The one with Autodesk CMO Dara Treseder about the art and science of engaging audiences

Summary

Podcast Summary: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing – Featuring Autodesk CMO Dara Treseder

Podcast Information:

• Title: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing
• Host: Seth Matlins, Managing Director of the Forbes CMO Network
• Guest: Dara Treseder, Chief Marketing Officer at Autodesk
• Episode Title: The Art and Science of Engaging Audiences
• Release Date: November 21, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The CEO’s Guide to Marketing, host Seth Matlins engages in an insightful conversation with Dara Treseder, the Chief Marketing Officer at Autodesk. Dara brings a wealth of experience from her previous roles at Peloton, GE, Apple, and Goldman Sachs. Recently recognized by Forbes as the world's most influential CMO and the first Black inductee into the Forbes CMO Hall of Fame, Dara delves into the nuances of B2B versus B2C marketing, the importance of strategic alignment within the C-suite, and effective metrics for measuring marketing success.

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Opening Segment: The 10 Questions Challenge

Timestamp [00:47] – [08:33]

Seth begins by highlighting a common issue in the C-suite: the lack of marketing background among CEOs, with only 10% having such experience. He emphasizes the podcast's mission to elevate marketing literacy within the executive team to drive enterprise growth and stakeholder value.

Key Highlights:

• Dara's Answers to the 10 Questions:
  • Marketing Definition: “[04:03] 'Marketing is the art and science of engaging audiences.'”
  • Brand Definition: “[04:05] 'Brand is the embodiment of your values, promise, and reputation.'”
  • Hardest Part of Being a CMO: “[04:22] 'The misunderstood child of the C Suite.'”
  • Hardest Part of Being a CEO: “[04:54] 'Balancing the needs of very different stakeholders.'”
  • Misconception About Marketing: “[05:32] 'Marketing is more than just advertising and sales.'”
  • Brands Grow Through Innovation: “[07:06] 'You understand your customers' needs and effectively adapt to the changing times.'”
  • Brands Don't Grow When They Fail to Innovate: “[07:17] 'When you don't innovate, you don't respond to your customers' needs and ignore market trends.'”
  • Competitive Advantage: “[07:57] 'Offering unique recognized value.'”
  • Product, Service, and Brand Relationship: “[08:20] 'It's complementary.'”

Dara succinctly addresses each question, setting the stage for a deeper discussion on strategic marketing within B2B contexts.

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B2B vs. B2C Marketing Strategies

Timestamp [09:47] – [14:09]

Seth shifts the conversation to the core topic: the differences and similarities between B2B and B2C marketing. Dara emphasizes that the primary distinction lies in distribution channels.

Notable Quotes:

• Distribution Channels Difference: “[09:47] 'The biggest difference is your distribution channels are different.'”
• Multiplicity of Constituencies in B2B: “[11:16] 'There are multiple audiences and multiple segments that you have to reach out to.'”

Key Insights:

• Distribution Channels: In B2B, marketing strategies must account for partners, resellers, and a broader ecosystem, unlike the more direct approach in B2C.
• Audience Segmentation: B2B marketing requires targeting multiple stakeholders within an organization, each with unique needs and motivations.
• Relationship Depth: B2B relationships tend to be deeper and more integrated, given the higher stakes and longer sales cycles.

Dara underscores that despite these differences, both B2B and B2C marketing fundamentally aim to create and nurture meaningful relationships with their respective audiences.

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The Role of Relationships in Marketing

Timestamp [14:09] – [27:32]

The discussion pivots to the significance of relationships in marketing. Dara dispels the notion that B2B transactions are purely transactional, highlighting the emotional and relational aspects involved.

Notable Quotes:

• Emotional Investment in B2B: “[14:24] 'There is a lot of emotion that goes into it. No one wants to make a mistake.'”
• Importance of Recognized Value: “[15:59] 'Recognized value because you might think we're delivering value, but if your customer doesn't see it as value, then it's not value.'”

Key Insights:

• Mutual Benefits: Successful B2B relationships are built on delivering and recognizing value, ensuring that both parties benefit.
• Customer Passion: High-touch engagements, such as those Dara experienced at Peloton and Autodesk, foster strong brand loyalty and emotional connections.
• Strategic Brand Alignment: By positioning Autodesk as a versatile design and make platform, Dara ensures that brand messaging resonates across varied audiences, enhancing top-of-funnel awareness.

Dara illustrates how authentic relationships, grounded in trust and mutual value, are crucial for sustained growth and customer retention in both B2B and B2C contexts.

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Demand Creation and Capture in B2B Marketing

Timestamp [31:49] – [37:12]

Seth and Dara explore the complexities of demand creation and capture within extended sales cycles typical of B2B environments.

Notable Quotes:

• Account-Based Marketing: “[32:07] 'Account based marketing is essentially a discipline where we categorize different companies as accounts and have dedicated strategies for each.'”
• Cultivating Long-Term Relationships: “[34:25] 'How am I cultivating this relationship and how am I delivering value.'”

Key Insights:

• Account-Based Marketing (ABM): ABM is pivotal in B2B, allowing for tailored strategies that address the specific needs and outcomes of targeted accounts.
• Long Sales Cycles: B2B sales cycles can span years, necessitating continuous engagement and value delivery to nurture leads over extended periods.
• Market Dynamics: B2B marketers must adeptly navigate market uncertainties and leverage opportunities, such as AI advancements, to position their brands as trusted partners.

Dara emphasizes the importance of maintaining consistent, value-driven interactions throughout the lengthy B2B sales process to ensure that Autodesk remains a trusted and preferred partner.

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Measuring Marketing Success: Metrics and Accountability

Timestamp [38:18] – [43:09]

The conversation transitions to the critical topic of measuring marketing effectiveness, particularly in environments where results are not immediately visible.

Notable Quotes:

• Pipeline Focus: “[41:36] 'I'm focused a lot on pipeline, a lot on pipeline. What pipeline is marketing sourced?'”
• New Business as North Star: “[43:02] 'New business is the north star for marketing.'”

Key Insights:

• Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC): Understanding and accurately calculating CAC is fundamental, encompassing all costs associated with acquiring a customer.
• Marketing Customer Acquisition Cost (MCAC): This metric isolates marketing expenses from overall CAC, providing clearer insights into marketing efficiency.
• Pipeline Generation: Dara stresses the importance of tracking the pipeline generated by marketing activities and its conversion rates to ensure quality lead generation.
• Alignment with Sales: Effective measurement requires close collaboration with sales teams to ensure that marketing efforts translate into tangible business results.

Dara advocates for metrics that directly tie marketing activities to business outcomes, ensuring that marketing remains accountable for driving profitable, sustainable growth.

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Aligning the C-suite: Advice for CEOs and CFOs

Timestamp [43:10] – [52:37]

In the final segment, Dara offers strategic advice for CEOs and CFOs to better understand and support marketing initiatives within their organizations.

Notable Quotes:

• Listen to Your CMO: “[47:10] 'Listen to your CMO and be clear about what matters most to you.'”
• Courage, Conviction, Confidence: “[49:25] 'The CMO needs courage, conviction, and confidence to effectively engage with the CEO and CFO.'”

Key Insights:

• Alignment of Objectives: Ensuring that the CEO, CFO, and CMO are aligned on strategic priorities is crucial for cohesive execution and mutual success.
• Courage to Speak Truth: Effective CMOs must have the courage to communicate realistic expectations and challenges to the C-suite, fostering trust and transparency.
• Maintaining Conviction: A strong belief in marketing strategies and their alignment with business goals empowers CMOs to drive impactful initiatives.
• Building Confidence: Confidence in leadership enables CMOs to inspire their teams and effectively collaborate with other executives to achieve shared objectives.

Dara highlights that misalignment often stems from a lack of courage, conviction, and confidence within the marketing leadership. She urges CEOs and CFOs to actively engage with their CMOs, prioritize clear communication, and support marketing initiatives that drive meaningful business growth.

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Conclusion

Timestamp [52:37] – End

The episode wraps up with Seth thanking Dara for her valuable insights, reinforcing the podcast's mission to enhance C-suite marketing literacy. Dara’s experiences and strategic perspectives offer a comprehensive guide for executives aiming to harness the full potential of marketing in driving enterprise success.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

• “[04:03] 'Marketing is the art and science of engaging audiences.'” – Dara Treseder
• “[05:32] 'Marketing is more than just advertising and sales.'” – Dara Treseder
• “[43:02] 'New business is the north star for marketing.'” – Dara Treseder
• “[47:10] 'Listen to your CMO and be clear about what matters most to you.'” – Dara Treseder

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This episode provides a masterclass in understanding the strategic role of marketing within the C-suite, emphasizing the importance of relationship-building, strategic alignment, and effective measurement in driving sustainable business growth.

Transcript

[Seth Matlins]

Today's show has been brought to you by rokt. Today's customers are overwhelmed by choice, and when people are overwhelmed, they freeze and you miss out on the opportunity to drive more revenue. That's where Rokt R O K T steps in. Trusted by over 17,000 of the world's leading brands and advertisers, Rokt enables companies to unlock value by transforming the e commerce experience, helping drive incremental sales, and boosting profits up to 40%. ROKT makes each and every transaction relevant at the moment that matters most when customers are buying. Go to rokt.comforbes to learn more about Rokt where Relevance rules.

[Dara Tresidder]

Welcome to the.

[Seth Matlins]

CEO's Guide to Marketing. I'm Seth Matlins. I've spent my career in marketing both in and advising the C Suite, and I'm now the Managing Director of the Forbes CMO Network. So there's data showing that if I were taller, I'd have much better shot at becoming CEO of a major company. Which makes me wonder how different things might have been if my mom hadn't been 5:2. But more relevantly, there's also data showing that if I were the CEO of a major company, I'd be one of only 10% with any marketing background whatsoever. Fully 90% of the CEOs of the world's largest companies have none, which makes me wonder in turn how much more stakeholder value could be created in enterprise growth driven if more did and more understood how marketing works, how it doesn't, what to expect and what not to, and on what timeline, but because they don't have the experience and often don't understand despite sometimes thinking that they do. Too often, too many of today's CEOs and CFOs are suboptimal stewards of the resources given to CMOs in order to drive sustainable, profitable growth. Obviously this serves no one in no company, but it does create the opportunity and obligation to increase the C Suite's marketing literacy. Which brings me to this podcast in service of creating more growth and stakeholder value through a series of candid and connected conversations, we're hoping to raise the C Suite's marketing IQ and ensure CMOs are best positioned to do their jobs, which is to create and capture the demand that drives enterprise growth and value. With that, let's get into it. I've been thinking about how too many CEOs don't understand that there are fundamentally different types of CMOs, marketers and marketing, and I wanted to talk specifically about where B2B marketing is the same as and different than B2C marketing. So today I'm speaking with Dara Tresidder, the Chief Marketing Officer at Autodesk, which is a leading technology and software company. Dara oversees the worldwide marketing, brand communications, demand generation, e commerce, and education business teams for the company. Before Autodesk, Dara held marketing leadership positions at Peloton, ge, Apple, and Goldman Sachs. And among other accolades, she's been recognized by Forbes as the world's most influential CMO and became the first black person to be inducted into the Forbes CMO hall of Fame just this past year. Let's get into it.

[Dara Tresidder]

Welcome, Derek tresiter, to the CEO's guide to marketing. Thank you for being with us.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so thrilled to be here.

Yeah, I'm super excited that you are. You and I have known each other for a while now, and I know this is going to be a rich conversation, so I just want to get right into it. One of the segments that we always do on this podcast is we open with 10 questions, and when we ask our guests to answer it in five minutes or less. Right. Each of the questions is a fill in the blank. And what we're really interested in is. Is not just your answers, but kind of across the spectrum of things. How the answers differ from one guest to the next guest, and as well how they're the same. It's in those nuances and distinctions that we find richness. All right, we're going to start super big. You ready?

I'm ready.

Let's go.

Let's go. Marketing is the art and science of engaging audiences.

A brand is.

Brand is the embodiment of your values, promise, and reputation.

Interesting. Okay, third question. And of course, there's multiple types of CMOs, but from your perspective, the hardest part of being a CMO is being.

The misunderstood child of the C Suite. I think you have to balance strategic vision with excellent execution while staying on top of and ahead of a rapidly evolving environment. So, you know, I approve this message as a true middle child.

You know that I think the CMO has the hardest job in the C Suite, bar none. And the fact that the CMO is the misunderstood child in the C Suite is, of course, why we're doing this podcast. Okay, time for a little bit of empathy. The hardest part of being a CEO.

Is balancing the needs of very different stakeholders. You know, you've got shareholders, employees, customers, partners, your broader community. And I have so much respect for CEOs because it is difficult to balance sometimes what might be competing Interests.

It is that. All right, question number five. We're almost halfway through speaking across the marketing landscape, across the landscape of industry and not about Autodesk. If you could wave a magic wand and immediately address one C suite misunderstanding, misconception about marketing and marketers, what would it be?

Marketing is more than just advertising and sales. Right? Marketing has to do with developing meaningful relationships, delivering value to your customers, your audiences and your broader ecosystem. And I think that is the big misconception is that people think marketing is just advertising and sales.

So I'm going to take you off the clock for a second because I want to ask you a question about your answer because I completely agree with you. It's long past time that advertising stopped being proxy for marketing. Why do you think so many of our C suite colleagues again, generally still think it's advertising in a world where everything has changed so dramatically?

Yeah, you know, I think they still think it's advertising because many times when as CMOs, when we show up, we're talking about advertising. So you know, you are, at the end of the day, perception becomes reality. So when you spend the bulk of your time talking about advertising or when your C suite colleagues engage with you, all they engage with you on is the latest advertising campaign. You become reduced to that, you know, single part which is a part of marketing, but it is not the whole of marketing. So I think it's really important that as CMOs, we're engaging across the breadth of the capabilities of what marketing has to offer and we don't over index on advertising.

It's, it's a great point and we're actually going to get back to it. All right, question six. You're back on the clock. But by the way, you're doing great. Brands and businesses grow when you innovate.

You understand your customers needs and you effectively adapt to the changing times.

All right, the flip side of that question is brands and businesses don't grow.

When you don't innovate, you don't respond to your customers needs and you ignore market trends and the context that you're in.

Yeah, I guess, I guess those two questions could get a reconsideration as one is the inside out of the other. All right, question number eight. We're down to the last three. You're doing great on time. Competitive advantage. Speaking broadly, not just from an Autodesk perspective, competitive advantage comes from offering unique recognized value. Recognized value. Love that you measure as a CMO for true incrementality by doing what you.

Need to control experiments. So you have the direct impact of the marketing effort on the outcomes. So by controlling an experiment to get the direct marketing impact on the outcome.

Okay, I know this last question, where question 10 can be viewed through multiple lenses, but the relationship between product and service and brand is.

It's complementary. I think the relationship is complementary because this is when we actually provide a comprehensive solution for customers that they believe in.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, by the way, you did it with time to spare, so thank you for that. You came in in the or less category. So now let's move into kind of, you know, the bulk of our conversation, the time we're going to spend together. And, you know, part of why we wanted you to join us on this is you've got such a breadth and depth of. But specifically, we want to focus today's conversation on where and how as a B2B marketer, as a B2B CMO in this moment, which is not your only CMO role historically, it's different then and same as a B2CMO or D2CMO. And there's some fundamental differences. And I think perhaps for a C suite that doesn't come from marketing largely, some of those nuances, distinctions and very material differences may be lost. So I want to start pretty broad. I want to talk about strategy and strategic approach. And I want to ask you, Dara, how does the strategic approach to marketing in a B2B environment and context differ from that when you're marketing directly to a consumer and. Yeah, how's it differ?

I think the biggest difference is your distribution channels are different. So that's really the biggest difference when you think about how you're going to reach your target audiences and engage with them. When you're going direct to the customer, you're going direct, you don't necessarily have to think about those distribution channels and the broader ecosystem. However, in a B2B context, you have partners you have to work with. You might have resellers you might have. There are other folks you have to consider. And so you need to not only think about how what you're putting out there is going to impact that customer, but you have to think about the broader ecosystem. And I think that's the biggest difference is being able to kind of bring in a good understanding of the ecosystem and how you create value at each step of the way.

So what your answer reminds me of is a little bit of what you said about in the 10 questions, the hardest part of being a CEO. So inside, if I understand what you're saying correctly and Obviously you'll let me know if I don't. Inside. In a B2B context, the CMO has a multiplicity of constituencies as opposed to traditional, let's just call it a, you know, package. Good. Just to bring it to a common denominator who's still got to figure out different audience segments but doesn't have stakeholders outside of the end user, outside of the buyer. Is that right?

Yes, I think that that's exactly right. I think there are multiple audiences and multiple segments that you have to reach out to and you have to be thinking about how am I creating value at each step of the way. So just to give an example, right? If you're a B2B company and you're selling software, and maybe you're selling software through distributors or partners who also will want to integrate that software, right? Or who will want to have a whole business around the value add that they. You need to make sure that as you're marketing, you are marketing the software as a complete solution. But you also have to make sure that when those partners show up and they want to provide those value added services, their customers are going to understand why and recognize the value of that too. So that requires some nuance, that requires some thoughtfulness in terms of thinking about what does the audience truly need and how can I ensure that I'm able to deliver that at each step of the life cycle of the journey of the customer.

So we're going to get into the journey in a second because obviously the sales cycle, if you will, for especially enterprises like Autodesk, but for big B2B enterprises, it can be years. I was talking to Linda Buff, who has been the longtime CMO at ge, and she said their sales cycle, their journey could be 10 years, which is hard to measure. I can't even imagine, honestly, I have such a need for immediate gratification. But we'll get back to that, right? Because you actually point to something that I think is equally important, which is what is strategic development and strategic approach, irrespective of who you're selling, to have in common B2B. B2C. D2C. You know, if the job of marketing, and you offered a great definition earlier, is to make a customer is make things product service easier to buy, is to create and capture demand. What do all, irrespective of where you are, what does it have in common from your point of view and experience?

So I think what it has in common is at the end of the day, it's about creating value within the context of a Relationship. So it doesn't matter if it's the direct customer, if it's a partner, if it's a reseller, you need to be doing that. You need to be engaging that audience. And I think that is sometimes the misconception where people think, of course, in a B2C world or in a D2C world, I need to be making sure that I'm connecting with my customers, I'm developing relationships. Whereas in a B2B context, sometimes it is misunderstood because people think this is more transactional. And it couldn't be further from the truth. If you imagine if I ended up. If we went shopping and I bought, you know, a toothbrush and I got home and I didn't really like the toothbrush, what's the worst thing that could happen?

I'm sorry to interrupt, but could we go shopping? Because I'm really wrestling with my style these days, and yours is quite, quite on fire always. So we should make time to do that. Sorry. Keep going.

You are so sweet. We could go shopping. Okay, so if we're going shopping, we're not buying toothbrushes. So let's say we go shopping and we are picking up some really cute outfits, right? Let's say we get home, we try it on, we end up not liking it. What's the worst thing? We go return it. Maybe we give it to a friend or we donate it. In a business context, if we make a business case, ask for money to invest in a software. Software or machinery or whatever it is, that's millions of dollars, tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars, we end up making that purchase, and it does not work out. We could lose our jobs, our teams could lose their jobs. The company could be in a fundamentally problematic position because of a decision that we made. And so the idea that Somehow, you know, B2B. B2B exchanges are more transactional is a fallacy. It's actually very. There is a lot of emotion that goes into it. No one wants to make a mistake. People care. There is a reason that these things sometimes take a lot of time. They're very robust. They've got RFP processes. They've got procurement teams who are there to assist. So that is one of the things that actually, I think, makes me a better CMO in my current job is the fact that I have both B2B, B2C and also D2C experience, because I'm able to make sure that we are focusing on developing relationships. And don't forget that it really matters. Relationships matter. Even in a B2B contact.

It's a great segue to kind of this next part of our conversation. But what it reminds me of, you know, what you were just saying is I think you've heard me talk about this before because it's just one of my freaking favorite pieces of marketing ever. It's a 1974 IBM ad for their mainframe computer. It's a print ad. It's a picture of the mainframe computer they're selling to a business, to enterprise. And the line is simply nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. Right. And in that moment. But I think it's just so brilliant about that is they recognized, you know, in 1974 in a way that a lot of marketers I don't think do today. They're just selling to. A human being is probably terrified of getting fired for all the reasons you just talked about, right? I don't get fired if I buy the wrong toothbrush, shout out to Diana Housing at Colgate, but if I spend hundreds of millions, let alone billions of dollars, yeah, there's a lot at risk. All right, so because it's about relationships, how does the approach to kind of market research and mining for customer insights, the insights that, that wrap around and drive your marketing, how's that same as different than from a B2B perspective as opposed to a consumer perspective?

I would say where it's the same is I think it is the foundation of everything that we do. Data and insights. We have to start with an understanding from an audience centric perspective. So it's so important that we focus on the audience and that we're really getting down to the nitty gritty of what matters to this specific audience.

Can I ask you a question? Let's break apart, audience here for our audience, for the podcast audience. When you're doing that research, how, how many different, how many distinct quote unquote audiences are you thinking about? You think about the enterprise, of course, right? Because it is an audience, the individual as well, kind of the organ. Who, who are you looking at as you build kind of, you know, the. The insights that will drive the inputs that will drive the outcomes.

I think first of all, you, you, when you get into the audience, you're going to think about what is the industry, right? You're going to think about, you know, what is the organization within that industry that I'm reaching out to. But then you're also going to be thinking about the Personas, which is not only the role, but really the psychographics of who am I targeting, what matters to that person, what problem are they trying to solve and how am I showing up to solve that problem? So I think you've got to get down to the heart, which I think is really the Personas. And then you're gonna have the Personas within a specific segment. So if you think about it, the audience is going to be made up of segments and within those segments are going to be Personas. And you want to get the insights at the Persona level and at the segment level. That is where you get the true understanding of what is going on and the context that allows you to understand what is going on. And when you synthesize and analyze that information, both the qualitative as well as the quantitative data, then you have what I like to call nuggets, right? Then you've got those kind of golden nuggets that you can start to use to build the foundation of your strategy.

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[Seth Matlins]

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[Doug]

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[Seth Matlins]

So the risk you took helps mitigate risk on your customer's behalf. To learn more, go to roktrokt.com Forbes that's rokt rokt.com Forbes now back to our program.

[Dara Tresidder]

So in a B2C world, right? Lesbinette who, who I think I'm pronouncing his last name right, maybe Benet. But you know, I'm sorry, not only am I questioning whether I'm pronouncing his name right, I'm getting the wrong person. This is, this is what happens when, when you get old, you know the foundational book how brands grow not written by less suggests and they are thinking principally from a consumer perspective suggests that growth of brand and business comes from broader awareness and casual users, right? Like marketers who over segment on the heavy user. The premise is ignore the fringes of the market and where growth comes from is that, is that different in a B2B world, right? Which is you got to really focus on the market, there is no such thing as a casual user when you're selling what you're selling.

I think that that is true. I think you need to look, there are different stages. There are stages. Once you've got product market fit, you know, there are stages when you're trying to decide what who is my most valuable customer. So from a B2B perspective, especially a subscription business, right, we're constantly thinking about what is the cost of acquiring the customer, what is the lifetime value of the customer? And there's a. And you think about the interaction between both of those things. And the reality is some customers might cost you a lot to acquire, but when the lifetime value is so significant, it's worth the cost. Some customers might cost you a little to acquire, but they don't say that much, so it's really not worth it. So you have to, you know, you think about the cost of acquiring the customer and the lifetime value not as completely independent variables, but how they interact with each other. So if you, in A, in a B2B context, it's very, very, very important that you have that level of understanding of who am I going to get? What is going to matter to them, what value, what problem are they trying to solve? How am I going to deliver value? And then how am I going to capture that value and understanding, you know, what is that value worth, right? And having all of those things, I think allows you and sets you up to be able to not only deliver, but keep delivering. Because if we think about any relationship, relationships have to be mutually beneficial. So if you buy from me today and you get value, you're likely to buy from me tomorrow and the day after. But if you buy from me and you think this was not a good deal, you're not going to come back, that relationship will end. And so the context of ensuring that we are delivering value, and I like to say recognized value because you might think we're delivering value, but if your customer doesn't see it as value, then it's not value, right? It's got to be recognized value, I think that really sets up that relationship to continue to flourish.

I want to get back to recognize value in a little bit because I do love your addition of the word recognize value in front of. Right? Because value unrecognized may or may not have been delivered. And it certainly isn't as useful as value recognized. But I want to, I want to. While we get back there, I want to ask you about, you know, the role of brand in this from your perspective and, you know, one of the things that you've done since you got to Autodesk, and I think what, you put out three campaigns in your first six months, right? You know, if I'm remembering right, it was, you know, the Walking Dead finale, the Oscars and Notre Dame. Is that right? Am I getting all.

Yes, that's right. Great memory, Great memory.

All right. When you're putting Autodesk into a context like the Oscars or into a context like the Walking Dead, you're obviously, you know, there's a built in inefficiency, right? Which is say, I'm watching the Walking Dead. I have to say, I've never actually watched an episode.

It's a great show. You gotta binge on it. One plane ride, Seth. You gotta get into it.

It's on the list. Still haven't seen Game of Thrones.

Oh, my gosh, Seth. All right, so I'm gonna, after this, I'm gonna send you a list of all the TV you need to indulge in.

I mean, I've seen some good stuff, but yes, I absolutely take the list. But there's an inherent inefficiency, right? Which is you got a lot of consumers, quote, unquote, consumers, human beings watching the show. What's the efficacy of that? What's the strategic value of those efforts for Autodesk? Is that about helping a broader audience, which includes your actual audience, enterprise audience, understand who you are and what you do and kind of, you know, the fundamentals of top of the funnel awareness? What's it about?

So if we think about our marketing mix, we're going to have a horizontal approach and a vertical approach. So I this, those brand campaigns sit very much in the horizontal level, which is helping people understand what is Autodesk. So Autodesk, we are the leading design and make platform. Our software is used to design and make anything, whether it's the car you're driving or the bridge you're driving it over or the game your kid is enjoying on the ride. Right? Our software is used to design and make anything. And it is important that that knowledge is understood by the broader audiences. And so that type of work allows us to continue to remind folks, our software is used to design and make anything. And it almost, I love it because it's sort of like pixie dust that makes everything fly. It's that creativity that brings magic to the brand that really excites and delights our users. So when we come with a very specific messaging about, oh, here's how AI our Autodesk AI can help you in architecture. You're ready to listen because you remember, oh wow, this is that company that designs and makes anything. I wonder what they have in store for me. And that intersects intersection. That combination of a very strong horizontal messaging and narrative and branding coupled with solid portfolio audience centric product marketing. That's where the magic is. And I think at times when we lose either or we don't remember to emphasize either, then our mix isn't as strong. It's that combination, I think, that allows us as a B2B company to be highly effective. And it's been very effective for us. When I think about how powerful these brand campaigns have been, they've been really powerful in terms of opening the doors and really providing that halo that has allowed our growth marketing efforts to be incredibly effective.

From your perspective and as somebody who has marketed across the mix of CMO types. Right. Product services, brand driven, account driven, et cetera, how do, and you've talked a lot about the importance of relationships. How do relationship dynamics differ? B2B2, B2C. What's a CEO, CFO? Your C suite colleagues need to know about how they're different and how they're the same.

So I would say that the relationships, the way the relationships are the same. At the end of the day, the cmo, I think, needs to show up as a business leader first. Right. You're a business leader whose expertise is in like marketing, communications, commercialization. But whenever you show up as a business leader first and then have people understand, here's how the tools in my toolkit can help us achieve our business objectives, the relationship flourishes. So that is the similarity. I would say the difference occurs when you start thinking about what you measure and how you measure what you measure when you're in a subscription.

Hold that thought for me because we're going to end on metrics, measurements and such. But if you think about the relationship dynamics not just with within the enterprise, but between enterprise to enterprise, enterprise, brand to human, how do those dynamics differ? Or are they fundamentally the same? Whether you're selling, you know, a can of soda or a car or a bazillion dollar cloud computing contract, I think.

There are definitely differences. Right. I would say that. But what is different when you think about the relationship between the brand and the enterprise is when you utilize something very frequently, your relationship with it is a lot more real and a lot deeper than something you might not utilize a lot. So that is the difference, especially when it's something that is front and center. So I'll give you a concrete example. When I was at Peloton, you know, a lot of our users, our members, they used, many of them were using the products very frequently. So they became very passionate about it. So I would often meet members who had gotten tattoos of our Peloton logo on their body. They were very excited to show this to me and really thrilled when I came over to Autodesk. It didn't initially occur to me that I would ever have that experience. But then I get to meet some of our engineers and designers who are also using our Fusion software, our Maya software. They're using it every day to make these incredible movies, to make these amazing products. And I meet them and they also have tattoos of our products on their bodies because this is something that they use. It's something that is so fundamental. In fact, one of our customers said to me, he said, you know, I can't tell the story of my career without telling the story of Autodesk. So this is something that is so real and fundamental to them. And so you start to see that connection and that relationship that's very different than a brand where maybe your product is in the background, so no one knows what it is, or it's not something that is, you know, front and center of mind. I think in that case, the relationship might be more distant. It doesn't mean, by the way, your reputation doesn't matter. It doesn't mean your values shouldn't be communicated. It doesn't mean your customer shouldn't understand the promise that you provide. But that relationship is different, right? You might not have that same level of connective tissue or passion, but it doesn't mean it's important in a different way. The relationship is a little bit. It's almost like if you think about the relationships you have, the relationship you have with your immediate family who you see all the time, might be different than the relationship you have with a distant cousin. So I think it's that same. What is that level of usage? Depending on the level of usage will impact the relationship between the brand and the enterprise.

Do approaches to, and I recognize is a very broad question with a million different answers, but do approaches to effective demand creation and capture differ? B2B2B2C from your perspective?

I think they do differ because I think you need to think about your marketing mix in a different way when you're in a B2B context than when you're in a D2C context. For example, in a B2B context, account based marketing is a huge part of.

What we do take a second to explain what that is to those who may be.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So account based marketing is essentially a discipline where we are able to categorize the different companies that we're going after as accounts and then we have very dedicated strategies for each account in a very focused way, in a very verticalized focus. We focused on the values and the outcomes that those accounts are trying to accomplish which is very. You would not have that same approach in a. In a D2C context. So that type of. And that those types of engagements also tend to be higher touch. So there might be a lot more events, there might be a lot more customized thought leadership. There might be a lot more. So you're going to have. It's going to be a little bit more heavy handed than you might having a D2C experience, for example.

Actually it's a great segue into kind of the very unique. Not very unique is a word that is so often misused. You cannot qualify unique though unique. My father taught me that when I was little. I just looking over my shoulder the differences in sales cycle. Right. The traditional funnel has collapsed and went from being linear to looking like tangled buyers and you know, your old school earbuds. But it's been said, don't, don't. Let's not get hung up on the number here. But it's been said that 95 in a B2B context, 95% of your total addressable market, your one time, your sometime buyer are not in the market for you in any given moment. It's the same as automotive. Right. I get a car today. I don't. I'm not going to be in the market for 3 to 5 to X years. But that doesn't mean that the marketing that reaches me pre when I'm ready to buy is not of great utility. Right. So I want to talk to you about B2B sales cycles and how you think about kind of the horizontality and then the account based verticality across that sales cycle. And I want to ask you about. Well actually let's start there. Yeah. How do you approach something that you know has got a sales cycle often of years?

You know I think what is important is to think about okay, how am I cultivating this relationship and how am I delivering value. And you know, no one likes a relationship where I'm sure. I mean I certainly have those friends who I get a text from them as soon as I say see the high and the bubbles start to bubble on my iPhone. I get a little anxious because I know they're going to ask me for something because I know they're never checking, they're never reaching out to just be like, hey girl, how's it going?

You can see them coming from a mile away.

You know, you can see it coming. Every time I see the bubble, I'm like, oh, what's it going to be this time? And no one likes those types of relationships, right? The relationships that we like are mutually beneficial relationships. Relationships where people aren't just takers, but they give. They give. And what is really important is that we are constantly giving because if we have relationships with our customers where the only time they hear from us is when we've got something to sell. Especially, by the way, remember in the B2B context, especially over the last five years, things are evolving so rapidly and so fast. So customers are dealing with two things in one hand. They're dealing with uncertainty. How do I navigate uncertainty? All the volatility in the market, the geopolitical issues. So many countries in the world this year alone are going to have elections that's going to have massive ramifications on what is going to happen in those economies. People are anxious. They're wondering, how do I navigate the complexity and the uncertainty? On the other hand, there's opportunity. AI is here. We know it's here to stay. What does this mean for my business? How do I tap into this for productivity? How do I tap into this? What is the power of data? What does this mean for my business? What data should I be collecting? What data should I be utilizing? We are our customers. They're navigating both. And they are looking for a trusted partner to help them navigate both the uncertainty as well as the opportunity. And so as a, as a business, as a brand, you want to make sure that you're showing up to help them with that. Because as they see you as a trusted partner for navigating both of those, those things, when you come and you present a solution that solves a problem, you are more likely to be in their initial consideration set. So you can't just show up at the time of purchase or even right before purchase in that discovery piece, in that place where they, in that pre discovery place where they don't even know what they don't know. It is important that you're showing up. And I think that is what, that is the difference between businesses that thrive and thrive for a long time consistently and businesses that just sort of flame out.

You know, you remind me of a story from 20 years ago. I was at CAA at the time and Wednesday mornings at CAA was the motion picture meeting where all the agents in the motion picture talent lit side came together. And it was arguably, probably still is the most important meeting in Hollywood for film. Right? More movies got green lit in that room than anywhere. The meeting started with a guy who was in the book department who had just signed a huge hard to get director. And I remember Brian Lord, who's now the CEO of caa, says, okay, what can you tell us that we can learn from? How did you do it? And this book guy said, I've been treating him like a client for years. And that was so simple and exactly the point you're making, which is if we treat people like clients, like customers, like friends, for years, in their moments of need, in their moments of question, big and little, we're there. Which then brings me to. Or they think about us, to your point.

Yes, absolutely.

We have added value outside of the transaction, which of course builds the relationship. Which brings me to something you said said, actually quite a few things you've said. And I want to time together as we get to this, essentially this last bucket of our conversation. You talked about the high touch events. You've talked about demonstrating recognized value. You've talked about ensuring, you know, people are ready, businesses are ready to listen. How do you measure for those things? Because high touch is sometimes soft touch. What metrics and measures do you use? Or do you. Again, speaking broadly, and I don't want to make this about Autodesk, to prove that whether it's the horizontal or the vertical is worth it to know if you're investing wisely so that you can better invest tomorrow than you did today.

So, you know, a couple of things first, I think is what is the customer acquisition cost at the end of the day, understanding what it costs to acquire customers, very important.

What data goes into the CAC calculus, the customer acquisition cost calculus from a B2B perspective. Like it's. If I'm, if I'm just using digital advertising to sell the toothbrush, it's really simple math, but it's less simple for your sales cycle. So what goes into that?

Absolutely. For your customer acquisition costs, you're basically going to make sure that you're including all the costs associated with the acquiring that customer. So if there were, if it was a combination, let's say of media plus events plus, you know, this sales person's time plus this specific, you know, marketing camp, thought leadership marketing campaign you did, you're going to add all of it up and then so you're going to have. And you're going to use that to sort of say, okay, what was divided by the total number of customers you brought in with that? And then that's going to give you a sense of what, that, what the cost is per customer. So you're going to put it. And then there's mcac too. So if you wanted to say, what is the marketing customer acquisition cost? Because many times in B2B context, we work very closely with sales. So you sometimes want to, you always want to understand the cac, but you also always want to understand the mcac, which is the marketing cost of acquisition. And so you would remove the sales components and only the MCAC would be only the marketing costs associated with acquiring a certain number of customers.

So the MCAC is a segment of the total cac?

Absolutely, yes.

Within the context of the marketing acquisition costs and the role that marketing plays in creating that customer and capturing that customer, I tend, you know, we talked to the very top of this, like advertising is no longer, can no longer be proxy for marketing. I tend to think of marketing as proxy for sales because that's our job, right? That's the job of the market, to sell stuff and to make it easier to buy. What, what from a B2B perspective, what are you, what are you measuring? Especially given that you could be spending today and not see that customer for three years, what are you measuring? What metrics are fundamental to your business? What are you asking your teams to report to you on and what are you reporting to your C Suite colleagues on?

So I'm focused a lot on pipeline, a lot on pipeline. In fact, I think it's really important that we know what is the pipeline and what pipeline is marketing sourced? So what pipeline is being generated by our marketing activities? One of the things that my team and I spend a lot of time focusing on is what is the impact? Because it could get very easy to get caught up in, oh, we did this, we did this. Well, it doesn't matter what we did. You know, we're not in the efforts business. We're in the results business. And so it is really important that we are saying, okay, for all these activities, what were the results? What pipeline was generated as a result of that? And then looking and saying, what is the conversion rate of that pipeline? To make sure that it's also, you know, the leads we're generating and the pipeline that we're building is high quality. So we're placing a lot of emphasis on understanding that. But a big metric that I think is obviously co owned by marketing and sales. And I think it's so important that marketing has accountability. Here is new business, new business. How are we bringing in new business? Right. New customers, so new logos, but also expanding business with existing customers. Maybe we brought you in just using this one product, but we've got all these other products. Have we been able to prove ourselves what you have been willing to expand so that focus on new business is the north star for marketing.

Well, absolutely right. Because it's, it's growth, it's profitable, sustainable growth over time.

Exactly right.

That, that goes back to, you know, one of the first questions you answered about measuring for incrementality. But you, you bring up an implicit tension, right, which is you should be, the marketer should be accountable for that, but the marketer doesn't necessarily have complete control over it. Right. In, in this dynamic we've been talking about sales plays, your colleagues across sales play a key role in ultimate conversion. How do you manage kind of that decentralized responsibility for which you're accountable?

What I have to tell you is, and I've seen this, you know, whether it's working with a CRO when I was in a B2C context, D2C context or, or even when I've been in B2B context, you know, here at Autodesk but also, you know, at other companies, the relationship with the CRO or chief Sales officer is always excellent. When marketing takes accountability. The problem, and that is one of my, one of the biggest things that I have found is whenever I come to the salesperson and I'm like, what is our number? What do we need to do? How are we going to hit it? Okay, here are the, Here is our integrated marketing plan for how we are going to help make sure that we exceed our targets. We will take accountability. Sales is so happy. What sales does not like is when marketing shows up and we're like, well here are the things we're doing. Oh, and by the way, look, the click through rate was great. The engagement rate was great. Here are all the impressions we got. Here's the reach. And we're not, we don't care. We're not focused on the business and the numbers and making sure that we actually delivered on the revenue target and the billings targets. So what is so important I think for that relationship is especially if you're the CMO at the C or you know, even any in any senior position with the marketing organization, aligning with sales. We spend a lot of time aligning with sales at the beginning of the year and customer success, spending a lot of time as go to market leaders to say, hey, what does success look like? How can we make sure from the planning perspective, our strategies and our plans are aligned and our focused on the same thing? So we are all rolling in the same direction. Yes. We're playing our different positions. You know, we all have a position to play, but the goal is the same. Right. So it's not you versus me. It is us versus this issue. It's not sales versus marketing. It's sales and marketing versus, you know, making sure that we win in the market, making sure that we drive success.

I couldn't agree with you more, but it does seem like a lot of organizations don't agree with either of us because they keep disaggregating and in fact creating verticals that too often don't have any bridges, doors and windows that connect them, which again, challenges not just growth for the enterprise, which is arguably the most important thing, but it certainly challenges the CMO to deliver against their obligation to drive that profitable, sustainable growth for the enterprise. So I want to ask you one. I think it'll be a much shorter question. One last question and just so grateful for you being with us. You've seen so many businesses, you've worked across so many businesses. And again, the premise of this podcast is that most of our C suite, your C suite, speaking broadly and generally, not about Autodesk, yet again, they don't understand marketing. In fact, one of my premises is they deny their lived experience. Marketing doesn't matter. But, you know, why are you wearing those shoes, that suit, driving that car, wearing that watch, living in that neighborhood, going to those hotels on vacation? Right. Didn't just wind up there. What's, what's the one piece of advice that you might have for, for the CEO and the CFO in particular to, to better understand what to expect and what not to expect and perhaps on what timeline from, from their B2B CMO.

Absolutely. So, you know, first of all, I have to say I'm super fortunate at Autodesk because our CEO Andrew used to be the cmo. So it's. Talk about having someone you can kind of learn from who is just. It's unique. Right. He's also an incredible.

Yeah, yeah. I want to be clear, like, this is not about Autodesk, but speaking to the community of our, of our listeners and a community of chief executives who really don't come from marketing. Andrew. Andrew is an exception.

He's definitely an exception. And I've also, of course, worked for many CEOs who have not come from a marketing background. And what I would say, the most important thing I would say is listen to your CMO and be clear about what matters most to you. As a cmo, we have a broad portfolio. We are in charge of a lot of different things. And I think often the CEO and the CMO are not aligned on what matters most. And so the CMO might be doing a great job across all these things, but when the CEO is looking at this one thing that matters most and it's feeling like it's not meeting expectations for whatever reason, there starts to be a challenge. And the CMO might not even know or the CMO might think that that is not important because of what they're seeing from their context. Right. It's almost like that story of the elephant where you're like, is it a snake because you're touching the trunk? Is it a wall because you're touching the wall? Like, what is this? Is this a fan because you're touching the ears? When we are looking at how a business achieves its objectives, you can come at it from different ways. It is very important that the CEO and the CMO and the cfo fo, all three are aligned. On what path are we going to take?

I'm sorry I said that would be the last question. But your answer begs a question, which is, why does that misalignment exist so often? Because it is the CEOs and CFO's job to create and ensure that alignment. On what matters most. Why isn't it more common from your point of view?

Honestly, I'm going to say because of a lack of three things. The first is courage. You know, often as a cmo, we know a lot of things because we spend a lot of time with our customers and we have that insight. And a CEO can come to you and say, hey, you know, cmo, I want you to drive X growth. And you know that right now, based on what we have to offer, the TAM is not as big. And you know that that growth cannot truly be accomplished. And it takes a lot of courage to say to the CEO, that's not possible. Look, I'm ready to climb Mount Everest, but I can't get to heaven because I don't know how to get here on this side of earth, you know, but if it's Everest, I'm here, I'm ready to go. And being able to have the courage to say that. So sometimes the CMO might, you know, out of fear or out of you know, okay, we're going to try instead of being clear that, look, we're going to try, but this, here's what you can expect, here's what is realistic. And then the trust starts to erode. Because when you say you're going to do something and you don't do what you say you're going to do, that, that say do ratio, the trust starts to erode and then resentment kicks in. Because if you can imagine if you're being asked to go to heaven on this side of earth and you're like, it's not possible, resentment can start to kick in, which can start to impact the second thing, which is conviction. One of our greatest assets as cmos is our conviction. Because if you remember, marketing is the art and science of engaging our customers to drive growth and create value. That is what marketing is. The art is honed in. We hone our craft with our conviction. And when we start to lose our ability to either be clear about our conviction or hold onto our conviction because of fear or anxiety, we're not able to bring our best to the table. And that often impacts the dynamic between the CEO and the CMO or the CMO and the cfo, because that starts to. And then the last piece is confidence. At the end of the day, people are going to follow. When you think about your team, many times you're trying to do something that's creative and never been done before and innovative, and you have to have the confidence to lead your organization. And when you haven't had the courage to speak truth to power, when you don't have the conviction because you're questioning yourself, it impacts your confidence, which affects your execution. So if you think about what I talked about, the CMO being the misunderstood middle child where you're trying to balance strategic vision with excellent execution. To do that well, you need courage, conviction, and confidence. And when any of those falter, or in some cases all three falter, it can be very difficult to show up in a way that allows you to engage with your CEO and a CFO in a productive manner. Not out of fear, but out of trust to achieve the ultimate objective.

Dara, thank you for being with us.

Thank you so much for having me.

[Seth Matlins]

Thanks for listening. Today's show has been brought to you by Rokt, and you can find the CEO's guide to marketing wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to juice that algorithm, smash that subscribe button, and leave us a review so others can find us too. Thanks and we'll see you next time.