← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 804 | How to De-escalate an Angry Church and Leading a Ministry You Didn't Start with Rich Villodas
01:00:53
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- [00:01]
Carrie Newhoff
The Art of Leadership Network.
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Rich Velodas
I was in cvs, Carrie. I was maybe aisle five. And I get a call, it's Pete. And he starts just emotionally, just going at it. He's processing, but in a way that he crossed the line emotionally.
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Podcast Host
Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. To all of you who are tuning in for the first time, welcome. Whether you're watching, whether you're listening, we're really, really honored you're here.
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Carrie Newhoff
What I want to do is I
- [00:31]
Podcast Host
want to bring the best conversations I can possibly have with the leaders that you admire, some of whom you've heard of, some of whom you haven't. Today, you probably heard of my guest. It's Rich Velodas. We recorded this backstage at Exponential in person. I wanted to bring it to you on this podcast because we talk about how to de escalate an angry church. You got an angry church. How do you de escalate it? People have political views, they get upset, all of those things. Well, we're going to talk about that with Rich, and we're also going to talk about how to lead a church you didn't start. So many of you are now leading ministries, taking over for a legacy pastor. What is the skill set you need when you're not the founder? Well, Rich knows that because he took over for Pete Scazzero 14 years ago and he's been leading New Life Church since then. He is the Brooklyn based lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a large multiracial church with more than 80 countries represented. And guess what? People there vote on both sides of the aisle. So he's got to sometimes de escalate political situations. We talk about how he does that. He is the author of four books, including the award winning Deeply Formed Life. And I can't wait for you to hear this conversation with Rich Velodas.
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Carrie Newhoff
Welcome to the Exponential Livestream. We're doing a live podcast, well, sort of a live stream that will also appear on my podcast probably in 2029. We work ahead. No, not quite. I'm here with Rich Velodas. Rich, it's so good to have you back. Glad to have you here. You spoke yesterday at Exponential.
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Rich Velodas
Yeah, I was at Blouse, Kerry.
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Carrie Newhoff
Yes. Here it's always good to be together. So I want to focus on. Because you're Exponential is a lot of church planters, but you are leading a church that you didn't start.
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Rich Velodas
Yeah.
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Carrie Newhoff
Your founder, your predecessor was Pete Scazzero, who a lot of leaders know has an incredible ministry And I've been thinking about this because I know more and more next gen pastors in their 30s and 40s taking over for founders. And I think it's a different skill set. Like, you know, founding, you're kind of just. You got will be church plant. It attracts a certain species, but I think it takes. I'm watching my successor, Jeff Brody, do an incredible job at Connexus and I'm like, wonder what the gift set is. So what are you learning? What have you learned 14 years in.
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Rich Velodas
Yeah.
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Carrie Newhoff
About leading a church you didn't start? Yeah.
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Rich Velodas
On one level, I think I had to be clear in terms of who I was and who I wasn't at the start.
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Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
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Rich Velodas
Which is really hard to do when you're 32.
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Carrie Newhoff
So you were 32 when you took over for Pete.
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Rich Velodas
Yeah.
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Carrie Newhoff
And he had been there for how long?
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Rich Velodas
26 years.
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Carrie Newhoff
Wow.
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Rich Velodas
And so I look back, I go, what were they thinking?
- [03:12]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
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Rich Velodas
32 year old in this space here. But I think Pete really helped me at the start to ask that question, who are you? Who are you not? The other thing is, in terms of the skill that I had to slowly develop, especially with Pete, because the arrangement he had was he was going to remain on the staff in a different role. And we were clear with job descriptions, we were clear with finances, we were clear with how much he was going to get paid for how long. We were clear with all that. And yet he brought a presence. And so the area of growth was really one of the moments when I need to be Moses listening to Jethro versus when are the moments when David with King Saul and so not calling Pete King Saul, but you know, Saul was putting on his armor.
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Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah.
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Rich Velodas
And there were times where David had to say, this armor doesn't fit me. I have to go in a different direction. And there were times where I had to do that. Pete had his will for my life and his will for the church. And there are moments where I have to say, no, I don't think this fits me. Or he had great wisdom. Moses goes to his father in law, Jethro, and Jethro says, what you're doing is not good. Here's some wisdom for you around delegation and such. And so that that discernment was hard, but it was a muscle I had to learn to exercise. And I think it culminated with just the growing ability to experiment. So having a culture where there's space for experimentation, especially when you're taking over for someone for 26 years, is something I think not just I. But I think our church as a whole need to embrace.
- [04:48]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah. And, you know, I mean, this is a common story these days, but when someone's been there for 20, 30 or more years, they leave a big shadow. How did you deal with that? How did you and Pete deal with that?
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Rich Velodas
On. On one level, I think I was as strong or maybe a stronger preacher than Pete.
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Carrie Newhoff
Okay.
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Rich Velodas
And so if I. I'll just say how it worked for us. And so Sunday's a big thing.
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Carrie Newhoff
Yep.
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Rich Velodas
My ability to be able to say, there's not going to be a drop here. I think in some respects, I'm not saying this is good or bad, but good preaching covers a multitude of sin in the church.
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Podcast Host
It does.
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Rich Velodas
So because of. I think that gave me enough of a. Okay. If I was a bad preacher or if I didn't communicate well with the. With the people, they were so used to Pete for 26 years, it would have been hard. And so. But it was also. Pete did enough work on himself and created a context where it was invitational. So the help that I was requesting, it wasn't him going to me. It was, hey, whenever you need. Because I wasn't good at vision casting. I was. In fact, it probably took me 10 years to learn how to cast vision. Well, the first 10 was very sloppy, very vague, very ambiguous. And Pete was, after 26 years, an exceptional vision caster. And so some of the things just. It just takes time. So how did it work? It was a patient community, a patient board recognizing. Rich is really young, but we believe in him and what he will grow into. I think all of those things, it wasn't just me. I think it was the larger community ethos that allowed a transition like this to happen.
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Carrie Newhoff
Really. Well, if you look at Pete's, You've already hinted a little bit about preaching and vision casting, but if you were to look at Pete's gifts, skill sets, your gifts and skill set, what's different? And I'll give you an example. Like when I passed things over 10 years ago to Jeff Brody, I realized Connexus needs some management. And I'm not a manager. And Jeff was a much better manager than I am. He's a fantastic leader, but he's actually a really good manager. And I'm like, change all the time. It's like, sometimes change when we don't need to change. And I realized, oh, my pace is not healthy for this church right now. And Jeff's more patient. He's more thoughtful. So I saw that gift mix, and I thought I Think I've done what I've come to do. I feel released from this calling. And then obviously, I went on to help lead leaders, but I saw the different skill set and I'm not making any universal prescriptions. But I'm just curious, when you look
- [07:28]
Rich Velodas
at Pete, you look at you.
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Carrie Newhoff
What did you bring that he didn't have? And what did he bring that you don't need or didn't have?
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Rich Velodas
I think big difference. Collaboration. So my ability to collaborate more.
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Carrie Newhoff
Jeff too. I'm a bit of a lone ranger, less so now.
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Rich Velodas
Yeah. Pete would come from the mountain and then say the word of the Lord, sabbatical, here it is. And anybody can go, thanks me to God, you know, and so there was that there. But also, I mean, it's interesting with your successor, I think this is not my forte, however, I was a lot stronger in building systems, and so even financial systems, even volunteer systems. You know, Pete, he had a prophetic edge in which he was going to swing the pendulum. And I was trying to figure out, how do we hold tensions? And so he was. So, for example, he went on this. He went from. He went from a charismatic prophetic guy to like, the monastery swinging. You talking about swinging a pendulum? He kind of put like a moratorium on the Holy Spirit. Like, we've had enough craziness in the 90s. Because he was Pentecostal.
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Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, they were.
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Rich Velodas
They were hosting like, prophetic conferences, which is crazy to think of right now. John Wimber, all the folks within that tribe of people were at Queensland. And he swings the pendulum to like, or we're going to hang with monks now. And what I tried to do is say, how do we systematize or create hold the tensions together? I think that's the gifts that I brought where. So, like, one of the first things I did because of Sabbath and emotional health, bunch of people came to new life to recover. And I'm thinking this work to get done. You people, you get one Sabbath a week. You don't get sids. And so I had seen Swing the Pendulum and say, we want to be a contemplative community on mission. And so the first thing I did at our new annual members meeting was to get every new member of our church who's rooting themselves in our community a towel. John 13. Jesus cleaning the feet of his disciples. I was saying, if you're going to be rooted in this church, you are saying yes to serving with us here. That was not language that Pete necessarily used because his prophetic edge was trying to name what are the big pendulum swifts that shifts that need to be made? And I think personality wise, for me, I'm more so how do we hold these two bits in tension?
- [09:52]
Carrie Newhoff
So those are some differences that you had between you and Pete. What about the relationship? Like you. You said Pete, like you clearly defined some roles and obviously 14 years in this has worked out quite well. I'm sure you had some moments behind the scenes that might have been tense. But there's a sea of disasters when it comes to pastors who stick around. I had somebody tell me once in the corporate world, like, when you're done as CEO, your desk is clear and security may not show you the door, but it's almost the same as security showing you the door. It's like, this is your last day, all your stuff is gone. Nobody keeps an office down the hall for the former CEO. We do this in the church all the time.
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Rich Velodas
Yeah.
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Carrie Newhoff
And I stayed on and I was a teaching pastor for a few years and now I'm just founding. And that takes a very delicate balance because I'm in Pete's position where I was handing something off. I say to pastors all the time, you have incredible power to destroy your church and all you have to do is start whispering about Jeff or Rich behind his back with the influencers, like small group, oh, I really don't like the direction of this church. I don't know what happened. And then you played a little pity party and they're like, well, it was so much better under you. Which is not true in my case. But if it was, you know, it was so much better under you. And then you become the hero in your own mind and all that. How do you avoid that?
- [11:17]
Rich Velodas
The reason why Pete Scazzero is the most significant mentor I've ever had and probably the most significant influence. I've had numbers of great, but he's probably number one for me is because of his humility. The. I'll tell you a story here. Pete promised me that he was not going to get in the way or allow his anxiety to kind of disrupt what was happening until he allowed his anxiety to disrupt. And I'll give you an example there. It happened two occasions in the first four years. I cannot name two, only two in the first four years. I was in cvs, Carrie. I was maybe aisle five for getting deodorant or something like that. And I get a call, it's Pete, which if I pick it up right now, this is either going to be a two hour conversation or, you know, A two second conversation. So I pick up and he starts. It's. All the pleasantries are exchanged in the first 30 seconds. And he was building a ministry, emotionally healthy discipleship. One of the gaps that we did not anticipate was the level of administrative support he was going to need as he was moving out from senior pastor to building something else. And so he. It would be lots of confusion. He'd go to the staff, right.
- [12:34]
Carrie Newhoff
And I use the staff I used to that I hired.
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Rich Velodas
And staff, do we work for Rich or do we work for Pete? And so if staff is confused, they're showing resistance. Pete's mad at me. And so he calls me as I'm in aisle five and he starts just emotionally, just going at it. He's processing, but in a way that he crossed the line emotionally. And so I hang up. This is probably a three, four minute conversation. I'm furious, I'm angry. He said he wasn't gonna do that. And so I, I called back about 20, you know, now I'm 33 years old. You know, this is my mentor. But he's trained me in the ways of, like the Jedi here. So he's like, I was his Padawan, he was like. And I said, he's trained. I'm going to use the things he's taught me on him. And so I said, hey, Pete, can we, can we just. He called me hey, Rich. He totally forgot about the conversation first. Got it off his chest. You got it just. He was a free man. He was like, joy. And I say, ap, can we talk about the conversations? What conversation? I was at CBS in aisle five and you called me and I just said, you know, you emotionally vomited on, and you say, you aren't going to do that. And I noticed that. And Pete was so humble and repentant and honest and Rich. That got the best in me. And I just thought, this is who I want to be, love. And I think so. It worked because of his humility, his willingness to say, I was wrong and I'm sorry. And that happened a couple of times. There are other times where. And I've had conversations with people about this, where it took me a while to find my footing in terms of direction for the church. When I think about vision, I think about formational vision and directional vision. I was great with formational vision, spiritual formations. But, yeah, who are we as a community? What is God? What are the values of our community? Who has God called us to be? Directional vision is, which mountain are we going to take? Which direction are we Going to go, I wasn't good at that. And so he was really good at that. Where are we gonna go? What's the priorities? What's the vision? And so he'd always go, rich, what's the vision? And I'm like, I don't know what the difference is to get to know Jesus, to pray. And he was looking for markers and measures and how do you do that there? And so me being able to say this is not really helpful. But his humility, I think ultimately carried. That's what made it work. His willingness to say, I crossed the line. I said I wasn't gonna do that. I wanna be your champion and your support.
- [15:13]
Carrie Newhoff
And basically he's done that with a couple of very slight exceptions.
- [15:17]
Rich Velodas
For 14 years, he's been my number with Sam. Wow. Yeah.
- [15:23]
Carrie Newhoff
What about ego? Because there can always be a competition, you know, a pre job and maybe a greater communication skills or, you know, the church is now bigger and better under your leadership. How have you worked on that competitive streak, ego? Anything in you that might want to up pee?
- [15:44]
Rich Velodas
Well, in the first few years, I allowed that to get ahold of me very quickly. And it was my own insecurities. I wanted to prove that they got the right person for the job. And for me, what that meant was we were going to start in congregations, we were going to grow this church, we were going to take our budget and make it higher. And so the first two years I was already trying to offer new milestones, but it was sheer out of insecurity.
- [16:14]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay. When often that bravadaccio, whatever you want to call it, that comes out of insecurity?
- [16:19]
Rich Velodas
Yes. Right. I didn't think, I thought I had to prove myself to the board and prove myself to the church, that. So for me, preaching wasn't enough. It was. I had to show I'm a leader as well. And so the eagle, I mean, in fact, what curved that back? We did a. No. Ruth Haley Barton has this book on discerning God's will together. And we were thinking about, should we start a new congregation within the first two years. It's been crazy, like this year. And we got in a group, about seven of us, and for about three hours asking some simple discernment questions. And it got so clear that this would be the worst thing for us to possibly do at this moment. It actually took us 10 years before we started another congregation. And I thought if we did it any time before, it would have been disastrous for us. But that was us. I'm not saying that's the recipe for everyone. But for us, that was the right way for us to go. So ego.
- [17:22]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
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Rich Velodas
I mean there's lots of idros. I mean, in me on one levels I get very competitive. I want to. But I want to show I am like my. The shadow side that I live with is my need to show I'm competent. I know, I know how to do this thing. And if that's the force, the energy that's driving a lot of decisions, it's going to be some bad places, man.
- [17:51]
Carrie Newhoff
What other skill sets do you think are required of the next pastor, the non founder?
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Rich Velodas
You know, back to what I mentioned earlier, I mean, I do think an ability to experiment. So what are the things to say, you know, what are the points of continuity and the places of discontinuity? And I'm not sure if that's a skill carry, but what are the things that we want to continue to honor? What are the things we want to continue to establish, grow deep roots in? And then what are the places where adaptation is required? Right. And so adaptive leadership, I think is really important because otherwise what's going to happen is you're going to be a clone of the predecessor or you're going to be something so different. And I don't think. I think what communities need are points of continuity with the founder and the next person, as well as important points of discontinuity. What makes this person a bit different? What are the areas of emphasis? And then secondly, skill wise. And this is so ministry specific and church specific in my case, because of the emphasis of Pete swinging pendulums and offering new initiatives. I mean, I had to figure out ways to contextualize and systematize. But that was for me. I think every pastor's gonna have to figure that out in their own context.
- [19:25]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, I mean, I can see that. If you were. So Pete was there for 26 years, you've been there for 14 in this role.
- [19:32]
Rich Velodas
18 as overall.
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Carrie Newhoff
14 overall, but 14 as lead pastor. Speaking about change, if somebody was to come and see your church today versus 14 years ago, would it be recognizable? Totally different, Lots of twists. How would you describe it? Because, and partly, you know, sometimes founders are like, I want you to preserve my legacy. It's a disaster. It's like, no, but what's different?
- [20:00]
Rich Velodas
What's same? The same is the values that have made up our community. Like, because these values were so formative in my own life, I believed, I didn't, I. You didn't have to sell me on the values that changed my life. So when you're talking about emotional health or the contemplative life, you're talking about those formational values that remains now. What changes is the level of emphasis that we place on these things here. And so whereas in one season of our church's life, it's the contemplate. How do we slow down living in New York City, how do we slow down? And then there are places where, like, right now, we're in a big season of missional engagement where we are pushing, we're pressing on this invitational culture that we've avoided for many years about invitation and making somebody voided. We have not pressed on, like, invite your friends, not people come and people do it. Yeah, but I. Not until last year did we do, like, we're going to create lots of energy and move our church towards being super into invitational in small groups, but not Sunday. And it was my, I think, my own kind of reaction to, like, church girl stuff.
- [21:07]
Carrie Newhoff
Oh, okay.
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Rich Velodas
And I was gonna say it was that intentional. Yeah. It's probably my own, like, allergies to some of the church growth stuff that was invitational but not formational. And. And I think the two can coexist.
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Carrie Newhoff
Okay.
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Rich Velodas
100%. However, I think I. I swung the pendulum a bit. So. But now, like, the level of missional energy right now, evangelism, invitation, is through the roof right now. In fact, we did this initiative, it's really funny, called Pick three, Pray, invite, Connect. You had three people. So I said, over the next six months, we want you to pray for three people. Are not Christians that you're friends with or wherever we want you to invite them. Doesn't have to be Sunday. It could be another event in the life of our church and that you would meaningfully connect with them. And we do some classes, how to do all that stuff. There's a. Well, I didn't think people were actually going to do it.
- [22:01]
Carrie Newhoff
I think.
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Rich Velodas
I think people were just people signing up and inviting your friends with enthusiasm. And the funniest thing is when they introduce their new friend who's not a Christian, they go, pastor Rich, meet John. He's one of my pick three. And I'm going, no. Like, no, Jo, don't say it. Don't say that. And John, the non Christian who's there, he goes. I'm just so proud that he chose me as a pick three guy. Yeah, that's happened about four times in the last three months where it's like, this is my pick three. I'm like, no, that's not what I say. Here. But all that to say what has changed is some of the emphasis. There are other things that have changed. Pete was not big on music. I'm huge on music. Pete didn't care much about stage design and environment in that respect there. In small groups, he really cared about design there. But a larger. My thing was like, how's the room look? What's the lighting like? What's the sound? Why is that person leading worship? That person should be needing worship. So I'm very, like, clear about those things there. So you're going to see that's going to change and then. But the values of who we are, that's.
- [23:14]
Carrie Newhoff
That's the same. What was your allergy to church growth?
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Rich Velodas
I think my allergy to church growth
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Carrie Newhoff
was
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Rich Velodas
I had been part of churches that were very large or very thin. And so I think my own sense of wanting to avoid any. I wanted to do formation. And I think as a result, what I emphasized and prioritized. So even, like, let's look at Alpha, for example. Yeah, we did alpha when 2006, 2007, we started doing alpha groups of 40, 50 people that. I mean, our church started really growing here. And then we've started introducing emotionally healthy discipleship material. Now there's only so much space in the church's calendar to where you're going to emphasize. Right. You started emphasizing more formation. But part of it, I think it was. I think it was part of Pete's allergy that got on me.
- [24:15]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay.
- [24:16]
Rich Velodas
So his, you know, what did covet had the transmissibility rate, so. Oh, yeah. So the transmissibility rate of his allergies were on me as well.
- [24:25]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay. So he was allergic to church grove.
- [24:28]
Rich Velodas
He, He. He was not enamored with growth, but with depth. Yeah. And I think because of that back to the pendulum swinging, his thing was, I've had to hold together. We can do depth and we can do growth. And I think because of his kind, more prophetic kind of. No, we're going to do depth. So the church can go down to 30. We're going to do depth. Like, okay, this is ideogram 4 talking here. But we're going to be unique, which is his favorite one.
- [24:58]
Podcast Host
We're special.
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Rich Velodas
I'll be special. You know, we're going to do this thing here. So I think, you know, I've seen large churches, were very thin, spiritually speaking, and I wasn't impressed with it, although I want to see the church grow, but that's not where my energy was going. Now I'm going, no, I think we can prioritize both depth as well as growth. And I think that's. I'm in a fresh season of learning. That
- [25:25]
Carrie Newhoff
what changed your mind?
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Rich Velodas
In some respects, I think Covid did. The level of pain I saw, you know, Queensland, our neighborhood, was the global epicenter of the.
- [25:37]
Carrie Newhoff
It was those pictures we remember from COVID that was in your neighborhood, one mile from people dying on stretchers, put
- [25:45]
Rich Velodas
in refrigerators outside the hospital. There was no room in the hospitals for these dead bodies. And so the level of pain I saw, the level of spiritual openness I saw, yeah, I realized in a fresh way it sounds so like, yeah, like people really need Jesus. Like, I know that I say that every week, but in terms of the level of how are we going to now build that out into our culture? We want people to know who Christ is. And I think the pandemic opened something up in me, an evangelistic impulse that I had since the very beginning when I became a follower of Christ. I think I do have a gift of evangelism, and I think I allowed that to just equip, to quell that. And I think it's coming back.
- [26:33]
Carrie Newhoff
Did your attitude toward seeing people reached church growth, did that impact how quickly or slowly your church was growing? I mean, there's that old saying, speed of the leader, speed of the team. So when you changed your mind, did it change the trajectory about reaching new people in your church?
- [26:54]
Rich Velodas
Yeah, in very surprising ways. Yes. I. For me, it was like, we're going to swing the pendulum. We're going to emphasize this. It might lead to nothing, might lead to some marginal growth here. You know, before the pandemic, we were at three services. Our church is about 1500 people in our Queens location. And we had to go back to one service. Then we're at two. We started doing this. We realized we have to go back to three now because of the amount of people that are coming to our church. So we have seen for sure correlation between that shift and some folks are just so thrilled because they're evangelists or they want to invite their friends. And now that they have permission to do that in a way that we're doing it as a church as a whole. So I've definitely seen in some surprising ways, you know, that girl taking place.
- [27:47]
Carrie Newhoff
What are some of the emotional dynamics of leaving a church is in skirt?
- [27:54]
Rich Velodas
I think in the church, people are used to a certain voice. And, you know, it's the adage that people are. It's not that people are afraid of change. It's they're afraid of loss. And. And so Pete was their shepherd. You were the shepherd. Yeah. And so you get accustomed to a particular voice. And so I think to. To make space for that. So I. So the emotional dynamics was just the levels. The levels of grief, but also because Pete had 26 years of just relational investment, the emotional dynamic was there's not as much trust as much as Pete was in my corner, everyone else. It just takes time for people to gain trust with the new person. And so there's some angst, there's some fear. There's some. When something happens in society, can we. Can I trust Rich in this moment?
- [28:51]
Carrie Newhoff
How long did that take for them to stop looking to peace and start looking to you?
- [28:59]
Rich Velodas
I would say a large portion of the church, because of our process, was pretty slow. I think they started looking to me. Some of the older folks, I probably tired, maybe four years.
- [29:12]
Carrie Newhoff
What happened to you in the midst of that when you knew they were still lived in Pete?
- [29:16]
Rich Velodas
Well, the great thing that Pete kept doing was he kept saying, go to Rich. I said, Pete was. Pete wasn't entertaining any of that. And I. And I. I had great confidence that anyone is going to Pete. Pete was going to be behind me 100%. You can trust Rich.
- [29:33]
Carrie Newhoff
And he was. But that took up to four years for some.
- [29:37]
Rich Velodas
Wow. Yeah, wow.
- [29:38]
Carrie Newhoff
And then there's a bunch of new people that came in who have only known you. Right.
- [29:42]
Rich Velodas
In fact, we did an emotionally healthy spirituality course from September to November of this past year. And sometimes you show his video, because I want to, like, this is the guy who started the church. I want to saw a video of him. Like, so I go, who has never met Pete Scazzero? And the vast majority that rune, their hands just go up. Wow. And it's just like, oh, yeah, we're in a new day right now. And one day someone's going to go, who's never met Rich Velocity before. He's going to go in video. That's part of the deal.
- [30:13]
Carrie Newhoff
And Gordon McDonald's advice to me when I was transitioning into founding pastor was said Gordon, what word was to be how he goes. They forget you cook. It's true. It's true. They forge you quickly. I've had to be introduced to volunteers. We were on a Christmas Eve service last year, and I would scan my ticket because we had free tickets. And she's like, oh, I don't have your tickets. Not coming up. What's your name? I'm like, Newhof Nieuw. And then another volunteer Saw what was going on and said. Came over and kind of intervened and said, he started the church. I'll take this space.
- [30:51]
Rich Velodas
One guy comes. Pete preached once, this is probably 2019, and a guy was new to the church who was just, you know, he was preaching very rarely at those times he comes up to me, goes, that guy, you should add him to the preaching. And I was like, he's okay. I'm like, I don't think so. But he was like, they forget you.
- [31:12]
Carrie Newhoff
What's your relationship with Pete like now? You said he's one of the most influential people in your life. He's actually handed. Emotionally healthy discipleship.
- [31:20]
Rich Velodas
My friend Drew Keon, who. We were both pastors at New Life. Yep.
- [31:23]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah. So Drew is running that full time. And he is now, what, a full time moke or.
- [31:29]
Rich Velodas
So Pete, talk to him again. It's funny. He called me. I called him a couple of days ago and all I heard was screaming. Screaming children. Oh, his grandchildren. So he was rich. I'll call you back. So what's my relationship with. I'd say we probably get in a call once a month and that calls usually an hour to an hour and a half. It's usually when I'm driving and, hey, Pete, what's up? And it's pure joy. He is. Remains such an encourager. From the very beginning, he kept saying, new life. This is New Life 2.0. This is a new new life. And he kept offering that kind of language. So today.
- [32:12]
Carrie Newhoff
That's a good framing, actually. Yeah, I wish I would have thought of that because it is Connexus 2.0.
- [32:17]
Rich Velodas
Yeah.
- [32:17]
Carrie Newhoff
I led 1.0, did a decent job, I think.
- [32:20]
Rich Velodas
Okay. And someone will take over for 2.0.
- [32:23]
Carrie Newhoff
Would matter every. Yeah, that's a good framing. I think that would help outgoing pastors too, think through.
- [32:29]
Rich Velodas
Yes.
- [32:30]
Carrie Newhoff
It's not the same and they don't owe you anything.
- [32:32]
Rich Velodas
Right. But the relationship remains wonderful. So whenever I find myself stuck, even. Even today, there's moments of like, I just need someone who's been in this seat. I'm happy to talk to the board. I'm happy to talk to pastor friends, I'm happy to talk to my buddies from around the country. But this guy's pastored in this space for 26 years. He knows his community. And there are times where I just. Pete, I just need to hear your word of wisdom on this year.
- [33:02]
Carrie Newhoff
Jeff Brody and I do that every other Thursday afternoon we get together. His invitation. I fire myself at the end of every year, and he just it's his meaning he can talk about whatever, he can vent, he can rant, he can ask questions. And I just kind of sit there. I really look forward to it. And sometimes I offer an opinion, sometimes I just listen. I only talk when I'm, you know, I only offer an opinion when I'm asked because free advice isn't appreciated advice. So I can give that to the Internet. I can give that to the Internet. I'll just give my advice to the Internet for free. So. Okay, that's good. I want to talk about spiritual formation because that's such a big area of yours. Your books are in spiritual formation, but you also pastor in New York, and it's a diverse community. I mean, politically. And one of the stories of any kind of church right now is pastoring in a highly divided society. So you're doing spiritual formation, and you and I have talked about this before. You've got people on both sides of the aisles in your church. You're not like a Republican church or a progressive church. You like, you got the whole smattering of God's people. Is it 72 nations if I remember.
- [34:10]
Rich Velodas
80 now, eh?
- [34:11]
Carrie Newhoff
80 nations represented in your church. So people who have different perspectives, politics, lifestyles, eat different foods, dress differently, like a real melting pot, which is heaven. What are you learning about pastoring in a partisan age where everything is so hyper divided and no matter what you do, you get criticism.
- [34:36]
Rich Velodas
Yeah, I think I've learned that at the core of navigating that reality is to name this is not necessarily a political or a social reality to manage, but an emotional one to be. What I mean by that is so much of the division we see in the world is marked by a level of fear that people are. Ewing deepened our bows. If we can offer language for some of that, that can. That's a really great starting point to begin to unwind and untangle the reactivity and emotionality that begins to arise whenever you're talking about big political divisive issues. And so. So that's 1, 2. I think it's the emotional system of the community, which is why for me, you know, systems thinking and family systems remains an important facet of pastoral ministry and formation in this moment in history. How do we, you know, this idea of differentiation, I think we've talked about it before and I keep getting tighter and tighter on my definition of it. Differentiation is this. Is this process of holding on to distinction without disconnection, especially in times of disagreement and distress.
- [35:55]
Carrie Newhoff
So say that one more time.
- [35:56]
Rich Velodas
Four deeds. It'll be memorable here. No, that's good distinction. I have. I have thoughts on something. You have thoughts on something. It's distinct. They were different distinction without disconnection. And by that I'm talking about emotional.
- [36:08]
Carrie Newhoff
We're going to say in relationship with.
- [36:10]
Rich Velodas
In times of disagreement and distress.
- [36:13]
Carrie Newhoff
Wow.
- [36:14]
Rich Velodas
And so we. We have. Pete establishes. I really built on this. Pete's doctorate is. Is in family systems with the focus on the genogram. Yeah. And I have built on this to say the way to deal with the polarizing times that we're in is to pay attention to our own emotional functioning. And if we can begin to do that now that it's the time. That's not. Not going to get that in a cernan. It's. How are we building leaders? What's the ecosystem of formation in the community.
- [36:41]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [36:41]
Rich Velodas
Where we're giving people. We're equipping people to pay attention to their emotional system so that the family dynamic of the church is not. Does not succumb to distress and disagreement. And so that's been a life's work over the last. I feel like. I don't know, maybe. What's the lesson of PhD? In the last eight years, I think I failed. And I've learned a lot about how to do this.
- [37:08]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, man. So let's talk about that. Because, I mean, so many pastors now. We did a special episode with Ed Stetzer and your friend Sharon Hodding Miller.
- [37:17]
Rich Velodas
Yep.
- [37:18]
Carrie Newhoff
Sorry. Thank you.
- [37:19]
Rich Velodas
And another gentleman from California. Yeah.
- [37:21]
Carrie Newhoff
Adam Mesa. And they. They were really helpful. But I hadn't heard the framing about it being an emotional thing. And you're right. I can disagree with you. But if I'm emotionally not in a healthy place.
- [37:32]
Rich Velodas
Yeah, I see. But can you. There you go.
- [37:34]
Carrie Newhoff
I'm just gonna lose it on you.
- [37:36]
Rich Velodas
Yeah.
- [37:36]
Carrie Newhoff
Right. Like on a day where I've rested and have margin in my life, I'm in traffic and somebody cuts me off. I'm like, no, they cut me off the day when I'm fried, you know?
- [37:47]
Rich Velodas
Yeah.
- [37:48]
Carrie Newhoff
So I think that's what you're getting at. How do you let a church know, like, dude, you're out of bounds? Like, what. What's the framing for that?
- [37:59]
Rich Velodas
Well, I think I have tried to normalize anxiety as part of the human condition. And what I mean by anxiety is really important. There's a number of pastors who say, I don't feel anxiety. And what they mean by that is they don't feel excessive worry or concern. Anxiety is far more than just excessive worry or Concern anxiety is an automatic response to a real perceived flare. And so anxiety can show up in anger, it could show up in coercion, it can show up in manipulation, it can show up in avoidance, it can show up in powering down or shrinking that.
- [38:38]
Carrie Newhoff
And so, yes, call that every pass their leadership techniques.
- [38:41]
Rich Velodas
Oh, if, if, if we can name the presence of anxiety and in the myriad forms it takes, I think in many respects it kind of equalizes the community of. Like this. We're all doing this. And now the primary task as followers of Jesus in this community is to pay attention to my own reactivity. If we can start there, if we can start at that point, we are already. So we're down the line now because we're not now trying to figure out the issue. We're not trying to deal with the issue first. We're trying to deal with our own emotional functioning first. When you start talking about the issue first without the emotional functioning. This is why social media never gets anywhere around negotiating differences well on that platform, because no one's paying attention to their emotional process. They're paying attention to the issue. And so that's been my primary work is so when someone's out of line, out of line, number one, I'm trying to pay attention to my own self. And then how do I have a mature conversation with someone with a goal of remaining close to them? See, my goal is not just to put you in your place. My goal is to remain close to you and say, that's a violation of our values.
- [39:53]
Carrie Newhoff
Hmm.
- [39:53]
Rich Velodas
And you can talk about it.
- [39:55]
Carrie Newhoff
It's such a widespread issue. I mean, I was calling back some organization yesterday, got their voicemail thing, and it's like just a note. Any rude or intolerant behavior will not be tolerated by our team. We may kick you out as a client. This is like a disclaimer almost everywhere. You go to a fast food restaurant, there's that sign. You go to a hospital, there's that sign. You go to wherever, there's that voicemail prompt. And I'm like, what kind of world are we living in? And that's only there because they probably get yelled at every day by some irate persists. So you had a whole church that's on edge. It's a tinderbox. Most people are frustrated. Most people are stressed.
- [40:37]
Rich Velodas
Yeah.
- [40:37]
Carrie Newhoff
How you disciple them. Is that a sermon series? It's like, guys, chill out. Like, what? I know it's part of the emotionally healthy thing, but, like, what are you doing to make that part of the culture in Your church.
- [40:49]
Rich Velodas
I think the approach I've taken, I've discovered over the last 14 years, this has been one of the learnings. And it sounds so obvious, but in fact, I think it was Apostle Moses said today, yes, about preaching. He thought preaching was just going to grow the church. If you just had good sermons, it's going to grow. And sometimes it happens in some places here. But I discovered that all my polished sermons are not nearly enough to create a new emotional system. And so the approach I've taken, I think in concentric circles about almost everything that I do. And by that, I mean, what are the communities, the small starting small. And it's usually four layers of concentric circles, beginning with the board, the Lee team, the larger pastoral team, and then the staff as a whole.
- [41:38]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [41:39]
Rich Velodas
And so how do I now work in that spaces with them, which is to have a long view of formation. This is not going to happen in a sermon. It's not going to happen in the workshop. And so, for example, three years ago, I had our board, at the start of every board meeting month here, we were going to read a book by a guy named Peter Steinke called Uproar about, you know, common or Age of Anxiety. And I said, we're in a really bad place as a country. We are. We're going to leak this book and we're going to talk about anxiety and the ways it's showing up in our church. That was a year of formation and then did the same with our SAF team. And so I think in the Americanized Western, like, this has to happen very quickly here. It's totally antithetical to their wonderful book, the Patient Ferment of the Early Church by Alan Kreider about how the church grew very slowly. This is Eugene Peterson, you know, long obedience in the same direction. A guy came up to me today and said after one of the workshops, so, Rich, you've been talking about racism, you've been talking about whatever. I'm the new pastor. How should I go about doing this? And I said, you listen to me very clearly, carefully, and do what I tell you. And I said, before you preach any sermon, no matter who's telling you on the Internet to do it, you should be talking about whatever like that. To what degree are you, with your board and your senior team working through this first? And I said, once you do that, and if you get their trust and alignment, then you can start talking large. But what pastors do is they're going right to the pulpit or to social media without trust, without Alignment. That's why we're seeing, you know, all of the church splits and conflicts and all the rest there.
- [43:24]
Carrie Newhoff
You did this during last couple of election cycles too, right, where you worked through your approach. And that's really interesting, you know, because, I mean, when I stepped out of senior leadership in 2015, it was not nearly as divided as it is now. But I lead our company and I try to find that voice. But one of my approaches, like for example, gossip, church gossip, drove me crazy. We were a zero gossip culture. How do we get that through a church of thousands of people who called that church hold? It was easy. Worked through it with the staff. Yeah. Work through it with the board. We don't gossip. Somebody walks in my office, I'm like, oh, you got a problem with Rich? You talk to Rich, right? Go, go talk with Rich. Oh, it's not that big a deal. Well, then you don't have the problem.
- [44:06]
Rich Velodas
Or.
- [44:07]
Carrie Newhoff
Or, you know, then yeah, go and talk to Rich and you guys work it out. And if you can't, I read Matthew 18. So did you come and see me and we'll see if we can work it out between you. I never had to blow the whistle and play the cough because they always worked it out or it wasn't a big deal. We don't have a gossiping church. It's amazing. And our cultural values. I have a small company now, team wise, but like, it's amazing. We had 20,000 leaders in the Art of leadership Academy. There's a code of conduct that you read when you enter. We don't have fights and it's a digital form. It's amazing. But that's that speed of the leader, speed of the team thing. So what you're saying is a lot harder than the next sermon series and the next reel you're going to post or the next story you're going to post. But what you're saying is you work through this at the top, then if you get healthy at the top, you'll be healthy throughout. If you get healthy at the top, you'll be healthy. What happens there? Like, if you're walking your elders, you got Republic, you have both sides of the aisle on your board.
- [45:03]
Rich Velodas
Yes, we do.
- [45:04]
Carrie Newhoff
Hopefully you do.
- [45:04]
Rich Velodas
Yes, we do.
- [45:05]
Carrie Newhoff
Right. That's a good thing. You have people who don't always agree, what does that look like? Does it get rough in the private conversations? Do you like, how do you handle that?
- [45:17]
Rich Velodas
When almost every election cycle I do at least a three nick series on navigating and what I say at the start. Like I said last time, if you vote for, no matter who you vote for, you're welcome to come to this church. If you vote for Trump to vote for Harris, you're welcome to come. I only ask you to do a few things and this is what I do at the board meetings as well. Number one, I ask that I, that you would, you would attempt as hard as you can to see Jesus, not see Jesus through your politics, to see your politics through the kingdom of God in sermon in the house. That's what Jesus says, that you would be humble, you would be curious about why those in our church will see something in a different manner than you do. And it's just naming, it's clarifying expectations. You know, in the emotionally healthy world and expectation is only valid and important topic when it's conscious, when it is spoken, when it's realistic, when it's breathed upon, when those four things happen, you have a valid expectation. And so I'm consistently clarifying expectations. To be on this board on this level of leadership requires such maturity, requires a level of growth of self awareness that if you're going to violate our values in this way, you don't have what it takes to be on the board. And that's, I don't probably say it as strong, maybe just a tad lower than that.
- [46:42]
Carrie Newhoff
But you're clear.
- [46:43]
Rich Velodas
But I'm clear. If we have a rule of life for elders that we are looking to, not perfectly, we're not going to do it perfectly, but we're going to wrestle with faithfully. But it's a consistent clarifying expectations. We don't do that here. And I think that's one of the ways. That doesn't mean that there's not legitimate expectations. Good conversation and people are passionate. We start talking about big issues, people are going to get passionate. But that doesn't mean you have to be demeaning, that doesn't mean you have to be dismissive, doesn't mean you can, you can be condescending. We don't, I don't want you to be robots, emotional robots here. And when you get that level of diversity, when you get Latinos and black folk that are just, you know, they're not going to go out, they got
- [47:24]
Carrie Newhoff
opinions, they got opinions and you're going to hear it. So how do you navigate that? Like on a border, at a staff level, you just let him speak freely.
- [47:32]
Rich Velodas
Yeah, I think, I think volume does not necessarily mean like damage or, and I think nor. This is why in a multicultural context there's so Many nuances to communication. Whereas people will. People will interpret someone speaking loudly as people being angry. Because if you, you know, people who are angry speak loud as opposed to. No, These are personalities and cultures at work. Now, Rosie ate on the Enneagram. Her thing is Lee, or get out of the way. That's my wife. I'm a seven on the Enneagram. Rosie is very strong. And when she processes, she processes passions. She's not. Not. No, no. Not with meanness in her bones here. But she's in a process. So we've had to, in a multicultural context, make space or process.
- [48:32]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [48:32]
Rich Velodas
And that process does not mean necessarily people are being dismissive or condescending. And Carrie, honestly, we've had to do a lot of checking, a lot of, hey, you said that. Are you upset with me with that there? And I. Can. I. Can I check an assumption with you? And we've had to exercise a lot of skills in a multi ethnic, multicultural context. It's a landmine by context.
- [48:58]
Carrie Newhoff
I mean, there are books about that for business people, about, hey, if you're doing business in Japan, doing business in China, doing business in India, Russia, wherever you happen to be, here's the cultural code.
- [49:08]
Rich Velodas
Yeah.
- [49:09]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, you must bow down or you don't. Or please address somebody by mister. But that's true. You know, I've heard of certain cultures. It's like, no, when we yell, that's our love link.
- [49:19]
Rich Velodas
Yes.
- [49:20]
Carrie Newhoff
Right. Like, that means I care about you.
- [49:21]
Rich Velodas
Yes. And being clear, like in. In our chant. You know, there's a guy I was working with recently, Filipino guy, and he, you know, in some, not all, in some Asian contexts, to be assertive, to make, to enter into a room, make space is very difficult. Just generally culture, it's more. They want to be invited in. And for him, I'm noticing he's not stepping in, in the way that he should be in terms of asserting himself in his area of expertise. This is his area of expertise. And he goes, oh, it's my. It's my. It's my Filipino thing that I just, I don't want to. I don't want to insert myself. And I have to tell him, I need you to insert yourself.
- [50:02]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, yeah, I.
- [50:03]
Rich Velodas
We need this prize. This project is going to go well. You better step in, because this is why we brought you here. But it's just the nuances, which is why to pastor in our context, it's taken me a number of years to be at ease in my role.
- [50:20]
Carrie Newhoff
And you're just like, they're Just being passionate. They're just being themselves. Yeah. So, I mean, getting a little more specific. You've had a lot of moments because you've been doing this for 14 years. So that would be what, since 2012? So you made it through Covid. More recently, Charlie Kirk. We had all, you know, George Floyd. We had all kinds of moments that were highly political, polarized. We're in a war as we record this right now. And most pastors are finding. Because people are discipled by the algorithm.
- [50:51]
Rich Velodas
Right.
- [50:51]
Carrie Newhoff
What their phones are telling in the content is more extreme the longer you're on it, because that's what gets attention and that's what makes the company's money. So, like, walk us through some examples. Just pick one of those or think of another one where. How do you pastor your congregation through a critical cultural moment where people were crazy.
- [51:15]
Rich Velodas
Yeah. At my best. And I think I've learned a lot of things here. I have recognized that anything I say that's going to be helpful for the community needs communalists. If I'm expecting to be Moses to come down from the mountain and say,
- [51:32]
Carrie Newhoff
thus says the Lord, sitting there at 7pm well, your phone all alone going, I'm going to straighten this out. No.
- [51:39]
Rich Velodas
And so typically what I do is I begin with the draft. I begin with, here are the things that I'm really thinking about.
- [51:45]
Carrie Newhoff
So not an immediate response. Almost never.
- [51:48]
Rich Velodas
No. No. You know, sometimes the craziness happens on a Friday. Carrie. I'm just like, can we. Can everything happen on Monday? Can we just have Monday madness? Put them back in the office. So I have six days to prepare for my response. I wish life is not as neat as that. So here's two things.
- [52:05]
Carrie Newhoff
One, I'm high even on social.
- [52:06]
Rich Velodas
Yeah, on. On social. But part of it for me is I'm a recognition of what is calling and what is context. I feel uniquely called that I'm in. But I think God has given me for task to offer a different vision of what it needs to follow Jesus. Yeah. And I want to be vocal about that, that there's. There's a different way of showing up in the world. And so I feel burdened to do this now. Even as on social media. I have a very clear person in mind on social media when I. When I post. And so you're.
- [52:47]
Carrie Newhoff
You're targeting someone. Indians, 100%.
- [52:51]
Rich Velodas
Okay. I'm targeting. I won't share their names, but I had two names of people. Oh.
- [52:55]
Carrie Newhoff
Like specifics. You see, not even a Persona.
- [52:57]
Rich Velodas
Yeah, but. And they represent number one People who have given up on the church and people who are not Christians.
- [53:06]
Carrie Newhoff
So you're posting not for your church, but for the people you have yet.
- [53:09]
Rich Velodas
That's my evangelistic kind of impulse that's in it. And so that means there are going to be a lot of people who don't like what I say, who are part of the church. And my response now, that means I'm going to lose followers all the time. I'm always losing followers. Engagement, yeah. On social media, no matter what I say. But I'm like, this is the. These are the folks that I feel primarily called on this level on social page. That's different in my church. So how I respond to our church and what do I say? Which is to say, I often think about pastoral prayers before pastoral statements. A lot of people are not looking necessarily for clarity, looking for empathy. And so if I can get up and say, hey, can we pray about what's happened in our world? I might not have all the answers. Or we can certainly pray. And it just buys me more time to think about what do I need to say. First of all, it's not just like the perfunctory thing. We're going to do it just to buy some more time here. We need to pray. And I think it's pastoral wisdom to say, I don't have all the details yet. I don't have all the data yet. Yeah, I'm learning about this geopolitical reality for the first time in my life. And now I'm supposed to be an expert on this thing here. It's not going to happen.
- [54:19]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, the other thing I think I've seen you do is there are moments where my feed is blowing up with people taking positions. And you'll show up on my feed because I follow you. And often it's delayed a little bit. It's not immediate, it's not in the moment. You're not first to the phone. But what I'll see you do sometime and tell me if it's just an outlier and it's not a pattern, you'll draw a quote from some sage from a thousand years ago or a hundred years ago or 10 years ago that just sort of speaks calm or a kingdom perspective to it. In other words, I'm commenting on this by not commenting on this, but telling you, reminding you of something we ought to eat. Is that true?
- [55:05]
Rich Velodas
Is that a pattern I've seen? Yeah, I'm looking for number one. I'm trying to name. What we're seeing here is not something unique to this moment. And people have said things about this. It's very easy to have a kind of a mindset about history that what's happening here right now is the worst it's ever been. And so for me, appealing to ancient wisdom and ancient history is a way of saying, we have been here at one point or another, and what can you learn from the past? I think at some level this is back to family systems where we can learn a lot from our histories as a people, as a community. But, yeah, I think that. And I'm trying to appeal fundamentally to a Christocentric view of the world. What does it mean to honor Jesus and to center Jesus in this response here? And it doesn't mean I don't take positions. I said a number of things with Charlie Kirk or George Floyd or whatever, what's happening in Iran, And I'm not trying to be wishy washy here. There's certain things I'm going to say. I think this needs to be said. But Carrie is my hope to remain connected. Yeah, that too. I want a distinction, but without disconnect. It's how I say that. I don't want to come across as, you know, condescending, condemning. And there are plenty of people who are out there. If you don't believe this, you're not even a Christian. I don't want to do that.
- [56:29]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah.
- [56:29]
Rich Velodas
But I don't want to not take a position, but I also want to. Rick and Swirls.
- [56:33]
Carrie Newhoff
All right, final question, because we're down to our last two minutes here on the live stream and on the pod. I would love to know, what are we misdiagnosing about this cultural moment? What? When we look back on 10 years from now, 15 years ago, and, like, didn't see it or I got it wrong, what do you think we're misdiagnosing?
- [56:52]
Rich Velodas
I. It. Okay. I'm reading a book right now called the Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire. Star Wars.
- [57:01]
Carrie Newhoff
I was gonna say Battlestar Galactica. No, Star Wars.
- [57:04]
Rich Velodas
And I have my Jedi hat on.
- [57:05]
Carrie Newhoff
Okay, there you go. So we're ready for that.
- [57:07]
Rich Velodas
It's a guy who has a PhD in World War I, and he's writing about what he's learned about World War I through the lens of Star Wars.
- [57:14]
Carrie Newhoff
Cool.
- [57:15]
Rich Velodas
And his. One of his big things is pal. We're gonna get really nerdy here. Palpatine, the emperor. A lot of the issues were focused on Palpatine, but not the larger sister. I think we're in an age right now about in the social Political moment where it's easy to focus on one person and not be overarching emotional and social system. And so it's easy to scapegoat and say the problem is right there. If you just get rid of that problem, we're all good as opposed to we all have what to do. Wow. Wow.
- [57:46]
Carrie Newhoff
This is so helpful, Rich. Thank you. You are a gift to me, a gift to the church. So people are going to want to hang out with you online. You're an easy follow on Instagram. But if you get a couple of resources that you would point us to, maybe a book you wrote. Yeah, a book that's been very influential to you. I would love that.
- [58:08]
Rich Velodas
All the stuff I talk about family systems. Peter Steinke's book, Upthrower, Highly recommend about the stuff we talked about today. My second book, good and beautiful and Kind, has a whole lot of work on the different solution, Calm presence. And then the narrow path, which is about the sermon of Annal, is how to what is about Jesus. Those are probably the two resources that I've written that I probably recommend.
- [58:28]
Carrie Newhoff
All right, one final word to church planters who are watching right now or people who are going to plant a church. What's one sage piece of advice you want me?
- [58:36]
Rich Velodas
It's something I say all the time. The greatest gift you give is your ongoing transformation. Jesus Christ. Well, and Carrie, let me say here, if I can give you a shout out. I don't listen to a lot of podcasts, but when you're. When it comes, when the notification, the Carrie Newhoff notification, which I still trouble to spell your name, the last name, is it the I or the E? What is it?
- [59:03]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah, it's I, E, U, W, H,
- [59:05]
Rich Velodas
O, L. But your podcast has been a great gift, so thank you for the good work. You.
- [59:09]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, thank you so much. And you're a great gift. Hey, thank you so much for tuning in to the Exponential live stream. Thank you so much for tuning into a special episode of the Carrie Newhoff Leadership podcast. Really appreciate you, Rich. Really appreciate all of you.
- [59:23]
Rich Velodas
Thanks, Carrie.
- [59:24]
Podcast Host
Hope you found that interesting. I sure did. And some real wisdom here. And the bottom line is, if you want a healthy culture, it's going to take some work. It's going to take you time to work through that with your team, with your board. If you want more about what Rich and I talked about, you can get everything in the show notes and you can find the show notes at the Art of Leadership Academy. Just go to theartofleadershipacademy.com, fill out a quick form. It'll get you in and you'll join over 20,000 leaders who are now part of the Academy. We only opened that up like a year ago. We've had so many of you move from the crowd to the core and I'm really grateful there. We have, guess what? Non Angry Conversations about really important issues. Would love to have you join us. There's a free level, absolutely free, and then also a premium tier where you're going to get all of my content, direct access to me, and a whole lot more. Coming up on the podcast we have got Dr. Nicole Martin, John Ortberg, Matt Chandler, Tyler Staton, Will Guidera, and a whole lot more. So the best way to make sure you never miss an episode is to hit follow or subscribe wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. Thank you so much for listening. I love getting your feedback. If this was helpful, share the link with a friend, leave a rating and review wherever you're watching or listening, or drop a comment. We love hearing from you. Thanks so much for listening and I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.