How to Embrace the “Messy Middle” & Break Through Your Plateaus

Summary

Podcast Summary: Everything Is Energy with Cathy Heller

Episode: How to Embrace the “Messy Middle” & Break Through Your Plateaus
Air Date: March 16, 2026
Host: Cathy Heller
Guests: Gemma (Muse Yourself podcast), Keena, Charlotte, Brooke

---

Episode Overview

This powerful episode is centered around the spiritual journey of embracing the “messy middle”—the uncertain, unpolished period between where you are and where you want to be. Cathy and her co-coaches guide listeners and hot seat participants through struggles with grief, visibility, fear, and the courage required to step into leadership and growth before things feel “perfect.” Drawing on Jewish spirituality and Kabbalistic wisdom, the conversations highlight how our willingness to show up authentically and move with—rather than against—our own process expands our vessel to receive divine miracles, clarity, and abundance.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Faith as a Frequency of Miracles (00:59–04:50)

• Certainty and Faith:
  • Cathy defines faith as “a frequency of miracles...the vibration of certainty” (01:04).
  • She draws an analogy: when you order at a restaurant, you don’t doubt your food will arrive; you relax in certainty. This is the energetic state necessary for desire to manifest.
  • “When we keep checking or worrying or grasping for proof, we move into doubt and we disconnect from the energy. When we move into certainty, something mystical happens.” – Cathy (02:06)
• Spiritual Timing:
  • The episode aligns with Aries/Nisan energy—freedom, breakthroughs, and opening impossible doors (03:55).

2. Embracing the Messy Middle—Coaching with Gemma (05:59–35:27)

• Gemma’s Struggle:
  • Gemma shares about her podcast Muse Yourself, spawned from profound personal loss. Despite a clear vision for evolving it into a “global platform for powerful female storytelling,” she feels stuck, believing she can’t share her journey until it’s processed and neatly packaged.
  • “How do I do that? Yeah, it’s okay to share it when you’re just building and you’re in the mess and you don’t have all the answers yet.” – Gemma (09:44)
• Authenticity, Connection, and Leading from Incompleteness:
  • Brooke reframes the struggle: “It’s not look at me. It’s come with me. No one has all the answers. Everyone is a becoming.” (10:37)
  • The most magnetic leaders invite people along in real time.
  • “Connection is the thing that’s missing from most of what’s happening in the world. What moves us isn’t that someone gives us an answer, but that they make space.” – Brooke (12:16)
• Grief Is Not Linear:
  • Charlotte, who has both lived experience and professional expertise around grief, reminds: “It’s really about bouncing between all seven [stages]. In one minute, Gemma, it’s this feeling of, oh, I feel a sense of acceptance. And now I’m really angry again.” (18:44)
• Permission to Stay in the Process:
  • The importance of not rushing through or hiding grief; resisting the urge to “wrap it all up.”
  • “Who is anyone to tell you where you should be in this process?” – Charlotte (20:27)
• Breakthrough Through Vulnerability:
  • Sharing your story, unprocessed, isn’t exploitation. It gives others permission to exist in their own authenticity.
  • “You are helping everyone unwrap their boxes.” – Charlotte (31:49)
  • Memorable Quote:
    • “The all of you is welcome here is a revolution. And so that messy is the blessing.” – Brooke (30:50)
• Visibility and Next Steps:
  • Gemma shares she recorded her first video episode as a direct result of permission and encouragement received (33:23).
  • The call ends with talk of manifesting big opportunities and community support—“We were conspiring together in the quantum field.” – Gemma (35:14)

3. Fear & Power—Coaching with Keena (39:33–55:43)

• Keena’s Dilemma:
  • Keena is certified in neuroepigenetic breathing, has a new offer to launch, but is held back by fear of rejection and the discomfort of receiving money.
  • “It is so powerful, the transformation I can create... It’s the fear of my own power.” – Keena (41:13–41:32)
• The Internal Push-Pull:
  • Charlotte explains: “It’s so normal to have these two conflicting parts of gas, go. Hang on. Nervous system dysregulated—put the brakes on.” (42:24)
  • The exercise is to let the “rejected” part and the “powerful” part understand one another.
• Spiritual Lens—You Are the Vessel:
  • Brooke reframes visibility and lived power:
    • “You’re not making yourself visible. You’re a pointer towards the divine. What’s interesting about a faucet isn’t the faucet; it’s the water coming through.” (43:36)
    • “When the instrument of you is working, you become a vessel for energy that is divinely aligned and infinite.” (45:13)
  • Letting go of ego means letting the divine move through you; the pressure is not “on you.”
• The Only Thing to Do:
  • “You could never do this. Your ego in front of her ego...none of it’s real. What’s real is that somewhere inside of Julie Andrews...was the godliness in her.” – Brooke, referencing a coaching call with musician Christina Perry (47:16)
• The True Reward:
  • What we get credit for is not performance but allowing ourselves to be a vessel for something greater.
• Cultural Models:
  • Discussion of artists and leaders (Coldplay, JFK) who shift the focus to “us-ness”—sustainable creative energy and leadership comes from serving the collective.

4. Integration and Final Takeaways (56:44–End)

• Key Takeaways (as summarized by Cathy):
  1. “It’s not look at me, it’s come with me. No one has all the answers. Everyone is becoming. Walking each other home.”
  2. “All blessings and miracles are already fulfilled... [It’s about] widening your capacity to receive.”
  3. “Invite all your feelings to the table. This is the medicine.”
  4. “The greatest high is equanimity—‘I can be with everything as if all is in divine order.’ Mess is part of the blessing.”
  5. “God is the oneness in everything. There’s an aspect of the Creator in all of us.”
  6. “The divine is in you, and it’s always there. We get credit for letting ourselves be a vessel.”
  7. “The magic is putting everything in its place. Now you can move, be visible, be powerful, make money—always about something bigger than us.”
• Invitation to Community:
  • Listeners are encouraged to join Cathy’s Business Class inner circle for similar coaching and support.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments by Timestamps

• Faith Is a Frequency:
  • “Faith is a frequency of miracles. It’s the vibration of certainty...Faith is not passive. Faith is a frequency.” – Cathy Heller (01:04–03:08)
• The Antidote to Isolation:
  • “I don’t know what the answer is, but I feel that same way. You’re not alone.” – Brooke (14:50)
• Messy Middle as a Gift:
  • “When you make space for yourself and your own becoming, that’s a revolution.” – Brooke (12:16)
  • “The all of you is welcome here is a revolution. And so that messy is the blessing.” – Brooke (30:50)
• The Power of Grief:
  • “After a year... [they said] she should have moved on by now...Who is anyone to tell you where you should be in this process?” – Charlotte (20:20)
• You Are a Vessel:
  • “You’re not making yourself visible. You’re a pointer towards the divine.” – Brooke (43:36)
  • “What’s interesting about a faucet isn’t the faucet; it’s the water coming through the faucet.” – Brooke (44:00)
• Healing Through Feeling:
  • “If we all lent into our feelings and allowed them all to be there, we would feel so much more at peace. What we resist persists.” – Charlotte (37:44)

---

Important Segments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------------|------------------------------------------------------| | 00:59 – 04:50 | Cathy’s “Faith is a Frequency” & Aries/Nisan energy | | 05:59 – 35:27 | Coaching with Gemma—messy middle, grief, visibility | | 17:47 – 23:39 | Charlotte on non-linear grief & the power of story | | 33:23 – 35:14 | Gemma’s breakthrough—moving to video, manifestations| | 39:33 – 55:43 | Coaching with Keena—fear, power, ego as illusion | | 56:44 – End | Cathy’s condensed takeaways & invitation |

---

Tone & Language

The tone throughout is open-hearted, nurturing, and spiritual. Cathy and her co-hosts speak with unwavering compassion and grounded wisdom, balancing mystical insights with down-to-earth anecdotes and practical coaching tools. Authenticity, humility, and permission-giving are woven through every exchange.

---

For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode is a rich, soulful guide to living with uncertainty, embracing your story before it makes “sense,” and transforming your wounds into collective healing. Whether you’re struggling with grief, creative visibility, or believing in your ability to receive abundance, you’ll find permission, grace, and actionable spiritual wisdom here.

If you crave realness, support, or just a reminder that your becoming is holy, listen—or, as Cathy would put it, come with us. The messy middle is where miracles happen.

Transcript

[Kathy Heller]

Have you ever noticed that sometimes life suddenly just opens up and the impossible starts to feel possible? On March 17, I'm teaching a special masterclass called the Spiritual Energy of Freedom. Just as we step into the powerful energy of the Aries season. Aries is the energy of courage, new beginnings, and bold movement forward. And in this class, we're going to explore how real breakthroughs, how they happen not just through effort, but through alignment with your soul. We're to talk about what it means to align with who you really are, with your divine guidance system, and expand your capacity to shift your consciousness so that new possibilities actually reach you. Because when you reconnect with the divine presence within you and you reconnect to God, something incredible happens. Fear loosens its grip and new paths begin to appear.

[Brooke]

If you're ready for your next breakthrough,

[Kathy Heller]

I'd love for you to join me. On March 17, I'll be teaching this live. You can sign up@kathy heller.com energy

[Charlotte]

hey,

[Kathy Heller]

guys, it's Kathy Heller. Welcome back to Everything is Energy. So tomorrow, I'm teaching a workshop all about freedom and the miracles that happen in our life when we break free from constriction. And I wrote something yesterday that I wanted to read to you, and it says this. It says, faith is a frequency of miracles. It's the vibration of certainty. Think about when you order something at a restaurant. You place the order, and then you lean back, you sip your drink, and you enjoy the moment. You're not running into the kitchen every five minutes asking if the chef started cooking. You already know it's coming. That calm certainty changes your whole energy. Desire works the same way. When a true desire lands in your heart, it's not random. God has already prepared it. The role of faith is simply to hold the frequency where you can perceive that when we keep checking or worrying or grasping for proof, we move into doubt and we disconnect from the energy. When we move into certainty, something mystical happens. Our eyes open. We notice the ideas, the people, the invitations, the doors that were always there. Faith is the soul relaxing into the knowing that what's meant for you is already in motion. And certainty is the frequency that lets the miracle find you. So there's a reason that faith is talked about so much in every spiritual tradition. Because faith is not passive. Faith is a frequency. And when you live in that certainty, your nervous system relaxes. You stop chasing proof. You stop gripping for signs. And suddenly your perception opens. And in a totally different way, you begin to notice things that were already there. The divine timing that starts lining up in ways you just could not have forced. Because the truth is, miracles aren't something God sends later. They already exist in the field of creation, but you can only perceive them when your energy is aligned with certainty instead of doubt. And right now, we're entering the energy of Aries, which in the Hebrew it's called Nisan on the lunar calendar, which is the energy of freedom and breakthroughs and the impossible doors opening. It's the same consciousness that led to the splitting of the Red Sea. And in tomorrow's workshop, I'm teaching exactly how to step into that frequency and how to move from doubt into certainty and how to become the kind of vessel that can actually receive those miracles. So if you feel like you're ready for a breakthrough, join me. I don't know what the it's not in the show notes. I don't know what the call to action is for that. So if you think you're ready for a breakthrough, join me. You can just go to kathyheller.com energy okay, so today's episode is beautiful and quite powerful. What you're going to hear is me coaching a few women, and we do this inside of my inner circle program. It's our higher level program. First, you're going to hear me coach Gemma, who came on the call with a question that I think so many of us wrestle with, especially if you're building something or putting yourself out there. She started her podcast after going through a really profound loss in her life, and now she feels called to grow it into a bigger platform. But she's struggling with this feeling that she can only show up once everything is figured out. Like she has to process the experience first, wrap it up in a neat lesson, and then teach it. And what unfolds in this conversation is such an important reminder that the most meaningful connections actually happen when we just bring people with us, when we're willing to share the story while we're still becoming. Then you're going to hear me coach Keena, who takes the conversation in another really beautiful direction. She's stepping into a new chapter in her work and feels both excited and terrified about putting things in the world and getting paid. And we talk about something that many of us experience, and it's the fear of being connected and visible and how to move forward when part of us is hitting the gas and another part of us is hitting the brakes. So this episode really becomes a conversation about grief, but also about authenticity and courage and what it means to let something bigger move through us as we create and share our work and I think you're gonna find so much medicine and healing here. By the way, if you want a chance to get one on one coaching like this from me, I do these kinds of hot seats inside of our higher level inner circle program, which is called business class. You can go to kathyheller.com businessclass and come and join us. Okay, let's get into this. Take a listen.

[Gemma]

Hi Kathy. Hi, Charlotte. Thank you for bringing me up. So I would love some advice. I'd love to get your thoughts, Kathy, on I'm struggling, like around showing up online from a place of sharing from the messy middle and yeah, sharing in real time as you're building something rather that I seem to be like, I'm struggling with this mindset of feeling like I can only show up whenever. I have lived through the thing and like packaged it up into this neat little lesson that I can show up and like teach. So just to make that try make sense, it's about my podcast. I've had my podcast Muse Yourself for like a year and a half now. And it up until this point has been Muse yourself, self love, and starting over. So sharing my story, sharing stories of other amazing women who have started their lives over and it's done well, but it's recent. Like it's definitely reached a plateau. So I've kind of been sitting with that, trying to like figure out what's going on. And I know it's because it's a me issue. I've not been showing up in fully in the way that I'm capable of. So I've kind of been sitting with that and I've had this like new vision come for where I want to take the next level of the podcast to and just to kind of give some context. I know I shared back when we had a leap day last year, Kathy, about how my podcast came about and

[Brooke]

her story is a book, it's a movie, it's like who's.

[Gemma]

I'm still holding out for the Netflix deal with it.

[Brooke]

I mean, is that Gyllenhaal? Like, who's is it? Who is it? Is it Emily Blunt? Like, who's playing you? Like, let's go. That story is epic.

[Keena]

But okay.

[Gemma]

Yeah, so yeah, just my podcast came about and going back to podcasts were essentially the thing that saved my life at that time when, when my husband had passed away and I'd lost my job and my home and all of that stuff in within a couple of months. And that was my way of like bribing myself to just get up in the morning. Like, if you can get up, you can just make a cup of coffee and listen to your podcast, and that's all. All you need to manage. You don't have to think about anything else. So that was what led me to create Muse Yourself to begin with, because I know the power of sharing our stories, and listening to those stories at that time was what helped me to keep going.

[Brooke]

Isn't she amazing, you guys? I spent time with her, and I was just completely bowled over by her magnetic, gorgeous, shimmering light. It's unbelievable.

[Gemma]

You're gonna make me get emotional. So, yeah, I feel like I'm now gravitating towards this new vision for Muse Yourself. I want to, because I know the power of sharing our stories and how it can. You know, you never know who you're impacting. You can literally be saving someone's life and be the reason that they're getting out of bed in the morning and. And keeping going. And I have this vision that I want to create, like, a global platform for powerful female storytelling. I want that to be the next iteration of Muse Yourself. So instead of use yourself, self love and starting over, I want it to be Muse Yourself, women who rise. And I want to create this hu. Like, I just can see it so clearly in my mind and taking it to the next level. And I feel like that is the next chapter that I'm being called to step into is to document the creation of this and to document my next reinvention in real time and take people along. But I'm just struggling with the mindset of that. I feel like up until this point, it's almost been like a coaching podcast. Not intentionally, but just because I'm in this mindset of, oh, I can't share until I've processed it and it's all neat and I can teach the lesson that I've learned. But now this new chapter, I feel I'm being called to share in real time as I'm building. And I. It feels like a stupid question to ask, how do I do that? But how do I do that? Like, I don't know. I'm just still struggling to get okay with. Yeah, it's okay to share it when you're just building and you're in the mess and. And you don't have all the answers yet. So I would love, love your thoughts and your wisdom.

[Brooke]

It's so powerful what you already just said and you said that, you know, there are moments where, you know that your story could change someone's life. And you just did that today. Like, every time you say those few sentences about your lived experience and you say it from your light, which we can see right now is just so. The flame is so light and bright, you communicate something so powerful every time you just did it. And it's interesting that this becomes wobbly to you and I wonder if it's because you don't fully recognize that you're doing it right. It's not, look at me. It's come with me. No one has all the answers. Everyone is a becoming. Everyone's in the messy middle, right? And it would be ridiculous for us to think that there is a moment in time where someone arrives and has the answers. We're all continuously peeling back the layers of the onion. And what makes life so beautiful is walking each other home, walking beside each other and sharing with each other what's working and what's confusing in real time. And connection is the thing that's missing from most of what's happening in the world. And what moves us isn't that someone gives us an answer, but that they make space. And when you make space for yourself and your own becoming, that's a revolution. That's when everyone's really listening. You know, not to use him as like the end all, because I think he's okay as a podcaster, Joe Rogan, but, like, obviously we got to give him his due. But he doesn't claim to have all the answers. He's like, I actually don't know, but I'm curious and there are things I have opinions about, but then I change my opinions and, you know, I certainly don't agree with everything he says. I can't really keep up. And he's such a bro y guy anyway that, like, I don't really listen to him. Like, it's not my thing. But what I do appreciate about him is that he really wants to connect and he doesn't want to be an expert and he doesn't want to say he has all the answers. He actually wants to, like, be in the inquiry of it. And I think that's why people appreciate it. I don't think anybody ever is looking for someone who goes, let me prescribe you the advice. Like, it's so off putting, you know, But I think that what we appreciate is the humility and the authenticity of someone who says, here's what's working for me. And I'm still figuring this out. And I feel like this is really helpful. And here's where I sometimes get you know, caught. And everyone's like, oh, thank you. Like, because remember, it's also just a 2 degree shift. We can't even take on a 10 degree shift. So when you just shared with us, just you being you just now, you gave everyone a two degree shift just now, even with everything else that's still not yet figured out. So it's almost like you are sitting on the greatest gem possible. Like the most viral, the most potent, magnetic kind of a person is the one who, like you, has a story that they're willing to share and, and doesn't feel any kind of answer key and also has some things and tools and is like, it's the essence of what makes any. Like, if we were writing a character in a movie, we'd write her just like you. It's so exactly as it needs to be. And it's interesting that it's wobbly for you. It's interesting that there's even this part of you that's like, I don't know, I guess it's even funny I'm asking this question, but am I able to lead? And it's like, it's not just a podcast, like you said. This is a much bigger. This is a community, this is a movement. This is people linking arms and connecting and leaning on each other and giving each other support and inspiration. And sometimes the most support and inspiration you get is someone saying, you're not alone. I don't know what the answer is, but I feel that same way. You're not alone. And just feeling less alone. You're like, okay, actually, I can get through another day because I don't feel like it's just me in this, you know? So I wonder what would happen if you, like, fully got behind it. Like, if you fully understood the unbelievable gift that you are. And I wonder where you're actually resisting. I wonder what's scary. I wonder where you're resisting the visibility or resisting the success. And I wonder if there's some way in which grieving, right, which is going to be a part of your journey for your whole life. No one's going to take that from you because it's love. And love gets to stay with us in all different forms. And one of them is grief. And I always feel like it's such a relief when people let us have our grief. Like, there's no sense in getting over anything. We just get to, like, live with it now, right, Forever. And it will change forms. But I wonder if in some way allowing this to become really successful and allowing yourself to really let in a lot of light is feeling like, in some way moving on from one stage of grief. And I see it as actually just, like, moving together, because from the true look at the universe, he's moving with you. In fact, so much of what's happening is a conversation that he's having with you that is ever growing and changing, that's now actually being communicated. So the two of you are. You're just going together to continue to shine a light into the world. Right. And you have this, like, ambassador in the heavenly realm who's now, like, a business partner. And so I just wonder if Charlotte wants to weigh in on that, because I think it's a little bit of her domain. And I'm curious. Charlotte worked, you know, trained in Reiki and coaching, but she also worked in hospice for so many years. And I just wonder, Charlotte, if you feel that there's a way that we can support her in this. Because what I know is that all of the blessings and the miracles and all the desires are already fulfilled. And so there is no time. Time is actually completely an illusion. We all just collectively bought into it. Like, we just did a daylight saving. That's made up. I don't know what that is. But we just move time around. So they're all now. They're not in the future. There is no future. It's just a matter of perception and widening your capacity to receive it from your vessel, expanding and no longer resisting that which wants to come in. And so there might be. And I'm just curious, because Charlotte knows more about grief than me and these kinds of really intense and beautiful spiritual journeys. So I'm curious, Charlotte, what your thoughts are about that.

[Charlotte]

Yeah, I mean, gosh, I. I have had experience of grief myself, and so many of my clients and their families, and grief is. Is fasc. It's, you know, I mean, you. I'm sure, you know. You know, there's seven stages of grief, and it's almost like, oh, my gosh, it's this clinical process, and there are people that expect you to. And a lot of people in healthcare, medical field expect us all to work through these seven stages. Okay, I'm done with the first one, onto the next one. And it really isn't like that. It's really about bouncing between all seven. And, you know, you could be in sick. The sixth stage, you could. You could. And then you feel angry, and then there's more of the acceptance, and then you feel angry again.

[Gemma]

So it's only one day, right?

[Charlotte]

In one minute, Gemma in one minute, it's this feeling of, oh, I feel a sense of acceptance. And now I'm really angry again. One thing I want to say to you is that after we met on that beautiful leap day that you had, I don't know if you really fully appreciate how impactful your words are, because I actually have your voice in my head much of the time. When you talked about just getting out of bed.

[Brooke]

Yeah, that was incredible.

[Charlotte]

Oh, it was unbelievable. And I don't know. And I really want to say this to you now, and I hope you can really let this land that was so impactful and will be for so many people. And I honestly think if you just kept repeating that when everything felt so lost and hopeless and desperate, the one thing you focused on was, I'll just get. I mean, it brings me to tears because I hear you saying it. And I honestly have been replaying that since last year. If I can just get out of bed, if I can just take the next step, and we don't have to have it all together, and we can always be in that messy middle, and there is such beauty. And there's another word. There's such awakening from that messy middle, from being in that grief and holding that. That space and giving permission for other people to stay in it. And I always remember a friend of mine lost her husband. She. And of course, she was devastated. And after a year, the group of friends that we were in and a lot of them nurses said, oh, my gosh, it's been a year. She should have moved on by now. And I thought, oh, my gosh, who is anyone to tell you where you should be in this process? And like Kathy said, this is going to be part of your life forever as you move forward. He's such an integrated part of who you are. So I wonder if there's. And if you can feel a connection to that part of you that feels almost like this sense of, I should be done with this. I should have moved on to the next stage. What's wrong? Because I'm, you know, I'm here one minute, I'm there the next, I'm angry, I'm accepting, you know, whatever that looks like. I wonder if you can connect with that part of you and really lean in and love that part of you that feels like it has to be all wrapped up in a box neatly and tidily, because that's not what grief is.

[Brooke]

Did you just have a breakthrough? From what. Because I got a breakthrough for you from what Charlotte just said. What are you feeling from what we both just shared.

[Gemma]

It's funny what, what you just mentioned back in, in the leap day, because I remember thinking at that time, telling that story to you both was the first time I'd ever told anyone that story ever. Like, ever even said those words out loud. And after I came away from our session, I, for the first time ever, went and recorded a podcast episode telling that story. I'd had my podcast for over a year but never told that story, which is insane because that's the whole reason the podcast exists. But for the first time, I actually, I went and recorded a raw, like my story, just what I had said to you both and put it out there for the first time. And yeah, got a really nice response to it. But I agree with what you're saying. I feel like maybe some of the issue is being brought up in an environment where it's not okay to, as you say, people expect you to move on really quickly. And I feel like there's a part of me still feels like it's maybe not okay to share this or to talk about it as much for fear of people thinking, oh, she trying to like, exploit this in some way or trying to use this in. In some way. Because that, yeah, I know that sounds ridiculous saying it out loud, but that's the kind of environment I've been brought up in where we don't use the things that have happened to us to get attention or, you know, I feel like that that's probably like playing in there somewhere.

[Brooke]

I want to say a few things. First of all, Charlotte, what you said was so helpful. It really unlocked this puzzle for me, which is to say, because I knew you would know because not only have you gone through grief, losing your mom at a young age, but you. Not only did Charlotte work in an icu, but then she worked in pediatric hospice. So that's like a very next level of beyond, beyond the words for grief. And when she just said that you're always bouncing between the six stages. It's never linear how many people need to hear that, how many people just need permission to know that it is quite all right for them to be in their process. And how many people grew up around parents or well meaning people who didn't have any room for anyone to feel anything other than everything's great. And how much of the world's problems have been caused because no one has the space to just let you feel your feelings. And I'm sure you're this way. I know I'm this way. I know Charlotte is This way I'm never the person to cheer anyone up. I'm like, let's feel it. Like, I will never do that to you. I'm like, that it sucks. Like, this is not okay, you know, And I think people are so uncomfortable with their own feelings. And so there is just such, honestly, so much tension and stress and the parasympathetic nervous. So much of that is happening because we just don't know how to actually invite what's here. And I think about people who've changed the world and people who write books and people who have allowed all of us to sort of have epiphanies. It's one message. Over and over. It's one message. Eckhart Tolle. What is he talking about? Power of no, it's only now. Do we need him to give us 10 different messages? How about just one that really lands right? What is Marianne Williamson saying? Only love is real. Only love is real. Over and over and over again. Like, why is that? Which you just said. And it honestly blows my mind that you had only told us that for the first time because it was so beautiful. It was mesmerizing. I 100% remember every detail of it. And I then can't believe you're like, yeah. And I had not shared it on the podcast, even though that's what the whole podcast was about. Do you see how insidious it is? How we get raised to feel guilt and shame for just being with what is. And think about how many people every single day would naturally be able to find well being if they were allowed to invite their grief to the table, if there was a space for their grief. And sometimes their grief is anger, and sometimes their grief is sadness or whatever those six stages are. And it's extraordinary. And it's wild to me that you're even asking the question, because it's like, this is the medicine. I think I remember telling you that one of my friends podcasts is called Terrible. Thanks for asking. She lost her husband to a brain tumor and the whole podcast is about, no, I'm actually Terrible, but thanks for asking. And she does it in a very, like, honest and then Tina Fey way. So she's both very funny and she's also very willing to talk about how upset she is. And it's a great combo. And she wrote a book about it. It did so well. Because how unique is it that someone's like, no, I'm terrible, but thanks for asking. It's like, oh, my God. Honesty. Oh my God, right? And even for people who are not grieving necessarily in the same ways. They appreciate that somebody is allowing for feelings. And I don't think that you realize that whatever let them has done for the world. And that woman's poem that turned into Mel's book, which is a huge concept. Huge, right? Life changing this, like, feel it, like, be messy. Like, it's going to keep coming up and it's actually not linear. Like, that is your medicine. And feelings are like visitors, right? In mindfulness, we learn that if you just let them in, they'll stop pounding at the door and they'll actually subside. It's the reason. I don't know if you guys have ever read it. One of my favorite books is Women, Food and God by Janine Roth. And I asked Anne Lamott what is her favorite book? And she said, women, Food and God. And I was like, okay, if Anne Lamott is saying that. So, like, that's a great book. And the whole book is about feeling your feelings. And she's saying it from, like, she had an eating disorder her whole life. But really that was from not wanting to face what she didn't think she could handle feeling. But once she actually leaned in, she realized that underneath the feeling, when she let herself feel it, underneath that feeling was God. Underneath that feeling was the biggest, most incredible access to her soul. And that she could tolerate feeling it. And that if she just leaned all the way in, like, after 90 seconds of feeling the full grief, the full pain, the full whatever, she met the strength inside of her that was like a tiger. Like, it was like the strength she didn't even know she had. And it was just. That's why people don't let people feel. They're afraid that they won't come out of it, or they're afraid that they won't be able to handle watching someone and not knowing how to fix it. But if we all let ourselves have that Sally Field moment from Steel Magnolias, like, once a week, we would just be so fine. Like, life is very lifey. And I'll say one other thing, which is that Zach Bush, he's a doctor, he was working as a physician at a monastery for a few years. And he was fascinated that these people in the monastery had a lot of physical problems, because physical problems usually come from high cortisol, which creates inflammation in the body and turns into disease, which is all kinds of different ailments. And then he realized it was because they themselves didn't feel. They were allowed to feel their human feelings. They were supposed to move into Enlightenment all the time. And he said from a spiritual place. Actually, your soul asked to have both. Your soul knows what it's like to be enlightened, but it came into a human body to feel every human experience. And if you deny the human part of you, the grief, the anger, the whatever it metabolizes and holds into the body, and it turns into disease, it turns into sickness. You have to feel it. And so he was teaching that to monks that, like, you're still human. Right? And so, like, part of being mindful now, we know, is teaching kids to name feelings. Mindfulness now includes not only positive feelings that there's no weight. You can't weigh one against the other. It's not like, oh, only the positive ones are worthy. No, we teach kids now to just name it. Oh, and let's give them words for it. This one's fear, this one's frustration. This one's anxiety. This one's stress. This one's tension. This one's pleasure, this one's enthusiasm. And just feeling how we can flow in between all of them gives us more capacity for equanimity. And the greatest high is not joy. It's equanimity. It's, I can be with everything as it is, in divine order. And so you, like Mary Oliver, like some of the most incredible souls of all time, are just saying, everything has its place in the divine order of all things. And all of it is welcome. All of you is welcome here. And the all of you is welcome here is a revolution. And so that messy is the blessing.

[Charlotte]

Yeah, that messy allows other people to really lean into their feelings because they haven't been able to share because it's been however long and they are still feeling the grief, and they now don't feel like they can talk about it. So. Oh, my gosh, you're. You're helping everyone unwrap their boxes.

[Brooke]

You're such a treasure, Gemma. And you're the perfect person, like God sent the perfect person because you have such a poetic way about you and everything about you. You're the perfect casting for this. There's just something about you that all you needed was the permission to feel. And to know that you can give that permission to others is your greatest gift. And you can do it in a way that I can't do it. You can do it in a way that will actually matter deeper, because that's your gift.

[Gemma]

This has been like medicine. Thank you. So just exactly the talk that I needed.

[Brooke]

When you take that strength, you had to say, I think I Am going to air episode about this. And you run your whole podcast now, and your whole consciousness now is from that place of permission and strength. It's going to be an avalanche of so many blessings.

[Gemma]

Actually, before. Can I just tell you, whenever we finished our Leap Day session, you'd lovingly, like, kicked my butt a little bit about refusing to show up. I wasn't fully getting in my visibility, and I did come away and think about that. And yesterday I just recorded. I'm launching my podcast into video. No, yesterday I just recorded my first video episode. It's not gone out yet, but from here on in, the podcast is going to be video and no more. Just hiding behind audio. So that's been scary, but exciting. That probably came as a direct result of our Leap Day session as well.

[Brooke]

So I love that so much. And I just had a thought. I'm just going to share it because that's how impulsive I always am. If you need sunshine and you decide to come to Los Angeles for this summer summit, we're doing two days of Kathy Heller Live and we have amazing people speaking. And I feel like if you come for that sunshine, I'm going to call you on stage so that we give everyone a very beautiful moment of permission to feel their feelings and hear you share a little bit of that story if you would like to, because I think it would be a huge gift.

[Gemma]

I just need to tell you, I've literally, since last year, been manifesting an opportunity to go to LA for something relating to my podcast. It's been on my vision board. It's been. I've been talking it out loud to all of my friends. I even said it on the podcast. So that was literally just like my manifestation come to life right there.

[Brooke]

Well, I think you know how to do it, Gemma. I think you. You have your wings.

[Gemma]

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

[Brooke]

We were conspiring together in the quantum field. We were talking to each other before we even knew it. Yeah. I'm so proud of you and thank you for bringing such an awesome gift to all of us today.

[Gemma]

Thank you for calling me up. I was really nervous and I almost didn't do it. So I feel like this is just. It was meant to be. Thank you.

[Brooke]

I love how this community is so divinely connected to the wholeness, that when each of us becomes more whole and aligned, each of us becomes more whole and aligned. It's so rare. It's so good. And, Charlotte, I'm really so grateful to you all the time. And what you said today, you just Taught me something. You gave me such a gift. I don't know as much about grief and what you said. It was really such a breakthrough that of course, we bounce between all of those and probably even in a day, you know? And by the way, you know, I don't have as much experience with grief as other people, perhaps, but I lost my dad a year and a half ago. But we're all grieving other things, you know, Like, I've watched my friends who are empty nesters feel so embarrassed that they're going through the grief of their kids moving out. And I'm like, that is its own version of grief. Like, how there's no room when you're a mother. You know what that feels like when you love them so much and then there's a goodbye. Like, I just feel like it is amazing how we all go through life and no one can tolerate anyone's feelings. And there's all different kinds of grief. And. And yes, of course, some are much more capital T trauma, and they deserve their due. And I'm not trying to say that they're the same, but I am saying that it's so helpful what you said, Charlotte. And you have such an incredible gift to hold love for people and to tolerate that people are allowed to feel all their feelings and you can be with it. It's really incredible. When my dad. When my dad was in hospice, we had different nurses do different shifts, and some of them are very, like, stoic. And I thought, well, that makes sense. Like, you know, I don't know how you could be. And then I meet Charlotte, who's, like, such an empath, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, she was able to do that, like, and actually feel and sit there and feel it. It's like a whole other level, you know? So it's amazing.

[Charlotte]

I just. I know. What I know to be true is if we all lent into our feelings and allowed them all to be there, we would feel so much more at PE Peace. We truly would. When we resist, what we resist persists. And it really does that, that feeling, the grief, whatever the feeling is, it will stay there. And you're so right, Kathy, it will. I mean, our lungs hold our grief. And it's no wonder that so many of us feel grief and we don't feel able to fully express it or allow it to flow through the body. And then we end up with breathing problems. And. Yeah, just. I know when we lean into all the feelings and allow them. And you're so right as well, with the, you know, when the adult children leave home and then they come back and then they leave again and then they come back and they leave again. And every time, and I go through this myself, every time we feel that grief. Yeah, there's so much grief. And there is also so much room when we really find people that we connect with. And this community is just incredible for that, for people to really hold space for each other. It really is so beautiful.

[Brooke]

I'm just in awe.

[Charlotte]

Okay.

[Brooke]

Beautiful. Okay. Let's have another amazing conversation.

[Charlotte]

Very helpful. I see. Kenna, Sue. Hi. Hi, Kenna.

[Brooke]

Hello, ladies.

[Charlotte]

Hi, lovely.

[Keena]

I'm doing great. I love this because what you just told to Brooke and also. But talk to Gemma kind of like bring a lot of answers together. And that part of the judgment and rejection about receiving money, I think is. Is one of the things that is holding me back of putting an offer that I have now. I just did a certification in neuroepigenetic breathing and it's just blown my mind. And that's the thing. Since I am shifting what I'm offering, it's also that kind of doubt or kind of fear, but also like excitement at the same time. So, yeah, I would like to listen to your wisdom and perspectives on how to go through that because I did already the self launching with the people who are in my newsletter and the wait list is there, but it's more now like, okay, really taking the action because I am certain that it is done. I am. It's just that fact of okay, then take that little action, like put a date already, because I haven't even put a date yet. And I know of course that will put me then to take the action that I need. But it's just the fact that I'm changing, or better said, I'm including this new certification with what I'm offering. And it's kind of like scary. That's the truth.

[Brooke]

When you say it's scary. What's scary about it?

[Keena]

That is so powerful of that change, the transformation that I can create. That now that you are asking me, I think is probably the fear of my own power of being able to help people.

[Charlotte]

Yeah. There's a very tender part there when you speak of your power. Yeah. Can you connect with her? What does she want to say? What is she scared of?

[Keena]

She's scared of the fact that she knows it can really work now and bring my business out there and create the impact that I would like to and by consequence create the money at the same time.

[Charlotte]

And what would that mean to Be that powerful. What would that mean?

[Keena]

You will need to shine to be out there.

[Charlotte]

And then what?

[Keena]

The rejection part.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Charlotte]

Yeah.

[Keena]

Back to that.

[Charlotte]

Yeah. There's that little one. Yeah. That has felt that rejection before. It's. It's like the gas and the brake. It's like, I know it's done, but I haven't put a date on it. I know my power, but I fear rejection. And this is so normal. It is. So I really want you to hear that. It is so normal to have these two conflicting parts of gas. Go. Hang on. Nervous system dysregulated. Put the brakes on. Yeah. And when those two parts can really lean in and get an understanding of what the other wants so that the power understands and holds space for the rejected part, and the rejected part understands and holds space for the power. It's like two people from different places coming together and having a conversation and understanding what it's like for both of them. Does that make sense? Yes.

[Brooke]

Yes, it does. Okay. So this is why it's so fun to work with Charlotte, because we overlap, and then we also can go into, like, the different quadrants of the human experience. And one side that you're talking about right now is she's helping you put language to what's happening in your nervous system so that you can feel your body, your nervous system let go. So you have permission to move. Right. But from a spiritual lens, which is where I live in the world, it's all an illusion, because it's not your power, it's God. Okay. And let me explain. You're not making yourself visible. You're a pointer towards the divine. So the reason I can allow myself to move and grow and always be visible is because I'm not here for Kathy's visibility. It's not that interesting. What's interesting about a faucet isn't the faucet. It's the water coming through the faucet. What's interesting about a light bulb is not the light bulb. It's not the lampshade. It's not. Did you get it at Crate and Barrel?

[Keena]

It's.

[Brooke]

Does it turn on? Is there electricity moving through this lamp? Because if it's broken, I don't care that you got this wherever you got it. Pottery, Barnesey Gallery. It's gross. Dump it. Dump it. Right. So the reason why Esther Hicks, she's asked, like, why do you call yourself Abraham? She's like, because I feel clear that I'm a channel and Esther is a body, and my soul is. Probably has another name. Who the heck knows what it's called, right? And I'm channeling, like, you know, she. She really feels connected to Abraham right at the seat of those Abrahamic traditions, okay? So she calls it that. Call it what you want, but it's not you. But it's part of you. It's part of us. It's hard for us to understand, but it's like this. God is the alpha and the Omega. What does that mean? God is infinite. God is not limited. So is it that God's only up in the sky? No. God is the oneness in everything. There's nowhere. God isn't. There's no blade of grass that God is not willing to live. There's nothing. There's nothing but God's essence. That's how big God is. That's how divine infiniteness is infinite. Okay? So it also lives in us. So we're not God. I'm not the creator of the universe, but there's an aspect of the Creator in me. And when I'm actually like, the instrument of me is working. I didn't create love. I didn't create wisdom. I didn't create compassion. But I become a vessel for energy that is divinely aligned and infinite. And something plays through me. So what does it mean that we get scared of our power? It means our ego is starting to wobble and go, I can't hold all this. And it's correct. It won't. It can't do it, right? I was talking to my friend Christina Perry, like, a year ago, because she had to perform in front of Julie Andrews. They were doing this thing at the Disney Concert Hall. It was like an event for Julie Andrews, and every one of these songwriters was gonna sing a song of hers. So she's like, I need to call you. Cause I'm doing this tomorrow, and I'm freaking out. And what do I do? Like, how am I gonna go sing in front of Julie Andrews? I go, you're not singing in front of Julie Andrews. A part of you is singing in front of Julie Andrews, but your gift is not yours. It's moving through you when you let go. Did you write a thousand years?

[Kathy Heller]

Sort of.

[Brooke]

Where did it come from? She's like, I don't know. It just came. Inspiration. It's a flow. It's coming from the divine. It's a download from the grid, a bigger grid than us. There's intuition and information that's coming from something bigger than us. Okay? So I said to her, just let it go. You don't have to do this. You could never do this. Your ego in front of her ego, then measuring whose egos are bigger and the statuses of the garbage. And of all that illusion, none of it's real. What's real is that somewhere inside of Julie Andrews, most of us, if we grew up in our generation, were touched by the godliness in her. Okay, so the Julie Andrews part, who cares, right? But whatever's in her, that love in her is connected to the love in you. And the love in you is one with the love in her. And that part of you is going to just open your mouth and it's going to move through you, and she's going to feel it. And nothing from that part of you wants to be impressive. It just wants to connect with itself. Right? And you both have it. So she was like, oh, my. Thank you so much. I was like, yeah, because, like, when you go into the ego of it, how do I sound? Oh, my God, I'm going to get a cold. My throat. Who cares? No one cares about your throat. You know, Bob Dylan doesn't even have a good voice. It's not the voice. It's what's moving through the voice. No one cares about the voice. It's what's the feeling in the voice, which we all have inside of us. And we go, oh, my God, we're all connected. It's the love, it's the oneness, it's the godliness. Okay? So I get excited about being visible and growing my podcast and my show, because you know what I feel like I'm doing? Holding up a laser pointer and going, you see the divine. It's in you, and it's always there. So I feel like all the glory to the king. That's how I feel in my life. I don't have anything else to do. Nothing else is that interesting, right? Which is why I could show up here in a sweatshirt with a cold. Because it's not, you didn't come for me. You came for something that hopefully moves through me, that reminds me, you of what's moving through you. So when that part of you can just settle down and you say, hey, you never did it. You can't do it. But what you can do and what each of us gets credit for is allowing ourselves to be a vessel for a power greater than ourselves. And that's when the best ideas flow through. That's when the best athletic people become athletic. It's like, it's something. It's flow. It's flow. So then you would say, I Wouldn't want to make the divine more visible, which is to show people back to what lives in themselves. Because that's what people do. That's what great musicians do. That's what great artists do. That's what great athletes do. Why do people want to be like Michael Jordan? Not because of him. It's because of what he represents that he's saying you can do within yourself. That's why kids want to wear Nikes. They want to be like Mike. They want to be. Be the version of themselves that when they see we all see only a reflection of ourselves. That's all we're looking at, right? A hologram. So when people are watching him play, they're saying to themselves, oh, my God, you're awakening in me. You're stirring up something that's like. You're activating that. I think there's something in me that could become great. I could become the greatest of all time, too, in my own lane. And that's what you just did for me. It's not basketball. It's definitely not basketball. Right. It's whenever somebody's in flow, they help us get into our flow. So do you see how insidious it is that the ego is just like. And then it will block you because it knows it's a sham. So how could you make it puff it up so much, make it so visible it'll just crumble? It can't hold it. It's the reason James Doughty, in his book into the Magic Shop, talks about holding the whole or the operating room. He has everybody in the operating room tap into a greater consciousness when he goes to do brain surgery, because he goes, oh, you thought I could do brain surgery? Are you insane? You think I can do this? I can't do this. The doctor just creates the conditions by which hopefully healing takes place. Doctors don't heal people. Doctors don't know how to heal people. They hopefully create the conditions by which healing takes place. That's the best they could do. He's doing brain surgery, you know, so it's like, that's the magic. The magic is really putting everything in its place. And now you're just going to move. Now you can be visible. Now you can be powerful. Now you can make money. Because it's all about something bigger than us. And that's what we're hoping to put on display. That's so important and will help you move mountains in your life.

[Keena]

Thank you for the reminder. We forget.

[Brooke]

We forget. Yeah. And when performers. I was saying this recently that when I went to see Coldplay this summer. I was aware, because he's doing 285 shows or something a year. And I thought, oh, the reason he's not burnt out is because he knows it's not look at Chris. It's, let's become one and shine a light into the world. So he uses his concert as a vehicle for divinity, and he talks about it constantly. And he makes everybody aware that they each create a sound bath with their own hearts. And he talks about it in between every song. And I thought, oh, that's why he hasn't smashed his face with drug overdoses and whatever. Because it's not him, him, him. It's us, us, us. Let's go up. Let's use this as a channel. And when you do that, you can sustain it. You can sustain visibility when it's not you making yourself visible, but it's you creating love in the room to be visible. And that's what he's doing. And when performers don't do that, every time, it's like, here comes the train wreck. Watch it set a clock to it, you know? Now watch it deconstruct because it can't. The ego just can't hold anything. And then it, like, drowns itself. But when we're a vehicle for something bigger, and we see that in a lot of artists, and we see that in a lot of scientists, and we see that in a lot of people who do big things, that's when you know, it's the jfk. Ask not what your country does for you. It's you. That's why people loved him. It was about us. He made it about us. He put the country into their power. It wasn't him, him, him. It's you, you, you, us, us, us. What can we do together? That's leadership. Not, look at me. But let's all come together. Let's do this. We all have this, right? That's faith. And that's when things get so good, right? So you have it, and you just were bumping up against the constriction of where that part of your identity is. Like, I'm out. I can't go further than. I can't take you further than this. I can only get you from here to here, where you're headed. You have to let me go, and you have to do it another way. Does that make sense? At a certain point, that old identity, that ego consciousness, can only get you so far of the way, and then it has to take a seat.

[Keena]

Yeah, I think it's There where? And I just mentioned it on the chat. This, that self grief that sometimes we forget. And I know I've been going through this sometimes and I think I have felt it more lately. And it's that part of me that I need to grieve because I know this new part is already ready.

[Brooke]

And that's why I say that when we really actually step into our power and our greatest visibility, that's where the humility kicks in. We have to actually bow out and give it over to something bigger. And so I felt that in myself for sure. There were many layers of like, oh, this is actual humility now, like, Kathy's gonna go take a seat in something else. I'm just gonna have to let go. And I'm being called into a divine assignment and it's not about me. So let's just be in service to something bigger. And it feels so much easier. It's so much easier.

[Keena]

Thank you so much.

[Brooke]

I'm so glad that you asked that and I'm so glad you were the one to ask it because you are such a divinely conscious person. Being so you could. You needed it and now it's just going to be like wildfire. But this call was exceptional and we had so many good moments and insights, and I'm so grateful that you guys have the capacity to really move things. And each of you, what you asked really did so much for all of us. So I just am so grateful. It was amazing.

[Kathy Heller]

That was such a beautiful conversation. I want to give a huge thank you to Gemma and Keena for letting us share these conversations with you. They're both such extraordinary women and I'd love for you to check out what they're doing. We have their links in the show notes along with a link. Kathyheller.com businessclass to join this inner circle community, which is called business class, where you can get opportunities to raise your hand and coach with me every single week.

[Brooke]

That.

[Kathy Heller]

That's kathyheller.com businessclass we would love to have you. Okay, here are the takeaways. Number one, it's not look at me, it's come with me. No one has all the answers. Everyone is becoming. We're all walking each other home. When you make space for your own becoming, that's a revolution. Number two, all of the blessings and the miracles and all the desires are already fulfilled. There's no future. It's just a matter of widening your capacity to receive it from your vessel. Expanding and no longer resisting that which wants to come in. Number three, invite all your feelings to the table. This is the medicine. Number four. The greatest high is not joy. It's equanimity. It's I can be with everything as if all is in divine order because everything has its place and all of it's welcome. The mess is actually part of the blessing. Number five. God is infinite. God is the oneness in everything. There's an aspect of the Creator in all of us. When the instrument of you is working, you become a vessel for energy that is divinely aligned and infinite. Number six. You see the divine. It's in you, and it's always there. What each of us gets credit for is allowing ourselves to be a vessel for a power greater than ourselves. Number seven. The magic is really putting everything in its place. And now you can just move. Now you can be visible. Now you can just be powerful. Now you can make money. Because it's always about something bigger than us. Thank you so much for listening. I know that there's so much going on in all of our lives, and I really appreciate that you are here and that you're listening, and I hope that it's inspiring you. We have great episodes coming up, so please follow along on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening. And if you heard something today on this show that really moved you and spoke to your heart, please share the show with someone or post about the show on Instagram or leave us a review. I love reading them. Here's one that we just recently got. It says wonderful. I look forward to every single episode and learn something new. Inspiring, thoughtful and positive. Everyone should listen for a fresh new take on life. Thank you, Kathy. And thank you so much to Katherine who left that review. I appreciate you so much. If you haven't left this review, please do. Before we go, I just want to remind you that tomorrow, March 17th, I'm doing a special masterclass about the spiritual energy of Aries and how you can make real breakthroughs. This month. You can join us if you go to kathyheller.com energy I love you so much and I'll talk to you again soon.