← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 801 | When the Ministry Playbook Doesn't Work Anymore: Robby Gallaty and Vick Green on the Keys to Discipleship and Revival
01:11:33
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The Art of Leadership Network.
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You know, Billy Graham, he said by his own words that they found out that six months after the campaigns, they couldn't find 80% of the people who responded. You got to have both. You got to be spiritually renewed. You got to be going to the porch. You got to be a disciple. But you have to be a disciple who actually makes a disciple.
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Welcome to the Carrie Newhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us, and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, if you've ever had some success, success in the past and you run the play and it doesn't work, what do you do? That's what we're gonna talk about when it comes to discipleship. And I know a lot of pastors that I talk to are saying, yeah, it's just not working. I think Covid kind of revealed we have a discipleship crisis in the church. So Robbie Galady is joining us along with Vic Greene. Robbie ran a playbook on discipleship that was very, very successful for a number of years as a pastor. And then 2020 hit and it fell apart. He was training other church leaders on how to do working. Well, what do you do when that happens? That's what we're going to talk about in today's episode. If you want show notes, you can get it at carrienewhoff.com shownotes or go to theartofleadershipacademy.com join 20,000 leaders who are in the academy. We have great conversations on topics like this. And guess what? None of the funk that you find on the Internet. Just leaders talking to each other. Kind of like a continuation of the conversations we do. Robbie Galady is a senior pastor of Long Hollow Church in Hendersonville, Tennessee, outside of Nashville. He's the author of multiple books. He formed Replicate Ministries to empower churches to activate their unique disciple making movement. Vic Green is a pastor, coach and consultant. He's the CEO of Replicate Ministries, a ministry that trains now over 4,000 churches to create their unique disciple making strategy, culture, and vision. So without further ado, I think this is going to be good for your heart. And listen to the end. We had some really fascinating, fascinating conversations at the end of the interview that we kept in for you guys. So anyway, here we go. My conversation with Robbie Galady and Vic Green. Well, welcome to the podcast. Good to have you, Robby. Good to have you, Vic. And I want to start at a story I think a lot of people can relate to. You show up to Long Hollow where you currently serve, and you got a playbook that you've run numerous times. I mean, you're a strategic leader. And, Robbie, maybe I'll start with you. Was all about discipleship. And this time it didn't work. All the old strategies, tricks like, it's not working. What happened? Can you paint the scene for us?
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Yeah. Well, I tell people the greatest gift the Lord gave me in coming to Long Hollow is that I failed miserably at my discipleship process that had worked in the two churches previously. And we've known each other for a while. And you've known I've always been about making disciples. And I went to my first church. I was there for about three years, 65 people. Your audience can relate to this. It was a small town. I didn't know how to do much. I was only a Christian for three years, removed from a drug addiction, alcohol addiction, years ago. And I went in and I said, I only know how to do two things. Preach the word expositorily and make disciples. And by God's grace, with my past and my background, God just grew the church, not just numerically, but spiritually. And then I went to Chattanooga at Brainerd Baptist and did the same thing. Went in there and discipled the people. My wife, Candy, she discipled the women. And by God's grace, the church grew numerically. So I thought, you know, man, I've got this disciple making thing figured out, and I'm going to go to Long Hollow now. For those who aren't familiar with Long Hollow, Long Hollow was a church led by a beloved pastor. My predecessor for 17, 18 years, David Landreth was his name. Carrie, were you familiar with David Landreth at all?
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I think I knew him.
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Now, you know, a lot of people don't know Pastor David because he rarely spoke outside of the church. He didn't write a book, didn't preach conferences. But he was passionate about investing in the local church, and God honored that. And so David came in, I think, 96, 97. You've been to our church before. We're in the middle of a farmland. I mean, there are farms and fields everywhere and just north of Nashville. And God used him in a mighty way. The church grew from about 188, 200 to, when I got here, almost 7,000. I mean, really crazy. Miraculous, Carrie. Just miraculous growth. And if you asked David back then, he'd say, I don't know God. It's God, you know, which it was. But I came in and followed him.
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So he was retiring or Moving somewhere else or what was happening with him.
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He died of cancer.
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Oh, my gosh. I'm so stoked.
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That's what happened. Yeah, it was just a crazy story. At the height of the ministry, Long Hollow has five campuses all around Nashville. Church has grown amazing in amazing ways, both physically and spiritually. And then he gets cancer in 2013, he. With Herculean strength. I watched some of those sermons. He preached on interferon cancer medicine every week, never missed. And then at the height of the ministry, David dies of colon cancer. He didn't think he was going to die. No one else thought he was going to die. And he passes away. So what I came into. And I could do a whole episode, obviously, on this, but what I came into was following a pastor that the church didn't want to lose. Number two, they didn't want a new pastor and definitely didn't want me. And we were different on a lot of ways. David was six' six like myself and one lady. One Sunday after being here, Carrie, you'll get a kick out of this. Came up to me and said, brother Robbie, the only thing similar between you and Pastor David is your height. I didn't know what that meant, you know, but it wasn't good.
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It wasn't good, man.
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So when I got here, I brought in this discipleship strategy to a church that was highly evangelistic. When I was in the interview process, they asked me this question. And Vic remembers this, but they asked me this question. They said, how do you feel? My church was a little over 2,000 in Chattanooga. They said, how do you feel of coming into a church three times the size of yours? A church that baptized in 2013, over a thousand people? I never heard of churches like this. Full disclosure, I didn't really know. I mean, I knew they were out there, but I never knew of one. And then in 2014, Robbie, we baptized almost 1,000 people. How do you feel about coming into a church that baptized that many? I sat back and I looked around and I said, wow, praise the Lord. And I asked him this question, which changed everything. I asked them one question. What did you do with the people? And thank God for their honesty. They looked around and they said, that's what we want to talk to you about. And what I found after was, this is not uncommon. I listened to your podcast. It's one of the ones I listen to every week. You have people on here all the time that say the back door is as big or bigger than the front door. So people are leaving. And essentially, in those Two years. And this is not an indictment against our church. This is the reality. Vic will tell you he's counseled, consulted with hundreds and thousands of churches through the years. This is not Long Hollow. This is most churches. Most churches have them going out the back as fast as they were coming in the front. And so I thought, what they need is discipleship. Surely they're gonna love this strategy, disciple making. So year one, Carrie, I got here, I said, this is what discipleship is. It's three to five, men with men, women with women. You meet for 12 to 18 months. You get in the word to the word gets into you, and you replicate your life into the life of another. First year Vic, I think it was 5, 600, got into discipleship groups, right? It was the new pastor. We're getting behind him. Year two, the number grew to over 1500. Carrie, I'm doing the math. I'm like, you know, it's not magic, it's math. You know, I'm like, I'm doing the math. Next year, 3,000. Next year, 45. And by year three, I tell people it was the wake up call of my entire life because I decided to audit the groups because I wanted to figure out, are we actually meeting in disciple making groups? Because, you know, that's a junk drawer term. Today. You can wrap discipleship on anything. Sure. And here's what I found. I found that most of the people were meeting on Sunday night or Monday night, watching football, eating pizza, and calling it discipleship. And so I tell people, this is funny. Funny. Not really funny, but when I got involved year three, I successfully grew the groups from over 1500 back down to about 5, 600. So I know how to kill a discipleship ministry. And this is about a year or two before Vic comes on. But it was the greatest insight in my life because I realized one thing, and this is a great leadership principle. I teach a lot of people that I've learned from this. I led Carrie with strategy, not vision. Vic has helped me with this a lot. Vic is a whiteboard ninja. When we hear from him and Tom, I mean, Vic is a exercise machine. He'll tell you, but he and I process what I did wrong. Here's what I mean. I went into the church and said, this is what discipleship is. You're passionate about discipleship. Gary, you know this. We could tell him what it is. We can say, this is what it looks like. This is what you read. These are the resources. This is how you meet. This is how long you meet. But they'll never continue to do it generationally. You'll never replicate the process where the disciple becomes a disciple maker unless you lead with vision. Vision is what does the. And you know this. But what does the future look like when you get there? And how do you know when you've arrived in order to get there in the first place? I liken it to this and I'll let Vic talk, but here's what I liken it to. If your kids, Carrie, have never gone to Disney World in Florida. Have you ever been to Disney World? Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Okay, don't shoot us, don't email us. By the way, I know some people don't like. But anyway, I like I go take my kids to Disney World.
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Yeah, yeah, we've been there a bunch with the kids without.
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Yeah, okay. I like to. So imagine if you have never been to Disney World. You're in Toronto, you've never been to Disney World. Your kids are real little, you know, three, four. And I go to you and I say, carrie, here's the deal. I'm going to show you why you need to go to Disney World. And I take you to the Hertz dealership and I say, kerry, you're going to love that. Hold on, hold on. You're going to love this. This is a 4Runner. Now, don't, don't, don't get upset, but this Forerunner has serious radio. Carrie, it has radio tire. Those tires will hug, especially in this cold. It's going to hug the road. Oh, by the way, a sunroof. When the kids get upset, you pull that sunroof back. Oh, power windows, power seats. Here it is, the four. Oh, by the way, here's a map to get there. If I leave you with that, are you excited to go to Disney World?
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I'd rather fly. We've done the drive. We've done the drive.
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You're like Toronto, let's.
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We survived as a family. We did.
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The Griswold is all over again, right?
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Pretty much. But it wasn't closed, so that's good news.
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Okay, so that is strategy. If you're a leader, I would imagine the reason your people aren't following you to where you're heading is because you've been giving them strategy and not vision. Here's vision. Vision is I go to you and say, carrie, what is the name of your girl? You have a daughter?
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Just two sons.
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Two sons. What's the name of your son?
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Jordan and Sam.
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Okay, Jordan is four years old. Okay, Sam is two years old. I say Jordan and Sam, let Me take you to Disney World. Carrie, when you walk down Main street with Jordan, and Jordan looks up and sees Mickey Mouse for the first time in the flesh, he is going to be overwhelmed. And that night when you tuck him into bed, he's going to look over to you and he's going to say, daddy, you're the best dad in the world. When Sam sees the roller coaster of the mine train for the first time, and you make a memory on that roller coaster, and you walk home and he looks up and says, daddy, thank you, with a tear in his eye. Thank you for taking me to Disney World. Now, if you're listening, you're saying, I will crawl to Disney World for that. I didn't know this years ago. I thought I knew this, but I had to learn this. I didn't lead at Long Hollow with vision. I didn't tell people, listen. When you make disciples who make disciples, you're going to live a fulfilled, abundant, satisfied, victorious, not easy, but sustainable life in Christ. You're going to be able to feel confident in the Word. You're going to be able to share your faith without fear. You're going to be able to navigate temptations in life. That's the greatest lesson I learned from Long Hollow.
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Coming in, man. That's a great lesson. Vic, how did you come into the picture? How did you guys get connected?
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Yeah, I was in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I was working with a church. I did college ministry for years, which I loved, is lsu. And so we got to do some amazing things there. We were trying to figure out what does disciple making look like when you're not a college student? Like when you don't have all the time and you don't have all the relationships. And so as we started to try to figure that out in the church space and with our adult congregation, we were trying to figure out how do we get our people reading the Word? How do we get people memorizing Scripture, sharing their faith, being confession, repentance. What does that look like? Life on life, discipleship. And that was in 2016. And so we kind of come up with a plan on a whiteboard of a discipleship group that people are holding people accountable. And then I actually got on Google and was like, is anybody else doing this? And that's when I got connected with Robbie. They were like, hey, there's this Robbie guy. He's doing an event in Atlanta. I was like, guys, we got to get over there. And so Our team went 2016 to one of our events. And I remember the cool story was I went, could connect, like, loved everything that Robbie and team was saying. I went and did my bathroom break. And on the way back, I'm like, I'm quitting my job and I'm going to go be a part of what Replicate Robbie is doing. And I was like walking down the hallway and the Holy Spirit just says, how can you leave the chapel, which is my previous church, how can you leave the chapel without something you believe so strongly in? And it was, there's the Holy Spirit saying, take it back and start doing it in Louisiana. And so didn't say anything, said, thanks so much, Robbie. We actually had him come down and we started doing it in Baton Rouge, took off. We started to see some of the things that Robby started to struggle with at Long Hollow. We started to see success. And so as we started to talk of like, hey, why is it not working in Long Hollow? What's working where you are? How do we do this at Long Hollow and for other churches? That was 2020. And so we moved here about six years ago and started Replicate Ministry. And it's been a fun ride ever since.
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This episode is brought to you by LifeStone Ministries. If you teach an adult Sunday school class, you know the pressure. You got to walk in prepared. You got to have something meaningful to say. You got to be ready when somebody asks you a question you weren't expecting. You got to keep your class engaged when everybody else's mind is wandering. I want to tell you about a resource that's been helping teachers do exactly that for generations. It's called Adult Bible teacher from LifeStone Ministries. Adult Bible Teacher gives you verse by verse exposition of every week's lesson. It gives you built in discussion questions, practical points, research helps, and lesson prep notes everything you need to walk into your classroom with confidence. And it's built on the same comprehensive approach as the Bible Expositor and Illuminator, one of the most trusted adult curriculum resources in the country. It's available in standard and large print editions. You were asked to teach. Let adult Bible teacher help you do it. Well, you can head to lifestoneministries.org to order or to learn more. That's lifestoneministries.org Today's episode is brought to you by Compassion. Jesus led with compassion and he was moved with compassion to heal the sick, feed the hungry, and teach the crowds. When we as church leaders lead with a posture of compassion, just as Jesus did, it changes everything. Personally, I've been working with Compassion International for years, and it's a ministry that Lives up to its name. They understand that when we focus on showing compassion, we can transform the lives of people around the world and also the people we serve in our local church every Sunday. I've seen this change my church. It's changed my life and my heart. And you're going to see it in yours, too. Compassion International offers resources, events, and actual experiences to help you lead your church family into action. Living out the calling to love our neighbors and. And go make disciples. It'll change your church, your community, your faith, and you. And in doing this, your church family will be releasing children from poverty in Jesus name. Compassion is a great organization that's gonna help your church be a city on the hill. So check them out@compassion.com carrie to download free resources and learn more. That's compassion.com C-A-R e y oh, cool. Okay, so we got the stories intersected. Robbie, I want you to pick it up again, because five years in attendance is half of what it was under your predecessor. People are criticizing you. You're kind of burnt out, you're exhausted. And that's when you find yourself really struggling deeply. What was sort of the low for you and I take it, you know, just because you realize I need a vision doesn't mean that people respond to it immediately. Right? Like, this process of rebuilding takes a minute. So walk us into the low.
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Well, the lowest part was about to come because Covid was on the horizon. So not only have we got.
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But wait, there's more.
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It was a great time to start a new job.
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It was awesome coming right at you. You know, it's like.
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So you came over in 2020, did you, Vic?
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Yeah. We moved from Louisiana to Tennessee, and three months later, there was Covid. It was great.
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I've heard you say this, Carrie. Covid was a blessing and a curse for a lot of people and some of us simultaneously. I mean, there was good and bad
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from COVID It revealed a lot. Crisis is an accelerator, and it's a disruptor. It's also a revealer. And it showed us a lot about ourselves, about the church, about the state of discipleship.
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Yeah, yeah, here's the line. I use, Vic. And I use this a lot. I tell people Covid gave the American church a national test on disciple making. And by and large, we all flunked. Right? Cause we thought. Here's what we thought. We thought naively, that our people could own their faith and sustain their faith, disconnected from the body of Christ. We just assumed that. And I mean, you remember those days I mean, when the first week of COVID hit and everybody's watching from online, and it's kind of a novelty, and it's. I'm sitting on the couch and I got my kids there, and we're going to watch the church service, and you're taking your phone and you're doing selfies, hashtag preaching and pancakes with Pastor Robbie, you know, everybody's excited. Pastor Kerry, we get to watch you up. That was great. Week one. But by week two or three, it's always, if y' all don't get in here and listen, I'm going to be. But that. But, dad, we don't want to listen to you. I'm like, I don't want to listen to me either. You know, it's like one of those things. And by week five or six, Carrie, you watch a sermon casually, if at all, right?
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You're cooking breakfast, doing the dishes, getting some laundry on.
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Yes. And so, like you said, it was a revealer of a crack in the foundation that we thought wasn't there, but now we knew was there. And so not only did I have the challenges of a new congregation, the challenges of a failed discipleship ministry, but then I had Covid on the horizon coming, and I realized. So a friend of mine came to me, and I was burning out. I didn't know I was burning out at the time, but I was burning out. And I had a close friend come to me and say, robbie, if you don't slow down, you're not going to make it. You're going to burn out or fizzle out or do some fallout from something you don't want to do. And so he said, you need to learn how to sit with the Lord. Now, I didn't know Carrie much about silence and solitude, for the record. In fact, when I would read those books, like many of you listening, and I would get through Donald Whitney or Richard Foster or John Ortberg, I would get to the Silence and Solitude chapter, and I would flip the page and think, what in the world does that ancient practice have anything to do with my 21st century life, really me? Not to mention, as you probably can tell, I'm ADHD high D driven, you know, like a lot of people listening. And so sitting in silence was not something that was enticing at all. But I was desperate. And so I went into the Dark Ages. So, long story, but I went into the Dark Ages because a lot of Protestant material, they don't talk about this. So I went into the Dark Ages. Ignatius of Loyola, Thomas Merton Desert. Mothers and fathers, which, if you're getting nervous about that. I mean, I was nervous, too, to be honest. But I knew a practice Vic and I learned from being in Louisiana, and that is how to eat seafood. We learned that you eat the fish and you spit out the bones. I was really good. I spit a lot of bones out. But I developed this practice, and here's what I did. I started to sit with the Lord in silence and solitude. Started at 10 minutes. It's like a muscle. Started at 20. Then it went to an hour, and then it went to two hours every night. And I had this insatiable desire to be in the presence of the Lord. And I had to relearn how that worked. Because spiritual disciplines, Vic and I, you know, we teach it, we practice it, most of them have this law of reciprocity built in. Here's what I mean. When you read the Bible, you read it to get a word. When you pray, you pray to get an answer. You don't do it in a sense farther, but that's really what you're doing. You give not to receive, but you do give back. Silence and solitude. I had to learn and I retrained. My mind is unlike any other spiritual discipline. Here's why. Most of the time, you get nothing tangibly. Not because I was. And you've done this, but not because I wasn't looking. I mean, I'd sit on the porch. I went to the porch every night, and I would gaze into the heavens or the skies, and I would look for the stars and the consolation of a form of a Hebrew word. Never saw it, but look for it, you know, I would listen for the voice of heaven. Robbie, do you. You know, none of that. I look for it. But three months in, I'm walking inside my house and I got nothing. And I remember just being candid with the Lord and honest. And I said. I looked up and I said, God, what was that? Hour and a half? I got nothing. What was that? And the Holy Spirit, as he always does, just lovingly just spoke to my heart and said, robbie, no, you didn't get nothing. You got everything because you got. Watch this. Because you got me and I got you. Wow. And that's when I realized I was not trying. I always realized from up to that point, my spiritual life was me trying to get something from God. And God just was saying, I just want to be with you. I miss your company. I would say this to those listening, I bet God misses your company, some of you. And so I would sit with the Lord in his presence, no agenda. My prayer life changed. Carrie, I can go into this longer, we don't have time. But I'll just tell you, my prayer life changed. I was really good. I don't know about you, but I was really good at trying to tell God how to do his job better. If you just bless this, this, this and this. I mean, God, everything will go well for me. I was not good at listening. I was really good at getting my agenda into heaven. I was not good at downloading God's heavenly agenda into my heart. In my life, I'm sitting with the Lord about six months in. This is where my whole life changed. And this is really one of the. Some of the practices Vic and I have talked about with these renew shifts in my life. There were five shifts that happened in my life to create a sustainable disciple making movement. But I'll just tell you one of the main ones. I was with the Lord and I started complaining about. I mean, at that time, Covid was raging political unrest. You remember this racial, unusual.
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There was a lot to complain about.
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George Floyd had just passed. And I mean, there's a lot going on in the church world. And I just said, lord, you gotta fix the problems in my church. You've gotta fix. Start with the staff. We're siloed. While you're at it, fix the deacon body. And if you have extra time, fix the community. You know, the church, the deacon. And after I finish having a. I call it a pity party with the Lord. You've been there. The Lord's like, all right, big boy, are you done? Yes, I'm done, Lord. You know, and he spoke to my heart, this. And it really set the course of my life. I've never been the same. He spoke to my heart and said, robbie, the problem is not the church. The problem is not the staff. The problem is not the deacon bites. Not even the community. The problem to revival coming to Long Hollow is you. Here's the line he gave me. You're the blood clot to revival coming to Long Hollow. Now you know my past. I said to the Lord, what do you mean? I'm not addicted to drugs. I don't drink alcohol anymore. I don't have a porn addiction, by God's grace. But here's the thing about the Holy Spirit. He has this amazing ability, Carrie, to put his finger on the pulse of the problem, if you ask him. And he began to show me. No, the problem with you is you're prideful. Prideful? What do you mean? Oh, no, Robbie, you're a master at fishing in the pond of approval of other people. You know how to take credit from me better than the best. You can post an online picture and act like it's about numbers, but it's really to stroke your own approval and acceptance. This is the one that got me Gary. And I think a lot of pastors and leaders, if you're listening, you struggle with this. You might not even know it. I didn't. He began to show me, Robbie, you are way too jealous. And I'm like, what do you mean, jealous? I've got a great ministry. I've got an amazing church. I've got amazing wife, two boys. I've got discipleship. What am I jealous of? And here's what the Lord showed me, Robbie. You're jealous if the pastor down the street baptized more people than you. You wouldn't say it, but you think it. You're jealous if a guy writes a book and gets more traction. You're jealous if someone posts and they get more life. And here's what he showed me, Robbie. If you can't pray for the church down the street to be blessed in spite of Long Hollow, I'll never bless your church. Let me remind you, this is not your kingdom. This is mine. So the Lord had to break me on the porch before he could build me back up. That led into December 15, 2020, where I heard as clear as day. It wasn't audible, but it could have been because it was as clear as day. Two words, spontaneous baptism. Now, I wasn't raised in church, so I didn't know much about that. I was actually raised Catholic growing up, and so I didn't know about spontaneous baptism. I was christened as a child. I'd heard of people abusing it. But then when I read the Bible, I realized every person baptized in the Book of Acts was spontaneous. Every one of them. You know this. And so, anyway, the Lord told me to. The Lord put in my heart spontaneous baptism. December 20, 2020. The last Sunday. We're gonna meet in person, Carrie, at Long Hollow before we're off for four weeks because of the shutdown. I offered that spontaneous baptism to the lowest attended services ever in the five years I'd been here up to that point.
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So you're hitting the bottom, attendance wise.
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Oh, bro, look, look. And here's the thing. God put on my heart the number 102 days before.
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Now, I recorded video out to our staff of, like, praying. We're all, like, just Robbie being crazy again. Like, we'll Pray for it. But this is a little wild.
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Yeah, yeah. Vic and the team are like, okay, Pastor, really? We've never seen 100 people spontaneously baptized after a student camp. Most often, you're going to do it. You're going to do it in Covid. Come on. God's going to do it in Covid. Really? But little did I know at the time, it was prophetic. I didn't know it, but I said, I'm believing God for 100 people. I think we're going to see 100 people baptized. I get up and offer the invitation. Spontaneous baptism. Lois attended services. And by God's grace, at the end of that day, I left. We baptized 99 people. Now, I've never seen anything like it before. Some people might say that's not a lot for us. That was a lot of people. Especially in one day. Especially in Covid. Nobody's there. I go back to the porch and the Holy Spirit's waiting on me like he always had. And I sat with him on the porch and I thought it was a one and done. I just thought, I will tell my kids about this. I'm gonna tell my grandkids about this. What? Just. And I was emotional, just overwhelmed with emotion. And I closed my eyes. And in that silence, the Lord put this image in my mind. It was the image, Carrie, of heavy raindrops falling before the torrential downpour. And you know when you're outside and the rain starts falling heavy, it's like the bottom's gonna fall out. Little did I know, over the next eight months, we will baptize 1600 people, man. And that in itself, I'm not saying that to impress anybody. But what I'm saying is that in a normal situation is a God sent revival. That in Covid, not to mention four of those weeks where we saw a thousand people baptized in 15 weeks, four of those weeks were online. Seventeen states started to fly and drive in. It was insane.
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And so when they pre Asbury by two years.
- [29:42]
B
Exactly. Pre Asbury, two years. Which is why when Asbury happened, I got to go because I didn't want to miss it. I'd already touched the hem of the garment. Once you're. Once you experience revival, you're ruined in a good way. But here's the thing. So I. I said, God, it's over. And the Lord show me what was on the horizon. The 17 states of people that flew in out of the 1600 in that eight month period. I asked them two questions. And for your listeners, this is important. Number one, is this. Where are you from? Never said. You go back and look at any sermon I've ever preached. They're all online. I've never said fly in, drive in, come. I said, where are you from? And they would say, Maine, Maine, Montana, Montana, Washington State. And I would say, there's a lot of churches between there and here. Why did you come here? Here's what they told me. This was the line that was through every testimony. It was like a thread. Through every testimony. They said this in some form or fashion. The Holy Spirit compelled me to come. I had to come. Here's my takeaway from that. No sermon series, no. No worship music, no song selection, no evangelistic strategy is going to bring that kind of God sent, heaven led revival. But God did, and that changed the course of our church. We're different today, obviously, in a lot of ways because of that moment of time.
- [31:07]
A
Vic, you know, you're watching all this, you're at the center of it. What was your observation of your lead pastor of Robby? And you know, looking back on it, what's your take on that moment? Both the down and then the spontaneous baptism and the subsequent move back up? What's your view?
- [31:28]
C
Yeah, 2020 was like, obviously for so many people is such a memorable year. Like I would say that journey that Robbie went on, you know, it's a journey he went on personally. But then like our staff, he brought our staff along with that. He brought our church along with that. And so I think Robbie's. The personal revival he had was always first and foremost about his relationship with God. But then it spread to the church, it spread to me personally. So, like, I remember so much like 2020 being some of the first times that I practiced those disciplines. It's some of the first times that I really felt like I was leading from prayer, not from planning. And so what was powerful was like too was just watching a friend of mine watching our lead pastor too. Like, you could see the noticeable difference in how he walked into meetings, how he walked into situations. And as a leadership team and as our congregation, like, just again, the leader is the lid of the organization, right? Like, the leader is really one that sets the pace. Like as Robby was setting the pace in pursuing the Lord, setting the pace in confession and repentance, and all these things are leadership following alongside that. And so I think that was kind of the first thing for us and then I think the other. So Robbie and I are like, we both have a burden and a passion for disciple making. After that, everything's very different, the way that we go about it, the way that we think about it. And I think where I typically go, I love planning, I love whiteboarding, love helping think through, you know, our strategy. What I think Robbie really showed and strengthened in me and for how we help churches is that leadership. And anytime we work with the churches, it is a spiritual process before, it's a strategic process. And so often we want to bring change. You know, like one of the lines that we share is that a movement starts by not moving. And that was the lesson that Robby had to teach me, because I'm quick to go to the whiteboard, to my planning, to my own skills. How do we go and manufacture a move of God, manufacture movement? And what Robbie shows, he's like, no, it starts in prayer. It starts with your own personal holiness. And so as we began in that journey, I started to realize, and now as we work with churches, we slow down strategic planning and say, hey, we gotta get before the Lord. What starts a movement is not the planning. It's spiritual renewal in the hearts of the leaders. You said a word earlier, Robbie. You were desperate. I think seeing that desperation, that ultimately has been one of the number one things now for me and my leadership. But then when I'm looking at a pastor and saying, like, can they pull off whatever they're trying to accomplish? How desperate are they for more of God? And if that spiritual renewal and that desperation, if that fire isn't in there, then I'm like, man, there's work that has to be done. Not in. To use your story, Robbie, not in planning, but on the porch, whatever that is for them. But with God, they've got to get to that place. Because everybody has a heart for a disciple making movement. Very few have the grit for it. They have the determination for it, the strength to handle the ups and downs of ministry. And so I think Robbie really showed that and modeled it for me. But then also, it's just shape. Everything we do, movements start by not moving. It starts with that spiritual renewal.
- [35:19]
A
Vic, you said something interesting. You said you noticed the change in Robbie. Like when he walked into the room, when he came into staff meeting, you noticed a change. What did you see?
- [35:33]
C
Yeah, there's a lot there. I think there was. I found a. I think Robbie, there was a peacefulness, there was approachability. There was a. Like, you could tell he had been with the Lord. I think that's probably the best way to say that. That's a very strong statement. But, like, you could tell. And I was like, oh, man. It just the fruits of the spirit, his countenance, all of that. Was there. One of those specifically is too, though. Like, Robbie's a dreamer. And Robbie's, like, always got crazy ideas. And that's again when he sent that video the day before. Like, hunter baptisms. Like, you know, I hate to say it now, knowing how the story unfolds, you know, but I'm like, I roll my eyes. I'm like, I mean, I'll pray for it because you asked, dude. It's not going to happen. Like, and. And so. But his expectancy for God to move, the way I think you said it, Robbie, is we walked in to Sundays, every Sunday, as if there was spiritual gasoline on the floor, and we were waiting for the spirit to light the match every Sunday.
- [36:45]
A
Okay.
- [36:46]
C
And that level of expectancy, like, I hadn't had that since my, like, college ministry, like, early years of following Jesus. That expectancy that says, hey, like, something different is going to happen, like, God is going to move. And it was that desperation that, like, that really sparked, I think, so much of the years ahead of, like, okay, we're going to do this, and this is where we're going, and this is how we're going to endure the hard times.
- [37:12]
A
This episode is brought to you by Church Growth Engine. So why do churches with faithful members, solid preaching, and genuine love for God struggle to flourish in their communities? A lot of growth challenges are actually about removing predictable barriers that prevent churches from becoming everything God has called them to be. Church Growth Engine's guide, why do good Churches get stuck? Identifies 10 fixable problems, including leadership exhaustion cycles, visitor retention gaps, and the we're full illusion. Each challenge includes both symptoms to recognize and practical steps that have helped thousands of churches move from survival mode to thriving ministry. You'll see realistic timelines because lasting change can take a little time. So ready to help your church thrive? Download the free guide today@churchgrowengine.com ActionPlan. That's churchgrowthengine.com ActionPlan. So many churches want to make disciples, and I think one of the things that is fair. Covid was a revealer, and the church changed tremendously in the years after we became more polarized. A lot of pastors said, hey, we didn't make good disciples. Tons of people left. They didn't come back. We thought we had this nailed. And you don't just work at Long Hollow. You've helped thousands of churches study discipleship. You may have partially answered this already. When it comes to the personal renewal and the porch Time and the waiting on God and the silence which pulls from ancient Christian traditions. I just had John Mark Comer on the podcast. I think it was episode 781 or something like that. And he's deep into that and you can sense that. But in evangelical world, that's still a little bit fresh and even controversial. But apart from that, what else are churches missing? I say apart from that because that's the main thing.
- [39:11]
C
Right.
- [39:11]
A
Like, if you're not really spending time with God praying, if he's not breaking you, the strategy doesn't matter. But what are some other common themes that you notice?
- [39:22]
C
Yeah, I think a lot of times when we think about a disciple making movement, so, like take Jesus in the early church. Like, we think of the start of that movement happening in the upper room in Acts 2 and thousands getting saved. You know, in Long Hollow Story, as Robbie was sharing, we think of December 20, 2020. But every season of movement is preceded by a season of readiness. There's that Jesus's movement didn't start in Acts 2 in the early church and everything there. It started three years earlier when Jesus began to invest in his 12 disciples and then call them to lead the movement and his ministry. It was this season of readiness what Robbie would share there. Just as we've been talking the five years of where things went well, went bad, burnout, and then December 2020 hits. That is our readiness season. Every church has to have the season where, man, God, is preparing you for what is ahead. And that movement looks different for every church. But as we started to look back, we said, what are the things three? What are the essential elements that need to be true in a church for them to be movement ready. And so we talked about earlier, just already spiritual renewal was one of those things that we really saw in churches. Like, if there's not a desperation for more of God, then you couldn't start a movement or sustain a movement like that. The desperation is what allows you to really sustain that movement through the ups and the downs. The other two that we ended up naming was disciple making. Culture is the second piece. And so not all church growth equals kingdom growth.
- [41:11]
B
Yeah.
- [41:12]
A
What do you mean by that? Can you unpack that? I think that's important.
- [41:15]
C
Yeah. The idea is, I think you can always, like, there's churches that can be growing and making converts and seeing people come to know Jesus. They can be growing in program attendance, but that doesn't actually mean that they're making disciples.
- [41:31]
A
Got a lot of people watching football and eating pizza.
- [41:34]
C
That's right. That's right.
- [41:36]
B
Not just in Hendersonville either.
- [41:40]
C
There's a philosophy of ministry that comes with that disciple making culture. What we say is it shapes the movement. If Jesus spent over 70% of his time investing in the few and his leaders, he spent way more time with his leaders than the masses. If we flip that equation and expect to see the same results, we're missing it. Robbie, one of your lines that I always come back to is, how do we make Jesus final words our first word?
- [42:14]
B
Well, and here I'd add something too. You're on it. Carrie, this is not all. Church growth equals kingdom growth. That should resonate with a lot of people, especially if you read the New Testament. Because the Pharisees are proof positive that's not the case. They had a big following, but they had no power. They had a relationship. So one of the things I know from studying the Bible and hermeneutical classes and exegetical classroom lessons, we know this. But the words of Jesus are inspired. We wouldn't question that when Jesus speaks, it's an inspired word of God. But here's what I've learned from studying the Bible. Not only are the words inspired, but the actions are inspired. So let me say it this way. Not only is the message inspired, but the method Jesus used is inspired. And you would agree, when Jesus goes to Samaria on that day, at that time at noon, it's not by happenstance the woman is there. When Jesus walks with the disciples through Jericho in the last stop before Jerusalem and this blind beggar, Bartima, that's not by accident. So not only is the message inspired, but the method is inspired and everything along with it. So here's my point. I tell people, if the method of Jesus was to make disciples, you can't divorce yourself from the method God used and expect to experience the blessings of ministry. Jesus gave us a manual for making us out. Now, I know what people would say right away because I was talking to Vic this morning. Lifeway just put out a new study. I'm sure Barna would say the same, but they just put out a new study on is the church making disciples. This just came out February, and basically they found out that the church, by and large, got a grade of a D. They got A. Actually, I think it's not a D. It might be an F. I think it's a 68. They got a 68 out of 100. So they failed. But here's the thing. The number one, the lowest scoring practice or quality of a disciple was sharing their faith. Now this is not odd. We know this. You hear it all the time. Guys, like, we need more people to share their faith. We need to get more people to share Christ. And I'm with you. I believe that. But the problem is when Jesus is not on your mind, he doesn't come out your mouth. That's why you have to get people in the word of God. And here's what I tell people. People always say, where's the evangelism part of your disciple making strategy? It's discipleship. Because you know this. When you get someone to fall in love with Jesus, someone to shepherd and lead their family, someone to love their spouse as Christ loved the church, what happens is they change and they become the greatest apologetic for disciple making to the world. I learned this when I first went to Brainerd, Carrie. I was at that new church, and I felt the pressure like a lot of new pastors to build the church. You know, I wouldn't say this, but you felt that you go to connect. I'm gonna build this church, and I gotta build this church. And the deacons want. And it's all business metrics for biblical. It's all that. And I got up one Sunday early on. And as a preacher, you'll appreciate this, but as a preacher, for those who don't preach, we have multiple conversations going on in our head. Gary, you know what I'm talking about. I'll be speaking out, speaking to you, but I'm looking and saying, what is Susie doing sitting over there today? That's not her. You know what I'm saying? Or why is that guy walking right in the. You know, so we do this. So I'm speaking these words of my sermon, and the Holy Spirit and I are having this conversation, and I look out at my congregation at that time. I just gotten there, and I got caught up, unknowingly in what I call escalator evangelism. Now, people listening will resonate with them. Escalator evangelism. Here's what it means if you come to my church this week and I say, hey, Kerry, so good to see you and your family. Glad you're here. Oh, by the way, do you guys have any friends you can invite to our church at Long Hollow? You say, yeah, I know Vic and Sophie. Great. So you invite Vic and Sophie next week, and the next week I go past. I've already done with you. I go past you and I go to Vic. I say, hey, Vic, good to see you. Do you have any friends that you know could come to Long Hollow? Vic says, yes, I got my friend named Barrett. I say, great, Barrett. Bring Barrett and his wife the next week. I've already forgotten you. I look over Vic and then I go after Barrett and his wife. And here's what happens. We wonder why people are escalating, if that's a word out the back door. Because what we're doing is we're looking over them to get to the next. To get to the next. Now watch this. Here's what the Holy Spirit showed me. This is what the Lord showed me. As I was preaching, the Lord began to show me. Robbie, you can change Chattanooga at the time with the existing people you have in the worship center. And I don't care if you're listening. Your church is 100 or your ministry's 50 or your church is 10,000. Listen to me. If you. Here's what God showed me. You stop trying to grow the breadth of the ministry. That's something I do. You focus on the depth of your disciples, and I'll grow the breath of this ministry. That's very biblical, Carrie. And what happened is as I began to grow people deep, God grew the ministry wide. And so at Long Hollow, now here on the back end two weeks ago, we had the largest attendance, and I'm not saying this to both the largest attendance times 3 of when it went down to the lowest. And people ask me, why would God. Why you think the church is growing now? Why would God send revival to the discipleship guy? I think because he knew we would put this operating system of discipleship, not be deterred, not dismayed, and we would keep it going so that. Watch this. When the app of Revival was downloaded on that operating system, we already had the discipleship ministry in place. And so now what we're seeing is a bunch of people owning their faith, impacting the city, and living out their God given calling for the glory of God. So it's pretty exciting days here now at Long Hollow.
- [47:53]
A
I want to come back to that. Vic, I wonder if you can just Give us the 2 to 5 minute max overview of the Renew framework.
- [48:01]
C
Yeah, so that first piece that we need to see in churches was spiritual renewal. And so what that was is just there's shifts. And as Robby and I started working through it, an acrostic. I feel like we have acrostics for everything. It just kind of spells out renew. But it's really what we began to. What I started to see in Robby. And then ultimately we started to see, hey, that's actually what we need to see for Any pastor as they look to see the start. And so those kind of those five shifts, the first was reliance. That reliance shift was this move from dependence on self to dependence on the spirit. That's what we just talked about, man. It starts with prayer, not with planning. The expectancy shift, it's moving from.
- [48:48]
A
That's the en renew.
- [48:49]
C
That's the en renewal. Yep.
- [48:51]
A
Reliance, expectancy.
- [48:53]
C
Yep. And that's moving from more of the same to more of God. The next one, the N is the necessity shift. And it's this move from moving from working for God to spending time with God. You hear that with Robbie's story of just spending time in silence and presence with the Lord. The next E, the endurance shift. This was moving from pleasing man to pleasing God. And this was all of just the endurance of ministry was that audience of one idea, like man, what is God calling us to? What is God calling you to? And eliminating the distractions and all of the other opinions. And the W, the last one here was moving from an appreciation of God's presence to an all of God's presence. And that was really the idea of like man sometimes in ministry, stories of salvation, of life change, of why we do what we do can become. We can get desensitized to it, you know, and we can lose its freshness. And so it was this idea of man being in awe of what God's doing. And so those became those five shifts as we were looking in that renewal in pastors that we needed to see to help kind of start that disciple making movement.
- [50:14]
A
You know, that's interesting because you look at that renew framework, R E N E W and it's not a classic whiteboard. Here's the forerunner, here's a map, here's the sunroof. It's about your heart, right? It's about getting right with God. Robbie, I'd love to know that. December of 2020, Barna started tracking about a year later the number of pastors who want to quit. And the number was at 42% of pastors gave serious consideration, serious, real consideration, leaving full time ministry. Not long hollow, but like, yeah, I'm going to go sell insurance, like I'm done. And a lot of them left. And that number, you know, dropped a little bit. That was in the 30s. And like a few months ago a new number came out. It's still 24%. A quarter of pastors in America still want to quit. So the good news, it's not almost half, but it's a quarter. And so I'm going To assume my audience is somewhat representative of that number. And maybe one in four people who are pastors listening to this podcast, watching this podcast, still want to quit. You didn't, but I bet you were tempted. What happened?
- [51:30]
B
Yeah, man. Yeah. I learned a lot from this season when I got out of seminary, Kerry, I just tell you, when I graduated, I went to New Orleans Seminary. I went and got my master's, went and got my thm. David Platt was my mentor at the time, and he really encouraged me to get decent company. Yeah. Yeah. He mentored me for two and a half years and changed my life. And he got his PhD. So he said, man, get your PhD. And I went and got it. I loved school. I love education. But what I found out unknowingly is that I got on this denominational ladder of climbing. And what I didn't realize was, I mean, I was climbing because that's what you do, right? You go and you be the president of your state, and then you go BA, Master's, PhD. Yeah. And then you work for the. I mean, it's like that, and you become the president. Your name is written in the annals of eternity. And what I realized was about halfway up the ladder, by God's grace, I was able to get off. And here's what I tell leaders what I've learned through life is the higher you climb a ladder, there's no graceful way down. And we know this because you and I have friends that have fallen and no longer in ministry, and they climb this ladder only to realize years later that that ladder is leaning against the wrong wall. And they've climbed the ladder of self promotion. They've climbed the ladder of selfishness, and it's about them. And again, I don't know all the reasons for why pastors fall. I try to diagnose them. I know you've done it on your show a lot, but I've learned a few things about them, and I've applied it to my life. And here's what I've learned. Three things, and I'll ask you if you're burning out, have you allowed your charisma to outpace your character?
- [53:10]
A
Good way to say it.
- [53:12]
B
Yeah. You can get on a stage, you can hold a crowd. Man, this guy could speak. Character counts to the Lord, right? Who you are to God is way more important than what you can do for God. Number two, has your giftedness outpaced your godliness? And then the final one that I think about is, has the fanfare of social media and the world got in the way of my faithfulness to God. The ministry can become a seductive mistress. We know this. And you get all these accolades and achievements from the Lord. Here's what I learned, Carrie, and this is a very difficult question to swallow, but I'll give it to you. And I've processed it in my own life on the porch. And the Lord showed me. Robby, it's very easy for you to fall in love with the ministry of Jesus and out of love with the Jesus of your ministry at the same time.
- [53:58]
A
Great question, great phrasing.
- [54:00]
B
Pastor leader, listen to me. Do not ever attempt to do ministry for Jesus without intimacy with Jesus. Darren Patrick, who became a friend of mine toward the end. I know you remember Darren Patrick from the Journey church in Acts 29. And Darren, he lost his church, and he built his life back. He worked with Greg Surratt, and he was in the restoration process, and he became a friend of mine. And I went to him and I said, darren, listen, you're a little older than me. You have a church ministry little larger than ours. Can you help me? And I said simply, because I want to learn how to avoid. Because I know you didn't get into ministry. Nobody does. To run the name of Christ through the mud and to lose it, nobody does that. But it happens. And so I said, help me, coach me, counsel me. This line, he told me, carrie, I've never forgotten. And I think about it, and I teach it every time. Here's what he said. He said, robbie, the number one reason I burnt out is the Bible became a tool to use and not a treasure to behold. He said, it's really good for podcast and blog posts, and it's really good for Instagram comments. You can post pictures on Facebook. I used it in sermons, I used it in books. But it didn't nourish my soul. And I feel like a lot of pastors like me, you get in this rat race of being institutionalized and domesticated, and you start people pleasing. I don't want to let anybody down. And you feel tired. And one of the things that really nourished my heart was this, is that Jesus never promised us an easy life, Gary. He promised us an easy yoke. He said, come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Rest for your soul. RT Kendall's a mentor of mine. He's a church member. He's a mentor, and he's a great man of God. Followed Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones at the Westminster Chapel for 25 years. You're familiar with him, for those who don't know, but the first phone call we had by FaceTime, and it's funny to me that a 90 plus year old man, 92, now FaceTimes, that's all he wants to do is FaceTime. But anyway, he's like, you got FaceTime? Yes, Dr. Kendall. So I get on first. FaceTime. Gary, he told me this line. I want to give it to your audience. He said, the greatest freedom in life. This is a 90 year old man. The greatest freedom in life, Ravi, is if you can get to the place when you have nothing to prove and no one to impress.
- [56:17]
A
Going back to why you didn't quit, that's all super helpful. But there was this regenerative kind of moment for you as the church went down. You were building yourself back up like you were being touched by God in these areas at the same time. And so quitting wasn't a temptation. Am I hearing that right?
- [56:39]
B
Yeah, good question. Yeah, thank you. Vic said the line earlier, and I would say it this way, I had to spend time in the presence of God. Every great movement of God begins by not moving. What I mean by that is this. I had to go get in the presence of God for God to do a work on me before he could ever do a work through me. And I think so many times leaders want to shortcut the process. So let me ask you a couple questions. How many times? When was the last time you had an unhurried, quiet time with God? See, here's the problem with leaders, Gary, is that they don't have an interior life that is able to sustain the outward attacks of the world. And so they go into battle to make disciples and change the world and preach and teach and build a church. But they haven't spent time with God. So they're exporting what hasn't been imported in their life. Leonard Ravenhill used to say, if Jesus returns, he's not gonna cleanse the pews, he's gonna start with the pulpit. The leaders. Why? Because the ship that raises all the tide, the tide that raises all the ships at port is the pastor, the leader, the ministry leader. So I would say I had to get along with the Lord for him to begin to build this interior. And I was a discipleship guy, so I was already doing these things. But I had to get along with the Lord to get a word from God. I had to develop a rhythm. Watch this. Of working from rest, not for rest. See, many of us work for rest, meaning we work all week and then we're Going to go. And we try to get everything done on our calendar so we can go on that seven day vacation. I even heard you talk about that. Only to just go on vacation to come back to work. I mean, it's like we're working for rest. I developed a rhythm working from rest where I have these rhythmic cycles in my life that I start to slow down, stop and truly Sabbath, right? Not just turn off, you know, let me turn off the phone, turn off the computer, do a silent retreat. Here's another thing. Incorporate silence and solitude in your life. I would start with five to ten minutes a day. I do it the same way. People ask me, what do you do? So I'm 46, 10. I do it in reverse every time. I do this every time. Be still and know that I'm God and I'm silent. Be still and know that I am. Be still and know. Be still, be. I do that every time. And then I sit in the presence of God just to be with him, not to get something from him. And I think if you start to incorporate some of these disciplines that are life giving for you. Remember, soul care is never selfish. It's always strategic. If you're not healthy, everyone else suffers. So I would say be a disciple before you make disciples. I hope that answered the question.
- [59:18]
A
I'm saying a lot. Vic, how about you? What rhythms? How have they changed in your life, say in the last five, ten years?
- [59:26]
C
Yeah, I would say I've said a few different ways, but to kind of name it, specifically the idea of prayer not being a rubber stamp to my planning as a leader and to my ministry and to how I spend my time and to what investment relationships I invest in. I think that's the temptation is that like prayer for me, especially before 2020, could been an add on to kind of my responsibilities, opposed to really the fuel for it. And I think that's so much as you look at just any leadership that you're trying, like, I mean, prayer has to be at the focal point of it. And so I think the solitude and prayer, not just in, I think we're talking about those porch moments of just like, hey, how do you pull away and sit in silence for five, ten minutes? Like, truth be told, I'm still not great at that habit. But like prayer being something that is, that is happening throughout my day where I'm constantly like, okay, like God, what next step do we need to take? You know, even in our room when we're working with churches, we get into all this planning space and everybody Starts, okay, I've got this idea. I've got this. And whether they feel stuck or they feel overconfident, there's almost. There's always a moment where we kind of slow down and say, hey, it's a spiritual process. First, let's ask the Holy Spirit to give us clarity, to give us courage, to help us take the next best step. And if you look, that's been throughout it, I think I pray now in those spaces and in my own life. That would be a hallmark of how we lead. Where before, I think it would have been an absence of it. And so really grateful for that.
- [61:16]
A
You're starting to see what happened at Long Hollow five years ago now spread out over the church. We saw it at Asbury, we're seeing it in college campuses, and we've been talking about it a lot on this podcast and in some of the other material I develop, you know, and BARN is tracking it like young men are coming back church. Gen Z is the most spiritually active congregation. They're the people who attend church more than any other demographic. Like, we're starting to see this numerically nudge, particularly over the last 12 months. And I'm wondering what your take on that is. What are the upsides? What are the downsides, if there are any? I mean, I don't like to throw water on a fire, but, like, do you have any words of encouragement or caution for those who are in the midst of it right now?
- [62:04]
B
I think you're. I'll just give a plug for your five big trends. Our staff read it together every year, but one of them was, people are more interested in an encounter than a lecture. Bam.
- [62:15]
A
Paraphrasing. No, you're right. I'm still working on the language for that. It'll hit me one day.
- [62:20]
B
No, I'm making up.
- [62:21]
A
But they want an experience, an encounter with God, not just a presentation or a performance or information. You're bang on, Robby.
- [62:29]
B
Yeah, And I thought about that with our team. I thought, let's unpack what Kerry's saying here, because here's what I was thinking. We live in a world today where we don't have a loss of information or a lack of information. I mean, whereas in the old days, you have to remember, it wasn't very long ago we were in one car, families. And if dad went to church, then everybody goes and you don't have a choice. But then before that, we had no car. Right. So then the only way you went to church is if you could walk. And so everybody heard Brother Bob. And Brother Bob was the best thing we had because he was the only thing we had. Well, think of the pressure of a leader, teacher, preacher, podcaster, when you have access to a plethora of options.
- [63:06]
A
Now you're competing against the best preachers in the world every single day.
- [63:12]
B
And it's not fair. I get it. I'm not saying. And now we're competing against AI, right? I mean, that's what we got, AI coming.
- [63:18]
A
Oh. In my new book, I asked the question, what if one day the top preacher in America is an AI preacher?
- [63:26]
B
I can't wait for that book I heard you mentioned. Yeah.
- [63:28]
A
Come on, man. What do you do? That's a real possibility, man.
- [63:34]
B
He could do all your exegesis that took you 15 minutes and literally five seconds. Basically.
- [63:39]
A
Is Sabbath better? Let's be honest. No, I'm kidding. I mean, I'm making fun, but no, you're right, you're right. Content was scarce. And it's not. It's not.
- [63:49]
B
Yeah. So I would say. But here's the thing, though. When I hear about AI and the influx of that which I use AI, I don't use the right sermons, and you shouldn't either. But I do use it to help research and come up with ideas or synthesize things. And I think it's really good for those things. Automate things. I think it's good for that. But here's the reality. We live in a culture now when no one can tell reality from what's fake. Nobody can.
- [64:14]
A
1,000%. No, it's gone. That ship has sailed.
- [64:18]
B
Listen, even the news, there's a news app called Grounded or something where it literally rates right, left wing, middle. And I'm like, that's where we've come today. We can't even trust. Fifty years ago, when you went to your church, that was in your neighborhood. When Pastor Kerry showed up, you started from a posture of trust. And Gen Z, Gen Alpha, today, they don't start from trust, they start from skepticism.
- [64:42]
C
Yep.
- [64:43]
B
You have to earn their trust. Right.
- [64:44]
A
So they're fact checking you.
- [64:46]
B
Yes.
- [64:47]
A
With what facts?
- [64:49]
B
They still don't believe. All that to say. I'm not trying to be a Debbie Denver. What I'm saying is what that's doing is, in my estimation is that's setting us up for something real, something with integrity, something that's long lasting and something that has a history to it that is the Bible and the church. I think this is not a setback. I actually think it's a setup for us as believers. To really show people, hey, this is a book that's been around now. 66 different books, 40 different authors, three different continents, three different language, all written about the same metanarrative of a man who came to redeem mankind. And it's provable and it's archeologically supported, and it's the Bible. And I think we're gonna see in the days ahead a return to truth like that, something we can hold and tangibly touch and read that's true, rather than something that's a facade online. And so I would say I'm excited about this. That's what renewal is doing, Vic. And I's concern is, will it be sustained? Yeah, because mountaintop experiences anybody can experience. Vic, Tell them we want to see something that lasts. Carrie, you want this to outlive you?
- [66:01]
A
I would love to see the tide of history reversed.
- [66:03]
C
That's right. Yeah. I think that we said earlier in there that every movement starts by not moving. And I think that's the role that spiritual renewal fits in this. But I think the other side can be true as well. Is that the way that a move becomes a movement is with disciple making. And I think that's what is so powerful about what we've experienced since 2020 was there was this amazing move of God, but for it to move to a movement, to be sustained is if we are not actually discipling people and investing in them. And if that's not the priority, if there's not a dedication to disciple making, it really just. It becomes a moment, but not a movement. And it's really similar. You know, you think about John Wesley and George Whitfield and George Whitfield at the end of his life. And he kind of looked with regret who. You know, he has. He led the great awakening and everything there. And he said. He looks and says what John Wesley did. He goes, my ministry was like a rope of sand compared to John Wesley.
- [67:08]
B
Yes. Watch this.
- [67:09]
C
Because he made disciples, and he says, revival can be great. That's fantastic. We want the great Awakening, but if we don't attach disciple making with it, it's a moment in history. It's not a movement.
- [67:25]
B
You know, Billy Graham, I think I got to study Dr. Graham when I was in school. I think after a while, he got convicted about what happened to the people after they had these massive crusades where hundreds and thousands would respond. So he partnered with Dawson Trotman, who was a big revivalist navigators, and they did an audit on the people who responded to his crusades. Kerry, here's what they found, they found that after six months of a Billy Graham crusade. And again, I'm not knocking Dr. Graham. I love his ministry. I got to meet him before he passed. I love the man, I appreciate what he's done. But he said by his own words that they found out that six months after the campaigns, they couldn't find 80% of the people who responded. See, our problem in America is not an evangelism problem. The problem in America is a disciple making problem. And so I would say you gotta have both. You gotta be spiritually renewed, you gotta be going to the porch, you gotta be a disciple, but you have to be a disciple who actually makes a disciple. And here's what we've learned. Just because you've invested in someone as a disciple, you haven't made a disciple until that disciple has made a disciple. So when we say disciple making, pastors are saying, oh, yeah, we do that Sunday school at our church. No, not exactly part of it. Or we do life groups, small groups, part of it. Not exactly. Or we got lectures and conferences. Not exactly preaching. I preach the word of God. I heard one mega church pastor years ago say, you bring them the church, I'll disciple them. That's not what we're talking about. In fact, that's not what Jesus did. Jesus only spoke to the crowds three, maybe four times total. He spent 95% of his time investing in a smaller group. So, yeah, so we're excited about the revival, but we want it to sustain and last and not just fizzle out.
- [69:04]
C
And I would say too, if you look at the movement of Jesus, the movement of Jesus all through the Book of Acts, and what we long for is that ministry is happening less in one place, but it's happening across our people, where they live, where they work, where they play. You know, as you look at the Book of Acts, we think about it in Paul and Peter and we think of these kind of mountaintop moments. But the early church movement is behind everyday people making disciples in the everyday places.
- [69:35]
A
Yeah. And we're talking about the equivalent of supermarkets, houses, backyards, factories, hospitals.
- [69:44]
C
Yes. And that's where, if you go and trace back, even from December 2020, what we get excited about are how those stories started. Something that now has spread to fire pits and backyards and neighborhoods that are in workplaces as they're sharing their faith. That's happening in family. Discipleship in the home. Like ministry is not happening only within the church, in our programming, but more importantly, it's happening through our people in everyday places, in Their circles of influence.
- [70:15]
A
Long live the fire pit. All right, well, the good news, the good news for everybody is you guys have taken a lot of what we talked about and a lot more, including the Renew framework. And you got a brand new book called the Movement Ready Church. It's out, it's available everywhere. I'm guessing people are going to want to dig even a little bit deeper than the book. So if there is a website someplace to follow you guys or the movement on social, where would they find you Online?
- [70:42]
C
Yeah, you can get the book wherever it's old. You can get really our Movement Ready framework and many other things@ replicate.org we actually do one day trainings all across the country and we have an on.
- [70:54]
A
You've done thousands of churches, right?
- [70:56]
C
Yeah, we've been so replicate started in 2008 and so it's about 17 years around disciple making and multiplication and we have just started, we just passed 4,000 churches coached and trained around discipleship and multiplication. And so really this book is just it's toolkit 2.0 for us. It's the learnings that started in 2020 and now what we walk churches through regardless of size or denomination. And so we put all these learnings in the book, but we also do one day trainings across the country pop up like Movement Ready Days and we do an on demand course around it as well. So all that can be found@ replicate.org
- [71:39]
A
Robbie, where can people find you?
- [71:42]
B
They can find me at Long Hollow. I'm pastoring Long Hollow.
- [71:47]
A
Just go line up. Where are you from? We're from Carrie's podcast. We are listening in Germany and we're here.
- [71:54]
B
No, they can connect through that. I think Vic said it best. One of the things we're trying to do, Carrie, is this is not a philosophical book or theoretical, doctrinally sound, high level book. This is very practical, it's very real, it's very raw. As you heard us talk. It's very vulnerable. I'm very vulnerable in the book. But I think that resonates with people because people want to know, okay, can I trust this guy and will it work in my church? And I think Vic, and I give Vic the credit. Vic is a master of exercises and worksheets and pictures. So I was joking with Vic, I have the copyright here, but I was joking with Vic, I said, vic, your son is going to love it because it's a picture book and I'll leave picture but really you could take this book, Carrie, with your team, which is meant to be done and Work through each section. What kind of disciple are we making? How do we know if we get there? Are we being renewed? If not, how? And we have scorecards and checklists and sheets to grade yourself and your team to give you a score in order to determine where to go. So.
- [72:53]
A
Well, I'm excited for this. It's been a great conversation. Just want to thank you both very much. Vic, Robby, thank you for building into the wider church today. And I've learned a few things, so thank you.
- [73:07]
C
Thank you, Carrie. Thanks for today. Thanks for all that you do. And so we listen and follow for years. So it's great to join the conversation with you today.
- [73:16]
B
Amen.
- [73:17]
A
Man, that was really good. I enjoyed it, especially the ending there. It got kind of interesting. And I think they make some really good points about sustaining any revival that you have. And you know what, leadership is a place of perpetual renewal. So for those of you who are brand new in leadership, we have a ton of young leaders listening. I hope that was helpful. And for those of you who, like me, have been at this for a minute or two, we gotta keep renewing our hearts and we gotta position ourselves right. Don't lose that first love. If you want show notes including some of the framework and all the links to what we talked about, go to the Art of Leadership Academy. Sign up for a free account. Or you want all access, we can do that too. And we got 20,000 leaders in there, a lot of church leaders like you, great conversations, none of the nonsense that usually characterizes social media or the Internet. So I think you're really going to love it. Next episode, we're shifting gears. I love getting business leaders on this podcast because I think we learn best when we learn from different perspectives. The legendary Silicon Valley investor Bill Gurley. Honestly, the best career book that I have read in years. We're going to talk about how to get a career that you would dream about and a whole lot more. Chelsea Smith, Preston Sprinkle, Dave Ferguson, Dr. Nicole Martin, and a whole lot more coming up. If you hit follow or subscribe wherever you're watching or listening. And guess what? You're never going to miss an episode. And if this conversation was helpful, leave a review or comment where you're listening. Share it with a friend, maybe use it with your team as well. Thank you so much and I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing. Racing.