← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 803 | Mass-Marketed Sin, Political Warfare, and Why Your Best Staff Keep Leaving with Joel Muddamalle
01:45:09
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The Art of Leadership Network.
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The dark forces of this world are experts in mass marketing sin. The dark forces of this world are experts in mass marketing sin. We have to be really careful that we don't correlate the incommunicable attributes of God with these dark powers.
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Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. Hey, I've got Joel Muttamali. On the podcast we talk about what it takes to create an environment as a boss where you have eight players on your team. How do you keep a guy like a resident theologian who has bestselling books on your team? Keep them motivated. We're talking about the battle, the spiritual battle happening on your devices. Mass marketing sin and theocracy and the subversion of political power. Power and American nationalism, Christian nationalism. So all that with resident theologian Joel Mutamali today on the podcast. Hey, so glad you joined us. Want to welcome all of you. For those of you who are watching or listening for the first time, I'm really glad that you're here. Thanks so much for joining us. We got a temporary studio today. In fact, you might hear a little bit of texting back and forth. Very few people break through on my phone, but we got a family chat going on so there's a few louder things along the way. Well, it's just because we're doing this show no matter where we are. Joel Muttamali is the director of theology and research at Proverbs 31 Ministry with Lisa Terkerst and the theologian in residence for Haven Place Ministries. He also co hosts the popular podcast Therapy and Theology with Lisa and licensed counselor Jim Kress. He serves on the preaching team at Transformation Church with Pastor Derwin Gray and is the author of Hidden Peace and his latest book, the Unseen. So if you're watching for the first time, make sure you give us a follow or subscribe. If you're listening, do the same thing on whatever platform you're listening on. That way you'll never miss an episode. And now to my conversation with Joel Mutamale. Joel, I'm so glad to have you. Welcome.
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Thanks, Carrie. I'm so excited for this conversation.
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A
You're in a very unique position. We're going to talk a lot of theology, but we were chatting a little bit and I've met you before, we've done it in person with Lisa Turker. So you get to write books, you get to sort of chart your own course, but you also work for a very well known leader and I'm curious about what that dynamic looks like because we have a lot of bosses, a lot of team members listening, and sometimes that dynamic isn't great. And you guys have sort of a really cool relationship. I want to dig into a little bit. First of all, how do you become resident theologian for Lysa Terkerist? How does that happen?
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Yeah, well, I think this is such a fun story. You know, I think Lisa has many spiritual gifts. One of the significant ones is her. I believe her ability to discern really is the spiritual gift of discernment. And so we met Carrie 12 years ago. I was working for a Bible software company, Logos Bible Software.
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Yep.
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I was one of the presenter guys. I'd get on, you know, the infomercial.
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So you're doing like quote sales 100?
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Yeah, yeah, it was Bible software sales. That was kind of my job. And there was an event called Women of Faith and kind of these big arena events and, you know, kind of the who's who's of women's ministry leaders. And I would be there every weekend and I would do my presentation. And there's this gal named Lisa Turkers who I always thought of drew the short stick. Like it's the hardest thing to do the introduction for the, you know, the. The commercial sales pitch in, in between. And yet she would do it. And then what was wild, Carrie, is she would then come back down and sit in the front row and then she would take her pen and her journal out and take notes. And here's the secret, Carrie. I was doing the exact same thing every week. John, chapter four. Woman at the well, hover over the English word, you know, truth. Find out that the Greek word is alethea, which means hiding nothing. Here's a woman who has spent her entire life in hiding and God find, you know, And I remember one day Lisa came to me in the green room and this was probably months in, and she looked at me and she said, hey, Joel, when are you going to stop selling Bible software and start teaching the Bible? And I was kind of like blown away. And from a career standpoint, Carrie, I'm kind of at the top of my career. Like, I'm doing arena events. Like I'm doing really well. And yet there was a deep restlessness. And I know we're going to talk about this later, but I remember having these moments getting done and hearing. It's a wild feeling hearing 8 to 10,000 women laughing at your jokes. Like biting, you know, like eating out the Bible, like all this. Like they were just absolutely loving the presentation and the Minute I get done, everybody knows me. They see me and they say hi, and they love the pictures of my family. And then what was so fascinating is I would get off and I would be absolutely lonely. Like, I would feel a deep sense of loneliness as I would get off the stage. And I remember Lisa had this conversation with me and that began kind of a discussion, a dialogue, where over time I kind of realized, man, God really wired me to want to study the Bible and to research it. And the real passion I had wasn't necessarily from selling Bible software. It was from seeing people get excited about the biblical text and equipped to read the Bible on its own terms and by themselves, like for themselves. And so that then the long story is she goes, hey, I've got this kind of desire where we have more access to the Bible than ever before, and yet biblical literacy is really, really tanking. And we have this passion at Proverbs 31 ministries to eradicate biblical poverty. And I kind of had A Luke, Chapter 24 wrote to Emmaus moment where my heart starts to burn alive. And here's this woman who is articulating words, which is so Lisa, right? Like, articulating words that I've been feeling that I've never been able to communic. Then she goes, hey, would you ever consider coming and working for me at Proverbs? And I was like, hey, Lyse, this is great, but two problems. One, I'm a guy. This is like, this is a woman's ministry.
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Women's ministry, right?
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Like, how does that work? And then secondarily, when I was looking at what she was looking for, I had a seminary degree, but I didn't have a PhD. And I said, hey, you really need a guy that's got a PhD or a gal that's got a PhD. And here's some recommendations. And she was like, well, what if you got a PhD at this point? Carrie, I've got three little kids. My wife and I've been married for 10 years, or actually just six years, seven years. And like, there's no way that I, that I'd ever be able to accomplish a PhD program in this season of life. And she was like, well, what if we created the space for you to do it? And I was like, wait, what? You would hire me full time and create the space for me to do a PhD program? She was like, absolutely. And kind of the rest is history. And I had a conversation with my wife, actually realized through that conversation that what I thought was an incredibly solid marriage was on the verge of Fracture. I was traveling about 140,000 air miles a year.
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Mostly local.
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Yeah. Leaving my, my wife and my kids back. We all, we start to build two different lives, you know, where. And then when I come home, I'm actually messing up her life because she's got routines and, and systems and I've got opinions of how we should, you know. And she's like, you're not even here for 80%. You know. And in that conversation, Lisa's one thing was, hey, you have to relocate to Charlotte and. Cause you know, she does everything together, close knit team. And I was like, my wife will never go for this. And when we're on a walk, I won't forget the day we're walking in Chicago, Illinois, where we lived at the time. Britt said to me, you need to call Lisa back right now and accept the job. Like this is absolutely a non negotiable for us. We gotta do this. And that's what happened. And so I spent the first five and a half years at Proverbs working on all of Lisa's book projects, Bible studies, proverbs kind of resources. But really they created an immense amount of space for me to really tackle my PhD, my dissertation, and so finished that in about five and a half years, which is fast relatively for a PhD dissertation. And then Lisa was the one who was like, hey, I think you should start writing books. And I was like, I don't know Lisa. I've seen like, it's like watching Lisa write a book is like watching Michael Jordan shoot a fade away, kind of daunting. And she's like, no, Jo, we need your voice and we need your unique way. We don't need another Lisa Terker out there. We need a jolt, you know, and the theologically minded and all that. And so I would say, Lisa, a couple things, Carrie, about Lisa. Lisa's a better person off stage than she is on stage, which I've met many ministry leaders and sadly I can't say that about everybody. Right.
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The opposite's true. Often really nice on stage and a bear behind the scene.
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Oh my goodness. And devastating when you actually experience that, you know. And Lisa's the opposite. And the second thing is she has this thing in her where she is very intentional about the team that she puts around her. So it's not like the path into that position is very intentional. There's high bars, high responsibility. She's got this access, responsibility thing, which is really important. And also she gives you such freedom, there's trust. And so she has championed Me really along the way. And then a couple years ago there was a shift in our organization where, where Lisa moved into visionary president and then brought up Meredith Brock, who I think, you know, mere and mayor is like our CEO, you know, at Proverbs. And even that change is evidence of her intuitive nature to say, let's put the right people in the right places so the organization can flourish and the individual can flourish. And I remember one day I like read this article about, you know, the number two or the number, like numbers two, three, four at Facebook, Google, Microsoft, they're crushing it. They're doing really well for themselves. And yet we live in a culture where everybody wants to be number one. Like they desire the number one spot but not recognizing the pressure, the stress, the accountability, the responsibility that comes with that. And also like, are you wired to do that? Is God gifted? You graced you for that role and that responsibility. And I remember Lisa once said to me, Joel, I love that you get to be number one in your area, you know, of your passion, your expertise. And the great thing for me is I have no level of weight and stress for other areas that I just don't want to do or I'm not gifted at. I'm not called to those things. And so it's been a really incredible season working under the best boss I've ever had, you know, just hands down. And so, yeah, that's kind of my story of how I got here.
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A
I think there's so many lessons. I mean, we did a day together a couple days a few years ago when I was working on my previous book. Didn't see it coming. I went down and took one of Lisa's two day intensive, which basically means Lisa and her team and me and my team sitting around a table at her house together for a day. Highly, highly recommend. And that's where we first met and I was impressed by the quality of leaders. But then when we were chatting and you're like, yeah, I get to write my own books. Lisa gives me a lot of freedom. It's a very. One of the pieces of mail we get on the regular on my channels is from people who are like, I have very controlling boss. And this is often in a church context or my boss won't let me. And I think it's really interesting that you get to and are encouraged to write your own book, have your own voice. She gives you the freedom to go and get a doctorate and then write. So speak for a moment about to the bosses who are maybe insecure, there's A lot of bosses who would be too insecure to do that. Well, if Joel's book would ever outsell mine or if Joel gets well known in his own right, then he's going to leave. I think that's the internal dialogue of insecurity in a leader's mind and heart. Speak to that. Why is that like a very compelling environment for you?
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Yeah, I mean, one for me. And it's not that opportunities have been a come through, you know, but when I assess and evaluate it, I just think, why would I ever want to leave this situation? Like, I honestly, like, I get the opportunity, the flexibility now there's high level of responsibility that I have, there's trust that has to be maintained along the way, but there's an environment that is really cultivated for me to flourish in the areas that I'm kind of committed to, you know, and that Lisa has seen space. The other thing that I would highly just suggest for any leader is that little, like, line that is being fed to you.
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Right.
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Like that. It's that. That background music of what if they get better? What if they get more known? What if they become more successful? You know, and then I think that that's actually an invitation into honest dialogue with the condition of our hearts of saying, like, yeah, what if, like, let's play that out. Like, what if, like, what is, you know, like, what does. Because we assume that that means something less of me, you know, rather than looking at it and saying, man, that's actually an indication of an investment in discipleship that actually draws back more value to me. You know, it identifies like trust and cultivation and growth. And so this is something that Lisa's really, really modeled even in her compel training. I think it's kind of interesting, Carrie. Sometimes people come into those trainings and they're like blown away because there's nothing hidden. Like, you come in and you get Lisa's actual model. Like, I do an entire theological core. We've got an entire marketing kind of piece to it. And people are like, wait a minute. Like you're. This is actually how you do it.
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You give me the secret sauce.
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You give me the secret sauce. And so the thought could be like, well, what if other people get more successful? And it's like. And particularly for Christians, like, this is. Let's not think about the outside world. Just think about Christians. Praise God, because we're doing kingdom work.
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It's not like I have anything proprietary.
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Yeah. Which by the way, this is not new nor novel. I think about kind of Paul and Peter, I think about Apollos and it's like, and Paul at one point is like, yeah, who cares? Like, Apollos, Peter, whoever, all these people is the name of Jesus being proclaimed. And so I do think it's an invitation to humility. And I think that it would be disingenuous for me to say, well, don't worry about that. Like, they're not gonna get better than you. Like, they're not gonna be more successful. I actually think it might be an invitation for the opposite. Like, what if they do? And what if they do? So what if they are successful? And how amazing is it to almost pre decide that my heart is gonna celebrate their success? Like, my heart is going to honor what the Lord is doing in their life. And I think that if we can pre decide that, we can create environments for some of the most incredible people to flourish. And I think you find more often than not their thought process is like, why would I ever want to leave? Like, I kind of love it here.
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This episode is brought to you by Church Growth Engine. So why do churches with faithful members, solid preaching, and genuine love for God struggle to flourish in their communities? A lot of growth challenges are actually about removing predictable barriers that prevent churches from becoming everything God has called them to be. Church Growth Engine's guide, why do Good Churches get stuck? Identifies 10 fixable problems, including leadership exhaustion cycles, visitor retention gaps, and the we're full illusion. Each challenge includes both symptoms to recognize and practical steps that have helped thousands of churches move from survival mode to thriving ministry. You'll see realistic timelines because lasting change can take a little time. So, ready to help your church thrive? Download the free guide today@churchgroweengin.com Actionplan that's churchgrowthengine.com Actionplan this episode is brought to you by the Art of Preaching. Every preacher makes mistakes. And the toughest part, you always make them. On Sunday morning in front of hundreds or sometimes thousands of people, maybe I've done this. You lose your train of thought mid sermon. You fumble for your notes, like, what was I trying to say? Right? You search for the line and all you feel is every single eye staring back at you. Your gut drops, your palms get sweaty. No, I'm not going to start singing, okay? Or rapping. And you replay it all Sunday afternoon. And then when you're lying in bed that night, Listen, I get it. After 30 plus years of preaching, I've made every mistake you can make as a communicator more than once. And that's one of the Reasons I've I created the Art of Preaching. It's a step by step course that helps you break free from panic and preach with confidence. Instead of second guessing yourself and staying up all Saturday night. You're going to know your message is going to be clear, memorable and impactful long before you walk onto the stage or behind the pulpit. Most preaching resources give you inspiration, some give you a formula to follow. But the Art of Preaching gives you the insight, strategies and tools you need to transform your skill set and develop your gifting. You'll transform your skill set one step at a time. It's bite sized bits. The course is open for enrollment now, so you can check it out at theartofpreachingcourse.com or by clicking the link in the description of this episode. Again, just click the link in the description of this episode to get instant access to the Art of Preaching. That's the point, right? And I'm so glad we're having this conversation because it's very counterintuitive. Leaders can become very proprietary. So just for the leader who's like, huh, I've always wondered why I either don't have a players or I can't hang on to a players. I can't hang on to rock stars. They always leave just bullet point a few things that make it. And I'm not saying, you know, you're going to be there forever and ever, but you have no intention of going. It's a, it's a mutually supportive ecosystem. So for leaders who want to make the turn and say, okay, I gotta stop controlling, you know, Andy Stanley always has said, people say, aren't you afraid of losing your people? He's like, I don't have any people. These are not my people. They're not my people. They're God's people. And I think that's a very mature attitude to it. So what are the conditions that make it easy for you as an a player in your own right to stand?
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I think one is trust. There's a level of trust. I'm not micromanaged. I've been in micromanaging scenarios. Not here in Proverbs, but in other situations. And I remember how defeating that was to me, you know, both emotionally psychological.
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Explain why that's, explain why that's defeating. I mean, I totally get it, but why is that defeating bosses?
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You're always worried you're gonna make a mistake. You're always worried that there's something, there's overlooking. It's critiquing every little thing that you do. And then if you're like, I'm a creative, I'm an idea person, I like to explore ideas. And you feel stifled in the very area that God has wired you to kind of flourish and to grow in, you know, so if you have a micromanaging kind of supervisor, what you're going to notice is instead of taking risks that can actually be incredibly beautiful and provide growth and scale, some of them will flop for sure. What you'll find is people are just like, it's, you know, it's the peril of the talent of the guy who just digs the, digs the money in and doesn't do anything with it because you're just terrified. You're terrified that you're going to make a mistake. And so I think that is a significant barrier for particularly a level leaders that want to flourish and want to grow in their own rights, but they always feel like they've got the weight of the backseat quarterback, you know, Monday morning quarterbacking on it, which is just devastating, I would say. The other one is, this is something Lisa does often, is she asks me about my life. Like people kind of joke, like when they come to theology study with us, they kind of people might be like, are you guys even like, effective? Like, are you even being efficient? Because the first hour and a half of our study days are like literally friends catching up what's going on in your life. And what I've actually found is Lisa's intuitive nature in those conversations is to actually identify potential roadblocks in my own life that I won't even see coming. You know, and so creating space, asking questions, posing things to me on health, family, balance, you know, travel, these kinds of things. What ends up actually happening in those moments is I'm getting mentored. So I had a couple projects that I got offered over the last couple of years that a couple years ago, Carrie, I would have been like, absolutely. Like, this is so amazing. And in the season that I'm in right now, it's really hard. My heart and my, you know, I'm like a performer. I'm an enneagram3, whatever people think about enneagram. But I'm kind of like the performer and I, and I hate to displease people. I hate to let people down. And I remember just really devastated because I knew in my heart, like, I, I can't do this, but I'm trying to figure out how to make it happen. And Lisa and I were having one of those catch up conversations. Me, Lisa, Meredith, Leah, and in that she was able to mentor me on decision making and how at different phases of your career, you have to look at opportunities with an opportunity cost analysis. And you have to be honest about the season that you're in, because it's better to let somebody down on the front end than to commit to something and then let them down consistently throughout the entire process, you know, in the back end. So I would just say like discipleship, like honest conversation where. Where like, she often gives years and years of expertise to me in a setting that is there. And then the third thing is open communication. It kind of feeds into number two. But we're in dialogue, not monologue, where. And this is hard for me. I've had to learn that if there are issues, she's a safe person for me to bring the issues. Up to now, there's no guarantee that it's going to be resolved the way I want it to be resolved. But I know that I'm going to be heard and I know that there's a conversation that's going to happen in light of that. And I think sometimes what happens is we feel like, oh, man, we can't talk to the lead person because we're wasting their time or they're going to get frustrated or they're going to get annoyed or, you know. So I would say if you're a senior leader and your a people, your closest people come to you and your response is, I'm annoyed. I don't have time for this. This is a waste of my time. You should have figured this out on your own. These are all responses that are actually training your people not to come to you.
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Right?
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These are all responses that are saying, this is not a safe environment. And by the way, those are the types of things that make the grass look so much greener on the other side, you know, and so for me, it's like, no. And this has been hard. I still struggle with this because I don't want to let people down. I don't want to stress out. I know she's busy, but consistently, every time she's like, why don't you come to me sooner? Like, we could have dealt with this, like, so much, so much earlier, you know, whatever those situations are. And then just constantly, like, where do you want to go? What does the future look like? You know, do you see yourself here forever? Are there creative ways that we can create space for you to flourish? What if you want to do something that's not connected at all to Proverbs or to me? How can we Support you in that. Which I'm kind of like, wait a minute, why would you even offer that? Because it feels like you're pushing me out the door trying out new things. But I've actually learned the opposite, that the more connected she's actually creating bridges to the things that I'm passionate about and she's staying closer to me in that. Proverbs is staying closer to me in that. And so I think those are all things right off the top of my head that I would say have kept me really in, in this place.
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Well, we're going to get into theology, but that was a 20 minute masterclass on how to create and keep a team of a players. And I mean having experienced that myself in spending some time with Lisa and the team, I can see it. But it's really good to go under the hood. So thank you for that. So we're in talk theology. You're an in house theologian. Not a whole lot of jobs like that out there. And you know the thing that really I think gets in the head of a lot of leaders who listen to this podcast is suddenly with the Internet over the last 20 years, everyone's an amateur theologian. Everybody's got opinions on every message on everything you do. You must see that on your own YouTube channel or your social. You just get people who perhaps don't have a PhD in theology arguing with that. You know, when you think about the good news is knowledge is democratized. The bad news is people get whatever hobby horse they're riding and they ride it.
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Yeah.
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What are you like would you say the state of theology is today and how does that compare to perhaps 20 years ago, if you can go back that far?
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That's such a good question. This is something I'm consistently thinking about. These are some of the reasons that you just identified, Carrie, that I often think at least once a day, I think I'm done with Instagram TikTok shorts. Like honestly, like I. And I've actually made an intentional decision to spend more time on substack for long term content.
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A
Okay.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and so, you know, I think that where the state of where we are is just because we have more access to theological information does not mean that we're becoming more knowledgeable or responsible with the information that is present to us. So for instance, I think that at times people, because they can now get a 60 second reel on Paul and you know, the new perspective on Paul through N.T. wright's perspective in his book, like, they're like, oh, I now Understand what NT Wright is talking about when it comes to Paul new perspective, right?
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Lo and behold, I don't understand anything NT Wright is talking about.
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Seriously. And lo and behold, like there are right behind me in my bookshelf, you can see on the video there's. He wrote a series of books that are like this thick, like all combined. And so what ends up happening is we're getting short form information that is conning us into believing that the short form information is substantive and equates to actual study and research and processing. And it also is inviting us into echo chambers of knowledge and information. And so. And the algorithm works that way, right?
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A
It is, this is, this is like, this is good for business. If you're meta or if you're YouTube or Google or you know, whoever you're with. This is good for business. Just get people arguing with you.
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You nailed it. I actually know typically when a reel that I do or a post that I that I've posted is about to do well, when I start to see all the haters come through, you know, because what the algorithm has identified is, oh, we need to start feeding this content to other people that disagree with it. But notice what ends up happening. This is the nature of the algorithm. The nature of the algorithm is to create competition, not genuine communication. Like, that's exactly what's happening. The nature of the algorithm is like, let me compete against you, speak against you, take my points, fight against you with your points. And there's not space of understanding. Well, what do you mean by that when you say that there are other gods of the nation? So I wrote a book called the Unseen Battle. And I make this argument like, hey, that in the ancient world, the ancient peoples understood there to be the gods of the nations were legitimate spiritual beings. And then the person comes back, well, you're a heretic because that's not monotheism and we're monotheists. Are you saying that there are other gods than the one true God of heaven and earth? I'm like, no, actually I'm just saying that in your Bibles that you read, you read them in English if you're in the west, right? And every English translation by nature is an interpretation. The Hebrew Bible is written in Hebrew. The New Testament is written in Greek. Some of Daniel is written in Aramaic. And so the Hebrew term Elohim is translated as God. And context determines how that is being used. Elohim is a categorical term for a disembodied spiritual being. And so it can be used of yahweh the one true God, the uncreated creator. And it can also be used of other spiritual beings. And we see that in the actual biblical text. But notice how this requires communication. This requires us to be able to move beyond our presupposition of what another person is saying and fight against it and saying. Let me pause and ask for some clarification on what you mean by the term God. And so, yeah, I think that we're living in an age of insane access to information. Insane access. And yet we have no ability to filter it and discern how to rightly understand that information.
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A
Okay, so I'm going to take you into my head a little bit. Like, we. We just had a guest on the podcast. I won't say who. And, you know, it was someone who had a moral failure, and it went up. And of course it blows up. And you're right, there's a moment at which the algorithm kicks in, and it's the comments before the algorithm kicks in who tend to be your followers. Right? These are the people who are regularly there. And it's a nuanced conversation. Some people are like, you should never have had this guy on. I'm not sure why you did it. And some people are like, oh, man, this was really helpful. And then you get the people who haven't seen the interview, haven't sat through the two hours, who have all kinds of opinions, and these are the people the algorithm brings in, and they're often the savage ones. And it's really challenging. Like, I try to take DMs seriously. I got one from somebody who just said, I don't know why you're having this person on. Don't you understand? I really gave some thoughtful time to a response. I'm going to answer this one. Ghosted me after that. Okay, all right. Why did I bother? And I'm just wondering how you engage that. We Talked to Sharon McMahon about this on this podcast. We talked to other guests. But I'm wondering, because there's part of you that must be saying, look, I have a PhD in theology. You've been discipled by YouTube. What do you know? But this is happening in the health sphere, this is happening in the theology sphere. This is happening in all of the spheres. So I guess my question is, like, how do you respond to that?
- [31:07]
B
So one of the. One of the things I think social media has done to people like you and I, and even the individual that you're talking about, is we're no longer people, we're products that are behind the screen. And it's almost like just like Amazon, like, I can go onto an Amazon product and rate their product at Star three, Star two, Star. That's basically what we're doing with people and we're proving it through our comments. And then again, it's almost like there's these. The audiences that we build. The algorithm wants the audiences to fight against each other in defending the case of the individual. And so I was always struck. Carrie by C.S. lewis. Lewis was known for responding to many, many letters that were written to him. And so handwritten would take time in his week to respond to handwritten letters to him with his own handwritten letters. And people still have evidence of that and have grandparents or whatever that held onto a response from Clive or whatever. And that kind of impacted me. So I thought, you know what? I'm going to respond as best I can to comments in there. And the goal of that was, hey, by the way, I'm a person, I'm a human. You know, I don't want you to get the auto, you know, many chat Reply or the LinkedIn, whatever, the automated. You know what I'm saying? Like, no, no, this is me. Like, I'm sitting here and I'm responding to you. And I quickly found out that at times it was beautiful. Like, as soon as you reply with a sense of humility and understanding, but also conviction, like, I'm convicted in what I believe. Here's a little bit more of what I'm thinking about. The response back to it often is one of two things. One, tripling down, vindictive, angry, like, you know, aggressive, or number two, it's like, huh, that's really interesting. I was confused by this. And then we get into meaningful conversation there. And at the very end of it, you know, there's a brilliant scholar, Tom Shriner. Tom wrote a book on, like, different views of women back. Back in the day with other scholars. And in the very beginning of the introduction, Tom says, I'm a better scholar, a better, you know, follower of Jesus, basically because of the writing and the scholarship of these other individuals, though they disagree, though, like, they have opposite views of me. And at the very end of it, he goes, I'm a better, you know, scholar because of that. And I'm unconvinced. And I love that. I love that, like, you know, and what would happen in social media. And so my personal approach now has been I won't engage with the comments that are so overtly aggressive, dehumanizing. Like, you know, I just, I don't want to feed fuel into it. And. And I pray. Like, this sounds odd, but, like, I'll pray. Like, Lord, are you releasing me to respond to this comment? I want to. Then I gotta do a little bit of introspection. What is my goal? Is my goal to be like, by the way, let me go ahead and parse the Hebrew for you. So. Which I know you don't even know Hebrew, but you know this is gonna fly over your head, right? And then I go, oh, that's super prideful. Like, I'm not trying to have a conversation. I'm just trying to point out that you suck. Like, you're an idiot. Like, you know, I'm like, oh, that's. That's actually a condition of my heart that the Lord actually has to sanctify, you know, And I'm. This is an imperfect Joel that's talking where I'm in progress and process right now. I just did a thing on, like, the war that we're in, and there's a lot of stuff on End Times. This is the fulfillment of it. And, you know, we're recording this while.
- [34:29]
A
While the Iran Middle east conflict is exactly full bloom.
- [34:33]
B
Yeah. And I. I did a post where I did not take a position, but, like, I want to. I'm gonna give you. I'm not gonna tell you what to think, but I'm gonna give you a lot to think about on different views theologically of Jeremiah 49 and how that's been interpreted and all these other things. Man. I got an email from a person, and that email was basically like, the accusations, the conspiracy theorists. Like, I'm getting paid off by the, you know, by the government, all this other stuff. And I was just like, it was wild, actually. It was actually kind of wild. And I was like, am I really. I was like, no, there's something else that's going on in this person's heart. I gotta let it go, you know, And. And. But it would hurt because I felt like I have been deeply misunderstood and now misrepresented. And yet my goal is not to, like, vindicate myself. Like, I have to always go back to, like, what I deeply desire is for people to be able to rightly understand the word of God on the scripture's own terms. Not my. Not their terms, not a 21st century understanding of it on the Bible's terms themselves. And so if I become a resistance or a hindrance to that man, I'm Remove myself from that.
- [35:40]
A
This episode is brought to you by Belay. Church leaders are called to lead with empathy with wisdom and with presence. But that's really hard to do when you're stretched too thin. And while artificial intelligence tools can help, they still need oversight, right? Mistakes happen, details get missed, and suddenly you're pulled away from the mission altogether. But what if you could already have the clarity and the margin to fully focus on your calling without letting all the important details that keep your church running slip through the cracks? Well, with Belay, you can Belay hand matches pastors and church leaders with highly vetted US based assistance and financial experts who can take the operational work off your plate without sacrificing the human touch that your church and community deserve. So you can stay present, you can lead well, and focus on what matters most. So to learn more about why that human touch still matters and how to balance it all with AI efficiently download Belay's resource 5 traits AI can't replace. Just text my name the word Carrie to 55123 to claim your free download. That's carry C A r e y to 55123. Have you ever had a situation? And I'm sure you have, but I'm just wondering what the criteria are. Because everybody's mailbag to speak, you know, their emails, their DMs, the comments on social. So even your social media team or AI posts your sermon series on Sunday. And again, if it picks up right, that clip, that reel goes viral, even in a small way, you've got lots of people jumping in. Have you ever had examples of rewarding conversations where you're like, oh, that was worth it and we had a meaningful exchange and if so, what are the conditions or what are the, the identifying characteristics? I guess you would say that would make you think. I think this is a shot at an honest dialogue. And I'm just telling you I will often try to jump in. And right now it's a couple times a year. I'm like, I'm gonna wade into the comments and I'm gonna try to make this right. And almost always I'm like, what was I even thinking? Why did, why did I think this is a good idea? Why did I think this person was open and for a meaningful conversation? Because nine now if it's a friend, if you text me and like, hey, Carrie, I've got real issues with, you know, this interview you did or this really posted. I'm like, joel, let's talk. Like, let's go. So I'm not talking about people I actually know. I'm talking about people I don't know on the Internet.
- [38:10]
B
Yeah, let me just comment on that one first, though. If you do know me and you have my phone number, just text me. Like, don't throw the comment in the, you know, like, you have act like we can just do that. So that's. Yeah, so that's just.
- [38:22]
A
I see. That's a really good point. And you, you'd probably, you know, for pastors, they'd want to tell their church, hey, if you've got my email, like, don't. Don't start arguing on, on YouTube. Like, just send me a note, man. Yeah, call me, text me.
- [38:36]
B
Yeah, especially if you have that relationship. Because again, what I think happens is we. We now begin to think that the comments is a free for all. Like, and we almost, in our brain, we disconnect. Like, no, this is a person I hang out with. This is a person that when I'm traveling, I'll text and say, hey, are you free? Let's grab dinner. You know, like, I know the kids, I know your families. Like, when I come in, it brings me joy to see how they've grown from time I've seen them. And so, yeah, like, just encourage human to human relationship, you know, when. When it's there. Okay, so what are the criteria? I do have an example. I did a series of posts about the. And this actually is connected to the book. So I did a series of posts of Genesis 1 through 11 where I made the argument that Genesis 1 through 11 is not primarily about science. So often when we read Genesis 1 through 11, we're trying to get scientific information out of it, particularly the creation account of Genesis 1 and 2 and the story of the fall in Genesis chapter 3. And kind of my argument, looking at the Hebrew Bible and particularly those chapters and the way that Moses is articulated and communicating the story is that the goal is not to give us a science lesson, but in fact, what's happening is that there is a polemic, there's an argument that is taking place against competing creation stories. In the ancient Near Eastern time period, particularly a creation story by the name of the Enuma Elish, which has this whole thing about Tiamat, you know, slain. That's where the creation story kind of happens, where the borders of humanity come in. There's another deity, Kingu, who has another battle with another deity out of the blood of this fallen deity, is where humanity comes up. Interestingly, humanity's role is to serve as slaves to the gods, you know, and then they're kind of viewed in this subhuman, almost just meaningless, worthless identity. Interesting. In Genesis 1, 2, and 3. If you just look at the way that humanity's origin is, it's all shots at the creation, the creation myth of the new Malish. God creates Adam and Eve from the dust of the ground, not out of blood. And then he lifts them and raises them them into his royal garden in Eden. And the thing that brings them to life is his very breath that brings them to life. And then he gives them a royal vocation and command. And not only that, he gives them something so unique that nothing else in creation has. They're made in the likeness and in the image of God himself. The Hebrew words there are daimut and Shalem. And in the ancient Near Eastern world and in the Hebrew language, these words were used exclusively of children of royalty. So when you heard those phrases, you're instantly thinking, wait a minute, this origin story for humanity is wildly different than the story of the Enuma Elish. And so now we're left wondering, what is the purpose and identity of humanity? Is it to be slaves of the gods, to be mistreated and to be really subjugated? Or is it that, no, you're actually children of the one true God of heaven and Earth, the uncharted Creator. And as children you have a holy royal vocation. So I was kind of giving all of this out and there was a guy that was a PhD Hebrew Bible, PhD and brilliant, you know, and had a different take on the seven day deal and what's happening in Eden. And when the individual commented on this post, I read it and there was aggression, a little bit of aggression in the comment. But as I was trying to assess it, I'm like, oh, I think this aggression comes from frustration and less, it's less combative. And it was. There was substantive, like, feedback in it where he's actually going, have you thought about this? And have you thought about this? And then I was like, great points, really great points. So I responded to that and said, hey, thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. I am aware of those things. Here are the reasons why I don't. Those things are unconvincing to me. And I give kind of my. And we kind of go back and forth on the main public. It was wild. Somebody else commented on that thread and goes, this is like, this is how scholarship should be done. Like, what if we all. Like, what if we all interacted with each other the way that Joel and this other person are? It was just really interesting to see. Lo and behold, we end up talking to each other on dm. We have a really Honest conversation. I think this individual would be considered more of a modern kind of liberal scholar in a lot of ways. So we see things totally differently, honestly, theologically. And yet, Carrie, man, like, the next time I'm in his area, we're going to go out and hang out and grab some food. And it's been a meeting. He reaches out to me when he's got questions and concerns, I reach out to him and I actually asked him stuff like, hey, here, I'm getting ready to post this. What are your critiques on this? I want to kind of, you know, and so those are kind of just examples of, of, yes, there might be some aggression, but there might be some misunderstanding and frustration that needs to be dialogued with in charity and then assess the responses along the way. And then I think a relationship can. And by the way, we still disagree on that point.
- [43:57]
A
Sure. But that's like one academic paper written to argue with another academic paper, and it's done respectfully and thoughtfully. And yeah, we don't agree. So two scenarios I think, that come up. You know, there are people who don't have doctorates and I don't have a doctorate. I don't. But we all have opinions, right? Strongly held, weakly formed opinions, I think is the era of our age. And so somebody starts commenting on something that you've said publicly. Two scenarios. One is they've been down some rabbit hole on the Internet because the algorithm does serve up more and more extreme content all the time. So they're convinced the Earth is flat, or they're convinced that, that something that probably just isn't true theologically and you don't know them, how do you respond? And then if you do know them, how do you respond? Because I think a lot of leaders are in both scenarios where it's like, yeah, I got some people I don't know, I may never meet them. I don't know if they go to our church or not. They're arguing with me. But then I've got some guy who comes on the regular, brings his kids, donates, but he's in some weirdo rabbit hole on the Internet right now and is convince, convince that you know this about the Book of Daniel or the Second Coming. I always pick on apocalyptic stuff. Yeah, of course it tends to manifest. Right. But they're in some rabbit hole where they're completely convinced or they're, they've, they've, they've majored in Genesis 1 through 3, but they completely disagree with your thesis that it was there to refute the ancient I guess. Was it a Babylonian myth or something like that? The Enuma Elish?
- [45:40]
B
Yeah.
- [45:41]
A
So. So they just completely disagree with you. You. So what do you do when that's someone you don't know? And what do you do when it's someone you do know? Because the reality is, for a lot of the people listening there, it's both. They're people they don't know. People they do.
- [45:56]
B
Yeah. So for the people that I don't know, this is going to seem very simple, but I actually take a look real quick. If I. If I feel a need to respond, I take a look at their profile. Like, I did the same thing today.
- [46:09]
A
Same thing, man.
- [46:10]
B
Is there actually a profile? Is this person actually have followers like, you know, or is it one of those bots? Is it a bot?
- [46:15]
A
It's a bot.
- [46:16]
B
Exactly. Exactly. And I'm like, I'm not messing with no profile picture. No. Like, it's honestly just a waste of my time. It's just not gonna be helpful. Now I see a profile picture and it might be whatever, and. But there's followers. There's some engagement in there. And then I assess kind of what I said before. Is there a genuine curiosity? Is there a little bit of aggression? But it seems like there might be a place of misunderstanding. I might respond then to that with, hey, that's a really interesting ide. Or thanks for your thoughtful response. I like to pre. I almost want to. Even if it. I don't think it was a thoughtful response, Carrie. I almost want to put it in there so that the next response is thoughtful. Like, I almost want to see their thinking of saying, this is what I value. Like, I want this to be a thoughtful, honoring, engaging conversation. So I almost want to, like, seed it in there. Like, thanks for your thoughtful response, your consideration. And then I'll go into the next thing. If the next.
- [47:10]
A
You're almost recalibrating the tone 100%.
- [47:13]
B
100%. I want to re. Establish the boundaries of the conversation. You know, just because it starts an aggression doesn't mean I have to pick up the aggression and respond in aggression. In fact, it starts in aggression. I want to respond with that aggression in humility and also charity. Now, I know it's a buzzword that people hate today at times, but, like, it's empathy, it's compassion. It's. It's a desire to not allow another person's, like, vitriol to then become mine that I, That. That I take on. So I'm trying to step in and think whatever is going on in their life, maybe, you know, they slipped and hurt their ankle. I played basketball yesterday, my back hurts today. You know, like you just woke up and you're, you're upset and like, okay, now with that in my mind thinking about that, I'm gonna respond in a kind and compassionate way and then see what the response is. So that would be that with the person that, you know, I would respond,
- [48:08]
A
okay, so it's, it's a little bit different because, I mean, but you have a network of relationships as well as I do. But you know, for the average pastor, it's their church and they got some guy who's in a wormhole and just has all these opinions on the apocalypse, the end of the world, the creation story, whatever it happens to be, and is convinced that they're right, but they have a relationship. So the equivalent for you or I, because our audience tends to self select your audience, you know, I'm gonna buy Joel's book or I'm not gonna buy Joel's book, I'm gonna listen to his podcast, I'm not gonna listen, I'm gonna subscribe, I'm gonna unsubscribe. Our audience self selects. Churches kind of work that way. But you're also, let's be honest, kind of stuck sometimes with the people that you've got, right? And they're gonna be there Sunday after Sunday and they're like, here's another article you need to read, here's another link you need to look at, etc, and that could be a college buddy for you that you kind of have a relationship with, but from 20 years ago or 10 years ago. But like it's like, oh dude, get out of that wormhole. Like what do you do with someone like that? Or it's a brother in law, you know, or whatever.
- [49:16]
B
It's a family member.
- [49:17]
A
Family. Your uncle. Your uncle.
- [49:19]
B
Yeah, there's a couple responses. There's this amazing thing called boundaries that we can establish. Right, I'll get into to that. So there's a little quick story about this. So my doctoral adviser is a guy named Dr. Michael Heiser. And Mike was probably like the leading scholar, Hebrew Bible, Semitic scholar on spiritual warfare, angels, demons, Old Testament, New Testament. And so I wrote my dissertation underneath him. He was my second reader. I did not come to the text with the, with the understanding that I have today, 15 years ago. And so Mike and I both worked at Logos Bible Software. In fact, Mike was the scholar in residence and I was helping launch the Faith Life Study Bible, which he contributed kind of massively to. And I came across his article on Psalm 82. And when I read it, I thought, this is heresy. This is heresy.
- [50:09]
A
You mean Psalm 82 is heresy?
- [50:11]
B
No, no. His article comment, I'm like, what he wrote about Psalm 82. It's like, you know, God sits in the assembly and he casts judgment upon the gods, you know, and his was that the gods of the assembly were in fact, divine spiritual beings that were the gods of the nations that were fallen. And I read that, and I was always taught coming up and even in seminary, these are human rulers. Like the Genesis 6 are human rulers. It's the Setite view, Psalm 82, human rulers. And I remember walking into Mike's office in Bellingham. And when I walked in, by the way, when you walk into Mike's office and Mike actually passed. He was diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer as I was submitting my third chapter of my dissertation. And so I was able to finish my dissertation with him. And he, like. He even said he was like, don't even think about getting another advisor. Like, I'm going to see you through the finish line. And he did, and yet sadly passed a couple years after that. And so this was years ago. And I walk into his office, and behind him is a sign that says, reserved parking for Hebrew scholars only. Right? So just think about that for a second. And I'm a punk seminary kid, newly minted, you know, took a couple years of Hebrew, think I know the world. So I walk in and I'm just like. I think aggressive. I'm like, I can't believe we can't publish this. We can't. This is heresy, Mike. Like, you know, like, Psalm 82 is clearly talking about human rulers. And Mike responded to me, Carrie. And he goes, huh? Well, I haven't seen seat. Why do you think that they're human rulers and not angelic beings? What is your argumentation? And it started a conversation. And so I had. So I give this story as an example, because Mike could have easily been like, by the way, do you see the sign that says, I'm a Hebrew Semitics PhD scholar? Like, I dream in ugaritic. You know, like, this is different level guy. And he didn't. He posed a question because he cared about the way that I was thinking about it. And that made me face what I thought I knew. And what I realized was I was told a lot of things about Psalm 82. I did not read and study Psalm 82 on its own terms. And so I had to go back to the drawing TABLE and so I think that for the pastors that have these people that have gone through the conspiracy thing or the TikTok or whatever else, this is tough for pastors. You're shepherding and you're discipling, and this is something I don't have to do on a daily basis. And I understand that. And it might be really helpful to get a clear gauge of what exactly they're consuming. Like, where did they get these ideas? How are they being informed? You know, and then once you get down that road of understanding where they're being informed, it's kind of like you want to do a little bit of discernment check with that of saying, what are their qualifications to be able to make these kind of claims and assertions. Where do we find evidence of this in the Bible itself? Where do we find evidence of this in church history? Is there reception history that affirms these kinds of views? Or are these fringe ideas, you know, that are actually distracting us from the call of the gospel in our lives? And so I think that there is a conversation. If they're receptive to that conversation, you can move them through. But I found, Carrie, sometimes people that are deep down this hole, they don't want to hear it. They just don't want to hear it. Right.
- [53:34]
A
You don't understand. You don't understand, Joel. You don't understand.
- [53:37]
B
You don't understand. Yeah, you're like, yeah, yeah, you don't get it, man. Exactly. Like you're not enlightened or whatever else. And to which I would say, okay, then you have to establish boundaries. You really do. And so it's like, if they're creating chaos and disruption in the church, it's like, hey, you know, and point out the scriptures, like, we care about an orderly service and there's a place for you to have a conversation. If we come to a place where we fundamentally disagree upon this, I will not engage further in conversation because it's not healthy for us to continue going along this way. And so you want to establish boundaries in order to create a space of peace for yourself, for your congregation, but also to let the other person know that this kind of conversation and obsession, you're free to do that on your own terms, and yet it's unwelcome.
- [54:24]
A
And you're not going to be teaching this in small group group. At least not at our church.
- [54:28]
B
At least not at our church. Yeah, yeah.
- [54:30]
A
No, but I like. I like your idea of what Mike did with you in. In that he asked you a question and somebody Told me this years ago, but I really, I really believe it's true. Most people are three questions away from their worldview collapsing. So if you're like, you know, the young Hebrew PhD student upstart, right? You come in and all right, Mike, this is heresy. And he's like, well, tell me, why do you think that? And you're like, well, you know, da,
- [54:55]
B
da, da, da, da, da.
- [54:56]
A
And then, okay, well, why do you think, like, what? Da, da, da, da. And then why do you think that? I don't know. Right. Like very quickly. Yeah, most people are reduced to, well, I read it on the Internet or I don't know, or I can't answer that question. And I think that's a really good. Because you don't have to come out swinging. You don't have to pull the credentials. Well, I have a doctorate and I dream in whatever you just said, language, right? Like, you don't have to pull those cards and you can just ask questions. And then often if you're, particularly if you're face to face or voice to voice. Voice, people will kind of realize, oh, I think I know less than I think. But, you know, there was this book, I forget who wrote it. It's called the Death of Expertise. And we do live in that age where everybody's smarter than their doctor, where traditional medicine doesn't know anything, where the preachers. I know more than my preacher on whatever particular subject I'm passionate about. So I think those are good. Is there anything else on just dealing with. With the public vitriol that often comes at well thought out, well prayed through statements, sermons, theology articles. Because I do think that is the world that a lot of our listeners to this podcast live in. And they're. This is what kills them, right? This is why they can't focus at dinner. This is why they're distracted. This is why 24% of pastors are still thinking. Thinking of quitting. Not the only reason, but one of the reasons. Any other tips or advice on that? Because I think it's a crisis level problem that we're all facing.
- [56:30]
B
Yeah, no, I agree. I think the only other thing I can think of is at some point you've got to protect your own mental health and your own sanity.
- [56:36]
A
I generally don't read the comments. Like on this big piece that we released yesterday when we're recording. I did wade into the comments and I saw a lot of friends in there. They were like 10 out of 10. This was amazing. And I got a lot of DMS and texts from People who actually know me, actually, none of that. Thought it was a mistake, which is interesting. I mean, I'm sure some people thought it was a mistake. They just didn't let me know. But, like, it was really reaffirming. And then I went in there and, you know, did click a few profiles and I thought, ah, this isn't worth it. Right. Yeah, yeah. And I listen to my team too. You know, they pay attention to the. Yeah, the public channels. So the way I protect my mental health and I continue to do interviews like this one is that generally I'm not listening. Listening to the people I don't know well. But if it's a thoughtful comment, I will try to engage.
- [57:23]
B
Sometimes I think the other thing too is like, hey, at some level we have to cut off the oxygen to the vitriol, you know?
- [57:29]
A
Right. Because then you just start a whole other thread again that the algorithm realizes and so on.
- [57:37]
B
Exactly. Right.
- [57:38]
A
You know, be our advisor now. Be our mentor. We've been talking a lot this year about discipleship by algorithm. That basically the business model is to pull people into more and more extreme views on whatever subject they're interested. Interested in whether that's fitness. And you only eat this many exact grams of protein a day and everything has to be. And I can't believe you actually had that piece of bread. I don't know why you would do that, Joel. Like, you get into these extreme positions now and it could be on anything from peptides to fitness to theology. The algorithms model, it rewards extreme consolidation assumption. So everybody now has extreme views on something, and this is who we're pastoring. So establish some boundaries. Have conversations with people you know, maybe ignore the people you don't know. Any other guidance for leaders trying to navigate this. This mess, I would call it, that we're in.
- [58:34]
B
I would just say do not discount the level of spiritual warfare that is at play on our devices.
- [58:41]
A
Like, please don't go, because that's your book, right? The unseen battle.
- [58:45]
B
100%. Yeah.
- [58:46]
A
You just have an easy topic, so.
- [58:48]
B
Yeah.
- [58:49]
A
And so say more about that. What do you mean the. The spiritual battle that's happening on our devices?
- [58:54]
B
So what's so fascinating is that in Genesis 3, in Gen, like in these three rebellions, I kind of frame the unseen battle as three rebellions. And you've got the rebellion of Genesis 3, Genesis 6, and Genesis 11. And in each of these rebellions, you find a correlation and a pattern. And the pattern is, see desire and take. So Eve sees the. The. The fruit is good, right? It's pleasant, which is true. It looked good and it was pleasant. She desires it, which is like a normal human response to seeing something like, of course you can desire it. The question, and this is where spiritual warfare comes in, the question is the space in between the, the desire and the response. So, so when you have that desire, what do you do with that desire? The serpent says, the nakash says, take it, you deserve it. Like God's actually holding something back when. From you, you know, which actually I think is one of the most insane propositions because one of the other details that we find in Genesis chapter three is that it was routine for Yahweh to walk and talk with Adam and Eve every day in the cool of the evening breeze. The Hebrew word for walk has no destination in mind. This was a leisurely walk. Stroll, A stroll. And the cool, the evening breeze would identify that. This is at the end of the day. Day. Well, why is this important? Because it reminds us that Adam and Eve had vocation. They, they were not like sitting around lounging in the garden doing nothing. They were to name the animals, they were to cultivate, to guard. They had this, the holy royal task and vocation. So what is God doing with Adam and Eve in the evening? Well, what do I do with my wife in the evening as I'm going on a walk? We process life. We talk, we're navigating things with our kids, right? And I always wonder, like, it's kind of like a funny joke I'll think about sometimes with Adam and Eve, maybe they get into a debate on naming one of the animals you. And there's like these two animals, both four legged, long tails, massive teeth, and one has a big old mane, and the other one, no mane, but stripes. And so Adam's like, the one with the mane is a lion. Absolutely. The one with the stripes, maybe we call that elephant. And Eve's like the one with common sense, like, no, absolutely not. Like, elephant is not the right name for that. And then they goes like, oh, do you feel that? It's the cool of the evening breeze. Yahweh's on his way, and they go on a walk. And then Adam's like, hey, Eve and I having this debate. And it's like, you know, here's the situation. And we're thinking this one with the stripes we should call, call a elephant. And Yahweh goes, have you ever thought about that big old animal in the corner of Eden that has the big tusks and the massive trunk? And they go, oh, that. That's elephant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll call the one with the stripes tiger. Right. So all. All of this. I'm drawing it out. That's a funny story. Obviously, it's not in the biblical text. It, you know, if I do a children's book, one day that'll be part of the children's book. But, you know, but the point is, is what do Adam and Eve do with Yahweh? They're actually growing in knowledge and wisdom. The issue for them is not if they're going to grow in knowledge and wisdom. The issue is how they're going to grow in knowledge and wisdom. The serpent suggests that you can grow knowledge and wisdom separate and distanced from God. And you can. And the problem with them is they get all this knowledge and they have no discernment along the way. They have no way to process. They're buried in the. In the weight of it that actually destroys. And so it's this sea, it's this desire, and then Eve takes of the fruit for herself. The same thing happens in Genesis 6, these angelic beings, the sons of God. The Hebrew phrase bene ha Elohim is used. We want to take the clear passages of scripture to interpret the obscure passages of scripture. Debate, honest debate on this. Theologically, there's valid reasons to potentially hold a human reading of sons of God in Genesis 6. It's called the Satite book view. I think that this is incongruent. I don't hold to this view because you never find the phrase bene ha Elohim associated with the Sethites or the godly line of Seth. You never find the daughters of man being connected to the ungodly line of Cain. And, you know, there's also other issues that are there. But you do find clearly the phrase Beneha elohim in job one, then job two, and in job 38. And in each of those scenes, they're angelic beings. It's a divine council scene, right. Job 38 actually makes it explicit. Where were you when the morning stars, you know, saying, and the sons of God shouted for joy? So with the clear reading, we'd go, read back and go, okay, what did the sons of God do? They see the daughters of man. They desire the daughters of man and they take the daughters of man. In fact, there's that weird passage, right, with the Nephilim. Yeah, yeah, there's that. And that the production is the Nephilim, which again, is another issue. How do human men and human women produce offspring that are like massive giants, right? Like, that kind of is incoherent, but we can get into that later. And then the last one is like, David and Bathsheba. David when he was supposed to be out to war. I'm just doing the lexical connection of that phrase. See desire take. You have it conceptually in Genesis 11, but it's explicit in the story of David and Bathsheb. David was supposed to go out to war, didn't go out to war. Instead, he sees Bathsheba, he desires her, and he takes her. So what is spiritual warfare? So spiritual warfare happens right here in between the desire and the take. And I want to take it all the way back to the algorithm. The dark forces of this world are experts in mass marketing sin. The dark forces of this world are experts in mass marketing s sin. We have to be really careful that we don't correlate the incommunicable attributes of God with these dark powers. God uniquely, is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. Like, he's all knowing, all powerful in all places. The dark powers, these spiritual beings that have fallen in rebellion, are limited beings. They're limited in their time, they're limited in their space. They're limited even in their power. And so we have to be careful that we don't conflate the two. So with that, how are the dark powers going to work? They love working in systems and structures. And I truly do believe that the social media world that we live in is one of those examples of something that is neutral. Technology, I think, is a neutral thing. But anything neutral that becomes ultimate is always idolatrous. Anything neutral that becomes an ultimate longing and desire always becomes idolatrous for us. And so here's the enemy coming in. And Carrie, I've been thinking a lot about even personal fitness and the algorithm and what you're observing, what you're watching. And I really do feel like, as society, particularly as Christians, we are that frog that is in the water, that the bowl is on a stove, and over time, the burner comes on and we're just in the water. Like, everything's fine, but the water is heating up all around us until we get burned alive. We're being desensitized to the climate, spiritual activity that's happening all around us. And so you look at your algorithms and you look at fitness, and you look at. Look at the ideal human body, and that becomes this idolatrous thing. But notice there's a aspect to this that's actually really good. Should we Care for our bodies? Absolutely. Should we have good health? You bet. Should we care about our bodies as the temple of God? Yes. But there's a shift that happens where it becomes something that we do to honor the Lord, where it becomes something obsessive that we do in selfishness and self gratitude. Gratitude for our own means. I have this thing about CrossFit in the gym where I want somebody to do a PhD, study a dissertation on the rise of infidelity and divorce as CrossFit and kind of physical fitness became a cultural fad. Because I think what ended up happening is you have individuals that end up finding true community. That's great. But they're having authentic community and connections in a place that is distinct and diverse. Desperate or desperate like apart from their spouse. And so now you go to this place to find alternative counterfeit kind of community. She's hot. She's, you know, and we're talking and we have something in common. And my wife, like, she never wants to do these kinds of things or, you know, or a woman comes in, it's like, man, this dude's hot. Like, you know, he's over here working and working out and, and wants to talk to me and listens to me when I, you know. And so, so it's like, man, these are areas the enemy loves to mass market sin. You know, I was at a college campus once and I was doing this breakout. Gary, you're gonna die. I'm doing this breakout and I do a separate breakout for the gals and different one for the guys. And you know, the gals are all like, hey, we wanna get married. We wanna get married to godly men. What should we be looking for? And so I usually give a couple things. I'll say, you know, one thing be very careful of. The guy has a lot of acquaintances but is known by no one. You know, like lots of friends all over the place. There's a lot of friends, but is never really truly known or every relationship is a power dynamic. Like, be careful of that one, you know. And in today's day and age, it's. The question is not if you have been exposed to pornography, but like, what is your relationship with pornography? Like, you know, at some point you're gonna have to get, get into that. And then with the guys, you know, it's like we're talking and then we do some, some similar things. I have one guy who raises and it's like, hey, Dr. Joel. Like, I just. There's just no like really godly like, women around here. Like I just, I'm really struggling. I'm like, we're at the large. One of the largest campuses in, in like the United States. And this is the wildest claim I've heard, right? So I said to him, yeah, yeah, you know, we talk afterwards and he comes by and he's like, I'm just really struggling. I was like, hey, man, do you mind doing something for me? He goes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I was like, this is going to cost something. So like, yeah, it's like, you mind if you open up your Instagram and show me your Instagram homepage? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Opens up the Instagram homepage. And Carrie, it was like model after supermodel after, like Christian influencer celebrity who's basically a supermodel. Like, you know, like going on and I'm looking and I go, hey, man, your brain has been hardwired now to believe something about what womanhood and femininity looks like, and it's actually intentional. So the enemy loves to mass market sin. And so now you've got an algorithm that's feeding you, this is what the perfect woman looks like. This is what you should expect. This is what sex should look like. This is what intimacy should look like. And often in the conversation of spiritual warfare, Carrie, I like to distinguish between normative and non normative. So there's exorcisms and demon possessions. And I believe that all this stuff happens. Absolutely. I've seen some of this stuff in India, you know, But I don't think we ought to miss the normative ways. The enemy is working. It's these small, subtle ways that the enemy is presenting to us. See, it's good. Desire it. Absolutely. And then you have to take for yourself the response to the see, desire, take. This is what the Holy Spirit does for us, is we learn to see. We desire. That's honest. But instead of taking of our own will, we sit back and we learn to receive what the Lord gives us us. We learn to steward what God gives us instead of trying to take control of this thing for ourselves. And so I think there's a lot of pastors who are pastoring congregations that are absolutely inundated with the next thing to see this thing, the desire this thing, and take this thing at the end of it. They're becoming empty, they're becoming more lonely, there's higher levels of anxiety, there's no fulfillment, you know, and it's like, well, of course, these are all tactics of the enemy to keep you disconnected from God, keep you disconnected from his Word finding True community in the family of God, the household of God. Like the church is God's plan A. You know, like there is no plan B. In fact, in Ephesians it says that the dark powers, like, it's. It's the presence of the manifold wisdom of the church that alerts the dark powers to their demise, you know, that lets them know that they've been defeated. And so. And so it's like, wait a minute, we should care about this and we should be aware of it, and we ought to preach and teach and disciple. Not if spiritual warfare is happening, but like, it is happening and we're all a part of it. And the unseen battle always has a prize. Like every battle in human history has always had a prize. So what is the prize for this cosmic war that you and I are a part of? The prize has been, is, and always will be about the people made in the likeness and the image of God.
- [71:31]
A
So we're the prize for the.
- [71:33]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [71:35]
A
Interesting. Yeah. That. See desire, take. If you think about the big three. And I, you know, my. My take is Satan doesn't need to be creative because we keep falling for the same stuff, 100%.
- [71:45]
B
Sex, money, power, saint ancient vices packaged in new beautiful packaging.
- [71:50]
A
Sex, money, power. It's all. See desire, take. And when I read my inbox and it's just filled with stories of pastors, leaders who saw, desired and took sexually, but also sometimes financially, often it's in power. Like you say, that insatiable need for more. And I remind myself almost on a daily basis, godliness with contentment is great gain. Because there's a part of me that is wired to just want more. More downloads, more guests, more this, more that. I'm like, godliness with contentment is great gain. And it doesn't mean you lose the ambition, you lose the desire, you lose the goal of serving, but it's a purification of motives. So when you think about the unseen battle, I want to get to the nephilim, but how is this showing up in the church today? Where do you. With the battle? How's it showing up in congregations?
- [72:55]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think we discussed a bunch of them, but I think it is in sexual, in. I think it is in a desire to kind of like, what is that? The keep up with the Joneses, Is that right?
- [73:07]
A
Or it's.
- [73:09]
B
It's that whole thing, like the. Nothing's ever good enough. There's always something more that, that. That we can have. You know, the other really big one, Carrie, that I'm seeing Today is political ideology. Like.
- [73:21]
A
Like we're become a God.
- [73:23]
B
It has become a God. It has become. And I really do think that that part of spiritual warfare for us and for pastors is reminding people of ordered loves and ordered allegiances. Right now we have disordered loves and we have disordered allegiances, and the enemy wants to take lesser loves and make them ultimate.
- [73:45]
A
You probably know the origin of that. Keller talked a lot about disordered loves. I think it was the 18th century theologian Thomas Chalmers talked about disordered loves and the. The power of. What is it, the displacing power of a new affection or something like that. But where does that idea trace itself back to disorder?
- [74:03]
B
So the place that I go, there's a brilliant modern theologian. His name is James K. Smith. I'm sure you know of James.
- [74:09]
A
Yeah, I've got some of his books have not.
- [74:11]
B
Oh, my gosh, he's so great. And he actually uses an illustration, and I've used that illustration often now, but really, I think where James gets it from, where Keller got it from, from, you know, even all that, it actually goes back, I think, to Luther and Keller, Calvin, with this Latin phrase, homo incurvitus in se, which is the idea that the heart is bent in upon itself. And this is the illustration that James K. Smith gives that I think is just so perfect. He says, you know, the heart is a love pump. It's a love pump. It was always intended to pour out love. And the object of love that it was always intended to pour out was upon God. So a heart pump that pours out love on the object of affection, which is God himself. The problem was at the fall, the love pump doesn't turn off. The love pump gets knocked off kilter. And now instead of pouring out love onto God, we're pouring out love onto ourselves. And the thing that drives what we love are these. Paul talks about them as vices of the flesh, you know, selfish ambition and vain conceit and sexual gratification and power and pride. And, you know, and then the hardest ones, you know, Paul says this to Timothy is like sometimes it has the appearance, appearance of godliness, like. Like it even looks godly and denies.
- [75:27]
A
Welcome to ministry, man. Welcome to ministry.
- [75:30]
B
Yeah, and so I think that that origin comes there from disordered loves. And then the disordered allegiance idea comes directly from Paul in the New Testament, where, you know, it's Colossians 1:13. This is again, spiritual warfare language. You and I were transferred from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light. Yeah, transfer that word Dominion in Greek, it has in mind dark powers. Paul's language of dark powers related to the sons of God of the Old Testament. And I get into all this and so much more in the unseen battle is powers, authorities, dominions, thrones, elemental spirits. It's arche, excusia, dunamos, stoichea are these kind of Greek terms. And when Paul uses them, he's using them to describe dark powers. And so what ends up happening is, is there is this affection for political power. And often it comes from a good place of like, man, I want safety, I want security. I want our land to be protected. I want our families to be. To feel safe. And yet what I find fascinating is in the first century, when Paul and these first century churches have the opportunity to vie for political power, they triple down on church unity. They tripled down on the ecclesia, the gathering of the local assembly, in order to be a winsome witness to the empire, to the powers, to the city states that they lived in, in order that they might draw them, these city states into a saving, loving knowledge of the kingdom of God and Jesus, who is the king of heaven and earth. And so we live in an allegiance crisis. You know, if we say that our allegiance is primarily to King Jesus and the kingdom of heaven, then every other allegiance has to be ordered by that one. This is Lord of the Rings. This is Tolkien. This is the one ring that rules them all. And we have displaced our allegiance. And in that, it's actually, I think, creating chaos in our churches. And then to your point, what ends up happening is you have congregations that go, wait a minute, I love this celebrity pastor. I love this guy. And he's talking about the political world and he's saying all the things that I actually believe. But I wish my, my pastor would say it like, like this guy. And then maybe you have, you know, church members that come to you after a sermon that you preach and go, hey, have you ever seen this pastor?
- [77:52]
A
Hey, like, because he's taken Washington, he's taking back the state legislature. But it's that same thing with political ideology. It's seed desire. Take. We are going to take this seat, we're going to take this office, we're going to take this level of government. I mean, it's the same thing.
- [78:09]
B
I find it fascinating. Carrie, in Revelation, Chapter two, now we're getting deep. You're taking me all over the place in this conversation. Oh, absolutely. In Revelation chapter 2, I find it fascinating that when John, who's entrapped in Patmos, he's on this island as he begins to deliver the oracle of God to the church. Today you've got these seven letters to these seven cities, right? And I find it fascinating that each one opens up with seven angels and the seven angelic beings, okay? You would think that if the goal was political kind of power and prowess, that's where we ought to go. You would think that the angels would be named the angels of Ephesus or the angels of. But they're not named that way. They're named the angel of the church in Ephesus. So in other words, there is a local church that is in a city state, and angelic supernatural help comes not to the city state, Right. But actually comes to the local church that is a remnant, that is this outpost of the. In breaking of the kingdom of God. God. And in fact, there are other dark powers, and the dark powers are the ones that are in fact influencing city states. And you get this. When Paul talks about this in Ephesians, about powers, principalities and authorities, in 1 Corinthians, he talks about how if the powers knew what they were doing, they would have never sent Jesus to the cross. This is played out in geopolitical terminology. In Daniel chapters nine and ten, you've got the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece, Greece fighting against these angelic figures who come to the aid of the people of God who are interestingly held captive in a land that is not their own.
- [80:06]
A
I'm curious, what then, in your view is the right relationship of the church or Christians to power? And my position for years, and I'm in such a tiny minority on this, is you look at Jesus and he's like, go tell that fox Herod. You look at Paul, he's basically trying to convert the authorities when he has an audience with them. Not like, oh, by the way, you ought to legislate Christianity throughout the land, which is a, you know, that whole Christian nationalism thing that has really surged in the last decade, been there for 40, 50 years, but really surged in the last decade. I'm wondering, when you look at it from a spiritual perspective, biblical perspective, New Testament scholarship, scholarship perspective, what in your view is the right relationship of Christians to political power?
- [80:56]
B
I think the right relationship is subversion to the powers.
- [81:00]
A
It's a subversion or submission.
- [81:03]
B
I don't think it's. I don't think you submit to the powers. I think it's a subversive relationship to the powers.
- [81:09]
A
And this is what I wanted to be clear. So what do you mean by subverse? Like A subversion of the powers.
- [81:14]
B
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the powers want. Want to play to the vices of the flesh, and yet Jesus gives us through, you know, even the Sermon on the Mount. Think about the Beatitudes. My goodness. Yeah, the Beatitudes. You know, it starts with blessed are. The Greek word is Marcos there. I think Marcos. I think it's Makarios. I'm sorry, the Greek. I actually think a better translation of that word is flourishing. I get that from Dr. John.
- [81:39]
A
Oh, yeah, because you get happy a lot. And I'm like, what?
- [81:42]
B
No, I don't. And I actually think, contextually, it actually makes more sense. It actually has the idea. In our world today, blessing feels passive. We're the passive recipients of a divine action, that we're blessed. But this word, it has in mind a flourishing because it's like a plant who is very much dependent on the sun and the rain, right? So there's a dependency, and yet once the sun and the rain come, there is agency and responsibility that comes with it, which is to flourish in response to what you have been given. And so here is the great king of heaven and earth who pours out his divine blessing upon. Upon us, right? But it's not so we can sit back and be passive and be monks and run to the hills, right? It's so that we might flourish in the places that we are planted. Blessed are the poor, blessed are the humble. Blessed. And so you have all of that. I prefer flourishing. So what is our response to the powers? Our response to the powers is to embody the life of Christ, the cruciform life that Jesus himself presented to the powers. Jesus submits to death, to the cross. Not that that has the final say, but that through death, through the cross, Jesus defeats sin and death. And then wild, he invites you and I into his life. He invites you and I into his cruciform life. And the spread of Christianity in the first century was spread through persecution. It was spread state by the state. It was spread through individuals. Like, if you study church martyrdom, right? There came a time when martyrdom, those that were martyred, Carrie, had such high level of honor in that society that there were others who went through martyrdom but didn't die. They actually survived, right? Those individuals. And I'm pulling on some church history information, those individuals, they refused to be called martyrs. They refuse to be called martyrs because they go, no, no, no, we survived. We survived. Like, no, no, we ought to reserve this term for those that literally gave their life for the sake of the gospel. Often in front of the powers, in front of the Roman authorities, in front of empire.
- [83:53]
A
Martyrion I think is the original Greek word which literally means witness. And witness became like, basically if you're going to be a good witness, you're probably going to get killed. So it became synonymous. Is that the right etymology for that?
- [84:04]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. And what actually ends up happening is by get Constantine who comes in and persecution decreases, monasticism increases. And so as the monastic society increases, it actually kind of replaces the idea of martyrdom because you're not necessarily getting killed right and left for your faith, but you do have some level, you nailed it. You have to have some level of extreme response to show your fidelity to Christ. And so instead of withdrawing from life into death, it's like I'm going to withdraw from society and give my hope whole self off into so. But this is the response of the people of God to the powers. It is Galatians 5 and the fruit of the Spirit. The powers want us to embrace the vices of the flesh. The fruit of the Spirit says, by
- [84:52]
A
the way, we're going to use vice to claim right, to claim power.
- [84:57]
B
And yet the Spirit of God leads us into the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentlemen, gentleness, you know, like these things, forgiveness. Think about the spiritual power of forgiveness. Like these things are a witness to the dark powers when they're embodied by the family of God, the household of God, that their defeat has been established at the cross and their final defeat is coming as Christ comes in the consummation. And so you and I live in this system of the already but not yet. You know, the victory was defined at the cross. And yet we live in the not yet of the final consummation of Christ's victory. And what is our responsibility to the powers? We're not called to confront the powers. Like we find nowhere in the New Testament where you and I are called to confront the powers to seek them out. You know, like it's Jesus in the Great Commission. You would think Jesus would be like, hey, go make disciples of all nations. And while you're in Samaria and Jerusalem, find those dark powers that are there and go ahead and give them a telling to. Right, Go ahead, go ahead. And that's not what he says is go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. So what is our response to the the powers? Wild, proclaim the gospel. What is our response to spiritual warfare? Wild proclaim the gospel. And guess what? When you and I proclaim the good news of the risen Christ, we actually are going to deal with demonic stuff. We will deal with darkness. But the order matters. We don't seek after demons. We don't seek after the powers. We don't seek after those things. We seek after the prize. Where's the prize? Humans that bear the image and likeness of God. If the dark powers know they can never defeat the uncreated creator, what is the greatest way to grieve the heart of God? I'm a dad. I've got four kids. We've got three boys, 14, 13 and 11, and a little girl who's six. And we're in a season of life where we're just always basketball practice, lacrosse practice, all this stuff. And there's this moment at the end of the day, Carrie, where everybody is home right around 9:30pm and it's still chaotic in the house and they're getting ready for the next day. But the heart of my heart as a dad, it's so, so full because my family is back together. How can you grieve the heart of God? You can grieve the heart of God when the family is divided, disunified, disconnected. And so this is why I think the local church matters and the gospel matters and why we ought to have ordered love and ordered allegiance, because disordered loves and disordered allegiances will create a compromised witness of the church in the public world.
- [87:31]
A
So perhaps, I think, if I'm following your argument right, what we have when we make politics or the taking of power or the legislative agenda as an ultimate end is a disordered affection. It's out of order.
- [87:46]
B
And it's not that we ought not to be interested in those things.
- [87:49]
A
I was going to say, should our sons and daughters run for office, like, do you want Christians out of. So what happens then? Like, because you hear a lot of, we're going to send our guy or our candidate to Washington, we're going to send her to the Senate, we're going to send him to the governor's chair, that kind of thing. Is that like, what's your take on.
- [88:11]
B
Yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't think that we have. I don't think the Bible's like, hey, here's the language that we need to have. And the Bible actually, like, it's amazing. The 12 disciples aren't told to. To then infiltrate Rome and become, you know, the next Caesar. Like, that's not the. That's not the point because they kind
- [88:29]
A
of ran in the other direction they ran. Yeah, they were like, we're going to huddle in the house and share Jesus with people.
- [88:36]
B
Yeah. But you also have this sense in the Old Testament when the people of God are in exile, that they're called to be fruitful in the land that they're in exile, plant gardens, build homes, be, be good stewards of the places that you're in. And so like, for me it's like, yes, should we have Christians in the highest places of governance? Sure. Is our final hope there? Nope, don't put your hope in princes, in men, in rulers, you know, because they're going to fade and die. This comes from one of the psalms, like, they're going to fade and die just like all other human rulers. Like, we put our faith and our hope in the prince of princes and Jesus himself. It doesn't mean that we're not responsible, that individuals aren't called to political witness. It means that wherever we're called to, if you're called to politics and the, and the government or the Senate, that you represent faithfully King Jesus in those places that you put your inward allegiance on display by your policies, through your words, through your witness, you know, when the political screen runs counterintuitive to the ways of Jesus, you be the lone voice of saying no. We're calling for high moral ground and we're calling for ethics and virtues because of your personal belief in King Jesus. And so I do think that all that is there and yet we shouldn't miss that the primary means of healing and restoration to this world is through the local church.
- [89:56]
A
That's interesting. It always amazes me who listens to this podcast and I don't want to give away any private information, but there's some very high ranking government officials that will listen in the US who listen to this podcast. And I've met with one or two of them privately and you see their love for Jesus and you see their angst at the system and what they're being asked to, to do at the various highest levels of government. And I feel for that. And what I think I hear you saying is, yes, go and lobby. Bring Jesus to the Capitol, bring Jesus to the federal government. And yet your hope is not there. It's in the local church, it's in the mission that this ultimately is gonna subvert the national government. And I've always in my sort of voice in all of this political, political stuff that we've been in in the last decade plus in America and to a certain extent in Canada, where I'm from is there's another way. This is not the system. It is not to redeem the system. And that other way is through the mission of the local church. That this culture is looking for an alternative to the culture, not an echo of it. That that's what we need. We need something different. And that is the kingdom of God. It's not the kingdom of this world. So very similar along those lines. So in terms of encouragement for local church pastors, I mean, many are just outright endorsing candidates, telling people exactly how to vote. What is your counsel for them?
- [91:31]
B
My counsel is to continue the best that you can to discern the time and space that you live in. And I am not one who's going to say that this is exactly how every church pastor ought to approach politics, how to preach politics, even like your exegetical process, your view on Christian nationalism or not. The thing that I would just encourage you to do is to be faithful to the text, to be faithful to King Jesus and to have some wise counsel around you that is not an echo chamber of yes people.
- [92:03]
A
Right?
- [92:04]
B
Please have wise counsel around you that is not an echo chamber of yes people. People intentionally that are going to push against your, you know, your thought process on certain areas and allow them to be some of the closest people to you so you can rightly determine and dist discern the cost of whatever it is that you're about to preach on or teach on and say publicly. And so I think, you know, Carrie, this is a hard question because I think there are individuals that are graced for these conversations, and then there's other individuals that don't have that grace. They're not called to it. And this interesting goes back to social media. I think there's local pastors that see how Pastor A on social is handling politics and how they're speaking out and
- [92:49]
A
they're getting this big church blowing up
- [92:51]
B
in their, you know, and. And maybe that's the way of the. And I just would point. I'm like, man, that's just that, Pastor. And that's. And they might be uniquely graced for that in their society, in their context, in their community. And yet, like I think of Acts chapter 17, that it is not random or a coincidence that you are placed in the geographical locations of your existence or the time in which you breathe. Like these things were determined by. By God, your geography and the time that you breathe in order that people might come to know who Jesus is, they would find the nearness of God to them. And so, like, you are the person that God has called to that particular area. And be faithful to your community, you know, your congregation, you know, your people, seek to encourage people in their affection for Jesus. And be careful to participate. Participate in work and activity that creates more division in the household of God. And there might be wisdom in how you approach it. Not everything has to be done in the pulpit. You might do small group sessions. You might do house dinners. You might do, you know, different ways based off of what your community needs in order to disciple your people. And so I would encourage you. I've got a lot of pastor friends that will hit me up at times when these kinds of moments happen, political moments. Am I supposed to speak on it? Am I not supposed to speak on it? On it. I just want you to lift off of your shoulders the expectation that you have based off of other people, other pastors and how they do it, you know, and. And seek the Lord for what is good. And guess what? You might make mistakes. And that's okay. God is big enough to handle your mistakes. Just go back to him in humility,
- [94:28]
A
you know, So a last question or two. Back to evil. How do we better recognize it in our life? Because it's one of those topics. I think it was Lewis who said, you either see spiritual battles everywhere or nowhere. And those are the polarities. I think you quote him in your book. How do we see it clearly and accurately? And then what do we do to resist it? I think that. See desire take. I've had similar thoughts, not that well articulated in my head about, like, well, that's sexual. Sexual sin. That's financial sin. That's power. I saw it, desired it, I took it. Right?
- [95:10]
B
Yeah.
- [95:11]
A
And that. That every time I get to that verse in Genesis 3, she took, I'm like, oh, man. Like, it's just so convicting. You gotta be so careful. What. So how do you see it? And what do you do to protect yourself and maybe purify yourself? Maybe. Maybe you've fallen for it. You took the hook. Get out of it.
- [95:29]
B
Yeah. I mean, if you fall for it and you took the hook, the. The response is repentance.
- [95:34]
A
Yeah.
- [95:34]
B
You know, the response is confession and repentance.
- [95:37]
A
And nobody confesses anything anymore. We just blame everybody.
- [95:41]
B
Yeah. And. And the interesting thing about repentance is the Hebrew word shuv is a play on words. It means to turn. It means to turn away from, but it also means to return to. And the problem with the Israelites is they often do a lot of turning away from. They turn away from one idol. They would turn away from one sin, but they just end up returning to a different sin. They return to a different idol. And the idea of repentance is you turn away from your sin and you turn towards King Jesus, like you turn towards him in repentance and confession and realign your heart with his. So I just wanted to comment on that. And then in terms of, like, how do you see, like, evil in our world today? You know, I think Lewis is also helpful here where it's like, humanity has a moral compass built into us by God himself, where when we see things that happen in this world that ought not to be, there is a conscience that is built in us that responds and says, that's wrong. You know, I think our response is we have to nourish and flourish that voice of identifying what. What actually is wrong about it. What. What actually is. And. And it's almost like an exercise, a theological mind exercise of what is wrong about it. What is the image impact of that action? What are the consequences of it? And then, like, why would I even entertain it? Like, why would I even entertain. And what are the impact of that? I've got a friend, you know him, J.P. pakloda. Oh, yeah. And so J.P. is a dear friend. J.P. and I were having a conversation about this whole thing with a group of pastors one day, and he asked a question that I thought was so important. He goes, man, if the enemy was going to take you out, what would be the way that he would take you out?
- [97:18]
A
That's a great question. Mask.
- [97:20]
B
Yeah, right. Just think about it. Like. Like, you know yourself pretty well. Like, okay, like, how's cheating an affair, financial impropriety, pride, obsession, power, influence. Like, you know, like, how. How. If the enemy was going to take you out, how would he take you out? And then reverse engineer from that? You know, some. Some action, some accountability that you need to have. But, Carrie, here's the thing that I've noticed. A heart that is bent on sin is going to sin.
- [97:49]
A
Yes. Okay.
- [97:50]
B
Like, you can do all the more.
- [97:52]
A
I'm so glad you said that.
- [97:53]
B
You know, and I kind of. I have a hard time with, like, sometimes like, A plus B equals C. You know, like, just do the moralistic, therapeutic deism aspect of it. And I just go back to Psalm 51 and I go, okay, what does King David say? He says, bara, in me, create in me a new heart. Oh, God. This isn't a call for Chip and Joanna Gaines to come through and to do some fancy renovation. And of his heart. This is heart transplant. This is. My heart is wicked and corrupt and jacked up from the floor up. I need a new heart and God, I'm dependent on you for this new heart, and I'm dependent on you to sustain this new heart. And I'm dependent. And so it's a place of deep dependence. I think the way that the enemy shows up often, how we can see spiritual warfare, is the exchange of dependence. Dependence. Like, so what I mean by that is the enemy is like, oh, you don't need to depend on God, like you can depend on yourself. I like to call it the unholy trinity of me, myself and I. You know, the viral. The viral TikTok reel goes like this. Like you do you boo.
- [98:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever makes you happy.
- [99:01]
B
In fact, therapy. Like, I actually think therapy. And I, Lisa and I co host a podcast called Therapy and Theology with the licensed counselor Jim Kress. I love it. Jim and I were just. The three of us did our new season and we were talking about this. Of my personal concern of a society that is over therapized. We are overly therapized in this way that we are opting for a humanistic approach for therapy. And instead of working through the sanctification process and identifying the difference between a difficult relationship and destructive relationship, anything that is difficult, we just say, well, I need boundaries and I'm cutting that person not in my life, you know, and. But all that's doing is creating isolation. This is spiritual warfare. So I would say, like, one of the things I would want us to do is to identify areas of our life where the enemy is enticing us into deeper dependence on ourselves or created things and away from dependence on God.
- [99:58]
A
Interesting. You know, just for the record and regular listeners now or viewers will know who my therapist is. Wayne Chappelle, Dr. C. He was on with Craig and I a couple months ago. And, you know, I went to him six years ago, but I got no flaming issue in my life. But I want to know, because so many people, you know, leaders are dropping like flies, like, what's going to be my Achilles heel? What's going to take me out? And his answer was isolation. He's like, it's going to be isolation for you because you're probably not going to have an affair, probably not going to steal money, power you've wrestled with. It says it's going to be isolation. And you're right. You get isolated. So I've been very intentional this morning. I texted two friends and I'm like, what do you see in my life that is obvious to others that I'm missing. It was a Keller question that came up in my morning devotion. And so I'm actively, actively, actively trying to make sure that I see it in my life and nip it in the bud. But the reason I resonated so deeply with what you said, a heart bent on sin is to going. Going to sin. People ask me all the time because it's a regular theme on this podcast, like, why do leaders fall? What happened? What were the conditions? And we've done some deconstructions on Willow, on Hillsong, on different episodes, not from a hit piece, but just trying to understand what happened. And then often people say, well, they just need better governance or they need better accountability. But I am firmly convinced you can have the best governance structure in the world. And if you're a deceiver, you're going to figure out how to work around the system. Agree, disagree. So that's a heart bent on sin. Yeah. And you should have a good system, like have a great board, have great accountabilities built in. But if you're going to lie and you're going to cheat, you're just going to figure out a way to do it. Yeah.
- [101:41]
B
100% agree. And this is where there's a tension of sanctification here, because this is that passage, I think it's intimidated. Stresses me out, man. It's like having the appearance of godliness but denying its power that we can.
- [101:56]
A
Which is such a temptation for pastors.
- [101:58]
B
Yeah. Because the dopamine hit that we're getting is all on the outside. God, godliness looking and it's feeding, but on the inside, it is feeding. Actually the. So in my book, the Hidden Piece, the first book that I wrote, I talked about the fruit of the Spirit, and I talked about how the fruit of the Spirit get corrupt and how like the fruit of the Spirit can actually be the hidden vice, particularly for leaders. So, for instance, the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kind of understand a lot of that, right?
- [102:28]
A
Yeah.
- [102:28]
B
But when did the fruit of the Spirit go corrupt? It's when the aim of the fruit of the Spirit is not outward for the edification of the people of God and upward for the glorification of God. So the fruit of the Spirit have aim and ambition, aim out to edify the people of God up to glorify God. When it goes wrong is when it goes inward. The fruit of the Spirit are actually leveraged as a way to make ourselves feel better about ourselves, ourselves, to glorify ourselves. To increase our platform. And I think this is one of those things that is so scary for ministry leaders, particularly because we can on the outside evaluate it and go, godliness, love, joy, peace, patience. But it's all on a hook. And that hook is connected to self gratification, selfish ambition, vain conceit. And it's so deadly because on the outside it looks so good, but on the inside, inside it's corrupt. On the inside, it's corrupt. So that's why a heart that's bent on sin is always going to sin. And I think it's not like either or, it's a both. And there's got to be a level of humility that walks into this and like, what you did have some people around you. My wife is. I've got some close friends, had a situation that happened where something happened in my life. I'm an ambition guy. And a project I worked on didn't do what I thought it was going to do. And I was really mad. And I started. I started to like, vent to my friends and I started to make passive aggressive comments, you know, about this person, the other. This other person did much better than I did in this thing. And my buddy called me and goes, hey, man, your heart is bent towards pride. Like, like it is. It is. You're. You're like, you're in a bad place in your heart, you know? And so, like, I need to address it, assess it, confess, Confess it. I don't know the other. If I knew the other person personally, I would have called them and confessed it to them. You know, I wrote a letter to them. I don't know if they ever got it, but just, it's like kind of dumb, but really important because left unattended, that's the thing that's going to take me out.
- [104:32]
A
Oh, that grows. Then you give the devil a toehold. Then. Then it becomes. What is it? A besetting sin. Yeah, that's what happens, Joel. We didn't even really get to the Nephilim, so that's for next time, okay? But this is great. This is great. I've enjoyed, enjoyed this so much, and I think it's been helpful. These are the things that we struggle with. These are the perpetually reoccurring challenges I think that we have in trying to be faithful in the time that we're in. So your new book is called the Unseen Battle. It's available everywhere and I know people are going to want to track with you. What is the best place? Is there one website, social account? You Want people to track with you after. After they listen.
- [105:21]
B
Yeah. So really everywhere, it's just my last name. So on social it's at Mudamali M U D D A M A L L E. Not many of us out there, so that should pop up kind of like Newhof.
- [105:32]
A
It's like misspell it. You're gonna find it, right?
- [105:34]
B
Yeah, it's gonna. It's gonna come in. And then my website is mutamally.com kind of the same deal. And there's a link to my substack on there. And like I think we talked about earlier, I'm really passionate about subscrib substack because this longer form content, like I think we should read, you know, it's
- [105:49]
A
sort of the new blogging, isn't it?
- [105:51]
B
Yeah, yeah, I feel like it is. I feel like it is.
- [105:53]
A
Why substack as opposed to a blog? Just better discoverability or.
- [105:58]
B
Yeah, better. It's got its own social community built into it. This is kind of funny, Carrie. I actually think the people on substack right now are just nicer. Like they're more thoughtful. Like they're not kind of chaotic and crazy, you know? Like, I kind of want to, like, I'm careful even of saying it because I don't want to drive like the crazy, chaotic people over there. I almost want to like be a little bit of like a gatekeeper on it. But like, I've loved. I know, I know. Like I've loved that. But also on a pragmatic standpoint, it's based off of email. And so as an individual, you get to own your emails as a part of that kind of growth channel, which is really great that you're able to communicate to. To your people. So, yeah, next time when we talk about the Nephilim, maybe we need to do it in person because I feel like that comes. Conversation requires in person, hang, in person, hang.
- [106:44]
A
I like that. I like that approach. Joel, this has been great. It's been really good for me personally and I think you helped a lot of leaders today. Really grateful for your ministry and thanks for a robust, thoughtful and wide ranging conversation today.
- [107:00]
B
You're welcome.
- [107:00]
A
I hope you enjoyed that podcast. I really enjoyed the conversation and, well, we kind of went all over the place, but that's the point of this podcast and we didn't even get to the Nephilim, so we'll have to do that next time in person. We have show notes for this, everything we referenced and talked about. You can find them inside my Art of Leadership Academy we have over 20,000 leaders inside the Academy. Would love for you to move from the crowd to the core. We post the episodes in there as well as all the public channels. But we have some really meaningful conversations and I'd love to hear from you inside the Academy. So to do that, you can go to the art of leadership academy.com Sign up for free today. There's a premium level to it which you get all of my content, direct access to me and a whole lot more. So check it all out@theartofleadershipacademy.com also coming up we have got Dave Ferguson, Eric Reese from the Lean startup, Rich Velotis, Dr. Nicole Martin, Joshua Becker, and a whole lot more coming up on the podcast. Also, Will Guidera is coming back. How about that? That's going to be a lot of fun. He of unreasonable hospitality fans now a perpetual New York Times bestseller. I always love talking to Will and you will get all of that and a whole lot more if you subscribe or hit follow wherever you're watching or listening to this episode. If this has meant something to you, maybe share it with your team. Send them a link or a text and just let them know, hey, this has been a really good conversation. Maybe we can talk as a team. We've also got show notes in the Academy as usual. Hope you are enjoying whatever you're doing. I love it because the good weather is here. I'll be out on my bike, I will be working out, I will be mowing the lawn and listening to podcasts. All of my favorite things as spring moves into summer. So thanks so much for watching. Thanks so much for listening today. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.