The Centaur Podcast: Wild Herd Dynamics with Mary Ann Simonds and Barbara Wheeler, Part 1
Host: Camron Adibi
Guests: Mary Ann Simonds (Equine Behavioral Ecologist), Barbara Wheeler (Wild Horse Photographer)
Date: May 9, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, host Camron Adibi brings together two leading voices in wild horse research: Mary Ann Simonds, renowned equine behavioral ecologist, and Barbara Wheeler, acclaimed wild horse photographer. The trio dives deep into the misunderstood world of wild herd dynamics, using Wheeler's evocative photos and Simonds’ decades of field research to challenge common myths about wild horses. Major themes include how functional and dysfunctional herds operate, the nuances of horse communication and learning, gender roles, myths about stallion dominance, and individual herd culture.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Meeting and Collaboration Origins
- How The Guests Met:
- Mary Ann spotted a unique photo at a Northwest horse event (02:32).
- “I knew instantly what it was… she had captured so many behaviors, these subtle behaviors that you miss if you aren't a good eye, a good listener.” — Mary Ann Simonds (03:39)
- Barbara confirms Mary Ann as the only person to correctly identify that photo.
- “No one has ever, other than you, has ever correctly identified that photo.” — Barbara Wheeler (03:39)
2. The "Threesome" Photo: Stallions and Colt on Patrol
- Description: Three horses, two stallions and a colt, all attentive and coordinated.
- Interpretation:
- Eyes connect; behaviors are mimicked—powerful example of stallion mentorship.
- “Their eyes are all connected to each other…their behavior is being mimicked.” — Mary Ann Simonds (04:49)
- Barbara notes it's rare but shows natural stallion caregiving, challenging the idea that foals always stay with mares.
- “Normally you would see that foal with a mare… so it’s still a pretty unique photo for me.” — Barbara Wheeler (07:12)
3. Dispelling Myths: Herd Structure and Social Roles
- Stallion “Ownership” Myths Debunked:
- Early field experience challenged the prevalent belief of stallion-centric harems.
- “So much of perception of wild horses is that, you know, they're mares…and it was not right at all.” — Mary Ann Simonds (09:01)
- Role Fluidity:
- Mothers, siblings, and “uncle” stallions all take part in foal-rearing.
- “Sometimes the mares became very protective… other times the mares push their foals into the center… you might have a two-year-old babysitting.” — Mary Ann Simonds (10:10)
- Mothers, siblings, and “uncle” stallions all take part in foal-rearing.
4. Functional Herd Behaviors and Social Bonds
- Proprioception and Positioning:
- Central to survival; foals learn where to position for safety.
- “It’s critical where you stay…that foal is in perfect position behind its mother's shoulder…” — Mary Ann Simonds (20:02)
- Functional vs. Dysfunctional Herds:
- Functional groups have strong social bonds, low aggression, cooperative rearing.
- “Those horses that had strong social networks…low reproductive rates…spent their energy raising foals and maintaining social bonds.” — Mary Ann Simonds (21:05)
5. Lead Mare and Decision-Making
- Mare-Centric Movement:
- Lead mares often decide when to move, not stallions.
- “They are the ones that are saying, okay, it’s time to go to water… the stallions kind of follow along when the mare decides.” — Mary Ann Simonds (15:23)
- Example Photo:
- Utah herd, lead mare holds group back out of curiosity, despite stallion wanting to leave.
- “She did not want to leave. She wanted to know all about us… It was only when she consented…” — Barbara Wheeler (17:01)
- Utah herd, lead mare holds group back out of curiosity, despite stallion wanting to leave.
6. Variability Across Herds and Time
- Individual & Regional Differences:
- Behavior often dictated by unique “herd culture,” personalities, and environmental pressures.
- “Different herds, different behaviors, different cultures…look for those functional behaviors.” — Mary Ann Simonds (26:49)
- Bachelor bands are flexible, with individuals forming new alliances as needed.
7. Diet and Health
- Misconceptions About Wild Horse Condition:
- Many assume wild horses must be scrawny; photos and fieldwork contradict this.
- “They do not look like wild animals…they’re so healthy…” — Camron Adibi (22:37)
- Barbara was even accused of photographing domestic horses due to their health.
- “I was accused of going out and photographing domestic horses…” — Barbara Wheeler (27:59)
- Dietary Research:
- Horses adapt diets widely; limited overlap with cattle; resourcefulness emphasized (e.g., eating juniper berries, climbing rough terrain).
- “You could actually get a degree in wildlife biology without ever knowing… what the animal ate. I thought, oh, that is ridiculous.” — Mary Ann Simonds (23:00)
8. Social Learning and Discipline
- Role of Play and Boundaries:
- Yearlings and 2-year-olds engage in vigorous play, sometimes under watchful stallion eyes.
- “When they start getting a little too rough, that’s not okay.” — Mary Ann Simonds (36:19)
- Discipline:
- Stallions intervene if play becomes disruptive; mares will protect younger foals from rough peers.
9. Band Size and Fission-Fusion
- Band Size:
- Averages: Now ~6–7 (post-intervention); historically smaller units were common.
- Bands often combine into large herds in spring, then split in summer/fall, influenced by forage and water.
- “The bands have stayed rather stable during those three seasons but the herd has fluctuated.” — Barbara Wheeler (42:27)
- Leaving the Band:
- Young stallions often ousted at 2–3 years, join bachelor bands.
- Some resist leaving, others may take mares and form new groups.
10. Relationships and Parental Roles
- Stallion Involvement:
- Stallions regularly engage in rearing foals; never “absentee sires.”
- “All stallions are involved with the raising of the foal.” — Camron Adibi (46:26)
- “Every single one of them. Never seen one that wasn’t.” — Barbara Wheeler (46:30)
- Variation:
- Individual personalities apparent in both stallions and mares—some more nurturing, some more distant.
11. Wild Horses’ Capacity for Adaptation and Organization
- Examples of Adaptiveness:
- Newly captured wild horses organized themselves calmly in a new environment, astonishing observers.
- “There were four stallions. They all got off and they went to each individual paddock and stall on their own. The mares…went off into a pasture together…” — Mary Ann Simonds (29:11)
- Horses loading themselves into trailers for perceived safety.
- Newly captured wild horses organized themselves calmly in a new environment, astonishing observers.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the need to let go of assumptions:
- “Learning to listen and see through the eyes and of a child that doesn’t know anything was much better.”
— Mary Ann Simonds (09:25)
- “Learning to listen and see through the eyes and of a child that doesn’t know anything was much better.”
-
On photographic evidence:
- “You are the only person that has correctly identified that photo.”
— Barbara Wheeler (03:39)
- “You are the only person that has correctly identified that photo.”
-
On herd adaptability:
- “Wild horses that are not stressed, that can actually think and smell and communicate what they need to do with no humans intervening.”
— Mary Ann Simonds (30:19)
- “Wild horses that are not stressed, that can actually think and smell and communicate what they need to do with no humans intervening.”
-
On stallion caregiving:
- “All stallions are involved with the raising of the foal… Never seen one that wasn’t.”
— Barbara Wheeler (46:30)
- “All stallions are involved with the raising of the foal… Never seen one that wasn’t.”
Timestamps for Key Segments
| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:39 | Guest Introductions and Historic Collaboration | | 02:32 | How Mary Ann & Barbara Met, First Photo Discussion | | 04:49 | The “Threesome” Photo: Herd Patrol and Stallion Mentorship | | 09:01 | Challenging Harem Myth, Early Research Finds | | 15:23 | Lead Mare Role in Movement Decisions | | 20:02 | Foal Safety & Positioning in Herd | | 22:37 | Wild Horse Health and Misconceptions | | 23:00 | Diet, Resourcefulness, and Field Research Stories | | 27:59 | Photo Authenticity Misconceptions | | 29:11 | Organization of New Herd Captives | | 36:19 | Play, Learning, and Discipline Among Yearlings & 2-Year-Olds | | 39:39 | Band Composition & Ousting Young Stallions | | 42:27 | Band vs. Herd Seasonal Dynamics | | 46:26 | Stallion Parental Involvement |
Conclusion
This richly detailed, story- and photo-driven discussion upends many assumptions about wild horses, their group dynamics, and social intelligence. Both guests emphasize the diversity among horse herds, both in behavior and “culture,” while providing evidence of functional family structures, flexible gender roles, and the ability of horses to adapt their societies across varied landscapes and challenges. The episode closes with a tease for Part 2, promising more on these unique equine societies.
For Further Exploration
- Book Referenced: A Horse by Nature by Mary Ann Simonds and Barbara Wheeler
- Photos Discussed: Available at YouTube link for this episode; highly recommended for visual context.
- Contact/More Info: camronadibi.com
Stay tuned for Part 2 for deeper dives into wild herd relationships and more myth-busting!