A (2:36)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (2:36)

I got prayer to receive the Holy Spirit. The Lord began to change my life radically. I started to learn what it means to be a disciple of Jesus, to live that on a daily basis. And I also took a course on scripture. It was a mini course with Father Francis Martin on the Gospel of Mark. And boom, it just exploded. Scripture for me. I fell in love with scripture. I decided eventually that's what I wanted to do with my life. In various ways, I had encountered the Lord. I had experienced the Lord on youth retreats and things. So I knew Jesus was real. I knew that if I wanted to be happy, I needed to be with him. I needed to be his disciple. And I wasn't really living that when I was in college at Notre Dame. So that's why I decided I have to go there, because I see Jesus alive in the kids on that campus, and I need that.

A (3:31)

That's amazing. So you had the Lord, but you realize there's more still.

B (3:34)

Yeah.

A (3:34)

Like you're. I'm part of the church, and I. I understand in some ways the articles of the faith, but there's still something even more. And, you know, it's interesting because one of the things that when we talk about morality, this third pillar of the catechism, this, you know, how we live, sometimes I think some people can see it as. It's the. It's the. Okay, now here's the guidelines. Or here is the. The. The guardrails. Here is the. For lack of a better. It's a. Here's the straitjacket. Here's what you can't do.

B (4:00)

Exactly.

A (4:00)

As opposed to. No, here's the power to actually live as a disciple. You mentioned happiness. Like, here's the power to actually choose God's will in such a way that actually leads to happiness rather than leads to our own suffocation or something like that.

B (4:14)

Right. You know, as. As I reread this part of the catechism to prepare for this, I was so struck by. By how beautiful it is.

A (4:21)

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

B (4:22)

How joyful it is. How God's whole plan is for our unimaginable happiness. Beyond anything we can think or ask. God wants us to be happy. And this is all about happiness. And it's so contrary to our normal way of thinking. We think of the Commandments as a straitjacket, like you said. But the Commandments, even for the understanding of Israel before the New Testament, the Commandments are a gift. They actually have a feast day still now called Simchat Torah, the joy of the law, the rejoicing in the law, like the law of God. God telling us how we can be fully who we are as he created us to be, how we can be fulfilled. It's sweeter than honey.

A (5:13)

Yeah. Well, even. Lord, how I love your law.

B (5:15)

Yeah, how I love your law. So I kind of. I got that again as I read this part of the catechism. This is such a gift from God.

A (5:24)

Well, as you said that, as you have some experience with. What would you say you reread this section as this isn't your first rodeo.

B (5:30)

Right.

A (5:31)

You spent some time in the catechism previously. What. Yeah. What has been your experience or involvement with catechism?

B (5:37)

Well, the funny thing is, you know, when I studied the theology for the first time at Steubenville, back when the dinosaurs were roaming the earth, you know, it seems like in the 80s, that was prior to the catechism.

A (5:48)

Right.

B (5:49)

And it's hard to imagine now how unclear things seemed to people back then. People had so many questions like, what does the Church actually teach about contraception or about this or that? And nobody had a clear answer. And different priests would say different things. And then when this came out in 1992, and then in English in 94, it was like the dawn was breaking. And all of a sudden there was clarity, and it was presented in such a beautifully systematic way. And people could go there and you could look in the index and you could say, oh, okay, this is what the Church teaches. And even if so. And so is saying something different, he's incorrect, because this is what the Church teaches. So it was really an experience of light. But I do remember at the time that there were a lot of theologians who complained that the catechism, for instance, didn't quote the latest theologians, the latest theological theories, some of which were kind of dissenting from the Church, that it only quoted saints. Like, why. Why are you only including quotes from saints in here? But of course, councils.

A (6:53)

And that's it. Yeah. As opposed to yet the most recent.

B (6:56)

Right. And. And the saints are the ones who. They're the best interpreters of the teaching of the Church because they're living it and they're showing how life giving and joyful it is. So I experienced that and then I had the privilege of meeting Cardinal Schinborn, who was the. As a young priest, he was the editor of the Catechism.

A (7:17)

Of the whole thing.

B (7:17)

Of the whole thing. He put the whole thing together. So when I was studying in Austria in the late 90s, he was the chancellor of the institute where I studied and got to meet him and he gave a talk on the Catechism and, and he explains something that really struck me, has struck me ever since he said the first two pillars, the Creed and the sacraments, they're about what God has done for us. The Creed is all about who God is and what it means that he sent his Son to die for us and he sent the Holy Spirit and then the sacraments, how God shares his own divine life with us, how he empowers us, how he fills us with the Holy Spirit. So it's all God's gift. The second two pillars are what we do in response. But it's structured that way for a reason. He said God's gift is always first.

A (8:10)

He initiates.

B (8:11)

God initiates. It's always his sheer goodness, his generosity poured out for us. And everything that we're called to do is in a thankful, loving response to that. It's not our effort, you know, that, that idea that, that is white knuckle Christianity, you know, it's all about me striving to be holy, striving to be a good Catholic. No, that has nothing to do with what the Lord is actually revealing to us through scripture and the catechism.

A (8:43)

And that's so fascinating too, because as we are talking about this, here's, you know, how we, how we live, what we do, morality, sometimes. That's, that's how, that's our experience of it. Is that white knuckle Christianity or our experiences is like, okay, I'm not sure, especially for people who have been going with us for 229 days. Here's day 230. It's like, okay, up to this point, I could just kind of, not just receive, but I kind of just can receive. Give me some information. But we've been talking about this ever since the very first day of the catechism has been, well, this, this is information, but it's more about transformation. It's about data, but really about conversion. And so as we launch into this third pillar, I would just ask what are some of the kind of the major themes or how can people prepare for this next step into the third pillar.

B (9:32)

Well, I would say this is where it really gets down to brass tacks. In the first two pillars, you could agree. You could say, I believe that. Okay? I'm a Catholic. I've been taught all that. I agree. But here it comes down to your daily choices, like, do I really believe what I say? I believe.

A (9:51)

Right.

B (9:51)

One of the tragedies of our time is that there are people who profess to be good Catholics, good Christians, who are acting in ways diametrically opposed to God's revelation and the teaching of the Church, which confuses so many people. But the reality is faith is faith lived. So here in. In this pillar of the catechism, people are going to be confronted with challenging questions and. And God's demand, what God demands of us. And, and that can cause us to bristle sometimes. And I would even say, if you're not being challenged by this part of the catechism, you're not getting it. You're not paying attention, you know, and you're not paying attention.

A (10:34)

So it's. So it's like, get yourself ready for the challenge.

B (10:37)

Yeah, get your.

A (10:37)

One of the things you're saying, get.

B (10:38)

Yourself ready for the challenge. Like, buckle up.

A (10:40)

Right?

B (10:41)

But a good challenge.

A (10:44)

How is this section or organized as far as, like, you know, I always picture someone who's just. Just listening. They don't have the. The book in front of them. Like, what might they. What's the lay of the land?

B (10:55)

Okay, the basic lay of the land is that the first section is our vocation, life in the Holy Spirit. So that kind of puts everything on the foundation of, you know, why are we called by God to live out these commandments, the Ten Commandments. That's the second section. The first section is what is our calling? Life in the Spirit. And what really struck me in that part is that everything that God asks us to do is given to us as a gift by his power in us. So, like, a lot of people think the Christian life is all about wwjd. You know that expression, right? What would Jesus do? So, you know, how can we look back at our. Our dearly departed founder of our religion and see how he modeled the ways to be kind to people? Love God, love your neighbor, all of that. Okay? All that's true. We want Jesus to be our model. But the Christian, that's not the full Christian life. It's not what would Jesus do, It's what is Jesus doing in me right now, right now? And what is Jesus asking of me now? And what he asks, he empowers.

A (12:12)

Right.

B (12:12)

He never gives us a commandment that he doesn't empower us by the Holy Spirit to carry out. And the more challenging it is for our flesh. And some of the commandments really, they cut against our flesh, they hurt, you.

A (12:28)

Know, not what I want to do.

B (12:29)

It's not what I want to do. But when we give God our little yes, our weak little hesitating little yes, he comes through. I've seen it in my own life in so many ways.

A (12:42)

Jesus didn't come to give us more rules to follow. He came to give us a new heart. And that, that new ethos that, that the ethos being that inner world that either attracts us to something or repels us from something. That, that the holy power of the Holy Spirit, this encounter with Jesus changes us internally so that, okay, I do want to do the Father's will. And the idea of saying no to God is it becomes more and more repellent.

B (13:05)

Yeah.

A (13:05)

And so not that it's automatically easy and that in concupiscence still, right. That distorted attraction to evil is still abides in our human hearts. But here's this grace. We're not, we're not left orphans and we're not left alone or powerless to be able to.

B (13:20)

An analogy that I like to use is if you think of a mother saying to her two year old, sammy, come here right now. And he has concupiscence. He has the flesh, he has disordered desire. So what's his immediate response? He runs in the other direction. Right. That's human beings under the old law, we don't like the law. It chafes against what we want. We want our will. Right. So we run in the other direction. Sometimes when God says, do this or don't do this, but then imagine the mom holds out a chocolate ice cream cone with colored sprinkles on the top and she says, sammy, come here. Before the words are even out of her mouth, he is coming in this direction. He is drawn from within. He is attracted to the good. That's the new heart that's living under the new law. And like you said, it's not like it happens automatically or easily right away, but we do have this new desire from the deepest part of our being to love God and do what he wills. That is a power greater than ourselves. And it becomes gradually a power greater than our earthly desires.

A (14:35)

And that sounds like something that, like, I think we, hopefully everyone who's gotten to day 2:30 right now is something that's what we want, like, I, I want that, but I know that as you mentioned, that there are some prickly or there's some thorny issues or just even, you know, we talked about this before, but like, there are some, There could be some stumbling blocks that people could encounter. And so if you have any thoughts on what could some of those stumbling blocks just kind of get them out there, we're going to name them. Of course, we're going to read the whole catechism, so it's not like we're going to skip over them, but like even launching into this next pillar, if we just name them, sometimes it can be helpful, you know, for people and what they expect.

B (15:12)

Yeah. I think the area is dealing with sexual morality, for example.

A (15:16)

Kind of like the elephant in the room.

B (15:18)

Yeah, yeah. Because what God reveals, what the gospel teaches, what Jesus teaches is so contrary to what the world is teaching right now. So that's a tough area for people because.

A (15:29)

Yeah. It's not only counter. The flesh, like inside of, but it's also countercultural.

B (15:33)

Yeah.

A (15:34)

That we don't live in a culture that when you, what you read in the catechism or in the scripture is.

B (15:40)

Going to be applauded and appealed, validated by the culture. Yeah.

A (15:45)

Quite the contrary. Yeah. And also sometimes even not just disdained or not just dismissed, but hated.

B (15:53)

Yeah. And good is called evil and evil is called good. Yeah. So when, when we get to those parts of the catechism, I think one really good thing to do is take time to look Jesus in the eyes in your prayer. Like the Samaritan woman. He had this incredible conversation with a Samaritan woman at a well in the Gospel of John, chapter four. And in the midst of the conversation, he basically rips open her heart. He says, you've had five husbands and now you're living with another guy who's not your husband. So she's got a history of brokenness, history of living outside of God's will. But she's looking into his eyes and she sees no condemnation. She sees fierce love. She sees a love from a man like she has never seen before. And she knows that she's known and understood in the very depths of her being. And it changes her whole heart. And it enables her to leave behind her whole life. It symbolized. But she leaves behind her water jug and she runs into the town and tells everybody about Jesus. She's a new woman. The shame on her face.

A (17:07)

The one who told me everything about myself.

B (17:09)

Yeah, yeah. And she can say that like she doesn't care Right.

A (17:12)

Because in the gaze of Jesus, there's no room for pride and there's no room for shame.

B (17:16)

That's right. And also to hear his voice. Listen for his voice. Because it's the voice of the good shepherd. It's the voice who calls you to greatness. It's the voice of a love who loves you exactly as you are, but too much to leave you there, who is calling you to be fully who you were created to be, calling you to become who he has made you to be. And it's a voice of love, of gentleness, of patience with your weaknesses, but a voice continually calling you on. So we have. We have to learn to be in silence sometimes and hear that voice. And it will change the way we approach God's commandments that we hear in this pillar of the catechism.

A (18:05)

That makes sense to hear the Lord's voice and to differentiate. I remember hearing people describe this, and it's born out, you know, I've been trying to communicate this too, is. And the Holy Spirit, or when the Lord's voice speaks to us, there can be a conviction. And that conviction is, here's where I've failed to live up to this. Here's why I've said no to the Lord. Here's. And so I'm guilty. But it's a conviction that leads to hope and conviction that leads to humility, conviction, at least to conversion, as opposed to the accuser who accuses us. And I feel awful. And I feel horrible. I can't believe I did that. I'm. Self condemnation. It's a conviction. Or sorry, it's an accusation that leads to condemnation.

B (18:43)

Yeah, exactly.

A (18:43)

And you can tell by the sound.

B (18:45)

So different. Yeah, they feel so different. I remember it took me a while. I mean, I still don't discern between them all the time, but yeah, the voice of the accuser always makes you feel terrible, makes you feel like a loser and leaves you there just accusing you. You're such a jerk. How come you couldn't do any better, you know? But the voice of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, it may convict. It may pierce to the heart. It cuts between soul and spirit, between bone and marrow, you know, But. But it never brings condemnation, it brings this freedom. If you're willing to say, okay, unless.

A (19:22)

You wanna run from it, in which.

B (19:23)

Case, if you wanna run from it. Yeah.

A (19:25)

Otherwise you have that double conviction of, I'm convicted in the area of sin, but I'm also convicted in the area of grace.

B (19:31)

Yeah.

A (19:31)

Convicted by the. At the very same level, sin And I'm convicted by the power and beauty of his love in the midst of that.

B (19:38)

Yeah, it's, it's paradoxical how it can happen in the very same moment.

A (19:42)

Are there any other things about some major themes or some things. Stumbling blocks or just things to pay attention to before we kind of talk more specifics about the first section and second section of this third pillar?

B (19:51)

I think one thing to pay attention to is what it says about conscience, because there's tremendous misunderstanding of conscience today.

A (19:59)

I think the theme today is misunderstanding.

B (20:02)

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's used to kind of excuse and cover up for basically ignoring parts of God's revelation.

A (20:12)

How would people do that? Or what have you seen?

B (20:15)

Well, I've seen people claim their conscience. I was acting according to my conscience. But what the catechism makes so clear is that we have a solemn obligation to form our conscience. And if we're acting according to a malformed conscience because we haven't taken the trouble to discover what God reveals, what the gospel teaches, what the church teaches, then we can still be culpable for doing something out of a malformed conscience. So conscience does not mean simply, I'll decide what I think is the best thing to do. For me, conscience is the voice of God in the depths of our hearts. And we have to be able to listen to the voice of God clearly. And to do that, that's why we need this. Right?

A (21:02)

Right. What you're saying, it reminds me of something. We've. It's come up a couple times in the catechism so far when those, there's those challenging areas where it's, okay, this reveals the degree to which I have the. Which. The degree to which I'm docile or that sense of openness to being taught. So I can, I can go through this. Well, take it or leave it. Here's some. I'll take this one. I like that one. Oh, that's really good. But the other thing, I don't want to do this. As opposed to that sense of, okay, Lord, guide me if this is your truth. Not if, since this is your truth, I need you to teach me. And so I think that is, as a disposition moving forward is going to be critical or else this is just going to be a really, really painful next however many hundred days or whatever.

B (21:46)

It is that's true. Yeah. We have to be like children of a heavenly father who trust him, he made us after all, and he knows what's for our happiness.

A (21:55)

So as we jump into this, that first section on. And how we. And how we live this, the high call, the life in the Spirit. Some of the things we're talking about is even just this integration of these first two pillars, the creed and the sacraments. And then now here's the moral life. And if you have any thoughts on that, what is the key for that integration?

B (22:18)

I would say the key is the Holy Spirit, who. The third person of the Trinity, given to us in baptism and in confirmation, and the whole of the Christian life is basically a life in partnership with the Holy Spirit, where the power comes from him. I mean, it was such a revolution in my life when I experienced that. When I basically handed over my life to Jesus, I basically said, I'm yours from now on. I get out of the driver's seat. I let you get in the driver's seat of my life, Fill me with your Holy Spirit. And from that point on, it's more like I'm going along for the ride.

A (23:00)

Yeah.

B (23:01)

It's not that I don't struggle. I mean, I still struggle just as much. But it's his power in me. It's not my power. It's the Holy Spirit in me, conforming me to Jesus by his power, which is unlimited.

A (23:18)

If someone's listening to this right now, and they're thinking, well, that's what I want, as we. As we tomorrow start reading from this third pillar, and that's what I want. How. How would they take that step again in the most simple of forms? Well, it sounds great, Dr. Healy, when you said it and you went to Steubenville, and so, of course, that happened there. Like, how do I do this? I'm just listening to this in my car or wherever I am right now. Is it possible to say fully yes to that? Surrender?

B (23:44)

Yeah, I would say pull it. Pull the car over if you can. Or at night, kneel before your bed and just say a very simple prayer, handing over your life to Jesus. I mean, a friend of mine did it in prison. He was in prison, and he basically came to a point where he said, lord, I've made a mess of my life. I've been in charge so far, and it has not gone very well. From now on, I put you in charge. His prayer was that simple. You can just say, lord, I give you all my flaws, my sins, my. My past, present, and future, all my gifts, my assets, my talents, everything. I write you a blank check, Jesus.

A (24:23)

So it's not complicated.

B (24:24)

It's not complicated. Just pray a prayer like that and. And. And. And keep at it. Don't just make it a one time event. Yeah.

A (24:31)

It's a, maybe a process or someone says, like, I've done this already, like, yeah, do it again.

B (24:35)

Yeah, do it again.

A (24:36)

Because we always want to take our. Here's God, here's my life. Take it back.

B (24:39)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I mean, do it and keep doing it.

A (24:42)

Yeah.

B (24:43)

I guarantee you will see the Lord act.

A (24:46)

Yeah.

B (24:46)

He will take that prayer very seriously.

A (24:48)

What would you say to people who are like, yeah, that's. I mean, I'm growing in that area, I'm taking more. I mean, here we are at day 230. So clearly someone has been, you know, who's been pressing play, has been wanting that to some degree. But what if someone were to like, you know, but that's really for someone else? The holiness isn't really.

B (25:03)

Yeah, it's for me.

A (25:04)

Yeah, exactly.

B (25:06)

I remember thinking that myself.

A (25:07)

Yeah.

B (25:07)

Yeah, it's definitely not for me. Well, I mean, it has struck me since then that the church gives us these saints as models. And the saints are so far from being cookie cutter, you know, just pious little platitude, kind of cardboard figures. They're so unique. I mean, if you look at some of the recent saints, like blessed Carlo Acutis, he's a computer whiz, a teenager. Computer whizz. Or Chiara Badano, she wanted to be a flight attendant. She too died as a teenager, but full of life as a teenager. And then there's Pier Giorgio Frassati, who was a mountain climber. And so many other saints who are so unique and so individual, like they're more fully alive than other people. So I think sometimes our reluctance comes from a false idea of what holiness is.

A (26:05)

That's a really good point. Yeah. And it's not perfection.

B (26:08)

No, it's not perfection. We're not going to reach perfection in this life.

A (26:11)

And it's also not, not struggling. It's not. Everything's together and you do everything perfectly or, you know, everything you touch turns to gold kind of situation.

B (26:18)

Not at all. But there's that. But it does become easier, right? It, you know, like, like learning a sport. You know, God gives us the virtues and, and as we practice them, it really does become more natural.

A (26:32)

Wow. The culture we're encountering has it, I think in some ways has a vastly different view, view of the human person than, than we have as Catholics. In fact, I remember, I think it's Dr. Peter Kreeft's summary of the catechism, where the chapter on this section was. I think it was something like human Nature as the foundation for morality or human dignity as it is human dignity as the foundation for morality. And so whenever I teach our college students this. It's okay. This is not just right or wrong, yes or no. This is. This comes out of our understanding of what it is to be human and what it is to have human dignity. Would you be able to just speak into that? How does our view of human dignity or human nature differ from, you know, the cultures where we're living?

B (27:15)

Absolutely. Yeah. As you're saying, it comes down to anthropology. What is our vision of the human person? And our vision, of course, comes from scripture. We are created in God's image and likeness, male and female. So there's something sacred about our being created male and female. And for most people, that means called to a spousal communion in marriage that reflects God in the world. God himself is a communion of persons, an eternal exchange of love. So who we are as in the image of God is. It's written into our very bodies as male and female. And Pope John Paul II has so many beautiful teachings on this in the theology of the body. But it's the exact contrary of what the world says, that basically the world's view is dualistic.

A (28:09)

Right.

B (28:10)

We are essentially a mind that happens to inhabit a body. The body is incidental to who we are.

A (28:18)

Yeah, incidental.

B (28:19)

I'll do what I want with my body. You know, my body, my choice. We have all these slogans. We can manipulate our body, you know, with a transhumanist agenda. We can make our body live forever. We can change the sex of our body. We can cut our body. You know, the culture has this tremendous demeaning of the human body because it sees the body as totally insignificant to who we are. And that's radically opposed to. To the biblical Christian vision, which is that we're body persons. My body is who I am, how I live in the body. It determines my character.

A (29:00)

Yeah.

B (29:00)

Even. Even for eternity. And so we have to treat the body with such respect that.

A (29:06)

That. That truth of you are your body. Therefore what you do with your body matters. And that just. Yeah, and that's. That's a, as you said, a radical difference than the culture, and that we don't have to go somewhere else to find a culture that is contrary or. Or disagrees or vehemently disagrees with what we believe. We.

B (29:24)

We're living in that right here in this post Christian.

A (29:26)

And so what people are going to experience as they go through this pillar is reiterating once again, again and again, we're coming out of the. Of the perspective or walking with. Looking through the lens that. Okay. Yeah. You are your body and therefore what you do. I mean, that's the whole section. Third pillar. Right. What we do, how we actually live it, it matters. And another vision of the human person is that we're. We're given a freedom.

B (29:52)

Yeah.

A (29:53)

And would you be able to. Would you like to talk about the role of human freedom when it comes to this?

B (29:59)

Yeah.

A (29:59)

Life.

B (30:01)

Well, without freedom, we wouldn't be human. We simply wouldn't be human.

A (30:04)

It would be the same thing.

B (30:05)

Yeah. God created us with this incredible gift of freedom because he didn't want robots. Yeah. He didn't want automatons. You know, just pets. Yeah. Who live purely by instinct. So we are actually given the incredible privilege of choosing the good. God. He tells us what is good. He tells us what is for our ultimate happiness. And he says, okay, now you choose it.

A (30:35)

You say. When you said the privilege of choosing the good, I was like. Internally, I'm like. And the burden, like, oh, gosh, okay, here it is. Here's the privilege. The honor. Yeah. The. The. The right that we can choose the good, but also the responsibility.

B (30:48)

Right.

A (30:48)

That.

B (30:49)

Right. You know, I just. A little story of. Of how choosing the good, even if it hurts, is for happiness. I remember this young couple who are friends of mine, when they were engaged, Will said to his fiance, he said, you know, I just want to tell you one thing. When we're married, we're going to live according to the church's teaching on contraception. We're not going to practice contraception. And she's like, what? Why? You know, because they were like regular Catholic couples. He said, well, you know, I don't. I don't really know. I don't really understand why the church teaches. I know the church teaches it, and I know I can trust God. I know I can trust Jesus. So we just need to do that. And she was like, okay. So fast forward about seven or eight years they've been married several. Seven or eight years, several kids practicing NFP, according to the church's teaching. And they're lying in bed one night and they start saying to each other, how come our friends are all struggling in their marriages? We know this couple over here who are getting divorced and this couple over here who are thinking of separating. This couple over here, they're really fighting with each other, and we're having a great time. We love each other. We're more intimate now than we were when we first got married. How come and then it suddenly dawned on them, maybe because we decided to do it God's way. And they were, they were so struck by that, and they decided to study it. They ended up studying theology of the body and learning even more the beauty of what God reveals about how we are to live. But they experienced in a very concrete.

A (32:24)

Way, even if they didn't know exactly why, there was a natural or supernatural fruit of just like, yeah, this is the joy of doing. No, I know other people could say, yeah, I've been trying to do God's, God's will, but they've been white knuckling this or not experiencing necessarily the joy. And they hopefully as we go through the catechism, they'll hear the why as well. So maybe that'll. It's complimentary in some ways because, yeah, that's the, the. This is ultimately oriented towards our ultimate happiness, but there is an element of the immediate happiness as well. I mean, it's not always right because it's not pleasure. But we're talking about the good in that sense of how do you create a, a great marriage? How do you create a great family? Well, I've started the basics. How about we, like you said, do it God's way? That might be the, the not. That doesn't automatically happen because it's just like if we follow nfp, you're automatically gonna have an amazing marriage. Well, it's NFP and the first commandment and the second commandment and the eighth commandment, you know, so it's not just observing six and nine, but also observing, you know, the other, the other eight, which is so important.

B (33:28)

Wow. Basically, I would think of it as three elements are absolutely crucial for living out this sometimes very challenging teaching. One, the mercy of God, the Father, who just continually invites us, like the Father of the Prodigal Son, just come into my embrace. Even if you blew it, just come to the sacrament of reconciliation. You will find forgiveness, you'll find mercy, you'll find inexhaustible love.

A (33:53)

The.

B (33:53)

So that's one. Secondly, the truth of Jesus, the truth that he revealed the truth of the human person, even his difficult demands, like, don't even look at another person lustfully, don't even harbor an angry thought at another person. So very, very high moral demands of Jesus. We need that too. We can't soft pedal them, we can't dilute them. But then third, the power of the Holy Spirit, like if, if we are really struggling to live out some of the, the Lord's moral teachings, which I, you know, we all do. Right?

A (34:28)

Yeah. Every one of us.

B (34:30)

We need more of the power of the Holy Spirit, so we need to ask for it. Sometimes we need to receive prayer from other people. We. We need to be honest with what we're struggling with and say, lord, I. You know, I'm doing the white knuckle thing.

A (34:44)

Right.

B (34:44)

And I really need more of your power in this area right now.

A (34:49)

The mercy of God the Father, the truth of Jesus, the Son of God, and the power of the Holy Spirit.

B (34:55)

Yeah, yeah.

A (34:56)

As we move forward. That's. That's awesome. The. There's a note that we wrote down that is oriented in this way that God loves us unconditionally. Even mentioned this before and still calls us to conversion.

B (35:10)

Right.

A (35:10)

Like you mentioned, he loves us as we are.

B (35:12)

Yeah.

A (35:12)

Doesn't hold back any of his love, but loves us too much to leave us there. To leave us there.

B (35:18)

Yeah. You could look at it this way. We're thirsty. We have desires that we want to be fulfilled. We have sexual desires. We have desires for esteem and approval, for identity. We have all these desires for greatness, for fame, for a name. God actually put these desires in us. They're actually fundamentally good. They're actually from God, but they've gotten twisted and distorted. And it's sort of like we see some salt water and we're super thirsty. I'm going to drink that salt water. God says, don't drink that salt water. No, I'm really thirsty. And that water looks good. I'm going to drink it. Don't drink that salt water.

A (35:56)

But if you only knew how thirsty I was. I know how thirsty are. Yeah.

B (36:00)

So we got to trust our heavenly Father to say, okay. He says, don't drink the salt water. It's going to kill you.

A (36:06)

Right.

B (36:07)

Okay. I'm not going to drink it. He says, let me give you a fountain of fresh water, bubbling, clear, overflowing water of life. That's why I told you to stay away from the salt water.

A (36:19)

Right. But for those of us who are so used to drinking from the salt.

B (36:28)

Water or the swamp water.

A (36:30)

The swamp water. Yeah, exactly. It's like that sense of, are you sure, though? But what do I have to do? All those kind of pieces, but the salt water is right here. The swamp water's right. Because sometimes the immediate benefit is lost on us. So there's that challenge of just, okay. You said trust, like, will you trust me? And that's why I just love how you highlighted the very, very beginning of this conversation, how faith is not just. I Assent or, I agree with the creed or with the sacraments. It has to be lived out.

B (37:02)

It has to be lived and in order to.

A (37:05)

And it creates a culture.

B (37:06)

Yes.

A (37:07)

So the next thing, before we move on to the next second section of the third pillar, is speaking of, like, culture. There, there's justice, there's social justice, and the Catechism talks about this. But if you wouldn't mind commenting, how is the Catholic Church's view of social justice and human solidarity different than maybe what we hear, generally speaking, in the culture when they talk about social justice? Is it. Is there a difference or is it kind of the same thing, or is it.

B (37:33)

Absolutely.

A (37:33)

Okay, big difference.

B (37:35)

Well, the Church's understanding of social justice is always founded on the dignity of the human person. And that's why you have that subsection first in this part of the Catechism on the dignity of the human person. And then comes community. So the world is always tempted to undervalue the dignity of the person. And in certain forms of social justice, it becomes the collective over the individual, like in Nazism or in communism. And so individual rights are trampled on to the point of even torture and murder huge populations of people. But then, on the other hand, the world's view of social justice can sometimes exalt the individual over the community.

A (38:22)

Like in the case of, like, say, like abortion.

B (38:26)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'll do whatever I want. There's no limit. There's no restraint on my freedom or say, you know, drag queen events that children are invited to, you know, who's going to tell me what to do or what not to do. So completely devaluing the common good that the world.

A (38:47)

Extremes of overriding or, if that's the right word, or trampling upon the. Or ignoring the individual dignity of the individual person is in favor of the collective, essentially. And at the same time, in other areas, exalting to such a degree that, you know, I need to be me.

B (39:04)

Yeah.

A (39:05)

You know.

B (39:05)

Yeah. And of course, the world's view ignores our supernatural destiny, right? The fact that we are not made for this world. We're not citizens of this world. We. We belong to another kingdom and our destiny is to be with God forever. This life is a preparation for it.

A (39:22)

Right.

B (39:23)

So any. Any view of a. A state or a community or an organization that radically discounts that is ultimately going to end up in some form of trampling on human rights.

A (39:38)

That just makes sense because then that becomes the idol, that becomes the goal is some utopia on earth. And, you know, however many, you know, eggs we have to crack to make this omelet. It doesn't matter, because that's. That's the goal. And I remember just that it might have been Peter Kreeft again or someone else who had reminded me, or maybe CS Lewis who just said, you know, that every civilization, every government, every movement, every educational system, every philosophy, all of them will end, but there's not one human being who has an end.

B (40:09)

That's right.

A (40:09)

That you will. Every human being will live forever.

B (40:12)

So isn't that a striking thought?

A (40:13)

You will outlast this country. You outlast anything we've built on this earth.

B (40:19)

Yeah. By far.

A (40:20)

And therefore of inestimable, inestimably more value than. Than the collective, than the, you know, the culture, than the government. And then the. Yeah. Wow.

B (40:31)

Every. Every single individual human person is the brother or sister for whom Christ died.

A (40:36)

Yes.

B (40:37)

The person who is worth the blood of the Son of God. It's impossible to exalt human dignity any higher than that.

A (40:45)

Yeah. The catechism does. He says there's not one, no one has, who has ever, ever lived, is living or ever will live, for whom Jesus Christ did not shed his blood or did not die for them. So that's. Yeah. The next question to consider is when it comes to the Ten Commandments. So the first section being life in the Spirit and the second life in Christ, and the second section being. Here's. Now let's get down to the original 10. The 10 Commandments. Yeah. Any. Any ways that you encourage people to launch into that second section when it comes to. Here's the Ten Commandments, you know them already, but like, we're going deeper.

B (41:19)

Yeah. Well, as you know, the first three commandments have to do with how we relate to God. Right. So how we fulfill what Jesus called the great commandment. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.

A (41:30)

Yeah. It's not just do what you want. It's.

B (41:32)

Yeah.

A (41:33)

We have to actually do some. Make it to some decisions to actually.

B (41:35)

It gets very concrete. And then the last seven commandments are about how we relate to human beings, how we fulfill the second commandment, love your neighbor as yourself. So in scripture, it says these commandments were written with the finger of God. It's not said about anything else in scripture. So therefore, they have a kind of supreme importance in terms of what God asks of us, what God calls us to, and therefore we should treat them very seriously. But at the same time, we should remember they set the floor, so to speak, for living the Christian life. They don't Set the ceiling.

A (42:13)

Right. Yeah.

B (42:14)

Like, you know, I didn't commit adultery. I didn't murder anybody. I'm doing okay. No, actually they are the beginning. And each commandment, if you fully unpack it, there's a lot more to it than just the simple statement, oh, my gosh, you shall not kill. You can kill somebody by destroying the reputation.

A (42:31)

Right.

B (42:32)

That. That can be tantamount to murder. So each of these commandments calls us higher, calls us to a way of radical self giving love.

A (42:43)

And that's. And that, as you said, this is the floor, the heights is love.

B (42:47)

Yeah.

A (42:47)

It's not just a matter of, okay, I avoided doing something wrong, but like, how do I actually live with the heart of God? How do I live with the heart of Christ? And so that, of course, the height's gonna be love, as you said. The second commandment is to love your neighbor as you, as you love yourself. But in this fallen world, it can be so dangerous to love others or even just difficult to love others. But we're still called to it. Do you have any, like, suggestions for people who are struggling to love? I mean, we're going to hear the fourth commandment about relationships with family members and relationship with other people around us, and then the rest of them too. But any, Any. Yeah, right.

B (43:25)

Family can be worse. Most difficult.

A (43:27)

Yeah. People you love the most or should love the most or can hurt us the most.

B (43:30)

Yeah. One thing that I found really helpful is ask God to give you his vision for the other person. You know, we have our vision that that person doesn't like me, or that that person is annoying, or that person is so arrogant, whatever it might be. Ask God for his vision. And you know, over time, keep asking. You may be surprised and amazed at what you begin to see.

A (43:57)

Yeah.

B (43:58)

Oh, she's really wounded. That's why she acts that way. Or, you know, he. He's got a hurt in his heart. That's why he's doing that. Or he's. He's called to be this kind of person. I see what God wants him to become. He's not there right now, but I know God is calling him to that. And once you start to get God's vision for the other person, it makes it so much easier to love them. Even when on a human level they can be really difficult to love.

A (44:28)

Wow. Yeah. That's it. That's. Gosh, I'm just processing this, taking it in, because that call is to love, to see like God sees, and then to love like God loves, as we're saying. That term love. What is, what is it to love? I mean, ultimately.

B (44:48)

Yeah, well, that's a word that's been mangled in our culture, hasn't it? Yes, totally redefined or even undefined. Undefined. Love is love, right?

A (44:57)

Yeah, exactly.

B (44:57)

Okay, what exactly do you mean by love? You know, often really the underlying definition is having sexual relations with. That's what love means. Or it means affirming whatever that person does, whatever choices they make, that's love. But that's not a biblical understanding of love. As St. Thomas Aquinas summed it up really simply, love is to will the good of the other. So love is in its nature self giving, it's self emptying, even. It's I desire what is truly good for that person. And in some cases that may not be what the other person thinks is good at the moment.

A (45:42)

They're actual good.

B (45:43)

Yeah, they're actual good. And I am willing even to pay a price sometimes. I mean, certainly that's true of a mother's love, father's love, of, of spousal love. And it is meant to be true of all love that I'm willing to, to pay a cost. Love can hurt sometimes. Mother Teresa taught that.

A (46:04)

Yeah, love until it hurts that, that those three elements of what love is to. Will like to actually choose the good. And again, not just what someone wants, but actually what is ultimately good for them of the other. Right. It's not even what's good for me. I said love is, is outward focus. My, my friend Nick, he says love is a one way street. He Sundays relationships are two way streets. But love is this one way street. Because I, if I love the. I'm willing the good of the other, that's what I do regardless, irrespective of what they do.

B (46:33)

That's true. Although it's of course meant to be reciprocated in that relationship.

A (46:38)

Yeah, but. Yeah, but we can only I can make the decision of what I do.

B (46:42)

That's right. Even if the other person is not loving me.

A (46:45)

Yeah.

B (46:45)

I can choose to love them. And that's even more godlike because that's what he does.

A (46:50)

Yeah. And so in the movie, keep saying that. How these commandments and even the commandment to love is meant, is oriented towards freedom. Even though it can feel restrictive. How, what's one way? As we move forward in this, we can change our, our, our vision of God's commandments from. Okay, this is, these are the limits to. Okay, this is the power, this is the movement. Yeah. I don't know how we Change that way. We're approaching as we kind of wrap this up soon.

B (47:21)

Well, the Lord one time gave me the analogy of surfing. It was actually in relation to the charisms, but it also applies to the moral life. And I had never surfed in my life, but I had this prayer time where the Lord was really speaking to me about surfing. Now you have to practice a lot to actually even get up on the board, to be able to stand up on the board. And you have to be willing to fall, but get up and keep doing it again. And then once you actually start to surf, you are being carried by this wave that is more powerful than you. You're not in control. The wave is in control and it's pushing you and the wind is pushing you. However, you're not passive. You are using all your energy to focus, to balance, to catch the wave at exactly the right moment to go with the wa. And when you finally get into it, it's what some of them call the green cathedral. When you're actually. The wave is over you and you are just going with the wave, and it's this sheer joy. That's what the moral life is meant to be.

A (48:32)

Meant to be. Yeah.

B (48:33)

The Holy Spirit is the wave. He's the wind that's moving you. You could say the. The surfboard is the commandments that are upholding you. You have to keep getting up on that board, but the Holy Spirit wants to be the power that's moving you. And as you. You keep on seeking to move with him, you. You get. You get into the flow and it becomes this life of joy because you're experiencing the Holy Spirit carry you along. You're experiencing what God intended for us as his children.

A (49:09)

It seems like if you extend the analogy the way a lot of us do, it is like trying to paddle out into the surf.

B (49:15)

Yeah.

A (49:16)

You're just going, working. You're working against the groove and saying, I'm surfing. Like, no, you're not surfing. You're paddling out.

B (49:21)

That's right.

A (49:21)

Catch a wave. But no, this is what the Christian life is. Right, Like.

B (49:24)

Well, exactly. I like that extension of the analogy. So many people think that the moral life is the paddling.

A (49:31)

Right.

B (49:32)

And the paddling can be very wearying.

A (49:33)

But it is like the Christian life. Again, it's that you said you have. Holding onto the. To the surfboard, the Ten Commandments, you. You are. Or the commandments of. The commandments of the Lord, what he's asked us to do. You're riding that wave. You also mentioned part of it is you're going to try and you're going to fall. How did. What would you say to people who are like, yeah, yeah, this is great. It's really nice that you're talking about this, but I just get so discouraged. I've been trying, but I've been falling. Or I've been trying, but it feels like I'm just paddling out into the. Into the surf and nothing's happening. That discouragement, I guess. What would you say about that piece of.

B (50:08)

Yeah, welcome to the club.

A (50:10)

Exactly. I know. It's like right here we have some cameras and there's lights and all these kind of things. And it's really easy to talk about the moral life. Like, good, because I'm not being tempted to do anything wrong right now. But then you step off the cameras and it's like, okay, well, now all.

B (50:22)

Of a sudden, the moment somebody cuts you off in traffic.

A (50:24)

Right, right. And any of those says a nasty comment opportunities.

B (50:27)

Yeah. All of a sudden, the flesh.

A (50:29)

Exactly.

B (50:30)

Yes. Well, I mean, I have certainly experienced that quite a bit in my life, that sense of discouragement. And I would say that the simple answer is, look into the eyes of Jesus again and stand up again. Let him take your hand. And he says, don't be discouraged. You know what? This is not news to me. You failed. It's actually not news to me, only to you. And it's actually good for your pride that you. You see that you cannot do this. Ultimately, the moral life is God calling us to the impossible.

A (51:08)

Right.

B (51:09)

But what is impossible for men is possible for God. So when we fall, we have to look into his eyes again and realize this is the Savior who loves to save.

A (51:21)

The Savior who loves to save. Yes. Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you, but we had to underline that one. The Savior who loves to save.

B (51:29)

Yeah. Not the Savior who looks at us and says, look, get your act together, shape up, and then I will come and bless you. No, he's the Savior who says, I love caring for my wounded sheep, my lost sheep, bringing them home on my shoulders. It's why I came. It's why I died for you. I need you to need me because I poured out my blood for you. So he's not discouraged. So we have to help get. We have to get his perspective and not be discouraged ourselves. Because every time we fall and then get up, it's a victory.

A (52:10)

Right.

B (52:10)

It's another victory for the kingdom.

A (52:13)

Even if you'd say, you know someone who's. Who's. Who goes through again, this, this pillar. And they're like, okay, some of these things, if I were to say yes to this, I would be saying yes to allowing a cross into my life, or I'd be saying yes to embracing a cross in my life. If I actually try or try again to live the way the Lord is calling me to live, inviting me to live. What you're saying is, I know I'm going to say, you're asking me to say us to a cross. And how do I prepare for that? How do I even wrap my mind or heart around that?

B (52:47)

Yeah, well, Jesus, he does say that whoever wants to follow me must deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.

A (52:55)

Part of the following after Jesus.

B (52:56)

Yeah, it is part of the Christian life. There is something painful about denying what the flesh wants. But what we often don't realize is that it's the way to joy. He asks us to pick up our cross because it's the way to the resurrection. It's the way to life. And the resurrection is not something that begins millennia down the road. When we get to heaven, it begins now. We are meant to live in a newness of life that is completely different from the BC life before Christ came into my life. We are meant to live a life that is completely different from the surrounding secular culture. And it's painful to take it up at the beginning. But gradually, over time, as we're carrying the cross, it becomes sweet, it becomes his easy yoke, his, his light burden. It's not that we don't still have crosses, but the joy outweighs the cross, the life, the fullness of life outweighs the sacrifices and the self denial.

A (54:07)

Yeah, well, that I would again was kind of maybe second to last thing. I can see how people, someone might say, yeah, I can do that for myself. But what I really hesitate is I, I don't want to tell other people to pick up their cross like I, I, I, maybe I could do this for me, but I've got these kids and I don't want to tell them that this is what they have to do too, or I've got these friends and I don't want to get in their lives. And, and what would you say to someone either if that's their struggle or if they just know that I'm going to be struggling with some of these teachings?

B (54:40)

Yeah.

A (54:40)

Any, any thoughts, even if it's not for themselves? I mean, it's like I struggle with these teachings for my friend.

B (54:45)

Yeah, right. Well, I would say we have to remember again the place of this pillar on the moral life, that living Christian life is the third place. So don't start out by telling somebody what they're doing wrong or how they need to get their act together. We need to bring people into an encounter with Jesus first. They need to know him first. They need to recognize his individual personal love for them. Then there is the call to repent, as Jesus himself preached repent and believe the good news. But it has to begin with that relationship with Him. Now, that being said, we also have to recognize we do nobody any favors by soft pedaling and diluting and downplaying what God reveals about how we are to live. And the, the area of sexual morality is probably the area where people are most tempted to do that, to kind of put it aside or be embarrassed about it or not want to talk about it because it's so contrary to the culture. But we actually are doing people know favors at all. If we are just kind of blessing the darkness that they are living in or the bondage that they are living in, it is our calling and our privilege to proclaim the full truth, the undiluted truth of the good news. And part of the good news is kind of the bad news. You're separated from God by your sins. That's part of the gospel. Your sins have separated you from God and if you don't repent, they'll separate you from God forever. But you're invited to communion with God. You're invited back into friendship with Him. And it's so simple. Just repent and believe. That's basically the heart of it.

A (56:45)

Yeah, like you say, you don't do anyone any favors. You don't do the person by telling them there's a. By not telling them there's a train coming while they're playing on the tracks. You're not helping someone like, well, they look like they're having fun right now. I don't want to impose my morality on them. Like, well, there's a train coming and, and we've been talking for a while, which is such a huge blessing. Kind of. Any last thoughts you might have said to say, okay, here Tomorrow on day 231, they're going to press play and we're going to dive into this third pillar, this invitation to respond to everything we've heard for 229 days. Tomorrow on day 231, any last thoughts of just kind of as people press play tomorrow and start on this part of the adventure?

B (57:28)

Yeah, I would say go all in for Jesus. Don't hold back Keep going. This is probably going to be the hardest part of the catechism for people because it gets down to concrete reality of our daily choices. Keep going. Don't be a half baked Christian. Don't be one of those people with one foot in the world and one foot in the kingdom. Be all in. Because it is a complete adventure. It is the best decision you could ever make to decide you are all in for Jesus and his kingdom. It will radically change your life over time. And it will give you the most amazing fulfillment beyond anything you could have expected or imagined. Go all in.

A (58:25)

That's so good. Thank you so much for that, St. Therese. What you say you cannot be half a saint. You must be a whole saint or no saints at all.

B (58:32)

Yeah, we're all called to be saints.

A (58:35)

Dr. Healy, thank you so much. Oh man. I am looking forward to listening to this conversation again too because I just so moved. As we always let everyone know who joins us. This is such an honor. Day 2:30 tomorrow. Press play and just go for the ride. Please know I am praying for you. Please pray for me. My name is Father Mike and I cannot wait to see you tomorrow. God bless.