David Droga (2:31)

There you go. Well, just come after me so then I don't have to change my ranking because I don't want to have to suddenly migrate to six. But. But I was, as I said, I hadn't been intimidated for 20 years. Doesn't mean I wasn't everything's easy or it just came to me and all that sort of stuff. I mean, there were things really matter, there's lots of pressure, but just put myself into a space that I thought I needed to learn again, brings a lot of what my belief system is and values to that, but also put myself in a huge. A huge canvas with exceptionally bright people that touches so many different industries than what I had. That was also a lot of pressure. And I. I think the exhausting part is the opportunity is so vast, which is another reason I took it, to not live up to the opportunity and move at the pace that I'd. The rest of my career always moved at a very fast pace, and I was very fortunate for that. And it took me around the world and that part of my behavior did. I didn't want to lose. I see what the opportunity was realized. You know, that's going to take great people, vision, strategy, clarity. But it's. The scale is so much bigger. Could I move at the same pace for us to get there?

Host (3:47)

And what'd you find?

David Droga (3:49)

I found it's. You can't. Well, in some levels, you can move at that pace. You know, about the first, you know, the first year is about, you know, collecting and protecting the best people. You know, I mean, can I protect the great people we have in or can I collect some excellence from outside? But you. The difference was that, you know, how large we are, the assumptions that everybody understands what we're doing and where we're going is on board at the same time. That doesn't happen. That was not possible to happen at that scale. You know, so I really had to make sure that it seeps down. And also, again, Interactive, which we had turned into Song, is but one part of broader Accenture. So we are a sibling in this family. We couldn't be a. It didn't stop or start at me. You know, we are a contributing member of Accenture and a bigger one now than it's ever been. But also we relied on them. We were very fortunate to be on their shoulders as well. Yeah. So as I said, there was sort of the understanding that, yes, I'm the CEO, but I'm one of four CEOs of service groups. Again, you know, I mean, so that's. I just. That was new for me and also because I was also included on the broader leadership team of Julia's team xcode. You know, I'm expected to. And I wanted to contribute about the broader company strategy. Well, it wasn't just my, my day to day wasn't just song, so there's a lot there. There's so much to unpack. And, you know, joking wise, I would, I'd always describe it as people would say, you know, tell us about your day at. In, you know, an average day. I always said, well, you could divide it into thirds, you know, a third, I have no idea what everyone's talking about. You know, a third, I'm trying to, you know, I, I, I know what they're talking about, but I'm unhappy that we're talking about it. Yeah. And a third, I'm ecstatic. We're talking about it. You know what I mean? The first third, I just had to work out which bucket that fell in the stuff that, that I thought was we could do better and we should, you know, streamline and get rid of. You know what I mean? And, or does it fall in that this is incredible, inspiring, the opportunities that are in front of us and the skill sets and capabilities. Never seen that before.

Host (6:01)

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I want to come back to that in a little bit, but you said something a moment ago that I think is really worth, like, unpacking a little bit. You talked about the sheer scale made it hard to ensure that everybody was on the same page, that everybody knew how what they did contributed to. What'd you learn about how to instill more, even if it remains imperfect, how to instill more of that, how to ensure more people understand their role and contribution to the whole.

David Droga (6:35)

It's this many parts of that clarity is obviously one of the most important things. And a mission that's believable and transferable, but also a mission and a structure that allows people to see how they fit into it or see how they can contribute from whatever position they are in. Whether you're an analyst or you're a very senior md whether you speak Russian or you speak Portuguese or you speak English or whatever, like, they could see that a, that the direction of travel is of interest to them personally in their careers. They can translate the, that what I'm saying, or, sorry, my leadership team is saying. So when they sitting opposite their clients or when they're sitting opposite their teams, that that translates as well and makes sense. It's not fortune cookies or just, you know, word salads. Yeah. But the main thing that unites people beyond everything, beyond the hardships behind, beyond the competition, beyond the, as I said, the headwinds and da, da, da. Is, is it a believable mission? Now, it might be hard, and I'VE always subscribed to hard missions if they're believable. But is it something that they believe? And if they believe it, then they want to be part of it. And, and also does the. Do the leaders that we put in place, are they up for it as much as everyone else? You know, are their expectations? And I've always thought that, you know, and that's one thing that I've. Even when I was just running my own company, I was such a big believer that you don't want to just have your stars over here and everyone else is in the salt mine over here. You mean everybody at every stage doesn't mean that there aren't really hard, difficult things to be done. But at any stage, everyone should feel that they can contribute at some point of view. Now you still get judged on the merit and your output and all those sort of things, but everyone should feel they have a chance to contribute. So as I said, at that level. And also, it wasn't just status quo that I stepped into. You know, I, again, with the great, A lot of great people and with the blessing of Julie and the Exco as well, you know, they allowed me to change the name was the easy part. Change the entire operating model. Well, you think about in the beginning when I stepped in, we had nine different silos. Again, I don't want to make it sound like I inherited something bad. It was fantastic momentum, some great people, but it was designed for a different era at not the speed that we had to move at and what our clients are demanding and also with what's going on in the world with AI and technology. So they had nine different capabilities that on paper made sense but didn't integrate. So I streamlined that down to 4. Had to work out how to embed creativity throughout that at a broader level, how to make it, you know, to make sure that data and AI are genuinely infused in that because we have to lead in that. And we thankfully. And then there was 40 different acquisitions that I had to try and sift through and work out what place they have and from a leadership perspective to a capability perspective. So we had to do that. And I sort of probably rotated. I'm not saying this is always the way, but in my leadership team, my op model, probably 85% of the. The leaders knew. And that doesn't mean knew just from outside. There was some exceptional talent that I brought in or that I brought up from Interactive or stole from other parts of Accenture. And Diddy's, a great example, you know, had fantastic meetings with her and I thought she should be a part of Song, you know. So I sort of put experts in more than generalists. And when.

Host (10:06)

What's that say about your philosophy? Are you a believer in more specialization than generalization?

David Droga (10:12)

I think it depends on what the role is. But I think if you're going to be world class and leading in design, then someone has to be someone who is a product design person. If you are going to be world class and leading in data or AI, you have to have someone that understands. Now around me I still had some fabulous and fantastic journalists and operators need that 100%. But to lead practices and people with skill sets and that's a difference maker for us. I'll always pick someone who is a product person or skilled in that discipline.

Host (10:48)

You said two things that I'm wondering if you can offer some advice to everybody in our audience but maybe in particular the CEOs. Right. Because there aren't a lot of companies with the scale of even your slice huge slice of this enormous enterprise. But you talked about when you talked about kind of going from I think it was nine silos to four integrated areas of operation. One of my observations over the last few years is that org design is what get. Nothing gets more in the way of growth and value creation than org design.

David Droga (11:21)

Sure.

Host (11:22)

Right. What advice, what tips do you have on how to think about how to ensure integration which kind of ties back to everybody knowing what the they're doing and being on the same page but from a systems perspective.

David Droga (11:35)

Okay. Like I designed around what makes sense to the client and what we offer not to what makes sense internally. First. My job isn't to placate and make people feel comfortable because it just. It was how do we show up and operate in the real world. And if we're going to be the world's leader in, you know, customer. What are our clients buying? What do they need from us? Design our four practices around the entire journey of the customer. That's it.

Host (12:05)

It's simple and you know, and of one it's right. What gets in the way of simplicity because there's so much again as an observer, there's across enterprise. There's so much unnecessary. Well, I think it's it.

David Droga (12:22)

Okay. There is unnecessary complexity because it's almost like a tax of growth. Sometimes people just. Things just get bigger and bigger and it's harder to unwind this or there's. And muscle memory is a very, very, very, very big barrier in organizations. Yeah. You mean people have a fondness for muscle memory thinking it's nostalgic and all that sort of stuff.

Host (12:43)

It's the status quo.

David Droga (12:44)

Yeah. And. But it's like, well, this is what we've done in the past. Fine, if the world hasn't changed in 50 years, you don't need to change, you just need to do a better job of the current existing, you know, template. But the world is changing every day. Every single climate that's coming to us is wide eyed, nervous and excited about the changes that they're facing and the speed at which the world.

Host (13:05)

I'm guessing some of them are not wide eyed.

David Droga (13:07)

I think some, well, the wide eyed may be terror, maybe terror or it may be enthusiastic. So, you know, we can't, we can't be the world's leaders in, you know, helping our clients navigate the future if we don't understand the future, if we can't be honest with us. You know, there's, as Nick says, you know, which is a great thing in our principles. Nick Law. You know, first, you know, before you offer advice to other people about how to design themselves, first redesign yourself. And also part of it was there was. So I didn't want to change things for the sake of it. As I said, I didn't come in thinking, oh, under new hanging the banner, under new management, I'm doing. I looked at it through. We can do things that no one else can do. Our clients, business models have changed or the barriers that they've gotten, the opportunities have changed. The whole media landscape's going away. AI is, I mean it's changing everything as well. We've got to show up in a way. And it was like inheriting a spectacular hand that I just had to put in the right order because as I said, the capabilities which is again going back to why did I sell to Accenture in the first place? The way they are that, you know, they carry themselves in the boardroom, their influence in the boardroom, their capabilities and real understanding of technology.

Host (14:24)

And you're talking about the client's boardroom there, right?

David Droga (14:26)

Or yeah. Yes, yeah. Because you know, now they've always been much more about being the world leaders in the back office behind the, behind the firewall and Song customer. We were about all about the front of the firewall and particularly AI. Right. If anything it's the technology that is all about front office, all about in the customer's hands.

Host (14:47)

I've read a bit about why you chose Accenture and I'm kind of wondering, I never even thought about it till this moment. What did Julie see that had her interested in acquiring you.

David Droga (14:59)

I can't speak for her, but from conversation we'd had interactive had great momentum. They saw that were a very well run business that had influence as a creative business. And I think she saw that writing on the wall that a lot of clients were asking for. You know, one of the pieces that jigsaw that they didn't have, as I said, because they had all these other components, they had most chairs around the C suite, but they didn't really have, you know, this what's now song type of CMOs and see, you know, and chief growth officers and all those sort of ones. And now let's see us as well. And I think she thought that we were a crown jewel in that world of marketing and advertising. And it's funny, I mean one thing that's for all the things that were said about Droga5 in the press and all the awards and all the accolades that we've had. One of the things that actually and there's no celebration for this but mattered and may be proudest was when they did due diligence on, on Droga 5. And now as I said, having been on the other side of that where we, you know, we bought like 15 companies under, you know, when I was CEO at the song and I've seen the due diligence, I've seen it go well, I've seen it go where we've decided not to do it. The reports, it's so thorough. And I remember being told by the people who run all VNA that Droga5 is one of the best run companies that I've seen from a profitability zero debt retention, all that like that made me as a smartly creative go with the helps of great other people and.

Host (16:38)

A very handsome one.

David Droga (16:41)

But no, that maybe is like it was a little bit in my head, I was like, you know, in your face. Of course, of course we're run well as well. We weren't just a celebrated creative place. We, you know, we had great margins, great retention, all that. That made me really happy as well. Which I think for her because sometimes I play the card a little bit. I have in the past where you know, sometimes when we stand up in front of general manager, you know, the GMC or the I'm like, well, I'm the creative. And she'd always go, you can't play that card. Even though you are the creative, you're creative through and through. She's like, you're. You also understand business, you know, you know, which I'm, I Do only because I figured what she doesn't know is I only understood business as a. Because I had to, because I wanted to protect creative.

Host (17:26)

You had a reason for it. So I want to talk about creative and creativity. I can't believe we've, we've. It's taken us this long to get there. But, but what you, what she was saying to you is, is really interesting to me because a few years ago, a very storied legendary marketer who I'm going to keep anonymous gave a speech in canon that was titled Creativity in Service Growth. And I kind of wondered what the else is it in service of, like at least here. Right. And. And I'm wondering if, if you think that kind of. The creatives in our broad ecosystem really understand that creativity is in service of the business in which your clients operate, in which one's clients operate. I don't want to just make it. And then I want to talk a bit about where you see the creative landscape in its current state and maybe its future state. And I got some questions.

David Droga (18:35)

Well, there's so many in that. Again, there's a lot to unpack in that one as well. I mean, I'll just put a pin in the Julie thing. What she also did say, which was again, the thing that made me think, oh, she gets it. Not about me specifically, but it was that she wanted someone like me. When she said, you know, we need someone who is. I don't, I don't just need another great operator. Yeah, I need someone who has vision and ambition. Do you know what I mean? And that's why I think that segues into the creative thing. Like, you know, a lot of creative people have a lot of ambition, a lot of humanity, a lot of unreasonable belief in getting things done. But at the same time, the flip of that coin to your other question is, do you think most creatives understands that it's tethered to business and growth? No, I don't. And that's not that they're not capable of it. I don't think they were ever asked to think about that. And that's a dis. You know, I think that's the structure of what the industry has asked of them and how they just celebrated. Most aren't celebrated to be crave leaders, I mean, to be business leaders. And most of them weren't given the opportunity. And that was. I've always said this. When I took this role, no matter how hard it was, I also didn't want to screw it up because I didn't want to be the. This creative process child of. He was given the biggest opportunity as a creative and he proved all the naysayers wrong that a creative can't run a business. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And I think that I. The best creative leaders out there, not every creative person, you know, some of them should be kept in rooms just drawing and ideating that. But a lot of creatures are big thinkers, expansive thinkers, given the opportunity, business thinkers and explained. They understand that, you know, it's about growth, it's about relevance, it's about accountability. All these incredible things. I think they're fantastic. I think it's the era where the more creative should be these leaders.

Host (20:27)

I don't.

David Droga (20:28)

I don't think we need operational. That's important in this climate. That's not going to be the difference.

Host (20:37)

So talk about this climate. What's going to be the difference?

David Droga (20:39)

Okay, again, because we're moving it, we're zigzagging. It's not a linear straight line. I think a lot of industries and corporations have banked on certainty of certain stuff, forecast uncertainty and if we've seen anything, the disruption of what's happening with AI and politics and everything. Right. Everything is nothing is a pipe dream. Yeah. Certainly doesn't exist. Yeah. And I think that, you know, one thing that I think is very good about creative thinkers is they could they. They able to pivot, iterate, improvise, change. They're used to sort of actually, you know, in fractured thinking more than linear thinking. I think that's why creative leaders are really necessary now. There needs to be this responsibility and the girth, as I said, of understanding business and operations around that. But you can always bring that in. You've also got to be able to think around problems. You've also got to, as I said, improvise to that point or pivot or have a belief in lateral leaps and ways to do things. Because everything is up for grabs now. And particularly even this is a segue into AI. AI is eviscerating and taking over most tasks and most jobs will disappear. Right.

Host (21:56)

Well, you stick a pin in that because I want to spend. Okay, we'll come back, spend some time on that. But I want to ask you a really tactical question first that I think will lead y. So I think it was Ad Age did a. A great piece. I actually, I think he basically wrote it, you know, 37 pieces of work that you loved over your 37 years. It was okay. It was an okay portfolio.

David Droga (22:20)

Thank you. Sorry. Yeah, I was actually annoyed. It wasn't 15. I mean, I haven't been in it 50 years, but I was like, anyway, go on.

Host (22:26)

I did I time I was it. Oh, one was print of the 37 pieces you chose one. One was a print and out of home execution. So I, I took the average runtime of the 36 pieces that were left and it was two minutes, basically two and a half minutes. Average run time for those 36 pieces, a few of which were quite a bit longer. And I'm wondering what it says about the time it takes to tell a story that you love and the time it takes to sell a story to human beings that really lands and what you think the implications of the AI world are on the time we have to tell stories.

David Droga (23:14)

Well, there's no question in all facets of life that our attention span has shrunk, you know, and I say that out of concern. Look at my 12 year old daughter thinking, you know, does she have the attention span to sit in a movie theater and watch a full film? Or is she growing up wanting to just get to the good bit on an iPad?

Host (23:32)

I read, I read. The average adult checks her phone 344 times a day. I am not the average adult. And without exaggeration, probably 600 times.

David Droga (23:42)

No matter how many times you check sets, he's not going to call you.

Host (23:46)

A man can dreams.

David Droga (23:48)

But you know, I, I think there's, you know, you look at what's going on now with, you know, I was talking to my wife literally about this last night that now that, you know, they're commissioning series, I can't remember what the name of them were called, where they're 90 seconds, 90 second episodes.

Host (24:06)

Yeah, it's, it's the Quibi Part 2 that Lloyd Braun and.

David Droga (24:10)

Yeah, but it's actually starting to get some traction. But before in the day, Quibi didn't get that traction.

Host (24:14)

No, it, that's the part two part.

David Droga (24:16)

Yeah, but that tells you a lot about, it's, as I said, it's horrendous and, but we're also guilty of it as well. So, you know, I can sit on my perch going, oh, what's going on? What happened to sitting down reading a good book or listening to a whole album or, you know, watching a full movie in its entirety. But then I do, I get caught up in Instagram reels where I'm watching things, you know, I mean, 6 second, 10 second pieces of content now. I do. And I, but I also think that I'm fortunate that I can bookend between both. I can sit for hours and read a book all day or I can watch a real. But I worry that the next gen is sort of not going to have the capability to flex there. You know what I mean?

Host (25:03)

My 20 year old daughter, she doesn't read books, she listens to them and when she listens to them she's doing something else. And yeah, so that's terrifying.

David Droga (25:13)

But also there's. But the other flip side of me is thinking if she's actually retaining what's in the book and she's actually able to multitask, I'm like maybe we are the 1.0 model and she's the 2.0 model or whatever the version is where, you know, where they're a better human being than I am. One of the things. And I don't know why I was never intimidated by new formats and new times and all that. I was never. Even though of course I loved telling 60 second, 90 second commercials or. But I, I was as excited during, you know, the start of the digital age where it was about building experiences and websites and that that was as exciting for me as I had no nostalgia for like oh, I love the pack. I, I never have never sat around saying I remember the good old days, it was billboards, six words on a headline or the good old days was a 30. I just. Any canvas to me is a canvas is a canvas. So any chance to, to create something makes a connection or does the fulfills the brief of the client to build this thing, that's all I cared about. So I've always been. And maybe that was, I don't know why that happened. Maybe because I was the, the fifth son in a family where everything I got was inherited and was improvised so I had to make light with whatever I inherited to turn that into something wonderful. But I've always been excited by technology and that so if someone said to me from this day forth the only way to get through to X audiences is this experiential thing with three second things. And part of me would be like wow, that's going to be difficult. But then I would embrace it thinking, all right, I'm going to make that the best we possibly can. And I just think that I've always tried to ride the wave of opportunity more than sit on my board thinking I wish it was back like it was. Because I've said this before, like success is a nostalgic. We are.

Host (27:06)

And I like that, I like that. Not that you've asked because I will note you didn't. My favorite piece of work I And I. I think it's one of my favorite pieces of work ever in the pantheon of work. And having said that, I'm probably going to Salvatore. Salvatore Monday.

David Droga (27:26)

Oh, yeah, yeah. I love that. And that was long. That's long.

Host (27:29)

It's very long. And I'm gonna drop it a link to it in the show notes.

David Droga (27:35)

It's.

Host (27:35)

It's just. To me, first of all, it's stunning. Second of all, if you don't cry or tear up, you're. You should go see someone. But what I love so much about it, to me, it's the epitome of what we try and do, which is to make people feel something. And you made people feel something by showing people feeling something. You never showed. Did you show the work? We never showed the work. It was all. It was all close ups. That one woman, the first woman.

David Droga (28:12)

Oh, my God. But the thing is, for me, like, I love that piece very much because a. I love art. So it was a love letter to art as much as it was to. And also we were improvising in the sense that the. The potential of painting that ended up selling was never gonna be as great as the thing. And also, as I said it was. I mean, the cleverness of what we did was to give it the title the Last Da Vinci. So that sort of gave the rest the scarcity thing. But I've said from day one, from when I was 18 in this industry to now, I'm all bullshit aside. I'm a very, very emotional person. And things that I've been involved in, or whether I credit myself or I approved or pushed it, it's trying to unearth and capture the emotional connection between this opportunity and this consumer and connect them and, you know, they find truth in that connection. And sometimes it can be irreverence and absurdity and sometimes it can be beautiful. But I. And that one. There's nothing more beautiful than real life. And that was a great example. Like they were all real people, all real emotions. You know, I mean, that was just one of the. And that obviously juxtaposed with that great track. So, you know, you try and amplify that thing, but we don't try and get in the way of it. I've never tried to get in the way of it. But I'm glad you love that because that's sort of. That's one of those under the radar ones that. But I love it. I love it. I do.

Host (29:33)

I remember seeing it when it was for the auction. I mean, I saw it in situ.

David Droga (29:39)

Yeah.

Host (29:40)

Perfect segue to now pull the pin out of AI and talk about how you think it might, you know, asking it a crystal ball change creativity, storytelling, narrative. Will it make brands more or less important? What happens to emotional connection in a world where bots are marketing to bots?

David Droga (30:05)

Well, okay, I'll get to the last one because that sort of is a bigger one where bots are talking to bots and you take the humanity out of it. But no matter what the technology is or the tool or how you can use it and what's created the storytelling, there's still going to be a need for emotional connection separate to the bots to bots thing. And I think that AI already is to be completely disruptive, which is what it already is. AI just has to be better than average. And it already is better than average. Okay? As far as creating images, design websites, writing scripts, writing. It's better than average. So it's already taken that out of. And if I haven't said this to you before, you know, one of my things I've said which I believe is, you know, everyone that's up in arms that it's going to replace the copywriters and the filmmakers and all that sort of stuff. I'm like, it's not going to replace everybody. It's going to replace that, that average middle, right? And because the averageness of architecture, advertising, music, journalism, pick a, pick a thing. It's written by something far more pervasive than artificial intelligence. Written by research and compromise, right? That's what. So it's not like we need to protect the average shit that's out there now. Yeah, now what? Now. But then what we have to do is understand that what we do, where humanity is the very best of us and people is how we take this. These tools that are unlike anything that's ever happened before because they're not blunt tools. As I said, they can think and they can create and they can reference and all that so stuff. But how we use them and what we. Everyone's averages are going to come up to much, much better. So the baseline. There'll be no such thing as just terrible anymore because everything base will be raised to best practices. But once every best practice is good, then everything becomes bland again. So it's like the, it moves up. It's like Tetris. Do you know what I mean? It gets it like that and it goes down like that. So the, the base is going to get. And then what people do with these tools is gonna. Because yes, you, you can make F the F1 movie for probably cost $300 million. You can probably make that for a 50 million now. You know what I mean? Or you can probably. But how the filmmakers and how the creators, what they do with it and because AI is basically designed to avoid error, isn't it? That's what it is. It's designed to. They don't want bugs in it. They want everything to be perfect.

Host (32:37)

It's intended to. Yet design.

David Droga (32:39)

Yeah, but it's intended. But the worst thing that can happen in an AI algorithm or whatever code is that there's errors and inconsistencies for obvious reasons. We don't want that. Right? We don't want rote. But almost every great leap in innovation, creative music, is embracing error, isn't it? Isn't that sort of personal context, misinterpretation, reinterpretation. These are sort of the pillars and the icebreakers of great storytelling, great writers, great poets, great musicians, great architects. You know what I mean?

Host (33:14)

So you remind me of a conversation I was having. I was head of strategy. I was talking to our chief creative officer when I was at Endeavor, when you and I were colleagues. Once removed.

David Droga (33:24)

Yes.

Host (33:25)

I said, oh, I'm sorry, I miss. He said something. I answered. And then I realized, oh, I misinterpreted what he said. He's like, no, no, no, keep going. Because the misinterpretation may get us to the right answer in a machine world, right? Like, how do you. I've been in the machine world for a long time, but like, I'm almost wondering. You talked earlier about embedding creativity. How do you embed? How do you embed. Can you systematize misinterpretation? Which is really.

David Droga (33:51)

Well, people will try and do that, of course. Because people are like, oh, I get it. What you're saying is we should throw in a curveball every. Blah, blah, blah, and there'll be that. And maybe that'll be one thing that does happen. People are like. I mean, it's. I always joke this weird reference to make. I always had this running joke that, you know all those dating sites like match.com I don't even know if they're still around or whatever. Those things, they're all just, I assume, never been on one, honestly. But it's like, sure, David, don't tell. No, but they're, They're. They remind me of AI, Right? They're all designed so people put in their wants and needs and all their perfect partner, what it should be. And you're right, probably 80% of the time or maybe 50% of the time, I don't know. All the things that they think they want and all the perfect algorithms match people up and it doesn't work just because I always thought that they should have a counter site to that called nemesis.com, which is you get matched with someone that you shouldn't be with. And it turns out there'd probably be some great relationships come out of that because it's like not what you want and not what you think. It's not linear. Like, I think life isn't precise. There are wonderful. We need certainty and things to be linear and predictable for us to feel comfortable. But so many great things that happen in the world are not. And as long as we can keep the flame alive of that. So, yes, there's going to be massive disruption and most jobs are going to go away and most jobs are going to change, but there'll be new jobs that emerge and new ways to tell these stories and create these connections. And, you know, I think that that's normal and that's. Now we just have to get used to moving at a different pace. And everyone's very nervous now because we don't have time to wean our way into this change, you know, and I do, you know, I do worry that kids are not going to be able to learn to write or kids are not going to be able to understand this or attention spans and stuff. But then I'm sure our parents said about us, oh, my God, our kids don't know how to research anything anymore. We used to go to the library and have to take out books and highlight them now. Now they've got this thing called Google that you go and it just delivers. There's always that sort of innovation. And then from that comes. So there'll be people who work out what that new version of it is. Because at the moment, we're still very much caught up in the. It's doing what we're familiar with, faster and cheaper and.

Host (36:06)

Right. We live in an algorithmic world and by and large, the algorithm just assumes that what worked before is going to work again. Therefore, and I absolutely fucking lutely love what you said, which is to be completely disruptive, you just need to be better than average. That will be quoted a lot.

David Droga (36:21)

Without.

Host (36:21)

Attribution, by the way. I'll probably just take credit for it. We talk about how can a hundred times more work when marketing is already ubiquitous and ignored and avoided and we pay to avoid it. How could a hundred times more work be a good thing?

David Droga (36:39)

We can get a hundred times better output. And you can think about that in the context of medical research. There is no question. We started saying it was vaccines, but you know, with all. AI will be the thing that helps cure cancer. Yeah. You know what I mean? AI will be the thing that helps us discover new frontiers and does these things that we couldn't do. AI will probably help us solve climate change. So it doesn't mean that we suddenly have to sit in the lab 100 times, but it will create things that are more focused. And now that's fantastic for certain verticals, but as I said in the spirit of creativity into it. I think that's different.

Host (37:20)

Yeah.

David Droga (37:20)

You know what I mean?

Host (37:20)

Yeah. I actually I was, I was working with ChatGPT on. On something. We were, I downloaded a document I'd written and was asking for some. Some thoughts around it and it couldn't reference it and I was like, I was losing my mind at a certain point and I was like, what you're telling me is you can beat a grandmaster in chess, at chess, but you cannot reference this document. That's like two chats back. Right. If AI, and I think you're right, of course AI is going to help us solve cancer and help us solve climate change. Putting aside. Of course climate change is just a hoax. It's not even real. For AI to help us solve, there's a fill in the blank coming. For AI to help marketers and enterprises solve for the commoditization of marketing and the products and services they represent, it has to do what.

David Droga (38:17)

It'S still has to work out that the output hasn't changed is how do you add value to a customer's life? Like that's still the golden rule. Are you making their life easier, better, more informed, educated? Like is. Is whatever just whatever role you play in their lives, is it helping their lives?

Host (38:38)

Bots marketing to bots and the FA of brands and emotion, what's your thinking around all that?

David Droga (38:43)

Well, that is going to happen. Do you know what I mean? That terrifies me a little bit. And then when I get lazy, I think, oh, that'll be such an easy thing. When my bot is taking care of my DMV license renewal and it's arguing with, you know, my bank about, you know, whatever. So this part about your overdrafts or something. Whatever it is. Yeah. But so there's part of me that's like.

Host (39:04)

And again, by the way, we will start a GoFundMe for you.

David Droga (39:07)

Thank you, appreciate that very much. I need it But I think that, but again with everything, I think the bots will learn. The bots will take on. Again, this is just my opinion. I don't want to sound like I'm a complete authority. Will take on the personality and needs that you have. Yeah. So they will have a proxy personality and then the market is going to have to get to know your proxy personality. You know what I mean? Because not everything's going to be. This bot's going to be like I want this at $25 and I want this down at this speed. There's going to be emotional decisions in that bot as well. Do you know what I mean? And I think that the bot, if it is smart as they should be and as one sided on yourself, it will take on characteristics that it knows pleases its prompter. And you are, you're not a robot yourself. So it'll take it. So I just think there will still be hues of humanity. It sounds weird to be in there now for very functional dry things. Knock yourself out. Haggle, haggle, haggle. You know, sort this out, collate this. But you know, marketers are going to have to work out okay, if we all brands have the same ability to create bots with the same technology and the same speed of that, what differentiates us from that bot? So everything still comes down to going back to the averages. When everything's best practices. Nothing is what is going to be the difference. And then they'll probably be like we're going to go retro and we're going to have this thing called a human being. You know, a bag of flesh covered chemicals is going to interact with you once in a blue moon. Look at the rebound or the ricochet between. You know, we all have the technology now to never leave our homes or to order everything in there or not go in the office all the time and all this. You know. And that's not just a Covid thing, that's a tech thing. That's a behavior change thing. Has there ever been more demand for collective group experiences than there ever has been. Now experiential community concept like again, we ricochet. There's. There's an innate thing in us. Yeah. That has yet to be suppressed now the desire to have things easier and our lazy bone to make things that that's, that's there as well. And we spend 10 hours a day working to live. Of course in human. You know, people used to have to walk 20 miles to get water. So you know, we're designing technology to always take the work out of things that's never changed. It's happening now. Just faster pace to give us hopefully give us more time to spend the time doing things we want to be doing.

Host (41:58)

I don't need to go off on that tangent. Let me ask you a question. You talked about it earlier and you've talked about it in some of the since your announcement article articles I've read. And you talk about doing work only song can do. And what, what is that and why is that like what what what is somebody else truly not capable of that that song can do?

David Droga (42:24)

And what's.

Host (42:24)

What's that competitive advantage?

David Droga (42:26)

It's the sort of unification or the integration of what we do. As I was saying before about how I designed the, the model so it's more seamless because you know, humans don't think about things as in this is that moment, this is the commerce moment. This is the, this is the marketing moment. This is the transactional moment. This is the.

Host (42:45)

I had A.C. eggleston Bracey, who's the chief growth and Marketing officer at Unilever on the show and she said something I just absolutely love, which is consumers don't live in the funnel, they live in the moment.

David Droga (42:55)

Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like they're not thinking that. Right. But what we can do is I'm excited by is it creating whatever's the appropriate and right model or output for our clients, whether it be brief firework show or it's a something that stands the test of time like a lighthouse. We can do the creative, we can do the, the design, we can do the strategy, we can do the, the builds, we can do the sustain. We can do the running the models. I we can road test the, the business model. Like I, I want to be able to sometimes some of my favorite things that we're working on have done. I look at it and I sometimes as a sort of a parlor trick, I say to, to people, I'm like so tell me what this is. Is this a marketing idea? Is this a commerce idea? Is this a design idea? Is this a sustainability idea? Is this a new business growth idea? I'm like if you can't answer that question, but it's all of them that's the right idea. Not every client needs that. But there are times that's where the.

Host (43:51)

Things that I'm so I would have answered that. Putting aside the question is about an idea that I don't have. I would have said the answer to that question always has to be it's a commercial idea. Which makes it a business idea.

David Droga (44:05)

Which. Right.

Host (44:06)

And that everything else then is okay. What is. What is in service. Of course.

David Droga (44:10)

No, I agree, I agree. As I said. So I don't try and break it down into those labels. Right. Do you know what I mean? It's answering the challenge and it delivers it on behalf of the client and the customer. And I think that that's great. Now with the levers we have are all those different things and more.

Host (44:28)

Do you think AI will or. And the continued evolution of it will mitigate some of those competitive advantages?

David Droga (44:36)

I think it'll help us do all of that. But going back to the point, I think this, it's. There's still going to have to be people making decisions that's maybe not as many people that elevate that and road test that and understand whether it's right and relevant and, you know, all those attributes.

Host (44:55)

I, I was listening to Lenny Richitzki's podcast a few weeks ago and, and I can't remember the name of the guest, which is a shame because it's the guest I'm going to quote who kind of queried whether or not every job was going to become a prompt job. And by reference he said, does the CEO's job become some version of a prompt that's like, here's the business we're in. Optimize for shareholder value, stakeholder value, a margin of X. And it was.

David Droga (45:26)

Now every CEO is a prompter. If you're a real CEO, that's what.

Host (45:29)

You are doing right now, but you don't have somebody who can give you the answer back singularly and in two seconds.

David Droga (45:34)

No again. But as I said. But the starting point is that some, you know, the best leaders are prompters. They just had their tools were slower before. If I asked like, okay, we're going to redesign this model, or I'd like us to go after this person or I need to have intel about what's the size of this market opportunity here or thing. These are prompts that I'm putting into the system. So it's. The process is. The starting point is the same, but the execution of it is very different. And I think great CEOs have to be great prompters. You know, isn't that the way like, you know, when you're creating anything, it's, it's your starting point, your intention and.

Host (46:13)

Your, you know, clarity of objective and intention. Yeah.

David Droga (46:17)

Which is your mission, your objectives, your ambition, your lateralness, your tenacity and outrageousness and whatever. Like, they're all those Starting points. You know what I mean?

Host (46:29)

You're well on the record of saying, you know, the industry is under a lot of pressure. Right. I think we can all agree to that.

David Droga (46:36)

I think the agency model is broken and just ignore specific. Not the talent that resides within it, but the model is broken.

Host (46:44)

If you could offer from this broken model to what will better serve clients.

David Droga (46:53)

A much more holistic point of view where you're not trying to sell something that's already stocked up in the cupboard, you're selling solutions, you're not selling just capabilities, you know, and if you're really agnostic to that, then as I said, you're not trying to. It's not based on. We'll just say and do whatever you want in pursuit of your media dollars. Right. And we'll give away this pit for that bit. And then most of the holding companies, that's what they've done, they've gutted out the industry. This, you know, the, the essence of any, particularly in the business I've come through is, is, is that the ideas and the skill sets and you know, the thinking and the idea people, the solutions and that's being given away. Pursuit of media. Yeah. And also now clients don't value that part of it because they've been given it. So they're part and parcel of why.

Host (47:41)

We see so little differentiation, so much average work.

David Droga (47:44)

I mean it's the most self defined by the way, let's be honest. The media industry as it is now is going to be away, it'll be disappear. Okay. There'll be some wonderful, you know, very smart company will create an algorithm. It's much more transparent, much more effective, gives much more control to the clients. Yep. And they'll be like, why am I paying X here? Put it in a black box, don't really know the outcomes. You know what I mean? Why would you do that?

Host (48:16)

Well, actually, what's your answer to that question? Because a lot of these people are doing that. Why are they doing it?

David Droga (48:21)

Because they haven't got a. Either that it's relationship built or there's jazz hands going on or there isn't a clear declarative version yet. That's there. But the second it comes, it'll be seismic, it won't be gradual. Just be like a record scratcher.

Host (48:38)

Yeah, yeah. Can't come soon enough from my perspective.

David Droga (48:41)

But, and I don't say that with glee, wishing for the demise of the, the media companies and the whole.

Host (48:49)

Of course.

David Droga (48:49)

At all.

Host (48:49)

Not at all.

David Droga (48:50)

I'm just saying. But what the Biggest issue that faces is a CEO. I'll say this is one thing which is all businesses in any industry is the, the toggling between quarterly earnings and the future state of growth and where you're going to go. That is the biggest rub, the long.

Host (49:14)

And the short of it as it were.

David Droga (49:15)

Completely. Yeah, earnings are crucial and they are sort of like a temperature check of the company and you're held hostage by that because everyone wants to hit their numbers and everyone wants to chase growth but it will be innovative. But they're almost in not opposition of each other. But sometimes some of it can be a little bit of a push and pull because earnings are proof of discipline and your ability to operate a company and growth is proof of your ambition and your ability to innovate. So you can, you can have great earnings but have no future. You just spend your time focusing on the growth opportunities and you miss the day to day. Then you don't get that time because earnings are really the, they're the fuel for growth. So that's one of. Going back to your very first question. You know, what's the hardest part of probably you know I found being CEO of the scale is really managing and not being held hostage by either but being honorable and respectful to both opportunities. Not being blinded by the quarterly and earnings but really understand the necessity of that and being. But maybe that's as a creative person going back to the. Why more creators. Creators always have their eye on what could be and should be and the growth thing. So I always had had one foot in. Even when I was doing drug or fiber, you know, for whatever success we had at that time I was always more curious and inspired by what might be next and where we could go because I, you know what I mean? So that's, that was one of the biggest challenges I think.

Host (50:51)

I, I think it's, yeah it's, it's, it's. I think the biggest challenge facing global businesses and businesses globally and, and that relentless focus on today is getting in the way of tomorrow and next week.

David Droga (51:05)

So many examples and there's going to be more and more now where successful companies grew into irrelevance.

Host (51:16)

I'm giving a speech on it in two weeks on exactly that. They, they, they grow into irrelevance through commoditization. And by not not seeing where the.

David Droga (51:28)

World could, well not seeing the world, I mean you think of. I won't even name companies but you know how many companies did when the iPhone came out. It's maybe a long winded or a Road tried and tested analogy. But like, how many companies did the iPhone takeout in one launch? Different industries that were doing exceptionally well and all their shareholders were probably happy. And those companies didn't think possibly that that thing could do that and just.

Host (51:57)

Wiped out, including intel, you know, when, when they decided not to be the chip that fueled it. And the, the far more lay example or, or pedestrian example rather that I use is like, you know, Flickr could have been YouTube.

David Droga (52:13)

Oh, it should have been crazy. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, you know, the good thing is Intel's gonna, you know, it make its way back, but you've got the, you know, you think there was the guy, the garb, you know, the movie camera, the film cameras, the, you know, the garments of the world.

Host (52:30)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Droga (52:31)

I mean, just all these things. You're like, what?

Host (52:33)

But it's, it's that old, old line about the railroad barons at the turn of the 20th century in America who thought they were in the railroad business, not the transportation business.

David Droga (52:43)

Yeah.

Host (52:44)

And remembering not just, you know, it's the job to be done and you know, what you versus what you sell and all that. Speaking of sell lots of pieces on your brilliant work. Any one or two pieces that you look like. I can't believe I didn't sell that. I can't believe that idea didn't come to life. It was a game changer.

David Droga (53:09)

Gosh, there's probably so many of those.

Host (53:15)

Any that I can.

David Droga (53:18)

There's definitely some that, you know, you at the time, they would have been such proof points of just what I think we can do. And there's some I'm still pushing for. So I, you know, I'm so relentless that even when something is not going to happen, I still don't believe it's not going to happen. I'd love to try and do something, make sure we do something better, but.

Host (53:39)

Oh, I pitched ideas when I was on the agency side that I'm still pitching to those same companies because I was like, this is a game changer for you. I got no vested interest, except it's a game changer.

David Droga (53:48)

There's some ideas that, that I probably pitched 10 years ago that were not probably right, but it's more, more appropriate now because also technology is able to do it. Like I even go back to this is crazy. Before I started Droga5, in the period between being Pubis CCO, Global CCO and starting Groga5, I did a. Started a startup called Honey Shed.

Host (54:10)

You probably don't remember that's Actually, I do remember it because that's when I met you. You came into caa.

David Droga (54:15)

Yeah.

Host (54:16)

And we were talking about Honey Shed and I remember it very well now.

David Droga (54:21)

It failed for so many reasons. But the, the actual idea which was just have people who are experts in something, sneaker heads or girls who like, you know, different shaped butts or selling jeans or gamers talking about it was basically what influencers are today. Yes. You know what I mean? Now it was.

Host (54:42)

If I remember, it was kind of pitched as MTV meets qvc.

David Droga (54:46)

And actually when I look at.

Host (54:47)

By the way, thanks for remembering that we met. That doesn't hurt at all.

David Droga (54:53)

Actually, do I? Sorry. I was in flow. In a flow. But the. Now it failed because a. We filmed content in a studio in la. So what people can do on an iPhone now for 10 months. It was 30 grand. Yeah. We also had built a site that was clunky because we weren't ready, but way too soon, way too expensive execution. But the fundamental idea in my head, that's one that I've thought if I just tried to do that five years later. Yeah, yeah. You know, we would be doing this interview from a 500 foot yacht in the Mediterranean now.

Host (55:32)

Wouldn't have been mine, however, which really pisses me off.

David Droga (55:35)

Yeah, that's her. Oh, you would have been on. Yeah, I would, I wouldn't let you on the yacht. I would just have you in a dinghy on the side.

Host (55:41)

I'm all right with that. But no.

David Droga (55:43)

So that's. That's one of the things. So I am getting this more than anything, but it was one of those things. So I. Because the logic in that time was people, if it's relevant to them, people won't care that they know they're being sold ads. That is everything.

Host (55:58)

We don't mind being seduced, but we don't like being sold. Irrelevant.

David Droga (56:04)

You waste my time with something I don't need or you patronize me or you treat me like an idiot or it's not of value to me. You're wasting my time. If you talk to me in a way that is relevant, compelling, necessary, timely. You got my attention.

Host (56:19)

Timely is everything.

David Droga (56:19)

And also. And don't do it in a way that's patchwork. But it's. So that's the thing, you know, there's definitely things that I've. But I've never been as shy of trying to explore new things and try things and. But then the, the basic need hasn't. You know, maybe it's changed clothing or aged or whatever. But the sort of who I am and how.

Host (56:37)

You're ageless, dude, you look fantastic.

David Droga (56:40)

But how I think hasn't changed, actually, to be honest, from the schmucky guy and it was as a copywriter 18 to starting to work. You know, all that.

Host (56:48)

Okay, well. Well, then is there some codification to how you think? Like what. What if what you. How you think hasn't changed? Like, do you have kind of. And I'm asking you to make the, you know, well worn, implicit explicit. And that's hard, but do you have like to get from here to what matters? To get from the question to the answer based on the way you look at the world. What are the first couple of steps?

David Droga (57:15)

Start at the end. What I mean by that is whatever you're creating. This is crude. Think about why the person on the receiving and. Or people on the receiving end should give a shit about this and why they would give a. About it. And however that manifests itself, then you can go back to that. But if you start at the end, like why and how, then you'll probably get there in a more environment.

Host (57:37)

I've stolen a line from you that I've used repeatedly. That's the give a you. When I was at Endeavor, you were at Endeavor and it rebranded from WME IMG to and go back to Endeavor. You were on stage with Ari and Patrick at the time. And I don't remember if you used a Venn diagram or if I've just adapted it to one now. But you're like, it all comes down to why am I going to give a shit about this? I was like, it is such a simple articulation of what we're doing.

David Droga (58:10)

Well, it actually goes back to the very first thing you asked me is like, you know, how I think about things, which is that care thing. You know, that's a sweeter way of saying the give a shit thing. But as I said for the. It's not lost on me again, being in this business that I've been in my entire career, even though it's morphed in this, the scale has changed and the sort of. The levers have increased. I've never taken for granted that we are paid to create something that is trying to connect with people or a person. And I always thought creativity and thinking and respect and all that was the greatest tools to do that. I never made any assumptions and I always found it quite incredible. And as I said, as I've grown up in the. And the world has opened up to me, I've Only been grateful for this sort of the ways we can do it.

Host (59:02)

So you're not walking out the doors here, but you are and you are keeping this very nice office but you're stepping away from the operational. As you think about whatever you. The many things you do next are. Where will you find a source of productive intimidation? Are you looking for it again or you.

David Droga (59:27)

Definitely. I mean I'm not even though I'm stepping out of this role and sort of as a semi retirement. But I'm very happy about this vice chair role because it allows me to contribute in different ways. You know, I'm not a sit on. Jokes aside, sit on a boat or you know, sit on a beach. I'm just, you know, type of person. I love taking moments of holidays and spend time with my family stuff. But I'm a thinker and I'm a builder and so I will definitely be find ways to utilize that and that will be, you know, to. I've made investments in other companies, I'm advising other people. You know, for as long as I'm in this role, I'm going to sort of hopefully do what I can do to mentor and sort of make sure that, you know, I contribute. But yeah, I'm definitely always going to be wanting to build and help and. And it'll be creatively based. It won't be marketing and it won't be, you know, I've sort of. I've achieved everything I wanted to do in that world. Doesn't mean everything to achieve. But yeah, that's why I'm excited for the future to take some time and all that sort of stuff.

Host (60:31)

So I get the sense of droga too. Is not likely to happen. No, I mean, you know, and by droga too, I mean you and me.

David Droga (60:39)

Yeah, no, exactly. Well, look, I. I'm not sure if I ever worked for a. Anybody else again. Do you know what I mean?

Host (60:51)

I know you're not planning to work for anyone else again, but if you had to run a company, is there any company out there that you would.

David Droga (60:59)

In a pipe dream type of thing? Like if I. If there's only one job that I would take. CEO Disney. That I would do.

Host (61:07)

Why?

David Droga (61:08)

Because it's the biggest storytelling create a company in the world. The most important. The world needs them more now than they've ever needed them. Why? Because they are. They bring meaning and joy and value to people's lives and that they do it at a scale that no one else has.

Host (61:31)

And the world needs meaning and joy and value more than it ever has. Completely.

David Droga (61:36)

But that's. I've said that before. I think I've said that for 30 years. They were always, you know, my favorite company, so. But I think something like that, particularly because I get nervous with them, you know, with what's. Not just them, but, you know, with what AI is doing for.

Host (61:46)

I was going to ask. Yeah.

David Droga (61:47)

You know, it's going to devour a lot of companies and, you know, we'll see what happens.

Host (61:53)

Well, I don't have. I thought about bringing spirits with me, but I didn't because, by the way, the Whole Foods in Hudson Yards doesn't sell wine. I looked at and there are no liquor stores around here. I really did think about it, but.

David Droga (62:09)

It'S the thought that counts. And it's also cheaper.

Host (62:11)

I also. I even look for Foster's Beer. I was going to bring you, you know, something else.

David Droga (62:16)

For the record, no Australians drink Foster's Beer.

Host (62:20)

Oh, I thought you were Kiwi. Just kidding. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I kind of lost my train of thought, but. Oh, yeah, that's it. Spirits, I raise a proverbial glass to you. To. Next. And to the stories you'll keep telling.

David Droga (62:39)

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Host (62:41)

That's really.

David Droga (62:41)

I've enjoyed it. I enjoy our conversations.

Host (62:43)

Likewise. Likewise. And, oh, were you going to say something else nice about me?

David Droga (62:47)

I think. Well, I. I will, though, actually, now that you've asked me to. I will. Now that you've twisted my. No, no, you look, I get. I get interviewed a lot. Do you know what I mean? And, you know, a lot of times questions are quite formulaic. I really appreciate the fact you asked meaningful questions. And also you have an interest in trying to find and trying to mine out of the stuff. What. What I mean, because a lot of times people don't do that.

Host (63:10)

I appreciate that. And to our audience, we appreciate you. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. Still kind of is weird to me that people watch podcasts, but whatever, who am I to judge that is? Give us those five stars, if only for David, as a goodbye present. Don't forget to contribute to the GoFundMe. Just kidding. And if you're inclined to leave a review, please do, because that's how people find the show. See you next time.