The one with Ally Financial’s Chief Marketing and PR Officer Andrea Brimmer about the c-suite’s lack of understanding of marketing’s complexity.

Summary

Summary of "The CEO’s Guide to Marketing" Episode Featuring Andrea Brimmer

Podcast Title: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing
Host: Seth Matlins, Managing Director of the Forbes CMO Network
Guest: Andrea Brimmer, Chief Marketing and PR Officer at Ally Financial
Release Date: January 29, 2025
Episode Focus: Exploring the C-suite’s limited understanding of marketing’s complexity with Andrea Brimmer

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of The CEO’s Guide to Marketing, host Seth Matlins engages in a candid conversation with Andrea Brimmer, the Chief Marketing and PR Officer at Ally Financial. With nearly two decades at Ally and a decade as its CMO, Brimmer brings a wealth of experience in integrated marketing, brand transformation, and consumer engagement. The discussion centers on the misconceptions held by the C-suite regarding the depth and intricacies of modern marketing.

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Challenging the CMO Tenure Narrative

Andrea Brimmer begins by addressing a pervasive misconception stemming from the Spencer Stewart CMO tenure survey, which suggested that CMOs have the shortest tenure in the C-suite. She critiques the survey’s methodology, highlighting its lack of context and representation:

“...it just looked. It didn't hold up to scrutiny.” [00:06-03:07]

Brimmer emphasizes that many CMOs are promoted within their roles rather than being ousted, and credits Seth Matlins for helping to correct this flawed narrative:

“You were really the first person to point that out, at least to me.” [03:07-03:17]

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The True Value of Marketing

The conversation shifts to redefining marketing's role within an organization. Brimmer asserts that marketing is not merely an expense but a crucial driver of accretive value:

“Marketing can be the single biggest driver of growth for a company if done the right way...” [05:52-06:07]

She further elaborates on the importance of branding, describing it as the most precious asset a company possesses:

“I think a brand is the most precious asset a company has.” [06:13-07:09]

Misconceptions in the C-suite

Brimmer discusses the lack of understanding within the C-suite about marketing’s complexity. She uses the analogy of baking a cake to illustrate how marketing elements are interdependent:

“Marketing's like a cake. You can't bake a cake without flour...” [11:24-12:16]

This metaphor underscores the C-suite's often simplistic view of marketing, leading to misguided decisions, such as cutting marketing budgets without understanding the long-term repercussions.

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The Challenges of Being a CMO

Highlighting the volatile nature of the CMO role, Brimmer identifies the relentless pace of change and the expectation to be perpetually forward-thinking as primary challenges:

“The hardest part about being a CMO is the relentless change of the pace of change.” [07:35-08:02]

She also touches on the double-edged sword of being seen as the cultural leader within the company, which can foster both respect and disdain among peers.

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Structural Hindrances to Effective Marketing

Brimmer points out structural issues within organizations that impede effective marketing, such as hierarchical decision-making processes and the lack of autonomy for marketers:

“Do marketers truly have the right to seek input and then ultimately decide not to take it?” [29:10-29:29]

She advocates for streamlined processes that allow swift responses to cultural shifts and market opportunities, emphasizing the need for marketing to have a decisive voice in strategic decisions.

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Emotional Connection in Financial Services

Discussing Ally Financial’s approach, Brimmer explains how emotional connections can decommoditize a traditionally low-engagement category like financial services:

“We've leaned into things that matter to people and connected on that deep emotional level.” [40:34-42:21]

She highlights initiatives like TM Studios, which focuses on empathetic learning and rapid prototype innovation to address real-world financial struggles, thereby fostering genuine consumer relationships.

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Measuring Real-World Impact vs. Traditional KPIs

Brimmer advocates for a balanced approach to measuring marketing success, combining traditional KPIs with intuitive, real-world impact assessments:

“I use golden gut moments so that that becomes an acceptable phrase within the organization.” [44:34-49:49]

She shares anecdotes illustrating how real-world feedback, such as recognition from loyal customers and impactful moments at events, validate marketing efforts beyond numerical metrics.

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Bringing the C-suite Along the Marketing Journey

To bridge the understanding gap, Brimmer emphasizes the importance of involving C-suite members in marketing experiences:

“Take them to events, take them to a women's basketball game. Have the commissioner of the WNBA send them an email...” [47:54-49:49]

By immersing executives in the tangible impacts of marketing initiatives, she fosters appreciation and alignment within the leadership team.

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Conclusion

Andrea Brimmer concludes by reinforcing the critical role of marketing in driving company growth and the necessity of educating the C-suite about its complexities. Her approach combines data-driven insights with passionate advocacy, ensuring that marketing is recognized not just as an expense, but as a fundamental value generator. Seth Matlins acknowledges the profound impact of Brimmer’s strategies, highlighting the episode's focus on bridging the organizational divide to foster sustainable growth.

“...the responsibility of the marketer, of the CMO to bring their internal constituents along on the journey is everything.” [50:14-50:42]

Andrea Brimmer’s insights offer a masterclass in elevating the C-suite’s marketing IQ, underscoring the indispensable role of marketing in today’s dynamic business landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• “Marketing can be the single biggest driver of growth for a company if done the right way...” – Andrea Brimmer [05:52-06:07]
• “I think a brand is the most precious asset a company has.” – Andrea Brimmer [06:13-07:09]
• “Marketing's like a cake. You can't bake a cake without flour...” – Andrea Brimmer [11:24-12:16]
• “The hardest part about being a CMO is the relentless change of the pace of change.” – Andrea Brimmer [07:35-08:02]
• “We've leaned into things that matter to people and connected on that deep emotional level.” – Andrea Brimmer [40:34-42:21]
• “I use golden gut moments so that that becomes an acceptable phrase within the organization.” – Andrea Brimmer [44:34-49:49]
• “...the responsibility of the marketer, of the CMO to bring their internal constituents along on the journey is everything.” – Andrea Brimmer [50:14-50:42]

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This episode offers invaluable perspectives for CEOs, CFOs, and marketing professionals seeking to deepen their understanding of marketing’s strategic importance and navigate the complexities of aligning it with overall business objectives.

Transcript

[Andrea Bremer]

Foreign.

[Seth Matlins]

Welcome to Forbes, the CEO's guide to marketing. I am your host, Seth Matlins, and today I am sitting here with Andrea Bremer. And this is going to be a little awkward for you, but I'm just going to read your bio because it's too much to remember. Andrea Bremer is the Chief Marketing and PR Officer of Ally Financial, a position, by the way, if any of this comes as news to you, just let me know. A position she's held for 10 years and where she's responsible for leading all aspects of the company's integrated marketing and brand transformation, driving unprecedented growth and disruptive consumer engagement. Bremer actually joined ally almost 20. Yeah, almost 20 years ago in 2006, where she spearheaded the creation and launch of the ally brand in 2009. Since becoming CMO, she has established Ally as a different kind of financial services company, which we'll get into in a little bit. Bremer is. And by the way, for those wondering why I'm calling her Brimmer, it's just what I call her. Andrea is widely recognized as one of the country's most innovative and effective marketing leader. And she's known for being both disruptive and culturally astute. Among so many other accolades that she has achieved and acquired over the years, she and her team have led Ally to being named on Fast Companies, Brands that Matter list three times in a row. And in June of last year, amongst again many other accolades, she was named to the Forbes CMO hall of Fame, recognizing what would have been her fifth time on our world's most influential CMOS list. I first met you when I got to Forbes, which is almost exactly three years ago, but it was a few months later that we kind of got a bit connected because you reached out to me. Spencer Stewart had just put out their latest CMO tenure survey and you kind of reached out to me with a what the fuck is this? And and really pointed me to actually looking at what was behind the data for that survey. And the fact of the matter was in 2000, what is it, 20, 22? There wasn't a ton actually behind that data. It just looked. It didn't hold up to scrutiny. Right. It was a sky is kind of overview of CMO has the shortest tenure in the C suite and the narrative that had been created by it. And by the way, the Spencer Stewart survey was not alone in this was CMOs were failing. They were getting fired. And again, you know, the sky is falling Chicken Little, but with a little bit of scrutiny. So it was only Looking at the top 100 advertisers, which is hardly a representative data set, it was four of whom didn't even have CMO titles. So it zeroed out from there, and.

[Andrea Bremer]

A lot of them had actually gotten promoted into bigger jobs.

[Seth Matlins]

Exactly what it fundamentally lacked. And. And to their credit, Spencer Stewart has since corrected it. What it lacked was context.

[Andrea Bremer]

Right.

[Seth Matlins]

You know, the CMO who left job A to go to CMO job B, who got promoted within their jobs couple had retired. So it lacked context. And, you know, you. You were really the first person to point that out, at least to me. I had kind of accepted it all at face value. And. And you've really, with that, helped to begin to correct a narrative. And so thanks for that and thanks for being with us.

[Andrea Bremer]

Well, I knew immediately when I met you that you were the kind of person that would take up the mantle on that one. And honestly, there were a lot of people in kind of in our space that not only bought into the narrative, but they perpetuated it. Yeah, and it's always made me mental because it's. It's so untrue. And I mean, here we are marketers, and we can't even market our own profession.

[Seth Matlins]

Yes. Yeah.

[Andrea Bremer]

Which, you know, the irony in that was just. Was just amazing to me. And so I was just happy that you, you know, that you took it and kind of ran with it.

[Seth Matlins]

All credit to you.

[Andrea Bremer]

I think we've changed the conversation quite a bit around it.

[Seth Matlins]

I think we absolutely have. Have. And again, all credit to you for it, though you still see the continuation, the perpetuation of that false narrative. So it will take a village to become aware of it. And again, credit to Spencer Stewart for. For having contextualized.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah, they've done a really nice job.

[Seth Matlins]

They did. They heard it and they responded in kind. All right. You know, one of the things you just mentioned is, you know, we don't. We as marketers don't do a particularly good job of marketing, and there's a large element of that. That's the thesis for the show, the reason why we created this. So with that, let's get into kind of our rapid fire session and, you know, fill in the blank for me on a bunch of questions. I'm coming at you right now. Okay.

[Andrea Bremer]

I never prepare for podcasts, but I actually prepared for this part.

[Seth Matlins]

I don't know if I should be flattered or dismayed, but we'll. We'll find out. All right. Marketing is.

[Andrea Bremer]

I think marketing is the most significant driver of a creative value For a company, if done right.

[Seth Matlins]

Okay. And then so digging into that. What's a creative value for a company?

[Andrea Bremer]

I think a creative value is.

[Seth Matlins]

Oh, I'm sorry, did you say accretive? Yeah. Accretive.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Okay. All right, audience. That's acc. Not a space. Creative.

[Andrea Bremer]

Exactly. Accretive value. Look, marketing can be the single biggest driver of growth for a company if done the right way and if collectively across the company, the faith is placed in it and the investment is made in it.

[Seth Matlins]

I love that. And we're definitely circling back to that. Okay. If that's what marketing is, a brand is.

[Andrea Bremer]

I think a brand is the most precious asset a company has.

[Seth Matlins]

Why do you think it's not considered an asset on the balance sheet?

[Andrea Bremer]

And that is actually, as we kind of go down in the. If I could wave the magic wand, it's because people think about marketing as an expense. They don't think about it as a revenue driver. And I think that that has been, you know, too many people in the financial community. Just look at it in terms of accounting versus thinking about incrementality of the value of a brand. And the brand is the single most precious asset. I mean, once. Once a brand is tarnished, a good brand is. There's no coming back. Very rarely are you coming back from a highly tarnished brand. And once you have a tarnished brand, you lose value. And look at how many brands have built these incredible ethos around the brand. And they can charge a premium for everything.

[Seth Matlins]

Right. Brand's role in price elasticity and margin seems not to be understood. I don't want to say it all very well by your C. Not your C Suite colleagues, but by the C Suite broadly, which, given their focus on accounting, seems curious. And we're going to come back to that, too. So you might have just touched on it, but what's the hardest part of being a cmo?

[Andrea Bremer]

I think the hardest part about being a CMO is the relentless change of the pace of change. It's just. It's just coming at you all the time. And you have to stay current. You have to stay in front of it. You're expected to be perfect when it comes to being able to anticipate and know about change. And it's a lot to keep up with.

[Seth Matlins]

Given that there is no decision that a chief executive makes that comes with perfect data. Why do you think there is that expectation that their cmo, in fact, be perfect?

[Andrea Bremer]

I think that oftentimes the C Suite perceives that the CMO is the single biggest culture carrier for the company. And they depend on the CMO to have the most current and available answers for everything that's going on with the consumer and culture even I think oftentimes with the internal culture of the company. And they expect that because the vast proportion of the rest of the C suite isn't wired that way. And then I think as cmos it's this, it's this picture of us that's been painted and we feel like we have to live up to that.

[Seth Matlins]

Well, if you were to put that picture as you see it, the one that's been painted versus the one that necessarily is, what would you be put on the wall? What's that picture?

[Andrea Bremer]

I think the entirety of the C suite expects that the CMO is automatically going to be the one that is the hippest, closest to culture, most forward thinking person in the C suite. And that's a lot to have to sustain all the time.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Andrea Bremer]

It's also the double edged sword because it's also the reason why a lot of people in the C Suite I think have disdain oftentimes towards cmos.

[Seth Matlins]

That's interesting. And your use of the word disdain is super interesting. All right. I always hijack this rapid fire construct. All right. The biggest tensions, and you've touched on some of this, the biggest tensions between a CMO and her seat suite colleagues.

[Andrea Bremer]

Are, I think it's, it is the, the lack of understanding around the complexity of marketing. I believe that, that, you know, the C suite fundamentally thinks that marketing's pretty easy. You do a couple of ad like objects, put them out in the world and that's all there is to it. And the vast proportion of C suite is clueless about the breadth and the depth of data, the complexity of the consumer, the complexity of the media environment, the complex of how technology intersects, the way that consumers interact with brands, why.

[Seth Matlins]

They do and don't buy, exactly how.

[Andrea Bremer]

Hard it is to be continually optimizing the competitive nature and you know, and that you just can't pull out certain elements of marketing and it's going to be okay that everything is constructed with purpose and intentionality.

[Seth Matlins]

I want, I want, I'm going to ask you to stick a pin in that because we're going to focus on just that in a little bit. I wonder to what extent like the false narrative about CMO tenure that we talked about a minute ago, to what extent is, is that absence of understanding, that misperception, the fault of, and, and fault looks backwards. So let's look forward. The responsibility of the CMO to change moving forward. Because, you know, if you're not managing expectations up and down, what are you doing?

[Andrea Bremer]

I do think that, look, the vast proportion of people that are in my peer group that I talk with and interact with, and you spend a lot of time with all those same people. They're, they're brilliant. Not only brilliant marketers, but they're brilliant business executives. And I think they all try to all the time. I do think that oftentimes when it comes to listening to marketers, ears close across the C suite. And no matter how many times you explain, I always use the analogy that marketing's like a cake. You can't bake a cake without flour. Cake's not going to taste good without frosting, it's not going to taste good without sugar. Yet, you know, so many people in the C suite are like, well, just cut this part or cut this part, cut this part.

[Seth Matlins]

They don't understand the interrelated dependencies.

[Andrea Bremer]

Exactly.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Andrea Bremer]

Why do you have to do this and this? Just do one. And regardless of how many times you explain it, they either don't listen, don't care, or don't believe you. And I don't want to say that ubiquitously. That's not. But I think broadly. Broadly and more acutely for marketers than for any other C suite position. And so I don't think it's, it's a lack of marketers trying to explain or bring along or do the work. I just think for whatever reason, there continues to be this continuous tension around believing that marketers are, are knowledgeable about their craft.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah, yeah. It's like if I can't understand it, it's not understandable. A little self awareness goes a long way. All right, you did touch on this, but I'm going to ask you to say it again. If you could wave a magic wand and address one C suite misconception about marketers and marketing, what would it be?

[Andrea Bremer]

That marketing is not a discretionary expense and that it's actually a driver of value that requires consistent investment. It's very frustrating that, and I think all marketers would agree with this, that as soon as there needs to be expense tightening, the first place everybody looks is marketing. And it's not thought about in terms of, wow, what will happen if I slow this machine down and how much is it going to cost me in the long run to start it back up?

[Seth Matlins]

If we think at a macro level, my data is, I think, updated as of the end of 24. So I don't know what, which probably means it was 23 data over a four year period. I think on a global basis, marketing budgets were down 30% in aggregate. There is no equivalent measure that shows how much growth was lost as a consequence of that so called saving. And it seems to me, you know, I can't remember who said it, but you cannot cut your way to growth.

[Andrea Bremer]

Right.

[Seth Matlins]

You know, you may be able to cut your way to short term profitability, but you sacrifice so much in the long term. It, it again, it just baffles me and I wonder if that's just a systemic issue that is going to be really hard to overcome, which is this emphasis on this day, this week, this month, this quarter that is as much on the street. Right. To whom the CEO and the board are ultimately responsible.

[Andrea Bremer]

Look, I get the fact that there's incredible pressure for CEO and for CFOs and we're the beneficiaries of good quarterly report outs as well as on the other side of it feeling the pain when there's an expense cut. And the two biggest expenses usually in a company are marketing and technology. So they're really the only places and people. Right. And nobody wants to cut people. And so of course you're going to go to the biggest ponds. The problem is, and technologists would tell you the same thing, the consistency of investment is what drives value and drives long term growth. We also know empirically in our data that acquiring a customer becomes more efficient over time the more you invest in marketing. And so it's this constant balance of patience versus short term results. Yeah. And I just think that that's the frustration, it's the rub. It will always be the rub. I don't see that ever changing.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah, I think that's fair.

[Andrea Bremer]

It's just the reality of the financial dynamics of the marketplace. But nonetheless it doesn't mean it's not frustrating.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. Or misunderstood. Misunderstood and. Or abused. All right, well, you just kind of brought up. I've got just two more questions here before kind of get into it. What do you think the hardest part of being a chief executive is?

[Andrea Bremer]

I think the intense level of never ending scrutiny. It's a thankless job. And I think more recently there's been a new layer of even context added to that scrutiny. With what happened to Brian Thompson, the CEO of UnitedHealth. And now so much vitriol being spewed towards CEOs. It's, it's pretty. It's become not only was it a really hard job, now it's kind of a scary job on top of that.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah, yeah. Baffling.

[Andrea Bremer]

Baffling is right.

[Seth Matlins]

Humanity. All right, last question. Awkward segue. That far more important reference. Brands and businesses grow when.

[Andrea Bremer]

I think brands and businesses grow when collectively across the company, you do things that matter. And to me, that's showing up in the moments that matter. That's investing in the things that matter. That's really taking your responsibility to be a brand that matters in the world really seriously. You mentioned the fast company brands that matter. That, that recognition to me is one of the most important ones that we can.

[Seth Matlins]

By the way, I. You should know I never cite accolades from outside of Forbes as I do this, but I understand both how important that was to you and the fact that three years running, it's an unusual recognition for a brand in your category.

[Andrea Bremer]

Exactly. The only financial services brand that's ever been recognized three times in a row. And so to me. Look, look. And the reason that it's so important to me is when I took this role as CMO 10 years ago, I had a really simple mandate for the team. It was be a brand that matters. That was our starting ground.

[Seth Matlins]

So I'm going to ask. I've asked you to stick pins in a few things. I'm going to add that to it because I want to talk in a little bit about the sacrifice that one has to make as a marketer, because there are a lot of things that matter to a lot of different folks. And so how do you figure out what matters most to those who will matter most, knowing that that is not a homogenous group. But. But before we get there, I want to go back to your almost 20 years with the company. And how many CEOs have you worked with? Just inside of. Of ally.

[Andrea Bremer]

I'm on five. Number five right now.

[Seth Matlins]

Number five.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. And. And if wrong, it's like three in the last 18 months.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah. Because JB retired and then we had an interim CEO, and now Michael is new into. Into his job since April. So. Yeah, three in the last 18 months.

[Seth Matlins]

Which. Which, you know, and of course, I. I think I failed to mention it. You know, you spent a couple of. A couple of years, more than a couple of years on the agency side of the business, too. 20 years. Where were you?

[Andrea Bremer]

Campbell Ewald.

[Seth Matlins]

Campbell Ewald.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

That brain doesn't exist anymore, does it, Soul?

[Andrea Bremer]

There's not much left.

[Seth Matlins]

No, no, it's sad.

[Andrea Bremer]

When I. When I left, there were. It was a massive regional agency. I think there were 1700 people. And it's just, I think, emblematic of how hard the agency world is these days?

[Seth Matlins]

Yes, the agency world is very hard. Probably both because of a business model that may not serve it or clients any longer, but probably many of the same reasons that we've been talking about today. And of course, fragmentation of media tension, blah, blah, blah. How many CFOs in that same period, give or take.

[Andrea Bremer]

I would also 5.

[Seth Matlins]

Quite unusual to as a CMO, to be a survivor through that kind of change. I mean like real talk, like not easy. Have there been times, is there a, a tale you can tell in it? It doesn't have to be at ally your experience. We never want it about the company that, that our. Our guest is. Is at right to protect, you know, ensure anonymity. But is there a moment when CEO, cfo, somebody in the C Suite, like, and you touched on this earlier, challenged your expertise in a way that left you like, what are you thinking?

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah, I mean, frequently across many, you know, CFOs as well as CEOs, as well as other C suite members. And I got to a point, you know, there was an unlock for me, when you get to a certain point in your career where you start to lead from the front and you lead without fear and you get to this realization of, if I get fired, I'll find another job. And when I finally got to that unlock, it made me brave enough to get to the point where when I get challenged, I pose the question back with respect, of course.

[Seth Matlins]

Is it. Sorry to interrupt, but is it. When you pose a question back with respect, do you think that you got respect with the initial question?

[Andrea Bremer]

You do. Okay, well, I don't think that I got respect with the initial question to answer your question. No, but so much questioning of, well, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? And I finally got to the point where I would stop the person and say, okay, let me ask you a question. Do I tell you when to go into the marketplace and do a stock repurchase? And the answer usually back is no. Why would you. You have no expertise in that. And it's the perfect way to say. Exactly.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. Point, counterpoint.

[Andrea Bremer]

You don't have any expertise in media planning and buying, so why are you telling me how to media plan and buy? And it's really, it's, it's a kind of a showstopper moment because it's the, you know, I, I've used it very effectively where I have seen a realization from whoever it is in the C Suite, say, you know, you're right. You're absolutely right. It's a fair point.

[Seth Matlins]

So it, I mean, first of all, good on you for that pushback. And it does seem to be, it seems, it clarifies so much very quickly. Why do you think there is an assumption that I, without expertise, without experience, without understanding, can in fact give you my opinion? In a space where all of those things are lacking, what gives them what they perceive to be the right to challenge the work of a cmo?

[Andrea Bremer]

Why, why is it I think about this all the time? I think it's because every human being consumes marketing and they believe that gives them the permission to be an expert. I watch tv, I watch streaming programs, I listen to digital audio. You know, it's the famous, in the agency world, the groan that every agency person always had when the client said, I showed this ad to my 12 year old, they didn't like it. Right. It's just, it's human nature and people think that they're intuitive about it, whereas it's not human nature to consume financial data. Nobody's going home and showing, you know, a spreadsheet to their family and saying, what do you think of this Excel spreadsheet? Yeah. And so they think it gives them permission to weigh in.

[Seth Matlins]

Okay, so the flip side, agreeing completely, for what that's worth. One of the things that I think is interesting and sits on the other side of that same coin is if they think that they have the right to weigh in on marketing because they've been marketed to, why do you think they're so quick, so many, to dismiss their own lived experience, which is to say the shoes on their feet, the clothes in their closets, the foods in their pantry, the things lining their bathroom sink, the car in their garage, the neighborhood they live in, the places they do and don't stay on vacation, they dismiss those, those brand decisions as if they happen by osmosis. And in fact, do not make your point earlier about the accretive value of brands. If, if they. So to bring my meandering together, if they think they can weigh in on marketing because they've been marketed to, why, why do you think they deny their own lived experience with brands?

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah, I mean, it's a really, it's a fascinating question. Right. And I do think it's a point that oftentimes I try and bring people back to, because once you point that out to them, it reframes their context. And so oftentimes, you know, I'll use the example of why do we all. The minute a new Apple iPhone comes out, that fundamentally does the Exact same thing as the last one. Doesn't matter. We all have to have it. And why is that? It's because Apple's done a masterful job of getting in our psyche that having the latest version of whatever piece of technology they put out fundamentally says something about you. And. And that's been an effective tool that I've actually been able to use in my own experience at Ally. That is a bit of an aha moment, particularly for peers and people across the organization. So I think it's just this journey of continually trying to bring people along. Honestly, for me, it's one of the reasons why I've stayed at Ally so long is because I do think that while there's been some bumps and bruises along the way, my peer set believes very deeply in the brand and the marketing and the manifestation of the brand in the world is a pride point. And they want to continue to see that be a pride point in the world. And that's the best thing a marketer can ask for.

[Seth Matlins]

Warren Buffett has this great quote, or at least it's been attributed to him, where I'll butcher it a bit, but he says, if I gave you $10,000 to never buy another Apple product in for the rest of your life, would you take it? And. And it's, you know.

[Andrea Bremer]

Right.

[Seth Matlins]

Kind of accretive. I also, you know, in. In a previous life when, when I was in Hollywood, we represented a computer company and they were coming out with a new laptop that was. This is 20 years ago, sleek and dynamic and powerful. In focus groups, they showed the case with different logos on it, the Apple logo, exact same product, commanded a 40% margin premium over their brand.

[Andrea Bremer]

You know, it's interesting. I had the exact same experience when I was in the agency side.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Andrea Bremer]

Ran the Chevrolet account for many years. And they used to do the same thing, show a vehicle unbadged and oh, what do you think it is? Oh, that's gotta be a BMW or a Cadillac or. And then they'd say, no, it's a Chevrolet. And it automatically changed the consumer's mind with regard to what they had just said about it. And so, you know, the power of a brand is. And that's why I talked about for good and nailed.

[Seth Matlins]

Remember when. To stick with automotive. Remember when Volkswagen, this is probably also about 20 years ago, came out with their $80,000 car, which was a great car. And people are like, yeah, I'm not driving an $80,000 Volkswagen.

[Andrea Bremer]

Right. Yeah. I mean, it's just. And that's why I say that if marketing is done right, it can be the single biggest driver of a creative value to a company. It's marketing, it's driving brand perception.

[Seth Matlins]

And maybe this is redundant, in which case, tell me, but what then are a couple of the things that get in the way structurally? Because I want to get into org structure in just a second, structurally and otherwise for that get in the way of marketing done right or marketing be able. Being able to do what's right.

[Andrea Bremer]

I think structurally, things that get in the way oftentimes can be one voices in the process.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Andrea Bremer]

Do marketers truly have the right to seek input and then ultimately decide not to take it?

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Andrea Bremer]

Or are they beholden to a process whereby they have to incorporate or can be overruled with regard to both investment capacity as well as creative decisioning? And I get the need to build consensus, but I also think at the end of the day, you have to be able to have the ability in an organization to say, you know, thank you, Mr. Or Mrs. Business partner, really appreciate the input. I get where you're coming from. But at the end of the day, I think this is the best decision. This is the direction I'm going to go into. And I think too many companies are not organized that way. So I think that's definitely one. I think speed to market can be the single biggest competitive advantage that companies can have.

[Seth Matlins]

And when you say speed to market. Speed to market with what?

[Andrea Bremer]

The ability to react to culture, the ability to react to something that is. Is happening in the moment. The ability to leapfrog the marketplace on an experience. And when you fundamentally have so many steps and layers built into a process that it slows you to the point of strangulation. I think structurally that's another huge issue. And I see it all the time. I mean, I just had a conversation with my team before the end of the year. They showed me the social media campaign. They were so worried about potential negativity. They were overthinking, like literally what every single person might have said about it. It took them four months to get a really simple little social media campaign out the door. And I said, we don't have four months in social. We missed it. We missed the moment. And so to me, those are the two single biggest structural and organizational killers of great marketing.

[Seth Matlins]

But what's implicit in the social media stor. The fear of fucking up.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Which probably overrides the fear of missing out on the moment, to your point. And, and brings me back, you know, to what you said earlier, which is this expectation that the CMO is perfect. Right. When nobody expects, I shouldn't say nobody to put a point on it. When no CEO or CFO expects any of their other investments or data to in fact be perfect. Just predictive at best. I'm going to, I'm going to read something and with apologies to the source because I do not remember, remember the source, but it kind of begins to put a fine point on where we've been, which is Overall, the CEOs, the largest companies in the world, have a significant impact on their marketing organizations. Their strategic direction, resource allocation, talent management and emphasis on customer centricity and innovation shape the marketing team's activities, performance and ability to achieve business objectives. I think you and I would say yes, yes, yes to that, right?

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Seth Matlins]

You are one of relatively few chief marketers who also has comms in their role. And actually I talked about on about this with Andrea Millard, who's both the CMO and CCO at Pinterest. Why do you think so few CMOs have kind of that, that rather that coalescence of narrative influence and input? Because I, I'll tell you the first time I had a client who was a CMO and comms didn't report to them. This is, you know, a lifetime ago. And I was like, I don't even understand that. I don't understand how comms and marketing are divorced. Why do you think so? Few organizations allow for that coalescence. And then I want to ask you about customer service.

[Andrea Bremer]

I think that historically comms was always its own specialty and its own standalone organization with a CCO that ran it. And I do think that in the distant past that the bifurcation of those two disciplines was probably more reasonable. Whereas I think the consumer has changed a lot over the course of the last 10 years. And I now think that marketing and comms are inextricably linked.

[Seth Matlins]

What consumer change makes sense?

[Andrea Bremer]

There is a blurring. It's media. It's the blurring of media. And everything is media now. Everything is media. This coffee cup that I have is media. This glasses case that I have is media.

[Seth Matlins]

Your sweater is media.

[Andrea Bremer]

My sweater is media. Right. Like everything. And I don't think that was the case case even 10 years ago. And I think many organizations have just not kept pace with the importance of bringing those two disciplines together. And I fundamentally believe that our brand growth at ally, a large part of it has been driven by my ability to have the remit for comms because we've used comms as such an important part of brand Extension.

[Seth Matlins]

Well, it's the simple math, or at least the simple math lesson of the whole is equal to the sum of its parts and if you divorce the parts, the sum will be less than. And do I remember from a conversation you and I had, I think a couple of years ago now that customer service is also in your remit.

[Andrea Bremer]

Customer service is currently. Is it within the business today. But what's within my remit now is the product innovation. And so we've got this off property facility called TM Studios. It's really cool. We do.

[Seth Matlins]

What's TM stand for?

[Andrea Bremer]

The Truth Mark. Which is what the. So our ally, a little known fact probably we call the truth mark and we always wanted the A to stand. We always felt that the category that we're in historically was not a truthful category. And the truth mark was to be a symbol to remind us that we always need to be transparent and honest and be financial services that actually serve people. And so TM Studios is an off property facility that we staff that uses empathetic learning to do rapid prototype innovation. And we send people off into the streets to talk to real world customers to say, tell us things you're struggling with financially, tell us with experiences that you're struggling with financially and the team comes back and very quickly will innovate around those learnings and bring things to market like our savings buckets, for instance. That was an output of TM Studios. So that sits now within my organization, which is awesome because I think we're closest to that, the closest to the consumer of anybody.

[Seth Matlins]

Well, you're supposed to be, right? Not you, but marketing is supposed to be. And, and one of the things, when I was the CMO at Live Nation, I fought to get customer service, at least customer response. Under marketing. It lived in tech because the tech system was the system. Right. It was a digital system which as I. This is one of very few moments when you absolutely have people's attention. Attention. Right. When they're coming to you with a problem, who is better suited to solving that problem? Marketing or technology? It's not a tech problem.

[Andrea Bremer]

Right.

[Seth Matlins]

It was a problem with ticket fees.

[Andrea Bremer]

Right, right.

[Seth Matlins]

It was a problem with, with, you know, similarly what there was perceived to be an absence of transparency. And, and I, I don't understand again why so many organizations, so many of the largest organizations in the world don't understand customer service. Service is a marketing function. Which brings me to my next question, which is inside of enterprise, broadly, not ally specifically, what are some of the, the kind of related interdependencies that, that you see structurally. Which is to say what other parts of the. Or if marketing is about creating and keeping and monetizing a customer over time, what are the other parts of the organization that. That influence the decision to buy or not that the marketer is at. I don't mean to be dismissive and say at the whims of is influenced by and yet has no accountability and held accountable too without any accountability for.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah, I think pricing is an area for sure. Right. Where oftentimes marketers aren't either consulted or have a voice in. I think even business decisions and technology investment. There are a number of things even within Ally that I would have prioritized in terms of a technology investment that to me would have allowed us to either be further along in our experience journey or have been able to leapfrog the category. Whereas those decisions are primarily not only influenced but made by the business leaders with very little input from the marketing organization. I think there's massive interdependencies on those two things because as I always talk about a brand, a brand is not marketing. A brand is the accumulation of all of the experiences that a consumer has with your company. And so the reality is marketers should be around the table for just about every decision. Ultimately they shouldn't have to make every one of them, but their voice should be sought in almost all of them.

[Seth Matlins]

I mean again, it won't shock you to know that I agree. You talked about the category a second ago and I want to ask you about how you different. You know, financial services is both highly emotional emotional category which is just talk about our relationship with our money, our wealth, our dreams, our homes, our retirement, etc. But it's also. Maybe I'm wrong. I assume a relatively low engagement category on a day to day basis. Not unlike insurance. Right.

[Andrea Bremer]

Very commoditized.

[Seth Matlins]

Very commoditized. So what's, what's the role of emotion, emotional connection in decommoditizing a commodity category and differentiating the business and driving growth?

[Andrea Bremer]

This was the exact thesis for the Li brand when we launched it, you know, 17 years ago that we were in a category that people were apathetic and they needed to be emotional. And the way that we've differentiated is by thinking about everything as human beings that we disliked about financial services and solving those pain points and continuing to solve those pain points and also to create emotion in an emotionless category. Think about the joy of money. I talk about that all the time. You know, the joy of money can manifest in a Lot of different ways.

[Seth Matlins]

For me, it's really the joy of having money. Right?

[Andrea Bremer]

It is. And it doesn't matter how much you have. You can have a little. A bit of money, but the joy of what you're able to do with it. And it's not materialistic in the, you know, sure, the material things sometimes are really nice. But for me, like, when I think about the joy of money, the joy of money to me is being able to have all of my kids home sitting around the table and being able to cook a great meal and open a nice bottle of wine and just have my family with me. Or being able to say to my.

[Seth Matlins]

Son, which is weird, given that your children are not able to drink legally.

[Andrea Bremer]

They are. They're all over 21. Or to be able to say to my son, you know what? You're going to graduate from vet school with no debt, and I want to do that for you. To me, that's the joy of money. And that's the remit of a bank in the world is, I said it earlier, financial services that truly serve. And I think that's how we've differentiated ourselves. And I talk about being that brand that matter. We've leaned into things that matter to people.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Andrea Bremer]

And we've cut. We've connected on that deep emotional level. And the minute that Ally stops connecting on that deep emotional level, to me, we become just like everybody else.

[Seth Matlins]

So given your success, why do you think everybody else hasn't followed in that?

[Andrea Bremer]

It's hard. It is hard. And banks are not. You know, we have kind of the standing joke with my team. Like, the first thing you're not. The first thing you're going to do in the morning when you get up and get on your Instagram feed is not go to your bank's page and see what's up. Right. I think that it is hard. People are scared of money. They're scared to talk about money. They have fearful relationships with money. It's a taboo subject. It's still a socially taboo subject. I'm not going to walk in here and say, hey, Seth, how much do you make? What did you spend last month?

[Seth Matlins]

Not enough.

[Andrea Bremer]

Plug for Seth. And so you have to create spaces whereby there's comfort in talking about it. And it's hard. It's hard to do. And you have to get really crafty. You have to scheme ways. And I just think a lot of banks don't want to. Don't want to go to there because it's socially difficult.

[Seth Matlins]

Right. Which is, of course, the Opportunity.

[Andrea Bremer]

It's a huge opportunity.

[Seth Matlins]

So as we get towards, towards the end of this, I want to talk about what matters most and how you know, what worked and what didn't. I was, I was reading something, something you said about. It was a program you guys had run at the end of, I think the middle of 24, and your quote was something about measuring for real world impact versus traditional KPI. Now, while that was specific to one program, talk about how you know what the impact of what you're doing is, what you measure for across different things and how you communicate that to your C suite colleagues. Because of course, that's an imperative to giving them the confidence that you know what the fuck you're doing.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I'm a very, I would define myself as a very golden gut cmo. I think one of the blessings, but I think almost a bigger curse that's occurred in marketing is the overabundance of measurement available to us right now. And I hate when you do an interview, you talk to somebody or you talk to somebody in a C suite position at another company and they say, oh, are you a performance marketer or a brand marketer? Yes.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah, exactly.

[Andrea Bremer]

It's again, the most artificial bifurcation that we have in, in this.

[Seth Matlins]

Marketing has become an industry, to your point of prefixes. There's a million prefixes. You know, performance marketing, brand marketing, digital marketing, it's all effing marketing. And it's just a question of knowing which lever to pick at, what time with what balance, which again is like, how do you know exactly.

[Andrea Bremer]

And so for me, I think you can just feel when something is working. And I'll give you a good example, what we've done in the world of women's sports. You can feel the impact that that's having in the world. You can read about the, you know, the trajectory that women's sports is on. You can, you know, the part that we played as one of the original brand architects in that you see it manifest in terms of opportunities that come across our desk all the time. First look at literally everything.

[Seth Matlins]

I sent you a couple myself.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah, I mean, literally first look, who's the first brand anybody thinks about when it's women's sports?

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah, it's Ally.

[Andrea Bremer]

I guarantee you it's Ally. But the pride point internally, the notes that I get from girl dads at Ally, emails that will that send to me. Thank you for what you and your team have done, the stance that you've taken and then, and the growth we've seen empirically in brand valuation in our KPIs. That's the measurement part of it. The gut part is when you literally give you a great example. I was at the NWSL championship game in Kansas City in November, and I was walking onto the field because we were doing the Rookie of the Year presentation for Croy Bethune. And I was walking down the stands, and this guy grabbed my arm and he said, hey, I know who you are, and I just wanted to thank you. And I said, for what? And he's like, for what you've done for women's sports. He's like, this stadium and this crowd wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Ally. Yeah, that's, to me, how you just know when you've done something from a marketing perspective is working. That's real world. World.

[Seth Matlins]

That is real world. And. And you all, and you in particular, deserve so much credit for literally using your money, in particular media dollars, to affect change.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

To drive equity and equality. But, you know, to the beginning of our conversation, so, you know, we're kind of coming full circle. CEO and cfo, you know, they think their gut is golden, but typically don't think their cmos gut is golden. How do you convince them that what you feel is right?

[Andrea Bremer]

I think that you have to demonstrate the passion. You have to show it every single minute. You have to bring them along and expose them to those moments. You have to. You have to expose them to those moments. One of the things that I really love is that our CEO, Michael Rhodes, shared with me that when he was interviewing at Ally, his wife had many people that actually said to her, oh, Ally, I love what they're doing in the women's sports space. And she shared that with him. And he was aware of it clearly, but that was an impetus for him. He said to me when he came in, he said, like, this is one thing that I'm not gonna mess with, because I felt the real world impact of it. Just going through the journey of interviewing for the CEO position at Ally, and then I think, you know, letting them experience it. Take them to events, take them to an NWSL championship, take them to a women's basketball game. Have, you know, the commissioner of the WNBA send them an email, have a player reach out to them, let them understand the importance of what it is that you're doing. And I'm using women's sports as an example, but to the extent that you can bring them along on the journey and let them feel the importance of it with you, I think underscores. The fact that and I use the word golden gut all the time. I will literally use it in my business presentations when we're going through KPIs where I'll say 2/3 measured by this, this, this and this and 1/3 measured by golden gut. And I use those words and I will cite either quotes or examples of golden gut moments so that that becomes an acceptable phrase within the organization.

[Seth Matlins]

I think it's a, it's a great place to end, which is, you know, for a series that is focused on bridging the divide that exists this too often and gets in the way of growth organizationally, the notion of, of and the responsibility. Right. Of the marketer, of the CMO to bring their internal constituents along on the journey is everything.

[Andrea Bremer]

Absolutely.

[Seth Matlins]

And if you bring them along on the journey and then as, as you talked about in the beginning, have the courage of conviction to tell them to shut the up when they don't know what they're talking about, more growth will come.

[Andrea Bremer]

Yeah, it's, I mean, look, it's in the best. Their best interest in the company's best.

[Seth Matlins]

Interest, which puts it in the best interest of the stakeholders and you know, and becomes a virtuous rather than a vicious cycle.

[Andrea Bremer]

Exactly.

[Seth Matlins]

Andrea Bremer, thank you so much. Not just for being with us, but thanks for that too. But for, for what you've done and are doing. We appreciate it.

[Andrea Bremer]

Thanks, Seth. Appreciate.