist. Or maybe it's the temptation to tell the story you want to be true before time has had a chance to test it. Or maybe, you know, it's pulling your phone out and getting the right shot, the right angle in the room that you're gonna post to TikTok or Instagram, so the room actually looks fuller than it is. Okay, I understand this because I wrestle with the same stuff. I wanna say this clearly. I am part of the problem, right? In seasons, I have told stories that emphasize the momentum and ignored the cracks. Not because I wanted to deceive anyone, but because marketed momentum makes you look good and, let's be honest, makes you feel good about yourself, doesn't it? At least for a short time, doesn't anymore. But that's not a good thing. And in a platform world, increasingly all of this just feels normal. It almost feels like permission to play. Well, of course, this is what you do. Of course you exaggerate it a little bit. So why is this so tempting for pastors? Well, over the last 20 plus years, as social media has saturated our culture, when growth happens, you don't just process it with friends. I mean, back in the day, you used to go for coffee, it's like, yeah, it was a really good Sunday. But now you and I feel an intense pressure to narrate it. So here's the tension. When momentum gets shared, it gets shaped. And when it gets shaped, it also gets optimized. And when it gets optimized, it often starts serving the story more than it starts serving the truth. That's what marketing does, right? And I'm not against marketing, all right, I'm not. But I believe good marketing can be great. But this is the stuff that gets into your soul. And that's why I want to talk about it now. Pastors, I think, are especially vulnerable to this. Not because our motives are bad, but because they're mixed. Right? And we're doing really important work. We want people to meet Jesus. We want lives to change. We want the church to grow. We want to encourage other leaders who are discouraged or tired. And those are good desires. But mixed motives are still motivating us. And if they go unexamined, they don't stay neutral. And that's something that I've seen all around me. The problem isn't mixed motives. The problem is unexamined motives. So that's why we're doing this, right? If you don't examine your motives, if you don't really get honest with yourself and with God, you can get in trouble fast. So this is how unexamined motives work. A few thoughts on that. Okay, so this is how unexamined motives work. Unexamined motives don't announce themselves. They don't put up their hand and say, hey, guess what? We dropped a little bit of arsenic in the water. Okay? They're not doing that. They don't usually lead to outright lying or dishonesty. What they lead to mixed motives is exaggeration. They'll lead to blurred language. They'll turn hope into reality. Right? Kind of hope this would happen, but now we're gonna pretend it did happen, especially when there's pressure to keep a story alive or you wanna be part of a bigger story that's being written elsewhere. And lately, when it comes to marketed momentum, this is where revival language can enter the conversation, right? You can say, look at what's happening at our church. We're at a room another night, or whatever you're sharing. So indeed, God might actually be moving. But revival language carries weight. And when momentum gets marketed, revival can become this powerful label, even if it's not 100% accurate. Revival is not a marketing term. It's not. And of course, what many revival experts say, and we did a whole series on this last year, is that we're not in revival yet, but I see it all over the Internet. We got revival, we got revival, right? People who study revival say the same thing over and over again. If and when revival happens, it's unmistakable. You don't have to convince people. You don't have to market people. You don't have to defend it. You don't have to keep explaining it. It's kind of like the second coming. You're like, is that the second coming? No, it's not. If it's the second coming, everybody's going to know, right? Same with revival. And in many cases, I think what we're actually seeing around us right now is momentum. Good momentum. God, momentum. Encouraging momentum. Momentum we should be grateful for, but momentum that hasn't yet earned the weight of the language that perhaps we're assigning to it. So if you struggle with this tension, what do you do about it? So I want to offer you a simple framework that's helped me examine myself. I'm not judging anybody else, but this is something I am actively struggling with in my own life. And so I found this helpful. So ask yourself, start this way. Ask yourself this question. Why do I need to tell this story in the way I'm telling it? Why do I need to tell this story in the way I'm telling it? This is a really interesting question. Before you post, right before you write that email, before you post it, to YouTube or TikTok or Instagram. And often you'll discover four motives underneath. And these unexamined motives are the things that drive you. And when they drive you, these are the ones that could destroy you. So why am I telling this story in the Way I am telling it, sometimes the driver is pride, right? You're like, hey, look at me. I'm doing awesome, right? Growth becomes proof of God's faithfulness. Like you need some kind of validation. And that leads us to number two, right? Sometimes the driver is insecurity. It's insecurity. Pride and insecurity are pretty linked. But maybe you feel behind or you fear becoming irrelevant, or you exaggerate momentum just enough to stay in the conversation with your friends, right? Insecurity doesn't lie outright. It just rounds up. The question here is whether you're sharing out a gratitude or anxiety, whether a slowdown would make you feel exposed, like, oh, no, I don't have what it takes, right? So sometimes it's pride, sometimes it's insecurity. Sometimes the driver's aspirational pressure. You just want more than you are. You want to be more than you are. You want your church to be more than it is. So hope gets reported as reality. A good season becomes a movement, or momentum becomes revival. And it's not malicious. But overstatement soon becomes normal in this framework, right? Everything is aspirational. So a helpful question is whether people actually in your church would recognize your church the way you're describing it publicly. Does what you're saying publicly align with what's happening privately? So the final driver, and this one rarely happens by itself, but once in a while, hey, your motives are pretty good. How do you know you have good motives? Well, here's a good motive check. Ask yourself, would I still share this if no other pastor saw this? What if it got zero exposure if the algorithm just killed it, would you still post it? Are you pointing to what God is doing or are you pointing to yourself? Morgan Housel and Rachel Cruz ask a great question about money, which is, let's say you're going to buy a new car, okay? Or a watch or a house or whatever. Or the workout outfit, the gear you just bought, if nobody else saw it, would you still buy it? It's a great question. I mean, there are things that I bought that I'm like, I'm just really happy I bought it. But sometimes we buy things because we want to impress other people. So if you're trying to impress other people, maybe hold off a little bit. Okay, So I want to suggest that there are four questions before you post. So before I post anything now, and I'm posting a little bit less than I used to because I keep applying this motive check to myself, right? I try to slow myself down with a Few filters. So filter number one, question one, Am I being accurate or am I overstating what's happening? Like, would this actually hold up under honest scrutiny? If you came into the room, would you go, yeah, that's exactly what I saw online, or it's even better than what I saw online. So are you being accurate? Am I being accurate? Second, am I looking at a moment or am I looking at sustained movement? Right? Because if it's happening again and again and again and again, okay, that's a little bit different than if you just had one really good Sunday or one really good service or one really good moment, and you posted that and said, this is who we are. Right? So is it part of something sustained? Right. And then ask yourself again, who gets the credit here? God, the people, the leaders? Or am I getting all the credit because of my posting? And then finally, I would ask this question, if I couldn't share this publicly, would I still celebrate it privately? It's a great question. And more and more, I have moments I don't share publicly. Dinners with close friends, family moments. Not because they're inappropriate, but because I want to keep those things special. And I think sometimes we lose something when we share every intimate detail of our lives and every intimate detail of our leadership with everybody. This episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're leading a church and you know there's more in you, I believe there's more in you and more ahead for your team. I want to personally invite you to something special. Special. September 21st, 23rd, 2026. I'm hosting the Art of Leadership Live this year. It's in Nashville, Tennessee. This isn't a conference where you just sit in a chair for eight hours, listen to talking heads, take notes, and hope something sticks. This is highly interactive. It's practical. It's intentionally designed to help you make real progress on the leadership challenges you're facing right now. So what do we do? Well, we combine focused teaching, meaningful conversations with other leaders, and built in space to think, process, and actually apply what you're learning. So you don't just leave inspired. You leave with clarity and next steps, and you do it in community. So I'll tell you this, the leaders who gathered last year absolutely blew me away. The depth of the conversations, we have a lot of conversations. The honesty in the room, the momentum people left with, that's what makes this event so special. So I can't wait to do it again. This time, we're in Nashville. One important note, super early Bird pricing is almost gone, so if you've been thinking about applying, you have to apply to get in. Now's the time. Once it expires, rates go up for Good. So visit theartofleadershiplive.com to secure the very best pricing. Again, that's theartofleadershiplive dot com I would love to see you in Nashville this September. So back to why we post and our motives. Instead of posting everything, maybe rounding up, slightly exaggerating, or being too optimistic, I'm learning to ask a better question. What is the most honest language for what God is doing right now? And I know that language sounds pretty unimpressive, but honest language builds trust, right? If you're marketing everything, if you're marketing your momentum and maybe exaggerating a bit, guess what you're doing? You're eroding trust. Even if good things are happening, if you're exaggerating, you're eroding trust. Trust with your people, trust with others. Trust even in your relationship with God. It matters more than we think because our language shapes expectations. Expectations shape behavior, and behavior shapes your integrity. Right? You are what you repeatedly do. So calling momentum revival doesn't create revival, but what it can do is create pressure to perform distortion, and eventually could even lead to cynicism. So, yeah, you don't want to grieve the Holy Spirit when you claim credit for something that hasn't fully happened yet or attribute to God something that really God isn't doing. All right, so where does this leave you and me? Well, growth is a gift. I'm all for it. I want to see it. I want to see it in your churches. I want to see it in our lives. Momentum is a gift. Seasons, like we're in right now in the church is a gift. And I am all about growing. Churches change lives and seeing God move powerfully. But when momentum starts shaping your identity, it can start reshaping your integrity. I talked with John Crist on this podcast. It's episode 604. And he talked about people laughing at his jokes becoming like injecting a drug into his veins. He actually used this body language. And I think leaders get that, right. The applause, the likes, the accolades. What do they like? They're kind of like, right. Right into your veins. Now, John was canceled. He went into some deep rehab. I've tracked with him for a few years now. I'm really impressed at the transformation he's gone through. But when you sit down with a guy like John, you know what? After he's done the hard work. He's gone through rehab. You know what you realize he appreciates the laughter, but he doesn't need it. Doesn't need it anymore. He loves it. It's funny when a joke lands, but he doesn't. And I think when you get to the bottom of your motives and discover what really drives you, you can avoid destroying yourself or other people or your church, and you can stop selling and start telling. But it's deep work. As Tim Keller often said, momentum can become idolatry, right? Anything can become idolatry. And when it becomes idolatry, guess what? Success goes to your head. Failure goes to your heart. And if you're manufacturing or selling momentum, that's probably what's going to happen. So, bottom line, God isn't impressed by how well we narrate what he's doing. He's far more concerned with who we're becoming while he's doing his work. And maybe the win for listening to this podcast is to look deep inside as we navigate seasons of ministry, especially seasons of success. You know, there's a famous quote that says, anybody can handle failure. It's really success. That's a test of your character. So let our talk be accurate. Humble and courageous at times, but have the courage to tell the truth, even when the truth feels less impressive than the headline. Revival doesn't need hype. Faithfulness doesn't need branding. And ask yourself, am I being accurate or am I overstating what's happening? Would this hold up under honest scrutiny? Am I looking at a moment or a sustained movement? Because revival doesn't need constant defending. Who gets the credit here? You know, God, the people, leaders? Or is it all pointing to me? And then finally ask yourself one more time, if I couldn't share this publicly, would I still be celebrating it privately? So at the end of the day, I don't want to be known as a leader who sold momentum. I want to be known as somebody who stewarded it. I want to be a leader who kept my heart intact in seasons that go up and seasons that go down. Momentum doesn't need marketing. Don't sell it. Steward it. Okay. I hope that was helpful. I'm preaching to myself. It was helpful to you. I'd love to hear from you in the comments. Next episode. We kind of have a case study in what happens when you get huge momentum and it all falls apart. And my guest is Carl Lentz. We spent a morning together, and my goodness, he talks about preaching while you're having sex outside of marriage, how the pressure of church growth got to him and warning signs for other leaders. Also coming up on the podcast, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate Tomlin, Chelsea Smith, Jenny Allen, Arthur Brooks, Near Al, and a whole lot more. Man, we have a amazing guest lineup in 2026 for you. Thank you so much for listening. If this conversation was helpful, leave a review or comment or wherever you're listening, don't forget to share it with a friend. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.