CNLP 799 | Christine Caine: The Real Reasons Women Are Done With Church

Summary

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Podcast Summary: CNLP 799 | Christine Caine: The Real Reasons Women Are Done With Church

Podcast: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
Episode: 799
Date: April 21, 2026
Guests: Carey Nieuwhof (Host), Christine Caine (Guest)

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Episode Overview

In this rich and candid episode, Carey Nieuwhof speaks with Christine Caine—global speaker, author, activist, and founder of A21 and Propel Women—about why women are leaving the church. Their conversation diverges from typical leadership topics to address deep currents in today's culture, faith, leadership, therapy, and the generational and gender shifts shaping the Church's future. Christine turns 60 this year and shares openly about personal flourishing, calling, pruning, and the importance of not giving up in later life or leadership. The episode brims with practical insights for church leaders, hope for flourishing at any stage, and challenges to the status quo in how women are valued, mentored, and released in ministry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Christine's 60th Year: Embracing New Adventures and Flourishing

• Christine celebrates turning 60 by intentionally doing 60 things she’s never done before, from seeing the Northern Lights to eating Whataburger ([02:27], [03:22]).
• She rejects societal pressure on women to hide their age:

  “I could be dead, but I'm 60. And by God's grace, I feel healthy and strong, and I'm doing 60 things that I've never done before for my 60th year…” — Christine Caine ([02:54])

2. The Why Behind Women Leaving the Church

• The exodus is occurring across ages—from Gen Z to Boomers; not just young women.
• For older women, becoming empty nesters often leads to the question: “Now what is there for me to do?” leading many to quietly exit church life ([04:58]).
• Christine emphasizes the scriptural mandate to finish strong:

  “This is not the time for us to be being sort of selfish and tapping out because we have a generation that so desperately needs us…” — Christine Caine ([05:42])

• There’s a generational gap: younger women lack mentors in the 40-50 bracket:

  “Where are the 40 to 45, you know, 38 to 45, 50, going, this is how you pursue Jesus. This is what you're serving in church now?” — Christine Caine ([07:53])

3. Purpose, Not Titles: The Real Issue for Women in Church

• The discussion on women’s roles often devolves into a debate on titles (complementarian vs. egalitarian), missing the larger point about purpose ([09:37]).
• Christine refocuses the issue:

  “The issue has more to do with purpose, more than job title. Are we encouraging women to fulfill their God-given purpose?” — Christine Caine ([09:37])

• She highlights the diversity of women's gifts globally and the need to see beyond North American, evangelical frameworks ([11:51]).

4. Consumer Christianity and Volunteerism

• Carey and Christine wonder if the trend of women leaving reflects consumer Christianity—‘What’s in it for me?’ vs. ‘What can I bring?’ ([13:23]).
• Christine draws a distinction between Western consumer attitudes and the realities of church in other parts of the world:

  “In a lot of other contexts...there’s nothing in it for you. It’s about what you could do.” — Christine Caine ([13:23])

5. Influencer Culture & Spiritual Gifts

• Christine notes the tendency to elevate platform or influencer gifts, neglecting “modest” spiritual gifts like hospitality, administration, etc. ([17:49]).
• She urges a biblical framework for gifts and service and makes a plea to value all contributions.

6. Visibility, Platforming, and Valuing Women

• Lack of visibility, platform, and intentional leadership development keeps women away. Christine references Luke 8, where women financially supported Jesus’ ministry, as a biblical precedent for success and active participation ([21:50]).

• She shares a story about a woman massively underutilized in her church despite extensive executive experience ([25:09]) and identifies ignorance and lack of intentionality—not always theology—as the root problem.

  “It's truly the lack of dignity and the lack of value.” — Christine Caine ([25:11])

7. Christine’s Own Journey: Persevering Amid Setbacks and Sexism

• Christine explains her resilience as rooted in God’s grace and not being derailed by others’ ‘fallen human nature.’ She describes being the sole woman in many leadership spaces, brushed off as ‘the best man for the job,’ and choosing not to waste life doing the job of the Holy Spirit in correcting others ([32:38], [36:34]):

  “If my future in God is dependent on somebody else’s sanctification, I am never ever going to fulfill my God-given destiny…” — Christine Caine ([33:53])

8. The Key to Longevity and Energy: Joy, Surrender, and the Holy Spirit

• Christine testifies that as she ages, life with God becomes more vibrant, not less ([43:05]).
• Her secret? Regularly casting burdens on Jesus, confessional prayer, careful media consumption, and remembering the power of the Holy Spirit ([43:55], [51:01]).

  “I have to put them on shoulders that are bigger than mine… that’s only Jesus’ shoulders.” — Christine Caine ([43:55])

9. Cultural Critique: Therapy, Labels, and Work

• Christine affirms therapy’s value but warns against the over-spiritualizing of therapy and diagnostic labels ("narcissist," "toxic") in Christian culture, replacing seeking God’s voice ([51:01], [53:43]).
• She expresses concern about confusing “serving” with “being paid for a job” and about victim and passivity narratives that rob people of the joy of contribution and hard work ([53:43], [59:12]).

10. Flourishing Through Pruning

• Pruning is necessary for flourishing. Christine reflects on the pain and necessity of ongoing pruning—letting go of unnecessary or even fruitful branches to bear more fruit, and resisting the urge to "cruise" in later years ([63:08]).

  “The hardest thing is the stuff that’s bearing fruit. God's got to reveal what that is…” — Christine Caine ([64:40])

• She uses the biblical example of Hezekiah’s self-centeredness and Joshua’s failure to raise up a next generation as cautionary tales for leaders ([71:51], [73:21]).

  “Ultimately...whether the next generation knows Jesus or not...that's actually what matters.” — Christine Caine ([73:21])

11. A Final Charge to All Generations

• Christine addresses victims of trauma: “The end goal is flourishing, not just surviving. You can thrive…” ([79:56]).
• She closes with a call for older leaders not to check out but to finish strong and pass the baton of faith to the next generation.

  “Please, our generation needs you to not stop. We need to continue.” — Christine Caine ([81:29])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If you are going to just spend your one and only life trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives, you're going to be so disappointed. You will deconstruct, you will walk away." — Christine Caine ([36:34])
• “The more I commit to the pruning process, as painful as it is… I have not come this far to only come this far.” — Christine Caine ([67:56])
• “Your value, your significance, your security should never come from those things. But you should be producing fruit until you cross the finish line.” — Christine Caine ([66:34])
• “Death is the ultimate statistic. One out of one will die. So… there is nothing. It's an interesting feeling going, oh, I am the spiritual mother now. I am the adult in the room. This is really scary.” — Christine Caine ([78:45])

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Important Timestamps

• [02:27]–[03:22] Christine’s 60th year adventures
• [04:58]–[11:51] Diagnostic on why women are leaving church; generational gaps; purpose over titles
• [13:23]–[17:49] Consumer Christianity & Volunteerism; influencer culture and spiritual gifts
• [21:50]–[29:35] Valuing women; visibility; implicit bias stories; global perspectives
• [32:38]–[39:41] Christine’s journey; obstacles; grace; perseverance
• [43:05]–[53:43] On flourishing, the power of the Holy Spirit, and critique of Christian-therapeutic culture
• [59:12]–[66:27] Satisfaction in hard work; passivity in leadership; pruning and flourishing
• [71:51]–[73:21] Hezekiah Syndrome; legacy; baton passing to the next generation
• [79:28]–[81:29] Final encouragement to flourish and step into your God-given calling

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Takeaways for Church Leaders

• Audit where women are visible and contributing at all levels of your church.
• Build intentional pipelines for women’s leadership development—not just roles, but long-term flourishing.
• Refocus the conversation around purpose, calling, and the breadth of spiritual gifts.
• Lead by finishing well, modeling joy and resilience, and mentoring the next generation at every stage.
• Stay vigilant about the language and narratives your church culture adopts regarding victimhood and therapy while never diminishing the value of seeking help.
• Embrace pruning as part of healthy spiritual, organizational, and personal growth for continual fruitfulness.

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For more:
Christine’s book The Faith to Flourish and resources at Propel Women.
Connect with her on Instagram or at her ministry platforms.

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Quotable Close:
“I have not come this far to only come this far.” — Christine Caine ([67:56])

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Transcript

[Christine Cain]

The Art of Leadership Network. Apparently they didn't have the Billy Graham rule because Jesus was a single man traveling. And there was Joanna, the wife of Chooser that was. She's obviously a married woman with means that traveled as part of his preaching team that funded his ministry out of her own means along with many other women. The scripture says in Luke 8. 3. So I'm saying they were obviously successful, financially independent women of generosity that funded the mission of Jesus as he traveled. So there is room for all of them.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Hey. Today Christine Cain is on the pod and my goodness, we end up talking about all these things that we weren't planning on talking about, including why women are leaving the church, why you shouldn't do the job of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives. That was powerful. It's a commentary on Cancel culture and kind of the frail moment we're in right now as a culture where we don't tolerate anything. We talk about the limits of therapy and why pruning is the key to flourishing. She turned 60 this year. I can say that because she talks all about it. What do you need to do at this point in life to be flourishing? So we talk about all of that. Hey, if you're new to this podcast, welcome. And if you're a regular listener, Christine and I were talking before we hit record about all the next gen leaders that watch and follow this podcast. We're really glad that you're here. And if you haven't yet, hit the follow button or subscribe button wherever you're watching or listening. It would be a lot to me. It would mean a lot to me if you would do that. So I would love to have you do that. Christine Cain is a speaker and activist, bestselling author who awakens people globally to discover their God given purpose for Jesus. Christine and her husband Nick founded A21, a global anti human trafficking organization. And she also founded Propel Women, an initiative that activates women to follow Jesus wholeheartedly and live out their God given purpose. And now to my conversation with Christine Cain. Chris, I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome back.

[Christine Cain]

Hey Carrie, it is my honor. I'm kind of laughing because I think we had the conversation before the conversation.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, we did. We were talking about like, you've got a milestone year. I had mine last year. So I never ask a woman her age, but you've been pretty public about it.

[Christine Cain]

Yes, I have the big six. You know, I'm celebrating all year. Cause I'm like, you don't get to 60 and just celebrate one day. I'm having all 365 days are committed to my 60th.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Good for you. Good for you. So this is not like this big foreboding thing for you, is it?

[Christine Cain]

Oh, quite the contrary. I mean, you know, it's so fascinating to me how sort of historically and really women feel really weird about their age. I'm like, y'.

[Carrie Newhoff]

All.

[Christine Cain]

I mean, I could be dead, but I'm 60. I'm 60. And by God's grace, I. I feel, you know, healthy and strong, and I'm doing 60 things that I've never done before for my 60th year, that could be anything. Like, you know, last week I went to Alaska to see the northern lights and slept in an igloo. But also I ate Whataburger for the first time instead of, like, in and out.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Actually, that's pretty epic, isn't it? Whataburger.

[Christine Cain]

That's it. So in my life, it's going to be, like, 60. It could be just ordering something I've never ordered, you know, going somewhere I've never gone. But, you know, because a lot of people trying to get to our age and get into this rut, and I'm like, no, no, no. I am, like, very willfully choosing to do 60 things I've never done before. Like, it's good for you.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I think John Maxwell, I hope to have him back on the show this year. He's got a similar birthday routine where he does, like, really exciting things for his birthday. Good for you. Good for you. You know what? And they say 60 is a new 40. Or at least they told me that to make me feel better. I don't know. 60 is the new 40.

[Christine Cain]

Make us feel better, mate. Like, who wants to be 40 again? I want. I just think 60.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, but there is greater health. Like, we have greater lifespan and greater health span now. So I think, you know, I think back to my childhood. I think I've said this before, but I look at some of the pictures and I realize, oh, those people growing up in my church with white hair and walkers were in their 50s and 60s. And, yeah, it's just changed life for some of us. You know, if you live in particular zip codes or countries has gone better than elsewhere. But, you know, you and I were talking, and this was the conversation before the conversation. You were saying, what are you doing about women leaving the church? Because. And thank you for listening to the podcast. I am blown away by who listens to this and you said, I would love to give my theories about what's going on. And we also talked about a missing generation or you talked about a missing generation. So I'm just gonna stop talking and let you comment on that.

[Christine Cain]

Well, no, you know, I mean, obviously I've been involved with women's ministry of sorts. Anything from even when I was with young people, young women, when I was a youth pastor and youth leader, and then all the way through what I do with Propel now. So we are really looking at the data at Propel. So I'm looking at the demographic of like the Gen Z girls. You know, of course we've got all the young men coming back to church and then where are the women? Lots of theories about. But also the thing that I don't think that we need to skip over in the data is that there's women my age too that are really leaving the church. What's happening is they're becoming empty nesters and maybe younger than me. And maybe they were like, I'm in it, got my kids through, launched my kids. Now what is there for me to do? And the issue is if there is nothing for them to do, they're like, me and Jesus are okay, I can read the Bible for myself. I've done enough Bible studies. Why do I really need to be there? So part of me being 60, writing, flourishing, yes, always. I will write for the young people, but it's also for my generation to go, oh, you're not supposed to tap out at this point. It's not like, well, I've done it really well for 40 years I've been at church, I raised my kids. Now I deserve whatever that means, you know, whatever, to go sit on the lake, look at a tree, you know, But I'm going, yes, you could do all those things. But actually the mandate from scripture is that we're supposed to run our race and finish our course. This is not the time for us to be being sort of selfish and tapping out because we have a generation that so desperately needs us and needs us to finish well and needs us to finish strong. You know, in this last five year period, many of the people that I personally know that have not finished their race well were older than me. So this is not the time for me to take my foot off the brake and go, oh, I could just tap out and do whatever I want. I haven't come this far to only come this far. I want to run my race and finish my course. And then of course there's a Generation sort of under me. A lot of the, some of the millennial generation that may be in their late 30s, in their 40s, that either, you know, for whatever reason and through disappointment and disillusionment or just tapping out, have either deconverted, deconstructed, I mean, use whatever word. So suddenly I was thinking this in light of my daughters who are 20 and 24. When I was 40 and I was a youth leader and running a youth movement, I was that role model for a lot of the 20 year olds. You know, that was my role in youth ministry. But now there's like this major gap. There's this major gap where my girls are like, mom, who do I look to in that age?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, who's 40, 45, that I can look up to as a mentor?

[Christine Cain]

Influen their 20s. But I mean, where are the 40 to 45, you know, 38 to 45, 50, going, this is how you pursue Jesus. This is what you're serving in church now? I'm not saying they're not there, of course, but I am going, there's a, yeah, there's a gap. There's a void. And I think I can tell, you know, I mean, Kerry, I spoke at Passion just a few weeks ago. And so, you know, you've got tens of thousands of young people that still listen to me. Like, that doesn't make any natural sense. I'm not even cool. I have like, no tattoos, I can't sing. Like, I would never win, you know, America's Got Talent or the Voice. I've got nothing going for me but Jesus. Like, so that's it. But what I think they've seen maybe is someone that's walked with the Lord for 40 years and certainly not perfectly has, you know, but I've always shared my story openly. But I think they're looking. Are there women that are going to finish their course still passionately in love with Jesus, still in it, like still in this adventure, and saying to them, there is a better, this is Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and you can do this to the end. So I kind of am really nutting through a lot of that. I've been listening to some of the things you've been saying about, which is all true. You know, younger women have opportunities in the marketplace. Where are those opportunities in church? And I think with Propel, we're really looking at those questions too and saying, you know, whether you are from a complementarian background or an egalitarian background, that to me is not the conversation because I Think women could fulfill their purpose within the conversation?

[Carrie Newhoff]

Women are on both sides of it.

[Christine Cain]

Yeah, definitely.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's not just men.

[Christine Cain]

And I serve all women on all sides of that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Same here.

[Christine Cain]

On all sides.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Same here.

[Christine Cain]

So I think the issue has more to do with purpose, more than job title. And so I think for me, the bigger conversation has got to be around can a. Are we encouraging women to fulfill their God given purpose? And are our churches having those conversations that are enabling our women? Because I think whichever side of the egalitarian, complementarian sort of line you're on, within both contexts, women can fulfill their purpose. And so I think we've made the conversation a little bit too much about title and position rather than purpose. And you know, I work as, you know, Nick and I travel the world with a 21. We've planted churches all over the world. So in many countries that I work in, women will never, not in my lifetime, be in any kind of egalitarian context. Does that mean they can't serve God? Does that mean they can't fulfill God? I think of countries, you know, where there's the persecuted church countries where women certainly are not afforded the same opportunities that we have here in America and in a lot of the West. So how do those women, Is the gospel still true for them? How do they fulfill, what difference can Jesus make for them? How can we help churches in those contexts help their women fulfill their God given purpose? So I think we can bring some of that. I've had lots of roundtables where we've brought in women from Africa and Asia and South America. And I've had those women talk to American women and Western women or women that are in the Western context and say, okay, I think maybe we should actually think about the conversation we're having, the kind of questions that we're asking. Because even some of the things we're talking about only really pertain to women that are of a certain socioeconomic demographic, that are in a particular culture and that have certain rights, legal rights, opportunities. Well, the gospel is for all people everywhere. So we've gotta actually even enlarge the conversation we're having about women to not only be about North American women in an evangelical context. Cause that probably maybe represents what, less than 5% of the global church. So I think we need to have,

[Carrie Newhoff]

which we often forget.

[Christine Cain]

There's a lot more women that are, you know, global. So I'm always looking at this through the lens of the global church. And of course everyone knows that I'm all about moving the ball down the field, you know, you know, whether the work that we've been able to do with a 21 and rescuing the victims of human trafficking, or I'm a teaching pastor at Mariners Church in Orange county with Pastor Eric Geiger. And then also obviously I preach and teach around the world. So, you know, I think you could fulfill your God given purpose in those contexts. But we've got to make sure we're asking the right questions. Because it's not just a simple, well, if we just give everyone positions and titles, they'll stay in church. Cause I'm like, there's a lot of countries where that's not even an option, and there's a lot of denominations that that's not an option. So does that mean a woman can't serve?

[Carrie Newhoff]

You know, one of the things the Barna data shows, David Kinnaman talked about this in a previous episode, but it was women are exiting, and they're exiting across all demographics from Gen Z right through to boomers. Boomers are not coming back to church after Covid. And you know, I think the way David phrased it is they've retired from work and they're retiring from church. And then women volunteerism is also down. And so I guess one of the questions is, do you think this is a little bit. I haven't asked this on the podcast before, but I'm just curious. And if you don't think it is, that's fine. But do you think this is consumer Christianity coming home to Rooster? It's like, what's in it for me rather than what do I bring?

[Christine Cain]

I think to this degree. And again, you know, you and I need to have 10 conversations because I think that conversation can be had on all fronts that, you know, I listen to multiple podcasts and I obviously talk to people all the time. And it's so funny, the conversations here. And again, I'm talking in a North American context. It's a lot more of what's in it for me. Now in a lot of other contexts that I serve in around the world, that wouldn't even be an option because really there's nothing in it for you. So that's the given. The given is that you're entering and there's nothing in it for you. It's about what you could do. And I was listening to a particular conversation last night and it was all, well, you know, serving at church or doing this, what's really in it for me or my gifts or my talents. Now there is a degree of truth to all of that. Absolutely. God's given us gifts. Scripture is full of that. To serve his body, for the building up of the body. But when it becomes all about my gift, my talent, now there's a fine line that crosses, that becomes, it's not about serving the church anymore. It becomes about my gift being maximized

[Carrie Newhoff]

or me expressing myself.

[Christine Cain]

That's the thing. And I think that's the bigger conversation that even when we're talking about influencer culture. And I love the conversation you had with the two young Gen Z guys the other day.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, Luke Lafevere and Daniel McLeod.

[Christine Cain]

And there was some great conversations the other week about, you know, well, then how do churches utilize those gifts? And there's two sides to that as well. Because the other side is whoever you are that's coming into church life. There's always a proving period. We all have to go through different classes and to prove our commitment and to be sowing and to be giving and to be part of the community life of the church. It's not like just because I'm a. I've got a speaking gift. Suddenly I came into my church and my pastor said, you're gonna go on the pulpit because you're Christine Cain. And so, I mean, I've gotta be like every other person that comes through church. I'm gonna go through, you know, not our new believer classes, but our membership classes. And I'm gonna go through just like everybody else. Why wouldn't I. Why wouldn't I be serving and saying, I will do whatever? Because that's actually gotta be the attitude of a Christian. And I think because we have the luxury and in more of our context to go, how can my gift be utilized? Or, you know, because I have a lot of influence in this field. Well, then, because I may be a great communicator in a social media context, it does not mean I'm called by God to be a pastor or a preacher or, you know, a teacher or an apostle or the, you know, the 5. Whatever you believe about the Ephesians 4 Ministry gifts or that I've been given certain ministry gifts out of Romans or 2 Peter for the building of the church. So I think even the bigger conversation has gotta be okay. When we're talking about social media, when we're talking about influencer, every Christian is an influencer. Cause every Christian has influence. I mean, that's the bottom line. If you're a Christian, you have influence. So I think then we need to draw categories and go, what do we actually mean when we're saying that and what does it mean to serve the body of Christ within the context of the local church? And God calls people and he sets every member in place. So what does that mean? And then what does it mean to be a witness for Christ online? In the same way that you're a witness for Christ when you were a lawyer? Or that when I was working in the corporate world, you know, is a Christian social media influencer the same as well, I'm a lawyer that happens to be a Christian as well, therefore I have influence in my workplace. I'm a teacher that happens to be a Christian, therefore I have influence in my workplace. I just think to just slot categories and go, well, because you can do this here means you're automatically gonna do this on a platform without looking at the ministry component that we're called. Actually, we're ministers of the gospel if you're called into that kind of local church work. And I'm thinking the same thing for women. God sets every member in place. And there are ministry gifts, there are other gifts of hospitality. Yeah, all the other gifts that are mentioned in Romans and Corinthians. So I think that we've elevated one gift, maybe like the influencer gift or something that's not even actually listed in the Bible. And we need to look at the other 20 gifts and go, okay, these are the 20 gifts that God himself has given to the church.

[Carrie Newhoff]

How many of them are pretty modest?

[Christine Cain]

Well, that's what I mean from hospitality admin.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Hospitality.

[Christine Cain]

And why are we not to the same category and saying, where can we all serve? They should actually be give. Because they're gifts that God gave, not gifts that sort of we can make and we publicize. I think the conversation has to come within the context of spiritual gifts. There's a different thing with evangelizing non believers, which is where I think a lot of the influencer gift is, is like, you know, really being able to be a witness for Christ. And there's different gifts that God's given us for the building up of his body, and we're just sort of throwing it all into one. And I think in the women's conversation, it can be the same thing as well. It's like, okay, can we just have a broader, longer conversation and put lots of things up on a whiteboard and go, what are we exactly talking about? Because when it comes to maybe even preaching and teaching, well, even, you know, Paul writes some. Some are called to be prophets, pastors, evangelists, teachers, you know, not all. Many more, 99.9% are called to be witnesses for Christ in the marketplace. So how. Why are we convoluting both of those things rather than saying these some are supposed to be equipping these most. And all of it is valid in the kingdom of God because the whole earth is the Lord's. So I say all that to you to go. I just think we can have a broader conversation and find that. I know at Propel, we are very committed to saying. My job, if God has called me to preach and teach, is to train and equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. So how am I training and equipping women that within their sphere of influence, they are flourishing, thriving, and ultimately being witnesses? Cause that's what Jesus said. You're gonna receive power to be witnesses for the gospel. And so to me, more than fulfilling my goal, or am I using just my gifts, or am I doing what I want or what I'm best at? You know, we've planted churches, Kerry, in Warsaw, in Sofia, Bulgaria, Thessaloniki, Greece. I'm telling you, those pastors are not sitting around going, am I just doing the thing that I love to do most? Because 99.9% of what they're doing is probably what they don't want to do, but for the sake of the kingdom, and they've laid down their lives for Christ, that's what they're doing.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So, you know, this episode is brought to you by Compassion. I have personally worked with Compassion International for years, and one thing I love about them is their dedication to empowering the local church. They understand that the church is actually God's chosen instrument to do his work here on Earth. So they work with churches around the globe and here at home, churches just like yours. You can partner with Compassion and equip your church members to step into global missions. They've got a library of resources, experiences, and events for leaders just like you. Your church family is gonna get encouraged to go and make disciples. And you'll be ready when you partner with Compassion to lead them there. And the one thing I'll tell you is that when you lean into a partnership like this, when you lean into a posture of compassion like Jesus did, it's going to change your church, your leaders, your congregation. It'll change you. So check out compassion.comcarrie to download free resources and learn more about Compassion's ministry. That's compassion.com C A R E Y. No, it's really helpful. And I mean, Barna's doing a deep dive on the data about why women are leaving the church. So we'll have answers maybe end of the year next year. But I'm really curious because I think I'm not leading a local church right now, but if I was, I would be looking at our data to see are we matching that trend, are we bucking it? Where is the leak in the system? And so before we wrap up and get onto other subjects, do you have anything else on women leaving the church that you want to note, knowing that there's a lot of church leaders listening right now? Anything else that comes to mind?

[Christine Cain]

And I know you've covered this and you've got some great interviews, but I mean, there is no doubt that not valuing the voice of women, not platforming women and giving them visibility, all of these things are factors. And so they should be because Jesus valued women and Jesus platformed women. And in fact, you know, in Luke 8:1:3, when it talks about the it's almost like we forget that we always preach Luke 7, you know, the woman that poured the oil over Jesus when he's at Simon's house and, you know, that's so beautiful. And he forgave this woman because she was so broken and so marginalized. Well, you know, three verses later, he's traveling and preaching and teaching, and it says he was with the apostles and many women who funded his ministry out of their own means. So I'm going listen in the same verses, yes, there are broken women to whom Jesus gives value and dignity, and we always elevate those women. And thank God, because I was one of those, of course, with my background of abuse and abandonment and rejection. And also I want to. And the other women as well. So can you be successful? Well, apparently they didn't have the Billy Graham rule because Jesus was a single man traveling. And there was Joanna, the wife of chooser that was she's obviously a married woman with means that traveled as part of his preaching team that funded his ministry out of her own means along with many other women. The scripture says in Luke 8. 3. So I'm saying they were obviously successful, financially independent women of generosity that funded a the mission of Jesus as he traveled. So there is room for all of them, the poor, the broken, the marginalized and the successful, and the leadership gurus. And so I want all of those women to say we are all in the mission of God. So expanding the mission of God to go beyond, you know, one hour on a Sunday to saying the other 167 hours of a week when we're out there, we are carriers of the Gospel. And so how can we do that in the best way? So of course, if you are not giving women any kind of visibility. I know at our church we are so intentional with our formation of women. And so you see it. So our pews are full of women, and women contribute at every level of a church life. And they keep coming because then a woman will not be sort of thinking twice about, will I even invite a friend from work to church because she's gonna go back into the dark ages. I'll give you just one small story, but a woman that I'm very involved in and been for 20 years was the vice president of a global. If I told you the name, you would know. You know, huge insurance global company multiplied billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars of budget. It's so huge, and yet it comes into church and the pastor's like, you know, I'll just call her Sally. You know, Sally, when you really want to do real ministry, then you can come and you can be on the church finance team, of which probably the whole budget of the church was like her petty cash budget for one day. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm just.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It was a travel allowance for a recent trip.

[Christine Cain]

And all I thought is, what a wasted resource. Now I've got that person on my board and you're wondering why a 21 is, you know, all around the world. And because I'm like, I welcome, please bring those voices in because they desperately want to advance the kingdom. They want to use their gifts and talents to serve the kingdom. They love God, they honor God. So that thought, and there's so much of it now, it's changing, but I'm 60, so are you. So our generation and above was sort of like, oh, sweetie, you know, you're okay. There was well meaning, well intentioned, just extremely ignorant. And what a waste of, you know, a whole generation. And so I'm not even sure for most people, and it would be in some streams of the church, definitely it's a bit of a theological issue, so it's just kind of like understood they have no category to put a woman to do that. But truly, for most of the church, and I travel the world and I'm across a lot of streams, it's more ignorance and a lack of intentionality than anything deliberate. But I know for most women, and I think long and hard about who am I gonna invite where, because I meet different women on the road and if I'm in different places, I'm thinking, where would I actually tell you to go to church in your city, because you're gonna think you've gone back to the handmaiden's tale. You're gonna be like, what on earth just happened? And it's not about even this role or this function. It's truly the lack of dignity and the lack of value. And I think, if I have to sum it up, because this was not gonna be our discussion. I think I hijacked your question.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No, it's not. And we'll get to our discussion at some point, I'm sure.

[Christine Cain]

I think that even if at a pastoral level, the initial discussion has really got to be, do we truly value women? Do we truly dignify them? And now let's be ruthless and rip apart everything that we're doing and say, are we speaking out of both sides of our mouth? Are we saying we value and we dignify women? But the reality is, in terms of visibility, function, inclusion in sermon illustrations, how many texts did I preach out of 52 Sundays that are solely men? Did I preach and are the only texts about women? The fact that they're all like, loose floozies and Jesus forgives you, you know, like, is there maybe something else that the Bible has to say about value and dignity? Is it just the token Mother's Day sermon, you know, and we'll get someone up who may or may not even be anointed to preach, but we're just gonna put them up because we think it's a body, it's a female body. And I'm like, that's not helping.

[Carrie Newhoff]

You're preaching, Christine. You're preaching.

[Christine Cain]

Come on down the court. It's not like, you know, so what intentional pipelines and pathways do we have in our churches that go right down to the nursery, that go, a woman can walk in this, be born into this place, and there is an intentional pipeline and pathway to her development in the kingdom of God. Whether she wants to be a stay at home mom, homeschooling five kids, or whether she wants to be a corporate CEO in this house. There are pipelines and pathways of value, dignity, and leadership development. And really, my intention in this, this part of my life, the next decade is to help churches, denominations, and pastors all around the world do that go even within your theological structure. How can we create pipelines and pathways with intentionality to help develop women in the church?

[Carrie Newhoff]

That is so helpful. And I'm glad I asked, I'm glad we had this conversation. But I also want to flip it a little bit, Christine, and ask you A little more personally, like being of. Of our generation. You've seen things change. Maybe not change enough. But I'm guessing you ran into a lot of obstacles as a female preacher, as someone who has a call on her life. So I'd like to know what are some of the obstacles you experience in your life? And then why aren't you one of the deconverted? Why aren't you one of the people who say, I love Jesus, just not doing the church? Because you're deeply engaged in the local church.

[Christine Cain]

Yes, very much so.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Why didn't you become a statistic?

[Christine Cain]

Yeah, great question. Well, first and foremost, let's just say the grace of God.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yes, yes, to all of us.

[Christine Cain]

That is a given.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's covering me. It's covering you.

[Christine Cain]

But grace and mercy, truly. And so that is first and foremost. And not just a flippant statement. That is absolutely the grounding of that. But also. And I think, Kerry, you know, I wanna be careful because I do know so many women that have just been so deeply hurt. So I don't ever wanna dismiss that or diminish that. I don't wanna appear that I'm not sensitive to that. Here's a couple. And I don't have just the church thing. I come from a staunch Greek Orthodox culture and I'm 60. So back in the day I was born in 1966, women were overtly secondary. I mean, my brothers were everything. You know, we were definitely down on the totem pole.

[Carrie Newhoff]

So even back to childhood, it was like, oh, not a son.

[Christine Cain]

Cultural thing. As well as. Then the church thing here is one of the greatest gifts. When I really got saved, because it was in Australia and in the context that I was in, you know, I was the immigrant girl from, you know, quite a lower socioeconomic kind of suburb that I came from. Government housing. You put all those things together. I had been abused. So I was not anybody. Anybody wanted. You know, I wasn't who you see today. I was like, just. And I got saved. And then someone took me to a Pentecostal church. So great. We were the ragamuffins. We were all the ones nobody wanted. We were the poor, the immigrants, the women. Like, it was just. It threw us all in there together. And. And so we were like in a warehouse. This was, you know, 1980s. Like, nobody was even thinking about us. We were nobody. So then this is the gift. Beggars can't be choosers. No one was sitting around going, okay, what gender are you and what gift can we use? It's like, we're desperate. God is moving. People need to be saved. We were already such a mess. We were, like, just one inch above in front of, like, the person that was on drugs or the person that was broken. We were just like, one day more saved. And so you didn't care. No one was asking, what seminary degree did you have? It's like, do you know Jesus? Do you have a pulse? Get out there. You know, it was kind of that. Now, you know, I'm saying that a little bit tongue in cheek, but not much, because it was a gift. So it was. That meant that my obvious either communication gift, leadership gift, and I'd say both are as strong as each other, very quickly were put to good use because nobody was thinking, you can't do that because you're a woman. It was just. And I lived in the era and girls, some of you. I know I'm almost scared to say this in 2026, but it was just. You had to suck it up back then. It was, chris, you're the best guy for the job. You're the best. And I got that all through the 80s and 90s. I'm sorry, it's just.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No, that's fair. I mean, we're just telling stories. We're telling what happened.

[Christine Cain]

Chris is the best man for the job. Okay, I saw that. I mean, did I sit down and think, well, of course, in today's lens, my gosh, that would be a canceling thing. Okay, now, and I'm not saying it's right, but what I am saying is I could see God in it and that it was like, the Lord's opening this door. I've got an opportunity. So absolutely. In the 1990s, when I was being raised in, you know, leadership, was I the only woman at every table? Yes. I was in denominator. I was the denominational head of. Of our particular denomination in Australia. I was the head of the youth movement to this day, which is not a great testimony, but I'm still the only woman that has ever held that role. Big youth events, you know, tens of thousands of young people in stadiums and rallying, all the denominations, all of that sort of stuff. Well, so I was the only woman. And if you want to talk about sexism, I could not repeat on your podcast the things that I've heard. I'm sure that's true in 2026. I'm not saying any of it was right, but when Joseph was in prison, it wasn't right either. When Joseph was falsely accused in Potiphar's House, it wasn't right either. But the scripture says, but the Lord was with Joseph, this is fresh cause I just preached this a passion. And I'm not in any way justifying anything that is not right. But if my future in God is dependent on somebody else's sanctification, I am never ever going to fulfill my God given destin cause if I wait for them to get it right, to say it right, to think right, which is what so much of our social media thing is doing. If I could just change their mind if they. And I'm like, honey, if the Holy Spirit of God cannot sanctify them at this rate right now, I'm not gonna be able to. So what I'm looking for is what Joseph did. Where's the God opportunity in this? Where did God open a door? And so while everyone else is saying, you know, I'm not gonna do that because this isn't right because of abc. Now of course, let me put the disclaimer because again that's something where I am not in any way talking about any form of abuse, any form of violence, anything illegal. That's a given. So that's a given. Outside of that though, if it's, well, you know, he's just a misogynist, or this person is insecure, or they're ego driven, or they're just a narcissist, well that's really a sanctification issue and that's up to the Holy Spirit. And I am not going to let that, that thwart me. And I'm not gonna waste my one and only life on this earth trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit in that person's life. I'm gonna look for where has God opened it up for me And I'm gonna walk. And then I know the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in me. So I have agency regardless of what they think. And I'm saying that to you as a 60 year old that runs a global anti trafficking organization that speaks globally, that does what I do. So there might be some merit to. What I'm saying is what I'm trying to tell people at this point is that if you are going to just spend your one and only life trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives, you're gonna be so disappointed. You will, you will deconstruct, you will walk away. But I was never deluded to think that those people were God or that my destiny was in their hands. I knew no matter what role they had over me. And obviously they did. I knew that my destiny, my purpose was in the hands of God. And that promotion doesn't come from the north, south, east or west. It comes from God. And that God opens doors no man can shut. Does that mean I've had to keep my mouth shut at times when things were said to me that were just. And again, I'm not talking about anything abusive. I'm just talking about whether it's narcissistic, whether it's just, you know, all of those. So fallen human nature. Absolutely. Was I overlooked time and time again and was I more skilled and you know, probably a better fit for certain things and wasn't given those roles because a man was. Yes, I could name multitudes of those, but why would I waste my time doing that? Because I'm now 60, so there's a 40 year journey, I can tell you. And I'm thinking five big, big promotions in my life that have brought me to where you see me now. None of those men are still in ministry that are there? None.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Wow. Quit or disqualified?

[Christine Cain]

Both. Yes, in both cases. And so. But I imagine, now imagine if I let them because of either their narcissism or their misogyny or their. Imagine if I so internalize that that I thought I'm giving up on God and the church. Well, I'm where God wants me and you know, they're responsible before the Lord now for the abusive things. Of course. Thank God, Thank God for the awakening in the church in the last decade that is happening. Thank God for the reckoning and that people are being held to account and that we are, you know, have. Thank God for the calling out. I mean, listen, I have been a voice for the voiceless for my entire ministry life and especially for the victims of human trafficking and so abusive behavior in churches. Thank God that's come to the forefront. But the truth is that's not going to be most people's experience. Most women now it needs to be front and center for what it is. Most women are gonna come across basic fallen human nature. You know, we use the language, narcissism, we use the language. Misogyny, we use the language whether people are just mean or unkind or unlo, that's what you're mostly gonna come up across and that's what's gonna make you want to quit and things that are just unjust and not fair. And you're like, why is he promoted? Just cause he's a guy. I've been doing all the work and he's recognized But I see those things as tests from God. And I have found God has promoted me despite, in some cases, some people not wanting to. It's like, I don't know, the Lord did this. And the good news is, if God puts you here, God keeps you here. If you put yourself there, God, you have to keep yourself there. So I'm never looking over my shoulder. I'm not trying to stress myself out. I'm like, God put me here. And you could tell me I'm not the most talented I know, you could tell me I'm the most eloquent I know, but I didn't put myself here. And throughout scripture we always teach, you know, that God will use the unqualified. He'll take nobodies and make them somebodies. And then we get so offended when God does it. We really do. So, Kerry, there's my kind of. I'm saying all that to go to the girls. Hang in there, you know, hang in there for the stuff that is just fallen human nature, meaning people are just mean, unkind, their own sinful pride or arrogance or narcissism. Don't let that cut you out of the race. I mean, seriously, I always just think, you know, I think I just outlasted the devil. And so I'm still here. That's it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

This episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership. Live There is something AI cannot do.

[Christine Cain]

Guess what?

[Carrie Newhoff]

It can't replace the experience and the power of being in a room with the right people. Sure, you can tap AI on the shoulder at work when you need to get something done today. But make sure you're intentional about spending time with actual people who can push you and can help you grow spiritually, emotionally and as a leader. You know that church is more powerful in person with others. Community groups work really well when they're tight knit. And conferences become invaluable when they focus on connecting you not just with content, but with other like minded leaders. So on that note, I want to invite you to join me in Nashville, Tennessee this September for three days of deep growth, trusted guidance and fresh vision for what's next. It's all happening at the Art of Leadership Live. It's not another conference where you sit and listen for eight hours a day to a talking head. This is interactive, it's practical. We cap the attendance and it's built around the kind of conversations that actually move leaders forward. In fact, my favorite part of last year was how amazing the leaders in the room were. We had great conversations and it was actually A very deep emotional connection. And that's why I'm very excited about this year. We're gonna spend three days digging together into what's next for your leadership, for your church, and for the future of ministry. We're gonna deep dive into a project I've been working on for two years about AI and the future church. I got a book coming out about it that releases one week before the event. We're gonna go deep on AI and the future church, how it's gonna disrupt and impact everything. Space is limited, and it's your very last chance today to save early with Early Bird pricing. It ends April 30, so don't delay. Head on over to theartofleadershiplive.com or click the link in the description of this episode to secure your spot. And the best pricing before April 30th. That's theartofleadershiplive.com I'd love to see you there. I'm just trying to be quiet to let you run because, man, that's so refreshing. And a unique take. So we've talked about our age and stage, the big year, your birthday. I want to suggest you're 60, going on 18. When it comes to energy, oh, my goodness. Like, if somebody didn't know and was listening to watching this, they'd be like, who's this kid waiting to get let out of the box? What are you doing? Because, you know, this was something I noticed when I was in my 30s. I'm like, by the time you get to our stage of, like, life, a lot of people are out of gas, out of life. It's a series of every year I do less. It's not like 60 new things now that I'm 60. It's like 60 things I used to do and don't do anymore. And I was determined not to do that. And so I've got my own version of how to be at my best, et cetera. But I'd love to know you. Honestly, every time I've encountered you on stage, stage, off stage, in interviews, you're just the Energizer Bunny. Like, you go and go and go and go. What are you doing that is fueling your energy and your joy and your passion these days, for sure.

[Christine Cain]

I love that. And I've always had this theory that the longer we walk with the Lord, the more exciting it ought to be. I can't imagine how you could be getting closer to the finish line. If we say that we. We have fixed our eyes on Jesus, the author, and the finisher of our faith. How are you going to be getting closer to the finishing line and not be more excited and not be more energized and not have more of a glint in your eye? I've known him for almost four decades longer than I did when I was 20. So this is, like, phenomenal. And I'm getting closer to that finish line. So even all the stuff that is really deeply challenging, it's like, okay, I'm closer to the end than I am to the beginning. If I want to finish strong, sometimes

[Carrie Newhoff]

I do think about that, that it is.

[Christine Cain]

I want to finish well.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It's a comforting thought.

[Christine Cain]

And I think I've had to learn to navigate very early on, and especially helping to rescue the victims of human trafficking. The reality is, you know, I've been privy to the darkest stories of evil for two decades plus. Things I could never say here. You know, when Nick and I get our reports from our offices and, you know, I could tell you last night what I was reading from our offices in Asia. And I mean, it would be overwhelming. It is so evil, what is done to children and what human nature is capable of. I know we see so much in the news here, and I think. And there is still more evil. There is still more evil even than that. So I had to. And I've got two daughters, so I had to very early on. And I started a 21 right when I had Sophia. So it was right then going, God, I'm gonna have to find a way. Either I'm gonna become neurotic and very fearful, or I'm gonna have a mental breakdown, because this is just too much to be able to process. So I learned then my shoulders are not broad enough to carry the suffering of the world or even the injustices that we see. I have to put them on shoulders that are bigger than mine to carry. And of course, that's only Jesus shoulders at Calvary could carry that of suffering and evil. So. So I learned very early on I can't take on the burden of the darkness and the evil. But I know where to put it really quickly. And I think that's how I can cope on social media. And whatever is, it doesn't seem to affect me quite like it affects others, because I very quickly put it to the only one that can do anything about it, ultimately, which is Jesus, rather than bearing the burden. Cause his burden is easy and his yoke is light. So anytime it doesn't get easy in that way, I mean, the burden not. Of course I work hard, but and it feels heavy. Then I know I'm carrying something Jesus never called me to carry. So instantly I'm gonna go to him. And I have probably said over my life, you know, I love to confess scripture, Isaiah 40, 31, for about 30 years, you know, And I'll say it, I'll change the wording a little bit for me and put my name in it. But it's like, Christine, you know that if you wait upon the Lord, you will renew your strength. Christine, you will mount up on wings like eagles. Christine, you will run and not grow weary. Christine, you will walk and not faint. And I say that to myself all the time. And I'm like, you know what? I am not going to get weary. That doesn't mean I'm immune from suffering, pain, mistakes, loss, grief. I'm married for 30 years and all the beauty and the challenges that that brings. I've got a 24 year old and a 20 year old. So there's the reality of that. I have hundreds of staff in, we deliver services in 22 countries. I mean, that alone is an issue with a 21 plus what I do for women around the world. So the fact is that if I let that overwhelm me, then it starts to get heavy, then I know somewhere I'm out of sync again. I can't limit. I also am careful what I listen to. Remember, it was 12 leaders, Kerry, that went into the promised land. 12 leaders that Moses sent in in numbers 13. And of those 12, 10 came back with a negative report. It wasn't. The people didn't die in the wilderness really of their own volition. They died in the wilderness because of the negative report of 10 leaders. So I'm very careful what leaders I listen to. And the promise was there for everybody. So everybody should have gone into that promised land. But not everyone did. And really a lot of this is the thesis of my book, Flourish. Because I'm going in Psalm 92, it says, even in old age you will keep flourishing. Those that are planted in the house of the Lord shall flourish and they will bear fruit even in their old age. And David wrote, you know, that I am like a flourishing olive tree in the house of God. And when he was being chased and betrayed and almost killed and depressed and hiding in a cave. So I'm going to what does it mean? Because our generation in the church, in the western church is not seeing great examples of people flourishing to the end. And I pray, I want to be one of those. So I'm like, if God says we're to flourish, of course, Genesis 1, the mandate is, you know, go forth, multiply, reproduce, have dominion, flourishing. Jesus. John 10:10. I came that you might have life and life more abundant. He came that we would have a flourishing life. And then. And of course, I'm not ever talking about amassing, acquiring or accumulating more things. I'm talking about what comes out of your life, I. E. Love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, self control, all the things that we're not seeing in the world today. I'm going, whatever happened to this flourishing? Because obviously we're not flourishing. You look on social media and go, whoa, that is not the fruit of the spirit. I don't know what fruit that is, but that you're not, you're not producing the fruit of the spirit. Spirit. But we should be. If we as Christians, if we're becoming Christlike, it's not about how much Bible knowledge or Bible memorization do we have. It's how much of the spirit of God are we producing, are we flourishing, are we rooted and grounded in Christ and then in that the kingdom of God. There's so much talk in our world and the narrative of justice about what the kingdom of God is. Of course, I'm all about justice. I run a global anti trafficking organization. But the kingdom of God, Paul says righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. So to me, if a leader is not walking in righteousness, is not filled with the joy and the peace of the Holy Spirit, you could be running 100 church services, you could be running big justice operations. You can be on the right side of every issue, but really, are you bringing the kingdom of God to earth? So I could be running a 21 and speaking around the world, but really, if I'm not about righteousness, joy and peace, how much of the kingdom am I really bringing to this earth? And so I think, you know, there's a lot to be said about righteousness as a fruit of flourishing and the righteous will flourish. The Bible says, and joy and peace. And of course, in there, when as I'm dissecting the olive tree and the olive branch and peacemaking, there would be something really wrong if I'd been running a 21 for 20 years, preaching and teaching for 40 years, and I had less peace and less joy. Today, my daughters would look at me and go, is this thing real? What are you even talking about? And so I want to say to the body that could we not be so overwhelmed by this world? And let's be careful how much of the language of the therapeutic culture that we're picking up, that we're leaving God out of this and the power of God to bring transformation into our lives.

[Carrie Newhoff]

What are some of the terms, phrases, concepts of the therapeutic culture that you would say are overused or maybe inconsistent with the gospel? Like what are you seeing and hearing that you would say? No, that's not flourishing for sure.

[Christine Cain]

And I think you're talking to someone that so believes in therapy. Yes, I want to say that.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Oh, me too. I've been in therapy for decades.

[Christine Cain]

We employ therapists all over the world, so I thank God for it. But we also must not forget that Isaiah said one of the names of Jesus is wonderful, capital C counselor. And it's like we have forgotten our capital C counselor. So let me just give you an example that was in the ministry space, in the pastoral space. I'm on a pastoral team. I'm a teaching pastor and I do so many leadership conferences around the world church. I'm going to leave here to do one in London, you know, with the Anglican church very soon. So here is the deal. When I hear, and I'm hearing it increasingly in podcasts, I think this was in an effort to correct something that was really wrong and to show our parishioners that we are accountable and that we're getting help and we're self aware. But the number of times I hear a preacher in their preaching go last week when I was talking to my therapist, when I was in the counseling room. Okay, so it's almost like a rite of passage now. Now I have got to say in every sermon that when I was talking to my therapist, I thought there was a day when I came to church cause I actually wanted you to be talking to God. I've come here, could you tell me. And it's almost like because and particularly my stream of the church, there has been such an abuse of God, said I was talking to God. I understand that. So I do want to say I totally understand that. But the overcorrection is so much that we have turned and I'm talking to my therapist into now. That is my stock standard. Now I don't know if your therapist is a self appointed spiritual director. Is it someone that actually went to the school for this? You know, like, I mean there are so many coaching certificates that you can get online that like. So that doesn't really tell me anything anyway. What does that even mean? So I just think it's almost like we're saying, well, I've got God and I've got my Bible reading, but I really need you to know that I'm also doing abcde. It can be a good thing. But let's not make, let's not ensure that we're still. People come because they wanna hear from God. I'm assuming they're thinking, I've been in a prayer closet with the Lord. And the word that I'm bringing is because something that I've had an impression that the Lord wants me to bring. I go to church. Cause I know my senior pastor prays over our calendar, earnestly goes away, and we do our teaching roster a year out. Some people go, well, you're leaving no room for the Holy Spirit. I love what Pastor Eric says. He goes, your God's too limited. My God transcends time. He's in the future. He already knows what we're doing for the next. And I love that. It's like he goes, I've got a big view of God, not a small view of God. And I have.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I'm with Eric on that one.

[Christine Cain]

Me too. Listen, I come from a total different background, but I have learned to love this. And I get my teaching texts like everybody else. And for me, it's a good check and balance. Cause I'm on a team. I get a text, I have to do the work I'm part of. You know, so much else of what I do around the world is what I bring. So I. It's a form of accountability. I'm monitored, I send my sermon in ahead of time, all the things. And I think that is a really good check and balance to keep me on track. I say that to go. A lot of times we've become so used to language, if we're not careful, we're calling everybody a narcissist. Well, do we really know what the clinical diagnosis of a narcissist really is before we tend to use that word? Because if someone maybe just having a bad day, is someone maybe have some character flaws, are they really a narcissist? Well, I don't know. I'm not qualified. I haven't gone to school to be able to diagnose someone and say, that's what you are. But you know, I've got 22 year olds throwing out these huge words and I'm like, just because your boss wants you at work at 9, because that's the time you start getting paid, does not mean they're toxic. Just because they may, you know, I'm just saying like, so everything is toxic, everything's narcissistic, everything's this or that. Because we've learned some words and I'm like, okay, we've gotta be really careful because where are you being formed spiritually? So for me, going to work and having to rub shoulders with other people, it was stuff that formed me. Having to be told things I didn't like about my job. And those things formed me. But if everything is toxic, if everything is stressful, how am I building resilience into a culture? How am I building strength into the next generation? So I think what happens is there's been this shift so much that God wants me to be happy. Therefore, here's a simple thing. So I was working with the staff of another organization and I was doing a one on one interview and this person was telling me in the early 20s, well, you know, I love serving. And they were using the word serving. And I said, can I just ask a question? Are you doing extended hours outside of what you're paid to do? They sort of looked at me like, no, you know, like whatever that. And I said, so what you're telling me is you are paid to work a 38 hour week, but you're calling that serving? I said, well that's not serving. That's actually you're being paid to do a job. So it's probably right that your boss wants you to do that job and that there are, there's KPIs and that, you know, when you have your assessments, it's not like this isn't called serving. And I'm going, we need to get this right. Because that then affects church, it affects volunteerism in the community. If we're thinking me just turning up to get paid for what I do is called serving. I'm like, like, so what's working? So where's your job? So what is. It's these sort of things that I'm thinking, okay, terms and language and we're almost thinking like there is a place you come to work to do a job, to be paid to be remunerated at the right rate. But this is not where you're coming to get your therapy and this is not where you're coming to get your. I don't know, you're relaxing or you're joy necessarily for everything that you want. It is just an odd thing to me. I go, so where do. So all those scriptures in the Bible about you don't work, you don't eat, about going to work, about you being. I said, we've had this great conversation in the last 10 years about the responsibility of leaders and bosses. Really great Conversations extremely necessary. I've had to make adjustments. Everyone's had to make adjustments. That's wonderful. I go, but there are equally as many scriptures in the Bible about the responsibility of workers and the responsibility not just of shepherds, but also of sheep. And I said, so where are we going to now start having some of those conversations? Cause those are all the same scriptures in the same Bible. And so we've all got this accountability and responsibility. And I think what has happened is we've had either a lot of people that maybe are not in leadership positions and have never been trying to say to a leader, this is how you should be. And I'm like, based on what experience or what knowledge or what so. And then because there's some language that can be used around either toxic leadership culture or around narcissistic kind of leadership. And I'm like, wow, you're just throwing around terms. But this used to be called coming to work and getting paid for doing a job, you know, and that's all. And someone actually asking you to present your reports is not mean. And it's not, you know, that's just what you're supposed to do because it's your job. So I think that's what I'm saying. And so we've allowed some of that language to co opt our spiritual formation and that. I just think the pendulum swung a whole lot that way. It needed to start swinging. No doubt. It's just that it didn't stop in the middle, it kept going. And now I'm thinking there's this shift back. And intuitively I think people know it's right. And people that are really walking with the spirit and the people sitting in our pews and the people in our organizations, they know it's right. It's just we've had a big 10 years of it swinging the other way.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. And there's a satisfaction in hard work. There is a satisfaction in going over and above. There's a joy that comes from work. And some of my favorite things to preach are series on work. And there are equal admonitions for bosses and also for workers.

[Christine Cain]

Absolutely. And I think in the flourishing thing, I'm trying to put some of that back. Like flourishing doesn't mean that we're sitting down looking at the butterflies all day. You know, like that's sitting on a beach. What we've done is had so much of this conversation which is so important, like, God is not a harsh God. There's beauty in the world and there's truth. And you Know, let's use our imagination. All of that is really important. But that's not how the world operates. Only flourishing in our workplaces and, you know, having a real firm commitment to showing up and doing what God has called us to do. We've gone the other way. And so part of it is languishing. So you see that this real sort of meh attitude, I don't really care. That's why those of us that are sort of tuning into this revival, the silent revival, the quiet revival, they're calling in England. And the things that you've been even focusing on your podcast, the universities and what's happening in churches, we're seeing it. But the reason we need to be showcasing that is because there has become sort of such a languishing. It's not even. It's not even having the energy not to care. It's just like an indifferent. Like people are just like. Yeah, it's just this existing, this bland. We all sort of went so out there, you know, 20, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Everyone was just angry about everything. And it's sort of like. Like, that's not gonna make a difference. I'm just not really gonna worry about the world. I'm not really that worried about church. And if people are gonna come and people aren't gonna come, it's just this sort of meh, kind of like, I don't.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Passive. Passive.

[Christine Cain]

Yeah, very much.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I was trying to say passivity.

[Christine Cain]

Yeah. And I'm sort of. I think I wrote flourishing to go. I wanna speak to that passivity. And go. We were actually created to flourish. It's in us and it's time. I mean, we're in 2026. You know, Kerry, I mean, I'm at a leadership conference not long ago, and I'm asking, you know, your normal question, pastors, leaders, house, church, whatever. And they're like. To think that I would still get this comment in this year. Well, you know, Chris, before COVID So I've got. Then I know we're gonna talk about numbers. It's either gonna be how many on a Sunday.

[Carrie Newhoff]

We were doing great seven years ago.

[Christine Cain]

And I, I, Kerry, there was a day where B.C. stood for before Christ, not before COVID That was the day like, okay, everybody we please, it's time to move on and start flourishing. And this to me is gonna be so important for Gen Z. They've gotta see us flourishing and think this thing's worth going all the way through. Cause they've seen people maybe go to their 40s and then you listen to so many, you know, of either the people that have. Whatever they've done, you know, just walked away or deconstructed. And if they're the only conversations they're hearing about this is what happens at 40, I'm like, no, you need to hear, no, no, no. Because if you could push through some of that, this is what it could look like at 60. And this is. And I think that's what they're wanting to see.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Well, one of your key points is that pruning is important. Use the metaphor of olive trees, olive oil, et cetera. But. And we know that, right, from Scripture, John 15, et cetera, that pruning is important. I look back at this point in my life, and if there's good in my life today, which there is, probably came from pruning. And it was really painful at the time, and I resisted it. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the value of pruning. And what is the difference between when God is pruning you, but it might feel like God is breaking you.

[Christine Cain]

Yes, I think that's very good. And I think any of us that are doing anything that has any longevity in the kingdom have gone through. It's not a once and done different pruning seasons in our life. And it could hit. Sometimes it's relationally.

[Carrie Newhoff]

He's still pruning me. Absolutely.

[Christine Cain]

I'll give you a great example. I think this might sum it up and really help people, even organizationally as well. I remember at the beginning of 2024. So now we're in 2026. So two years ago, it was right around this time, January, you know, your vision to all your staff. I've got all of our offices on. I've been calling. We meet on Zoom, like a lot of people. And I call it the Upper Zoom Room. So I've been calling it for the last five years. We're going to the Upper Zoom Room. And I didn't even know, you know, when you say things as a leader, and then you go, oh, my gosh, Lord, this is what I wish. I wish. That's not what I meant. But I mean, I was talking about the pruning. Cause I really knew it was gonna be an intentional season of pruning. And I was reading the text where it says, you know, those branches that don't bear fruit are gonna be thrown into the fire. And then it says, though Jesus said, and those branches that bear fruit will also be pruned. And I'm saying to our Team. Well, guys, this is the year of pruned. If you do pruned, if you don't, it's just pruning all around. I said, so the easy prune, organizationally and even in our own lives is the obvious stuff that's not bearing fruit anymore. You just kind of go, yeah, that's. That's not even. You know, you're gonna do it. I can cut.

[Carrie Newhoff]

This branch is dead.

[Christine Cain]

That's it.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Pretty easy.

[Christine Cain]

It's not growing like the others. If I've gotta make my choices, I could cut the budget to that ministry. You could do that. The hardest thing is the stuff that's bearing fruit. And when it comes to our age, too. And I think this is where it works with the Lord too. When I first got saved the pruning, dear Lord, there was overt stuff that needed to be pruned. It was ungodly. It was okay 40 years later. Now, unless I'm hiding anything, which I don't know to be in my life, there's nothing that I obviously look at today and go, man, that is a sinful thing that has to stop tomorrow. Okay? It's not so much that. So God has to reveal what that is, because obviously I'm not perfect. And he has a way of doing that. That's the stuff where you go, I didn't even know that was buried down there. And that's those seasons. And normally that'll happen through something relational or something maybe in ministry. Cause we're all in ministry. That doesn't go the way you knew it could have gone. And God gets your attention through that thing, and you're like, wow. And then it begins something internally, deeply painful, because mostly by this stage, you're not really expecting it unless you're living any kind of double life or whatever.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christine Cain]

If you're not doing that, by and large, you're getting up, having a quiet time. You're trying to love everybody. You're trying to, you know, be nice to your spouse. Generally, you're trying to be a good person. So the Lord then goes, and again, it's always for purpose if you want to keep bearing fruit. Chris, after 60, there's some things, deep layers down in your heart that are going to have to be dealt with so that you can find greater areas of freedom for me to do what I need to do through you in the future. So I think part of why maybe we stop wanting to even flourish at our age too, is cause you go, I don't feel like going there again.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Have I not arrived. I think I've arrived, right? I've had that thought. And then I'm like, that's such a dumb, thoughtful.

[Christine Cain]

And I don't want to. Cause here's the difference for us now. We are a little bit more cognizant of the pain involved. It's kind of like, you know, when I had my first baby, I was so ignorant. Man, I'm going in there, I'm gonna pop this thing out in five minutes. And then the contraction hits by the second baby, I'm not that cocky anymore because I'm like, okay, you're like, this hurt, but there's going to be some. And it's almost like that with pruning at this point, I want what's on the other side. But I'm deeply aware that this is going to hurt. And so I think sometimes you just go, oh, I'm still going to get into heaven without having to do that. So you go, I mean, I almost think it's selfish. It's like, I don't wanna keep growing. I don't want to keep flourishing. I'm really happy. And sometimes you can actually spiritualize it. Well, you know, it's not all about up and to the right, and it's not all about growing. And it's not. And yet I agree with all of those things. Your value, your significance, your security should never come from those things. But you should be producing fruit until you cross the finish line. But we're called to. There is no. Of course our bodies change. I'm not always gonna be running at this pace. You know, you call me the Energizer Bunny. Well, for however long God gives me this. But I don't compare my calendar this year with last year. I'm not saying. How many times did I say? I really am not. But I don't want to leave nothing on the table. This year, I want all of. I want to do everything God's called me to do. And next year, and that might look different. By God's grace, I pray I finish strong and healthy. But if I end up in a hospital bed and that's the way, well, I wanna be fruitful there with the doctor as I'm witnessing the person, whatever it might look like, just because it's not always up and to the right does not give you an excuse to stop doing everything. And I think that's where the selfishness comes in. It's like, well, I've earned this. Now I can just. And I'm like, earn what? Jesus bought my Salvation. I'm supposed to do this till the day I die, just because the world says, now, you've earned your retirement package and you can golf your way to heaven. When I become presumptuous, something then has died in my heart. When I start thinking, well, I deserve this. I've been serving for 40 years. I'm going at that moment. I'm no longer pursuing Christ. It's got nothing to do with how busy my schedule is. It's got everything to do with the posture of my heart. And that's really where the whole flourishing thing comes out of. So I'm like, the more I commit to the pruning process, as painful as it is. And we have gone through the biggest pruning in the last two years, but the best already, as this year's kicked in, I'm like, lord, I can't believe what you've done. And the fruit. And I pray, I pray it's his will. I think it is. That I'm gonna play a part in this end time, harvest, whatever you wanna call it, this great revival, whatever's happening on the earth right now. I have not come this far to only come this far. I have sown prayers and traveled the world and preached the gospel in over 100 countries for decades, not so that I can just tap out. Now I'm like, oh, oh. I'm watching what God's doing, and I want to whatever part, even if it's like, on the sidelines, praying, I am gonna be playing my part in this. I am not. I call it the Hezekiah syndrome. Kerry, this is what's really scary. And I think to a lot of leaders, this is what, what the moment we're in, it's, you know, King Hezekiah. Scripture tells us, in second King, he was such a great king, there was none like him. But in Isaiah 39, that chapter. Every pastor listening to this ought to go and read it after this podcast, because he goes, hezekiah, after he's done it, all right? I mean, this is the dude that prayed so hard. You know, the Assyrian army was wiped out, and he prayed so hard that. That God gave him 15 extra years. I mean, he reversed a prophecy. Isaiah, the prophet came and said, you're done. And he reversed the prophecy through the power of his faith and prayer. The sun moved back 10 degrees. That's how much power and faith he had. I don't know what happened between Isaiah 37, 38 and then chapter 39, where Hezekiah invites the Babylonians in, starts showing a Man, look at everything that I've got. Look at nothing. Not look what God's done, but look at everything that I've got. Look at my achievements, man. If we put it in modern day vernacular, look at my brand, look at my followers, look at my downloads, look as if we had anything to do with any of this. He's like, look at it. And then when Isaiah comes and you know, prophesies obviously that your children are gonna be taken into captivity, this is all over. Babylon's gonna rule you now. You would think the same dude that got on his face in chapter 37 and 38 and prayed and God then wiped out the Assyrians and then God gave him his life an extra 15 years, you would think he would get back on his face and say, I'm so sorry, you know, let's stop. No, no, no. But he says to me, the two saddest scriptures in the Bible. I'll tell you the second one in a minute. This is the saddest 1 in Isaiah 39, where Hezekiah says, the thing you have said to me is good because basically the paraphrase, I'm going to die before it all happens.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, I'll be dead before the bad things happen.

[Christine Cain]

And I think that's what we have to be careful of. And I feel a lot of leaders are there. It's not on my watch. I'm just going to get my retirement tap out. I stayed the distance.

[Carrie Newhoff]

This is too hard.

[Christine Cain]

I didn't have an affair, I didn't take the money. I'm okay, I'm just going to, you know, and I'm like, wow, that's not what we signed up for. So that's to me a big thing. And the second, the second set of scripture is in Judges 2:10, where it says, when Joshua and his generation died, another generation arose that did not know the Lord nor the works he had done for Israel. So as good as Joshua was, ultimately he failed. Because the thing is, you take all the promise. What is the big deal? Truly, Carrie, if I build the biggest anti trafficking organization, if I'm the chick preacher that's preached, ultimately big deal if I don't pass the baton of faith to a generation that won't run further, faster, harder, and know God more than me. And I think so many of us are so consumed with what's my legacy gonna be. We don't need to leave one other than, as Jude says, take the faith that's been passed on from generation to generation and we pass that on to the next generation. Ultimately, that is more important than. And how many people did I preach to and how big was my social media following and how, you know, how effective was I in a 21? Whether the history books remember that or not truly is insignificant. Whether the next generation knows Jesus or not, that's actually what matters.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Is there any area of your life that you would say God is pruning you in right now, Christine?

[Christine Cain]

I am always in a pruning process. There is no doubt about it. There is no, you know, and for me, the residue, Kerry, from just, you know, being left in a hospital, unnamed and unwanted when I was born, being, you know, finding out at 33, I was adopted, going through many years of childhood sexual abuse. Jesus has healed me of so much, and so much of what I do today is an overflow of that healing. But I find that the pruning that happens at different seasons of my life is. But more often than professionally, it's going to be something internally in my heart that has to do with that. Now the pruning that's happening, and it's sad in a way, is at 60, as I turn 60 this year, to not. When I say lonely isn't the word, I'm surrounded by awesome people. I have great friends, marriage. But, you know, when you first are in youth ministry and they call you down the front, you know, if you want to serve Jesus, you know, you're a teenager. Thousands are going forward. Yes. You know, here I am, Lord, you're in your 20s. They have an altar call. Well, now there's still hundreds. Here I am. We're all in this together. You get to 60, you look around, you go, where is everybody? You know, all those people that we said we didn't sign up to until, I don't know, I get the husband or until I get. Or until I get the business or until someone disappoints me in church, like, I signed up till I die kind of thing. So it's my challenge here is, you know, when I say not to settle, I could ride on the momentum of what the Lord's allowed me to do for the last 40 years and just pretty much, if I don't do anything stupid, I could ride on that momentum and just go cruise it out, cruise

[Carrie Newhoff]

it out for another couple of decades.

[Christine Cain]

You know, dial it in and I'm there. But to go, even though some people that I love and admire so much around my age sort of more, you know, I just want to sit outside, look at the plants and, you know, just take it easy kind of Thing to go, okay, that's okay for them. But I, that's not what I'm called to. Jesus is still calling me on. It takes a lot to dig down and go, I'm going to keep going. I'm not a 20 year old anymore. I'm not a 30, I'm not even trying to be, but I'm not that. I'm not 20, 30, 40 or 50. So I'm not in any of those age brackets. It's getting pretty thin in my age bracket of what do you look like? There's not too many textbooks. I can go and say, what does it look like to be a woman of God at the forefront, you know, pioneering and keep going at 60 and not to listen to either. Both sides of the coin. At my age, the narrative of try to stay young, try to stay young, try to stay relevant, whatever that means. Or the whole anti aging industry, you know, that whole, that's the whole anti aging industry, like you know, just. Or the kind of like you're old and you're out to pasture industry like this. It's one of those.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah, you're right. Where's the in between?

[Christine Cain]

Yeah, we're sort of somewhere going, okay, we're not the anti aging people. Because I want to age gracefully and yet I want to be like Caleb who at 85 said, I'm as strong now as I was then. Moses promised me Hebron, now give me

[Carrie Newhoff]

this mountain, climb that mountain, that's it.

[Christine Cain]

And so I want to be that. But I'm surrounded by people that are not necessarily that at my age and stage. And it's kind of like some people that go, well, can't you let go? And I'm like, well, yes, I'm not trying to be what I was, but I can't let go of Jesus. And if he's pulling me forward. So you have that sort of thing of like some people thinking like, you know, you should get out of the way. And I'm like, get out of the way of what? I'm not in anyone's way. I mean, I'm doing what God's called me to do. So you just have to again, do what you tell 20 year olds to do and 15 year olds to do. You and Jesus have got to be so tight. And that pruning of the need for everyone to understand you or to approve of you is a pruning that consistently has to happen to say, okay, I can learn some best practices and learn a lot from the literature on people my age, what our body does and what a woman's body does and all the hormonal things and all the adjustments. And also, I can still walk in faith and believe that God can, with his power and his strength, that I can do exceedingly, abundantly, above and beyond anything I could ever ask, hope, or think or imagine. And I can believe that, you know, my latter days can be greater than my former days, and that what's ahead of me can have greater fruitfulness and I can flourish more than what's behind me. And so, you know. But you're not gonna have a whole lot of people at this age and stage cheerleading you there. You have just gotta. You and God have gotta get that. And so that need. And for me, it's always gonna touch on a mothering wound. And as even my spiritual mother and certain people, I mean, you just get older and you die. That's. It's. You know, as George Bernard Shaw said, death is the ultimate statistic. One out of one will die. So I'm just like. People go, well, you know, I won't. I could just live long enough. Honey, you're going to. All of us are. So the thing is that when the people a little bit further down the track from you are all dying, you're like, I'm. It. There's nothing. It's an interesting feeling going, oh, I am the spiritual mother now. I am the. I. I am that. I am the adult in the room. This is, like, really scary. I'm like, jesus, you need to come back, because I am becoming the adult in the room, and this is really scary.

[Carrie Newhoff]

No, it's so funny. I feel like I went from the young upstart leader to the sage in about 20 minutes. I don't know how it happened that quickly. It was 20 years, but it felt like 20 minutes. So I get it. Well, the new book is called the Faith to Flourish. It's available everywhere. You get books. I enjoyed it a lot. But is there anything, Christine, that we didn't touch on, that you want to touch on before we wrap up today?

[Christine Cain]

Not other than to say, you know, whether you are younger and broken. I mean, when I was first dealing with all the stuff, the abuse, the abandonment, the adult, I needed someone to tell me I could flourish. And I think. And before, when you asked me that question about the therapeutic culture, a lot of the narrative in our culture is a victim narrative that almost has you parking your pain and your trauma as the end point.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I am my labels. I am my diagnosis.

[Christine Cain]

I guess I'm saying that. No, no, that you could see God's got a whole lot more for you. And it's been about 10 years since we've had those conversations again. No, you can flourish, you can overcome. Jesus can heal, and thank God we've got a whole lot of tools to help us. But the end goal is flourishing, not just surviving. You can thrive. And hopefully, through my past, I've lived now long enough to testify to that, you know, that it's not just. I'm not just giving you a story of my life. There's a testimony that this thing really does work. So whether you're broken. And then, of course, in those in between years of, what is it? And I guess if I'm talking to women that you got babies and lives, what is it to flourish in the midst of all of that, when life is going crazy, if you. You're single and you're going, what does it look like when all the church says is, you've got to get married and have kids? And I'm not, what is it to flag? I mean, all of these things are what I'm addressing. And I really do have a strong section. I mean, I've written about the Holy Spirit in a way that I've never written in two chapters of the book. Because I just. I think a whole lot of us, Max Lucada, a whole lot of us are just like, guys, we gotta tell you what the secret sauce is. It's like, you know, this is it. And so I really did, with great intentionality in ways I haven't ever in any of my. Talked about that in this book. Because it's like, that is the key, the empowerment of the Spirit of God. And what does that look like practically and theologically? So I went there, and then also I do wanna speak to people my age and go, please, our generation needs you to not stop. We need to continue.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Yeah. And I think your point about not a lot of mentors, particularly for women around that, you know, late 30s to mid-40s, that can be an encouragement because we do have a lot of young leaders listening, like, hang in there. Don't quit. Don't give up. If you're called to something else, great. Not gonna fight you. But a lot of people, they leave not because they're called elsewhere, but because they think, I can't do this anymore. And I think your book's gonna be a real encouragement to people. It's called the Faith to Flourish. It's available everywhere. Chris, if people wanna track with you online, where's the easiest place to find you?

[Christine Cain]

You I'm on all the things, but probably just Instagram is the thing I look at most. So just.

[Carrie Newhoff]

Chris, there it is.

[Christine Cain]

Yeah.

[Carrie Newhoff]

All right, well, we'll link to everything in the show. Notes, man. I didn't get to most of my notes, but that's a sign of a great conversation. Thank you so much, Chris.

[Christine Cain]

Thanks, Carrie. And thank you for this podcast. I mean, I'm one of your avid listeners and I just thank God. It's miraculous what he's done with this. It really is.

[Carrie Newhoff]

It is crazy, man. I'm still in the basement where I started it. Well, actually he was in an upper floor office in my house. But yeah, it's nuts. But that, as you say, is the faithfulness of God. To think that this has the footprint by the grace of God that it does, the influence with our generation and younger generations is pretty. I'm very thankful and surprised on a regular basis, but people like you make it good. And so thank you so much for coming back on the podcast and until next time. So I'm really grateful, Christine. Thank you.

[Christine Cain]

Thanks, mate. Thank you so much, man.

[Carrie Newhoff]

I told you that one didn't disappoint. I mean, we went everywhere and we could have gone a lot longer, but I know you've got time limits too, and we'll have Christine back again in the future. So hopefully that was really helpful to you. I would love to hear from you in the comments. You know the best place to leave a comment, not only where you listen to this podcast, but inside the Art of Leadership Academy. That's where you're going to find the show notes. So if you go to theartofleadershipacademy.com join over 18, probably 20,000 leaders by the time you hear this who are now part of the Art of Leadership Academy, you can join for free. Today we have some amazing discussions on all of these episodes Inside the Academy. Join 20,000 church leaders inside the Academy. Next episode we have John Acuff. Also coming up, we have Todd Wilson. We've also got Robbie Galady and a whole lot more coming up on the podcast. If you are enjoying this episode, please leave a rating and review. We would love that. Maybe share it with a friend as well. And I hope this episode helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.