CNLP 793 | Carl Lentz On Preaching While Having Sex Outside Marriage, How the Pressure of Church Growth Got To Him, And Warning Signs for Other Church Leaders

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast

Episode CNLP 793 | Carl Lentz On Preaching While Having Sex Outside Marriage, The Pressure of Church Growth, and Warning Signs for Church Leaders

Release Date: March 24, 2026
Host: Carey Nieuwhof
Guest: Carl Lentz

---

Episode Overview

This deeply candid, two-hour conversation features Carl Lentz, former pastor of Hillsong New York City, as he reflects on his journey: his early call to ministry, the seeds that led to his celebrated rise and public downfall, the pain and process of personal and spiritual restoration, and his advice to leaders navigating pressures and pitfalls in ministry. The discussion is raw and honest, covering Lentz’s failures, especially his sexual infidelity, the toll of rapid growth and celebrity culture, and practical lessons learned on honesty, character, and leadership. The tone remains vulnerable, empathetic, and focused on growth and hope without excusing or minimizing harm done.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Carl’s Early Life & Call to Ministry

• Background & Family: Raised in a loving home with parents who modeled faith (03:00–03:40).
• First Exposure: As a child, watched his dad minister in juvenile centers—assumed this was normal Christian life.
• Journey to Faith: Went his own way in high school and college, a pivotal moment at 19 led to a personal encounter with Jesus (03:18–04:00).
• Ministry Start: Started inviting friends to church, seeing a spark in helping those far from faith, leading to theological studies and ultimately joining Hillsong (04:53–05:19).

2. Seeds of Personal Undoing & Omitting the Truth

• Habits of Omission: The “truth omission” began as subtle as “I’m fine” when asked about his state—became a highway for hiding deeper issues (13:33–14:25).

  “Not telling 100% of the truth … that seed of acclimating to that kind of answer becomes really handy in pastoral circles.” – Carl Lentz [14:04]

• Accountability Limits: Surrounded by people willing to help, but honesty was the missing component; you can only speak truth to what you know (16:14–17:09).

  “I was always open. I just wasn’t honest.” – Carl Lentz [16:45]

3. Rapid Church Growth: Blessing and Burden

• Rocket Ride: Hillsong NYC exploded—over 37 venues, lines around the block (34:34, 34:44).
• The Cost: Preaching multiple services grew exhausting. Winning felt hollow because of personal secrets (35:20–37:11).

  “It was too much. I know that now.” – Carl Lentz [37:11]

• Lack of Margin & Grieving Loss: Did not have the emotional or spiritual margin to process grief and pain, especially after losing a close friend early in NYC years (21:03–22:17).

4. The Double Life: Leading While Failing

• Sexual Brokenness: Tracing roots to childhood sexual abuse, early exposure to porn, and shame—never truly healed, leading to a volcano of pain waiting to erupt (43:26–48:27).

  “When people like me share reasons, they are not excuses. There’s no excuse for what I did. Zero.” – Carl Lentz [43:49]

• Preaching In the Midst of Sin:

  “How could you preach and do that? … It’s the same way any of us live with brokenness ... I compartmentalized so well for my gain that when it came time to do it for my demise, it was easy.” – Carl Lentz [55:27]

5. Celebrity Culture and Criticisms

• Media Scrutiny & Pressure: Lentz addresses criticism about “celebrity culture,” denying it defined the church (56:16–60:42).

  “There wasn’t a celebrity culture. There just wasn’t. … We just did the same thing we always did. People deserve a chance to be led, loved, accepted.” – Carl Lentz [56:25, 58:35]

• Handling Critics:

  “Thank you. Their presence sometimes aligns mine … I always check to see if they’re right first.” – Carl Lentz [63:06]

6. The Crash: Rehab, Restoration, and Radical Honesty

• Hitting Bottom: After exposure, contemplated suicide, entered therapy and rehab (74:02–76:45).

  “I was so, so, so distraught. … Maybe there’s some hope for me.” – Carl Lentz [74:38]

• Uncovering Addiction: Discovered dependency on prescription drugs (Adderall) as part of the problem (79:10–81:52).
• Rebuilding Marriage:
  • Grace of God as foundation.
  • Instead of couples’ counseling, each did deep individual work, then came together as new people (86:24–88:39).

7. Leadership, Pace, and Organizational Lessons

• Call to Slow Down: Would go far slower, focus more on health than size if leading again (67:03–70:28).

  “The culture of speed and power and growth, I would shift all that now.” – Carl Lentz [70:28]

• Unsustainable Growth: Believes the pace and pressure would “kill anybody” (72:12–73:26).

8. Accountability, Restoration, and Requalification

• Qualifications for Leadership: Argues the Bible is clear on disqualification, but requalification is about communal discernment, wisdom—not arbitrary bans (104:00–106:39).

9. Life after Fallout: Friendships and Public Perception

• Friendships Change: Bosses aren’t true peers; collapse of church also meant loss of deep friendships (121:23–123:49).
• Why Some Can't Listen Anymore: Empathizes with those hurt who can no longer listen to his or other fallen pastors' teaching (123:49–127:18).

10. Final Lessons & Hope for Leaders

• Radical Honesty: Calls for relentless truth-telling as the only viable option for healthy leadership and life (117:31–119:45).

  “Of all the lies we tell, the lies we tell ourselves are the most deadly.” – Carey Nieuwhof [118:50]

• Kindness Over Strength:

  “I used to believe being a strong leader was it. I no longer believe that. I believe being a kind leader is the most explosive attribute any church could ever have.” – Carl Lentz [137:50]

• Restoration is Lifelong: Emphasizes restoration as a lifelong journey—"sanctification"—not a moment or destination (136:47–137:23).

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Carl on truth omission as a “seed”:
  “That seed of acclimating to that kind of answer became really handy in pastoral circles…” [13:53]

• On the pressure of rapid growth:
  “I vividly remember Irving Plaza, service number seven. I was absolutely exhausted … There’s about 700 people outside who couldn’t get into the last one … of course I’m gonna do it. Now I wouldn’t.” [34:47–35:20]

• On violating the pastoral call:
  “It’s a holy thing to be a pastor. And I knew that, and I love that. … So to violate that in private and not handle it correctly in any way is horrible for my soul. And it’s something I will never let go of …” [51:13–52:17]

• On church leadership pace:
  “I would go so slow. … But you tell me what you’re going to do when your church grows by a thousand in a day … but the culture of speed and power and growth, I would shift all that now.” [67:08, 70:28]

• On honesty with self and others:
  “Of all the lies we tell, the lies we tell ourselves are the most deadly.” – Carey Nieuwhof [118:50]
  “That’s the person I lied to the most. … There is no other way but radical honesty.” – Carl Lentz [118:57–119:42]

• Advice for leaders under pressure:
  “It’s not going to get easier. So if you’re hurting now, you’ll die in a couple months. … If there’s an area you’re like, ‘Man, I just got to get through this season’—never happens. … Figure it out now.” [114:12–114:59]

• On ministry restoration:
  “To pretend that a minister who’s fallen cannot be restored to ministry is wild to me. The question is not can they. The question is is it wise?” [104:02–104:53]

• On kindness:
  “I believe being a kind leader is the most explosive attribute any church could ever have … Kindness will get you a life you’re proud of.” [137:50–139:03]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Carl’s Early Years, Call: 02:15–05:21
• Seeds of Truth Omission: 13:33–17:17
• NYC Church Launch & Growth: 19:17–21:03, 34:34–37:11
• Loss, Grief, Unprocessed Pain: 22:03–24:18
• Public Pressure, Celebrity, Criticism: 29:40–34:28, 56:08–61:05
• Moral Failure, Double Life, Breakdown: 43:26–54:45
• Therapy, Rehab, Restoration: 73:50–88:39
• Friendships, Team, and Trust: 121:23–127:49
• Final Reflections & Lessons: 136:47–142:25

---

Closing Thoughts

This conversation pulls back the curtain on the vulnerabilities and dangers that can develop beneath the spotlight of rapid ministry growth, especially when paired with personal wounds left unhealed and truth left untold. Carl Lentz offers no excuses for his actions but paints a vivid, sobering picture of the interior journey that led to his fall—and the slow, lifelong path of restoration.

Ultimately, both host and guest point to the necessity of radical honesty, the value of kindness, the long journey of restoration, and deep compassion for others—including leaders—struggling with brokenness. Leaders are urged to slow down, tend to their souls, and avoid the self-deceptions that precede collapse—for the sake of themselves, their teams, their families, and those they serve.

---

For a richer experience and additional commentary, find show notes and transcript at careynieuwhof.com.

Transcript

[Carrie Newhoff]

The Art of Leadership Network, man.

[Carl Lentz]

And I have so much reverence for it. And it's fair for a critic to go, really? Did you cool. You can judge me all you want. I'm telling you that I counted it a high privilege to lead people in that platform. Hi, Reverend. So to violate that in private and not handle it correctly in any way was horrible for my soul.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, man. I'm so glad you've joined us. And we're in for a conversation today. I sit down for a couple of hours with Carl Lentz, and we talk about it. We talk about everything, absolutely everything. And I have one request today, and that is that you listen to the entire conversation before you drop a comment. Carl has talked a lot about the journey to Hillsong, his fall, his moral failure, the journey back over the last few years through his podcast Lights, on many other podcasts, including Mel Robbins and others. And then we just sat down and I kept thinking the conversation was over. And it kept going. And we've got kind of a false ending that. And then we talked some more. And I want you to hear that. So here's my unedited conversation with Carl Lentz. And please give it a full listen before you make up your mind. Carl, I'm so glad to sit down with you. Welcome.

[Carl Lentz]

It's an absolute privilege. I'm grateful for all you do and who you are. I've been listening to you for a long time, all the way back when in New York. And it's just. It's really cool to meet you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

That, you know, that blows me away. As a guy who works out of his basement, you find these things out years later.

[Carl Lentz]

I always found you to be so reasonable and sound and smart in the angles you bring. I just don't have. So I just. I've loved it. And so we connected. It's an honor to do it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Really delighted to be with you. And I want to go way back. When did you first feel a call to ministry? Like, tell us a little bit about your childhood.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, because most of our. Most of our stuff starts as kids, everybody wants to pick up the story, I think in New York. Yeah, I'd like to go back a bit.

[Carl Lentz]

My dad is my hero. And to this day, and one of my first core memories is him taking me to a juvenile detention center, and I think it was in Chesapeake, Virginia. And he would bring his guitar and he would preach prisoners, and I would sit and watch. And it's interesting that that's like a core Template memory. Because that's just what I thought every Christian did. And later look back like, oh, people don't do that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Was he a pastor?

[Carl Lentz]

My dad was, yeah. For. For a time in. In Williamsburg, Virginia. And so growing up just had a really beautiful family challenges, like every family. But my mom and dad loved us, loved Jesus, taught us how to put our faith in Jesus above people, above church, all that. So we had this really beautiful foundation. And I did my own thing in high school, did my own thing in college, and collided with Jesus. At 19 years old in Virginia Beach, Virginia, a pastor named Steve Kelly.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, yeah, I know Steve.

[Carl Lentz]

Just my life began to change from that day. And I don't. When people say, did you ever feel a call? I think I hold that differently in that I've always just followed where I feel like God's opened doors and I was sitting there. So I gotten saved. And I just had the immediate logic of if. If I can't drink and have fun, nobody will. Everyone's coming to church. And I'm not sure it was the best motivation, but, man, did it work. And I just started to, you know, invite people. And, you know, over time, at Wave Church in Virginia Beach, I just. I just could see that maybe, maybe there's something to me explaining this because it seems like people understand it. I'm sitting in church, I got about two rows of friends with me, and I remember thinking, I, I love Steve and I love this church, but they're going to need somebody to corral this type of person. I wonder who God will use. And I thought, maybe, maybe that's what I should do. Maybe I should be the answer to some of these questions I have. And from that day, I just started to lean into that and then wanted to go to Bible college. So I went to church on the way in Van Nuys, California, Jack Hayford's Theological Seminary at the time, and left there to go to Hillsong College in Australia. There it was just a real natural flow of, I love this church, love Brian and Bobby. I love the message. It makes sense to me and reaching people and let me just see where this goes. And two years leads to three, and then I work with Brian, become an intern and go back to Virginia Beach. And Steve Kelly said, I want you to work here. And Laura and I went back and we were intern youth pastors for our ministry start, you know, one baby, no clue about what was ahead, and just loved being a part of this. Dang. And we took over a young adult ministry and it grew. And God blessed It. And there came a day where, you know, I met with Joel Houston in New York. He was doing something there and he said, my dad wants to do something in New York. And I think we should do it. I'm like, that's a ridiculous idea.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And you were in Virginia at the time?

[Carl Lentz]

I was in Virginia and came back, talked to Laura and yeah, in a couple, you know, not too long after that, we left Virginia beach for New York City and we thought, this is ridiculous, impossible. And that's our M.O. because if it's easy, if it makes sense, probably wouldn't. Wouldn't be what's for us. But we were like, this could be special, so why not? And why. I love pointing to what you do. I remember all the research at the time. I remember what everybody said about church planting in New York. I remember going, well, that's not going to be our story. And it was not our story.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And no, it wasn't your stuff.

[Carl Lentz]

So, yeah, that's kind of. I think that the call to me was just to follow passionately. It wasn't to ministry. It was just to give it, give it all, give everything, and let God start changing your life. And. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So I want to back up on something you dropped. You had two rows of friends at Wave Church. And did you say something about carousing? Like, if someone's going to be drinking, someone's going to be carousing.

[Carl Lentz]

Everybody becomes a legalism expert after two months of salvation. It's like, thank God I came on the team because no one's getting it done. So let me just show everybody what time it is. I was definitely that guy.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So what was your lifestyle then?

[Carl Lentz]

So I played basketball in college, and so basketball was my life. Everything had to do with that culture. And so I love teams, I loved people. I just didn't have that anchor that Jesus is. And I just found myself in college going, I was at a party and. And then there were some things that were about to transpire. And I remember thinking, if I participate in this, I'll be lost forever. And I'm lost. And I'm not following Jesus, but I'm not that lost.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Wow.

[Carl Lentz]

And it began this, like, series.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So this is a pre conversion.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah. And that's what led me to be. I think I went home for a visit to see my parents. And that's what kind of opened my heart to go, I don't want to keep living the way I'm living. And what would happen if I really tried this for real? Because I had like a. That Classic Christian, young Christian relationship of like, I don't know if I ever made my own choices in that. It's just in front of me. It's like if I grew up in a Muslim household. Yeah. I probably would have, you know, leaned this way. You know, it was, it was, it was inherited to a great degree. Still have my own connection, but yeah, that was, that was for me a moment of real clarity. My lifestyle to your question, my lifestyle was very typical of maybe what a 1999 young college mayor would be living. And it was just not. It wasn't for the glory of God. Let's just say that we'll keep it pg. Yep.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Fair enough. And were you inviting friends to church at the time in college, before pre conversion post?

[Carl Lentz]

No. No, no, no, no. No interest? No, no, because.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay, that's interesting because lifestyle is something that caught up with you in New York, right?

[Carl Lentz]

Yes.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So where were the seeds of that? That's what I'm trying to get.

[Carl Lentz]

What do you mean, lifestyle?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, like Alcoh stuff.

[Carl Lentz]

Well, yeah, a lot of that's not true. There wasn't. There wasn't. And that's a, that's a funny, it's a funny segue because it wasn't my lifestyle. I don't think that was something that, you know, that killed or hurt me. I think it was just me. I think it was my habits and my core values and the way that I looked at life and the way I processed information. My lifestyle really didn't change. Really. Always been in the mix with people who I don't align with. I've always felt compelled to be in rooms that people don't agree with what I agree with. And it's just I've always leaned towards people who are outside of the faith because I, that's, that's what I love about Jesus. Like I want to be a walking bridge.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

So I feel like, yeah, obviously there are areas that became muddled. But lifestyle wise, I still live the same life today. And it's one that is open to people of different walks of faith. I'm a different man, though. So the things that I have in my life now radically impact aspects of my lifestyle. But as a whole, that wasn't what tripped me up in New York at all. And I wasn't a big partier, wasn't a big drinker at all. In fact, didn't drink at all until about midway through in New York because Australian culture, as you know, is a little bit different. Hillsong church alcohol is a part of that. You Know, people love Jesus and they drink. I've got no beef with that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, you go to Europe, it's the same thing.

[Carl Lentz]

But, you know, Laura always grew up around a drinking culture of me. I was coming out of some really heavy religious thinking, and so I was just. I was the guy who didn't drink. I remember Brian one time told me, he's like, I'm glad you don't drink. You know, it switches it up for some of us. And then I started drinking lightly, but that was really not a big thing. Towards the end of my hardest season, it was a hallmark of complete disassociation, pain shielding, and it just aided and abated. But that wasn't like I never had. I don't drink now. I haven't had any alcohol in a very, very long time. Years and years. But that wasn't hard to give up. So it wasn't part of my. It was just a symptom of. It was at the scene of a lot of those accidents towards the end.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

So it was a real. A real thing. But partying and all that, that. That's not really. We didn't live that life.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So when the conversion happened, a lot changed.

[Carl Lentz]

Yes. Oh, yeah. When the conversion happened, my life was, you know, about church, and it was about, you know, learning how to do ministry and then reaching people. So. But that in. In Virginia beach, drinking, and that was not part of my life.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So you wanted to reach the people who are in that world.

[Carl Lentz]

Absolutely.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Brought two rows of them.

[Carl Lentz]

Yes. But you were different. Yeah, absolutely.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Interesting.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay. No, thanks for clarifying and clarify. We'll talk about that.

[Carl Lentz]

Like, this is.

[Carrie Newhoff]

This is your story. I've listened to dozens of episodes of your podcast, heard you on other people's podcast, and so I think people are familiar with chunks of the story, but this is a great opportunity to set the record straight and clarify.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, there are some things, Carrie, where I didn't. I just didn't feel like it was appropriate to qualify or to. To speak truth to some things, because what. What was true was enough. And I personally don't like it when people are justifying little parts of untruth. When you got the headline right, the headline was, I sinned and I lied, and I covered it up, and I tried to get through it in the worst way possible. That was true. But some of the other stuff I had to stomach and eat because I felt like the most respectful thing I can do is let these people lie, accuse, say what they want to say, because at the end of the day, if you don't want to be lied about, don't put yourself in a position to be lied about. Don't give people material. And so I for years, and this is a season where I am at times when there is an easy natural moment to go. Actually that's not true. I do feel very confident in my ability to do that now because it's not about justifying or making someone think something different about me. I don't care what they think. I really don't. So that used to be my motivation for wanting to qualify or be. Hey, by the way, those 19 stories 17 not true. Now it's like I don't care. But if it does come across my bow, I'm like matter of fact, no, that never happened. And now because I'm not here to justify or explain away something, but I will speak truth to something that's just not true just to help people understand better.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Carl, one of the things I'm really interested in in my own life and also I've had the privilege of interviewing like 800 leaders now and counting is seeds. Seeds that grow up to be things we want and things we don't want. Do you know what I mean? Like Bible reading is a pretty good seed to plant. You do that daily, it's gonna turn out. When you look back over your life pre New York, what were some of the signs or the seeds that you can now see were planted? Could be in childhood, could be in college, could be in the early days of ministry that would go on to become full grown weeds if you wanna use the metaphor.

[Carl Lentz]

That raging infernos of jungles of pain.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Jungles of pain.

[Carl Lentz]

The biggest wagon point to would be early days of truth omission. And I did know what I didn't know. But it would sound something as simple as like. Carl, you doing okay? Yeah, I'm doing. I'm doing great. Not, not untrue.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

Not the full truth. That seed of acclimating to that kind of answer became really handy in pastoral circles because that's what a lot of pastors do.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

And what that ends up being is a seed that creates a highway of major truth omission. You know there were some outright things I did that that were lies and then. But the majority of my destructive cycle was not lying in a typical way. It was the liable mission that was my number one.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Not telling the whole story or allowing

[Carl Lentz]

you to think something that's true that I know isn't and allowing that to ride.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What would example be when it was

[Carl Lentz]

small, beyond truth of mission? Is everything. Is everything okay inside? Are you thinking okay? Are your habits aligning to who you want to be? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. For the most part. It's like, if you ask a guy, like, how are you doing with this? Like, I'm doing good. I'm overcoming it. Or you are. What does that mean? Like, and you learn church speak, you learn pastor speak. And to me, that is a seed. I can point out and go. And I'm big on it with my kids. Like, we are. They call me, like, a semantical jerk because I'm like, so you went outside for two minutes or three? Hey, dad. Two. Two minutes. I'm like, trust me, it matters. Down the road, was it two or three? And now it's like a supreme value for me because I will never, ever repeat that life. I can't do it. It killed me. So that's a seed that I know now. It wasn't malicious. Honestly, Carrie, it wasn't like, I'm trying to lie. It's like, I don't know if I can trust you. I don't know if you can handle the answer. All the stuff we tell ourselves. So some of it was fair. But it became a very convenient way for me to present enough truth for you to get off, for you to feel comfortable. But I still leave in the truth I didn't give you is what's killing me. And that's often my. I challenge a lot of the Christian leaders I work with now about their old school accountability mantra, because you can lie to an accountability partner. Accountability is worthless if you're not honest. It's Christian performance. So I'm accountable. I'm accountable to my, my, my, my 5:00am you know, breakfast meeting. Are you cool? You show up, you're consistent. But accountability is worthless if I'm not honest. And a common misnomer when you see a guy like me is, oh, those guys, they got yes men around them. Nobody can tell them no. And I'm going, no, that's not true. I had amazing people around me. Amazing. My wife, very discerning, very sharp. Brian constantly available to. For me to. And we have our. I have my differences with some of the stuff that went on with he and I, but he wasn't unavailable. I had access to help. I had great friends. So the notion that nobody could tell me anything has never been true. I was always open. I just wasn't honest. So how can you speak truth to something that you don't know exists? So, Carl, can people speak truth to you? Yeah, for sure they can. The truth they know. But how are you going to speak truth to something that I'm hiding? So it was an unfair premise to and that's a real low hanging fruit criticism of people from far away. Like guys like that. What do you mean guys like me? What do you mean you know it's not true?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, often, often the loudest critics are the people who know you the least.

[Carl Lentz]

Always. Not often, Carrie. I would say always.

[Carrie Newhoff]

This episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Live. If you're leading a church and you know there's more in you and more ahead for your team, I want to personally invite you to something special. September 21st through 23rd, I'm hosting the Art of Leadership live in Nashville, Tennessee. Now don't think of this as a conference where you sit in a chair for eight hours, take notes and hope something sticks. This is super interactive, deeply practical, and intentionally designed to help you make real progress on the leadership challenges you and your team are facing right now. How do we do that? Well, we combine focused teaching, meaningful conversations with other leaders and built in space to think, process and actually apply what you're learning. So you don't just leave inspired, you leave with clarity and you leave with next steps. So one important note, the last chance to secure any type of early bird pricing and save on your ticket is almost gone at the end of April. The ticket prices are at their regular price. So if you've been thinking about applying, now is the time and we keep this event small. I want to interact with you. I want you to interact with other people. The leaders who gathered last year absolutely blew me away. The depth of the conversations, the honesty in the room, there were tears, prayer, the momentum left people in a place where they could really make progress on their ministry. And that's what makes this event so impactful. I can't wait to to do it again. And if you haven't been, make sure this year you join us. Visit theartofleadershiplive.com to secure the best pricing and secure your tickets before it's too late. Again, that's theartofleadershiplive.com I'd love to see you there. So when you go back like and you look at the seeds of the undoing.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Not telling 100% of the truth. Two minutes versus three minutes. That was part of it. When you think about the founding of Hillsong New York City, just timestamp it. What year was that that you and Joel went to?

[Carl Lentz]

Is that Laura is a time guru? 2010. 10.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay, so 2010, you go there. What state was your Life in in 2010?

[Carl Lentz]

Strong.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Strong.

[Carl Lentz]

And also. What's a good word for it? These are great questions. You have a future as a podcaster. Just so you know, I think, what was my life like then? It was the right heart, the right intent, and there were some habits that I had never formed, and I was getting around to them. And when your life increases, the things that are in flux, they get destroyed. So there's a lot of people crying out for God, for opportunity, for growth, and it's like, God probably loves you enough to not do that. And there were just some things I wasn't prepared for. And that's part of life.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. Some habits that weren't formed.

[Carl Lentz]

What habits? Well, a habit, number one of being honest with somebody else that's outside of my head. That's a huge. That is a habitual routine of my life now that I will. I will be married to forever. Back then, I didn't. I didn't think I needed it like that. We didn't have the therapy understanding we do now.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No, it's changed anyway.

[Carl Lentz]

Sixteen years, I didn't. I realize now that my life then there was so much fear. A ton of fear and a ton of. I didn't know. I wasn't prepared to have a giant platform either, in that, Like, I don't know what that's like. I don't know what it's like to have millions of people.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You didn't have a pro criticized wave?

[Carl Lentz]

No, no, not like that. I didn't know what it was like to have heavy criticism in mass. I didn't know what it was like to. What it was going to feel like to be misunderstood, and I didn't. So that starts to warp you. And so one of my first experiences, a pastor of, as I think about it now at Hillsong New York, was just feeling like, this is. This feels hard, like. And harsh like, what do you like? I didn't understand the. The criticism sometimes that churches like ours would get, and I would harvest that or hold it, and it would harvest rather than now, Obviously, we know, hey, this is hurtful. Let's pick it apart. Let's talk about what it is. Let's make sure we're not moving from that criticism. Picked that. I'm just. I'm taking it all in. Taking it all in, Taking it all in. I lost a friend early there. Someone beloved to me died of a heroin overdose. I never talked that through. I was preaching. I preached at his funeral. And Preached the next Sunday and just freaking went, that's not good. So I'm carrying shame, guilt, pain from this. And then you start to accumulate this stuff, and it doesn't go well if you have no process for it. I had no process for it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Shame, guilt, and pain. Where did that come from?

[Carl Lentz]

It was not accurate, but I felt shame that I lost my friend. That, you know, he was. He was newly saved. And he rolled with me. He rolled with me everywhere.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And there's one night you didn't do enough.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, I just. It just weighed on me. I needed someone. I needed to talk that through. And I just. Because I wanted to quit. Because I'm like, if I can't keep my best. One of my best friends alive, I don't know if I even want to do this. Like. And I've never been faced with death like that. I've never had somebody I love. One of my dear friends had to. Long story short, I was flying out to Seattle, preach for my friend Judah. He typically would come with me. I couldn't organize it in time. And that was the night he overdosed heroin and died. And I hadn't had the margin to organize it quick enough. And that ate at me for years. Cause he was. He just. I couldn't take him on the trip. And I know that's not on me now, but back then, I just felt so guilty. Yeah, I felt guilty. And it just put. And I had. I didn't know what grief was. Cause I'm not a griever. I'm a strong leader. Grieving.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Because this is what is so helpful, Carl, because I think anybody can relate to your story at this point. Anybody can. It's like, yeah, I felt like I should have been there. And it's not like you're snorting cocaine.

[Carl Lentz]

No.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, and then going up to

[Carl Lentz]

preach, never done cocaine.

[Carrie Newhoff]

We often think that it's this big thing that you've been hiding the whole time. But it starts, you know, One of my mentors, Terry Wardle, who's been on this podcast, told me something 25 years ago that might have saved my life. He just said, ministry is a series of ungrieved losses. And they just pile up, and you're not telling the truth, and you got nobody to talk to, and you're like, no, I got this. I got this. So it starts that way. You have the pressure of celebrity. When people ask me, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, this started pretty late for you in your 40s and 50s. I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I didn't have the character in my 30s and some days I barely have the character today. Yeah. To handle what God has brought my way. You know, you had the competency, you're charismatic, you know, good looking, you connect with celebrities and lost people. Where was your character at?

[Carl Lentz]

I think it was at a fragile place because I don't, I didn't even, I don't even hold the word character now like I did then.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay.

[Carl Lentz]

I think character for me used to mean intention. Who I really am inside. And like the character of a man is, is, is his intention. And like my character's solid and it's consistent because I know I'm trying to do the right thing now. I believe, you know, character is much deeper. It's evidence based, it's clear, it's habitual, it's intentioned, it's margin. Like your character is your backbone. And so I feel like my character in many ways was a beautiful process, you know, of becoming a man of character. But man, there were some gaps that you don't know till, you know.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Might be a dead question, but I just want to ask it anyway. Looking back 12, 13 years ago, who got to judge or speak into your character and then today, who gets to determine your character? And underneath the question, I'm increasingly convinced I am not a good judge of my own character. Well said. Yeah, but who was speaking into your character at the height of Hillsong New York?

[Carl Lentz]

My pastors, my best friends.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So you had pastors, you had best friends?

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah. Brian Houston has been my pastor for my whole adult life.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And what did those conversations look like?

[Carl Lentz]

Challenging. He would check me on some things, I would be open, I would listen. And he helped me grow. He really did. There were areas in my life that

[Carrie Newhoff]

he really helped me. So it wasn't absent, you were absolutely not.

[Carl Lentz]

No. But character runs deep. And again, what you don't bring out cannot be healed. Right. So if you don't, most of the time people are calling out stuff that's very clearly obvious to them. That's not the stuff that's going to change your life. It's the stuff that you bring to somebody. That's the stuff that God can really water and change. So, you know, you can do all the checks and balances. Like, Carl, watch this and what's this? And I had great friends who we would be very open with each other and challenge each other. But again, you're only challenging even if I see something in you. And I think it's this. If it's Easier for you to accept that's what it is. You can say it cool, but you know, it's not even what it is. So if someone's like, carl, you look really busy. Good call, bro. Thank you. Letting you think that I agree that I'm busy. It's not that I'm busy, it's that I'm dying. I don't know how to handle all this stuff. So what you see is busy. I either can reframe and let you know what it really is. I maybe a symptom is busy on. It really is. I'm lost. That has to be given.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How did you get lost?

[Carl Lentz]

I don't think I was lost. I was trying to say that that's.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No, no, go ahead, rephrase, reframe.

[Carl Lentz]

I think I was in a beautiful tornado of change. And even without all the stuff underneath the current for me and Laura, I was having some shift, shifting in passion and understanding. I got to a point leading that leading hillsong New York City, where I started to go. I don't know, man. I don't know if this is my future. I don't know if I even. I don't know if the model of church is what. It wasn't a shot at the church I was leading. I was like, we're leading something incredible and I love it. And I don't know if this is what the future is going to look like for the world. I don't know if this is what's going to reach people the best. But it felt like you were on a train that was impossible to stop. So I had this churning inside of me and I was talking with Laura and we had a couple check ins and at a big meeting with Brian one time where I was like, I don't, I don't know how I'm feeling. Like I don't know what I want to do, you know. And so you have that contention and at that age, you know, I'm turning, you know, my late 30s, 40s, that's when your brain starts shifting as well. So now I'm having all kinds of. It was just a perfect storm for a vulnerable character moment. And it was hard, but I feel like all that stuff plays. So I've got inner turmoil, inner pain that's not shared. And then I've got normal middle aged male stuff going on. And then I've got, you know, some other factors and I don't know what to do with all this stuff. So I'm not gonna do anything with it. I'm gonna keep Going that's, that's, that's a lot of my story. If I point back to the one, the one constant of that painful season, it was that kind of thing. I don't know. Go. I don't know. Keep going. I don't know. Keep going.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So one of the debates and I do want to get to it and maybe it's premature cause I really want to want to hear your story. But you know, I get this question semi regularly. Is that kind of size? Is that kind of momentum? Is that kind of growth? Like what does that do to a human being? So let's take it at the personal level now and then we can talk about organizational later. What did that kind of rocket ride do to you? It got me burned out at 40, 41. And mine was a tiny little rocket compared to yours. And that was the big pivot point of my life. I would have been in some kind of ditch. I don't know what it was. Had my body not stopped working, had God not stopped the train.

[Carl Lentz]

People think I was in a ditch. No, no. God saved me. The ditch I'd be in now had he not saved me out of that season. Care. I can't even.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Same thing. You feel like it was merciful.

[Carl Lentz]

The most kind thing God has. I mean, he's done a lot for me. But it was him air vacing me out of that season. It was not a crash and burn. People love to write that kind of stuff. Along with disgraced pastor to which I challenge Christian journalists to say do better. I'm not a disgraced pastor at all.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What are you?

[Carl Lentz]

I'm a dad, I'm a husband. I'm a man. I'm a Christian. I'm a follower of Jesus. I have made mistakes that are huge. I've also done all I can to continue to amend those. But disgrace? What do you mean disgraced? Why would you put that heading on any person? You're a Christian. I get it if Page Six says it. But you disgraced. What do you mean? And it's a bitter shot from people who have not understood that road. I would never look at another man and say, you're a disgrace to anything. Who are you to tell anybody else they're disgraced? When God says they're graced, who are we? So that's always been a fun thing that I've been waiting to say for about five years. There it is. Get out of it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

There it is.

[Carl Lentz]

Do better. Be a Christian. Put something else. Guy who no longer pastors or guy who went through whatever but to use that word, to me, it's sad.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So what do we say in a situation like that?

[Carl Lentz]

Like that? I mean, I just. Personally, I don't see the fruit of labeling people as disgraced. I think it's a cheap, lazy term.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. Lied, Cheated.

[Carl Lentz]

Sure.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Disqualified.

[Carl Lentz]

Yep. From that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

That's fair.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, for sure. I was rightfully disqualified from the role that I had. Absolutely should have been and was fair, accurate.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I want to go back to the pressure.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I talk to so many leaders, and you don't need to lead to go back to your question. No, no, this is open, man.

[Carl Lentz]

We're not editing this.

[Carrie Newhoff]

But, you know, I talked to so many pastors, and you can have 150 people in your church and feel like a freight train's gonna hit you every morning. And in New York City, it just

[Carl Lentz]

gets amplified, that part of it. And this is a cool thing. I've really talked about this. Laura and I never read our own press ever.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Really?

[Carl Lentz]

Ever.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I mean, I read article. I think it was Rolling Stone or Vanity or Esquire or something. Wrote up about you sneaking Bieber into the back door and baptizing him, all that stuff. And we all read it.

[Carl Lentz]

And I allowed. I did probably one out of 50 interview requests. That's the ratio. So when people are like, you know, I thought it was the least I could do once in a while if the world is going to be intrigued by us, which they are and were and hopefully will always be. With churches that are making. They were attracted to what they didn't know, has always been. There's always been influential people that are following Jesus, always. But for whatever reason, with us, they were like, wow, this church is reaching celebrities. And I was like, have you ever heard of Billy Graham? You ever heard of ar, Bernard over there at ccc? Like that. We're not the first church to reach a lot of people. And hillsong, New York City is 99.9% not celebrity famous. These are just amazing, awesome people. And we happen to have some really famous people, because we should. I think every church should have the ability to stretch their arms wide enough to reach all swaths of life. And so for me, I didn't read our press, but I definitely felt the pressure, and it was hard to manage. It was constant soul consternation about, you know, it just. It's. It's magnified. So what I did was rather than deal with it and bring it out, I just worked harder at what was right in front of us. So we lived a very. We live very similar life that we do now, when people see clips and they see media stuff, they're like, these guys are living the high life.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's like nightclubs every night.

[Carl Lentz]

No, man. Like, that's like, be smarter. Like, surely that's not our life. Like, and it never was. We had some phenomenal experiences. I apologize for none of them beautiful, fun. But that's a very small fraction of our life. We had three little baby kids, and I was very active in New York City. Like, we had three basketball teams in three different leagues. We had a church that was. To this day, I don't know of a church that's grown like ours. I really don't. And I can't wait to talk about church stats. But we were a part of something that was really, really special. But the weight of some of the celebrity pastor labels or whatever, I just. I was taught too well to believe that or to lean into that. If anything was uncomfortable.

[Carrie Newhoff]

When you see people, you had to move venues numerous times because you kept

[Carl Lentz]

outgrowing them over 37 venues.

[Carrie Newhoff]

37 venues, yes. And I still remember, you know, in the early days of Instagram and middays of Instagram, seeing the lineups around the block, the packed rooms.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What did that do to you?

[Carl Lentz]

It. It started to wear me out because I didn't have margin. I didn't understand it. I remember one night, and my team was amazing. Like, I just. Absolutely. So proud of the team we had. But I vividly remember Irving Plaza service number seven. And I was absolutely exhausted, and I was laying down on this couch and somebody had said, hey, I know you planned on having somebody else do this, or maybe we'll play a video. There's about 700 people outside who couldn't get into the last one, so we could probably do another one.

[Carrie Newhoff]

700 people couldn't get into.

[Carl Lentz]

No pressure, but just wanted you to know. And I remember going, of course I'm gonna do it. Like, of like, who wouldn't do that now? I wouldn't have done. The third one would have been like, they're going to be okay. Not for me. Hopefully Jesus is going to still be Jesus and God's going to build his church. But I'm not doing that. Yeah, when you're early 30s. Not. You're not telling me nothing, Carrie. I'm doing it. I'm preaching it all until my throat bleeds. And I did.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What's under that.

[Carl Lentz]

It's. It's interesting to talk about because I think the preaching was always a beautiful escape in the best way is like for that swath of time, I'm gonna talk about Jesus. And I can do that forever. And it's like everything. You forget about everything. It's like, I get to preach this gospel. It's the. It's the greatest message ever preached. It's the only answer for our world. I'm. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna give it. I'm gonna go out like it's the last one. I honestly had that. That mantra. Don't know if I would tell a young pastor to have it, but if this is the last time I ever preach, let me leave nothing on this pulpit. Let me leave nothing on the table. And I preach like that every single time. And I'm proud of the work we put in there. I'm proud of the gospel seeds we planted. And it was too much. It was just too much. And I know that now.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. Today's episode is brought to you by my Art of Leadership Academy. One of the key insights I took away from my recent podcast conversation with Les McEwen is this. If the church can only move at the speed of one leader's insight, a church is always going to be limited by that leader's capacity. I love having great guests on the podcast. Les was one of them. Put another way, church growth accelerates when leadership is shared. So my Art of Leadership Academy is designed to help you and your team think, decide, and lead at a higher level together. Your whole team is learning the same language. When you join, imagine that you share values. Imagine that your leadership frameworks are actually shared and you stop relying on one voice because you feel the pressure as a leader, right? And you start building a leadership culture that lasts. That's what can happen when you join the Academy. So here are a couple of simple ways to get started. You could, for example, read an article that we post and in the Academy and talk about it together in a staff meeting or a Slack channel. You could download my preaching cheat sheet and bounce sermon ideas off each other and really move to team collaboration when it comes to your weekend services. Or you could sit down and work through a course like the Art of Preaching or Fun the Future and get moving on your future together. So if you want to get started completely free, just go to theartofleadershipacademy.com or click the link in the description of this episode. Remember, don't just grow as a leader, grow as a team. Click the link in the description and you can get started today for free. When did. When did the stuff that ultimately led to the end when did that start?

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, the emotion. I'm trying to track it. And I'm such a freaking therapy guy that I've learned the power of, well,

[Carrie Newhoff]

I will camp on it. We'll camp on it.

[Carl Lentz]

I think I. I think there is something in me that we ate. When you completely trash your reputation, you lose the right to defend the good you did. And there was. There have been times on this journey where I'm like, is anybody gonna also highlight the fact that we freaking poured out our lives trying to do the right thing and leading a church in a wilderness. And it was like. And no one. We're not owed that. That's the consequence of destroying your reputation is, no, people aren't going to talk about some of the good stuff. Fair. My heart remembers all of it. So it's like, you have to eat that. If you have done and did the things that I did, I don't get to be like, hey, well, I was genuinely preaching my heart out. It's true, though. Like, you did.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You were.

[Carl Lentz]

Did our absolute best. We did the best we knew how to do. And that's true, too.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And I think, you know, that's one of the. Sadly, one of the questions of our age is the list of pastors who crossed a line. And one day I'm going to talk about, what is that line? Beautiful, man. We'll have another conversation another day.

[Carl Lentz]

Bring me back on for that one.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What is that line? Yeah, I got to do a lot of thinking about that because there's some line and I don't know where it is that somehow says, I still get to play and you don't.

[Carl Lentz]

Yep. Right.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Like, I don't know what that is. I gotta figure that out. And I think it's good that we have a line. Sometimes it's pretty arbitrary, and we have

[Carl Lentz]

to figure that out. Subjective.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's very subjective. And anyway, that's for another day.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

But, you know, there's so many of us who have felt that pressure. And when a pastor crosses the line, that's where I was going. It gets to the point where you can almost look back and go, nothing good happened at Hillsong New York. Nothing good here. Cue the list of all of these pastors. Nothing good happened. It was all a lie. It was all a joke. It was all a scam. And we got hoodwinked. And I've gone into a lot of those questions. And once in a while, I'm sure there's a con man. Once in a while, I'm sure it was all a ruse. It was all, I was stealing money. I was just trying to get famous. But when you really have a conversation, not just with the leads, but with their teams, what you realize is, no, your heart was in the right place and you're fallen and you're a sinner and stuff got out of hand and you ended up in that place. So it's not even always, yeah, intent, you know, and yet you have to take full responsibility for it. You have to take 100% responsibility for my actions. You do for yours. Is there anything else under that emotion before I get to my next question?

[Carl Lentz]

No, no, that's it. It just is a. It's no longer something that I need people to understand.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Fair.

[Carl Lentz]

It is something I like to say.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

So it's like, I'm not gonna. I remember the first we did. We participated in one of the documentaries, and I remember thinking, this is going to be great. People are going to definitely go, okay, that makes sense. That did not happen.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And what did people say the opposite?

[Carl Lentz]

Well, no, I mean, for some people it did, but I thought it would be like, finally, like, it's been. It's been two years. I haven't said a word, and I'm just going to speak this one thing and I'm going to let people know these. These things, and then that'll shut up some people. And then I was like, oh, people actually, they don't care about the truth. Sometimes they are married to the story they tell themselves about me, and I'm never going to be able to change it. So I either just get bitter about that or I let it go and I let that thing go. It was the greatest part of my new life, was finding out I have a deep need to be understood. And that killed me.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

So let me not do that again. I'm not going to be understood. Such a free life. It's okay. I'm going to do all I can to be. To be clear and to be, you know, easy. Easy to get. But at the end of the day, if you. Carrie, if you don't understand me, I can't control that. Wish you the best, but I'm not gonna go lose sleep over it. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How did. How did the sex start?

[Carl Lentz]

So being sexually broken typically starts way before you even know what sex is. That's the truth of my story as well. And I don't even feel the need to say this anymore. I say it just to be super clear for your amazing listeners who might not be familiar with anything about our story. When people like me share reasons they are not excuses.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Thank you.

[Carl Lentz]

There is no excuse for what I did. Zero. There's no couching it. There's no like this, none of it. I am responsible. I have to stand in the consequence of those decisions for the rest of my life. And if I can go back and dig up reasons and let people know, maybe they don't have to hit that same thing that I hit. That's why I do what I do.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. No, from that perspective, because we're all broken.

[Carl Lentz]

There's no excuse. Zero. When it comes to the sexual sin in my life. It was not. I didn't just end up like. I lived a very, very, very strong, moral, above reproach life way more consistently than I did a reckless, destructive sexual life. That's the truth. Now I know. I look back and I go, well, sexually abused as a little guy. Well, that's. That. It's gonna.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It happened.

[Carl Lentz]

Sorry. And I didn't know what to do with that ever. Now I know because I'm like a. I just have dove into the psyche about abuse and what sexual trauma does. And I now know my template was shifted as a little guy, and it was attached to hidden things that are risky and exciting because I was abused by a guy, you know, that had to do with watching things. And I'm a little. I have no idea. But my brain and my body remembered it all. And so then I start sneaking into some porn situations that my parents don't know about. Just little bits here and there. And my parents were incredible. And at that era, it was more like, no, like, look this way, not that way. It wasn't like I have conversations with my son because I was talking to my dad. I was like, dad, you do the best you could. I should be having different combos than you had with me because I know twice as much as you did. So in Roman should have twice as better conversations with his son. But back then it was like, no, this, this.

[Carrie Newhoff]

We don't do this.

[Carl Lentz]

We don't do this. And I'm like, I get that that's wrong. I get that's wrong. But my gosh, do I love it. So what do I do? That means I'm bad now.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

So I've got this shame thing in me growing up as a kid, as. As a young man, and now I'm getting into actual sexual sexual activity at 14 as a. As a guy, trying to figure it out and then start living a life of many people who don't adhere to our faith. I'm just. I'm having Sex when I want to. And, and multiple girls in high school. We go to college, same deal, and then you get saved. It's like, no more of that. Right? Got it. I'm gonna pray and we're gonna war and we are gonna walk away from that life of sin. Cool, man. That's summer camp talk. Biologically, scientifically, Jesus can completely heal somebody's sexual broken past awesome in an instant. And sometimes he heals it over time, and sometimes he heals it in ways we're not ready for. And for me, I didn't get delivered from every feeling I had. I didn't get delivered from my patterns that I had set for decades. And so I did a great job of gutting it out for a long time, you know, I mean, faithful to my wife, faithful to my call. And the little seeds, it wasn't an avalanche. It was just like allowing a thought to go somewhere further and allowing something to become something that shouldn't have been whatever it is. Or just little fraying moments where you're like, I look back now and I'm like, yeah, that's, you know. I think back to a early massage situation that I was in. Completely above board, Nothing was wrong, completely, you know, standard massage, Grade A, standard doctor. But my body didn't feel like that. And I left there going, what was that feeling? Oh my gosh, that's terrible. Like, I, I, I gotta go pray more. Now. If a young pastor were to sit in front of me and say, I got a massage, everything was fine, my body was on fire, my mind went crazy. I want to tell you about it. I've got great call, man. Let's talk about it. Not wrong. You're not broken, you're not weird, you're not lusting. Let's talk about how you got there. Let's talk about what's going on in your heart. That wasn't me. It was. I'm fine. Yeah, I'll never go vanish that, I'll never go there again. But that, that, that, that thing cooks and then over time, you've got this, this volcano in you that you can white knuckle it for if you're strong and you're diligent for a while until you can't.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Was there a breaking point for you that made you decide to take action? Like to turn thoughts and feelings into action?

[Carl Lentz]

No, not that I can remember. No, no, it was just a great question. I've never thought about like that. No, I just feel like it's a, it's the old metaphor of just Cooking a frog, Turning up that water one degree higher and higher.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So when the relationship started, the sex started outside of marriage.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What did that do to the inside of you?

[Carl Lentz]

Honestly, Carrie, it's such a horrible, torturous thing that I just have a lot of grace for guys that are carrying stuff like I did. So for me, it was the beginning of the end of my sanity. And I look back on now and I'm grateful because if it's not, my conscience is seared. And I'm one of the guys we talked about, the charlatan. Right. The guy who is in this.

[Carrie Newhoff]

This was a con from day one.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

And for me, I look back, so I, when I went to, you know, rehab, years later, I have an anxiety disorder. I have all these things, and I'm like, well, I guess on one hand, thank God, because if you're doing what I was doing, which is essentially living in, in some ways, a double life and you don't have soul contention there, that's. That would be. But me, I, I, that's suicidal ideation kicked up immediately. And that, that scared me because I'm not doing anything. That's. But I'm like, I don't. I, I want to. I want to just leave the. Leave the planet. But that's, that's stupid. I know. Now, if you have these thoughts, but you gotta. These are not normal. Yeah. No one, no one. You don't go through a struggle and go, I'm gonna kill myself. But that's how heavy the like. Because I do try to get through this without sobbing. But. It's a holy thing. It's a holy thing to be a pastor. And I knew that, and I love that. Take your time, man. And I have so much reverence for it. And it's fair for a critic to go, really? Did you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Cool.

[Carl Lentz]

You can judge me all you want. I'm telling you that I counted it a high privilege to leave people in that platform. High, Reverend. So to violate that in private and not handle it correctly in any way is horrible for my soul. And it's something I will never let go of. It's not shame. It's a reminder to me. It's a reminder. And so, yeah, it's hard to carry a reverent call, a holy call, with. With the kind of stuff I was dealing with. Yeah. And there's. There's some stuff we're all going to deal with, but the, the bar. To be a leader, to be a pastor is rightfully really high. It's beautiful. It's special for a reason. And to know I'm violating that, you know, it was hard. It was horrible. And it's. It started to wear on my sanity for sure, because I didn't know what to do. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I think we've all lived with gaps between our private walk and our public talk. A season in which my marriage wasn't good. There were times where we were yelling at each other at breakfast, and then I'm up there for two or three services. Here we go. And that's why I want to talk about the line at some point. Where is that line?

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I don't know.

[Carl Lentz]

I mean. Okay, so it's a common question is like, I'll let.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, no, you go, you go. Common question is, you know, how do you.

[Carl Lentz]

How do you preach and do. And do. And be doing these things? Yeah. My answer is hard for people to hear, and I don't even mean it to be a slight, but I go, well, how do you live your life like that? That's how I did it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay, that's interesting.

[Carl Lentz]

That's how I did it. How could you get up and preach and have this stuff going?

[Carrie Newhoff]

I don't know.

[Carl Lentz]

How do you live your everyday? Because what we all do and what I did then, it was wrong. But every single preacher in America this Sunday will get up with sin in their life. Every single one. They have made peace in their mind with that the sin that they're working through is acceptable. It's below the line. They've made that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So whatever, wherever the line is, I'm on the line.

[Carl Lentz]

Well, guess what happens when that thing that they think is okay? Well, if. If there's not a clearer line, then we're all going to make it work for us. So for me, it's like. One funny thing is that I always thought every time I failed in this regard, it was the last time.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay?

[Carl Lentz]

Every freaking.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So that was old me.

[Carl Lentz]

Like, last week was horrible. And I am breaking free of that. And sometimes, you know, you can preach even more passionately because you're like that, you know, by the grace of God. That's not going to be something that, you know, derails me and everybody else. And so however your pastor gets up and preaches every week is how I was doing it. But what he's managing, and I do believe there is a difference. Maybe it is acceptable. He's working that out with people. Maybe his issues are not sexual sin. Maybe he's not. And we know that sin is sin. Consequences are wildly different. So I do. I Don't believe it's okay for some pastors to be dealing with some things in the pulpit. I don't. I think that's. We should clarify the line. But if we do that, we're in really deep trouble because people are going to.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Who's got the clean hands?

[Carl Lentz]

There aren't any.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I know.

[Carl Lentz]

So that's. I compartmentalized so well in my life for my gain that when it came time to do it, for my demise, it was easy because I could compartmentalize. I could lead a church, disciple people. I would remember one Sunday, I preached two services and I did two MBA chapels, and then I did this thing at a park, and then I met with a friend, and then I preached three more. And you do that because you're able to compartmentalize. I'm here now, and I'm here now, and I'm here now. When you bring that matrix into your sin, it's like, that's not for this. This is that I'm able to really. So that's how I. That's how I did it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Dissociated.

[Carl Lentz]

I totally cut off from it. I'm like, that never happened. Everyone's dealing with stuff just like me. And then you tell yourself other stories. Like, the best thing I can do is just cut this out. Because if I were to get honest, you know, it really messed with a lot of people's lives, and that can't be God's will. So that's true.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I mean, it's going to mess with a lot of people's lives.

[Carl Lentz]

Oh, my gosh. And so you compartmentalize. So my easy answer for people is, you know, how could you preach and do that? Well, it's the same way any of us live with brokenness. And it doesn't mean it's the same. Like, I'm not. But that's how you compartmentalize, period.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Did the celebrity culture. Because you took a lot of hits for that.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Was that part of the unraveling? Did that add to the pressure or was it.

[Carl Lentz]

No, because I always thought those people were silly, and I still do. Like, we didn't buy that there wasn't a celebrity culture. It's not true. Just not true.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Tell me more.

[Carl Lentz]

Well, who decided that? So you take five views and then you do a story on it, and that's the culture. I reject that on its face. You weren't there. You don't know. And even if someone was there and they think they know, I think differently. It was my church. I know. So there wasn't a celebrity culture at all. There just wasn't. And I often say people. Can you define what you mean by that? So, like, when you think celebrity culture, what are you referring to? And I'll speak directly to it. Well, I would say people trust you,

[Carrie Newhoff]

but what do you, what does that mean? I would say what I saw of it. And for the record, I mean, I was a lawyer before I did this, right. So I always have a soft spot for people who have everything and have nothing. And I saw that in the legal, financial world. I don't know a lot of celebrities, but I suspect from what I've seen and what I've written that that's a lot of the story. I've got everything, and in the inside, I'm dying.

[Carl Lentz]

Dying. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So I have a heart. Just so you know where I'm coming from for people.

[Carl Lentz]

Okay, so you were talking about celebrity. I thought you were saying we had one in our church.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, see, isn't this good to discuss it? Because we could jump into the comments and duke it out, buddy. And it's like, we didn't have a celebrity culture.

[Carl Lentz]

Yes, you did.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No, we didn't. We don't even know what we're talking about.

[Carl Lentz]

We don't even work.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I mean, talking about like all the famous people that you are interacting with. And I, I, when I read those articles transparently, people beat me up for it. I'm like, good, I'm glad you beat you up, God.

[Carl Lentz]

Like that, that fascinates me because there are all those people. But I don't. The Internet, it's unbelievable. Continue.

[Carrie Newhoff]

But like, when you're, when you're bringing, and I don't want to drop names, but you're bringing famous people, people everybody knew famous people, a listers into your church. A lot of them have spiritual questions. And I've had enough guests on this podcast, they do that. Part of, part of my ministry is I love having atheists on because if I build a relationship with them, I don't know what God's going to do with it. I'm not trying to convert immediately, but, you know, you never know where God's going to take it. And they often get left alone. Nobody can talk to them. Nobody will tell them the truth.

[Carl Lentz]

It's an island.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's an island. That's what I mean by celebrity culture.

[Carl Lentz]

I got you. So that to me was easy money. It was like we, we just did the same thing we always did. And people deserve a chance to be led, to be loved, to be accepted, to be a Part of a community. So for us, it was like. What I found is interesting. A lot of people project how they would respond and don't know it. So they'd be like, it definitely got to your head. I'm going, it would have got to your head. We were built for. It didn't get to our head. Oh, it's like. And people, they don't do enough work to know that they expose themselves by their criticism. So it's the same people will be like, this guy wants a spotlight again. No, bro. A, I could build my own spotlight. Put it on me at any time. And it'd be better than your spotlight. A, not doing that. B, maybe you desperately want a spotlight and have never got it, so that's all you see. So. But with celebrity culture, for us, it was very, it was, it just made.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Of course, if you met them, you're going to try to build a relationship.

[Carl Lentz]

Why would we not do that? Like, and a lot of people are definitely too insecure to handle stuff like that. So they build theology around it. And the truth is dealing with people who have more money, more influence, sometimes more knowledge than you. It threatens you. So you can easily ostracize and pretend they're more lost or they're unreachable. And then if someone else reaches them, that's a slight on you because you've written them off. So you have no choice but to criticize the person reaching them rather than look inside you and go, what's up with you? Why aren't your doors open for that?

[Carrie Newhoff]

So, to the other thing I wasn't asking about, but celebrity culture, that whole idea that you had a VIP role, all that stuff, what are your thoughts on that?

[Carl Lentz]

Dumb. I mean, we have seats like every other church. And what's funny, Carrie, honestly, is that I personally would save about 30 seats of service for my friends. Don't apologize for it. If I own a restaurant, I'm saving a table. Hillsong New York City, I preach my guts out every Sunday. And if I brought somebody, it's my church, I'm going to save that seat, deal with it. Why would that bother you?

[Carrie Newhoff]

And most of the time they were filled by non famous people.

[Carl Lentz]

Non famous people. And so that low hanging fruit criticism, it's just, it's not worth anybody's time because somebody has a beef about something that they're not being honest about. Why would it bother you? And people are like, well, you can't sit. Like, you don't have any issue with the homeless people that sat in the Front row. You don't ever talk about them. You only have issues.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You had homeless people in the front

[Carl Lentz]

row all the time. Those were the seats of honor. Yes, all the time. But no one's talking about that because it would blow up your whole argument. You can't save seats for anybody. Yes, we can. I had a friend who was in a wheelchair, sat him in the front row so we could see better. Deal with it. Had a friend who's 7 foot 2, put him on the side in the back there, and I put a security guard around him so you can't take a photo of him while he worships. Deal with it. Not a big deal. It is that simple. And I can go down the list. And so can people take issue with churches and save seats. Good luck with that life you're living, bro. We're over here trying to fight life and death, and we're doing the best we can. And in our church, we had safe seats like everybody else. It wasn't a thing. It just wasn't. Now am I in control of every interaction that goes down? So that seat coordinator who's a beautiful volunteer, is she having the right conversations? I don't know, Carrie. Probably not. Could she have said something. Could that man have said something that led people to believe our church? That probably happened all the time, like it does in every church in America. So we can't. The parking guy who says, you better come back next week or God doesn't love you anymore. That pastor doesn't know that was said. Now maximize that by a billion. If your church is in, there's going to be gaps like that. So when all of our stuff kind of was burnt down, I thought it was so funny. I watched it from afar. Going wherever your church is at in that moment when the pastor, you know, explodes his life like I did, that's what people get to pick apart because that's the end of that shot. So now people get to look at angles that they used to love, but now they have time to pick it apart from the other way. And I watch people do that with our organization, and I'm like, okay, cool. Last week, you were in the front row of Hillsong Conference taking copious notes. This week, we're the worst church ever, and nothing we've ever done matters, and our system's faulty.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How do you respond to your critics?

[Carl Lentz]

Thank you. Thank you. Their presence sometimes aligns mine. And if I can find out a lot about my life by who criticizes me. And I believe that in Hillsong, New York City I believe it today in Tulsa, Oklahoma. If there's some people who aren't criticizing me, God's gotta take me home. A, it means I'm not a problem anymore. B, I hope you don't like what I do, because if you did, I wouldn't be living the life God's called me to live. So now I hold critics with grace rather than passive aggressive resentment because I always check to see if they're right first. That's a new pattern.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Where have they been? Right?

[Carl Lentz]

Give me a criticism and I'll ask you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay, let me think about it.

[Carl Lentz]

I just wanted to create the biggest

[Carrie Newhoff]

church in New York City, and it was all a plan. And you were hiding this stuff for years.

[Carl Lentz]

Not true. Not true. We never set out to have a big church. We set out to reach every single person in front of us, period. So that's off the board. Hiding this stuff all along. Not true. I wasn't. Give me another one. This is great.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay.

[Carl Lentz]

Toxic culture, not true. Human culture, toxic mixes. Because that's gonna happen anywhere you go at all times.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So let's break that one down. If you were starting a church today, which you're not, if you're starting an organization, a company, you name it. It could be a coffee shop. What did you do at Hillsong that you would not repeat in terms of culture? And what would you want to start to make sure it's healthy? And for those of you listening to this podcast, I'm just gonna interject for a minute. I mean, you've said a lot of things that can be construed as defense, not defensive, but answering your critics in this conversation. I listen to dozens of episodes of Lights On. You see the work in lights on. If I didn't see the work in lights on, we're not having this conversation.

[Carl Lentz]

Okay. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So I want people to be.

[Carl Lentz]

These are not defenses. This is me giving answers. I don't want. I don't need to defend it. Okay. But I'm happy to answer it. So.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No, no, that's great.

[Carl Lentz]

Upon post. Cut that. So it makes. I don't want this.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No, I think we should just in.

[Carl Lentz]

I'm happy to speak to it. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No, it is.

[Carl Lentz]

You have no agenda other than clarity.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I don't.

[Carl Lentz]

I don't ever. When people. Here's my normal answer for critics. Thank you for sharing. I'm not interested in convincing you of anything.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

But if you're going to ask me about it, with the platform that you have for the leaders that watch this, I want to answer it. So they can glean and learn and take what they want. So it's a joy.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So for me, looking back 15 years ago, there are parts of my culture that. The culture that I helped shape and steward that were unhealthy. I was a workaholic. I had high demands.

[Carl Lentz]

Guilty.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. I was texting people on Saturday mornings. I still remember this.

[Carl Lentz]

Probably Lord Jesus. Oh, God.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Gosh. Pushing 20 years ago.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

People talk about old Carrie and New Carrie and old Carrie would. I remember texting our XP at that time, who had come over from Pepsi on a Saturday morning because we had just planned to the church. I had all kinds of ideas, and I'm like, hey, can we. And I remember she texted me back and she said, do we always have to talk about church on a Saturday? Can we not just have a day off?

[Carl Lentz]

Okay.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And I'm like, great. I do not do that anymore. Unless it's an absolute emergency, I will call on a Saturday. We have a closed laptop policy, and my team hustles.

[Carl Lentz]

I struggle. Let me just. I gotta interject. There are so many things I would do different.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, let's go there.

[Carl Lentz]

Let's talk first one.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

So slow. I will go so slow.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, you would now go so slow in everything.

[Carl Lentz]

You tell me what you're going to do, though. When your church grows by a thousand in a day, 3,000 in a month, you've got a staff of 10, you've got 70 volunteers, and you've got this thing going on here. What do you do? You good. You run that. You're good. You believe that Jesus was real. That's enough. God good.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

Hey, my amazing, you know, teammate over here who, who's preaching your marriage. Good. Okay, I. I. Call me later. Gospel. You good? How much are you? How much are we paying you? How do you live on that? Ah, go that part. I would freaking change. But I'm also 47. I don't look at life the same. I don't care about those things anymore. So I would tell the youth pastor, I would have said to gut it out. Like, I look back on and I've been able to make amends where I can with some of my team. And that's on their terms, not mine. So I'm always available. And over the five years, people have trickled across the bow to have whatever they need to have. And it's my. I don't want to.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Golly.

[Carl Lentz]

It was very tough for me to even get to a place to even be able to look. Some of these people in the Eye. Because they gave everything they had, and I let them down. Then in those moments, I left them vulnerable. And I now look at that in a place where I can use it to make me better rather than make me sad. And that's where I stayed hard. I even sense it now. But, yeah. So to look at some of these people, the way that I led was the best I knew how. I just would lead differently now. And I would take more time. I would ask more questions. I would. I would just go slower. Carrie, that's the best word. Slow. Slow, slow. And I wasn't getting pressure from Brian. There was no. There was. I'm not. I was never. I hated that narrative. It was the dumbest one that I was upon in this big scheme. Brian wasn't a chess player. He wasn't. Brian was just like when people talk about the guy at the top of the totem pole. Me and Laura have been part of this church, Laura, her whole life. Me, through Steve Kelly. That was my entry. And then through working for Brian. Personally. Hillsong Church is all I've ever known. The goal was never world domination. That's a lie. I've seen some of these stupid things. I'm like. They make it this big, nefarious thing. And the way they cut stuff up, and I'm like, you have no idea, man. That's not. It's not the truth. I would tell you, Carrie, I got nothing to lose. I got no affiliation with Hillsong Church. None. Zero. I don't care. I'll call it out when I see it. I'm telling you, it's a church that just. God just breathed on and it grew. But world domination? No, it never was. But all that to say, the culture of speed and power and growth, I would shift all that now.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You'd tap the brakes a little more.

[Carl Lentz]

I wouldn't even start that car up. We're taking mules. No. No brakes to pump. That's not going to go well. So from where I sit now, we're going to go. We're going to. We're going to go slower. Everything's too valuable. The repercussions are too big if we get some of this stuff wrong. So we're going to go slower. We're going to do one service for a long time, and we're going to say no.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Here's the deal with the lines.

[Carl Lentz]

Yes. Because what good is it if you get work? Case in point, it burnt down, Carrie. It burnt down. So, yeah, a lot of good. But at the end of the day, how do you build something that goes through it well. So that's one thing I know for sure I would do differently, is I go slower. But I wasn't slow, Carrie. I was cooking my personality. It was perfect for New York City. Everything fit me perfectly well. I loved everything about that culture. The speed of it, the rawness of it, the grittiness of it, the contrarian nature of an entire city. I am a contrarian. I had to shift that because it didn't serve me well. That was one of the big changes I've had to make over the past five years. But I loved it. But it really was a beautiful segue for somebody to keep running because there was always something for me to do. Good stuff.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Do you think that's kind of a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway? Do you think that kind of speed is simply inhuman? That had another leader done it, they could have aced it.

[Carl Lentz]

Or, or it just, I don't think so.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Kills you?

[Carl Lentz]

I think it kills everybody. I don't know anybody who has that pace and does well, has a life that I want. And I started to know, I started to realize that, even not in a judgmental way of Brian, a compassionate way, of, this guy's going before us, and he's going through some heavy, heavy fights, and he's tired and he's going through a lot. Let me protect my pastor. Let me do what I can to hold him up. But I don't know if I want to repeat some of these patterns, because when I'm 70, when I'm 75, when I'm 80, I want to be laughing. I want to be, I want to be making fun of young guys. I want to be, like, skipping church and, you know, beaming in from some satellite somewhere because I'm out, You know, I, I, I want to have joy increasing in increasing measure. That's what I want. And that life, ah, it doesn't for me, for my money, I'm so freaking grateful. I see guys, my old peers, and I just got nothing but compassion across the board. Some of them are doing great. Other ones are. They're dying a slow death. And you can't tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I do. And I look at them and I don't judge them, but I go, I know the feeling of not being able to get out of the game that you hate,

[Carrie Newhoff]

and that, that, that is part of the project I want to work on at some point.

[Carl Lentz]

Wow.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How do you get out of the game that you hate and maybe build a better game. We need a better game, and we need to reach people. We need to grow. But there is something unhealthy in the rapidity, in the scale, and very few leaders have been able to navigate it with integrity. So you went to rehab?

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You went to rehab. What happened?

[Carl Lentz]

Why'd I go? Or what happened at rehab? Yeah, I went to.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Why'd you go?

[Carl Lentz]

So here's the succession. The news comes out. I tell Laura our life as we knew it completely ends. And Bob Goff, Dino Rizzo, by the grace of God, Definitely saved my life. I mean, it was dark. It was dark. I mean, when that stuff happened, those first two days, I had a couple different plans.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What were your plans?

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. And that's not, you know, a sympathy plan. I'm just letting you know, I told you on the phone, I'm Call it like it is when we talk. I owe you that. But it was bad. Like, I was. I was finding ways to close some things down, and I was so, so, so distraught. And Dino never, never walked away. Bob Goff, who I'd known now, on this level, I got a call from this guy, and I knew Bob, but, like, to know somebody in your valley, it's a different. The different experience. And he just said, hey, we're going to get you. We're going to get you to a place that's going to help you. And, you know, you're gonna get in this car and I'm gonna walk you through. Call me when you land. And. And. And I went to. The first place I went to was on site, which was a place that just really helped me a not want to kill myself. And it's like I'm talking about a different person. So I feel compassion for that part of my story. I don't feel like that now. But I. I went there and. And I just said, oh, maybe. Maybe there's some hope for me. You know, Maybe there's some hope. Like, I left there so encouraged and had no idea of the fallout to come at all. But, man, I definitely went there and I was like, I'm not. I'm not lost. You know, I'm not. I'm not a. I'm not, you know, because so many things go through your head, Carrie. Like, how could I do this? Like, how could I risk this? How did I. How did I do this? Over and over and over and over and over and over. If someone stop you, you will take your life to know where to go with that. Because there are no answers. No. Good answer. Like, how could I do that?

[Carrie Newhoff]

I actually did that. Yeah, right. Like, I'm not being missed. I didn't do everything, but I did that.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, I did this. I destroyed this beautiful thing I gave me it. Destroyed it. And I'm embarrassed and I'm humiliated. I'm sad and I'm regretful and. And then you just go off a cliff and on site, stop that cliff for me.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And it's helped so many people.

[Carl Lentz]

And I left there, and Laura and I were in California. And as hopeful as I was, I could feel the tidal waves of these patterns happening again. Matter of time. Oh, really?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, Gary, you did the intensive, and you're like, oh, wait, we get out

[Carl Lentz]

of New York, we go to California, try to get our bearings. And I was like, with all of this, I want to do the same things. That's instinct.

[Carrie Newhoff]

All the instincts were there.

[Carl Lentz]

Every single pattern, if not exacerbated. And Laura came back from on site, and that was my first time alone with the kids. And she came back and she was. She literally was a new version of herself. She said, hey, I want you to know a couple things. Like, I'm gonna grow. I'm gonna move on with my life. I'm not gonna divorce you or leave you, but I will never wait here, ever. I'm going. And I want you to know that I love you and. But I'm. I'm not. I'm not putting myself in that position I was in ever again. No, she's not gonna be a victim. And I said, okay. And I need you to know this is not a good weekend. And I broke your trust again. So. It wasn't like a extreme violation, but in this brand new template we have, I did. I. I broke your trust again. And. And I said, I gotta get some help. I don't know what to do. Like, I. I gotta go from on site, too. I gotta get. You know, and Dino. Dino, I gotta. I gotta go somewhere. I don't know where to go. You know, I never thought this. I don't. I've never given two craps about this side of life. I've never. I don't know what pastors do when they destroy their lives. And he said, I know a place. You know, Dino with his Cajun draw, I got a place, you know, and then how much Dino, I lost. We're gonna make it work. And somehow I ended up at, you know, General Path in Arizona. And it was pivotal for me. It's not everything, but rehab is a Place to really find out I was. I had a low, you know, I had a depression. Staple of my life. I had a drug addiction that I was not aware of in any way, which is hilarious.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Was it a prescription drug?

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah. So I'll tell you exactly what it was. So I. I've been on Ritalin since I was 14 years old. Go to college, you know, whatever, and then you. And then I had a breakdown moment in Virginia beach, where I just wasn't managing stuff. That's when someone gave me. It wasn't Adderall. Something close to that. And then I started taking Adderall, which was a beautiful help for me for a long time. Really was. But towards the end of my horrible cycle and I started to. I started to just, like, up my own dose, find other ways to get it. And it was. But I was consistent with my addiction, though. It wasn't like I was. I would take the same amount every day without fail, and it was twice as much as I was prescribed. This makes you insane when you look at it on chemical chart.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Crack.

[Carl Lentz]

Heroin's here, Adderall's here. Our government loves this. Government penalizes this. Why would that be? But. And so I go see, you know, I go to this rehab and I'm like, I'm here because I've got sexual problems, you know, sexual sin. And also, where are my meds at? And the lady was like, about that. You won't be getting your medication here. I said, well, that's stupid, because I need that medication. How am I going to learn anything here? And I want my medication. She said, you're not going to get it here. And I said, I will get it here or I'll leave. She said, you are free to go at any time. And I said, watch me leave. And I went and packed my bags and started walking into the desert of Wickenburg, Arizona, and just dropped my bags and turn around and four of these staff guys are sitting there. I guess that's not uncommon. It's a beautiful thing, having a rehab in the middle of the desert.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It took me a while before the Uber gets.

[Carl Lentz]

And, yeah, I took my bags back, threw them in there and. And the lady said, you know, it's pretty clear you have a drug addiction as well. And I was like, you think? And it just dawned on me. And people can, you know, judge that, laugh at that. I don't care. I'm telling you, I didn't think that's what it was. And so that was the first big thing. Laura says that's the Thing that really gave her the most hope and belief that maybe I was serious about changing. Because she hated the impact of that drug on me. Hated it. It made me extraordinarily focused. Very, very. It helped my adhd. But, man, was it volatile. My moods. And so she was always pointing to it. But when I came back on my own, said, by the way, I remember writing her a letter. She said that was something that God used to give her hope that maybe this could change, because I was never letting that go. So I went to rehab and found out I was at, you know, you're

[Carrie Newhoff]

never gonna let your drugs go.

[Carl Lentz]

No way. I didn't even think it was a problem. Like, I need that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right.

[Carl Lentz]

And then.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Because it was prescription.

[Carl Lentz]

Absolutely. And so start, you know, weaning off that and. And then you get in there and you find out about your sexual patterns, that you're not insane. You're pretty common. And that sucks, because it's like, you feel like the terminal uniqueness. No one knows my problem. You go to rehab, everybody's got your problem.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

Nobody's different.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You're not unique.

[Carl Lentz]

No, we can tell ourselves. You're just not you all. No one will get. Everybody gets it. No one's. No one's unique. Like, these problems are problems of humanity and sin. And then I start to get the tools, what it's going to take. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know if I want to do that kind of work, because that's ridiculous. Like, I had to relearn how to think again. And I'm a thought leader. I'm. I'm a preacher. I got some good fruit on the board here. I know what I'm doing. I got to rethink. I got to rethink how I think. And then I have to live this life. And they. I remember one of my therapists saying, if you make it through the se. The. The season of boredom, you'll remain sober. If you don't, you'll be back here or worse. Really. And I know what she meant about five months later when I was like, hey, I. I hate my life. There's no dopamine. There's no excitement. There's no risk. Because I found out there.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Because sex was excitement for you.

[Carl Lentz]

The drugs risk, excitement, escape, validation, connection, you know, pseudo intimacy, you name it. All that's off the board because it's never. People always love the end result of a scandal that includes sex. That's not the story. That's the headline. The story is the Giant pattern that led to it. So I can look at anybody in the headlines right now. I don't look at them the way everybody else is. How do you see it? I see brokenness. So when you see that guy who's in prison for these crazy things, fair. All this stuff's horrible. But I don't. He's not different than me. He's not different than people judging him. He went through some stuff. It did not get fixed. Hurt people, hurt people. And yeah, he's got to pay for his crimes, but he's not a worse human being. His dysfunction just looks different than yours. So I learned to hold things like that in places like this rehab because I'm like, oh, man, this is so. Yeah, I think that was a huge moment for me to go. That's a lot of work. I remember getting out. One of the first conversations I had with my therapist was like, hey, I. I might need to at least talk to Laura about open marriage, because she won't go for it. But I don't know if I could ever, like, I don't. I don't know if I could. I don't know if I could change and become this new person. I guess I don't know what it's like to really be faithful. Because I was cheating in my mind way before I was cheating in my body, cheating on my patterns way before I was cheating on my family. And these patterns are going to take a long time. And I don't want to risk hurting my wife again. I don't want to risk anything, so. And my therapist said, cool, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna make a decision to not make big life change decisions in this state. So a year from now, bring that. I'll bring that open marriage back up and we can talk about it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Was that an open marriage for you or for her?

[Carl Lentz]

I was just going, what do I do? Yeah, you're like, yeah, I'm gonna live. Are you kidding me? Like, I don't. Once you see how bad it is inside you, it's either horrifically scary, hopeful. And then for me, it was still scary. It's transitioned to, like, powerful, tangible hope. But then it was like, I think I might make it, but I'm definitely not going to risk anything.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And that's after five months of rehab.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, Rehab was, you know, the, the. The 45 days. Okay. And this is like a month and a half after that, trying to get back re. Acclimated. And I'm like, so a year does go by. And she said, by the way, do you want to talk about old marriage? I was like, oh, I'm sorry I ever said that. But it was part of my process because of course I don't want. I was making. I was thinking about making a decision from the most broken part of who I am. And thank God I had a woman in front of me who was not gonna allow that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What have been some keys to cause again, I've listened to Laura. I've heard her story. I've heard you with your counselor. There's years under this 90 minute, two hour conversation. What has made the marriage between you and Laura work and made it healthy maybe in a way it never had been pre crash.

[Carl Lentz]

We both are Jesus followers. So this conversation begins and ends with the grace of God, period. And so if you have an atheist listener or someone who adheres to a different faith.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Cool.

[Carl Lentz]

On this one. You're just going to take a second because I. We're not here, Carrie, on our own doing or power. Yeah. There's no explanation for it. There's no. We're not working harder than other couples. We're not. Like God's grace is. Has really shown up for us, you know, and given us the ability to stick with it. Like the. The biggest thing is we just keep. We've just kept going.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

In every stage. Like not being able to talk to each other, look at each other, but we're walking. And the big thing I point to from our story, from our experience, not true for everybody, but we did zero couples counseling. Zero. Not a one, not one.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Just individual.

[Carl Lentz]

Because I was taught a different framework with that, and it made complete sense to me. Like when I got to rehab, they said, we do not care about your marriage. Nobody in here can talk about your marriage. It's stupid. You can change behavior and keep your marriage and still be the same person. You cannot become a new person, have the same marriage. Impossible. If you become a new person, your marriage will be a byproduct of that. So we're not worrying about your stupid marriage that you wrecked. Fix your life and then tell me what kind of marriage you're going to have. Laura got the same advice. So we're on two different tracks, looking over at each other, working. And then when you finally do start coming together, in some ways it's very powerful. And so our road has been individual, but together in that. And we'll go couples counseling now. Here and there.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

But it's just for fun. It's like this is a constant question. We both have let's talk to Alex about it. But it's not like our bedrock because same way, accountability. So let me get this straight. You're not honest with your wife by yourself, but you're going to go sit in a marriage counseling thing and be honest with. And it does work for people. That's why I already couches. So if some person takes that one thing and does what they'll do, just know for those of you listen the whole conversation, it's great. I love marriage counseling for some people. For us, man, it really pushed us forward doing our individual work. So that's a very clear hallmark that I can point to and say that's been a huge key for us.

[Carrie Newhoff]

When your world gets turned upside down like yours did, did you ever think about deconstructing, like just walking away from Christianity, the faith?

[Carl Lentz]

No. No. Because even then, like, I would love to believe that I'm a pretty progressive thinker and I never understood the deconstruction thing. I always had grace for it. But Jesus had nothing to do with my life apart.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay.

[Carl Lentz]

The local church had nothing to do with me destroying that part of my life. Nothing.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No.

[Carl Lentz]

So I just, I would do things differently, but I never deconstructed my bedrock in Jesus. And that's why we were always good pastors, because we, hey, don't, do not get married to this church. We will fail you if we haven't yet. If you don't know Jesus, this is going to be a very short walk. He's the one, he's the conduit, he's the connection point. And then you can handle church a lot better. That was always our framework, so that didn't change once I lost everything. I knew I had a different relationship with Jesus begin that day though.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How did it take your time?

[Carl Lentz]

Felt like for the first time I was like a regular follower of Jesus because I realized, you know, pretty much from day one I was leading people and that impacts how you walk. It does. It did me and maybe other people. But for the first time as a broken 41 year old man, I'm going, huh? I got time to work some of this stuff out. Let me just, let me get to know Jesus from this place in my life. And I'm so grateful for it because it's my favorite thing of my new life is my, my, my. This chapter with Jesus has been really special to me because I got nothing to offer. And then you realize, oh, I never had anything to offer. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

If you were redoing your spiritual walk from the time of Your conversion. Knowing what you know now because you know faith is a byproduct of ministry in too many cases.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, for sure.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And I've been a decade out of the lead pastor role now. And I always had.

[Carl Lentz]

Congratulations.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, thanks. I always had a. I'm going to read through the Bible because I don't want to keep cheating for Sunday kind of thing. And I'm still doing that like all these years later. But you know, it is different. I would say my relationship with God, it wasn't, wasn't false by any stretch. But it's richer now, I think in part because I was able to disentangle the Sunday to Sunday from the who I am on Wednesday. And I don't know if you were redoing it. What would you do differently in your spiritual life?

[Carl Lentz]

That's a great question. I'll say this first. I'm grateful for the whole journey. Cause it led me here today in this version. So, yeah, I believe that regret's a wasted emotion. I tell people that all the time. But I can reflect. And I'd go, okay, for instance, I've talked to some big church haters about this and part of my life right now is this, like it's a joy. But I meet with some pastors who are on the verge of explosion, growth, great thing, whatever, and I'm able to say what I'm going to say now, which is maybe the new frontier looks like cool. You want to plant a church? All right, we got this thing. It's going to take you about three years, but here's what it's going to look like. And then we'll talk in three years. Because the damage done with situations like mine is so severe that let's take some more time and make sure that the young guys coming through, the young girls coming through that are awesome, they got potential and they're charismatic and they got leadership. Let's teach them some tools that most people only learn, like me post destruction. What if they get those tools early? So now, I mean, I have my hate. My. I make my money with my, my daughter's friends and my son's friends. Because I'm like, you put a 15 year old in front of me. I'm gonna teach them right now about what it means to think differently. And you can. And you just. You see these people rise like my daughters are. They're going through their own beautiful life, stuff like that. But the way they think is incredible. I just had no idea. So it's different.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How are you teaching them to think

[Carl Lentz]

it's so heavily identity generative thinking based that it's. I don't even want to give away all the goods here, Carrie.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

[Carl Lentz]

But sort of your identity meaning, I think I'll say this. The biggest myth in modern evangelical church is the brain. By far. By far. And when I, my, when I now the way I hear what Jesus says and what I see in the gospel, I'm like, oh my gosh. I would define the way that I lived and led as the power of doing more and better and doing good things. That's not the wheelhouse of this faith. It is being not doing. We are in a church world where we are. I mean, these. I can barely stomach watching preachers sometimes on TikTok or whatever because I'm like, oh, Lord Jesus. Oh, you're going to get an applause in five years from now. Because what sounds good to preach isn't the most helpful all the time. It's not exciting. The right stuff's not always exciting. To build habitual thinking rituals, that's the key to life. But that's not sexy, viral. It's not entertaining. There's ways we can make it cool. But so that to me is the biggest shift that I would look back and I would go, we'd take more time and we would look under the hood so much deeper. And this is not a knock on anybody from that era, but I was not a part of the time era where they were talking about like, hey, do you have any trauma? Not even a word. And that's a word that's now overused. We all get all that. But it's also still very true. Let's talk about sexual history. Let's talk about sexual propensity. You know what that word is? And I would even think, this is awesome. I was talking Laura about this. If I sat on a lie detector when I'm 23 and answered questions that would have been more fruitful than whatever was happening when I was that age. Because at that age, if you sit with me, hey, how's your thought life? How's your. It's good. I got some challenges here. They're picking apart stuff. They're answering how they think you want, right?

[Carrie Newhoff]

I'm answering to pass the test.

[Carl Lentz]

My funniest podcast question I always reject is, what would you tell the 22 year old you? I was like, the 22 year old me would have punched the 47 year old me right in the face. He wouldn't have listened and then prayed for me because that 47 year old is like, you couldn't tell me anything, all right? And that's not uncommon. Not even a bad way. I just would be like, no, I'm good man. Like you. You need to pray more.

[Carrie Newhoff]

When you're thinking of.

[Carl Lentz]

Of.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Of, you know, the TikTok clips and the things you say that you know are going to get applause. Let's be honest. That's a trick. Was there a part of you that was addicted to the applause?

[Carl Lentz]

No, because it didn't hit me like people thought it did because I was loathing myself.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

So that's hard for people to understand. Like, people from a far distance, they. They have low hanging, low IQ takes on guys like me. I don't judge them for it. I'm doing the best they can. But guys like that live for this, live for that. You're not a guy like me. You've never lived my life. How can you even know that? And no, the applause didn't matter to me at all because I knew that there was discrepancy and there was duality. So if anything, it made it worse.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So it's kind of like you.

[Carl Lentz]

You.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You won an Oscar, but you only acted some of the scenes or something like that.

[Carl Lentz]

Like, it was like, I really was the Voice.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, I really.

[Carl Lentz]

Okay. So the applause did not move me at all. In fact, it made it worse. The bigger the acclaim, the more shame I felt. The bigger the growth, the more pain. Like I told Laura, I was like. I realized in New York, I never really celebrated a true win ever. Not one. And everybody else. So let's just say a win is a 10. Everyone's at a 10. I'm at a 7 because something's wrong in me. So nothing. It would just create more pressure.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. Yeah. What's a question nobody asks you in a conversation like this? That you're like, would someone. I'd love someone to ask me that question.

[Carl Lentz]

Dang it, Carrie, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know because I feel like it's tough for me to answer because I feel like I exist. Now to answer the question that somebody.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, you have left very few stones unturned in these last few years on your podcast, in the conversations and everything. Well, we were talking before we hit record about the two models we have for people who find themselves in your situation. Living the double life, exposed empire burns to the ground. Rehab. Well, no, pre rehab. The day it happened, the story breaks, you're canceled. It's over. There's two models we have practically one is you pop up across the street next week. I'm back, I'm better, I prayed, I'm forgiven.

[Carl Lentz]

Absolved.

[Carrie Newhoff]

The other, you're banished to the wilderness like the scapegoat in the Old Testament, never to be seen or heard from again. And we have seen both play out over and over again. The model, and this is why I'm having the conversation. I've seen you pursue and I believe on good faith that you're pursuing is exactly what you said before. It's when Henry Cloud writes about in his book trust. No, I'm a new person. I'm a different person. I am doing stuff every day that makes sure the Carl Lentz at 47 is not the same Carl Lentz at 37 and that I'm working. And you even said that, you know, you had to do two rehabs because it's like, oh, the old guy's still here. Yeah, I gotta get out. And you know, when you think about those two models we have for people who ended up in the situation that you ended up and did the things that you did.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What do you wish would change about that dialogue?

[Carl Lentz]

I think just definitive prescriptive ideas about it and it's probably going to lead us right to qualification. So the conversation I hear a lot, which is always funny to me, is it's underneath all this stuff because it's never me, because I've. I've never once expressed a desire to ever go back to do ministry like I did, ever. But yet it's like people desperately want to think, you know, for a small fraction of people, like, I'm very careful, I don't generalize anymore. For instance, somebody said to me, I'm sorry for what the church did to you, how they treated you. And I said, what are you talking about? Like, just the church. I said, you mean, oh, the church at large. Amazing to me and my family. Kind, compassionate, awesome, some bad experiences. But I don't let people do that anymore. It's like, no, no, no. But like, the, the qualification issue is very clear in scripture. What qualifies somebody? Very clear. And these are all present tense words used. These are character, these are virtues. These are. So to be qualified to be a pastor, the guy has to live this life. Which, by the way, Carrie, if we were to have just a fun game of picking out each one, very interesting because the same people will point out someone's disqualification, I'd say, well, you're living under this banner here that a pastor must be these things. Do you really want a spotlight on each of these. And then when you find something, they'll justify it. So I can take something simple as like a household that's under control. Okay. So let's just say you've got a son that's going through a tough time. Yeah. You, you expect to stay in your pastoral role because for you that doesn't mean that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right, Right.

[Carl Lentz]

Or just like you were talking about above reproach. I live above reproach according to you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Right. But nobody can ask you a hard question on your staff.

[Carl Lentz]

Sure. Or, or what is it? But you, you don't, you don't live above reproach. People question you all the time. But you have rationalized that as that's okay. So you're still good. And so the qualifications are absolute mess. Even though the Bible makes it clear we are filled with duality in our judgment of and our upholding of these. That's the first thing. So Bible's clear on what qualifies. I was rightfully disqualified from the mission and the role that I had there. You and I both know you know your Bible way better than I do. The Bible says nothing about requalification. Firstly, there is nothing anybody saying otherwise. They don't know their Bible or they're standing on an inference that I reject on its face. In fact, the Bible would speak to. You know, there's two different conversations here. Restoration back to life is all I've ever been interested in when it comes to restoration to ministry. My thing is not am I, can someone be re qualified. My personal belief is abso freaking lutely tell me why they can't. Like these are present tense things. So to pretend that a minister who's fallen cannot be restored in the ministry is wild to me. The question is not can they? The question is is it wise? Right. So I live under the banner of not. I'm not doing ministry because I don't want to, not because I'm disqualified in any way. Now having said that, my personal belief is the level of impact and sin. I personally find it a reverent way to hold it where I got at least as much time showing improving and living a different way. So someday the conversation of is Carl Lentz qualified to be a leader in a church again? That's going to come down to communal discernment, not my own. It's not between me and God. It's going to come down to what's the am I becoming the man I say I am not in my quality if I'm becoming the man I say I am. This conversation's off the table. But to me, it's a matter of wisdom. I don't feel like the reverent kind thing to do to the role that I fell from is to immediately ever talk about or think about walking back into something like that. If I ever feel like that's something that interests me, I will submit to a process that includes. So to me, if someone wants to, if they've been disqualified from ministry and they're claiming I am qualified again, that's going to be a group decision. And then ultimately comes down to the people who choose to follow these men and women. That's who it really comes down to.

[Carrie Newhoff]

That's a community decision.

[Carl Lentz]

Right. So I don't, I don't subscribe to it now. I speak to it boldly. For years I just let that conversation ride. But now it's easy for me to speak to because I have nothing to hide, nothing to prove. Like, I've been graced by God to find a beautiful lane outside of ministry that I absolutely love. So that's the other problem, Carrie, is that when God doing this work, if you fall sexually. Right. As a pastor with all that at stake, to pretend that you can come back in any time frame that's close to that fall. My personal experience of being a guy who's walked that road, it takes a whole lot of work to be in that position and misuse it in that way. That's not a doing fix, that's a being issue. You have to change who you're being. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

From the inside out.

[Carl Lentz]

Absolutely. I'm not interested in your changed behavior. I'm really not. I'm not interested in. I, I don't. So I don't get it. I don't judge it. But I'm with you. I see it and I'm going, that seems quick, man. Like, you must be a better man than me. But for me, I'm like doing leadership and ministry and church again. I'm honored to help a lot of churches right now. From the seat I'm in, it's a joy. But I'm good there. Like, I can speak anywhere, I can do whatever I want. But to hold that role again, out of complete reverence, I don't even entertain the conversation. Yeah. Because it's not a matter of am I. Do I technically believe that people can be re qualified to minister? I personally do because I believe the Bible points to this. You cannot tell me. It does not. You can tell me what a qualification is. Therefore, the inference is when we don't meet these, we are disqualified. Show me the passages about requalification. Show me the one about permanent disqualification. Won't find that one either. So it's tricky. And I understand why it's tricky. You got the John MacArthur's who, you know, who say these things that are definitive. He's not God. He's not speaking from the Bible. That's his opinion. Like, someone falls sexually, they're irreversibly damaged and can never come back to the pulpit. Cool, bro. That's your opinion, though. There's no basis for that. There is basis to say, yes, I'm qualified, but is it healthy? Is it wise? Is it kind? Does it make sense? Is it fair on the people? If I ever get to a place where I feel like all those things line up, I'm interested. If that's the way it goes. I have no plans or no desire, but I say that for everybody else who may. And I look at a man who says, I fell, Carl. And I feel like God's called me to ministry.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Cool.

[Carl Lentz]

Let's. Like, you're not disqualified from the thought of it, but man wisdom, tact, checks, balances. Like, you can never act like that's. It's like me and Laura in marriage, I've lost the right forever to win an argument or be mad at her for demanding something of me. So five years in, if she were to say, let me check your phone. For me to be like, really? After five years, really? I would be a lost soul. My response is going to be, here it is 50 years from now because of what happened. So you talk about a pastor that's fallen like I did. Brother, you're crazy if you don't put triple eyes on me. If you don't, I would, and I would still give somebody a chance. But for me to act like I'm never gonna. I'm not going to make people try to forget what I walk through. I'm going to tell you what I walked through. So you get to choose right away. Hey, here's the truth. I did fall. I did have duplicity. I did lie. There were some things that I'm so grateful that God's brought me out of, but those are real. You need to know that moving forward, if you're going to be in my life, you're going to trust what I say. Here's what I would do if I were you. Talk to this person. Talk to that person. Don't listen to me. You can. I'm trustworthy. But you're not wrong to Question that. I did that, not you. So your suspicion's not on you, it's on me. I can live with that. I'm happy. I'm be right here. And because I know where I'm headed, I'm not worried about that. Watch me. Cool. And everyone has their own meter of. Like someone said the other day, like, you know, you've really. You've earned my respect. And I said, I handled it. Well, inside, I'm going, I never wanted it or needed it, but interesting. I wonder what it was for that particular person because you look at my comment sometimes like, this guy hasn't changed another person. I really feel like the guy's changed.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Cool.

[Carl Lentz]

Like, okay, great. So everyone has to make their own call. Nobody's right, nobody's wrong. Just needs to be said. No, there's no arbitrary rules for this stuff. How do you know he's not really repentant? Okay, man. Well, unfortunately for you, judgy judge, your sin repentance is an inside job. So you wouldn't know either way. You just wouldn't. Well, he would show more of this. You mean I perform the way you want me to perform? That would make you think I'm changed? Thanks for your input. Somebody who was repentant would do these things. Would do these things. Somebody who is repentant becomes this man. Big difference.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, one of the things that happens anytime there's, you know, a fall like you went through the thousands, tens of thousands of people at Hillsong, all the leaders who tracked with you. Yeah. Many of whom are listening, watching.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What do you say to them?

[Carl Lentz]

I love you. I honor the calling that you're in. I would say hold me. With both stories being accurately true. Like, if you are going to hang out on any part of anybody's story, I'd say it's unwise. So keep watching stories unfold. So it's like if you were disappointed in me, completely fair. And I'm so sorry. I'm sorry.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Let's think for a minute about the tens of thousands of people at Hillsong New York. You run into somebody, you're in New York, they're like, this happened.

[Carl Lentz]

I'm sure it has hundreds of times already.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I'm sure it has. What are those conversations?

[Carl Lentz]

They're always beautiful, Carrie. That's what's crazy to me. And it kills me every time because I. They can barely get words out. I can get barely words out, but I can always get out. I'm so sorry. If I get a chance. When you make amends and Your life isn't this big public profile. It's actually sometimes easier on your soul because there's 10 people that matter to you. And you've done your best. You've done what you can do to make these things right. The rest is on them when you have a bigger platform, bigger world, man. It's a tough thing because I cannot make personal amends. What I can do is be a living amends. So maybe if I've never apologized to. You're part of our church in New Jersey, and I've never got a chance to hug you and say I'm sorry, know that my life represents a lifelong apology and I'm grateful for your trust. Sorry I broke it. I'm grateful that God's so gracious he's going to help you trust again. And that's the only way to hold it. Or else you can't survive, man. I can't. I was gonna. I was gonna die of shame. I was. And God saved me from that. I don't live in shame today. I don't even visit that street. It's a carcass on my wall. I can pick it up anytime. But I am grateful to report that there's work you can do where I don't. It's impossible. It's only akin to my salvation. Experience is the experience I've had with shame. God has helped me come through it. Shame to me is a selfish emotion. If you catch me feeling shame about myself, I'm off track because shame is. I'm bad. I look bad to you. I can't believe what I've done. What good does shame do anybody? Nothing.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So what replaces shame?

[Carl Lentz]

Passion and hope and discipline to grow. Shame is who you were. And feeling bad about what you did

[Carrie Newhoff]

hold you back, freeze you in a moment.

[Carl Lentz]

It's backwards. Hope of becoming a better man every day pulls you out. I can do nothing about what I did and who I was. I can do everything about who I'm becoming right now. And there's so much power right there that it's. It's just so. I love being able to look at people who are shattered and stop. Been there. I've been there. I've been there. I've been there, I've been there, and I'm here right now. I. I got a lot of pain that I had managed, and I will forever. But, my friend, I'm telling you, there's nobody that's going to listen to this that has to live in shame. Nobody. That's a choice. Shame is a choice. When you own that, it makes it hard. People hate that. They push back because they like that victim shield. For me to feel shame about what happened would still mean I'm the most self centered man walking the earth.

[Carrie Newhoff]

For the leader, especially the pastor, church leader, who is where you were a decade ago. Rapid growth. Oh my goodness. I don't know what to do. Or they're sitting on something that it's like that was the last time. Let's take the second part out. Let's just talk about rapid growth.

[Carl Lentz]

Okay?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Because that is a question I'm really interested in. Forget the metaphor you used. But this train that's moving so fast and I don't know how to stop it, they're feeling that. And maybe they're not cheating on their wife right now. They're not. But their thought life is going sideways. They're exhausted, they're preaching. Service seven, service three, it doesn't matter. And again, this happens when there's 75 people in the room or 7,500.

[Carl Lentz]

Such a great point.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It really does. You don't have to be an influential pastor in New York. What's your word to them?

[Carl Lentz]

It's not going to get easier. So if you're hurting now, you'll die in a couple months. That's what I'd say to you. So whatever you're doing that's uncomfortable, figure it out right now. So if there's an area that you're like, man, I just got. If we can just get through this season, here's a common phrase I'll get from guys I love. We're in the middle of this project, man, and I know I'm out of gas, I'm out of fumes, but you just got to get to here. And then I'm going to. And then my brother, you guess how many stories I heard like that in rehab, including my own. I was like, we all do this. I had a beautiful exit strategy is going to work on my terms. I'm going to, I'm going to raise up this guy to take more leadership.

[Carrie Newhoff]

This was your strategy?

[Carl Lentz]

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So you had an escape towards the end.

[Carl Lentz]

100%. But that, that, that was my, that was my duty. It was like, okay, here's how I'm going to fix all this stuff that's broken. I'm going to get everything in such a place where it's great and I'm gonna kind of drift off, get some help, you know, handle this stuff. I just gotta get this stuff settled. And it's a self Sabotaging lie never happens. Cause I, if it would've happened, I would've been fine and still would've been broken because I needed. I now know if it hadn't been that humiliating and that exposing, I probably would have held some lies. Gotta be honest with you. So as much as I hated at the time, if it wasn't that, if that many people didn't leave our life and that many people didn't like just this feeling of like in my worst nightmare, I didn't think it would go as bad as it did. And I don't think it helped people be more honest. By the way, Carrie, I think that if a pastor was watching my life, they were like, if it happened to that guy that bad, imagine what they'll do to me. I'm tucking this thing away deeper and it happened. There are friends that I have that I, they didn't come out with their stuff because I got caught. They buried that thing. Maybe they went away to some counseling. I didn't tell anybody about it. I didn't tell their church. By the way, before you jump on those pastors who fell, we're in the same boat. You know, none of that stuff. It was, you know. And some of that stuff I still manage. I have to manage to keep it healthy because the self righteous bite that I stomached early, I don't stomach that anymore, I'll call it. And that was something that I didn't understand and still doesn't track with me healthy. So I know that it's a legit beef because when I was hurting, I was like, man, it feels really self righteous and hypocritical and judgmental.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I got caught. But you,

[Carl Lentz]

I have time, had time for disappointment, grief. But even then the self righteous tinge of the criticism, I'm going, you, you're, you're talking about us like that. You and I still hold that righteous indignation about that now. I hold in a beautiful way though, because that's not my job. I'm not going to be the corrector of that. But you got yours coming, brother, trust me. So the self righteous thing is a dead giveaway that you're like the most vitriolic critics I've had have either already crumbled or are crumbling as we speak in the background. And they're going to come back someday and they're going to apologize. I'm going to accept it. But the people who are the most pointy, they got the most stuff always.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, probably my biggest takeaway from this is just Radical honesty with yourself, with the people closest to you. And, you know, I look back on my 30s, pre burnout, and, you know, we'll talk about the line in the future. But I hadn't crossed the line whenever the line is. But there was lots of stuff below the line that was just, you know, our culture wasn't healthy. I had people tell me, you're going too hard. This is all gonna collapse. I'm like, I'm better than that.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I'm smarter than that, for sure. I'm stronger than that.

[Carl Lentz]

All day. All day.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And then, you know, my body quit and I went into kind of a rehab. Not officially. And life has never been the same 20 years, years later. And it's a progressive thing. It's not like, oh, now I'm perfect. You don't arrive.

[Carl Lentz]

No.

[Carrie Newhoff]

But it's a more stable foundation than it was. And I'm just challenged personally, Carl. And this is your gift to me and I think to people listening. To be utterly honest with my wife, with my best friend, with my therapist.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Because of all the lies we tell, the lies we tell ourselves are the most deadly.

[Carl Lentz]

That's the person I lied to the most.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Is it?

[Carl Lentz]

That's what I became a cut. I lied to myself. I mean, I've told this story where I told my therapist, why didn't you come clean sooner? I said, I didn't want to hurt anybody. She said, oh, you're a hero. Aren't we all?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, you're a human ministry. We're here.

[Carl Lentz]

And meanwhile, you're hurting everyone every day. You live with a lie. Yeah, but you didn't want to come clean because. And that's when you start realizing, oh, okay, I lied to myself. So part of my radical honest life is out of. There's no other option for me. So if you have spent decades of your life lying, there is no other way but radical honesty. And it's dangerous in the best way. It's like, I just. And I'm in this from my own personal conviction. I take it all the way down to the. To the. To the. To the easy, casual combos. Like, I'm not going to say, see you later, because it's probably not honest,

[Carrie Newhoff]

because you might not.

[Carl Lentz]

I'm going to say, it's been good to see you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

It's that didactic for me, and it has to be.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Carl, this has been such a rich conversation. We've gone a lot of places, and I feel like there's still more to talk about. Maybe we'll do A round two at some point, but thank you. And part of the. I was going to say the joy of having a conversation. This is not joyful for you. It's not joyful for the church. It's not joyful for all the people who have been deeply, deeply hurt. But part of the health of a conversation like this. Well, it's your podcast. You bring the light to the darkness, and I think you've helped us see how it came to be. And, yeah, you clarified a few things, but I'm firmly convinced 99.9% of people who get into ministry, Carl, are doing it because they feel a call from God. They're doing the right thing. They're gonna make a difference.

[Carl Lentz]

100% agree.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And I think most of the time that there is a breach, a fall like you experienced. It's kind of a deer in the headlights with some unhealthy habits and not an excuse. But if we can stop some of this long before it does harm. What a joy. That's the joy.

[Carl Lentz]

Maybe so well said. You were going to ask me about friendships. Oh, yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. Because I actually wanted to answer that question.

[Carrie Newhoff]

We touched on it, but go ahead, because what happened with your friendships when everything collapsed?

[Carl Lentz]

Collapsed. It's a good thing to bring up because I like to tell leaders a couple things. One, if you're the boss of an organization and you think you have friends that don't get impacted by that, you're just being delusional. So I talked a lot about, like, you know, my best friend, he also works for me. I go, okay, cool. Let me just tell you about my experience with that. It's not the same. It will not be the same. I don't care if you knew him since you were 2 years old. If you are the boss, nobody is their normal self around you. They cannot be.

[Carrie Newhoff]

They're not going to tell you 100% of the truth.

[Carl Lentz]

They might, but it just. At the end of the day, you're their employer, so you got to factor that in. That's the first thing. And then with ministry stuff, Carrie, I think there's a couple things I want to say about this because so much I've let a lot of it go, and I speak nebulously sometimes on purpose, but this is a good time because there's a lot of pastors watching. I think I hold it in a beautiful place. I was extraordinarily surprised. I had two best friends in ministry, and I broke that relationship trustwise. And I own that the Reactions definitely surprised me. And I've gotten healthy enough to say it's okay to say that it doesn't matter right or wrong. I just didn't think that I had relationships that would cut people off like that. And.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And your phone stopped ringing.

[Carl Lentz]

I mean, from these particular friends that I loved. Otherwise, people show up for me all day long, and it. Thank God for it, but it's people, you know, it's that. It's that 27 great things and those two. And so those. I learned a lot through. I learned a lot about. I learned a lot about how I want to have friendships in the future. I learned a lot about how to manage expectation now. I learned a lot about my side of the tracks, because that's where. Only way you could not be bitter is if you do the right thing, which is to worry about your role in it. So at the hardest moments, with some of my friendships that I lost, I was taught well enough to know my side of the tracks includes this. And that makes this easier to understand. Doesn't make it right, but I get it. And here's one thing I did learn. So there are people who, when they see a preacher fall, they cannot listen to their sermons. Right? Can't do it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Whole thing's done.

[Carl Lentz]

Now on face value, we all can probably understand that doesn't make any sense logically. But from this angle, here's how I now hold it. Because before I would try to tell people, dude, my sermons are great, like, I preached about Jesus, he didn't fall. I stand by every fricking sermon I've ever preached. Proud of them, honestly, because I did my job, which is to point to the one who can change everybody. And now when people are like, I, you know, I can't listen to that pastor, I was like, I get it. Because here's why there's a one friend who. And I had to. I had to do some work on this, Carrie, because a lot of my relationships in ministry, I was paving a way for somebody else. It's part of my honor was to create space for people, promote people. And a lot of my, you know, outside of the two guys I would say were my best friends, everybody else was my friends. But I. I was cutting ground for them. I was promoting them. I was investing into them. So when those kind of guys didn't show up, that was hard because I was like, you. No way. Like, if anything, be disappointed. But to act like that was something I had to manage, that's on me. But there was a guy who came to preach Me and Laura were at a church, and there's a guy that was probably that one layer away. Like, I. We were very close friends. I gave him our platform. I definitely backed him to the hilt. And this guy never reached out. It was nobody's. This isn't sympathy. I'm just telling you how it was. Never reached out. One time I see him and, you know. And then this guy got up to preach a message. Carrie. About the time in the Old Testament or the New Testament, Paul's preaching. Somebody falls out of a window, and he talks about how we got to be the kind of church that goes and picks that person up. And I'm talking about. And I'm. And Laura was nauseous. I was nauseous. And I wanted to stand up and say, are you kidding me? I don't care about the message. You're my problem. And I went, oh, okay. I will never tell anybody that my messages are good. Got to get through me, because I know how it feels in this moment, what this guy was preaching. Not interested. Because you're a fake, brother. Get out of here. You're a fake. I don't. I can't even hear about Jesus because you bailed on me and my wife, and you're gonna get up there and preach that message in front of us. And it just made. And I went, okay, let me. I'm just being honest. This isn't right. I'm just telling you how I felt. And I looked at my wife and I went, I gotta. I gotta get something good out of this or I'm not gonna be able to make it. And that was the revelation I walked away with, because I get it now.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So that's why people can't listen to your messages, watch your messages, because you let them down. Not everybody, but I understand it.

[Carl Lentz]

And there's people who are like. But before I would have been like, push through that. And now I go, hey, at your own time. Like, I'm telling you, I'm a broken messenger. I get that. But if the thought of my face and what I did, how I betrayed my wife and I betrayed my children, and now I'm going to tell you to go and preach how I was preaching and do all that stuff, and you just can't land it. It's okay, because I can't land it with that guy. I'm not interested in anything he has to say. And I. I don't listen to. There's maybe one or two guys, but that goes for a lot of my friends of that era, like, I don't want to hear them preach. I'm not interested. And that's not judging you. I just also know you. I know my experience with you, too. I let you down and broke your trust. But you. But I'm still human, Laura. And I. My kids, they have to run their own journey. They're. They're. You know, they have to work through

[Carrie Newhoff]

that, to process all of that.

[Carl Lentz]

But that day in church, in this side of the tracks, when it just. I didn't know it was happening, didn't know it was coming, and it just all just happened at one time, and I just thought maybe he'll get up there and preach about, I don't know, restoration or something, whatever. But to preach, that showed me that world is still insane. Absolute.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Because, bro, but does that make you a cynic about the church as a whole?

[Carl Lentz]

No. Because there's nothing like the church. Where else can broken people do great things?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. No. And this is the tension of our age, right? Because you've got the people who are like, see, somebody could listen to this conversation for two hours and go see all mega church pastors are fake.

[Carl Lentz]

Right?

[Carrie Newhoff]

But I know that's not true.

[Carl Lentz]

Not true.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's not true. And yet, maybe there's some who have hurt you. Maybe there's some who've got. I don't know. I'm not interested.

[Carl Lentz]

Here's my takeaway. I wanted to do work so I wouldn't be like that. I want to be able to hear people that I even have been personally hurt by. I still want to be big enough to be able to push through that. Because what's my line? Now we go back to the line again. So, like, my line I told myself on that Sunday was, well, that guy hurt me, so I can no longer listen to him. I'm not comfortable with that line.

[Carrie Newhoff]

That's not who you want to be. No, but it's who you are right now. Now or in that day.

[Carl Lentz]

But that's who I am. So what do I want to do about this? This guy is a fraud. He preached the message he has never even smelt in his life like he has. We got to pick people up off the ground. We can't be ashamed of them. What? That's who you are? Are you kidding me? And then I was like, guess who can't be throwing those stones? This critic. What am I gonna do with this tension? I know I'm wrong, but what do I do with all these feelings? Now I know better. I'm gonna bring them out. I'm Gonna talk about them. I'm gonna bring them into the light. I'm gonna talk to Carrie about. I'm gonna call someone that's wiser. I'm gonna say, it's how I feel. I know it's not right. I gotta get it out as a fraud. And he's not a fraud. He's going through his own stuff. It's like I always tell Lord, I'm going non therapy me for 30 seconds. Give me a break. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Now therapized version.

[Carl Lentz]

And we live in that tension.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I had my heart broken a couple years ago with somebody just shocked that was living a double life and done a lot of work with that person. And I had lots of conversations with that person. And you look back on the body of work and I've talked to other people who were on staff with a senior pastor who quote, fell. And it's such a tension to be managed. But, you know, unless they were con man from day one, then I'm like, yeah, throw the whole thing out. But I learned and grew under some of those leaders and I had a real friendship with this person and I didn't know and I tried to be there for him and that sort of thing. And when it all fell apart, but you look back and it's like, no, some of those things I learned are actually true and they're good. And what he did is despicable.

[Carl Lentz]

Two things can't be true.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's such a thing thing. And that's, you know, I think even naming the tension.

[Carl Lentz]

Yes.

[Carrie Newhoff]

That we're in. Because the headlines are always one way or the other.

[Carl Lentz]

Yes.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's what you were feeling. It's like, d listen to anything and that guy's a free.

[Carl Lentz]

Here's where I landed with that car. I. I don't want that. I want people to listen to what I preached and believe it. Therefore, if that's true, I cannot hold this against this guy like that. I'm not there yet.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Mm, mm.

[Carl Lentz]

I'm working on it. That one stung and I'm not satisfied. So I'm gonna get to the place where I can listen to a sermon from someone who has not lined up how I want em to line up and still be able to hear God do it. So if I want someone else to do that, I gotta go first.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Okay. Anybody who's not a pastor who's had church hurt, listen up. Cause this is bigger than just us.

[Carl Lentz]

What am I robbing myself of? If that's my line, that's what I tell People all the time. Like, I can never go back to church because I said quit. Cool. Cool. What's it gonna cost you to trust again? What's it gonna cost you to not trust again? Which one are you more comfortable with?

[Carrie Newhoff]

And that's the journey. It is so easy to be a cynic, and I have to fight it. If not daily, weekly. But I wanna be the guy who hopes again, trusts again, believes again. Because, dude, that's the gospel.

[Carl Lentz]

It's the gospel, Carrie. It's the woman that's been betrayed by a husband. I will never trust a man again. She's not wrong. She's not crazy.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No.

[Carl Lentz]

And she'll never. What else might be lost with that? Just make sure you want to see it across the board. And I. That's how I gauge everything. Like, if I take this one moment and I would stretch it across my life, Am I comfortable with that? Well, I live that life. I had a bunch of good stuff, but I had moments where I didn't think it were going to bleed over. They all bleed over. I can't. They. They. They're gonna bleed over. I would tell the amazing pastors that listen to you, and they should be, I think you're one of the most reasonable, objective, kind, wise people on the market, and I'm grateful for you. I would say, consider teaching people how to think more, but that would require you to be thinking correctly. And the number one place of dysfunctional thinking in ministry is at the top of the top of the.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, we live in an age where a lot of people want to tell you what to think.

[Carl Lentz]

It's the worst.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You gotta learn how to think. Your colleague across the city, Tim Keller, did such a beautiful job of that.

[Carl Lentz]

Guess who was always awesome to me? Tim Keller.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Was he always awesome to you?

[Carl Lentz]

I sent an email to every pastor in New York when I got there. Do you know which one wrote me back? Tim Keller. Every pastor trying to do my ecumenical duty. I don't want to be. You know, there's already. We're already getting criticism. I haven't even started yet. Carrie, look at. These guys are going to come in, they're going to take our sheep. I remember thinking, we take your sheep. That's a weird thing to say anyway, but I'm going to reach out. I'm going to. I'm going to do this. Tim Keller. Carl, come see me at my office. I sat having the most beautiful conversation, started a beautiful relationship with him. But it's always funny, you know, some of these guys, like Craig, Tim you see what they've done and they're consistent throughout the board. The guys didn't write me back.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, the behind the scenes is the same as the on camera and often even a little more delightful than you'd suspect.

[Carl Lentz]

That is a great way to put

[Carrie Newhoff]

that, you know, that you can see it on and it's like, oh, that was interesting in the mess. But then you meet the guy and it's like, very impressed. Integrity.

[Carl Lentz]

Integrity.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Which is what, if you look at the definition of that word, this process over the last five, six years for you, five, I guess, has been reintegrating what God created in you.

[Carl Lentz]

Integrity, integrity, integrity. You're integrating it. My definition of integrity is doing what I say, when I say I'm going to do it every single time. That is it. Take the moral out of it. Take the like. Carl, do you live with integrity? Yes. And I'm becoming a man of integrity more and more every day. So did I do what I said when I said I was going to do it every time? And when I don't, I remain a man of integrity when I own it and I bring it back into alignment to act like there's a man that has this every day. I think the life of integrity is constant adjustment. Constant, constant, constant, constant. So for me, I was had integrity got out of alignment and kept on going out of alignment. Imagine if that worked with your spine like that. I now, I now know integrity is like this every day. Chiropractic. Yeah. Okay. Pretty great day this is. I, I, I, I showed up at 10:15 and I told Cara I'd be there at 10. Yeah, Carrie, I'm sorry. No, you were there early and I, I'm sorry that I was not here when I said I would. Forgive me. That's not who I am. Let me know how that's impacted you so I can seek to make it right. Having said that, moving forward, I'm gonna be on time. Boom. Just like that's integrity. Integrity is not perfection. Integrity is consistency about exactly what you said, who you said you were, when you said you want to do it. That's integrity.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, you could have hidden for the rest of your life just disappeared. And it's not perfect. And what happened is horrific and yet not beyond the grace of God. And somehow I don't know how this all bundles together in the story we read about every morning in the scriptures. And your willingness. Cause I wondered about this when I was setting up. It's like you've been talking about this publicly for a couple of years. And I waited a couple years before

[Carl Lentz]

I had you lost. Not like this, though. Not like this, no. I'm at a place now where me and Laura made a decision to. I'm not apologizing. I'm not living that. That. That life of, you know, I. There's an appropriate time to. To be more passive. I felt like it was appropriate. The time's over. Yeah. And we're going to be who we are. And we're excited, we're hopeful. God's redeeming our lives. We're people who are on a constant journey. I'm not restored. I will be on a journey of restoration until the day I see you in heaven. Yeah. So is he restored? No, man, you're not either. It's called sanctification.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yes, it is. That is my journey.

[Carl Lentz]

Sanctification, the process of being made that which we cannot be made on our own by the one who made us. I'm up for that. That's our story. So I'm gonna stand on that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, I think about this often. It was a quippen seminary. I was at the back of a class. We were listening to some lecture, and it was on the eschatology of wholeness or something like that. And it was on wholeness. And my systematics professor, Ian Nichol, leaned over and whispered in my ear, wholeness is an eschatological concept. In other words, it's going to happen in heaven. And he's right.

[Carl Lentz]

Yes.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And in the meantime, what I'm grateful for is your willingness to share the story. The good, the bad, and the ugly. We're all a work in progress. And I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much.

[Carl Lentz]

Thank you. And you told me, I want to give you this answer, and I know it said, this is Joe Rogan esque in length and which is a credit to you. You said, do, do, do I believe anything then that I no longer believe now?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

In a leadership context. I want to say this to the pastors that listen to you. I used to believe that being a strong leader was. Was. Was it? I no longer believe that. I believe being a kind leader is the most explosive attribute any church could ever have in a leader, really, Because a kind leader will be strong, but it's not a guarantee that a strong leader will ever be kind. And it's kindness that is the conduit for this gospel, whether people like it or not. These mean, judgy people like, do your TikTok videos. Doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is the kindness of God that leads us to become better people. And now I look at leadership so differently. I'm like, I'm strong. Yeah. But am I kind of. Kindness is longevity. Kindness will get you to 80 with a smile. Kindness will get you to look at a congregation that bites you as much as they bless you and still go, this is what I signed up for. Strength. Strength will get you eight services. Strength will get you a million saved. Strength will get you some battles won on a dark alley with some demons. Kindness will get you a life you're proud of.

[Carrie Newhoff]

That's the Holy Spirit. That's what I believe it is. I want my life more and more to be reflective of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's the only tangible evidence I have. And the best arbiter of that is my wife.

[Carl Lentz]

Same.

[Carrie Newhoff]

If I'm not kind to Tony, if I'm not gentle, peaceful. And she's like, man, you're not kind today. I'm like,

[Carl Lentz]

all right, here we go. The other day, she goes, you wouldn't talk to somebody. I would. Don't say incense. I'm sorry. You're right. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. Why would I talk to you? Less kind than a person that I

[Carrie Newhoff]

don't care about like that. Exactly.

[Carl Lentz]

My wife. My bad.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Target store. You're nicer to the clerk at the Target store than you are to your wife. Like, come on. I can do better. But that's the Holy Spirit at work. Because I'm a degenerate being regenerated, Carl. And I think that's why I have empathy for what's happening in the church today.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Not justification, just empathy for it.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah. You handle this carry the way everybody should with your brain. I hear you talk, and it's so why. Why people are drawn to you is because you know everyone else is being swayed by feeling stuff and that. But you bring. Even the way you have handled our relationship and even this conversation, it's not easy. It's not hard. It's just facts. These are what the metrics say. This is where that's going to lead you. And people are leaning into that because we live in a world right now where a pastor is going to get on his podcast and go, here's. Here's five things that are sin.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah.

[Carl Lentz]

Really, bro? Like that your idea? I'm just going to tell you what the word says, Carl. The way you read the word. Well, the Bible says, according to your interpretation, pastors are too insecure to say these things. They say, this is the way it is.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I've always tried to be very careful when I speak for God, even when we're doing. Especially when we were doing capital campaigns. Lord Jesus, God didn't tell me this. I think it's a good idea now if I'm preaching Genesis 1 or, you know, the Beatitudes, God said, that's clear. In the meantime, this is what I think. Yeah, I could be wrong, right?

[Carl Lentz]

I could be wrong. I'm gonna call my podcast. Hi, this is Carl and Laura Lantz. Our podcast called we could be wrong, but we're probably not.

[Carrie Newhoff]

We could be wrong, and there is that leader. It's like, yeah, we could be wrong,

[Carl Lentz]

but there's a couple outliers. And I think, to me, it is a preference. I'm with you, though. My most comfortable place to live is here's what I think. If it ends up that I did hear from God, that'll be evident.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yes.

[Carl Lentz]

But as other guys, I know they use the God said stuff, and I respect this. Cool. My personal preference is I just know me.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I know me too.

[Carl Lentz]

And so if I heard from God, let me do the heavy lifting so I can give him the glory. If it was him, but let me own it as it was me. If it doesn't go well, now, people are gonna question God. So I personally stay away. But I'm okay if other people, hey, more power to you. My safest posture is to say, carrie, this is what I think. And then two years later, hey, by

[Carrie Newhoff]

the way, I think I was wrong.

[Carl Lentz]

Or I think the Holy Spirit kind of dropped that in my ear. Two years after we've seen the fruit of it. By the way, that wasn't just my idea. That is beautiful, but I'd rather let you ask me, was that a supernatural idea? Might have been. Well.

[Carrie Newhoff]

And discernment goes beyond just leader. Yeah, it really does.

[Carl Lentz]

Carl. Thank you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Wish I didn't have to catch a flight.

[Carl Lentz]

Thank you for having me.

[Carrie Newhoff]

This was awesome, man. Thank you so much. Lights on podcast, you highly recommend.

[Carl Lentz]

Yeah, thank you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Website or anything else you want to direct people to.

[Carl Lentz]

Hello. At Carl and Laura Lent. Com, I believe, and I'd love to hear from anybody. Thank you for having me. Thank you for what you do.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Thank you, sir. Well, that was the false ending to the podcast, but Carl and I kind of leaned back, and we're going to keep it rolling because I want every pastor to hear what Carl said because it meant a lot to me. Meant a lot to me.

[Carl Lentz]

Carl.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Thank you. Was that okay?

[Carl Lentz]

My favorite conversation I've had in five years, Carrie. That's why I was so excited, because I. I love how I feel today. And it's like, it's not lost on me that my deepest need and heart is to love the pastors, that I made their life harder, and that's what I did for every good pastor out there. The moment I fell, they had to deal with 97 more suspicions. So my silent prayer has been. Are we still recording?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Good. No, keep going.

[Carl Lentz]

No, my silent prayer, prayers. Let. Let me. Let me get some light off the board for these guys. Good. You know, let me. Let me live this life where they. When they had to defend or justify their own life because of what I. They can now say. All. Also that guy, though. Look at what God's grace, like, that's. That's my goal, because I can't. I can't. I carry that, you know, And I know I did that for so many people I love. I just. I hate that. And that's something I've had to give to God, and he's giving it back to me in this way, which is. Here's how you're. You know, here's how I can do the best I can. So for all the. I just. I just. That was hard for me, making it harder for amazing pastors. And I'm grateful to be able to talk to the people that listen to your body, you know, because, wow, they're all. They're all in the trenches, and I. And for as much good as I did, you know, when we did a lot of good, there's some shots that I. I brought the body, and I own that, and I'm sorry about that. And I can't change it, but I can live a different life, you know, and that's my hope.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Thank you. It's my hope, too. I. I still want to believe

[Carl Lentz]

that

[Carrie Newhoff]

the church is the instrument of Jesus in God. And when these things happen, it just gets harder and harder for more and more people to believe that. And I think today you gave us an insight into the interior journey of how that happens. And I think it's wrong, it's deadly, it's destructive, but it's not intentional. And I think that's what people don't realize. I think that's what people don't realize, Carl.

[Carl Lentz]

I think that's what I've been trying to say for a long time.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, you really helped me see that. And I was hoping when you said. When we talked about,

[Carl Lentz]

how could you

[Carrie Newhoff]

preach while that was going on, I did not expect that answer. And it made me think, oh, yeah, that must be how it is. That must be how it is. And I'm just glad you're getting healed.

[Carl Lentz]

Thank you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I am. And I'm happy for you and Laura and your kids. Oh, man. So that's the conversation with Carl Lentz. I hope it was helpful. You know, this is a tough season in the church and a tough season because I really do believe that the church is Jesus chosen instrument. And I really believe that very sinful people like you and I are the leaders that God appoints to do the work. And that 99.999% of us get into it for the right reasons. And trying to figure out how to do this well and to be a good husband and a good father and a good leader and a good boss and a good pastor, it's just really, really hard. So thank you for hanging in there for the whole conversation, whether you're watching or listening today. If you want show notes, you can get [e-mail] you can set up a free account. They're all there. We have some good conversations that are a little more nuanced and maybe engage the brain a little bit more than you would find sometimes online. If you're watching, on YouTube, Spotify, if you're listening, give us a follow. Subscribe, let us know what you think. I hope this was ultimately a healing conversation. Coming up on the podcast, we got a number of great conversations. We got Arthur Brooks. Man, I enjoyed that. We've got Katie Cole. We're going to talk about why women are leaving the church. We're going to talk about dating with JJ and Kate Tomlin. And Chelsea Smith is also coming up to talk about marriage and relationships. I just love having these authentic conversations. I hope they help you and maybe share this with your team. Text it to a friend and we'll see you next time on the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for your comments and for getting the word out about this podcast. We really appreciate hopefully long, nuanced conversations like this that in the end make the church better, make you better.