← Everything Is Energy with Cathy Heller
Everything Is Energy with Cathy Heller
How To Break Free From Codependency And Stop Abandoning Yourself l Mark Groves
00:54:41
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- [00:00]
Mark Groves
That's what it means to be in integrity, is to live at your highest level of wisdom that's available to you at your highest level of knowledge. And it's, like, not easy, but it's freedom.
- [00:11]
Kathy Heller
Hey, guys, it's Kathy Heller. Welcome back to Everything Is Energy. If you spent your whole life being that person that everybody likes, you're always easy to be around. You are somebody that sometimes is people pleasing. This episode is something that you want to listen to. Mark Groves is one of the most honest voices. He is so kind. He is so authentic. He's so wise. And today we're gonna talk about codependency, and we're gonna talk about how we abandon ourselves after this conversation. You're gonna understand why sometimes you say yes when you mean no, and where you can actually show up and be the person that you came here to be. Take a listen.
- [00:50]
Alex
Mark, I'm so happy you're here. Welcome.
- [00:52]
Mark Groves
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
- [00:54]
Alex
Anyone who's ever seen anything of yours loves you.
- [00:59]
Mark Groves
Well, I have a couple inbox messages that might not. Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate that. I really do. Thank you.
- [01:06]
Alex
Part of it is that you embody love so well. You are so genuine and brave, and you have the conversations that we all really. We need to learn to have. So I'm so glad that you're here. You created this. I want to say, it's like a movement. Create the love. And it's working, Mark. It's working. You're helping a lot of people. So I think we should talk about how you became this human connection expert. Where does that story start for you?
- [01:39]
Mark Groves
You know, I think the origin of the business is probably different than the origin of the passion. The origin of the passion really came from, you know, my father. I'm really blessed to have been born into a family where my father was really the one that I talked to about my emotions and what I was going. Breakups, and we. We'd sit on the couches in our living room and sort of marinate in human behavior. And he was always really great to just sort of chew on things with. And that made me really curious. And when I was in university, I worked in sales, and when I was in sales, I was so fascinated in how to change human behavior, how to get someone to choose something. Why did I not get an extended warranty on that? I was basically working at the more car salesman y version of Best Buy. Best Buy actually ended up buying the company. It was called Future Shop, and I had to wear a Suit to work for the first part of it. So it was super funny, and it was really born from that. And then I worked in pharmaceutical sales, really did well at that. And I went through a breakup. And when I went through the breakup, I looked at my life and I thought, why am I so good at talking about everything but my feelings? Like, this isn't a skill set issue. There's something more going on there. And to be honest with you, up until that point, anything sort of relational, I'd sort of swept under the carpet, you know. And I remember thinking to myself, like, how did I get here? How did I get to this place where I feel like I've been making choices that aren't mine, living a life that's not mine. I'm living a life that's not really in alignment with my integrity. And I just asked myself, like, how did you get here? And my answer immediately was, you avoided every hard conversation. And I thought about that, like, the results I would now had in my life were the results of not turning bravely and courageously towards possible rejection, possible abandonment, possible loss, hurting other people, not realizing that you end up in the place you try to avoid. Anyways,
- [03:45]
Alex
of all of the hardest conversations, which one was the hardest one for you?
- [03:52]
Mark Groves
I'd say it's always the first. With that one, it was ending in engagement. And that was one of the hardest conversations I've ever had to have. Although I would say that what parallels the hardest conversation is also usually the reclamation of self. So even though it's hard, I'm actually building a path back to my soul. Back to alignment, back to integrity of living, you know, really my soul's purpose, living in this space of. Well, there's something juicy over here. Even though it's scary, it's juicy. And I don't know why I, you know, I think humans, and this was especially true for me, we wait till we have to do something. And I waited a lot of my life still sometimes to do till I have to have the conversation? And I started to really pivot. I would say years later, this wasn't. At 27. Everything just magically fell into place at 27. No, it's been a journey. And I've realized it's about choose to. It's like, choose to have the conversation. Oh, things are kind of off. What's alignment again? You know, and that was, you know, I think, with most of us. And, you know, I've been a long fan of your work too. And, you know, speaking to the idea that we become the teacher we needed. We just end up a chapter ahead, and then we teach about that chapter. And then that's why inevitably, I don't trust anyone who acts as if they're a finished product, because we never are. We're always the student. And I really feel like I just live out loud in a lot of ways.
- [05:17]
Alex
Yeah. I've done so much therapy and so many different kinds of things to heal. And I went to this place called On Site, and it's like a week of doing psychodrama. And on the first day, you're all together, 70 of you in a room. And they put these different stations around the room with. With different reasons. You might be a codependent. And they say, go to the station that most represents you. And are you the kind of person who has to make sure everyone in the room is okay? And I'm like, oh, I could go there, you know, are you the kind of person, you know, are you a people pleaser? Do you hide confrontation? By the end, I was like, oh, I need to be in all seven places. And I always thought I'm not codependent because codependent means I lean on people so much, where for me, I'm so afraid to receive and I don't lean on anyone. Oh, my God. I found out how codependent I am, how much I avoid conflict, how I've pretzeled myself, how terrifying it is to think that I might say something that somebody else might not like. And this mark is literally the point. It's sort of like you go to a massage therapist, you're like, that's it. That's the spot. That's the spot where everyone who's listening gets stuck in their life and in their business. As soon as they think that they may say something that someone else might not like, that might cause them shame, that might cause rejection. We will do anything to avoid that, and that sabotages us. Right? So how do we learn to approach that? And how do we learn to rewire the payoff of it so that we know, like you said, that's a point of self reclamation. That's. That's so exciting. How can we change that?
- [07:04]
Mark Groves
Well, I think it's recognizing one. Everybody is sort of in the. How do I maintain self worth by being loved by other people? I mean, think of essentially what we are taught, that if someone chooses you, then you're worthy of being chosen. There's this evidence, and we hear this because people say, why are you single? If you're single or if you're. And we have this hierarchy to relationship, too. If you're married, you're better than someone who's engaged, you're better than someone who's dating, you're better than someone who's single. And God forbid you're divorced, you're sort of put into this dark space below all of that, not even recognizing that we actually have a lot to learn from divorced people because they actually went against the system. And so no matter how we get to these places, what's fascinating is to look at how we also celebrate relationship longevity. We celebrate anniversaries. And so if you're together 70 years and you hate each other, you're still better than someone together anytime less than that. And what I found so fascinating about that is there's no conversation about achieving relational depth or deepening intimacy or navigating conflicts successfully. Because, you know, relationship longevity might be a measure of relational success, but it's certainly not the only one and certainly not the most accurate one. And so really recognizing one, that you've been socialized and cultured. And also if you're a woman, you've especially been socialized to be a people pleaser. But we've been socialized and cultured to be in relationship. And there's an evolutionary benefit to being in a relationship, you know, because people survived if they were in groups and all those types of things. So there's a very real biological fear of being rejected. You know, it's like if I speak my voice, I might get hurt, I might get kicked out of this tribe. I might. So on a biological level, authenticity, you know, people have two needs, authenticity and belonging. And when authenticity threatens belonging, belonging usually wins. And so there's this opportunity for us to recognize that if my version of myself that I create so that I maintain belonging, which is most. What most people do till they wake up and they say there's more to life, right? That question of, like, I feel like there's more to life, which I know you listening to this podcast, that's why you're listening to this podcast, because you're trying to find or you are on the journey or you're finding the thing, you're tweaking, the thing is that call, that feeling of recognizing that whoever I've pretzeled myself into being, as you said, I have lost myself. So if I'm doing that, so I belong to you, I belong to this group, I actually don't belong to me. So I end up in a state of external belonging, never actually belonging. And then there's this moment Where I wake up and I recognize that. And that was that moment for me, you know, when my engagement ended, was like, who am I? Below all of the charisma and the laughter and the, you know, the working out and all, whatever it was, frosted tips and puka shell necklace. You know, below all of that, it was like, who am I really? And so it's recognizing that what got you here was necessary because it's so easy to be like, so overwhelmed by the fact that we've pretzeled ourselves and been a people pleaser and abandoned our own passions to fit in to what society has taught us is the good life, the right life, the right job, the right relationship, the right way of you acting. And we have to mourn that. I mean, that is a death. That is a death of an adaptive strategy. And then there's this beautiful turning point where you build your first boundary. You have your first hard conversation and you realize that in doing it, you actually didn't lose you. You might lose the relationship. There's no guarantee that you won't, but you will start to feel what it means to be in your body and be in integrity with who you are. And to do that is the ultimate act of rebellion. It is the most courageous step is to say, I can no longer pretend and operate in this facade. And you know, I often think relationally, but I think this is true work. I mean, I left a job that was secure in all the things to pursue. This passion is that the conversation might fracture the relationship. Right? Whenever you bring truth forward, it might fracture the relationship, but it is liberating for both people, regardless of the other person's response. But it also can deepen the relationship because what we are afraid will break the relationship up is actually what makes the relationship more satisfying, more intimate, more I get to be witness more. And we take the thing that we said we can't talk about and we talk about it, you know, I mean,
- [11:44]
Alex
there's so much here and yes, and yes and yes, it's the thing that makes it so much better. And it also makes sense that it's so scary. But then we, like you said, realize if we don't do it, we haven't been belonging to ourselves, like you said. And I want to get to the other side of this in a minute, but I find that while we're still on this piece and the setting of the boundaries, the asking for what you need, peace, it is almost non existent from most women's lives that I know. And then what happens is a lot of self punishment and resentment and pain and escaping fantasies and all the rest. And there's just such a difficulty around that. Mark, in the work that you've done, does that come from the lack of feeling worthy or the lack of belief that someone can show up, or the lack of trust or the lack of modeling that this is possible, that you can set a boundary and stay in a relationship or ask for what you need inside of a relationship? It's fascinating how this is so widespread, the difficulty of this.
- [13:10]
Mark Groves
I mean, I think it's. Everything you said is a factor, you know, and it's this recognition that it could be the socialization, it could be that it's not modeled. It could be all of those things, and it could be for survival, right? Like it could have been. It was unsafe to speak your truth as a kid, and it could have been true in a relationship and recognizing and just sitting in that truth for a moment, you know, just sitting in it, because most of us want to leave it. And then I go buy something. I go back to a regular job, I go to dopamine hits on Instagram, Whatever it is that gets me away from that, that we come back to and we sit in and we say, I leave me to be with people because I'm afraid they will leave me. And, you know, this is courageous work. This isn't just start speaking your truth and lay a boundary. This is recognizing that when you do, you claim sovereignty over self. You stand in the power of who you are. And, you know, you could argue that really the world benefits when you're powerless, that systems stay in place when you stay in the 9 to 5 cog that you consume because you're sad, because you're not in your body. And so there's soul calls that say, hey, we're here whenever you're ready. And we sometimes answer them a little bit. But, you know, as. As we've all experienced, you get the little cosmic nudge, then you get the cosmic two by four, then you get the cosmic dump truck, and life will eventually try to keep inviting you into alignment. And it will do it subtly or will do it painfully. And that's the commitment I have to myself now, is that I will never leave me to be with anybody. My relationship with me is more important than anything. And this idea, because of course, the response to that when people are boundaryless or bulldoze boundaries is they say, that's selfish. And I'm like, listen, if I operate in a relationship with you and I respect your sovereignty, growth, passions, purpose, and you do that with me. There is no selfishness. It's only wins. I'm speaking hope into you, you're speaking hope into me. And together we're creating a relationship container just keeps expanding to hold both of us rather than staying in this small box that requires both of us to shrink and not live this, at least in this iteration, one lifetime that we're aware of whatever your belief system is, and it does not involve self abandonment anymore. And, you know, there's a lot of things that go into it, but the grief and pain and anger that we can feel from knowing all of that and sitting in it is actually the alchemical creation that says that creates the job, that creates the passion that feeds the voice. And, you know, so often we say, if I lay this boundary, it didn't work because I lost that relationship or they were upset. And I'm like, no, that's actually means the boundary works. And you don't speak to get a result. You speak to hear your voice. And that's why it's challenging, you know, so often I'll ask someone, what do you need? What do you want? And they say, I don't know. And I'm just. Just claim something. Just for once, claim something and then you'll know. Much like when you ask your partner, where do you want to go for dinner? And they say, I don't know. You're like, I don't know either. Pick something they'll tell you if they don't want to go there, you know, and it's the same idea. It's like, claim something so you can feel in your body whether it is actually a hell yes or a hell no.
- [16:41]
Alex
Yeah.
- [16:42]
Kathy Heller
Okay. I have a quick question for you. Have you ever felt like life was supposed to feel better than it is? I remember the day that I lost my second record deal and I just thought I've been shrinking myself, waiting for someone to get it, to see me, to choose me. Waiting for some permission to finally feel like I could fully live. Fully. And I know I'm not the only one who's ever felt like that. Maybe everything looks fine on paper sometimes, but there's this feeling that you're stuck, that something's flat, and that you're settling for a version of your life when you know you could be living a much bigger version. And that's why I created porn for this for eight days. I want to help you reconnect to the life that actually feels magnetic. We're going to talk about manifestation intuition. We're going to talk about what are the energetic shifts that you can make so that you stop resisting all the things that you came here to experience. Because you weren't born to just get through the days. You were born to be fully, fully alive. Fully you fully sharing your gifts, fully thriving, fully prosperous. So we start June 8th. Check out the link in the show notes.
- [17:53]
Alex
It's so liberating, and it really is the sexiest thing in the world. When someone has a self. It's like, how are you gonna be with someone when they're not a someone? Because they're worrying about trying to be who you want them to be. There's. There's nobody to bounce off of. And you're right, though. The instinct is to be like, oh, that's so selfish. And really, you know, I had this meal at my house before COVID We used to love hosting dinner parties. That's like my favorite way to hang out. And so we bring people together. And I'll never forget this. We put together like, there was six couples. And, you know, we typically. We have dinner with couples, and it's. It's lovely. And for some reason, somebody at the table. There's a piece of artwork on my wall that Sundays, all because two people fell in love and worked super, super hard to stay that way. That's like, on my dining room wall. So she says, oh, I love that. I said, oh, well, we've been like so up and down, and we've been through therapy, and the work doesn't end, but we're constantly trying to get better at it. And with saying that, she says to me, this woman, everyone's listening. Gosh, I've never heard someone just publicly say that you guys work on things. And I'm like, really? Like, okay. To which her husband then says, you know, I've known you guys a while, and I've never shared this. I just feel like sharing with you. I'm a heroin addict. Now. This is a guy who is the father of one of my kids friends who I've known never came up, to which they start talking about in the most honest, real, exciting, genuine way what they've had to do to deal with this in their marriage. To which the couple to my right, who I've known for seven years, says, the husband says, I'm a meth addict. We've lived four blocks away. Our kids are all in the same school. We've never discussed this. I never would have said it. Your courage just led me to say it. Well, Mark, we wound up having the best dinner. We've ever had.
- [20:04]
Mark Groves
I bet.
- [20:05]
Alex
And I thought to myself, this is the best, you know, people being willing to say, here's where I struggle. Here's where I look for love. Here's where I abandoned myself. I turn around, look at these couples, and I'm thinking, gosh, they're really doing some cool stuff, honestly. Not to say I'm glorifying it. I can't even imagine, honestly, what it really is like for each of them in that couple. But I can tell you that everybody left and said, individually, texted me later, I've never had a meal like that. Thank you for making that space. And I thought, yeah, I'll never forget that, because it hasn't really happened before since. Why? Because of shame. And it always comes back to this, right? Like, what's the thing that ultimately robs us of our joy? Not accepting the parts of ourselves that we might have to be honest with, with our partners, with ourselves. Because why there's shame around that. That's the part of us we don't want people to know about. How do we let go of the shame so that we can show up so we can have a self?
- [21:22]
Mark Groves
What a beautiful question and what a beautiful story, you know, what you just shared is that real humans all sitting together, being real. And, you know, ultimately, if we are boundaryless or we're misrepresenting who we are for whatever reason in relationship, pretending we're the one, no big deal, everything's cool, whatever it might be, we're actually not in a relationship with the other person. We're not. We're not present because our representative is always there. So we're always on. And we never actually just get to take the deep exhale that you're talking about. That is this finally imperfection, finally. Because that's really what people witness in others, is the permission to be themselves. Because you put the dirty stuff on a painting on a wall, which is amazing, and it's not even dirty because it's real. And that's why everyone else goes, no more Instagram filters. This is who I am. And ultimately, that's what people connect to in business. You know, I'd say that a large reason of that I found any success, which I'm so grateful for, is because I just tell what is true for me. And I if you don't like it, I might be hurt that you didn't like it, but I still won't stop telling the truth. And that's healing from individual codependency, which is, you know, people pleasing and all the Things or even under functioning and being an addict or whatever, it might be that when I finally heal that I start to deal with collective codependency. So, you know, what a group thinks of me, what Instagram thinks of me, what a stranger on Twitter thinks of me, which can I still be me at the cost of a person who hides behind a computer screen? Yes. So getting back to shame, which is really ultimately what that's about is, you know, how do you heal it? Well, I got to go into it. So most of the stuff that we're ashamed of, we take and put in a little box and hide it in a corner. And we don't know the sacredness of what is actually in that pain because we haven't gone into the experience or the choice or whatever. It might be not enoughness. It could be a choice I made, it could be anything. I have to go into that, and maybe I need to be guided into it, but either way, I got to go into it and I got to find what's beautiful in it, what is the wisdom that's innate in the experience. And the question to ask, you know, I did this, and this is topical to this is I did this. One of the most powerful meditations I've ever done. I just had this idea because I remember doing this group therapy thing where I had to sit in front of a group and share what I was most ashamed about when I was single and when I found my affirmation through the pursuit of one night stands and all the things. And I sat and I faced five women, which was crazy. And I just shared everything I was sorry about, you know, and what was so powerful about the moment is one, I got to exile that shame. And I got to just not using words to be slick, using women for arousal, you know, that kind of thing. And. And things that humans do when they're not paying attention and when they're, you know, whatever. And anyways, we had this powerful experience and the women all sat there both like, needing to hear things like that. And what was so transformative of it is I then did this meditation the next morning, and I felt a younger version of me re enter my body and like, sit down with me in the meditation. And I had this sort of weird. It was in Hawaii, you know, weird stuff happens there. And I'm like. And I had this idea. I was like, what happens if I wrote out on a list everything I was ashamed of, every choice I made, everything I said or didn't say. So I wrote out on a list and then I wrote out what age I was when that happened. And what we do, which is what we do with people till we don't, is that we exile them. When people make mistakes, we kick them out of our community if they're divorced or they had sex before marriage or whatever it is, you know, so it's easy to use church as an example, because it often does that. And I know there's beautiful aspects to Christianity and all the things. So not saying there isn't. And there's also some toxics, too. So I'm sitting there and I'm like, what happens if I welcomed these younger versions of me home and I asked them what they could teach me? So then I sat down in a meditation and I just imagined. I read the thing again. Then I just imagined all these younger versions of me coming. And it was kind of like Lord of the Rings. They were sort of coming out of the trees. And then I. Just one by one. There was no specific age that it wasn't chronological. It just happened to be what it happened to be. And I just asked, what could you teach me? How would I grow? Who would I be if I. If I integrated? What you could share. And, you know, I could sort of get goosebumps thinking about it, because I welcomed home the parts of me that I exiled. And we exiled them because we only exile them based on the principles that we were taught and why we were afraid of being exiled. So we basically do to ourselves what we are afraid people will do to us and why we hide it. So to bring, you know, how do we alchemize the shame into expansion? It's by saying, what would I learn through that? How could I have grown? How could I have been better? What could I have changed if I was to honor that moment? Who would I be now? And then you must become it, because your integrity has now been presented, because that's what it means. To be an integrity is to live at your highest level of wisdom that's available to you, at your highest level of knowledge. And it's, like, not easy, but it's freedom. That's what freedom is. Freedom is saying the thing that you knew you should have said six months ago and learn because you got an experience. And then the next time you're presented with a circumstance that's similar, you do it differently. And that's how you change patterns, right? Choices. You change choices, it changes patterns.
- [27:09]
Alex
It's honestly one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. And I really hope that everyone listening. I wish that we could like pause and make sure no one's driving and actually have you do that because it's so powerful. And I've done so many of these week long retreats and eight week classes and therapy, whatever. But at this one I was mentioning before the very last day, the therapist had me go meet my 7 year old self and somebody played her in the room and she had me walk over and hand her all these pillows for every single thing I carried at that age and until now, my parents, infidelity, the secrets they told me, my mom's suicidal moments, like all these things. And she had me walk over to my 7 year old self and say, you don't have to live there anymore and I'm going to come and get you now, I'm coming to get you. She told me to tell her and I sobbed so hard, I bet, so hard. And the girl who played me, this girl Alex, she stood up, we hugged, she was sobbing and she got as much out of it as I did. Because anyone who hears that, if you were to experience that and put yourself in that moment and go back and like you said, Mark, go back to the. You added something which is what do you have to teach me? We are so wired to achieve and to do and to be quote unquote productive, that we do the least productive thing, which is never stop to heal or surrender the things that keep us imprisoned day after day after day.
- [28:57]
Mark Groves
Amen.
- [28:58]
Alex
And that is the work that you've chosen to do is to help people make space for that. The way you just described that. It's so beautiful. I'm amazed almost that you've become so popular in the sense that it's so what people need that. I often find that people go towards what they want and not what they need. And yet somehow you found a way to speak this into the world with such a gentleness. And you do have charisma, but there's such a genuineness that people were able to hear it and do the work. When you set out on this journey, did you get that feedback right away? What was the first thing that broke that you could tell, okay, they're hearing this message and they need, they need this.
- [29:55]
Mark Groves
Well, I remember the first time I did a future self meditation where in the future self I'm hanging with, I think it was like my 45 year old self, I'm about to be, be him in three years. And I remember at the end of the meditation he handed me a box and then I opened up the box and in the box was a video Camera. And at the time I was writing blogs, I just started writing and I wrote an article that was called why you might not be ready for the men you say you want. At the time, I said, evolve, man, because, you know, that was the lingo. I'd never say that now because it feels so righteous. That's called change. People don't cancel people for what they used to write. That's called growth and learning. Just a little note. And the article went viral. And in the article, it was essentially saying, like, I was writing to myself really, too. And I was saying, like, I've avoided this because I might actually be mad. I might actually have to face my match. I might not be the one in the emotional driver's seat. I might have to receive love. And I remember writing that and it doing well and that being sort of an affirmation like, okay, I'm, like, on the right path and etc. Etc. But I avoided doing video for so long. I was so afraid to do video. And in a way, I think I knew that. Like, I knew video was more the path for me and writing was safer, and it certainly served its purpose up until this moment. But when I started doing video, that's when I was just. You know, I had people constantly say, like, I feel like I'm learning about the things I'm ashamed of. And in a way, I feel permission to. To feel them and to know that everyone, you know, has relational challenges. And great relationships are not just something that fall on our feet, you know, that. That we have to create them, that we have to choose behaviors that we can learn, that it's a skill set. And also we'd laugh a lot, you know, and so I'd get told a lot of, like, I feel like I'm laughing my way through my expansion, that. That you turn what is heavy and make it something. I can sort of find the joy in it, too. And I sort of look at life, and I think, what is the point if we can't laugh at the ridiculousness of relationships and failures and hurt and pain? And so, yeah, I think the first time I probably got that was when I hosted a conference for three years. And in that conference, I was emceeing and gave talks. And so that was the first time I really started to claim the speaking aspect of it. I spoke a little bit. But when I really started to do video, it's interesting to look back. It's. Listening to your podcast. I know how often even hearing, like, what is my next level? Like, what is the next Thing that terrifies me, I know that I always need to go to that edge, because at that edge is how I love better, how I communicate better. And that's why your work is so imperative, too, because it's like, if you touch the edge, maybe through work, maybe through passion, you'll be on the edge in every area of your life. And if you touch it through relationship and you start to feel fulfillment and authenticity or whatever it might be, boundaries and sovereignty and whatever opinions again, that all of a sudden you're like, well, I can't turn down the volume over here. I got to turn it up, too, because I recognize you can't be at 80% in one area of your life and all of a sudden feel the juice in the other. No, you can't compartmentalize life. That's why there's no such thing as work, life, balance. There's just life and what you throw in the middle of it, you know?
- [33:29]
Alex
Yeah. And it's so true. How you do one thing is how you do everything.
- [33:32]
Mark Groves
Right.
- [33:33]
Alex
It just is what it is. You know, they say, like, you can learn so much from a sage, a holy person, just watching them eat a bowl of rice. Right. Because it's like, how you do one thing is how you do it all. So you did go on to speak quite a bit, and I love how often you're on video, on Instagram and throughout all aspects of your platform. And then you started this podcast. Tell us a little bit about the podcast and what conversations are you hoping to have on that podcast that you've been having, and what are you hoping those conversations help listeners with?
- [34:08]
Mark Groves
Well, I just had you on my podcast, so they can check that one out. Yeah, I mean, why I started the podcast was because I was having all these conversations with brilliant people. I kept getting asked, why didn't you start a podcast? Why didn't you start a podcast? And I was like, why am I not recording these anyways? Because I'm learning so much from talking to these incredible human beings. And so if I'm learning, someone else can learn from this, too. And so I started it. It's really like, where else would we get access to some of the world's best people in. In relating? And when I say relating, I mean you are in relationship with anything that's not you, and that's people and experiences and fears. You're in relationship with everything. And so I really speak from that lens is, you know, I talk about our relationship to death, our relationship to money, our relationship to other, our relationship to family boundaries, codependency. I mean there's the juice is all over there, you know, so I. You might go to it if you want to have better relationships. And. And you also might find yourself starting a new business because you listen to Kathy, you know, so that's why I created it.
- [35:16]
Alex
Yeah. And the conversations that you have never disappoint in terms of being just, you use the word before, juicy and substance full. And it's so refreshing because there's a lot of filler out there. But you don't do anything like that. You're never scripted. It's all like in this moment, two people having real conversations. What is it do you think is the biggest way in which we sabotage ourselves? And what might be one little tip before we come to the event on how to end it.
- [35:45]
Mark Groves
Gosh, we self sabotage ourselves whenever we don't tell the truth, you know, and we don't allow ourselves to achieve things. You know, I think so much of our sabotage is actually not letting ourselves experience joy. Experience. Yeah, actually getting somewhere. And I think we're so afraid of actually not feeling unworthy. And like, what would it be like if I actually loved my life? What would it be like if I could tell the truth in my relationships? And it's so foreign to us because we inherited that it's normal to not love your life, that it's normal to not have a joyous, fulfilling relationship or job. And so I think it's just when we don't tell the truth. So I mean, one of the ways out of it is to tell the truth and, you know, also be able to stand in it. And that's where boundaries come in. And you know, self abandonment and self sabotage are the ways we hit these upper limits of I know that pain is on the other side of receiving love. So what I'll do is I'll leave relationships before they get there, or I'll choose unavailable people, or I'll cheat on people, or I'll just become someone that people won't want to be in love with or be in relationship with. And that way, what I'm doing, and we do this in work too, is I'm creating this safe space even though it hurts, it's familiar and it's safe. And not knowing that what I'm avoiding, that pain that's on the other side, the rejection, abandonment, whatever it might be that I experienced when I was young, that in avoiding it, what I'm not seeing is the wisdom that lives in the experience that's says how I Never get there again. And that's why that integration of asking, what can it teach you? Is actually the way to blast through the upper limit to actually get the thing.
- [37:30]
Alex
It's so incredible. And I remember early on, my husband and I were dating, and we went to the Hotel Bel Air for a night. And it's over the top, incredibly special place. And it was a birthday. And he didn't just get me, like, a thing. He wrote, like, a note for 50 reasons why he sees me. And then we went in this pool and had dinner, and then I went and took a shower. And when I was in the shower, I was sobbing. The shower was so amazing, and the day was so amazing. And the amount of shame I felt, how unworthy I felt to be receiving of all that I was sobbing in the shower. Like, this is so hard. This is so painful. Oh, my God. If he only knew how I want to, like, sabotage everything right now. Like, this just feels so vulnerable, so scary, so scary. So scary. I'll never forget that shower. I was like, I can't. I'm overly. It's too much. It's a full experience of feeling, like, loved and I don't deserve it. And what do I have to do now to earn this? And what if I don't live up to. And, oh, my God, and I'm overweight and why do whatever. It was like, all the things I don't want to know about or feel about myself were so magnified. And it's like, if I can just not receive. I don't have to feel this feeling. And I'll never forget how hard and excruciating it was like, for what? It's like, well, who am I to deserve this? This feels so, so hard. And like you said, it's like we just. That question you just asked, like, what if I actually let myself love my life? What if I actually. It's just when nobody slows down enough to ask these questions, I want to ask you about what you said right before that, which was telling the truth, right? I said, how do you end self, Savage? Telling the truth. When I talk to people and they tell me all the things, all the feels, and then I say, what do you want? I don't know, Kath. I don't know. And then I say, okay, what about this? What about this? What about this? I don't know. I don't have an answer. I'm not getting an answer. What do we do when we're so used to being away from our truth that when we go to Ask ourselves, well, what color do you like? Well, what job do you think you want? Well, what food do you like to eat? What would you want to do all day long if you had a free day? I don't know. How do we come back? Because it's there, right? We're here. We're a conscious, sentient something on this planet. How do we get back to the answer so we can tell the truth?
- [40:12]
Mark Groves
You know, I think there's two ways. One is to find moments of flow. So things like surfing, hiking, returning to nature, going on hikes, sitting by trees, water, being in group, as you were talking about, like dinners with people we love, going on walks, runs, whatever it might be, getting back in touch with, being present. Leave your phone at home or put it on airplane mode and just allow yourself to be in moments where your body. How you might define a moment of flow would be where an hour goes by and it feels like five minutes. So it could be you're sewing, you're doing something when you're in that space. In the research, it's shown that in flow states, our prefrontal cortex shuts down, which is where we create the self. So the self is in here, it's shut down, which means. And it's also, if you think about it, if you're telling the truth, the prefrontal cortex is not on because it's not building a mask of self. So you're just in the moment and that's where you meet yourself, you know, and. And I think the other side. And meditation is a great pathway to that. If you're really like, meditation is hard, then you should definitely do meditation. And a good way to start is a guided meditation, like inside Timer or whatever it might be. And Sarah Blondin is a great. Oh, my God. Her voice is just straight soul. If you want one specific one I love is return to the sacred or make it sacred. That's what it's called. And it is. And the other thing I would say is when I hear people say, I don't know, it's usually because their lives and their childhoods were centered around other people's needs. And so maybe you had a parent who was angry or an addict or someone with a chronic illness, or your parent wasn't even around. And what happens is we learn to become needless and want less because it's survival. Our survival is purely about other people. And that's how we sort of self identify. And so you could think like, what really is going on there is. We've never really asked that question before because no one would listen. So there's something really important about just knowing that and then just going into that, because in that is a 7 year old or a 4 year old or a 12 year old or a 2 year old who actually does have needs, who actually does have wants, and they've just never had someone sit down. And often we pursue relationship hoping someone will be the first person to ask. But what we're really doing is subcontracting our healing to another human and will repeat relational patterns that will be dysfunctional because of it. And so really the invitation is to sit with self and to. And to start to explore the grief around not having anyone to hear that and be the person who does, who just maybe sits through the storm. You know, you talked about that shower that you experienced. I've certainly had similar experiences where I hadn't really just surrendered into receiving love since I'd been hurt. And there is this, you know, Francis Weller, who's a psychotherapist and calls himself a soul activist. He's incredible. And he says to let it cook you. Like let those moments cook you. Let them evolve you, let them grow you. And you know, we are such a light, focused culture goes, you know, to the light, go to the positive. But there's so much that is in the residue. You know, he says that the soul dwells on the edges and it in some way wants you to taste. That's where you taste the sacred. And I really agree with that. And so I think your needs and your wants will become familiar to you. When you become familiar to you.
- [44:00]
Alex
It's so beautiful. This is one of my favorite conversations ever. And the last thing I just want to end on because you just touched on it. And I do think it's something that everyone I know, myself included tends to do, which is, you said, hope that this other person will come and ask that question. Hoping that we will find the savior in somebody along the way who's gonna rescue us from our pattern or care enough that they get us out of the way in which we abandon ourselves. And that's why so often you have drinks with your girlfriends or you, or hanging out with the guys or whatever group you're in. You're at a Mommy and Me, you're at a book study, whatever you're doing. And people start complaining about people in their life, right? They're judging their mother, they're judging their spouse, they're judging this person, they're judging their neighbor. And then you listen to someone like Byron, Katie, who we've had here. And she's like, great, so substitute yourself for all those people that are doing this thing.
- [45:05]
Mark Groves
Byron brings the fire.
- [45:07]
Alex
She brings the fire. And then you go, oh, oh, I see. What a cool distraction. What a cool way for me to escape from what's actually happening between me and myself. To make it like, if he just would do that better. If she just would finally apologize or stop talking about herself or whatever it is. How, Mark, do we surrender that so that we can spend the energy where it actually belongs?
- [45:39]
Mark Groves
Well, one is the hope that we can get someone else to do anything, which is really a form of avoiding us doing something. You know, it's like when we're trying to heal an addict, our addiction is trying to heal the addict, you know, but no one got sober from other people saying, keep doing what you're doing. Nope, you know, and that's true of any change, you know, and that might be trying to get our partner to read a book or listen to a podcast episode that we just happen to have on when we get in the car. Which, don't get me wrong, that might work, but not when it comes from a coercive, manipulative perspective. Because again, it's still the energetic where you are leaving you to try to get someone else to change. And really, inspiration is born from self transformation, you know, and so I, as you said, if you can stop all that stuff, if you can notice when you're criticizing your aunt or whoever it is for their choices, that you can begin to go within and do an accurate audit of who you actually are and the choices you actually make. Because I remember hearing someone say to me, whatever you judge in another is a part you haven't accepted in yourself yet. And I remember hearing that and being like, that's notable because I didn't like that I would judge, you know, let's say guys with frosted tips. Because I didn't like the younger version of me when I had frosted tips. I was ashamed of him sometimes. And so once I started to do that invitation back of self, I no longer wanted. I no longer have a desire to judge or speak poorly of another, because I know that it's just me that that's that connection to other. That oneness is you. You know, even I've seen the most toxic behaviors, and I still have compassion where they come from. I just don't tolerate it, you know, and that's. We often confuse compassion with tolerance. Very often codependent people confuse those things. But I have so much compassion for where anyone's challenges or trauma has shaped them. And so I think it really is that. Can you go within always? Can you go within always? And if you can go within and you can find a space of peace and calm and home, you will not judge other people. You won't. You'll have compassionate space for them, and you'll have badass boundaries because your home will matter to you.
- [48:00]
Alex
And this couldn't be more important anytime, but especially now, just as we're wrapping up. There's just so much divisiveness and judgment in our world now. I mean, the amount of time we spend concerned with other people and what they're doing and what they're not doing. And instead, if we did this work, learn to tell the truth, learn to look at ourselves, learn to reclaim how to actually love ourselves, let go of our shame. Gosh, I mean, what a better use of energy. And then we wouldn't have to spend hours watching either doing a part of it or watching people just railing against each other when all we want is belonging. All we really want is, like, we want to connect, and it's such a distraction and it's not helping at all. So I just so appreciate you doing the work that you do, because this is really all we should be talking about until this world learns to heal and have compassion, radical empathy for themselves and other people, period.
- [49:06]
Mark Groves
I agree. We should all be fighting to be radical centrists in a way. And what I mean by that is we all have to become a bridge between the extremes, because what you're speaking to, that's happening in our external world in en masse, right. Is this inability to sit in conflicting thoughts, conflicting truths, and in some way thinking that my truth negates your truth. Which is really fascinating because what that shows you relationally is that anyone who lives in those extremes, they won't have healthy relationships because they won't be able to know that a healthy container and a container just being any space that lives between a group of people or two people has space for multiple truths, because that's how capital T truth is found. Is that what I believe is my truth and what I believe is my. What my partner believes is her truth, somewhere in the space between those two things is actually the bridge that unifies us. And if we don't know how to sit in the spaces of. Like, I'm a Christian who makes poor choices sometimes. If I can't sit in the space of that, then I will exile anyone who makes poor choices because I can't actually hold it Myself. And that's why that personal work, as you're saying, is. It's the work because we are all paradoxes. We are all imperfect. We've all made poor choices, and we will want to exile and cancel anyone who we don't know how to forgive. You know, some aspect of that within ourselves, 100%.
- [50:40]
Alex
And it's amazing how, you know, hate and disdain has never really come up with any solution. Love seems to point towards a lot more solutions. But the work you're doing helps us actually grasp what love is. And it's fascinating to me to sum this up, that I only recently learned that love is unconditional. Literally. Like, if it's anything other than given to you unconditionally, it is not love. It is earned. And when you cancel anyone for anything, and I'm even afraid to use the word cancel because that's now plated with once, and I don't even mean it that way. But when you reject outright a person completely, whatever you want to call that, then what? Then we love those who we love for the reasons that we love them, which we love for a reason, not for no reason. So we don't. Than love. We have people who earn certain ways in which we feel about them or people who don't. So then when do we practice love? When do we get to practice saying, here's a gift, I love you, here's a gift, there it is. I don't care. And it's all good, right? That's the work. Well, we can only do that when we've learned to do that with ourselves. So it's like, invite all parts of yourself to the table and say, welcome to tea. Part of me that's terrified. Part of me that's brave. Part of me that's welcome. You're here. You're welcome. And you know, you and I don't have it all figured out, and neither does anyone else. And, you know, together we can find ways to move through this with kindness. But your conversation today is just exquisite, and I thank you so much for having the courage to do the work you do and having the, gosh, such intuitive wisdom to put these words together and hold space that people can actually drop in. Thank you so much for everything you've been doing.
- [52:39]
Mark Groves
Thank you so much for having me. And I receive your words with grace. Thank you for trusting me with you, the listener. I really appreciate it.
- [52:50]
Alex
Tell us where we can find the podcast and the workshop, and then we'll put everything also in the show notes.
- [52:55]
Mark Groves
Yeah. So you can find the podcast. It's the Mark Groves podcast. Um, I'm not a narcissist. It just was the simplest way to change subjects and I. You can go to createthelove.com and the workshop will be posted there. Any courses? I do. And, oh, and I forgot create the love on Instagram and Facebook. Create the love wherever.
- [53:13]
Alex
So, yeah, Mark, thank you so much. This is awesome.
- [53:16]
Mark Groves
Thanks for having me.
- [53:18]
Kathy Heller
How amazing is Mark? All right, let's get into the takeaways. Number one, having the hard conversations leads to the reclamation of your true self. You're going to start to be in alignment with your integrity and who you are. That's the most courageous act of rebellion. Number two, you don't speak to get a result. You speak to hear your own voice. To claim something you can feel in your body, whether it's a hell yes or a hell no. 3, get into your shame instead of hiding in the corner. We don't know the sacredness of what's in the pain unless we go into the experience. Number four, welcome home the younger version of yourself and ask, what can they teach you? Live in the highest level of wisdom available to you. It's not easy, but it's freedom. Number five, always strive to meet your edge. That edge is how you love better and show up more fully. Number six, explore the grief for your younger self. Be the person who sits through the storm. Let those moments evolve you. If today's show sparks something for you, please take a moment and subscribe. Follow, Leave a quick review we appreciate it so much. It's really the best way to help this show get to other people who might really need to hear it. And lastly, before you go, if there's anything in today's conversation that landed for you, I want you to know that we can take this even deeper. Come join my eight day experience. It's called Born for this. It's happening next week. Starting Monday, June 8th. You're going to reconnect yourself in the most beautiful way. You're going to learn how to receive what has been always trying to find you. We start Monday, June 8th. The link is in the show notes and I can't wait to see you there.