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The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 792 | I Wanted to Quit Everything: Jennie Allen on Suffering, Spiritual Warfare, Lies Leaders Believe, and Not Giving Up
01:17:41
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- [00:01]
Jenny Allen
The Art of Leadership Network. All summer, I felt abandoned. I felt used by God. I thought, wow, when. When I'm leading something that's impacting the world, I feel protected. I feel held up. I feel. And I. I struggled with God. Like I was angry. I was. I felt abandoned. I felt. I don't know, I just felt like he. He didn't care about me.
- [00:35]
Carrie Newhoff
Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. Hey, if you ever wanted to quit, you're in good company. I've wanted to quit at times. And today I'm sitting down with Jenny Allen and she talks about wanting to quit everything as recently as in the last 12 months. You know, when you go through those spiritual highs, like you kind of hit a mountaintop and then you just come crashing down. She had one of those years. And so we're going to talk about suffering, talk about spiritual warfare, lies, leaders believe. And we're also going to talk about not giving up. You know, 24% of you who are listening right now, if you're a church leader, statistically, still want to quit. How do you not give up? I think you're going to find this to be really encouraging. A welcome to all of you who are brand new to the podcast. We continue to see the show grow every single month. Really glad. And you know how it does that? When you share it with your friends. Friends. When you bring it to your team, when you text the link, it makes a big difference. And when you share it on social as well. If you put it on social, sometimes we repost you. You can tag me. I'm Carrie Newhoff on Instagram and Cnewhoff on a lot of other platforms. If you want show notes, you can get them at Carrie Newhoff.com shownotes or go to theartofleadershipacademy.com set up a free account. You'll find it all inside there, as well as some great conversations. Jenny Allen is a Bible teacher, author, podcast host, and visionary leader. She's the founder of if gathering and gather 25 soon gather 27 with a vision to mobilize the global church. She's devoted her life to disciple a generation to see revival across the globe. She has written three New York Times bestsellers, inspiring millions of people to experience freedom in Jesus. And that's where we go in this conversation. So without a lot of further ado, my conversation with Jenny Allen. Jenny, we got so much to catch up on. Welcome back to the podcast.
- [02:26]
Jenny Allen
Love being here every time. Carrie, thank you for Having me again,
- [02:29]
Carrie Newhoff
it's a lot of fun. So it was a year ago that you did gather 25. Literally the biggest event in the world of its kind ever. We were so fortunate to have front row seats to it, backstage access. Tony and I flew down for it. It was amazing. I would love to know what drove you to want to do it and then what were the obstacles? Because I know you had a ton of obstacles in the way, even logistical. Right. Like, literally, it's never been done before. We got a lot of leaders listening who want to do things that have never been done before. So I want you to.
- [03:03]
Jenny Allen
Don't recommend it.
- [03:04]
Carrie Newhoff
Do not recommend it.
- [03:05]
Jenny Allen
There's a reason it's never been done before. No, it was. It was magic. I mean, when I think back. I mean, when I think back, I. You know, this was. It could only have been God. It was God as the literal front row sitter. I can't believe he did it. I can't believe he pulled it off. I. I Woke up in 2022 with a vivid dream that I'd had that Jesus was coming back soon. And it just, it. I was like, what would we do? What would we do if Jesus were coming back soon? I can tell you a lot of things we should stop doing. And I also felt like we should gather the global church and be sure that we are living out the Great Commission. I mean, that was his final word as he's ascending to heaven. We've got to be great at that. We're good at nothing else. Let's be great at helping people find their way to Jesus. And so I thought, well, let's just get everybody together because we're church planners. My husband was a pastor for 12 years in Austin, Texas. And we are church people and we believe in the local church. And we used to have potlucks. And we would have kind of a state of the church and bring everybody together, Everybody bring food. And we would talk about, like, with our. With our members and our most invested people. We'd talk about how the church is doing, what we need to do better, what we want to see God do in our lives. And I just pictured that, you know, I was like, let's have a big old giant global potluck. And that's kind of what happened. For 25 hours, we went live from every continent. And, you know, it was. It was the church on display. Like I've never seen it before.
- [04:46]
Carrie Newhoff
It literally was a global church. Yeah.
- [04:48]
Jenny Allen
When we dropped into Africa and the kids that were rescued from, you know, war Torn countries where they had been child soldiers started dancing and singing and talking about suffering. You know, and the whole. My phone is just blowing up. When we landed in Africa, and everybody's just crying and like that. You know, we just. We saw things that we needed to see. And. And I think everybody left very, very sober and encouraged that we are part of a really big team, that we are not confused what we're supposed to be doing right now. Like, we have a mission, and it's to help billions of people find Jesus. And I can't think of anything more important. And we can do it because we have a really big team, so we can do this. We need to work together, and we need to remember what he called us to. And so as far as obstacles, oh, I could go all day. I mean, it was the scariest thing I've ever done. I had no idea. Invited the world, and then I didn't know if it would work, you know, literally, physically work. We had 86 languages. We translated, 85 of them were accessed. It was. It was. You know, that's what had never been done before. And that was why we were able to gather the whole world was because of AI and translation capabilities that had not been tested in that format. So when I'm in the studios, the multiple rooms, I mean, 10 rooms of equipment and all the things that. That made it happen, where you've got. You've got, you know, people in Asia speaking Mandarin translated into English, then translated into 86 languages. All life, right? So it. It was a technological play and a technological miracle. And those leaders that made that happen in that room, when I'm talking to them the day before, they're like, we think we can do it.
- [06:38]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, So I remember touring it. You took us backstage, and your team took us backstage, saw the room with the bank of literally MacBooks everywhere, semicircle or a circle, and you're like, we think this is going to work. And, like, we're going live the next day.
- [06:55]
Jenny Allen
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was. But I just, you know, rarely in my life and ministry do I feel this way. But I do feel it where I absolutely know something is from God. I. I often, I would say daily, I feel like the Lord speaks in my life and gives me direction and clarity, and I'm so grateful for that. But for someone to say, I know it's from God, like that, that is a lot of confidence. And I would say he made it clear from that dream to other people's dreams in great detail. That mirrored mine, who had Never heard mine. That he did a lot of work spiritually, supernaturally, to be sure that I knew that this. I was supposed to do this. And I don't even know all the reasons yet. I mean, we're about to do it again in 27, and I'm excited about that. But. But this is a story of, you know, we'll see in heaven. You know, we'll see in heaven all the reasons that the global church should gather. But I'm really excited. We have so many good friends around the world that made that happen, that they open their churches, that open their Rolodexes to help us in those continents. It really is fun to work together on such a big group project because it took a lot of help, a lot of people.
- [08:16]
Carrie Newhoff
So leadership always comes with a cost. And I believe the plan was, after gather 25, you're going to take a sabbatical in the summer. And then we bumped into each other at an event a few months ago. And you're like, yeah, the sabbatical didn't happen. And it turned out to be. I had a very different 2025. I got sick, ended up in the hospital. I'm better now. I'm so grateful for that. But, man, that was a long road back. And, you know, you didn't have a medical thing, from my understanding, but talk
- [08:44]
Jenny Allen
about the cost of leadership.
- [08:46]
Carrie Newhoff
You did okay.
- [08:47]
Jenny Allen
We had an everything problem.
- [08:48]
Carrie Newhoff
You had an everything. Okay, so let's go.
- [08:51]
Jenny Allen
What happened? Right? So, you know, that was costly. I felt like I ran a marathon, and I got to the end of it, and it was, oh, you're not gonna run a marathon. You're gonna run an Ironman, so get on your bike, you know, And. And it was. I had to just submit to what God had me in for that season. And praise God, I had blocked my calendar because it was my husband's health so, so bad that we were. We couldn't leave our city because of the healthcare that we had here and the amount of testing and how scary it was, what he was going through. And so we were here all summer for him. And then I went through three rounds of testing for cancer, including biopsy, and that was happening the same time he's in the hospital. We had doctor's appointments every day. My husband, or my son, my oldest son, I think, has epilepsy. And so we're doing testing for him. My. My daughter is going through massive health. Health issues. And then we had. And that's just the beginning. I mean, I could go all day, and I don't want to make everybody just feel depressed. But work was really hard. My. I had to rewrite a book. I was working this book that we'll talk about today. I had to rewrite it this summer. I was supposed to be done before the summer, but I. Because of editing and just not feeling like it was right yet, I entered a whole nother season of writing for the summer. My organization was transitioning because after gather, we had to rebuild it and just who are we going to be and what are we going to accomplish and what are we going to do together for the gospel? And so all of that was in transition. And then there were some other things that I just can't share that were the hardest things, you know, the hardest things you never can share. And so, yeah, I mean, there was no doubt at some point when my dog. It was my dog, My dog almost died. And the day that that happened, and she's only three years old and that she. She got into dark chocolate. An entire thing of it. She's never done that before. When that happened in the middle of the summer, I call. I was like, oh, this. This is spiritual. For some reason. It wasn't like the 100 other things. It was the fact that now, like, you're messing with my dog, Satan. Like, get back. Like, no. So I, you know, I called one of the people that is a spiritual mentor in my life and we prayed together and. And it was the beginning of really recognizing, like, oh, no, this is spiritual, Jenny. And we've got to. We've got to pray. And. And it was. It's hard. You know, I still feel the. The repercussions of that, but I do see it differently because all summer at al summer, I felt abandoned. I felt used by God. I thought, wow, when. When I'm leading something that's impacting the world, I feel protected, I feel held up, I feel provisioned. I mean, not to mention we were on college campuses every. Every week, almost in the middle of the semesters. We were watching thousands and thousands of kids come to Jesus at the same time. We were. We were watching. I was watching ministry left and right in every sphere. I was in, like, miraculous ministry. Then it's time to rest. And then all hell breaks loose. Like, it felt like God disappeared. It felt like all my protection disappeared and I wasn't useful. And so where did he go? And I. I struggled with God. Like, I was angry. I was. I felt abandoned. I felt. I don't know, I just felt like he. He didn't care about me, cared What I could do for him. And it was hard. It was really hard because it just felt so. Obviously, I felt such supernatural favor and protection as I was ministering so hard. And then I felt the exact opposite when I stopped. And so it was so cool how God spoke to me. And it was. You know, it was the end of the summer. I was with some of my girlfriends, and one of them is telling a story about her house and how her house was a gift from God after a really hard divorce, and it was affordable, and it was just right. And friends flooded it and helped furnish it and just felt like a gift from God. And then a couple years later, she has a flood and there's mold, and her little girl looks at her and says, I hate this house, and. And I wish we didn't live here, and I want to move. And my friend just stopped and was like, you know, this house is from God, and let's remember all the ways that he's taken care of us. And it made me cry. And I walked out, said, nothing to do with me. She wasn't telling it to me to convict me or make me see things differently, but the Lord was telling it to me. And I went on a walk after that, and I just prayed out loud, and I was like, God, you know, I just told him how I felt, and I felt like he said, jenny, look at your life. Your husband is alive. Your son is okay. You didn't have cancer. Your dog is alive. And we could go down the list, and some of those things are not resolved, right? Some of the things I can't share are not resolved. But what I pictured, he was like, I didn't leave you. I was laid down on top of you while all the bombs went off, and I had you, and I wasn't gonna let anything happen to you. And I'm not saying that. I mean, I could have had cancer, and the same was true. Right? But I just. I saw it differently. You know, I saw instead of him running and going to the next person doing something great, I saw him like, I'm not leaving, but. But I also saw that the bombs are gonna go off. Like, you're not gonna be protected from the hardship and the shrapnel of that. Right? Because it does cost. And there's no. There's just. You know, And I don't want another place to be than in his will, which I was. I was. This summer, I was standing on a stage in front of millions. I was like, I was in the will of God, and it was Hard. Yeah. And the enemy came, I think in special, you know, in special form. I really do. And I'm not alone in that. Right. Like everybody listening is someone in leadership or leading something and they're small space or in a huge space and he's cut, you know, the enemy comes and yet there's protection. And I've learned a lot about spiritual warfare through this because I think I would have thought spiritual protection was. Well, just keep it way back. Like build the.
- [16:07]
Carrie Newhoff
Exactly. I'm not going to get sick. I'm not. Nothing's going to happen to my family.
- [16:12]
Jenny Allen
Right. Build a bigger perimeter, like let the bombs go off, like across a little further, you know, but. But yeah, there is a war and we're right smack dab in the middle of it. The more we obey God.
- [16:26]
Carrie Newhoff
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- [20:33]
Jenny Allen
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think there's suffering everywhere. I should be really clear about that. I don't think anyone escapes it. Right. This is, in this world, we're going to have trouble and all of us will have it. I think when it became clear to. That it was spiritual was when it was wave after wave after wave. And some. Many of them were confusing and did not make sense that were. That were not just. It was every week and it was systematic and it was every. You know that verse, that verse that says hard pressed from every side, I used to think that verse meant, like, I have four sides, you know, like, hard pressed from all four sides. And I was like, I have. Apparently, I have many endless sides. Because it wasn't just work, it wasn't just health, it wasn't just family. It wasn't just, you know, people I love struggling with addiction. It wasn't just, you know, it was. It was friend. It was every side. I was like, holy. Like, we got lots of sides of us. I didn't know I could be pressed on this many. So what I would say is my takeaway from this is a few things. Number one in this world, we will have trouble. Some things are just the fall. There is just a natural progression to our bodies failing us, to our pressures that we will face and our job being toil and thorns and thistles. Right? So there's a lot of. Just written into the fall was some pretty difficult relational realities, work realities and physical realities to our lives. Then there is strategy, and we know this from the enemy, that there is a schemer, and he is smart and he's been around longer than us, right? Yes. And he knows the human condition, and he plots and he plans and he hits at the right moment. So of course he hits me, right? He. He saved it all. Like, he pulled all the bullets out when we were headed to rest, because we would be vulnerable, because we would be tired, because we would be sad, because we would feel abandoned. But he had a goal. And his goal was not just torture. His goal was that I would doubt God and that I would quit and that I would pull away from my intimacy with Jesus. And I did. And I did all of that for the summer. I. I was hurting. I was. I was.
- [23:06]
Carrie Newhoff
Were you ready to quit?
- [23:08]
Jenny Allen
Oh, yeah.
- [23:10]
Carrie Newhoff
But no, I've been there.
- [23:11]
Jenny Allen
I mean, yeah. Oh, for sure. But. But not out of, like. Not out of. I'm so tired. I can't do this anymore. That wasn't my feeling this summer. My feeling this summer was God. Today is calling me to more. Like, a lot more, which I'm saying something.
- [23:35]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, it is saying something. You. You've done a lot.
- [23:38]
Jenny Allen
I've been on the front lines in a few ways. In the last few years. And. And when he did, like, there was a specific day where it all was just clarified. And I was like, I know what levers I'm supposed to. I know what I'm supposed to do. And it felt. I'd been waiting and waiting, and I hadn't. I hadn't known. And then I did. And today, what it feels like is a. It's almost like what it does to you is you're like, I am too compelled by heaven and Jesus to quit. Period. Okay. I'm going to say that with a period. And what it feels like is my arm is above my head and I'm taking a deep breath, and I'm so aware of. To go back in what I'm signing up for, And where else am I going to go? And I want to. I want. You know, the problem with me is I'm so sure it's all real. I haven't always been. I've had seasons of doubt that I wasn't. But I'm so sure he's real. I'm so sure heaven is coming. I'm so sure there's a hell. I'm so sure that I have things that could help. I want to do this, and heaven will be here soon. One of the things I wrote about in this book through this season, I had to write as I'm suffering. And it was a part called 5 or 40. And it was a devotion I was having one morning in Philippians, and it was, to die is to gain, and to live is Christ. And I was like, okay, I could go home, you know, Me too.
- [25:47]
Carrie Newhoff
It was like, yeah, to die doesn't seem bad anymore.
- [25:51]
Jenny Allen
That didn't feel like the worst option. And I. And I'm sitting there with doctors saying, like, it looks like cancer. You know, let's. You know, as my husband is possibly, you know, like, this close to having a stroke. And, I mean, and not knowing what that would look like. And so I'm sitting there going, okay, I could live five more years and Zach. And be caretaking Zach because my best friend had a stroke. I know. I know what that looks like. I could live 40 more years and be taking care of Zach. I could. Zach could be fine, and I die. I was like, these were real realities, right, for what doctors are telling us. And I was like, okay. I was like, how am I going to view this? And I'm like, okay, I can do anything for five or 40 years. I can saddle up and do this thing, whatever is called and necessary for me. And I think that is just such a better way to live. I know it sounds hard and long, but I've been through enough now that I'm like, we would figure it out. God would see us through. We would have people in our lives help. We'd figure it out. And I think that's where I am today is just, I. It's short. Whatever. However long it is, it's short. And God's real, and I'm compelled, and so I'll do what he says. But let me give one more secret, because this is key, like, why I can say that and why I'm so at peace today for all of it, for the pressure of it all. Because that's another thing when you're working the pressure of it all. And I would say this the way I do it is the day. Like, okay, but what did he give me today? Zach didn't have a stroke. And today, you know, I've got enough right in front of me. And so that really is how I am navigating all of this is just do the day really well, as beautifully as I can. Obedient, intimate with Jesus and see what happens. And he's been faithful in that, you know, he's good at daily bread.
- [27:58]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah. You know, you probably have a lot of empathy for leaders who want to cash it out. I was looking at the freshest Barna Data in late 2025. You know that, hey, number of pastors who have given real serious consideration to leaving ministry peaked in 2022 at 42%. So the good news is it's down, but it's still at 20. It was 42% at peak. Today it's still at 24%. So one in four people listening to this podcast is seriously thinking about packing it in. And I've been there. You've been there. You can understand the thought process. They've been kicked. Maybe not in the same way you've been kicked, but they've been kicked. What was the key to you deciding, I'm going to live to see another day. I'm not going to pack it in.
- [28:49]
Jenny Allen
Well, I think asking the Lord what to do or not do regularly is important. So I would say my husband was in ministry and is currently in business. He doesn't see it that way. He does the exact same thing he did in ministry that he does today. Right. Like, he is mentoring guys and ministering to people, and he's doing the same work either way. So I don't see a big secular ministry divide. But I do understand that there is a need right now for the people of God to feel compelled to stay and to obey, whatever that is, and to not walk away, because it got hard. I mean, I just watched Rewatched the Patriot.
- [29:47]
Carrie Newhoff
Oh, yeah.
- [29:48]
Jenny Allen
Remember that movie?
- [29:48]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, I do.
- [29:50]
Jenny Allen
And I was like, man, I mean, that war, it was just right in front of their front yards, you know, and they're sending their boys out to fight, and they were. You know, it just was. It was rough. It was a rough war, the Revolutionary War. And I just think, you know, they were torn, and not everybody went. Like, it was loyal to the crown to stay, you know, not to go fight. And yet they couldn't help it because of a cause that was bigger than their life. And I feel that way. I'm serving a cause bigger than my life, and I baptized a little girl from the University of Alabama who, a few weeks later, died in a car wreck. And she went from darkness to life. And we are serving a cause bigger than our life. And. And so our comfort, our ease, our, you know, having no spiritual warfare, I'm like, do I really want a life with no spiritual warfare? You know, do I want to do.
- [30:56]
Carrie Newhoff
Probably means you're not doing much.
- [30:57]
Jenny Allen
Yeah, some days, but not with what I believe, you know? And so I think we've got to come back to the purpose and remember, like, we are in this for a moment, for the souls of many people. And when that is the compelling force of your life, it shifts how you do ministry, why you do ministry. And we're human with limitations, right? And we're part of a bigger supernatural story. So I'm not bigger or more important than I think I am. It's. We're just. We're just each doing our part in our. In this thing that's happening on earth right now. And. And so that's why I love to stick in my day. I'm like, yeah, I did do that earlier this year, Carrie. Thanks for reminding me. Like, I. I hadn't thought about it in a few days. You know, it's like, that was. That was a long time ago, and today I've got to, you know, do things around my house to make sure we eat and live well, you know, so there's a reality, a mundane part of my life that I kind of stick with. And so I would just say to the pastor that wants to quit, we need you. I mean, we're looking at a moment in history where the harvest is really ripe. And in biblical terms, usually at those times, the laborers are few, so we need everyone to stay in the game, whatever that looks like for you. And to be healthy and to be well and to be able to do what God calls you to do. And so it's a fun, beautiful time to be alive. We've talked about all the hard, but I'm like, golly, let me open up the scrapbook and tell you how God's moving. Like he's never moved before on earth, you know, and it's really exciting. And so, you know, there's both. And it is. And we're needed when we're needed. And I would just say to the pastor, too, that's listening, that's thinking, man, I'm not seeing revival. Like, it's just hard and there's no reward. Then I would say, what an honor, because your reward is waiting for you. I mean, that's a real fear for me. I'm like, I've gotten a lot of the reward here. I've been the one that's, like, getting the rewarding parts and pulling up the crops and holding them in the air. And, you know, I just. I've been in that moment. But to those pastors that are not in that moment, that just feel like you're toiling, like, it really is true that heaven will be sweet for you. And it also is true that when revival really spreads, like I believe it is and will, that it could come where you are, and you wouldn't see it coming. And you wouldn't see it coming.
- [33:41]
Carrie Newhoff
Today's episode is brought to you by Compassion International. So as Jesus looked at the crowd of 5,000, he had compassion on them. He actually healed them, he fed them. And the text tells us that Jesus was moved with compassion. Like this deep gut sense of, this isn't right. I'm going to make it right. You know, compassion changes the way we give, the way we lead, and the way we show up for others. It changes the way our churches grow. And the legacy we leave behind will actually change because we had compassion. Because a posture of compassion, a heart geared toward others, actually changes everything. So the question becomes, what if you led? We led with that same posture in partnering with global churches. Compassion International has been serving children for more than 70 years, and they've seen that in all aspects of ministry, in all aspects of our lives. When we lean into this posture, compassion changes everything. You can download free resources and learn more about how compassion changes everything@compassion.com. carrie. That's compassion.com. carrie, what are you learning about spiritual defense, spiritual warfare, protection? Tony and I went through a really intense time of what we would say was opposition in the mid-2000s, just over 20 years ago. And I remember our prayers were almost daily. I was reading about spiritual warfare, and then things, you know, they got better. And I think I probably slacked off a little bit in the spiritual warfare prayers, but my counselor, Dr. Cuz, kind of resurrected that with me last year. And sure enough, as we're recording this, I feel great. I feel better than I've felt in a year. I think I'm healed. Like, I'm really, really thankful, but I've got to stay vigilant. And I'm just wondering, do you see the prayers of protection for you, for Zach? I also want to get an update on how Zach is. Are you handling that differently after the Difficulty that was 20, 25 for you?
- [35:49]
Jenny Allen
Yes. I've never believed more in prayer. I saw it turn everything. I mean, the day that I called my spiritual counselor, he was like, I was waiting for your call.
- [36:08]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay.
- [36:09]
Jenny Allen
And. And I was thinking I should have called sooner. And I, you know, we prayed for an hour. He and another one of his co, you know, friends, the three of us prayed for an hour. They prayed for me, and they had specifics. And I've become a very woo woo kind of Christian.
- [36:37]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay.
- [36:39]
Jenny Allen
So, Jenny, I mean, you got to understand, I graduated from one of the most conservative theological seminaries on earth. I continue to be a part of very conservative side of the church in every way. But I have seen too much. I have seen too much. I have been. I have met too many witches. I have seen too much of the darkness. I have watched miracles. I have seen. I've baptized students who, when they're telling me about their life and the witchcraft and the darkness, and I'm praying things off of them and out of them, and you see things happen. Physically, I've had similar encounters. You can't. You're not the same after that. You're like, oh, wait, now let me say this to anyone that's listening and going, oh, she's. She's gotten to off the rails. Whatever word you would use. I would say nothing that's happened around me. Not biblical. Like, it's all biblical and I am certain of it, and I can see evidence of it everywhere. And I'm going, wait, why did I never get trained in this? Like, this is all in the Bible and it's happening. So let me say this. The beauty of what God is doing on earth and the power with which he is moving and the miraculous way people are going from darkness to light and darkness to light is and everybody's talking about it and everybody's studying. It has also brought a season where everything is also getting darker. And so I just think both. All the spiritual world is more visible than it's ever been in our lifetime. I would never suggest ever, just in my lifetime. So what that means is that we need to know how to handle this. I mean, if you're a pastor that doesn't know what to do when someone comes up and says, I've been cursed, you need to know what to do. If you're a pastor that doesn't know what to do when someone is demon possessed. You gotta know what to do. You know, like there's just, there's some real skills and I can't, I'm not the one and I can't get into it today. But I have been trained more in that world and I have known what to do and it works. And so I wanna just encourage everyone that we are in a season with more darkness and with just a lot of activity for whatever reason. I could tell you what I think, but I don't think it's going to slow down. I think we're going to see it only rev up.
- [39:33]
Carrie Newhoff
Do you have a go to book or school that you follow around that? Because I've had similar encounters where I'm like, oh, I always believed it was true, but now I know it's real.
- [39:46]
Jenny Allen
Because you see, you know, I've actually just been really blessed with some spiritual advisors that God literally brought to me because I did not look for them. I didn't know I needed them. So what I would say is, ask the Lord to prepare you for what you need. And I often will ask one of them. I will say, gosh, what about all the people that don't know these things or don't know how to do these things or don't know? And he's so calm and sweet. He's like, people always have what they need, Jenny. And I loved that. I was like, okay, so I would just ask the Lord, like, lord, would you show me? And also just not be afraid of it, right? And that's the real thing is we can't. We don't need to be afraid. We need to feel equipped. At the end of the day, we have the authority of God and we get to talk to him, like, pray, whatever. You know, to pray, it's not like you need some special prayer or you need some special training. It's that I think what I was. I think because of what we did globally, we probably mess with Some principalities that aren't often messed with. I think what we do with students, I. I just think that there were some special signed things that came our way. You know, JP feels the same way Tanya feels.
- [41:03]
Carrie Newhoff
Like you and JP both had a rough year.
- [41:05]
Jenny Allen
Well, and Tanya has, too. So I just think anybody touching, like, some of this stuff, I think we got. We got some special ones, and I think the Lord knew we would, and so he sent us the right people ahead of that to help. So I don't mean to act like this is just the norm, but I'm hearing it more and more. Like, I'm just hearing people's stories more and more, and they're going, what do we do with the fact that there's a person in our sanctuary that walks around and curses on a Sunday morning? Like, what do we do? I'm like, wow. Yeah, you're gonna need to know. You're just gonna need to not be afraid of that. And you're gonna need people gifted with intercession and how to pray into that.
- [41:46]
Carrie Newhoff
Gosh, we could spend the rest of the episode talking about that.
- [41:49]
Jenny Allen
I know. And I'm not the one, you know, I mean, I'm still like, the baby that's figuring this out that's just seen too much. I just. But I. You know, and I don't want to scare anybody or discourage them. If anything, it's like, man, I've seen prayer work. I have seen prayer work.
- [42:03]
Carrie Newhoff
People deliver.
- [42:04]
Jenny Allen
So, yeah, for. For myself too. Like, I mean, not delivered in that way, but protected. And so I just think we've got to be people that value prayer. I mean, our church, I love our church so much. Our local church is right now talking about the Holy Spirit. And again, very, very conservative, awesome biblical church. And they just. As they've started talking about the Holy Spirit, they're realizing we gotta have more prayer. And so they're inviting people to come pray before church in the morning. Like, our church is just starting to pray a lot. I'm like, this is it. Like, if you want to know what to do to see God move, to see revival happen in your church, in your home, in your neighborhood, like, start praying and things start happening, you know?
- [42:52]
Carrie Newhoff
John Thompson, Toronto area pastor, has some great books on deliverance. And I don't know if you know John. He's great.
- [42:59]
Jenny Allen
I have met John.
- [43:01]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah. And then. And then I think John Eldredge. My memory's going back. I think he wrote about that as well. So we'll try to draw. Drop a couple links into the show notes on that. Jenny, I'm really grateful. Your current writing project talks about lies that are foundational. We sort of have our current struggles, but then we've got stuff all of us listening that's been with us since childhood, that continues to show up in your 40s and your 50s and beyond. And you're always so vulnerable. You're always so open, and I so appreciate about that. But you identified a lot that surfaced in your life when you were an adult that got planted when you were a child. What was that sort of core belief that haunts you?
- [43:48]
Jenny Allen
Yeah, well, yeah, this is tricky because we're very accepting of the lies that we pick up when we're young. We really believe they're true. And so that was actually why I named the book. What I named it was the lie you don't know you believe. And the reason why was because. Because I don't think I really knew. I still sometimes have to tell myself, like, that is not true. We accept it deeply when we've been told it our whole lives by the enemy or by even people we love that inadvertently have said those things. And so the lie that I have believed is that I am worthless. And so I have. You know, it didn't come out that way. That's not how I said it. That's the Psych 101 version of it. But what I said was, I am nothing. It is meaningless. Everything I'm doing is meaningless, and I am nothing. And it's just all going to go to dust, and what's the point? It was very ecclesiastes of me. And so when I named that, that wasn't so long ago, that was probably eight to 10 years ago that I named it with a friend that lovingly was teaching me actually how to pray for people and how to help them with their lives. And instead of teaching me, she was like, why don't we just do it with you? I was like, no, I'm good. Let's do it with my sister. But we did it. And I mean, before I knew it, I'm just weeping and aware that, man, this thing has. Has really been with me my whole life. And so, you know, the moment I remember believing it, I was 12.
- [45:38]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [45:38]
Jenny Allen
And many people at 6, many people, it's, you know, very, very, very young. They don't remember thinking thoughts without those thoughts being there. And so for some of my friends, there's three. I'm helpless. I'm worthless. I'm unlovable. Those are just from Psych 101 the common lies that all humans believe about themselves. The study and the research I did was, is there one core lie? Like, do we have one core lie? Because it feels like we do. And everything pointed to, yes, that something you picked up from a young age really does stick with you and becomes factual.
- [46:19]
Carrie Newhoff
So I'm sure your parents weren't trying to instill that in you. Some leaders listening would say, no, my parents. I remember my parents screaming, you're worthless. You'll never amount to anything. And it's driven them, haunted them for years. But your story was different. How did that happen? What happened when you were 12?
- [46:36]
Jenny Allen
Well, my dad, I love my dad. We have a great relationship. My dad pulled me on his lap and we were just talking about middle school. I was headed to middle school and I was. He was talking about boys and homecoming and cheerleading and all the things that prior to that I hadn't thought a lot about and was excited about. But what I heard and what I walked away with, he certainly did not mean he doesn't remember that day and he didn't mean to do what happened next. But I walked away with, oh, there's pressure. Like, I need to accomplish all of these things or I don't know how he's going to feel. I don't know how people will feel about me. And so that's the first time I really remember setting a mark and trying to catch it. And I would say that would go on and define the next decades of my life. That a line would be moving and I couldn't quite. I would get close and I wouldn't. And I would, no, I would even cross it. I would even go further than I thought the line was. And it still moved. It always kept moving. And so that was my lie. And yeah, I mean, my counselor is so funny. He, he will just laugh sometimes because I'll say, this one's different. Like, this isn't that one. He's like, nope, it's that one again, you know, and, and so, but what really got me and the reason I wrote the book, I mean, none of this is new to me, right? But what got me was that I'm sitting across from my daughter and she's telling me she's defective, she's broken, worthless. You know, she didn't use that word. And she's the most radiant, successful photographer, loves Jesus, married this amazing guy. Like what? Like I was rage filled right when this happens. I mean, angry when she's telling me all this and I'm like, obviously this is a Lie. She's like, mom. This is what she said. Mom, you're my mom. You can't say that. Meaning, this is true. Like, I believe these things. This is. You can't tell me they're not true. So that just broke me. And then I was just. I was so sad because I was like, this is my lie. And I gave it to her, you know, and how did I do that? Is this generational? Is this. Is this. Did I. I didn't parent like that. Like, I mean, I was the parent who, you know, she walks in from cross country, and she's like, I came in 21st, and we're all like, yeah, like, celebrate. Like, we are not the need to make A's.
- [49:21]
Carrie Newhoff
You're not the. Well, why not 20th? Why not first? Yeah. You're not that family.
- [49:25]
Jenny Allen
Great. Like, we. We could have cared less and about any of it. Like, we just wanted to delight over our kids and, like, be so proud of them and love them and be those parents, you know? And so I'm thinking, where did you get this? Like, And I think she watched me. I think how generational sin works is they watch us, like, we can do it all differently, and yet they see us strive and they see us need to hit the mark. And it's contagious. And if that is the reason someone is motivated to get free, I'm fine with it. Because we're not often motivated by ourselves being stuck. But we are being contagious to the people we lead. We are being contagious to our congregations. This is what happens. They don't stay neutral. We aren't neutral people. We don't wake up in a neutral world. This is war. And the war is for your mind and your beliefs. And it matters more than anything else if you get that right. Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these other things will be added to you. You know, out of the heart flows everything else. So we know that, like, we get this right, we get our heart, our thoughts, our mind, our fix, you know, energy in our minds, right? Our beliefs. Then out of it comes everything we're craving and wanting. But inside, it's like, we've really. And the problem is. And what I hope this book does is it wakes people up to. Maybe it is a lie, because right now, most people are accepting it as just true, in fact.
- [51:11]
Carrie Newhoff
So you know, my lie, you can't help but reflect on your own childhood. And I probably discovered this, I don't know, maybe 20 years ago in counseling or something like that, maybe a bit Longer, but it's that. And it's probably related to one of the three core lies. But it was, oh, if I'm going to be loved, I have to perform. And my parents didn't intend that. That's just, you know, message received, not necessarily message sent. And so, you know, a good report card was love. You know, mowing the lawn was love. All that. So, I mean, you want me to perform, I will perform. And that drove me to burnout 20 years ago, drove a wedge in my marriage, made me in the early days, a harder boss to work for because the standards were high. Oh, you hit it great. We just moved it up again. And, you know, it was really. It was performative, but it was also had a destructive side to it. It was all in the name of Jesus, and Jesus somehow used it. So I'm familiar, I think, with the struggle that you're describing. And yet you look at this, Jenny. And when I read that, I almost dropped. I was reading E version, but I would have dropped the book. When I read that, I'm like, really? Jenny struggles with this. Look at her. Look at her. Look at everything she's done. Look what she's written. Look how she preaches. Look what she's accomplished. And you think you're worthless. Like, come on. But sometimes those lies, they drive you either to become an alcoholic, a drug addict, or they drive you to be uber successful.
- [52:56]
Jenny Allen
Yes. Right.
- [52:58]
Carrie Newhoff
How did that drive the first few decades of your ministry?
- [53:02]
Jenny Allen
Oh, it's terrifying, right? I still feel terrified.
- [53:04]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, I know.
- [53:05]
Jenny Allen
Like, when. When God was being clear about, like, my next steps, I. I really had to take it to the people that love me and say, is there any way that I'm doing this out of my woundedness? Like, that's a question now that I have.
- [53:19]
Carrie Newhoff
It's great.
- [53:19]
Jenny Allen
And. And. And, you know, and we processed it together, but it wasn't. And I really was, like. I was clear. I was like, I really feel really happy with my life and myself right now. And I feel like, you know, this really is a love offering to God. What it's about, like, what I'm about to go do, but in a gift to get to do it. And I feel all of those things today, so that's good. Besides being prepared, embracing for the hard parts. But I would say when I look back, yeah, I just, you know, we desperately want to be loved and seen and known. That's the core of it all. Right. We're not. We don't actually want to be important. We don't actually want to be successful. What we want is acceptance. We want approval. We want our parents to be proud of us. I was interviewing with a girl yesterday about this, and she talked about her immediate. Where she went back to an age was she went back to 8 years old and her parents not coming to the gymnastics competitions unless she was getting an award or unless she was doing really well. And so she, you know, and I was like, well, she didn't. She didn't care about gymnastics. I mean, maybe a little bit part of her did, but. But she cared about her parents coming, you know, And I think that that's all of us, right? Like, we just. It's so good to think about when is the first time that you remember feeling this way, because it really gets to the core of what the enemy's used to drive you for so long to do this. For my friends that struggle with a lie, I'm helpless. Almost every time. Not every time, but almost every time they tell me that in some form there was neglect or abuse or suffering that they couldn't control. So they want control because they couldn't have control, but yet they don't feel like they will ever have it. And so my friends, that their core lie is I am lovable. There was rejection, betrayal, hurt from a young age. At some point, they felt it. And they've worked their whole life just to make sure people like them. And so they're funny or whatever they can do. I mean, honestly, like the way you just told your story, I would say, Carrie, it might be. Even though it sounds similar to mine, it really might be more lovable because that's the word you used over and over again, was the motivation and the reason you were doing that. So I think, you know, for each of us, we can just go back. We actually made a really helpful quiz on my website that y' all can have a link to. It's free, just to kind of help people. Because I do think sometimes we don't know, because you gotta realize the reason we don't know and the reason it's hard to land is because it's just the way we think. Yes, that's right. We think everybody else thinks the same way as us. And so, you know, nobody's questioned it, nobody's challenged it. It's just sat there unchallenged, living in us for a long, long time. So it's really hard to kind of land it. And so, you know, when you do, though, what you can do is go, man. Like, even just the practice of me asking the question, like, Am I doing this out of striving? Am I trying to make God say well done to me? Am I trying to get my dad's approval? Like, is this what I'm going for? Or is this really from God? And I'm called to it. What it looked like for me for so long was just really, I could never have joy in my work because even if I hit the mark, it didn't feel good enough. That's what's so sad for me and what I hope for people. Why I think it's so important we find this is because not only is it stopping people from living out what God's called them to do, but in many cases, they will do what they're supposed to do, but they never enjoy it and they just feel like they can't. Yeah, they can't ever celebrate.
- [57:32]
Carrie Newhoff
No. One of my current theories, and I think I want to write a book on this in the next few years. But unexamined motives, right? If you look at that unarticulated lie, it just drove you. And sort of my working thesis is unexamined motives will drive you until they destroy you. Unless. Because you've seen that, right? Some people who just, it's never enough. And you can see that in cosmetic surgery where they don't even look human anymore. You can see that in the way people use money. You can see that in platform building, honestly, in the church, where it's like, what are you after? Like, what do you need to make you feel better? Is 41,000 likes not enough? What do you need? And when you think about that moment with your girlfriend where you. The dam broke and you realized the lie, you said prior to that, it was just never enough. Right. You could never enjoy it. And the line kept moving. How's it different now?
- [58:37]
Jenny Allen
You know, now today I am having way more fun. I mean, I just feel delight. I feel the delight of God in my life. I feel we're used to. Let me just do a really short. When I started if gathering versus when I started gather, so 10 years later, I started if gathering, and I spun out afterwards wanting to hear God say, like, well done. That was what I was craving. I was like, did I do it right? Did I do I do what you wanted me to do? And then it grows and it becomes more. And I'm like, God, am I. Is my heart pure enough? Am I like, it was just this constant, like, I. Am I right? Yeah. And like now I'm kind of like, well, that was fun. Like, I can't believe that I Bet. I bet you love that. Like, there's a whole new relationship with God where it's not even about me. Right. It's more like I. I just feel free. I feel like I am going to screw up and I am going to make mistakes and I could do things better than I do them. And. And he could have picked someone else that was probably better at my job. Like, all that's true. Like, I can. I can kind of be like, yeah, that's, that's, that's factual. Like, yeah, yeah isn't the answer. Isn't man like finally realizing you do matter? The answer is it doesn't even matter because we live in a whole other kingdom. And. Yeah, and it's so much more free there. And I love that kingdom. And that's really what I frame the book as rather than just lie, truth, lie, truth, which is what I think people would expect. And what. And it's super important. And you've got to know the truth at least. You can't. You have to begin with the truth. But it's so much more than that. We're talking about a lifetime of a song that has been written for you and sung over you to cause you to be in bondage. A lifetime of it. Right. Potentially. We're talking about core deep beliefs. Wow, do those change? A Bible verse, you know, it wasn't working for me. And what, what shifted though, was shifting kingdoms. And just every day I wake up and I'm like, which kingdom am I going to live in? The one where I do. Because, by the way, in the worldly kingdom where the prince of the world is a slave master. Yeah, you need to measure up and yeah, you need to do things to be loved, Carry. Like, that's true. That's not. That's not even a lie. That's actually true in this kingdom, but in the other kingdom that you get to mess up, you get to make mistakes, you get to learn, you get to have fun obeying God, because he's not a slave master. He invites us. He's like, you want to do this with me? Let's do it. You know? And so I think that whole paradigm shift, it was. So I say it is a truth in the Bible. I say. I say, quoting John, that the truth will set you free. And it is true. But the truth is bigger than a verse in the moment. The truth is heaven coming. The truth is we get to live under a king who adores us and dances with us and invites us into his work and stays with us while we're doing it and actually makes us look way better than we are. And then he looks so good because everybody knows I couldn't have done that. And it's just this different story that's, like, beautiful and fun and exciting. And I want to be in there where the oxygen is not striving, where the oxygen is grace and the oxygen is peace. And. And the. The things you trade and. And. And are The. The way you. You do work there is. Is friendship and relationship and intimacy, you know, And I just. The more I live there, the more I enjoy it all and even the hard parts. And I think that's what was the hardest part of walking through it this summer. It wasn't that life was hard. I knew that already. Right. I'm old. I knew that already. It was that he wasn't there. And I thought he'd left. And so now today, my freedom comes from just being with him. Whatever we're doing, whether it's important or not important. Because who am I to even judge? I wonder if we'll get to heaven, and all the things we thought were important were actually just to get our hearts closer to him. And I won't be surprised to lick. Because he would do something like that. So it's just a whole other way of living and thinking.
- [63:11]
Carrie Newhoff
Did. Identifying the lie and then finding another king, like stepping into the other kingdom. You found it a long time ago, but really embracing it and seeing a change. How did that impact your marriage?
- [63:29]
Jenny Allen
Oh, I mean, my sweet husband. A little perspective on us. So we started our marriage really hard. We had five years, I believe, of counseling in the first 10 years of our marriage. And it was. Or several years. I don't know if it was all the way to five, but a lot of years. And it changed us. And we really healed from a lot of our parts, and we really knit our little souls together as we would go forward. And so when I think about our marriage, he's my biggest advocate and believes in me so much. I've dedicated a book to him before, but I had to dedicate this one to him because he does this. He did this for me. Carrie. In the last 30 minutes before we got on the phone, I got a hard phone call. And he, like, re. He was like, okay. He reinterpreted it into the narrative we believe. It's like, he will bring me back to the new kingdom and to God's kingdom over and over again. Because I'll just. I'll go. Okay. I spent an entire day living in the kingdom of this world. And some of times it's the kingdom of Christian publishing with the word Christ in there somewhere. Right? And it's like, I lived in the kingdom of the world and the pressures of this world. I need you just to take me on a walk and, like, what are we living for? How do we do this? Why does this not matter? And then he'll. He'll do it for me. But that's. That's important for all of us. Even if you're listening and you're single, like, that needs to be our regular way of going through life, that we have the people that go, oh, no, Remember, we don't live for that. We're not. We don't have to measure up for our worth, Jenny. So. So when you. When you remember it, you go, oh, okay, I still have a job I have to do and things I've got to deliver on, but I can't control the outcomes of all that. And. And I'm okay if I fail. Right? So he helps me remember. I can't say that it's changed our marriage because he's been so steady, and he kind of lives that way. His identity is not.
- [65:34]
Carrie Newhoff
That's a great place to be in.
- [65:36]
Jenny Allen
And so he really is at peace with himself. And it's beautiful. He's contagious to me in that way. It's good.
- [65:44]
Carrie Newhoff
So people listening right now, there's some people who are like, oh, I identified with one of the three lies. I can see this at work in my life, and it might be a moment for them. Like it was for me. Like it was for you. Of discovery. So when you discover that, what advice do you have for leaders listening who are just going, oh, I wonder if that's what's driving my behavior. What would you suggest their next step or two would be?
- [66:12]
Jenny Allen
Start asking people. So I will often open a conversation. I will often open a conversation with this line. I sometimes believe the lie that I have to. I did this last night in our small group that I have to measure up to be worth something. How have you seen that coming into the way you've been interacting with me? So I'll have a day at work where I'm short with people where. And I'll have to kind of just own it and say, you know what? I. Today I was striving like, I am sorry. You experienced a part of me that I am working on, and I wish it weren't so, but that was what you got today. And you know what's so funny is the second I apologize. So it's the end of the day, and I've ticked off somebody at work and I've stayed on them and I've pulled them into. Into my striving. At the end of the day when I apologize like that, somebody will say, like, somebody just said this last week, jenny, I want to kill you. And then I want to hug you. But that's true, like when we just own it and go, you know, this is. I wonder if. If this is affecting me. It helps everyone around us, right? It doesn't just help us, it sets us free. Because it's like, oh, yeah, I did that all day. I cared about this world and I. I tried to make you love me. I tried to control it, right? The helpless people try to control. The unlovable people try to make you like them. The achieving people or the worthless people try to achieve. So it's like whatever it is, like, we just have to kind of name it and, and say it to the people that love us and. And not live out of it, right? It just. It's empty. It's so empty. And. And that's the part that's so sad, is he'll make you the enemy, will make you chase things all your life. And the gift is if you can lose it all or realize somehow in drastic fashion that, oh, there wasn't life in it, right? It's why the people in Hollywood are. They get to the end of themselves because they get everything. They get the fame, they get the numbers, they get the money, they get the how they get it all. And then they're like, huh, dang it,
- [68:29]
Carrie Newhoff
you know, the mercy of God, this isn't it, right?
- [68:32]
Jenny Allen
It's the mercy of God to get everything that you think would make you happy and it not to make you happy. And it's the mercy of God to lose it all and to see that you didn't need it. And so either way, but in the middle, most of us are in the middle. It's not making you happy. You already know it. So just to go, I get to stop. It really is a different way of your brain working. So you have to build new pathways. These are repetitive thoughts that have been with you so long that interrupting them is not enough. I wrote a book called get out of your head, and the principle, the foundational principle, was the same. In fact, these three lies were mentioned very briefly in there. But the reason I knew after I finished get out of your head, I would write this book. I've known since that book I would write it is because different than get out of your head, which is interrupt the thought, change your gratitude. It gives all these ways to interrupt thoughts. Thoughts. I was like, but some of them have been there so long it doesn't work. And so that's what this book talks to, is the core things that have been with you so long that just interrupting the thought isn't enough.
- [69:41]
Carrie Newhoff
One of the things that's really helped me, and I just love your comment or observation or something that's really helped you in the journey. But through a lot of therapy, a lot of prayer, a lot of self reflection, you know, two of the ways that my I'm never done, it's never enough performance equals love. Would show up, would show up in preaching sometimes, and that's another story for another day. But it would show up in oh, if I can, because I have OCD tendencies. If I could just mow the lawn one more time or my car can never be clean enough, I'll just go wash it again. And then, you know, through counseling, prayer, and also my amazing wife, who, you know, Tony in particular, helped me see that that was getting in the way of relationships. Relationships with her, with my kids, with people close to me. I'm not gonna go tonight. I'm gonna detail the car, right? And it sounds so stupid, but I got to the point where I could look at myself almost like a third party going, oh, that's something crazy Carrie would do. Crazy Carrie would cut the grass one more time when it only grew like a quarter of a millimeter yesterday. It doesn't really need to be done. And that's given me distance to kind of go, oh, Crazy Carry would drive his team enough to the point where they all want to quit or they can't possibly keep up or mow the lawn one more time or clean an already mint conditioned car.
- [71:02]
Jenny Allen
Let me give you a new phrase. Let me give you a new phrase.
- [71:05]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah, give me a new phrase.
- [71:06]
Jenny Allen
What age do you remember feeling it for the first time?
- [71:11]
Carrie Newhoff
Feeling that, like feeling that I have to do.
- [71:15]
Jenny Allen
I have to hit the mark, you
- [71:17]
Carrie Newhoff
know, I don't have a galvanizing moment where I was in a parent's lap or anything like that. But I would probably say 7 or 8. Seems to resonate for some reason.
- [71:26]
Jenny Allen
Do you think there's something at 7 or 8 that would have made you feel that way?
- [71:31]
Carrie Newhoff
Doing stuff around the house and getting praised? Like, okay, if it was. My mom was big into dusting the furniture, so that was something the kids did.
- [71:39]
Jenny Allen
Okay, so let's call next time instead of crazy because it's not crazy. It actually, I'm really interrupting you on purpose. I'm not that weird.
- [71:49]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, sure, sure, sure.
- [71:50]
Jenny Allen
I'm actually interrupting you on purpose because I want you to see that it's not crazy. It makes perfect sense for the season it was in.
- [71:59]
Carrie Newhoff
It made a lot of sense.
- [72:01]
Jenny Allen
It makes perfect sense today, Carrie. Cause you get praised. I just want to say that little. Let's call it instead, let's call it seven year old Carrie. Okay? And let's say seven year old Carrie freaking loved that feeling. Of course you did. Like that makes perfect sense that you would do something and get rewarded and praised and that your 7 year old heart would feel happy and you would want to do it again. And probably, I mean, I won't completely put you on the spot unless you want me to, but there's also probably a 7 year old Carrie that didn't get something that he deeply needed and that. So it's like, okay, if there's a part of you that doesn't, that has hurt or rejection at 7 and then you find the way to get praised, it is not the crazy part of you at all. It's the part that makes the most sense because everything in your world has told you that and from the time you were seven and probably before. So I just want to say that I interrupt you because it makes me emotional because I'm like, I actually think that that part of you makes perfect sense and isn't crazy at all and is still doing everything you can to not feel the negative and to feel the positive. And so are all of us. And so are all of us. And so I think it's important like that you feel and that every person listening feels a lot of grace that this was indoctrination. Like this wasn't sin. This wasn't. Not that it didn't turn into it at some point, but it wasn't sin. You're not a bad person because performing feels good and the unknowns of relationships feel hard. It's like that's just, you're not crazy. It's just, this is life. And I think we are blessed to be people who can have the margin and the time to go look under the hood and go, maybe I don't have to do it, you know, like, maybe I could, I could still, you know, if, if you were still sick in the hospital, like have value, you know, like, you know when you're not doing it. Because one day that will be all of us, right? And, and I think that's ultimately what we're going for is like, we don't want to be the people that live out of our, our 7 year old, 12 year old broken parts. Right? We want to be people that, that live out of freedom and joy and peace
- [74:52]
Carrie Newhoff
and you know, I mean, when, when a behavior stops serving you, it has a destructive side as well as a healthy side. And so it's good to look at that now and go, oh yeah, that's not going to make me. It's kind of like that rich and famous thing you talked about. Like, oh yeah, another thousand dollars in the bank isn't going to make me feel any better or million if you're rich. I feel the way I feel and you know, shorter grass, a cleaner car, whatever, is not. It's going to make me feel this good, but the relationships are going to make me feel that good. And I need to prioritize. Jenny, I really do love your book and I think I shot you a text. I just loved reading it. It was a lot of fun. Is there another key concept or a question that I haven't asked you that you want to touch on before we wrap up today?
- [75:42]
Jenny Allen
Yeah, I mean, I would just say, let me just keep going on what I just said of Grace, that we are people who, the ones that usually pick up self help books and those that listen to your podcast. Carrie, we are people striving to be better. Right. And that's okay. But let me just put underneath all of it that God deeply wants our freedom. And I just think, gosh, if there was a lie that I was believing that I didn't even know I had, wouldn't I want to know it? Wouldn't I want to know that there's something underneath driving me that's hurting my marriage, that's hurting the people that work for me. You know, I would want to know what it. And so my hope is that as people work through this and they see what it is, not that they would feel ashamed, that they would feel angry. Right? That they would feel like, uh, no more. Because that's how I feel. That's how I felt when my daughter said what she said. I just felt angry. Um, so I do think we should feel angry, but I do not think we should feel shame. Like, how could I believe this? Or how could this shape my whole life? It's like, no, there's a good, the enemy's good. And so we look for his scheme in our life, the way he has whispered lies to us our whole lives. And we name it, we say it out Loud to someone. And we begin to find a new way to live. And it's so fun. Because lies are invitations. They're invitations.
- [77:28]
Carrie Newhoff
That's a good way to think about it.
- [77:29]
Jenny Allen
They're invitations to the other kingdom because.
- [77:33]
Carrie Newhoff
To the truth.
- [77:34]
Jenny Allen
Yeah. Because when I feel like I can't measure up, when I feel unlovable, when I feel helpless and out of control, those are gifts for me to go. I don't want to live here anymore. I've been living here. You kind of notice. You're like, I've been living here. I want to go home. I want to go back to Narnia where, you know, Aslan is and do what he's called me to do and not worry about this and the hustle and all this. So it's an imitation. And I hope that's what people feel.
- [78:04]
Carrie Newhoff
Jenny, I'm really grateful for you. I'm really grateful that you are so honest that you are transparent about what you're going through. I gotta ask you, how's Zach? Is he doing okay right now?
- [78:16]
Jenny Allen
Oh, he's doing great.
- [78:17]
Carrie Newhoff
Good.
- [78:17]
Jenny Allen
Yeah. An all clear. After three months of scary, scary, scary, he got an all clear. So we're great. We're enjoying our freedom again, travel and all that.
- [78:28]
Carrie Newhoff
But as my counselor, Dr. C, says, the bad times are coming, so get ready and have enough margin. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. That was my little trial and it's over now and we're just going to smooth sailing ahead. And again, you know, the conversation we're having too, we are very privileged. We talked about the global church. I mean, you look at the problems people in the global church are facing compared to what I'm facing or you're facing. And not to rank them, but people do have a lot of struggles and I think you helped some of that 24%. Who's maybe still thinking about cashing it in? Maybe.
- [79:02]
Jenny Allen
Go.
- [79:02]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay, I'm going to have another look at this. I'm going to look under the hood and see if there's some other drivers so highly recommend the book. It's called the lie you don't know, you believe. It's out everywhere. Jenny, if people want to track with the latest with you, where's the easiest place to keep up?
- [79:16]
Jenny Allen
Online? Sure. Jennialen.com Everything's there. If gathering our next gather 27. We'd love. Yeah, we'd love for everybody that listens to you to be a part of it.
- [79:27]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, well, I'm definitely part of that tribe and looking forward to seeing you again in person soon. Thank you so much for your openness, your wisdom and your encouragement today.
- [79:43]
Jenny Allen
Thanks, Carrie.
- [79:45]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, I hope that kind of vulnerability really helps you in your walk. You know, we're really all walking the same road and I love it when guests are as transparent as Jenny. We mentioned a couple of things in the show notes and if you want more information, including everything we talked about Jenny's book, the other books, you can get them in the Art of Leadership Academy. So you can sign up for free. Join over 17,000 leaders who have done that. You can go to theartofleadershipacademy.com where you can register for free today. You'll find the show notes inside there, as well as some really riveting conversation around all of our episodes. And you can also just click the link in the description of this episode. So hopefully you enjoyed that and if you would leave a rating and review, that makes a big difference. The algorithm them kind of takes notes. We're already, you know, one of the bigger podcasts, but as you share it with more, we can do a better job. I sat down with Carl Lentz in Tulsa, Oklahoma and we have that conversation with you next time on the podcast. I'm very excited to bring that to you. Carl and I had a great conversation. Also coming up, we're going to talk about digital church. We have Arthur Brooks. Man, I love Arthur Brooks. Near A and a whole lot more. Thank you so much for listening. I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.