B (7:43)

This is incredible. I just love hearing of the background. So I had just been confirmed in high school, and it was the next year the catechism came out. And so you got to be in seminary when the catechism came out. I remember being so. Well, I was interested at that point. At that point I had already had a conversion toward the Lord. And I remember because it was such a big deal for me that the catechism was published because in your section or, you know, section on the sacraments on confirmation, and it labels the five effects of confirmation. And I remember thinking, I wish I would have known this before I got confirmed. But I know it now and I'm very grateful for that. But it's so clear. I love the fact that you are saying that as someone who has a doctorate, you use the catechism and as someone who's a bishop, that you use the catechism because think about all of the people who are going to be journeying with us and maybe with doctorates, maybe without them, maybe some bishops, maybe not, maybe some non bishops might be joining us. But this is for the faithful, I think. I remember hearing a story, maybe you heard this too. I think it was someone had written to Pope Benedict, or at least he got back some flack from maybe some German bishops who were saying, why would you use a catechism? No one's going to buy it. No one's going to read it at all. And then I think he. He writes this forward to one of the, like an ancillary supplementary book of the Catechism, saying Well, maybe no one's going to read it, but it's on the bestseller list, so. In multiple languages. But you were reading. You've been reading it for a long time.

A (9:11)

Yeah, I've been reading the catechism for a long time, and I actually use it. I keep it right by my little place where I pray every morning. And I don't read it every day, not even close to that. But I might actually start doing that when I. When the podcast starts, because I'm excited to follow along, and it's nice to have that ability to go through something just a little bit every day and really get the consistency down. But I think, you know, what happened when the catechism came out is people were surprised by the impact that it had. And, you know, I was surprised by the beauty of it.

B (9:45)

Right.

A (9:46)

You know, it's just such a beautifully put together document. And, you know, those very first paragraphs where it just talks about the kind of God that we have and how God loves us and how he's always drawing near to us, and then this whole understanding that everything that we have in the church flows from one source, which is the Trinity, and the whole kind of pedagogy of the catechism is just a beautifully put together document. And I still find, when I read actually helps my prayer. And it's an interesting thing because people think of dogma, or teaching, you know, Greek. The Greek word for teaching is dogma. They think of dogma as kind of like hard, cold facts, and nothing can be further from the truth. Actually, it's beautiful because it's telling us about infinite truth and infinite goodness and infinite beauty. And your prayer gets enriched by dogma and needs to be enriched by dogma, because dogma is actually putting you in direct contact with God, and that helps you to experience and know God. And you can't love what you don't know. And so it really actually is a document that can strengthen your relationship, not just your intellect, but your heart.

B (10:56)

Yeah. And that. I'm so glad you said that, because one of the goals behind this. So one of the goals behind the Bible in a year was to recapture a biblical worldview and to be able to say, okay, I Actually, one of the opening lines is like, to see life through the lens of Scripture, and that's what we mean by the biblical worldview. But as you're describing the catechism as well, you realize, like you said, you can't love what you don't know. And here is not just information, but it's an Invitation to transformation. It's not just here's data, but here's God himself and Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Three persons revealing himself and revealing ourselves to us through not just the sacred Scripture, but also through sacred tradition. And so I think one of the big questions people could have is what's the authority of sacred tradition? Or even when to say like this, like, what does Church authority mean? Because we're going to say, okay, this is what the Church teaches. You know, here's the catechism, what the Church teaches. What does. Yeah, what does that mean? Where does it come from?

A (11:57)

Yeah, so, you know, all the authority in the Church comes from Christ, and the Church gets her authority from the person of Jesus Christ. The Church is the body of Christ. The Church is the continuation of the presence of Christ in the world. And so all the authority of the Church comes from Christ. And really, the teaching authority of the Church is an attempt to be faithful to Christ's teaching and to his revelation. And when you begin to think about it, you know, Cardinal Newman, he has a wonderful way of speaking about the need for infallibility in the Church. Infallibility is a big word. And people are like, what is. You know, what does that mean? Who actually thinks that anyone's infallible? But we know that God is infallible, right? God is not capable of making an error because He's God, right? And so therefore Jesus is also, because he's God, he's infallible. He's incapable of making an error. And Jesus, he gives us a truth that is essential for salvation. And it's essential to know this truth in order to get to heaven. And it's the truth of His Word, it's the truth of his teaching, it's the truth of his moral life, all those things. Now, God would not give us a truth that we need to get to heaven and not also give us a way to keep that truth safe throughout all of time. And so that's why he gives us the authority of the Church. It's the Church's job to protect this truth of revelation, which is essential for salvation, because we know it's capable of being corrupted. When you look at the history of the world, sometimes that teaching can get corrupted and we could lose the saving teaching if we didn't have the infallibility of the Church. Now, the infallibility of the Church is, of course, the Holy Spirit. It's God himself, right? God who is leading the Church and guiding the Church. And of course, the catechism is beautiful about this because it Explains that there are different levels of authority. Not everything that a pope or a bishop or somebody like that says is infallible. That's for sure. Right. I'm wrong all the time. But when it comes to revelation, which is what God has revealed, which is necessary for salvation, God guarantees that that saving truth won't be lost throughout time. And he gives this authority, which is God's own authority to the Church. There's another aspect of it that's actually beautiful, which is, you know, because authority is not very well liked today, it's kind of a tough thing, right? We're taught to question authority. And you know, well, by what authority do you have to teach? You know, so we're taught to question it. But actually, authority is a great gift because it allows us to be obedient. And what is it that saved us? It was Jesus obedience. Right. By the obedience of one man. St. Paul says salvation was won by the disobedience of one man's salvation was lost Adam by the obedience of one of one man's salvation comes to us. And so the same thing has to come in the life of every Christian. I have to be obedient to the truth of who God is and his revelation. And so that obedience is what unites me to Jesus, obedience, which unites me to God himself.

B (15:20)

Wow. That is. I love that you're able to make the connection, not just make the leap. Right. It's not a leap. It is a direct connection between this recognition of we need authority in order to have obedience, because it is the love of God in Jesus Christ, obeying his Father, that brought about the salvation of the world. It is then our subsequent obedience that allows us to participate in that saving action and bring it, allow it to change our lives. And so we couldn't do that without authority. Wow, that's a. I'd never heard it articulated like that, Bishop. That's. I, I love that.

A (15:55)

St. Paul calls it the obedience of faith. Right?

B (15:58)

Yes.

A (15:58)

And so we know, for example, when the catechism makes this point in the creed, the creeds, they, they predates the Scriptures, right? They were, they were creeds that predated the Scriptures. And, and, and they're, they're, in that sense, they're summaries of what was revealed in the Scriptures. And so the obedience of faith is to say, yeah, I believe that what is revealed in this creed is true and that's what leads to salvation. So it's helpful to approach authority that way rather than, you know, the prove it to me mindset like No, I actually want to be set free in obedience and I want to know the truth rather than this needs to be proven so that I can before I accept it.

B (16:39)

That's fascinating. I like that distinction also between the here's an openness and just teach me versus the prove it to me. One of the things I found is that the scriptures themselves, they don't often make an argument. They simply just reveal that it's God's revelation of himself. He's not arguing for his existence, he's not arguing for his goodness. He's just revealing himself. And something similar is. I'll talk to some people who will say, well, you know, does the catechism, you know, offer a proof for X, Y or Z? And it's like, well, actually, the catechism just teaches. I mean, it gives a reason a lot of times for the teaching, but it's not trying to convince you of. I love that teach it to me versus prove it to me. And the catechism, it really almost. I don't want to say requires, but you can go a lot further in the catechism when you are saying teach me rather than prove it to me.

A (17:32)

Yeah. And when you understand that, you know, as Jesus says, it's the truth which sets us free. Right? And especially with the catechism, because one of the gifts of the catechism is we're dealing with it. You know, this catechism published in 1980, something. Right? 1988 or 89 is when it first comes out, the new catechism. And we're dealing with 1988. Years of experience, right? And this is, this is kind of the, the. The gift of, of the tradition of the Church, right, Is it's the wisdom of the saints. It's the wisdom of all the teachers that go before us. It's the wisdom of all of the ecumenical councils, right? The bishops of the world gathered together and they, they discussed and debated and decided things. And we bring that. It's like this long stream that begins with Jesus, and as it goes, it actually grows with all this incredible wisdom, still from the same source, you know, but it becomes more understood, more able to be received or another way. Sometimes the fathers of the Church talked about is a tree. You know, Jesus plants the seed, but then it grows and that tree begins to develop all these other branches that they were already present in the seed. But we can fully understand them now because of the beautiful teaching of St. Leo the Great in the. Of form, the 4th century, or St. Augustine, you know, or St. Thomas Aquinas these are some of the most brilliant wise persons in the history of the world. And they have enriched and strengthened this whole tradition, which now we get to receive in the catechism. And it's all summarized for you and ordered for you so you can receive, you know, tastes and parts of this whole tradition all the way along the way. One of the things people are surprised by the catechism is how much it quotes the saints. Oh, yeah, right. And not to mention, of course, scripture.

B (19:25)

So much scripture, so many saints. It, like you said, that's. It's the accumulation, not only here of the data of scripture, but also this resource of these people who lived it out and lived lives of discipleship, of holiness. And, like, their words have weight to them now because, like, they lived it, you know, they. They interiorized it. It actually transformed their lives. That's full.

A (19:48)

Yeah. We stand taller because we stand on their shoulders, as the famous saying is, right? And the beauty of the catechism, it kind of presents that all to you in such an easy way to grasp, you know.

B (19:59)

Well, you know, you are on the committee for evangelization and catechesis. So the catechism, obviously catechesis, but also evangelization. And what would you say is the connection, or maybe even the mission of. Between the catechism and evangelization? Or maybe there isn't one. Or is there one?

A (20:19)

No, they're essentially united. The purpose of the catechism is for evangelization because the purpose of the church is for evangelization. The reason we have a church is to share the saving love of Jesus Christ. The good news, right? The saving love of Jesus Christ, so that more people can come to experience salvation, the great gift of salvation. And the catechism is at the service of that mission. And so it's meant to be, in that sense, an evangelizing document, as everything we do in the church is meant to be evangelizing, that is, sharing the truth and the beauty and the goodness of our faith so that others might be saved. And so, in fact, this is one of the important things about the catechism, to understand it, that it's not just simply a kind of list of teachings, but it's alive. And the teaching of the church is alive because it's the teaching of Jesus, and Jesus is alive. And so it's a. In that sense, we speak about a living tradition, right, that we're all a part of and we're experiencing. And when we receive it, it creates new life in us, new insights, new ways to live the Gospel, it creates salvation in that sense because it's connected to divine revelation. Right. Which is the source of salvation. So in this sense it's meant to be an evangelizing document. It's also part of the reason that catechism uses saints and other people is because of the witness factor. Right, right. Because all evangelization comes from witness. And again, it's the beauty of the catechism. It's the witness of almost 2000 years that's coming to us now. The witness of all those who've lived the faith and the various aspects of the faith throughout these 2,000 years. So that becomes a very evangelizing thing for us. And people who study the catechism find their faith being increased.

B (22:11)

Well, that makes sense that the more like you mentioned before, how can you love what you don't know? And the more you come to know the Lord, the more you know you can trust Him. The more you know that well, the more you can have the capacity to love because you know what you're loving. But also, whenever it comes to like, faith and growth in faith, one of the things that I, I'm a simple guy in some ways. And when it comes down to like, there's so many incredible ways to try to communicate what is faith. And sometimes it just seems to me that faith isn't just, oh, I believe these propositions and it doesn't stop here. But I think there's a really incredible essential part of faith that is trust. That's the sense of it's relational, that I trust you because I know you. And there's that sense of with the Lord as well, where in some ways I have to approach him without skepticism, but with a disposition of trust. And I guess when we're approaching the catechism, there might be the temptation we already talked about, you know, teach me versus prove it to me, that skepticism versus okay, I'm going to trust here, I guess. I don't know how would you invite people to approach the catechism with that disposition of trust and openness?

A (23:26)

Yeah, you know, so faith. You're exactly right. It's always a relational act. Actually, I always have faith in a person, not faith in a thing. Right, right. So I often talk about like natural faith. When I come up to a four way stop and I'm stopped and the other car is coming, I go before that car stops because I basically have faith that the other guy's going to stop at that stop sign. Right. But I don't have faith.

B (23:50)

It's worked every time.

A (23:51)

Yeah. Almost. I don't have faith in the stop sign I got. I have faith in that person. It's a relational act, Right. And it's the same thing with every paragraph of the catechism. Why do I believe it? Because I have faith that Jesus is God and what God says is true, and that the church is the body of Christ and it's essentially connected to Jesus. And that the church, which is this community of believers that God founded, that Jesus Christ founded, and that he then founded so that we could carry his teaching and his saving mysteries throughout the time of the world, that she is a guardian of that truth. Right. And so I have faith in the person of Jesus and in the Holy Spirit guiding the church, which is why I believe all the paragraphs of the catechism. So you're right, though. It's always an act of trust in a person. Now, the beauty is, even if you're a doubter, and all of us struggle with doubts at certain times, and so it's okay to doubt, right? You can test it, and it works. In other words, it's proven truth, proven, not in the sense of provable, because we're talking about divine revelation, things that are beyond our own mind, but it's proven that it works. And you can read about the lives of the saints and look at the people who have tried to live this faith, and you see that it works. And it's the line from G.K. chesterton. Right? Christianity has never been tried and found wanting. It's been found too difficult and left untried. When you try it, you discover that it does actually help you understand the way the world is and the way your life is. And it. It also actually does also lead to fulfillment.

B (25:39)

Yeah, yeah, that is. And that. That requires a sense of trust first. Right. That sense of. I'm not just kind of testing it out, in that sense of, I'll dabble, I'll stick my toe in and see if I'm blessed or if I'm less blessed, as opposed to, okay, I'm just. I'm going to trust you and move forward and realize that sometimes, you know, sometimes we can only come to faith once we've started moving in that. In that sense, like, once I've started trusting, there's that element. I have just two quick last things, if you don't mind. One is, I mean, I know when we talk about the authority of the church and recognize that, okay, so here is. I trust in the church because I trust Jesus, and I know that Jesus has established his church and he's promised that he's given us all authority in heaven, on earth, to his church to guide into all truth. And yet one of the things people come back with is, well, yeah, but there's so much brokenness in the church. And look at history, and history demonstrates. You want to talk about proof? Well, history proves, and our current experience proves, right, that as you mentioned, the Holy Spirit is the soul of the Church. But also there's a bunch of broken people in it, too. How would we kind of reconcile that or what do we do with that?

A (26:52)

Yeah, one Catholic writer, he said, original sin is the only Catholic dogma we can prove. You don't have to go far to prove it. You just read the newspaper and you just look into your own heart. You can prove it. Right. We know that we're fallen, broken human beings. And that's the point. All of the brokenness of the Church can be accredited to fallen, broken human beings. And human beings have not lived up to the gospel that Jesus left us. And because of that brokenness, lots of damage has been done at different times in the world. But that's actually, oddly enough, it's a proof of. It's an evidence for why the Church can be trusted. Because despite all those errors and brokenness throughout 2000 years and all the ways that the leaders of the Church have often messed up and some of them done very sinful and terrible things, the fact is, the truth has been maintained. So there's the famous story of Napoleon when he had one of the cardinals of Rome in prison, and he said to the cardinal, he said, you know, we're going to destroy your church. And the cardinal said, you can't destroy the church. We priests have been trying to do it for, you know, 1500 years. We can't do it because the Holy Spirit's guiding the Church. She has continued to remain faithful and always will to the truths that God has revealed, even though there's a lot of brokenness and sin and will continue to be sadly in her members and even in her leaders sometimes. So it is important to make that distinction, right between the brokenness and the sinful actions of individuals and the teaching of the Church, which continues to come down to us through the ages.

B (28:36)

Well, and I'm glad you said that, too, because there's a sense of all of the things people point to and say. Here is the, you know, the. The reasons why you wouldn't be able to trust the Church all come from a failure of its members to live up to the teaching. Like every one of Those people we point to actually are, are failing to live up to the consistent and beautiful and entire teaching of the church. And so the teaching itself isn't wanting. It's the, it's us living up to that that is wanting. I think that's important, probably to keep in mind. One last question. Just, you know, as, as we conclude this, I know we're going to get to talk again before we introduce the second pillar in roughly a quarter of a year, give or take, however long that's going to be. But any, any kind of last words for the people listening to this podcast as they are getting geared up for January 1st, as they're getting ready to press play on day one. Any, any kind of last words that you'd like to kind of share with our listeners?

A (29:32)

You know, I would just say that if you spend time studying and reading the catechism, you're going to find practical help, deeper understanding, deeper inspiration, deeper love, incredibly interesting facts. You're going to find that what's rolled out before you is in fact the most beautiful thing in the world because it's actually a study of God. Right? All the catechism is a study of God himself and his revelation. And it all flows from God and leads back to God and the Trinity is the source of it all. And the more you study baptism, or the more you study the moral life, or you're actually seeing a part of the beauty of God and that's going to change your life. And it's a beautiful thing when it happens. And all of us, I discover it too. When I read the catechism. I discover something new that helps me understand more deeply who God is. And hopefully it will push you even deeper into your own study and relationship beyond. Because we will never tire of studying God.

B (30:47)

That is great. Yes. Practical help, deeper understanding, deeper love will never tire of having coming to a deeper understanding of God. I love that. Thank you, Bishop. Thank you so much for joining us today. A couple things for those listening to this podcast and getting ready to press play, if you are interested in getting your copy of the reading plan for the catechism year, you can visit ascensionpress.com ciy so ciy standing for catechism in a year. So ascensionpress.com ciy or if you want to get speed up the process, you can text the letters ciy to the number 33777. Very biblical, very Trinitarian, very Sabbath. So ciy to the number 33777. Also, you can subscribe already. You can already click on follow in your podcast app to make sure you don't miss any episodes. Maybe you can't find it, but it will find you, I promise you. But if you can track it down, you can subscribe or follow in your podcast app to receive daily updates and daily notifications. I'm going to say a quick prayer and then, yeah, we'll conclude this time. Father in heaven, we give you thanks and praise because you have revealed yourself to us. You have given us your son. You've given us your son who lived for us, who died for us, who rose from the dead for us, who sent the Holy Spirit with you, Father, to us and gave us your church. You established that body of Christ so that we could be led into all truth. We ask you to please continue to fill us with your Holy Spirit, continue to guide the church, continue to help us to overcome skepticism, to overcome discouragement, to overcome doubt, and to learn what it is to trust in you, to learn what it is to hope in you, and to learn what it is to allow ourselves to be loved and led by you. And thank you for this opportunity to talk with Bishop Cousins. Thank you for every person who's joining us in this on this these pre episodes as we begin to prepare our hearts and our minds to listen to the catechism in the air. We thank you for every one of them. Ask you, Father, to bless every one of them right now, in this moment. You know their needs. You love them in their need. Come to us all in this moment. We make this prayer in the mighty name of Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Bishop, once again, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today.

A (33:09)

Thank you, Father Mike. God bless you.

B (33:10)

You.