CNLP 791 | Why Church Dating Advice No Longer Works: JJ and Kait Tomlin on the Realities Single Christians Face

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast

Episode CNLP 791 | Why Church Dating Advice No Longer Works: JJ and Kait Tomlin on the Realities Single Christians Face
Date: March 12, 2026
Host: Carey Nieuwhof
Guests: JJ and Kait Tomlin (Heart of Dating)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores why traditional "church dating advice" no longer resonates with modern Christian singles. Carey Nieuwhof interviews Kait and JJ Tomlin, founders of Heart of Dating, to discuss the gap between church teachings on relationships and the lived experiences of singles today. They unpack cultural and technological shifts, share personal stories, address widespread confusion and pressures in today's dating landscape, and offer a fresh, practical framework for leaders, pastors, and singles alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dating and Relationships in the Modern Digital Age

• Church’s Outdated Advice:
  Carey humorously confesses he hasn't dated since "before you were born" and acknowledges the generational divide and rapid change in dating norms.

  • "I've taught dating and relationship series, and literally, I haven't dated since before you guys were born." (00:20, Carey)

• The Rise of Digital Dating:
  Kait and JJ met on a Zoom call during COVID, highlighting how tech has shifted the way singles connect.

  • Kait: "We met on a zoom call in the middle of COVID… at a Galentine’s virtual conference." (05:27)
  • Growing prevalence of FaceTime dates and remote connections due to online dating and remote work. Fifty percent or more Christians now meet online.

2. Lack of Resources and Outdated Teaching

• Gap in Content:
  Kait started Heart of Dating after finding "for every 350 books on marriage, there’s one for dating" (07:17).
  • "There's a lot of marriage content out there... not enough books, podcasts, content for dating as a Christian." (05:52, Kait)
• Effect of Purity Culture:
  Kait reflects on growing up with "purity ring in middle school," recounting the damaging shame and pressure from I Kissed Dating Goodbye-era rules.
  • “It had good intentions, but it had a horrible effect... if you sit next to each other on a couch, there has to be two pillows between you…” (30:34, Kait)

3. Depressurizing Dating for Christians

• Overcommitment and "The List":
  Discuss the problem of hyper-intentionality (e.g., “I’ve had coffee with him—this is the one!”).
  • “I had previously been the girl that hyper committed really fast... These are words we use in the Christian world that secular people have no idea about—‘pursue,’ ‘intentional,’ ‘guard her heart.’” (12:15, Kait)
• Practical Framework—Five Stages of Dating:
  JJ and Kait urge leaders to teach a modern, less-pressurized framework:
  1. Single
  2. Dating (non-exclusive, "data gathering", friendship-building, no physical contact)
  3. Relationship/Defining the Relationship (exclusive, romantic, hand-holding, possibly kissing)
  4. Engagement ("pre-engagement counseling" highly recommended)
  5. Marriage
  • “Date for 90 days, non-exclusively. At the end of 90 days, see if you want to be in a relationship…” (51:53, JJ)
  • “Engagement shouldn’t be more than two years. One year is minimum.” (58:11, Kait)

4. The Impact of Modern Technology and Culture

• Dating Apps and Online Connection:
  Variety of apps discussed (Hinge, Bumble, Christian Mingle, eHarmony, newer apps like Arc).
  • "Hinge is probably the coolest and most acceptable app for secular and Christian." (17:30, Kait)
  • Stigma in Christian circles about dating apps is unwarranted; intention matters more than medium.
• "Sliding into DMs" is common and accepted—even for church leaders.

5. Psychological and Gender Dynamics

• Effects of Porn and Social Media:
  The hosts discuss how digital pornography and Instagram have warped men’s standards of beauty and attraction, making moderate, realistic attraction seem insufficient, especially for men raised online.
  • “For men, because of porn in the digital age, our compass and our objective scale of beauty is so jacked up...” (24:05, JJ)
• Women’s Expectations:
  Women often have an "up-and-to-the-right" approach, looking for men who match or exceed them in all areas (income, education, emotional intelligence).
  • "If I’ve spent 10 years in therapy, he needs to have spent 10 years in therapy..." (68:54, Kait)

6. Dynamics within Church Culture

• Lack of Single-Friendly Spaces:
  Pastors and leaders are encouraged to recognize that half (or more) of their congregations are now single (“51% of the U.S. adult population is not married,” 75:16, JJ), but church ministries are often married/family-focused.
• Avoiding Stigmatizing Language:
  Be careful with terms like “gift of singleness” or “just be content” as they can come across as dismissive or insensitive.

7. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Soft/Hard Launches in Dating:
  • Kait: "Soft launch—just a photo on Instagram of our hands. Hard launch—you’re tagged as a couple." (38:14)
• On the Pressure of Christian Dating:
  • JJ: "Don't date for marriage... We have put so much pressure on dating that going on a date means something way more than it should." (36:47)
• On Young Adults Ministry:
  • "Don’t call it just young adults—because it excludes everyone after 27... Just say it’s all ages." (82:18, JJ)
• On Relationship Stages:
  • JJ: “First six months—could I marry this person? Second six months—should I?” (56:10)
• On Attractiveness and Character:
  • “If you can’t tell me one single flaw they have, you’re not ready to marry this person.” (61:17, Kait)

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Notable Timestamps

• 05:27 Kait and JJ describe meeting on Zoom and the reality of digital age dating.
• 07:17 Statistical gap in Christian dating content.
• 12:15 Defining “intentionality” and "the list" in Christian dating culture.
• 30:34 Purity culture's damaging rules from a firsthand perspective.
• 51:14 Break-down of the five-stage dating framework.
• 54:09 What to look for: compatibility, character, capability.
• 61:44 Fear of commitment ("fobo"—fear of better options).
• 65:12 Dating app statistics—swipe rates and the "paradox of choice."
• 75:16 JJ on “majority of America is not married.”
• 84:13 Why singles events can be intimidating, especially for men.
• 87:05 Words and phrases to avoid: “Gift of singleness,” “Contentment.”
• 90:05 Carey suggests platforms and panels to share real single stories.

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Do’s and Don’ts for Leaders Speaking to Singles (88:40+)

Do’s

• Do create specific ministries or spaces for singles of all ages—not just “young adults.”
• Do invite single leaders and stories onto panels, sermons, and into leadership.
• Do update your teaching and frameworks to reflect reality, not nostalgia.
• Do acknowledge the pain and complexity in dating—lead with empathy.
• Do encourage a culture where dates aren’t equated with engagement and can end without shame.
• Do check your language—use analogies and stories that fit all kinds of households.

Don’ts

• Don’t call it only “Young Adults” or host “Singles Mixers” with heavy dating pressure.
• Don’t use phrases like “gift of singleness” or “just be content.”
• Don’t pressure for fast engagement or diminish the challenge of being single.
• Don’t assume your teaching experience from decades ago is transferable without updates.
• Don’t stigmatize online dating.

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Advice and Encouragement for Single Christians

• Date the unexpected: Be open to men or women outside your usual "type."
• Don’t over-spiritualize or over-pressure first dates—a date is just a date.
• Pray for, encourage, and affirm men and women who are trying to grow and be open, not only the “ideal” candidate.
• Don’t idolize marriage; pursue growth and rich community in whatever stage you’re in.
• Leaders: Regularly, not just seasonally, spotlight and affirm singles in your sermons, stories, and leadership.

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Closing Resources

• Heart of Dating: heartofdating.com
  • Mentorship program: School of Dating
  • Podcast on all major platforms
  • Free resources and a comprehensive dating personality quiz

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Final Thought

JJ: "When you were 23, 24… probably the number one thing fighting for your attention to focus on Christ and worship is: who is the other attractive single person here that I could talk to?... This is the number one thing in a single person's brain." (92:19)

For more on this episode and related resources, visit careynieuwhof.com

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Transcript

[A]

The Art of Leadership Network. I just said, why not go on a FaceTime date? I could hear Dr. Cloud in my head be like, it's just a FaceTime cake.

[B]

What is a FaceTime date?

[A]

Just a date, you know?

[C]

Like, what is a FaceTime date? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is that again? This is like, I know. Educated. Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. So glad you have tuned in. Where you're watching, where you're listening today. Hey, today we're gonna talk about something that I know nothing about, which is dating. I have not dated. Well, you'll find out for a long, long time. And I'm like, you know what? You know what we do, leaders. We talk about it all the time, right? It's like, I got a series on relationships coming up. We're gonna talk about the gift of singleness. We'll find out why that's not a good idea. And I've got two people, I thought, who could speak into this. Kate and J.J. tomlin are here. They have been through a long history of dating themselves. They lead a powerful ministry called the Heart of Dating, have a top rated podcast, bestselling author, all of that, and my goodness, do we go deep. So get out your notebook. Enjoy it. Here's my conversation with JJ And Kate Tomlin. Jj, Kate, it's so good to have you here. Welcome.

[A]

Thanks for having us, Carrie.

[C]

We're so honored, man.

[B]

Oh, well, listen, I mean, we've been hanging out, and I'm like, I gotta have him on the podcast. It's one of those things.

[A]

Cause.

[B]

And here. And you guys know this, but, like, my thing is, you know, I've taught dating and relationship series, and literally, I haven't dated since before. I'm gonna say before you guys were born.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

All right. I'm not gonna date you or make you say this, but, like, I dated in last time. And you know, Tony, we just. We had coffee this morning, right? The four of us. 1988 was the last time I went on.

[A]

I was born in 89, so.89 before

[C]

you were born in 95.

[B]

90. You guys aren't kids. You're adults. And so then a guy my age or even 40, who's been married for 15 years comes out, and he's like, all right, we're doing our relationship series. I just have no idea. And so I thought, I'm going to sit down with JJ and Kate, and you can educate all of us on what we don't understand.

[C]

Well, it doesn't have to be in February, and it doesn't have to be summer 11. So we can just go ahead and help them out off the get go.

[A]

Yeah. The one series a year.

[B]

You're calling us out on the one series a year that's in February or summer lovin.

[A]

It's summer lovin or February always. It's just. It's just ask. Every pastor is laughing right now because they know, like, yep.

[B]

That is when we do our February better series. Better on her mom. On Mother's Day.

[C]

That's so funny.

[B]

Father's. It's like, grab a burger, whatever.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So no, this is interesting. So you guys have been married three years, is that right?

[A]

Yeah, we're still newlyweds really. But it means I was single a lot longer than I've been married. So I still understand that world maybe even better.

[B]

And you started a big ministry for people who are dating. So give us a little bit of your backstory and then we really want to get into. What is it like? Like, you know, I'm pretender. Pre Gosh. E. Harmony. That came after my time. Like it's crazy.

[A]

Like a dinosaur.

[B]

We were dating in the. In the. The. What would they call it? The prehistoric era. Um, we didn't even have email.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

No AOL yet. That's right.

[B]

No aol.

[C]

Writing letters and phone calls.

[B]

Yes. We would get our quill pens and

[C]

write in letters and put.

[A]

It was your painting typewriter.

[B]

Pony Express would come by.

[C]

So funny.

[B]

No, I was doing. I did. I used a computer. We met at law school. Tony and I met at law school. And that was the first degree where I'm like, I'm going to ditch my typewriter and use a computer. But. And we had a computer. We got married in the middle of law school. But like there was no Internet. It wasn't hooked up to anything. And then you had a computer lab that you could go to the law school.

[C]

You had a computer without Internet. Yeah.

[B]

How does. What. What even is that?

[C]

Right?

[A]

What do you use that for? Taking notes? Is it. I don't like, is it like a virtual. I don't even understand.

[B]

I don't even understand.

[A]

Like, that doesn't even compute for me.

[B]

No, I mean, you would just write like it was dos, it was before Windows. And you would just write documents like papers and then print them out on dot matrix papers. I feel like I'm your grandfather now, or great grandfather saying, you know, and then we got the horse out of the barn, but it wasn't that far from getting the horse out of the barn, you know?

[A]

I'm not obviously your age. However, I do find it funny because in the 90s, you know, we. I grew up mainly in the 90s and the floppy disk and all of that. And you show that to a Gen Zer now and they're like, what is. What even is that?

[C]

What is that?

[A]

What is that?

[B]

But when it went from the big floppy to the small floppy. Yes, that was a big.

[C]

Or have you seen them trying to make Gen Z kids dial on like the. The roller telephone? They can't figure it out.

[B]

You don't remember rotary phones? It was always fun when your friends had lower digit phone numbers because it was like 979-0986. Took forever to call them.

[A]

I do remember.

[B]

Yeah, it's like 323-1129. That was fine. But yeah, anyway, stuff. I've just dated myself. But tell us enough about me and my prehistoricness. What about you? Tell me about you guys. You dated for a long time. You've been married three years.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You have a beautiful daughter.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Who we shared some time with and I shared a croissant with this morning.

[C]

She was like so cute.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, I mean, speaking of like the digital age in computers, we met on a zoom call in the middle of COVID Oh, wow. That's how we met. It was a Galentine's virtual conference Valentine's with 5.

[A]

Why was JJ at a Galentine's event?

[B]

This is interesting.

[C]

Yeah, that's a good question.

[B]

Tell us more.

[C]

But Kate had already been running hard at dating, which I'll let you start with. Yeah, you're running hard of dating for how long now and why?

[A]

Yeah, at that point it was probably at least four years. It's been around eight years now. So I started single and I started it very interesting to be a single person running a dating industry, becoming a dating coach and then trying to date, you know. But I started heart of dating really from a prompting from the Lord because I felt him leading me to it. I didn't want to be this singer single girl talking about dating. But to our point of the, you know, one series, a year relationship series, I was in a season of my life of dating all the wrong ways and wanting to date the right way. And I just couldn't find that many good resources for Christian dating. I was like, I'm a single. I've done this the wrong way. I want to do this right. I want to actually enjoy it and not put so much pressure on it. And I just couldn't. You know, I listened to all those Sermons, speaking of the relationship. But I did not find enough. Not enough books, not enough podcasts, not enough content for dating as a Christian. And so the Lord led me to start this podcast. Didn't really think anything of it. Ended up being so passionate about it. Becoming a dating coach myself and releasing a book and all of that. And I just. It's such a joy. We love getting to serve singles. But as I was doing that is when I met jj, who, you know, always had a dream of dating a dating coach.

[B]

Obviously, you showed up in your camo hat.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It's like, all right, how did you end up on Galentine's?

[C]

Well, well. And fun fact, since, like, you have a lot of leaders here. Kate ran an independent study about Christian dating books and Christian books on marriage. And for every 350 books on marriage, there's one for dating.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

350 to 1.

[A]

Yeah, it's either 300 or 350, but it's like. Yeah, there's not a lot. There's a lot of marriage content out there.

[C]

Granted, like, we don't want to make dating this longer than it ever should be, but we want to be as helpful as possible, especially now with the church and the demographics, which we'll talk about. What? I mean, we're more single now than ever before as a country and the church, like, they followed each other in the same trend. But so I was on the. The Galentine's call in the middle. Zoom.

[B]

How do you gotta.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

How did you end up on that call?

[C]

So it's a friend. They are running their ministry, amazing ministry called Delight. And I was actually doing a blind date as an icebreaker.

[A]

These girls, 500 girls could apply to go on a date with him.

[C]

Yeah. And not all five girls go on

[A]

a live date in front of 500 girls.

[C]

I think maybe. I think maybe two did a Zoom date. A zoom date? Yeah. So I met Kate on the pre call, like, organizers and everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I was immediately, like, blown away. I'm like, this is the most beautiful 4 by 6 pixel woman I've ever seen.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So when I saw Kay, you were

[C]

like, who is like a zoom call with like six random people? And I'm like, who's this? But then, you know, I was at a place in my dating life where I was not asking out women just based off how hot they were. Long story short, I want to know their character and their faith before I would go out on a date with them just because I didn't really have the character to Go out with a woman who was beautiful but didn't love God. And I just wasn't responsible enough in those situations. So I see Kate, I'm like, okay, great. She's just a beautiful girl, but that's all I know about her. I go on my date and she was like a great sister in Christ, but I was a little distracted, like,

[B]

hey, hey, hey, who's that in, you know.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Square number four.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And thinking that she's watching me, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[A]

I wasn't watching at all.

[C]

She wasn't watching at all. She completely forgot about me.

[A]

Camera off. I don't even remember meeting him. I'm just preparing for my talk behind the scenes, waiting for you to call me.

[C]

I finished my day. They invite us to stay on the call. I'm like, why would I do that? And then I changed my name to, like, Emily and turn off my camera so I can actually listen to Kate because I'm just interested. And so I hang around and I listen and I. I just loved what she talked about. She talked about self hatred, her story of abuse, and just basically who she had become in Christ. So just character, character, character. And that's what I really fell in love with. Asked the organizers to set me up and they basically. I know it's hard to believe by looking at me. They had to convince Kate to say yes.

[A]

Because you gotta understand, Carrie, you know, this version of JJ back then, he had blue hair and weird style, and his Instagram was like a different hairstyle every photo. And, you know, and he was younger than me, so I was like, I don't know. There's not a lot going for him, you know.

[B]

Six years between you guys?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Pretty big.

[B]

So that's interesting. You know, that's one thing we have in common. I was at law school. Tony was at law school. You don't know anybody at law School. It's 900 students at our particular school in Toronto. And I was lining up. That's all you do in the first week of law school is line up for class, line up for books, line up for this, line up for that. And she walked into the quad. It was like a shaft of light came from heaven. I saw her and it was like. I'm like, who is this? The most beautiful woman I've ever laid eyes on in my life. And then it was like pursuit. That was it. So. Yeah, but that's funny, you had to.

[C]

About the same for Tony, though.

[B]

No, she totally did not know who I was. She did not have a Reciprocal experience of me. I was one of. It was 50. 50. I was one of 450 guys. She didn't even care. I used to stare at her in class. And finally, one of her early friends in law school who was sitting beside her is like, that boy keeps staring at you. I think he likes you. It's like, you know, you can probably get arrested for that.

[C]

Yeah, probably.

[B]

But I was just staring at her a lot. And then I got to know her and all that.

[C]

So you have to do it on a zoom call because then they can't tell. Exactly. That's the secret.

[B]

You don't know what's where you're at.

[C]

You can just gawk and stare. Yeah, exactly. So we. Kate barely says yes. Cause she's doing the Dr. Cloud dating challenge.

[B]

Oh. Which is what? Henry was just here.

[A]

Yeah. So we. And we saw him earlier today. So his book changed my life. How to get a date worth keeping. It's very old book, but it's still impacting people. So for me, the dating challenge and how I applied his dating challenge was, hey, go out non exclusively with people. Just go on dates. Don't make it a big pressure.

[B]

So it's not like, hey, I found you. You're it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And that was good for me because I had previously been the girl that hyper committed really fast. And you know, in the church lingo, that's called intentional. Right, right.

[B]

I'm courting.

[C]

Not courting, exactly.

[A]

I'm being super intentional. I'm pursuing them. Right. These are all words we use in the Christian world that secular people have no idea. Pursue, intentional. They're like, what? Like, guard her heart. None of that makes sense to somebody who's not Christian. But for me, it got me in a lot of bad places because I would hyper commit to the wrong person.

[B]

So you've spent three hours with this person. It's like, this is the one.

[C]

This is it.

[A]

And now I'm a hopeless romantic. I'm infatuated. I want them to like me. I'm gonna perform to get them to like me. All these things. And so met Dr. Cloud. He was like, you need to do my dating challenge. I started it. He actually set me up with a different guy. And I went out with that guy. A few other guys. So by the time JJ came on the scene, I was talking to three guys and just going on dates casually. They all were aware of it and nothing was serious. So I wasn't really looking to. This sounds horrible. Add another guy to my roster. Okay. I was just like, I'm good. My book's coming out. A lot is going on. Three guys. This is great.

[B]

And what year is this? This is roughly 2021. Oh, beginning. Oh, this is like recent history.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. And so when JJ came on this, I was like, I don't know. I'm already kind of talking to these guys. I'm busy. Younger guy, blue hair. So it was just a lot of like, I'm not sure. And I just said, why not go on a FaceTime date? I could hear Dr. Cloud in my head be like, it's just a FaceTime cake.

[B]

What is a FaceTime date?

[A]

A date, you know, like 15 minutes. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

What is that again? This is like.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Please educate me.

[C]

It's helpful. I mean, long distance dating is more popular now than ever before. And it's just as like, hey, we met. You live in Canada, I'm in Tennessee. But you're awesome and you have great recommendations. Why should that stop us from getting to know each other? So Tomorrow, how does 7:00pm I'll Uber eats you some dinner and we just FaceTime.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, cool. So the old telephone convo.

[C]

Yeah, you know that.

[B]

So FaceTime. FaceTime date. So you went on a FaceTime date. And was that because you were in different cities?

[A]

Yeah, we lived different places.

[C]

Seattle.

[B]

You were in Seattle.

[A]

Okay, you were in Seattle, California.

[B]

California. If you were both in California, would you have gone on a date date or would you. Okay, okay. So, yeah, this time is more just long distance.

[D]

Exactly.

[A]

It's just for long distance.

[C]

And you're not gonna fly to another city?

[B]

No, not on a first date, exactly. But yeah. Okay, I get it. I get it. But I really am like, I'm as dumb as no. When it comes to dating.

[C]

No, it's great.

[B]

I have. I. So I'm gonna ask all kinds of.

[C]

And this is more popular now. I mean, like, people are more open to dating with remote work. That really changed a lot of it.

[B]

100%. Yeah.

[C]

One or both people now can get up any second because you can work

[A]

somewhere else for a week and it's fine. You're so so. And also just, you know, for all the leaders, pastors listening, you know, online dating is huge. 50% or more of people are still meeting online, including Christians. And so with online dating comes more long distance because. Yeah, if you extend your radius, then you're open.

[B]

Only in my post, only in my zip code.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So what are. What are the app for online dating? I mean, I've heard of like, what there's Tinder, there's Hinge.

[A]

The Hinge is like Hinge is a popular non Christian one that I would say has a good motto. Outside Tinder, not recommended Hinge. Their motto is that dating app meant to be deleted. So they want people to get into relationships.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah, every app kind of has relationship

[C]

driven, especially secular app has kind of like an unspoken what you're coming here for.

[B]

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[A]

I would say Hinge is probably the coolest and most acceptable apps for secular and Christian.

[B]

Christian.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Tinder. No Christian should be on Tinder. That is a random hookup. It really does meet the standard of what it's known for. There's Bumble, which the girl reaches out first on Bumble. That's the way that goes. That's okay. Then there's Christian specific apps and there's apps for people in different decades. Right. So we have people that we've coached that are older, they might be getting on eHarmony or match.com or Christian Cafe.

[C]

They use their laptop.

[B]

They use their laptop.

[A]

They're not on their phone.

[B]

Not on their phone.

[A]

But that, that demographic, we wouldn't recommend those.

[C]

E. Harmony still around 20s and 30s, still going strong.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

Christian mingle. Still going strong.

[B]

Christian mingle. That's a thing. I thought that was like a comedian's thing.

[C]

No, that's real.

[B]

That's a real thing.

[C]

It's real and works. Yeah.

[A]

We don't love Christian mingle. We are. We like some of the newer Christian dating apps. Arc is one.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like Noah's Ark.

[C]

Find your pair.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

I know.

[A]

It's true. It's. Yes, I know.

[C]

That's great. Yeah, I know. There's one called Holy. I mean, it's pretty on the nose.

[B]

Well, there you go.

[C]

I'm sure some people download it as like a prayer app and then let's.

[B]

All of a sudden you're divorced.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There's another one upward.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That's owned by a secular company. So that's also, you know, by Matt.

[B]

So there's lots of dating apps.

[A]

Lots of dating apps.

[B]

And does anybody just like not use a dating app or everyone's on a date?

[A]

No, there are people because of the Christian culture stigma. And even I would say some of the pastoral stuff is like, they're like, there's a big stigma that dating apps are bad. And that's just for hookup culture. And I disagree with that. I think it's all about your intention. And of course you're going to find frogs. Of course you're going to find, you know, 8 out of 10 people you meet on a dating app. Nothing's gonna happen. It's not gonna be quality. And you just have to know that going into it. Because if you are thinking every person I meet on this app is gonna be awesome, then you're gonna have a horrible experience.

[C]

But I would say about half of your Christian singles in your congregation are probably on a dating app.

[B]

That's true. Even, you know, when I was a lead pastor, which is now over a decade ago, most of the people that were connecting were connecting online with whatever apps were around back then. Social media, now media. Yeah. Sliding into the DMs.

[C]

Yeah, that's very popular. Super. I would say that's probably the most popular right now for a lot of Christians. Super acceptable. I mean, you can be a Christian leader, like a junior pastor or young adults pastor, single. And, you know, there's like a worship leader who's really attractive at the church down the street. And you can slide into her DMs. You know, that's a. That's very common. Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Okay. So whole new world. Technology's really changed things. I'm wondering if we can go back a little bit. Let's pick up your story again. 2021, you're doing a FaceTime date. That's how we got here. Yes, doing a FaceTime date. So LA Seattle, pick it up from there. What happened with you guys?

[A]

So at first, I wasn't that interested in jj. I think a big part of our story, a big thing I would encourage leaders to encourage their singles, is to date the unexpected. And for me.

[B]

Because he didn't meet your list.

[A]

Because he didn't meet my. He wasn't my type. But type is usually driven off of pathology. It's usually also driven by looks. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. If you think about it, when someone says, no, they're not my type, it's usually because of how they look and not because of what they do. Their character, their love for the Lord. Nothing like that. And so he was not somebody I would normally go for. Okay. The age, the hair style, like, all that. And in fact, when he came to visit one month after us doing long distance, which is what we recommend, one month in, he was great. But I was very much in my head, hung up on, like, the way his style was.

[B]

So you liked him?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But you didn't like his type?

[A]

Yeah, the Gen Z ers would say I had the ick. Okay. That is,

[B]

I've heard it.

[A]

So maybe I'm even sounding outdated is

[B]

that makes me so grateful I'm not dating right now. Just keep going.

[A]

Yeah, I know. So. But, you know, I'm so grateful for people in my life because while I was a dating coach and taught people about this stuff, I still needed those voices in my life to be like, hey, that stuff stupid. Like, who cares if he has blue hair? Like, his color of his hair will change, his style might change. And what's his character? What's his heart like? Does he love the Lord?

[C]

And most importantly, girls say, you can fix that.

[A]

These things don't matter.

[B]

I noticed it appears to be a very natural brown right now.

[C]

Yeah, I know Kate, she got her hands in there.

[A]

He did have a mullet a year ago.

[B]

He had a mullet.

[A]

Yeah, About a year ago, he started growing it. And so every day. That's a funny story about that. Leaving. Anyway, so for me, I really was not sure. And at first I had to kind of challenge myself every day to Be like, hey, it's just one more date. It's just one more date. If you know enough information to see them one more time, keep going out with them.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, this is more about character. Now, if I found him, quote, ugly, okay, I'm not going out with him.

[B]

Right. If you're kind of really repulsed. Is that a word? Is that a word?

[A]

Really repulsed? Like.

[B]

And I'll be honest with you, like, her physical beauty was the first thing that attracted me to Tony. I had no idea whether she was a decent human being or not, and I couldn't. And I've thought about that. You know, it's like, I think there, for me, anyway, there has to be a certain level of attractiveness, because you're gonna go through, like. And attractiveness is subjective, Right? There is. You know, I find her very attractive. I think, objectively, she's very attractive. But, like, there are days where you just don't like each other and, like, well, at least you look good. Maybe I'm really vain and shallow.

[C]

That was true. Well, what we always say is, on a scale of 0 to 5, 3 out of 5 is good enough. Like, moderate attraction is good to start with. Yeah. And we'll talk about it later. But especially for men, because of porn in the digital age, our compass and our objective scale of beauty is so jacked up, you know, we don't even know what a true natural beauty is or what's realistic.

[B]

That's such a good point. I want to come back to that because, like, even in 1988, like, there was. If there was online porn, I was completely unaware of it. Nobody had the Internet, you know, back then, and it was really hard to get. And so I feel like I'm one of those guys. I don't have a porn addiction. And it was probably just. It's not that I haven't seen it before in my life. You know, I have. But, like, it's just not a deep temptation because it was such a stigma. So hard to get, and I wasn't raised on it. That has completely changed.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

To the point where 98% of guys.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Have had exposure.

[C]

It's devastated an entire generation of men. And, you know, 1. The fact here is, your scale, 1 to 10, objective beauty was just what you saw at the grocery store.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

What you saw at law school.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What you saw at a football game. My scale, 1 to 10 because of porn, is so distorted and warped that a girl who you would have, you know, maybe rated as 7 or 8 is maybe 6 a 5 point. So that's the part. But we'll get to that later. But so Kate, Kate's gotten crucified on the Internet because she's gotten like, mega viral. Like 20 million views on multiple reels because she's called herself out for this. I wasn't initially attracted to my husband.

[B]

And what are people saying in the comments?

[A]

You called him ugly. I can't believe you do that. I'm like, I didn't say he was ugly. I said I wasn't initially attracted. And then in the caption, which nobody reads, I realize nobody reads not. The point is that it was because I was being superficial and I was hung up on things like, oh, the hair color and the style. And again, if it was 0 out of 5, attractiveness of like. No, I'm just. He is not physically attracted to me at all. That is a different story then. No, there was attraction, but I was hung up on age. I was hung up on the hair. I was hung up on these things.

[B]

I don't think Tony was like, like, deeply, like, the first thing she noticed about me was not my looks. Yeah, I don't, I don't think. And I, I, I, I can say that, you know, and I'll be interested to see what she has to say. But she's never like, oh, yeah, you were exactly what I dreamed of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you never hear that red hair.

[C]

Well, that's not typical. I mean, Scott Galloway, he has a really great theory. He's like, for the past few thousand years, men always had the public square and arena kind of to demonstrate excellence. So even though Carrie's maybe not a GQ model, I get to constantly see him demonstrate excellence in his work, how he operates, how he treats people. And that's what women could really be attracted to and latch onto. We kind of miss that public square and demonstration for men to demonstrate that excellence.

[D]

Totally.

[B]

And we had that. And you know what? I think Tony would say again, next episode, never speak for your wife.

[A]

Okay, we'll get her here next episode.

[B]

Yeah, we'll get her. You guys know her? I think she would say, because I've heard her say this, she was attracted to my confidence and she was attracted to my sense of humor. Yeah, that kind of once you can crack a girl up.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

They're kind of like, oh, you're, you're funny.

[A]

Personality.

[C]

Well, sense of humor is the number one attractive thing for a woman because it signals emotional intelligence.

[B]

I'm hilarious.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

No, but I always love, like, more off stage. Than on stage, people say, you're really funny. Offline, I don't know, when I get behind a microphone, it's kind of like, you know, I just interview comedians. Right. That's what I do.

[A]

You are very funny. Offline, I will say that.

[B]

We have a good time, man.

[A]

Like, no, it's true. But before I met him, I was like, oh, he's serious and, like, really legit. And then behind the scenes I'm like, oh, he's also super funny. But you were also that way. And I liked that about your personality. So that's another layer of attraction is just personality attraction.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

So it's not just physical attraction that matters. It's. There's five different buckets of attraction. I think people just don't weigh them well enough, you know, spiritual, emotional, personality, intellectual, physical. We always go by the physical mainly, right?

[B]

And personality maybe.

[A]

Yeah, and a bit of personality. But we don't weigh spiritual enough. We don't weigh emotional enough. And intellectual is. Sometimes that goes up and down for the person, depending on if that needs to be important. But they can be the hottest person if you can't have a conversation with them and you can't connect intellectually. Like, this is a pretty boring relationship, you know.

[B]

Gosh, you know, I listened to this podcast years ago. I might have told you guys about this, but. But it was some guy who made a lot of money, very young date anybody, right? New York City. It's not Scott Harrison. It's gonna sound like Scott Harrison's story. It's not Scott Harrison. But he said, and this is on a secular podcast, he said, I was dating models because I could get who I wanted. And he said he was in his 20s, mega wealthy. He's five dinners in with this quote, bombshell, whatever that means, and they got nothing to talk about. And he said, I changed my criteria because he said, I realized even then that I'm gonna have more meals with this person than any other person in my life. And if there's nothing to talk about, I can't be with her and Tony and I. Like, we've got a 13 hour drive at the end of this week as we head back home from Nashville. We are not 37 years in, not gonna be stuck for things to talk about. I don't know what that is. I don't know how that happens. But, like, it is fun and wonderful. And that was intellectual for me was a big thing. It's like I need somebody that I can spar ideas with.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

And she's great at that, yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Well, the personality and the intellectual one. Great way we say it is. Could you be stuck, literally stuck on an island with this person? How would that go?

[B]

That's a great question. Yeah. Yes. 37 years in. Yes.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Absolutely. The only one I'd want to be stuck on the island.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

We'd have a great time. We would spar, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. You would actually help me survive is what would happen. But also you'd have a survival skills.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

So, okay, so, you know, you have these reels. You've got controversial views, or at least views that are not. What are some other views on dating that you would not be because you grew up being born in 89. You would have grown up with a remnant security culture.

[A]

Oh, for sure. I was right in it.

[B]

You were right in it. All right, so purity ring in middle school. School, the whole deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's right and what's wrong with that?

[A]

Yeah, I think it had good intentions, but it had a horrible effect. You know, Josh, his book, I Kiss Dating Goodbye was. It just. It was horrible. I literally have high school experience of dating a guy and they, the youth people found out about it and they literally were like, you can't be in a relationship without our permission. And I was like, what? And so they made us come to meet with them. They had this whole pledge of, like, rules. Like, if you're gonna date, you have to be dating for marriage.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And here are all the rules. You know, if you sit next to each other on a couch, there has to be two pillows between you at all times, not one. Yeah, no. Using a blanket, only hanging out in groups, like there. All these things. And we had to sign it and we had to also, you know, meet with them every few weeks to make sure we're on a path to marriage. It was crazy. Okay. It was a wild time. We broke these rules. And then, you know, it's like the shame you feel because you broke these rules.

[B]

Cause rules are meant to be broken to some extent.

[A]

It was like, don't take it out of context. It was a hard time. You know, this is a really hard time. I don't know how much you grew up with it the same way, but for me, it created this huge shame based culture in dating. And it made me and the guy I was dating start hiding a lot of things because can't tell the truth. We didn't feel like we could be honest with the things we were struggling with. And so, yeah, I was in the. Right. In the middle of that it was a horrible thing. And, but I think that, you know, so a lot of people are still not recovered from that. But also, I don't think our dating world has gotten that much better even from that time frame, unfortunately.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Church Salary. So every leader I know, church Leader anyway, carries a pretty heavy responsibility. Honor your team by paying them fairly. But the question I always ask is, how do I actually know what's fair? So to talk about a new way to do this, I've invited Brad Hill from glu. Brad, how do you do that? How do you know what's fair, what's not?

[D]

Yeah, Kerry, I was really curious about this and I was asking the team recently at Church Salary, what's the most common mistake that they see churches making when it comes to compensation? And the answer was really clear. Churches often use just generic publicly available stats. You know, basically things you can get on Google to figure out what to pay someone on their team. And so often that's because it's just too difficult to get accurate data that's church specific or unique to your city or your role. And this results in leaders and teams that might be paid too much or might be paid not enough or some inconsistency therein. Right. So the good news is that Church Salary fixes all of that with their new version.

[B]

Okay, yeah, I've heard about church salary 3.0. So what does that software, that tool actually address?

[D]

Yeah, great question. You know, church salary 3.0 helps pastors and leaders answer things like, am I being paid fairly? Are we paying our team fairly? How should cost of living, education, experience, all those things affect comparison? And it uses real ministry specific data to give you clarity and confidence.

[B]

Well, that's helpful because it's more than just about, you know, what the salary line says. So this is the thing that gets me. Every leader I know wants to honor their team and lead with transparency. But it's hard to know where to start without good data. So if you want good data, go to churchsalary.com Carrie, that's churchsalary.com C A R E Y and start for free today. Did you have any thoughts on that?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, well, Dr. Cloud, I, he loved this analogy and I do too. Josh Harris, in that whole book and culture was born out of a car crash. He had a bad dating experience. And so the rule moving forward was, okay, we're just not going to drive cars. Like, we're just not going to do dating.

[A]

Basically, like, theoretically, he's like, I had a Bad experience. So nobody should do this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And a lot of people.

[C]

Yes, yes. And you know, so the big challenge was, I think for like 20 or 30 years there's just these generations that grew up and it was like, we don't know what to do. Like there's no real rules anyway. And so I think it just became like a household by household thing. I wasn't allowed to date till I was 17. And then when I was allowed to date, quote allowed to date, I had no idea what to do. My dad didn't teach me anything.

[B]

I was going to say good call or bad call?

[C]

Well, bad call in the sense of once I was allowed to quote, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what the heck I was doing. I was just screwing around when I, I didn't date until I was 24.

[A]

Even though you were allowed to?

[C]

Yeah, even though I was allowed to. I just, I would talk to girls, but I didn't really date and put myself out there until 24 years old, I'd say, and even when I did, I still had no idea what to do. Like, I just didn't have a set of rules.

[B]

That's like Scott Gallows, right? Like he's like a lot of young men, Gen Z men. Never talked to, never approached a woman in real life. Don't know what to say, don't know what to do.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I grew up like in the 70s and 80s. That's where my ideas were formed. And it was basically sex and dating was a lot of don'ts and not a lot of do's, just like kind of like purity culture, but not that extreme. It probably fed into purity culture, but it was a whole lot of just like, yeah, I don't really know what healthy dating looks like. I don't know what a healthy relationship with a woman. All I've seen is my parents, like, yeah. And they've been married over 60 years.

[C]

It felt like such a segmented, compartmentalized, super high stake, pressure filled, just arena. Instead of it just being, learning how to build friendship with a woman with a romantic interest. And when you depressurize, it actually really allows you to connect with them instead of just sizing them up for marriage on the get go. And then two, I actually think it allows you to show up way better as a man and as a woman.

[A]

Like, so you asked about a controversial thought that we have. Actually you saying that makes me think of don't date for marriage. Okay, now that sounds very controversial.

[C]

That's what you would Say yes, do not date for marriage.

[A]

But you gotta understand what I'm saying behind that is that we have put so much pressure on dating that going on a date means something way more than it should. And why are people not asking people out in the church? Why is nothing happening? Because there's so much pressure. It's like, I can't. A guy feels in a church culture, if he asks a girl out, that's his one chance in that church community. So if it doesn't go well, then he has no other options as to how he feels. And on the girl side, they end up talking poorly about him. So it's kind of legitimate that the guy feels that way.

[B]

Blew my one shot.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And he gets roasted in the group chat, you know?

[A]

Exactly. And the girl blacklists him and is like, don't date this guy. Because this, that, and the other. And so obviously we have a lot to say on that. But I think the point is why? Why? Let's depressurize it. Go on a date to see if you want to be in a relationship with that person. Dating should be the means to figure out if you want to be in a relationship. Relationship is to figure out if you want to get engaged. So the stages of dating shouldn't be single dating, engaged, married. It should be single dating, relationship. Engaged, married, relationship is where, hey, we are committed. We're ig official. Okay. I am bringing to my family gatherings.

[B]

What's that?

[C]

Soft launch and hard launch.

[B]

Please explain.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, gosh.

[C]

Soft launch. Is this.

[A]

Yeah, just a photo on Instagram of our hands. It's a soft launch. Somebody. Now I'm. I have someone.

[C]

You know, you can see us. We're official.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Officially tagged.

[C]

Just to be helpful, you know.

[B]

Soft launch, hard launch.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like a tease versus the. The real thing.

[B]

So is the hard launch the engagement or. No, you're just a couple.

[C]

Most people. Hard launch when you're in an exclusive relationship. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

But some people are hard launching and they've went on three dates, and I'm like, what are you doing? You don't know this person yet. Stop it.

[B]

Yeah. There's all these unreal certain rules. Right, Right.

[C]

And it's that hyper, intentional culture, I think, that gets us in a lot of trouble.

[B]

So ours was. Ours was. Do you want to go out with me? Yeah, that was it. And when it was like, well, this isn't working out. Well, we didn't know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know what it meant. I asked girls do you want to go out with me? And they're like, yeah. And then you go to the show and you're like, well, that wasn't very interesting. And then you just go and do it again. And I guess if you do it enough times, you break up with somebody.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Right? Like, I don't know. I mean, but now it's all. But that was all private.

[A]

Yeah, that was all private.

[B]

It wasn't public. We weren't posting to each other's profiles.

[C]

But now the word date is, is

[A]

so ambiguous because back in your day. I'm sorry, that just.

[B]

No, you can say old. That's why we're doing this.

[C]

Back in your day.

[A]

Back in your day. No, truly, people, guys could ask a girl out and it's like, this isn't a marriage proposal. Okay, we're just going out.

[C]

Is that true? That was an.

[B]

You were expected to date. You were expected to break up five, six, seven times long before you found someone. The pressure was low. I mean, where it got serious is where you started talking about engagement. Like, is this something? And there were a couple of girls that I dated before I met Tony, where that was a conversation. And then I'm like, no, this is not gonna go well. And so that, then it gets awkward, then It's.

[C]

As a 30 year old hearing that though, that blows my mind.

[B]

Why?

[C]

Because that's unheard of. That for me is like, I can't even fathom just walking up to a girl and be like, it's mutually understood too. Hey, do you want to go out? And it's just a, like a friendship hangout.

[B]

So then what, what happens now then?

[A]

So what happens now is because of the outskirts of Ikea, stating goodbye and just unwritten like things now, we don't ask people out because it's way too much pressure. Because somebody of the pair probably has a high expectation of what that means.

[C]

Like, it's almost like a marriage proposal.

[B]

So what do you say? Do you want to grab coffee?

[A]

No, you should say, I want to go on a date with you. I want to get to know you. But we need to rewrite the definition of like what a date is. And that's what we're trying to do. And that's what I think leaders and pastors can do in their community, if they're leading a community, have tons of singles. Like, they need to emphasize, guys, you should be able to go on dates. It not work out. And you still show up to church and you're okay.

[C]

And you can be fake.

[B]

Okay. This is why we're doing this stuff. I am so dumb on this stuff. Like, I thought I'm dumb. I'm like, really dumb. I really don't know what's going on. But I would assume that you could just ask someone out, like, hey, if I was single today, I'd be like, hey, you want to grab coffee? You're kind of an interesting person, whatever. And maybe, obviously, if they're my generation, they might understand that because they have the same life experience that I do. But if you were to take my life experience and put it in a 30 year old, I would just be like, hey, you want to grab coffee or go see a show or something like that. And. And I'd be like, blah, blah, blah, you know, that's fine. And you're like, no, wait, wait.

[C]

The other person, you might be like that, that's great. But the other person's most likely not.

[A]

And that's where we need the leaders to step in in these cultures of singles to depressurize it. Because if they hear their leaders talking about, like, let's depressurize this. It's just coffee, it's just tacos. It's right, like, it's not a big deal. Now there's some parameters, like, don't make out with this person on the first date. You know, like that's where it becomes awkward. Don't like, bring her, you know, 24 roses on the first date. I mean, this is just a 60 minute hangout with somebody that you're interested in. And if it doesn't work, that's also fine.

[B]

Hey, coffee was fine. Probably won't do it again.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And here's the thing I got to. In my dating life, which I am proud of, is I would go out with guys one, two times, maybe three. Realize this isn't for me, but this guy could be great for a friend of mine, actually.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

And actually, if you're open to it, I might. Would you be open to me setting you up with one of my friends?

[C]

Super uncommon.

[A]

And I. Yes, I would try to set guys up with other girls I knew because I was like, I don't think this is going to be it for me. But you're still a good guy. What about one of my friends? And I did hook some guys up with some of my friends.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That is one thing in culture today that's like unheard of, you know, to try and do that.

[B]

So I want to get to the rules. I want to back up again a little bit more. Then we'll come into like, what should we do? Because maybe you guys are not as clueless as I am, but this is like a real education for me and this is why I wanted to have

[C]

fun to talk about.

[B]

Yeah, because like, honestly, we're doing relationship series based on decades old information that doesn't apply. Or a decade old. Like I'm sure in the life cycle of Gen Z, you know, if you're 40, you're ancient, right? Like you don't, you don't know what's going on. You've been married for 15 years. You don't get it. You were on AOL. You're not, you're not in our world. But you said you had some bad dating experiences and some good dating experiences and I know that you've been pretty public about that. So, you know, were you a Christian at the time? How did that happen growing up, like just to the comfort the, the extent that you're comfortable sharing what happened? Kate?

[A]

Yeah, I didn't really. I grew up Catholic, became more of a Christian in high school, but I was a very loose Christian. I would say it wasn't until after a really hard relationship. So right before I get to that, I definitely saw identity out and affirmation from men. And so high school I was a serial dater. I dated all the guys.

[B]

You started at what age?

[A]

Everybody at around 14, 13, 14. And there was a decade of my life of dating basically nonstop of never being single ever, pretty much for more than a week or two at a time. And so I always was recycling through guys. It sounds horrible now, some of that. I did have longer periods of relationships. I dated a guy for five years and that was also still very unhealthy. But in that I crossed boundaries, I really did things that I. That wasn't good for me because I wanted to get connection and I wanted to seek that male affirmation. And so a lot of that came also into the belief systems I had about myself were really negative and I was internally self abusive, I would say. And so at the end of that 10 year stint, I started dating a guy who was very abusive and started emotionally, it became physically abusive and.

[B]

And this was a Christian?

[A]

Yes, it was a Christian guy. Yes. And actually he broke up with me once because he said I wasn't Christian enough for him. So funny. But anyway, we did this whole song and dance of breaking up, getting back together so many times and that's a pretty typical pattern. Yeah. And so that relationship was my first exposure to gaslighting, cheating. Yeah, eventually actual physical abuse and I did get a restraining order on him, but it was a whole season of. I didn't even believe the restraining order because I was already in this mindset of I made things up and I'm crazy and I'm the problem. And so there's a lot to unpack there. But that relationship ended, and I'm so grateful because I feel like that was a crossroads in my life of either I'm going away from the Lord and I'm just gonna go into this dark, dark place, or I could run into a healthy community, run into the Lord and really seek healing. And I was in an unhealthy church community at the time. I left that church community, left this guy, and got embraced into a really healthy community, really healthy friendships, and started a really long journey of healing. And so I took a season off dating for the first time in my life. And like, around 23, 24. And I was like, no, dating for me. This is. I need to figure out.

[B]

23, 24.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, I need to figure out who I am outside of men. Like, I just didn't really know who I was because I had dated so much, and I lost myself in that. And so that was my season of intense healing and therapy. First exposure to therapy. And it was when I was coming back on the scene to day that I was researching all the stuff to know about how to do it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. And still hard of dating hadn't started yet, but that was when I was trying to. And I started dating again in a new way. Still lots of bumps in the road. Okay. Still didn't always date the right guy. Still sometimes was attracted to the guy that said the right thing, but. And I got hooked on it versus seeing his character, you know? And so. But I learned a lot through that second phase of my life in dating. And that's when I started hard of dating. And so I kind of feel like.

[B]

And when was that? What year?

[A]

2018. 2018. Yeah. Yeah. So. And that came off the heels of another huge breakup I went through to a Christian guy who was a decent guy and just still saw that I was still deeply insecure. And it was a really helpful thing that he broke up with me. My first book is called thank you for rejecting me. And a lot of that I attribute even to that relationship and him ending it because I needed to be broken up with in order to really realize, wait, this is the final time, Kate, you are not putting your identity in relationships anymore. Like, this has gotta stop. So heart of dating began. And. But, yeah, That's a lot of my journey is dating. I dated all different kinds of guys. Every, any guy under the sun is what I've dated in the past.

[B]

Including guys with blue hair.

[A]

Including guys with blue hair.

[C]

See the rainbow, taste the rainbow, date the rainbow.

[A]

And actually indeed dated some guys that were, that went the other way eventually. So there you go.

[B]

So, you know, one of the things I've picked up just with some of our younger friends and our, you know, the people that I know that I track with is a lot of insecurity around dating. And guys are kind of afraid. You're either the super macho type that just, you know, going, going out to conquest or you're kind of afraid to date because you don't know where the trip lines are. You don't want to hurt people. And then women just feel so much pressure. That's what I'm picking up. So I'd love to, for you to walk us through some. We started this already but some of the dynamics of dating today just, we'll leave it there because I'm just going to assume if you're of a certain age, you don't know what's going on. But if you're dating today through your experience and then now you're counseling people 10, 15 years younger than you who are probably late teenagers, early 20s, what are people facing when they're dating now?

[A]

There's some big issues in dating right now. Yeah. Do you want to go into the male and female dynamic?

[C]

Well, my first thought was I, that might be helpful for you. Is the, the dating rule book. Everyone has a different set of rules. Great. That's what's probably causing the most chaos,

[B]

that there is no rule book.

[C]

Yeah. The dating is called the dating sequence of man asks out girl, girl says yes, man plans a date, man pays for the date, man drops off the girl. You know, X, Y, Z. Like that whole sequence now is kind of jumbled up. It's really unclear what the rules are, what the steps should be and that contributes to a lot of the chaos. Like if you could be in a 30 year old body and single and dating like your rule book is very, very different. And so I just think it's really helpful. Even what Kate just said about those steps and stages of relationship just having the same rulebook or expectations could be so helpful.

[A]

Like for church communities if they just could get some. I know, we don't need more rules. We just need a framework that can be helpful so that at least everybody in that church community can kind of understand Hey, a date doesn't mean a marriage proposal or dating is to figure out if you want to be in a relationship. Like if we could all try to get on those same pages, it would help dating, at least within that church.

[B]

Can you go through those stages again? The five stages of relationship? Yeah.

[A]

So single. We all know that. You know dating, which is an all encompassing word, by the way. I could say I'm dating, which means I went out on one date or I've dated them for six months.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So dating has this like, you have to define it. And how we define it is it's the stage of building friendship. Intentionally getting to know someone to see if you want to be in a relationship. Basically you're gathering data, you're getting to know them, you're not making out with them. You're like, I'm.

[B]

Oh, so dating to you doesn't include making out? No, no, it's just like you're not holding hands, you're not soft launch.

[A]

No, it's not super romantic.

[C]

A really good rule of thumb is date for 90 days, non exclusively. And at the end of 90 days, ask and see if you want to be in a relationship.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

People right now are doing it after two weeks and we're like, you don't know them unless you've been friends for years. Like that's not why.

[C]

And the whole point there is it's hard to walk away. Even when you're in a relationship, it's kind of hard to walk away.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And you're hyper committed to someone that you don't truly know.

[A]

When you've hard launched on Instagram, it's hard to walk away from that. Right.

[B]

One coffee date, it was amazing. We're official.

[A]

It's the same thing.

[C]

For like premarital counseling, it doesn't make sense to propose. Put a ring on the finger, a wedding deposit down and all these things. And then you go to premarital and get all the skeletons out of the closet.

[A]

We're big on pre engagement because we think you should start talking about those

[C]

things because it's hard to walk away once all those things are done.

[B]

There is, even for us, there was so much pressure once you're engaged, if you broke off an engagement, that's crazy. That was a massive deal. Like Tony, I think I can say this. She's not, not private about she broke off an engagement. It was the best thing she did. And I was almost engaged. And I'm like, I'm so glad I didn't because then you're like, you know,

[C]

it's so hard to walk away. It is very devastating and it still is now. So you want to gather that data before you make a big decision like committing. Because it is hard to walk away even if you know if it's the wrong relationship.

[B]

So you're single, you're dating, but you're not physical, you're not making out, no hand holding, no kissing, you're just, just exploring. Is there a basis for a relationship, a friendship? And then the third stage is.

[A]

And do I know enough to say I wanna be in a relationship? So yeah, you're asking things about their character, you're getting to know values, you're getting to meet core people, but you're not introducing them to your entire friend group and being like, hey, right, you're

[B]

not bringing them home for Thanksgiving or Christmas at that point.

[C]

Cause your closest people.

[B]

And you know, for me it would be. You mentioned values, but I would. The word that I would use is compatibility. Are you basically compatible? Are you gonna enjoy being potentially on a desert island or in a five hour car ride or the airport layover test, Right. Where you're just stuck at the gate with somebody?

[C]

Yes. And a last good C word is capable. Are they even capable of having a healthy relationship? Do they have the skills, do they have the maturity to lean in and do healthy relationships?

[A]

Yeah, you can talk the talk, but can you. You put it to practice and if

[B]

you do that for a few months, you're gonna know they're always late, they don't show up, they cancel at the last minute or they're always there and they're amazing and they're not. You'll, you'll pick up neediness right away for sure.

[C]

Are they reliable?

[A]

Can they have hard conversations?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Can they, can they take feedback and grow from it? That's probably the number one thing, right?

[A]

So in those first few weeks of dating, you're. There's no hard conversations yet. It's just fun. This is fun. They're amazing. This is like I feel butterflies. And so. So you kind of want to wait till you have some kind of hard conversation with them.

[B]

Okay, so then the third stage relationship.

[A]

And that's when you know the. Everyone says dtr define the relationship. That's when you're defining. This is like a bigger deal. I want to bring you home to my parents. I want to move towards getting engaged potentially. You know, I want to start working towards. Are we going to get engaged?

[B]

This is going somewhere where possible.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And is there like hugging, kissing, like physical?

[A]

Yeah. We ever. For. For that we say, like, you know, you need to know yourself, your history, all of those things. But in that case, you're more of a romantic couple, like, you really are. Yeah, we're holding hands. You might be kissing, but, like, obviously figure out your boundaries and all of that. But, yeah, this is the stage where it's much more. We're a pair, but we're not a married pair yet. But we're figuring out.

[B]

And now you're.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You're not dating other people.

[A]

No more abs apps. Like, everything's out of the picture.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Take your profile down.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Okay. All right, so this is exclusive. And then next is.

[C]

Well, yeah, next step is engagement. What's really helpful as far as timeline and framework. The first six months total. So the first three months, get in a relationship. First six months, you're trying to answer one question. Could I marry this person? The second six months. Because we recommend 12 months, a whole year, all four seasons. The second six months, you really want to answer the question, should I marry this person?

[B]

Can I? Should I?

[C]

Can I? Should I? Could I? Should I? Yes. And yeah. And then after 12 months, we highly recommend 12 months of total relationship dating before making that decision.

[A]

So it's like three months of dating, nine months of relationship. At least be with them for all four seasons. Okay.

[B]

Nine months of relationship. Funny. Tony and I, we met in September, started dating, as we would have called it, November. We were engaged the following August. So it wasn't quite a year. We knew, though, within a few months that it's like, oh, this is it. Like, if this isn't it, I don't know what it feels like. But we decided to wait with getting engaged because we thought nobody else will be happy for us, everybody will think we're crazy, and that we fell in love and it's too soon. It's not good. So we waited until the following summer until we thought people would be able to celebrate with us, and then we were married nine months after that or so.

[A]

Like, the engagement doesn't have to be that long.

[B]

No.

[A]

If you've done all the pre work, then you don't have to be engaged first.

[C]

But pre engagement counseling is probably the last big thing we advocate for.

[B]

Yeah, pre engagement counseling.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So do it before you get a ring. Yes, that's a great idea. Makes a lot more sense.

[A]

I mean, gosh, and the wedding invites and all the pressure, you want to get those skeletons out of the closet, ideally through, like, a pre engagement situation.

[B]

So when you're in A relationship. Go for pre engagement.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Then get engaged, and then. Ta da.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Then whatever, however possible, and get married.

[B]

What about these people who are, like, engaged for seven years? What's your advice for them?

[A]

Oh, that's wild. That's. What are you doing?

[C]

They. Yeah.

[A]

We just met a couple that have been dating for five, six, seven years.

[C]

And we were at dinner last Friday night with a couple, me and JJ

[A]

took everything in us because they were not there to get our dating advice.

[C]

But we were like, we're just meeting them one time. And I was just trying to be kind, and I almost was just like, dude, what are you doing? Like, what's the point?

[B]

What are your intentions?

[C]

I just. What's the point? You've been dating for five years.

[A]

No, two years is maximum. Like, you. That's. You don't need more than two years time to figure that out. One year is minimum. And a lot of people don't follow the one year. That's what I see as a bigger problem, is the one year doesn't get. Get bought into it.

[B]

All right, so it's too fast or it's too slow.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay. So this is super helpful. And again, those are some new categories for me that. That make a lot of sense. They do. Where do people push back on that? Where do you get the. That's dumb. Where are you getting that from your clients? Not from older people, but from the people who are in your programs, listening to your podcast, follow you on social.

[A]

I think two biggest areas is one timeline. People are like, like, especially the older you get. They're like, I just know I don't need to wait. And I say, I don't care. I don't care how old you are.

[B]

You also counseling people my age? Like, or, like.

[A]

Yeah, sometimes. Yeah.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yeah. So we have the gamut of ages, and I think a big core audience, too, still for us is, like, even 30s, because they're really. They really want to get married and they want to have a family, and clocks are ticking.

[C]

Especially women. Yeah.

[A]

So if you meet someone and your clock is ticking, you still wanna have babies, all these things. It's like they feel like, I'm gonna rush this process. And I'm like, wait, guys, no. Why rush the process? You never hear people regret just a little extra time with someone, but you feel. You hear people all the time. Man. I rush into that. And so nobody really regrets just a little extra time. Now, seven years. No, I'm not talking about that.

[B]

Yeah. But one or two years.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And whatever the age is, I think that's the biggest thing. Everyone always voice wants to be the exception to that. And I say the only times you're exception to that is if you have the best wise counsel on the planet. And they are involved and they're Holy

[C]

Spirit different on both sides.

[A]

On both sides. And they're giving it green lights and they've had lots of time with you.

[C]

It's like a communal decision at that point.

[A]

Right. And then, so then, because then it's not a silo decision. You had two infatuated people, which infatuation lasts at least 12 months. So if you have two infatuated people, they're gonna maybe think this is the best thing ever. You need the wise counsel to verify, hey, this is a really good thing for you. This is something you should do.

[B]

And some time for the infatuation to wear off as well.

[A]

You can see them as a real human.

[B]

Good news is three and a half decades in, I'm still mostly infatuated with mine.

[C]

You still have the rose colored glasses on.

[B]

There are days, but like most days it's like, yeah, she's, she's pretty. I'm pretty obsessed.

[C]

The funny thing about rose, when you're wearing rose colored glasses, every flag is rose colored.

[A]

That's true.

[C]

That's, there's no green.

[B]

It's working for me at this point, but not for you. When you're dating and I've seen that infatuation where you're so in love and this person can do no wrong and six months later they can't do any right. It's like you go from the very best person ever to the worst human that ever was.

[C]

Like, you see them through God's eyes.

[A]

Like, okay, we gotta be a little realistic. You know, when we, we tell people, we're like, if you are thinking about getting married to this person and you can't tell me one single flaw they have, you're not ready to marry this person.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

You need to be able to say, yeah, this person is wonderful. But they also have flaws. I know them, I'm aware of them, we've talked through them. Every person has flaws. So if you're like, no, they're just perfect, I'm like, this is 91 1. Do not get married yet.

[B]

One of the issues I hear a lot from younger adults is fear of commitment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Is that a thing?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And how is it?

[C]

Well, it's fobo. So fomo, you know, that came from Harvard research. The original term of FOMO was fobo, which was fear of a better option.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

And that's really what it is, dear.

[A]

Cheesecake Factory. Dilemma, Right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Too big a menu.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, I didn't have that. It was like law school. This is my graduate degree. I didn't think I was going to seminary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's kind of like, I better find somebody or else I'm going to be single. Like, that's fine.

[C]

And you really had that couple hundred people radius around you. It actually makes it much easier.

[B]

It does. Because I.

[C]

You want chocolate or vanilla?

[B]

Lots of followers. Exactly, exactly.

[C]

Now you go to an ice cream shop and it's like 100 flavors. So that's the. That's the paradox of choice in a

[B]

nutshell is Tony loves it when I say that, you know, there weren't a lot of better options.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

But there weren't for her either.

[C]

But I'm telling you, especially for men, it is the number one killer. If, like, you're a handsome enough guy who's got good character, you're personable. Their biggest problem is fobo. They have a really hard time committing because they are terrified of making the wrong choice. And there's this, like, naggering thought that my yes now might block me to a better yes just right around the corner.

[B]

Men have that yes. Is that because of porn?

[C]

It's probably because of porn variety. And, you know, really, if you're a handsome guy who's over 5 11, with a good salary, seemingly good character and personal.

[A]

Oh, you're top 10 of guys.

[C]

You are top 10.

[B]

And you have Galloway stuff too, right? Yeah.

[C]

You have a pick of the litter.

[A]

Every girl is wanting that guy, and that's a problem. And part of.

[B]

Why is height still a thing?

[A]

Height is such a problem.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Why? Like, I'm silly, too. And I. I have lots of friends who are 5, 5, 56 guys.

[A]

The average height for a guy is 5 9, which is average means. Right. There's lots lower.

[C]

It's evolutionary attraction. Kind of like emotional intelligence signals.

[B]

It is weird. Tony's noticed that before. We'll get in a room of lead pastors, and I'm usually fairly tall. 62 seem tall. And sometimes I'm like, I'm pretty average or below average here. A lot of guys are 6, 2, 6 3.

[C]

I think, like 68% of, like, corporate executive CEOs are over 6 foot.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like an astounding figure.

[B]

So height seems to be the case. You're moderately good.

[C]

It's the most power, strength.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you can take your shirt off at the beach.

[C]

But those guys, but keep in mind that's 10% of like this club. So 90% of guys are not even getting let in the club. And I think a lot of times what you hear is a microphone from women complaining. Where all the good godly men, that's a big problem. But a lot of times what people don't realize is the data kind of tells a different story. It's way harder in today's world for a guy to date than it is for women. Like the dating apps is not what

[A]

is being talked about.

[C]

The dating app statistics are mind blowing.

[B]

How so? Let's go there.

[A]

Okay, so 50. So a guy on a dating app will swipe right 50 to 60% of the time. Okay.

[B]

And again I'm, I've never downloaded dating app. Swiping right means you're interested. Yes, yes, I'm interested in you.

[A]

So if you see 10 women, you're

[B]

gonna swipe five or six and then they have a chance to respond to you.

[A]

Connect if they also swipe right on you. So it has to be a match both ways.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So guys will swipe right 50 to 60% of the time. Girls will swipe right 10 to 15% of the time. Okay. Which means the match rate for women is about 30%. The match rate for men is about 3%. So for guys to get matches, especially if they're not in that six foot club with a good salary, average guy. An average guy.

[B]

Average guy.

[A]

The Shrine Kings slash average guys. Okay. They have such a hard time and depends on ethnicity as well. So they're not getting that many matches.

[C]

Just statistically they have to swipe 250 times for one match.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And of those matches, it takes five matches on average for them to just get a coffee date. So they have to swipe a thousand times right to get one coffee date. That's what it's like for an average guy today.

[A]

For an average guy, girls, it's way different. But you don't hear the girls, you hear the guys not complaining and you hear the girls really loudly complaining about it. And I'm like girls actually on a dating app, you actually have it much better.

[B]

So you were saying the good godly guys is a bit of a smokescreen. Is that because they're not interested in good and godly, they're interested in tall and rich. What are you saying? I just want to be clear.

[C]

Well, tell them about the.

[A]

Yeah, another stat that is out There is, when asked, if somebody had 80% of what you're looking for, would you be with them? 75% of guys said, yes, I would go for her. 75% of women said no.

[B]

So this brings us into. I'm going to call it the list. I got a list of who this guy, the guy I marry has to be this. That's still very much alive.

[A]

Very much alive. And the reason it's also especially bad for women is women's emotional intelligence has continued to grow and their emotional healing has continued to grow. And so their standards for what they're looking for in that area is really exponentially high.

[C]

Well, and they make money now, so they don't have to marry a guy for money.

[B]

Right. Or to provide. Explain, you know, the fact that we're marrying later, having kids later. It's like, well, I have a career now.

[C]

Well, career's prioritized first. It's glorified by culture. But it's prioritized first.

[B]

Glorified, Right.

[C]

And then, so women, they don't have to marry now for income or livelihood or safety. They can make their own. Okay? Which is fine. But secondly, now that a guy doesn't really have to be the breadwinner, they kind of move on, which is the way for 2,000 years, right. We kind of made this exchange.

[A]

Married, she's gonna take care of you. Right.

[B]

I only have to go back to my grandparents to know that's largely true.

[C]

Yeah. And so guys could be a provider first, maybe emotionally, not to be the most healthy, but, you know, they're given the protection. And then also on the inverse, guys mainly married, for one thing, which was sex, that was withheld. Now they can have that anytime they want. Want, Right. Or a version of it.

[B]

Well, with AI already.

[C]

Right. So the two main motivating factors for even getting married on both sides have kind of been stripped away. Okay. So women now say, okay, maybe you don't have to be a breadwinner. You don't have to be the. I can do that. Maybe you can be emotionally healthier, intelligent. And that's not really a skill that we've kind of maybe taught men growing up. So women really don't. At the end of the day, though, to summarize it, women want to marry up into the right. In every category.

[A]

So if I'm making a hundred thousand, I want him to make a hundred thousand.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Or a hundred twenty.

[A]

Yeah. I want him to be this. I want him. If I've spent 10 years in therapy, he needs to have spent 10 years

[B]

in therapy or more if I go to the gym. He really goes to the gym.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

And what do guys want?

[C]

I think they're a little bit more willing to compromise on some of those areas. Like, you always hear the old, you know, adage like, oh, he'd marry the waitress, you know, or he walks in and marries the innkeeper. You know, he's just this poor old rag girl who's beautiful. I think men want a beautiful woman. That's still very true. The problem is their definition of beautiful is warped.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, we're basically looking for, like, a porn star Kim Kardashian body with, like, a Beth Moore kind of, like, character. He's also got the emotional maintenance of my best guy friend.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Who's emotionally dead and suppressed.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And chill.

[A]

She's not needy.

[C]

Like, that's kind of what they want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's all these expectations.

[C]

Yeah. It's kind of like a stalemate. Yeah. A lot of that is the kind of cultural war bleeding into the church.

[B]

It is, you know.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So how do you counsel people? How do you get past this? And one other question that's sort of dangling from earlier. So, you know, I don't know the dating apps, clearly, but if I was single, can you still just go up to somebody in real life and go, hey, you want to grab coffee sometime? No. Or is that weird? Do you get arrested for that now?

[A]

It's definitely a rarity, but I think it can happen.

[B]

Why is it rare? Because of all the things we talked about.

[A]

It's not rare in the non Christian culture. People are still going to bars and asking people out. But in the Christian culture, like, I

[B]

see the movies, and it's still happening in the movies. It's still happening.

[A]

It's still happening.

[B]

Hey, you want to grab a drink?

[C]

Drink.

[B]

Right. You want to do this? Like that happens in the movies.

[C]

It still happens. This all still happens. We're just kind of talking about, like, maybe the negative, more dominating side of where we're failing.

[B]

But this is sitting out there on a Sunday morning, and we don't. I don't know it. I won't say we. I don't know it. And that's why it's so important.

[A]

You will have almost any leader or pastor listening to this, who can think of five solid single women.

[C]

Oh, man.

[A]

In their 20s, 30s, maybe even 40s, that they're like, I don't understand why this person's still single.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I just think of that.

[A]

Very common.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

This is why and that girl, for 10 years of her life, from 21 to 34, 13 years, didn't date. She has just been on the sidelines. And that was a huge mistake. A lot of women are kind of reconciling this fact of, oh, crap. For 10 to 15 years I was supposed to wait, wait, wait, and it never happened. Oh, shoot, another time. Clock's ticking.

[A]

And they're like, I need to find someone now. I have all these standards and I can't, I'm not gonna settle. But I, so it's, it's complicated. I mean, so what, how would we combat this? I would say one thing. I, I, I will speak to the women. You can speak to the guys. I, I say to the women all the time. First of all, ladies, please don't expect him to be in the same amount of therapy that you've been in. What we're looking for is where he's at and where he's going. Okay. Where is he headed? He may not have the same language with you as attachment styles and enneagram numbers and all of that stuff. Okay, girls buy more of those books. It's just women buy the self help stuff and guys don't. That's statistically proven. So if we know that, then let's stop having the expectation that he has to be exactly where I'm at in terms of all of the knowledge I have, have emotionally, I'm more concerned with what's his community like and where is he teachable, Is he willing to go down that road? So if you date him and he doesn't know he's avoidant attachment style and it comes up, is he willing to do some work on that and is he willing to say, this is kind of an issue. I never had to address it before, I'm gonna address this now. Does he have community and people in his life speaking to him? And so we have to be, you know, but I'm not saying date potential in the way of like, you can help him and you can change, you

[B]

can make him better.

[C]

Yeah. Although you did do that.

[B]

So did my wife.

[A]

But it's like, hey, let's focus on where he's headed versus just where he's at, especially emotionally speaking. And then I would say to the ladies, like, you have to stop complaining about the men. You have to. Because all I hear, anytime I'm in my DMs counseling women, it's just, there's no good guys. There's no good guys. But you don't get it. You've never been in my church, there's no good guys. I'm like, I am not blind. I see the guys, they are there. You're not looking at them because they're five foot seven. You're not looking at them because you are not confident enough in yourself to even be open to that guy. So you need to stop complaining about them and start praying for them instead. That's my biggest thing. We need to start praying for the men and we need to start encouraging the men that are doing it right. So start looking for that. Because the more you look for evidence of the bad guys, the ghosters that this, the more you're gonna see that. And so we need to look for the guys who are doing it right. Call it out. And we need to just be more open. It's why I say date the unexpected. J.J. was the unexpected. I use my story in that all the time. Date a younger guy, Date a guy out of your age range. Date the guy with weird hair, date the shorter guy. Just try it. Go on dates. Who cares? It's just a date. If we can, you know, if we can really remove the pressure.

[B]

Just. It's just coffee, it's just dinner, it's just a show.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Just think about that like pressure valve. Just like an instapot, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Like we need that so badly. Yeah.

[B]

For both sides. What's your advice to guys?

[C]

Well, one, I, I love that we've been on here. Over 30% of the church is now single. By the way, if you go to an urban church, it's like 80 to 90%. It's mind blowing.

[B]

I was reading a stat recently, late 2025 that was something like 62% of Americans do not are single or like not in a married with children. I've got that botched a little bit.

[C]

No, no, it's.

[B]

But like, it's insane when you think about the composition of who you're speaking to. I think a lot of us still have. Yeah. You know, honestly, a couple like you, right. You have a two year old, you got a baby on the way, you're married, you're in the suburbs. It's like that's who we're going after. And it's like that is such a small portion of the population and five years ago that was not you.

[A]

Yeah, right, Exactly.

[C]

Well, so 51% of the U.S. population is not married. The majority of America, the adults, are not married.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So if your church perfectly reflected culture and the demographics, which it doesn't. Right. Skewers to older and Married, older and more married. Yeah, exactly. But if it did, think about your sermons now moving forward. Half the people are single and half are married. Think about how differently we would preach. Yeah.

[B]

Think about even the anecdotes when you're not in your Summer Lovin series or your Relationship February series. Because it's like, you know, when you argue with your wife on the way home. Well, maybe that's true. 40% of the people there.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Like maybe it's not.

[C]

Well, think about this one. This one has been driving me nuts lately. And the best way. And I'm glad pastors are listening. What's the first thing people say when we talk about marriage? The enemy hates marriage. The enemy hates. The enemy hates singleness too. He hates any time we're flourishing in any stage of relationship. He hates that single flourishing just as much as he hates a marriage. Now, I get marriage is an amazing vehicle. I'm not trying to de. Glorify marriage. Okay, so that is one note of encouragement I give the pastors and the leaders listening. This is a growing demographic and I want it to be smaller, I really do. But we have to equip our singles a little bit better.

[B]

Yeah. And on that note, the quote, gift of singleness. Any thoughts on that? If it hadn't. I was 23 when I met Toni. She was a couple years older. She looks younger, but she's older. And again, get your wife on the episode. But it was interesting because I thought, well, maybe I'll just be single. And I was cool with that. And she had the same thought. She's like, if I can't find a Christian guy because we both committed our lives to Christ, then I'm okay doing the solo. That's way more of an issue now than it was 35 years ago. So what's your message to those who just. They've tried it? It just hasn't worked. Men or women, what do you say Is, like, singleness a calling? Is it something you can faithfully do? Because there is a lot of stigma, I think, in churches associated with not finding the person.

[C]

Yeah, like, what's wrong with you?

[A]

I think there's a lot of desperation because people want it and they haven't gotten it. And so that becomes also a frustration towards the other gender. Shame about themselves, and then also frustration at God. And so I would say we have to work through those things. Cause marriage is still a beautiful thing. And for many people, they are called to marriage. Like, there's a lot of people who are called to it. I just Think we have to. No matter what season you're in, we were just in this season last year of, hey, we're married, we want more kids, and we're struggling through miscarriages, you know, and. And you can want something and it's a beautiful desire, but it's how you process that desire and how much you idolize that desire. So wanting marriage and trying to pursue marriage and date is a beautiful thing. But if it doesn't happen, what are the stories you're telling yourself and what are you believing? Because being single is a totally valid pathway to flourishment for the rest of your life.

[B]

Paul says so explicitly. Wish you weren't married.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You'd be more devoted to God. And I think there's truth in that. After. I love my kids, I love my marriage, I love my wife, but your life looks very different and you are less distracted.

[C]

Well, and John Tyson was talking about this. He was talking about what you glorify from the stage, what you celebrate. And I think we've done a really great job of celebrating married couples. We've had amazing love stories. And that's, you know, like, we're not really celebrating. And I want to as well, but when's the last time you celebrated and glorified a single who's just doing an awesome job and maybe even committed to

[B]

celibacy and not feeling sorry for them?

[C]

Yeah. And just saying this is amazing.

[A]

Or like, let's celebrate that they got an awesome new job promotion because that's a huge deal, or they're doing something epic in their single life. Like, we need to celebrate those things just as much.

[B]

Or they discipled this person.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, yeah, yeah. You celebrate someone just doing singleness. Awesome. And my hot take is you would never have to give even a sermon on the gift of singleness. If you're really celebrating and glorifying people who are doing singleness awesome. Because people can see it. You're giving them an archetype, a story, an example to follow.

[A]

Well, that's the other thing. I mean, how many leaders at a church are single? Exactly.

[B]

It's a ridiculous numbers on that. Like, vast majority of senior pastors are married. There's very few.

[A]

You.

[B]

And if you're single, maybe it's because you got the job at 24. Right. So, yeah, that's true.

[A]

But at least that's what I'm seeing. And I'm the church community or I'm on staff. And I'm like thinking, well, yeah, the only way I'm gonna ever get, you know, rewarded Here, or be true leader here is if I'm married and that's not a good message for them.

[B]

So I kind of want to do a round of do's and don'ts. Because if I'm sitting there preparing my annual series or even a message or my anecdote, I want to play this back, get the transcripts, try to figure this out. This is eye popping information for me anyway. Personally, I just really don't know what it's like out there and you guys have been so helpful. But to the pastors who are watching this, listening to this, what are some do's and don'ts when you speak about family, singleness, dating, do this, don't do that. Just what hits you. What should we do?

[C]

I mean, dude, the first thing I want to say is thank you for taking time from the pulpit to speak to singles.

[A]

Do that.

[C]

Yeah, do that.

[B]

Speak to the singles.

[C]

That's awesome. And two, we want your wisdom. Like, please don't feel because of your age or you haven't done it in 30 years, like you have nothing to contribute. You do. We want your wisdom. I think just tailoring it in the best way possible so we can hear it. Knowing what the rules are, knowing what the boots on the ground are saying, and then applying that wisdom directly to those pain points, you know, those personal pain points. That's a huge do, right? Huge do.

[A]

Yeah. I would say try to. I know this is hard because most churches are focusing on marriage ministries, kids ministries, but can you try? If you have a decent demographic of singles, you need to focus on the singles. You need to have some kind of singles ministry or you have to do something to invest in them because these are the people that will be in your marriage ministries if you serve them well. And so I would really just challenge pastors, like, hey, if you don't know how to do it, get, get. I know you have single people on staff.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Get them involved.

[C]

We're making a guide for this actually right now. Good. Just basically how to, how to create a third space. All they really need is a space.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And they, they will connect and hang out and build that friendship.

[A]

And it's not just young adults. Okay. Because I'm not just talking about like, because the.

[B]

As 30 year olds, 42 year olds don't.

[A]

If you just say young adults and it's like 18 to 25, you're the other half of your church. Congregation is like, great.

[C]

That's a good. Don't.

[A]

Not for me.

[C]

Don't call it just young adults now.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Because it's all ages.

[B]

So what are some don'ts?

[C]

Yeah, Young adults.

[B]

Young adults.

[C]

It kind of automatically excludes everyone after 27.

[B]

Well, and some people are single again. Like we have lots of divorces to church after divorce. More rare, but still happens after death of a spouse. Right. And they're single again.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we serve a lot of those people still too.

[C]

After 27, you kind of age out of the kind of college ministry, young adult ministry. You don't really feel like you have a home anymore. So then you're on like this no man's land from 27 until you get married.

[A]

Like, we're doing an event next week and on their website, I had to tell them, I was like, guys, get rid of it saying young adults. Because if you want our people to come, like we have people of all ages. And I can see the emails now. The 40 year old that says, hey, this is young adults. Does that mean I'm not invited?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And so just eliminate that verbiage if you're trying to serve.

[B]

Like just make it all ages.

[C]

Yes, make it, make it. This here's another good. Don't. I mean this is tactical, but it's funny calling it like a singles or calling it a singles mixer. Everyone's guards go up. Ton of pressure. Like you will have 90 women show up and seven guys.

[B]

Oh, okay. So what do you call it?

[A]

So we call it a singles night.

[C]

Call it like a dating night or a hangout. Like we're calling we have an ugly Christmas sweater party. By heart of dating. People read that and understand this is kind of a non married event. And it's just gonna be hanging out and fun and we're not speed dating. We're not doing anything cringy or it's just.

[B]

Is that a better moniker? Non married?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

I think so. Singles. I think if you call it a singles party. Singles. They're like, oh my gosh, this is. And the guys won't come because they're thinking the girls here are sizing.

[B]

I thought the guys would come. I don't know any of this stuff.

[A]

35 year old, I want to get married. My fertility clock.

[B]

I'm here looking for my men are like. Because I'm gonna get. What, judged?

[C]

Yeah, judged by peers, maybe. And then two, I'm gonna get just.

[A]

There's gonna be so much pressure. They're gonna want me to ask them out.

[C]

I don't know, like super high stakes. That's the whole point. Super high stakes, man. So that's why third space? Just super hangout. Like, I'm so passionate about that.

[A]

I would say another do is do more things that are, like, Q and A based, because a lot of people have, like, these sermons. But honestly, right now, with where dating's at, it's. There's so many questions. You can't cover that in a sermon and have it really hit people, like, in all their needs and answer their

[C]

burning questions that they have. Like, make it anonymous.

[B]

Well, if I was pastoring a church where you're attending, what I'm doing as a next step is. Kate and jj, come over here. Can I sit down with you for an afternoon? Happy to pay you for your time. I just want to pick your brain like this. I want you to look over my notes. I want you to see what I'm missing. I want you to see what I'm saying. That's tone deaf or outdated or whatever. I'm guessing that there. And I've done that increasingly when I'm preaching at our church, because I just know every year I get older. Every year I'm more out of touch. I'll pull in a group of Gen Zs or younger millennials, and I'm like, unchurched people. How does this sit with you? What are you thinking? Would you do something like that where you just pull in a couple of signals and then even words can really date you? I'm sure I've used some terms in this last hour and a half that you're kind of like, whoa, that's a blast from the past. Is there anything you can tell me? Because I'm doing this because I'm genuinely curious. Anything I've said that feels.

[C]

Yeah. Well, first I would just say this. Thank you. Because what I hear in that and what I encourage any pastor, is you're not bowing down. You're not losing this power struggle. You're trying to be as loving as possible to reach people where they're at 100%. Like, I'm obsessed. We talked about Amazon today. Like, obsessing with the customer.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

It's the same thing. I'm obsessed with my audience, and any barrier that gets in the way of them hearing the heart of Jesus, I want to eliminate date.

[B]

I do, too.

[C]

You know, so have those conversations. What might be a word that makes me feel outdated or not be taken seriously. That's a great question to ask.

[A]

Do you have any off the bat.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That I have said, Man, I would get to. Singleness is a super charged one. If you say those words just Be careful. Like, I'm praying for you. Because.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Why? Because you're basically saying, get over it. Yeah. Whatever you want, whatever disappointment you have, get over it.

[A]

Unless you're single, don't say it to the.

[B]

Any other fighting words? That's great. So gift of singleness and anything else you heard today.

[A]

Ooh, gift of singleness.

[B]

This is what we do. We just sit there, we read the Bible and we're like, all right, I'm gonna call this week the gift of singleness. Not realizing.

[A]

I would say contentment, that's another one. Because that's a loaded word. Again, we believe in these things, right? I believe you can find contentment and singleness and still have the desire, but the word contentment and they're like, just be content. Or, you know, also, as a married person, especially if you're a leader, it's so easy for you to say, you know, I miss that. Oh, you have it so good. It's so fun. Like, you get, you know, I miss my dating life. And you know, the more singles hear that, they're like, dude, are you kidding me right now? You have no idea what it's like to be dating and it's like to be me.

[C]

When you are dating and your peers and who are speaking on this, the amount of just train wrecks, heartbreak and pain sitting in that audience, probably you don't really understand or realize how much is out there. There's 10 times probably more grieving, pain, heartbreak, wreckage. So when you skirt over that, that's where that animosity.

[B]

So the empathy, the listening and maybe talk about your own failures, the relationships that didn't work out, the hard season. I know Tony and I, we've been through everything over the last 35 years. We've married 37 since I met her. And when we share out of our pain, like you guys have been part of that at a retreat, that's where we met you. That really resonates with people because I really believe people admire your strengths, but they resonate with your weaknesses. And so the more I share out of my brokenness or my problems, the more that probably resonates. Is that what you're saying?

[C]

Yeah, it resonates. And more importantly, just acknowledging, like I got off a call right before this, a coaching call with a 44 year old girl who's. We have to talk about her freezing her eggs. Like, what? What can I say to that? Yeah, you know, like, so that's the kind of stuff, you know, those are the kind of conversations some of the women in your audience are having to acknowledge, you know, like, think about what Kate just went through, through, you know, like we just, there's so much pain out there. So before we try to tell them, you know, what to do or appreciate your life. Yeah, yeah, like just acknowledge you're stepping into it. Just so much pain. So that's like any of the animosity or pushback or anything you get is typically driven by the pain of your singles coming to you.

[A]

And if a lot of pastors have told me, like, I just feel unequipped to talk to singles. So my biggest thing for you if you feel unequipped is, hey, as long as you just get around some of the singles in your community, have them over like you just said earlier, like, if you can be there teaching a message where you're bringing in stories of singles that you've actively talked to and they can feel like you've actually tried to step into their shoes, it helps so much.

[B]

I will often interview in a series. If I'm really out of my league, I'll interview some people. Is that a good idea?

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Like articulate people who can like you, you were single but you were also able to talk about being single. Right. In a way that was helpful. Yeah, that's always the key.

[C]

Get a 23 year old, a 33 year old and a 43 year old. Maybe one's divorce, one's never dated and one's dated all the wrong ways, you

[B]

know, and just be dumb like me.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

What do I not know? What do I not understand? Right. Rather than always being the advice guys giver.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, that's really, really helpful.

[C]

Yeah. And the easy way to do that naturally is just like adopt a single. At least always as a married couple, just have one single person who is always over. You're interested in, you're serving, you're loving, they're just around your life and vice versa.

[B]

And series, relationship series, good idea, bad idea. I still think we've been making fun, but like, I still think they need

[A]

it, I still think they want it. I think it shouldn't be the only time, like try to do things not on a Sunday for singles, you know, something else during the year. But yeah, I still think the relationship series is fine. I would say though, please try to give framework, please try to do more panels than just like do give me a message on the gift of singleness, you know, like they're over it. They're over.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And maybe, maybe also, you know, in the weekly analogies, because you're always giving examples. Examples. Doesn't matter what you're preaching. You'd be preaching about money, preaching about faith, preaching about scripture. You're always saying, so when you get home. Home isn't always in the suburbs with a husband and wife. And a kid.

[A]

And a kid, yeah.

[B]

It can be in an apartment by yourself. It can be increasingly living with roommates. It can mean a lot of different things. And so to make sure maybe that our analogies aren't always based on our particular reality, which for most pastors is married with kids.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

I mean, this is a huge demographic in your audience. This is not 5%.

[B]

And Annie F. Downs has talked about that on this show before, you know, and she's like, you know, and she's a teaching pastor at her church. But it's just really hard for singles because it's like we feel like we don't fit and. Well, I'm really grateful for this. Anything we didn't touch on that we need to talk about. This has been a good education.

[A]

We really covered a lot of what we wanted to say.

[C]

I would probably say the last thing is it's so easy to forget. But when you were 23, 24, when I was 25, before I met Kate, probably the number one thing that is fighting for their attention to focus on Christ and worship your message is who is the other attractive single person here that I could talk to? Like, that is. I think we forget that this is the number one thing in a single person's brain.

[B]

And it doesn't matter where you are, doesn't matter.

[C]

It never.

[B]

Coffee shop turns off.

[C]

So just remember that, like, this is the top of mind thing. Always 24, seven for them. And so that I would say that's why a series might not be enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well.

[B]

And I think too, it's in the small illustrations, anecdotes, 52 Sundays a year that you really set the culture. And if you bake what we've been talking about for the last, you know, for this episode into that culture, it's. It's gonna seep in. It's not like one. One message and done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I mean, most people aren't even there for the message. So it's in your emails, it's in your social media. What are you normalizing? How are you empathizing?

[C]

I. I did a ministry time at church two weeks ago and just in that prayer or like, kind of talk for 15 minutes, I just mentioned one thing about us as a single. What are you looking at or doing at 10 o' clock at night on a Friday night. I think I had 10 people come up to me. I've actually never had so many people come up to me after, like a little message and just say, thank you so much for praying for the singles. That meant so much to me. I was like. I mean, what, it was like five seconds. Yeah. So this is a great example.

[B]

So put us in touch with your resources. Where are people going to track with you online?

[A]

Yeah, heartofdating.com, the podcast on YouTube, anywhere. We do a mentorship program that. Where we really get to walk people through how to date. Well, I mean, a system of 16 sessions that we teach, live with them, and we walk them through everything. And so that's school of dating. We're really passionate about that. But yeah, we have tons of free, I mean, podcasts out there, free resources, all the dating personality quiz.

[C]

Yeah, I want to see yours, actually.

[B]

Well, that'll be fun, Tony. And I'll do that. See whether maybe. I don't think this was a mistake.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

How do I. No, but you know, that compatibility, it's really important. It's gotten us, our values, our compatibility, our faith has gotten us through the bad times, the good times. And you know, we've been in Nashville now for almost a month, heading home soon. It's like, this has been a really good month. We had one little hiccup that lasted about 30 minutes, just relationally.

[C]

And.

[B]

And you eventually, you guys are in the hard work season right now. You are three years into your marriage, but it really bears fruit over time. And that's. Yeah, this has been really helpful. So I want to thank you. I'm really glad. I'm like, hey, would you guys come on just to talk about this stuff? Because I have learned so much.

[C]

No, you're great. Thanks so much.

[B]

I appreciate you both personally and really appreciate our time, time together today.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Well, I hope that was helpful. You can get the show notes in the Art of Leadership Academy. That's where you put them all. Join over 15,000 pastors, church leaders who are in the academy. You can set up a free account for that. Just go to theartofleadershipacademy.com you'll find everything in there and want to thank those of you who are tuning in for the first time. I imagine a podcast like this is bringing in a lot of you who are here for the first time. So give us a like or a follow. Also, maybe subscribe where you're listening to this podcast. We still have a lot more listeners and viewers. So make sure you do that. And we're back next time with a fresh episode. Chelsea Smith joins me. And we're going to talk more relationship. That's going to be a lot of fun. Love, Judah and Chelsea. Also got a lot of incredible guests coming up. And including John Crist, we've got Arthur Brooks returning to the podcast and a lot more. So when you follow, you will get all of that automatically. Thanks so much for listening. And I hope our time together today maybe helped you and your church identify and break a growth barrier, perhaps with singles that you're facing.