The one with Calvin Klein CMO Jonathan Bottomley on the business of telling truth with power, an archaeological way of thinking, and the analytical arts.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing Featuring Jonathan Bottomley, CMO of Calvin Klein

Podcast Information:

• Title: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing
• Host: Seth Matlins, Managing Director of the Forbes CMO Network
• Guest: Jonathan Bottomley, Chief Marketing Officer at Calvin Klein
• Episode Title: The one with Calvin Klein CMO Jonathan Bottomley on the business of telling truth with power, an archaeological way of thinking, and the analytical arts.
• Release Date: February 20, 2025

---

Introduction: Host and Guest

[00:00 - 02:22]
Seth Matlins opens the episode by introducing Jonathan Bottomley, highlighting his significant contributions to Calvin Klein’s marketing strategy. Jonathan has spearheaded a radical refresh of the brand’s marketing approach, generating historic levels of engagement that have revitalized both brand and business growth. His past roles include Global CMO at Ralph Lauren and Chief Strategy Officer at Vice's agency Virtue and bbh. Seth humorously mentions receiving underwear from Jonathan as a Christmas present, setting a light-hearted tone for the conversation.

---

Defining Marketing and Brand

Marketing as a Growth Lever
[03:07 - 04:55]
Jonathan defines marketing as one of the best levers for creating growth and value within a business. He emphasizes marketing’s agility, allowing businesses to adapt quickly in the fast-paced digital age. Seth complements this by suggesting that modern marketing isn't just advantageous but necessary for survival in today’s rapidly changing environment.

Understanding Brand
[05:18 - 10:31]
When defining a brand, Jonathan describes it as an opportunity to create and claim market positioning. A strong brand allows companies to command premium pricing and fosters genuine consumer desire. He differentiates between product and brand, explaining that while products are essential, the brand weaves the product’s value into an emblem that resonates deeply with consumers. Jonathan stresses the importance of integrity in storytelling, advocating for “telling truth with power” to build lasting brand equity.

Notable Quote:

"You're in the business of telling truth with power and in a way that truly compels."
— Jonathan Bottomley [10:31]

---

The Role of Brand in Business Growth

Jonathan elaborates on how brands serve as moats, protecting businesses from competition by fostering deep consumer loyalty and perceived value. He uses Evian as an example, where the brand's integrity—the purity of its water and French provenance—justifies its premium positioning. This alignment between product quality and brand story enhances consumer trust and willingness to pay higher prices.

Notable Quote:

"Every company, not just every category, is specific in terms of the way value is created across the different disciplines."
— Jonathan Bottomley [26:16]

---

Tensions Within the C-suite

Challenges of Being a CMO
[16:52 - 22:35]
Jonathan discusses the primary challenges of being a CMO, citing the need to navigate short-term KPIs alongside long-term brand equity goals. The rapid pace of change requires marketers to establish clear objectives and adapt swiftly to shifting priorities. Seth echoes these sentiments, highlighting the difficulty CMOs face in balancing immediate results with sustainable growth.

Hardest Part of Being a CEO
[20:16 - 21:22]
Shifting focus to CEOs, Jonathan identifies the toughest aspect as discerning what truly matters amidst overwhelming noise from various business disciplines. Successful CEOs simplify plans and objectives, allowing for clearer decision-making and strategic focus.

Notable Quote:

"Marketing is seen as something which most people could do if they put their mind to it."
— Jonathan Bottomley [22:36]

---

The Evolution of Desire in Marketing

Creating Desire in a Saturated Market
[56:53 - 58:56]
Jonathan observes that creating desire has become more challenging due to the saturation of marketing messages and the personalized nature of digital media. Consumers are bombarded with stimuli, making it harder for brands to cut through the noise. He emphasizes the need for brands to deliver genuine, aligned experiences that meet consumer expectations to foster lasting desire and loyalty.

Desire and Brand Endurance
[58:56 - 60:04]
Despite the difficulties, Jonathan asserts that building and sustaining desire is crucial for brand longevity. Brands must align their marketing efforts with product delivery to ensure consumer satisfaction and repeat engagement.

Notable Quote:

"Good enough is not good enough, and we should... the brands that endure have marketing that aligns with the actual product or service delivery."
— Jonathan Bottomley [58:15]

---

Visual Communication in B2B Marketing

Importance of Visuals
[45:35 - 46:53]
Addressing a B2B perspective, Jonathan underscores the power of visual communication, asserting that visuals are processed more quickly and convey deeper meanings than words alone. He advocates for owning specific visual codes—such as color schemes, fonts, and imagery—that consistently represent the brand’s identity. This approach enhances brand recognition and differentiation, even in B2B contexts where visual elements are often underestimated.

Notable Quote:

"Visuals communicate far more powerfully than words, certainly written words, because they're processed more quickly."
— Jonathan Bottomley [46:51]

---

Reinventing Legacy Brands: Looking Back to Move Forward

Balancing Heritage and Innovation
[48:07 - 50:31]
Jonathan discusses the strategy of revitalizing legacy brands by honoring their heritage while introducing modern elements. He cites Calvin Klein’s collaboration with Jeremy Allen White as an example of capturing contemporary relevance without abandoning the brand’s foundational identity. This “archaeological” approach involves digging into the brand’s roots to reinterpret and modernize its story, ensuring it remains relevant and compelling to new audiences.

Case Studies: Gucci and New Balance
[50:16 - 52:09]
Using Gucci and New Balance as examples, Jonathan illustrates how reinvention can breathe new life into established brands. Gucci’s modernized horsebit loafer and New Balance’s emphasis on heritage without being termed a "heritage brand" demonstrate successful balance between tradition and innovation.

Notable Quote:

"Our task is to move a brand on without moving it off."
— Jonathan Bottomley [50:28]

---

Challenges of Modern Marketing

Navigating Noise and Consumer Expectations
[54:14 - 58:56]
Jonathan emphasizes the complexity of modern marketing, where brands must navigate an overwhelming amount of content and consumer touchpoints. The key lies in creating meaningful, aligned experiences that resonate amid the clutter. He highlights the necessity for brands to maintain integrity and consistency across all interactions, ensuring that every consumer touchpoint reinforces the brand’s core values and promises.

Notable Quote:

"Marketing is about bringing someone in with truth to something that you can deliver over time and then constantly reinforcing that."
— Jonathan Bottomley [56:56]

---

Conclusion: Key Takeaways

• Marketing’s Agility: Marketing is a powerful lever for business growth due to its ability to adapt quickly in a dynamic digital landscape.

• Brand Integrity: Maintaining honesty and consistency in brand storytelling builds lasting consumer trust and justifies premium positioning.

• C-suite Dynamics: CMOs must effectively communicate the strategic value of marketing to their CEO and broader executive team to mitigate tensions and align objectives.

• Desire and Endurance: Creating genuine desire amidst market saturation is challenging but essential for brand longevity.

• Visual Communication: Effective use of visual elements is crucial across all sectors, including B2B, to enhance brand recognition and differentiation.

• Reinventing Brands: Balancing heritage with innovation through an “archaeological” approach ensures brands remain relevant and compelling.

• Navigating Modern Challenges: Success in today’s marketing environment requires strategic clarity, integrity, and consistent brand reinforcement across all consumer touchpoints.

Notable Final Quote:

"The best brands over time have always won their first and foremost."
— Jonathan Bottomley [55:07]

Jonathan Bottomley’s insights provide a masterclass in modern marketing strategy, emphasizing the importance of agility, integrity, and strategic alignment in building and sustaining powerful brands in today’s fast-paced business world.

Transcript

[Seth Matlins]

Foreign welcome to this next episode of Forbes, the CEO's guide to marketing. I'm Seth Matlins and I am your host. And today I'm sitting with Jonathan Bottomley, who is the CMO at Calvin Klein and reading from his bio, because Jonathan, it's just easier that way. He's led a radical refresh of the brand's approach to marketing and has had an immense impact on both brand and business success, generating historic levels of brand engagement that have helped return the brand and the business to growth. Jonathan's deployed an entertainment mindset, which is definitely something I want to get into across the brand's media mix and its consumer journey to transform brand and business to increase brand desirability with a succession of what you know are inarguably cultural defining campaigns with brand ambassadors like Jeremy Allen White, Jenny Kim and Jun Cook. Prior to coming to Calvin in 2022. So he's been there just what, two and a half? Getting on three years. Jonathan was global CMO at Ralph Lauren. Perhaps you've heard of it in Bolden Branch. He was also Chief Strategy Officer at Vice's agency Virtue as well as bbh. And he has led teams that have created some of the most influential and effective marketing ideas and campaigns in recent years. Years. I'm not going to lie. He also was kind enough to send me a bunch of underwear for a Christmas present. Thank you for that.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

You're welcome.

[Seth Matlins]

I will share. I am wearing them now.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

You are good.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. And thank you for being with us. It's good to see.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Pleasure to be here. Pleasure to be here.

[Seth Matlins]

So I want to dive in to our seven questions. Right.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. I was about to get off my own format, but let's stick with my own format. Why not? Oh, you know what I forgot to mention? I forgot to mention that amongst many other accolades, you have been both a Forbes entrepreneurial CMO list maker and for I believe, two years running, one of Forbes world's most influential CMOs.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

I am sure that your epitaph is now completely locked. Here lies one of Forbes world's most influential CMOs. May it not need to be engraved for many, many years. I don't know, man. It's the end of the day. I'm tired. Sorry.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

No, you know, what's important about that is I can tell you, like, you know, you are as good as your team. Right. And I think those kind of accolades, particularly the Forbes one, is such a great. They feel it because it's recognition and it's recognition from a place that matters. I Know you like to talk about what matters most and it does matter. And I think teams feel that. I think teams really feel that. So I think that's, that's the value that it has.

[Seth Matlins]

Well, it's nice to hear that. Thank you. And in fact we do take efforts as we once we figured out who will make the list to acknowledge teams within the write ups because we know no one markets by themselves. So with that, welcome to the show. All right, quick questions.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

We'll see how long the answers take. First one. Marketing is.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Marketing is. Well, the way I think about it, look, marketing is, you know, one of the best levers you have to create growth and value for a business. Simple as that. I think there are other levers obviously, but I think it's one of the best. I think it's agile.

[Seth Matlins]

What makes it one of the best?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Because I think it, you know, marketing, I'll come at it this way, like marketing is agile. Right. Marketing can flex and can be fluid and I think marketing can adapt quickly. I think there are other things that businesses can do that maybe can't adapt quite so quickly. Right. There's a developmental cycle, there's a supply chain cycle, whatever. I think in a digital age age you can move at the speed of the digital supply chain and I think that's one of its greatest advantages.

[Seth Matlins]

I like the metaphor of the digital supply chain.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

And, and you know, I almost wonder if it's not that marketing can, but that marketing has to be agile in today's world.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Right.

[Seth Matlins]

The world just comes at you too fast too. And, and things change fundamentally in the world, not actually in marketing. And we're going to talk about that in a second. But you know, the company that. And the marketer that isn't agile is not going to be doing much.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Very long.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

No. I think you're definition we have to be agile but the fact that we have tools that can adapt quickly helps. Right. And so I think there's cause and effect in there, but I think that definitely helps. And I think you talk about change. The challenges business faces today are changing at huge, huge pace. And I think for a CEO, the ability to move and read what's going on and to be able to react and put new things out there that can change the business fortunes is hugely valuable and important.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. One of the things that we talk about on the show a little bit and actually it's a good segue to the second question is the accretive value of brand. Yeah. Which indoors, despite other. Well that we seek to ensure indoors despite other changes. So with that, if that's what marketing is, what's a brand from your perspective?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, look, I think a brand is many things that the best. The best. The best definition I can give, I think, is a brand is an opportunity in a way, for you to create positioning in the market and claim the positioning that you want. I think particularly it allows you to command price if you do it. Well, I've worked in sectors where brand is seen as a lever to price all the way through the business. It's a way of commanding a premium. What I mean by that is, you know, I've often worked in businesses where desire is seen to be something you are aiming tangibly to create. And the brand is one of the best ways to do that. And it allows you.

[Seth Matlins]

I mean, the brand is the icon of that desire, isn't it?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I think. Well, it's interesting because we have other areas to go. I know the difference between product and brand in that respect is super interesting. And I think, you know, you start. You always start with product, right? You always start with products. And there have to be things woven and baked into the creation of that product that allow you to justify whatever it is you want to do in terms of positioning of price. But the brand becomes, I think, an emblem all the way through. Everything you do as a marketer to justify that price. And it's a lever, therefore, to get you there. And so I think the two work together very, very closely. You talk about an icon, right? I've worked in companies where there are icons of what that brand stands for. Very often they're products. They're not other things that we've also created. Very often they are the products. So I think when you can blend those two things together and get them to be inextricably, literally woven into the product, then I think, you know, that's really what a brand is.

[Seth Matlins]

Well, that. That is certainly what's at the heart of a. A thriving business, or at least a business that has the potential to thrive. As I look at our water bottles, I'm actually reminded of the very beginning of my career where I was the third person in the marketing department at Avion in the United States. I think, you know, a little of this story. So Avion, you know, invented the portable water, bottled water category, right? Everything else was in jugs or containers. And within two years, and this is a long time ago, we had literally a thousand competitors in similar bottles across. In grocery shelves across the country. And when I would present, oftentimes to Retailers not knowing what the. I was talking about. I was 25. I would do what I called the naked bottle dance. And I would take five, six, seven competitors, an avian bottle. I'd strip them all of their labels just as this is. And I'd ex. And then I'd pull, you know, the great reveal. I pulled the Avion label out from my pocket. Quite, quite subterfuge there, huh? And I say our job is to add value to this because what you have is a perceived commodity product. And then, you know. Yeah, right. Across product and service categories today, there's so many good enough alternatives that if you're not value to that label, products got to be great. Service has got to be great. You're not going to command that level of. Of margin or pricey elasticity or. Or, you know, I think it was the late great Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett's longtime partner, who referred to brand as a moat.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, I think that's right. And I think the moat is kind of, to use that, you know, analogy, like, integrity is important. I've heard that.

[Seth Matlins]

I have none, but I've heard that it matters.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I wasn't looking at you necessarily. I just mean in terms of the. Let's take the Evian. Right. The badge is really the integrity that, you know, over time, people believe it comes from the certain spring, you know, in the mountains of France. And there's a purity attached to that, and there's maybe some French provenance, and maybe it's great.

[Seth Matlins]

I just want to say for my colleagues, my. At my former employee, it's not just that you should believe it. It, in fact does.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

It's true. No, I know it does.

[Seth Matlins]

Nestled across Lake Geneva.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

And that's what you mix the ward mix the. Whatever it is you want to give your kids with when you. When you're rearing small children.

[Seth Matlins]

That's why the label is pink and.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Blue and it's why there's babies.

[Seth Matlins]

Little baby. Pink and blue.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, but I don't know that.

[Seth Matlins]

Why do you know that?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

So I just know, like, it's. No, but it. But it's important.

[Seth Matlins]

European thing.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

It's a European thing. I mean, but it's also like a marketing thing. Like, you know, I'm interested in the way.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

You do it. Well. Right. And I think not everything has to look a certain way. It has to look right. And have the integrity of what the story is. And I think that's, you know, what a brand is, which is. It's not the badge value. It starts from you know, if you're starting a brand, then you can, you know, start with the integrity of what you're trying to do from a product or a service level. But the story has to also have that integrity. If you're reinterpreting a brand after many years, you also go back, right? There's an archaeological kind of way of thinking, which is you go back to what's true, right? And sometimes that's just what's true about the product. Sometimes that's what's true about the way the story has been told, right? And an older a brand gets, the more you have to work with. But I think staying true and finding that fine line, having integrity to what the truth is, that's how you build the brand. Because otherwise, you know, people are not stupid. You're not in the business of conning people. You're in the business of telling truth with power and in a way that truly compels. And I think if you can get that right, then you get to command the premium that feels right for your market or for your business.

[Seth Matlins]

I don't want to contradict the idea that people are or are not stupid, but I wonder if it's worth a second on that, which is to say I'll speak only about America at the moment. Moment. And it's hard not to think that not everybody is. Is a genius. In fact, real data point, I think something like 8% of Americans think that chocolate milk comes from brown cows. So at least 8% of us are kind of knuckleheads. But what I want to unpack in that is that we as marketers, and there have been a lot of as. As reference, there have been a lot of announcements of logo, you know, rebranding and logo refreshes. And I've. I've looked at all of the. Or I've looked at the ones I've seen. I've read what's been written about them. I'm like, nobody gives it that much thought. I remember 10 years ago, somebody showed me the Amazon logo and the. They're like, oh, that's a smile underneath the connects. That goes from a.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

It's a Z. Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

I'm like, oh, come on. There isn't, by the way, great that somebody gave it that thought. Bravo. Nobody's looking at that saying, oh, that's a smile that covers the breadth of my desire. And I wonder what you think about kind of, you know, overthinking and whether marketers overthink ask a question, given that people don't spend that much time thinking about us at all.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I mean, I guess where I would start actually is I think marketing is a specialism in the sense that I think it is a discipline and an expertise in the way that the other really meaningful, really important disciplines within a business have that area of expertise. Sure. And. And I think, I think it's. I think it's dangerous to say there's a. There's a pos. I think there's a distinction. Right. Which I'll draw. I think it's dangerous to say you. We overthink, I think to overcomplicate. Sure. But the reason. Distinction, because I think that it's really important that we do our job and we go deep and we think hard about what it is that's really going to motivate someone and really going to make us stand out and really going to drive kind of the actions that we need in the market. And so let's use that Amazon example for the people that did recognize it, that it is a smile and it go if that's important. And maybe they'll tell someone else, maybe they won't. But the fact that there is real thought put into that integrity of thought, an idea that has foundations is really important, I think, to marketing. And I always enjoyed, I think whether it was there before, I think it was a sort of Google thing way of thinking that they talked about the 1990. Right. In terms of the way that ideas traveled through digital media.

[Seth Matlins]

I don't know what that is.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

So the way they used to talk about it was like 1% of people will actively share something. Right. And you know, or they'll create something, you know, and they'll go and they'll say, here's my version of the brand ad and I'm going to put it out there. 9% of people will engage with it. They might like it, they might share it themselves, they might comment on it. And the rest, the 90% are just observers.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

And I think that's something that's really important to marketing overall. And I would think now we're talking about it. It's something that's been an enduring truth of marketing, which is. And we used to say this like it was pre that. I think there was a similar kind of way of thinking about posters, which is you've got to get your copyright. You've got to get your copyright on a poster because for the people that read that, it's disproportionately important. And I think it's that it's like you win by being kind of having Integrity for the people for whom it matters. And I think if you. If you lose that, the fact that the color has to be a certain way, the fact that the product has to be a certain temperature. I know Apple at one point had something on their brief which is that the. The. The box when you open an iPhone needs to take seven or eight seconds to open. That matters.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I mean, the smell when you walk into a. Yeah. With the smell when you walk into a store. The music that's playing. Right. The way someone greets you. Those things are really important. And I. And I think they're all versions of the A to Z. A to Z. And I. And I think to me, it comes back to the idea that to be really, really good at this job, it's a discipline and an expertise every bit as much as finances, every bit as much as it is.

[Seth Matlins]

So. So two things. One, I want to say I think your distinction and push on what I said between overthinking and over complicating is so on point. And of course, it is always about the details. It is about that. But sometimes I still wonder if our academic approach.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Isn't sometimes errors on the. Shut the fuck up. It's a box. And that's a bad show. But it's interesting.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

So I don't want to go into it too deep because I know you think about it very, very deeply. So it's not like a challenge to you. It's just for the conversation. I think we're an interesting. Aren't we? We're an interesting breed.

[Seth Matlins]

You can challenge me. It'll make a more interesting episode for our listeners.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

But it's not on this point. I just. Well, I know we're in alignment here. It's like what's interesting about what we do is that there's the science and the art, and I think we're in the visual arts as much as we are into the analytical arts and the performance arts and the business arts. And I think, you know, the great visual artists of our time, whether they're storytellers in the media or. Or elsewhere, the detail matters because it's that, you know, there's something in the detail that creates the delight in the audience. Right.

[Seth Matlins]

It's one of that. That I say to a lot of people, it's all about the finishes. Yeah, it's all about the finishes using interior design reference. And I actually like. We're going to talk about kind of our visual culture and the import of visual imagery, but I think it's a good Segue to back to the, you know, starting questions from what you just said. If, if that's the job of the marketer, what's the hardest part about being a CMO from your perspective and you know, not just you thinking about you, but you thinking kind of.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, about us. About us. Yeah. No, I think, look, in essence it's a great job. Should be like genuinely is hard. I think we're lucky. Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Hard.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I, I think it's, I think there are other hard jobs though, you know.

[Seth Matlins]

And so just marking.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

No, I look at some of my colleagues, they have harder jobs. But anyway, whatever. I think, I think one of the hardest things that we have to deal with is that in a very fast moving world and we've talked a bit about that, some of the things we're trying to achieve have KPIs attached that maybe aren't ready today when I need them. They're on a longer timeframe than maybe sometimes you would prefer them to have. And so I think it's. How do you keep the narrative of we are moving clearly towards our objectives that we've collectively set live and real when objectives change, when priorities change, when the unforeseen happens. And so I think the best marketers are able to quickly establish short and long term objectives. They're able to work with different data sets. They're able to work with kind of what's true today and therefore what may well be true tomorrow. But I think that's the hardest challenge and I think when we've spoken as a community that to me seems to be where people come back to time and again. Right.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I'm, I'm in a quote. I was just looking for this quote. I have, let me just find it from, you know, the rather seminal. And I was talking about this in a previous episode, I think with, I think with Kofi, you know the lesbian A and Peter Field book.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah. The long and short.

[Seth Matlins]

The short of it. Yeah. You know, quoting from one of their conclusions, a focus on achieving short term results, what will undermine long term performance and vice versa, threatening the long term success and profitability of brands. And I think that, you know, one of the things that I hear from a lot of CMOs and certainly see in the world is that long term strategies get evaluated by those in the C suite who don't necessarily understand marketing on short term results.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

And that's not useful to anyone.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

But if, if that's. And, and by the way, actually I want to stick on this because I'm, you know, one of the things you said is you think there are other folks, enterprise and other enterprises who have a harder job than you do. I, and I know you've heard me say this, I tend to think. And of course you're right. There are very difficult jobs throughout. There is no easy job in an organization anywhere from top to bottom. But I do think that the CMO has the hardest job in enterprise today because they are forced to respond and react to the unimaginable, the unforeseen in real time. They are too often. That's why we started the show held to expect that are unrealistic, uninformed, off to ignorant short, long term strategies get evaluated short term. The sheer volume of things that you have to consider and you have to report to a group of people who don't necessarily understand your business. Not necessarily you, Jonathan, but the community CEO's job is really hard and we're about to touch on that. But they don't have to report to you, which is a distinct advantage for them. A board, of course. So what do you think the hardest part of being a CEO is today?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I think, look, I think, you know, the toughest part of being a CEO is really to identify, and I'm going to use your phrase because I really like it, to really identify what matters most at any given point in time. And what I mean by that is they are closest to the noise. Right. And so if I think about, you know, marketing and the discipline that I look after, there's a lot of noise that comes out of what I'm doing. Right. In terms of like what's working, what isn't working, what should we be doing? What shouldn't we be doing? What's someone else saying? Do people like it? Did they not like it? What did the partner say? You magnify that by the other, let's say 10 disciplines. Right. The noise that they have to deal with is incredible. And I think working out what the signals are within that noise is like the hardest possible job. And the people who've done that role, in my experience, the ones that have done that best are the ones that are able to like simplify the plan and the objectives to, you know, literally the simplest version of it and just to interpret everything through that lens. When she does that, the CEO is like at their very best. But I think that's incredibly difficult.

[Seth Matlins]

I used to say to my team, if we can't put it on a post it note, it's too long.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

And that wasn't a Contrivance. I absolutely believed it because so much of enterprise and the way companies work is a game of telephone. And a game of telephone loses the integrity and fidelity you've been talking about. What do you think some of the biggest tensions are between a CMO and their C suite colleagues?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I think you touched on some of them. I mean, I think a lack of understanding about how marketing is genuinely creating growth and longer term value for the business. If that's not clear, then I think that the tension arises very, very quickly. And I think one of the reasons that marketing is such a tough job and to sort of go back to what you were saying is that when it's not seen to be. I think people see marketing as something which most people could do if they put their mind to it. Right. If I wasn't the finance person, then maybe I'd be. If I wasn't the it. If I wasn't the person running supply chain, then I'd, you know, because it seems like we all get it and it's easy. I love that color. That's great. That's really clear. You didn't think about blue?

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Like blue might have been a little more, a little bolder, might have been a little bit more like, you know, and so you get a lot of that all the time. Yes. Right. And so I think that's the tension and I think, I think none of us are perfect and none of us have this imbalance like all of the time. But I think being, you know, every company, let alone category is very, very specific in terms of the way value is created across the different disciplines. The better and clearer you can be about. Right. This is the model. Right. This is how marketing is going to create value for this business today. This is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it. This is what we should expect to see. There are short term metrics and in my world, some of those are very, very tempting. We have dtc, we have data about consumers that we can target directly. You can see the effect of that tomorrow. But at the same time you've got to factor in and talk really compellingly about. But over time I'll talk specifically about the businesses that I've worked. You know, we've got high awareness, but we don't have the equity that we need. We need to rebuild qualified awareness and equity over time. And that's what it's going to look like.

[Seth Matlins]

Once people all that down a little bit for an audience that in particular, you know, our C suite colleagues listening, that may not understand share the distinction between awareness and equity.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really to do with value. Right. I think many people are aware of Brand X, right. Calvin Klein in North America, for example, has over 90% awareness. But the value that we're going to create for the company is about being a version of that brand that may not exist in everyone's minds today. We might want to show up in a way that stands for a different suite of products. Right. We might want to sell suits and jackets rather than the fragrance or the underwear that you believe we sell today. We might want to represent ourselves with a different type of icon in the market or a consumer that you see day to day. Someone who feels as if they have more means or more style. Style, for example. So you're building quite rational things like the things that we stand for, but the things that then have value attached to them. And that's the job of the product team, no doubt. It's the job of the people that, you know, think about distribution and think about the way the product gets presented in the market. But it's also the job of the marketer to say how do we reach those people? Of course, what are the signals that we want to send out? When should we do that? What media partners do we need? And so equity is really, I believe, like the lever off which you create genuine value for the business. Short term it allows you to show up in at higher price points, it allows you to get more consumers who are willing to shop full price, for example. And long term it allows you to adjust your ratio in the market to say that these things are building up towards a company that should be worth more on the stock market.

[Seth Matlins]

You know, we talk about, broadly about brand and its role in, in supporting margin, driving elasticity, providing kind of a, a lens through which a business can grow from selling underwear and fragrance to suits, to borrow your words. But of course there are some very strong brands that make their business at the other end of the spectrum, right. Walmart with edlp, Amazon. I mean, you know, Bezos has built Amazon. I should, I'm oversimplifying, but Bezos has built Amazon and now Andy Jassy is on kind of the premise that your mar his opportunity. Right. That brands are in fact, or at least product and service categories are being commoditized. And, and so I wouldn't want our listeners to lose to, to, to lose sight of the fact that brand can work at any price level.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Great distinction.

[Seth Matlins]

But it's also, if you like margin, you're not going to get to margin without.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

No, it's, it's a great distinction because the examples, and I sort of would go back to that. Every company, not just every category, is specific. And I think that's why, as you have to say, this is how we're building the value through marketing and then embracing everything else that's being done by the company to drive like the objectives in those examples. There's deep, deep equity in what Amazon and Walmart are trying to do. It's just, you know, he's. Andy Jassy, to use your example, is finding opportunity in other companies. Margin. But the equity that he's building with the consumer.

[Seth Matlins]

Yes.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Is like to do with the speed and the price I can offer and the ease of return, if that's what's necessary, and the other services that I can give and the specificity with which I can recommend products. And arguably that's kind of what the same Walmart is doing, just off the different distribution footprint. And that equity is every bit as powerful. And let's remember that Andy Jassy in particular probably has direct access to the most wealthy households in certainly the Western world, simply because the promise and that equity is so powerful, people are willing to pay, pay a subscription to get hold of it. Right. And so, yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

And actually if you look at Walmart's, I think they're for earnings. You know, a lot of their growth was being driven by households over a hundred thousand dollars.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Because that's compelling what they're offering. Right. And it's not to do with kind of premiumness doesn't need to mean expensiveness. Premiumness kind of also means I'm better at it. Right. And so therefore I.

[Seth Matlins]

Distinction.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

I love, I love the distinction between premium and expensive.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

All right, let's go quickly through these last two because you've touched on a lot of things I want to get back to. If you could wave a magic wand, the proverbial magic wand, and address one C suite misconception about marketing and marketers.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Broadly, what would it be? I get back to something I've already said, which is that it is, I think it is a singular expertise and I think it's seen as a generalism. Right. Marketing is seen as a general practice that can apply. And it's, I think, a singular expertise. And I think that, you know, it requires deep knowledge, it requires authority and learning, and then the addition is, I think every business is different. And I think if you apply general marketing practice to a business, you'll fail. I think you have to learn very, very quickly as to how you apply the expertise to this specific business with these consumers, with these products in this market and with these challenges. And I think that market is generally in the C suite. Are very, very good at doing that. But I think there's a misconception that it's kind of general. And once you know a bit about it, anyone can do it.

[Seth Matlins]

I've been wondering about, you know, you've talked about it a couple of times since we sat down, which is, you know, that marketing is a specialization. And I've been kind of, of I'll admit to being like, yes, of course. But it was what you just said about it being perceived as a generalist.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, that's what I'm getting that I.

[Seth Matlins]

Think is really interesting. And is, is that kind of the consequence of the output outcome of everybody thinks they're a marketer because they've been marketed to, to your point, you know, why isn't this blue?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, I mean, we should really talk about why the fact that's not good. No, I, I, I'm not gonna lie.

[Seth Matlins]

I wanted it to be red. I was like, that's it. The Tim, our producer, will remember. I was like, I don't know. This isn't a Forbes color, but I like it. I do, too. I do too. I'm, I'm all my makeups in this teal. Yes.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, I think it, No, I think it's.

[Seth Matlins]

I should say for those, I'm sorry to interrupt, Jonathan, but for those who are not watching on video. We keep referring to. Finally occurred to me. We keep referring to signage behind us that has The Forbes the CEOs Guide to Marketing logo up top.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

But no, I think it's on the one hand, I think it seems simple on the outside. Right. And in the way that some certain other disciplines don't. Because I think that we live in a world where the vernacular of marketing has become cultural vernacular. We all talk about it all of the time. I think the kind of.

[Seth Matlins]

What's an example? I mean, you're talking about, like, I.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Think an example would be. Let's just pick a really simple, I think, like the influencer phenomenon. Right? I think the barriers to entry, to become a marketer and to use ideas and to market yourself and to understand what that takes are very, very low in a good way. And so I think people look around and they go, yeah, I can do that. And they have a point of view and they have an opinion. And most people think, oh, if I, I could start a business Most people think I now, I think in their entrepreneurial culture, the innovation culture, that they can also be successful in this space. And I think that's probably true to a point. But I think what that masks is to be able to do it really, really well and to be able to really understand how the mechanics work under pressure in a big business where there's complexity, it's every bit as complex as some of the other disciplines. I think that's the first thing. And then I think the second thing is we as a community have perhaps not been good enough at kind of really proving how marketing work and how it doesn't work, what the model is for this company, what it is that I'm here or we're here as a team to be specifically doing for this company where you should hold us to account and make over what timeline. Yeah, exactly. And making. And making that. The narrow. Where are we in that cycle? What should you be seeing? It's not working. So we're going to pivot and change those kind of conversations. And I'm sure that that's also part of the issue here. Whereas many of our, our kind of colleagues and our peers are not just able, but willing and are in the habit of going, this is where we're at. This is where the supply chains at. This is where we're at on the IT overhaul. This is where we're at on our AI transformation.

[Seth Matlins]

Why do you think, by the way, this is a through line through all the episodes where our CMOs are sharing a similar perspective? I certainly agree with it. Why do you think those in charge of telling stories are so bad and setting and creating expectations are too often, I won't say often. So bad at doing it internally.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I, I think that. I think it's lack of comfort having that story in front of. Yeah. In front of the most influential people in the. I think it's that.

[Seth Matlins]

Honestly, by the way, I would have.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I would have answered by fear. Yeah, it's.

[Seth Matlins]

That's exactly what I was going to say. I would have answered my own question by saying people are fair. Afraid of getting fired.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

They're afraid of up. And so they turn to data. Data made me do it.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

And the data said, you know, and data's become a crutch rather than a tool too often. And, you know, I thought your point about influencers and creators was interesting because if you think about them as marketers in particular, the ones that are finding real success.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

They are marketers and they're marketing themselves in their content. They're building their own brand. They don't look at a thousand data points. They look at like four or five. They're incredibly. And they have mastery of those data points on a real time basis.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Totally.

[Seth Matlins]

Because, you know, going back to something you've quoted a lot, they're acutely aware of what matters most on the path to purchase. Right. Whether the path to purchase is defined as a literal transaction or as longer watch time. Yeah, yeah. And I should, having heard you use the word subscribe, just remind our listeners to smash that subscribe button and give this five stars. Sorry. A little commercial for me on this.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

But, but, but that's absolutely right, Seth, because it is about what matters. What are the KPIs that matter most? Right. And because you're always going to have a hundred. But what, what within the model that you're creating, to your point about signal and noise. Totally.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. And, and all right, I got, I got one more quick one for you. And then I know where I want to go, which is what, what's. You know, on a relatively quick basis, knowing their distinctions, as you've pointed out, across categories, companies, etc, brands and businesses grow when.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I think when there's real alignment behind the objectives and the way that you're gonna kind of meet those objectives. Yeah. I think really it's to do with those. I think that, you know. Well, there's a subjunct to that, but it's like commercial objectives. What are we here to achieve as a business? And then there's a thing that people often call purpose. But like, what are we here to really do and how do we get everyone aligned and how is that communicated? Because I think that's what purpose is really about. About. If you can get that crisp and you get everyone aligned, then I think businesses grow. The other thing I was going to add to it is I think, I think it really helps to have great products or great service at the heart of it. Right. But I think that goes without saying.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. I mean, there's that great Bill Bernbach quote, which is nothing kills a bread a bad product faster than good advertising.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

That's true.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

It's. It is kind of the minimum threshold.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Right.

[Seth Matlins]

So here, here's a question that I've been thinking a lot about over time. If you were to leave Calvin tomorrow and go to Acme Widget Company, which is a true commodity product. Yeah. What lessons would you apply from fashion and luxury that you think are kind of so fundamental to moving people from where they are to where A business wants them to be. That doesn't matter what you're selling and marketing. And I use selling and marketing interchangeably. What would you bring forward?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

It's a good question. I mean, I think the fundamental. Which I think the second thing I think I'm going to say is probably the more obvious one. But the first thing is absolutely know your consumer. I think what fashion and luxury businesses do really well is they understand in this case the way consumers dream and the way they want in fashion particularly, how is it that I want to show up? Who is it I want to be?

[Seth Matlins]

Right, and who do I want to be seen as and who do I.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Want to be seen as? Exactly. And they really understand that it's not like the consumer is, you know, 30 years old and lives in this place and wants to buy blah. It's not at a product level, although that is true. It's about what is it that that product does for them and how do I really, really crisply understand. I think if you can understand how to serve that, that. Because the amazing thing about fashion is it's never a need. Not really. Oh, it's an emotional need, but it's never like a necessity. Right. It's a want, it's a desire. How do you get someone to really think like that?

[Seth Matlins]

You know what I find interesting? Because of course you're right. And I saw this years ago. I saw some. It doesn't matter what I saw. People there. I will argue that fashion and style are important to, to everybody.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

100 of the people and you know, like, you know, not the guy who's wearing Wrangler jeans and you know, in Kansas and a flannel shirt from. It's like. No, but it does matter because he would, he wouldn't wear a Calvin suit.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

That's why he's wearing Wrangler.

[Seth Matlins]

That's exactly right. And a flat shirt. Because I said there's a quote from us like 17th century French philosopher that says style is the dress of thought. I've been using that and referring to it forever. And it is the dress of thought no matter who we are. And so, okay, besides knowing your consumer and besides understanding like. And I, I want to just kind of reinforce it because I think it's so important, which is who they want, who they are, who they want to be and who they want to be seen as just fundamental.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Well, motivators. Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

I didn't put it. You put it that way.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

No, but I think it is that and I think it's like, you know, it's not the data on a page. Right. It's like hopes and dreams. And I think, you know, we've all been taught at some point in our careers to think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Right. And there's a point at which need is not necessity in the truest sense of the word. Right. It's not like I'm cold, I need gloves. It's like I'm cold. Any gloves.

[Seth Matlins]

But which gloves do I need?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Seth Matlins]

I mean I, we, we've talked about this before. I think I might have referenced it when we were in Aspen at the Forbes CMO summit. But Scott Galloway had posted something at this point it could be a year and a half ago, shortly after Forbes had named at that time Bernard Arnault from LVMH became the wealthiest person in the world. Galloway's post was. And I think I'm getting this right and if I'm wrong, apologies to the professor, but his post was, you know, some version of the wealthiest person in the world. It's worth noting. Makes something no one needs.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Right.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. Because no one needs a Louis Vuitton wallet to carry their.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Money, let alone, you know, higher end products. And I, I, I took his point again, assuming I'm getting this right, but I thought he missed a point, which is emotional need is not based on rational.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Want and the need to be expressive, the need to be seen as the need to reflect an image is different than want.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah. I mean I, I hadn't read that quote. I mean maybe that was the point he was also trying to make. But it's like to me, especially today, you know, we live in an age where the story is so important.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

And like stories are no longer true most of the time now as we know. Right. And so there's a lot of fiction. Yeah. The post truth, all those things. It's like there are certain things that I think where brands have a role to play, there is that enduring truth of what they stand for becomes very important. I go even further back actually when I was, when I was applying for my first job. I hope this isn't too circuit, too much of a like loop but when I was applying for my first job in the final round, this was at BBDO in London, you had to give a presentation to the board of the like not the board board but like the kind of key leaders of that company. And it was about, on anything you wanted it to be.

[Seth Matlins]

And I'm assuming you were 22 or something.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

21. 22. So Andrew Robertson was CEO of the company. He was there. Michael Balk, Cilla Snowball, Vara, Ramzan, like heavy hitting people. And I was 21 1, just out of university, and I thought hard about what I wanted to talk about. And I spoke about mythology and I spoke about mythology through the lens of. We have for centuries and millennia been delighted by stories. We've been brought together by stories, we've been motivated to do things by stories. And the gods in the original myths in Greece culture were ways of unifying people to explain what they didn't understand, inspire people to do wonderful things, inspire people to do things they didn't want to do. Right. It's a fundamental truth of the human condition that we love stories and we'll be inspired in all sorts of different ways to do things. And I think in an image driven culture where the media has gone so noisy and so fast, the stories that we internalize are the most powerful. I think they're more important than the ones that happen outside. And I think the opportunity as a brand is to say, if I can understand someone that fundamentally, obviously if I can internalize the story, I'm telling them. You have great power in terms of the, you know, I'm not talking about nefarious means, I just mean in terms of what you want to do as a business. And if you're working for the Acme widget company, that's power that you want.

[Seth Matlins]

Yes.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Right. And I think there are Acme widget like companies out there that have absolutely cracked that absolutely cracked that.

[Seth Matlins]

Anyone come to mind?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Dyson. So those and that, you know, and command price control. You know, I hesitate to say some of the tech companies, but you know, in the end, you know, it was Steve Jobs that turned kind of like, like his original pitch for the, for the iPhone was, I'm going to get this a bit wrong, so. Because I hadn't had this front of mind, but it's like he's like, today I'm going to give you a presentation about an MP3 player, a telephone and an Internet browser. Yeah. And everyone's like, huh. And then he's like, you know, it's the iPhone. And you're like, aha. And you know, that's obviously an act of amazing technological genius and the product and the service and all of those things. But in the end, it's an act of storytelling through the lens of design and all sorts of other things.

[Seth Matlins]

What I love about that example is how short the story was. And I'm reminded of something that he actually When Steve was first fired at Apple, back I think early 90s, John Scully, who had been CEO, maybe chair of Pepsi, went in to run Apple and. And Scully said something that I have also carried with me over decades, which is marketing as theater. And Steve understood that and great brands understand that. And I think what I think is interesting about the Dyson example is it's actually interesting on a handful of, you know, that ties back to a handful of things we've talked about, from a strong product to a strong brand to a story well told.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Which is they decommoditize commodities.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Seth Matlins]

Which is, you know, what Avion sought to do. Right. We were decommoditizing the world's most abundant commodity, even if not always potable. And I want to use this to actually go somewhere new. But I know I'm going to come back to fashion lessons because I only let you share one. But you've. Speaking of stories told old quickly because our attention spans, you know, our attention, our ability to consume content has remained constant over centuries, if not millennia, while the amount of content has increased a little bit over time. Just a touch. So. And you've referred to image and visual culture a few times, as in today's world, where a picture is no longer worth a thousand words, but far more, where we communicate in emojis and mem and, you know, we share, therefore we are. How do you. And you. You and Calvin historically have been so polo as well. You have so much experience in the creation of image, not just the creation of image through visuals.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

I was having conversation with a B2B CMO who said that premise is not relevant to them. And I said, I couldn't disagree more. Do you think visual communication is relevant to a B2B company? And what do you think today' needs to understand about kind of, you know, how to communicate through. Through image and picture?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

And I mean, I think visuals communicate far more powerfully than. Than words, certainly written word, because I think they're processed more quickly. Yeah. And I think we ascribe meaning, deep meaning to imagery. And I think you can own certain codes within imagery. I think fashion teaches that very, very well, you know, to other industries, which is you can see what is and isn't a certain brand and you can see the power that's communicated. They're just having a joke. Going back to the color codes, they're really important. I think if you're a B2B company, there are color codes, there are ways of presenting who you are. It might be through people or it might be through product. It might be through scenarios that are incredibly important. Incredibly important. Important. And I think that everyone processes in the same way, whether they're buying for their business or buying for themselves.

[Seth Matlins]

That's right. That's right.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Right. And so I think those visual.

[Seth Matlins]

And I don't think that's well understood.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

No. But I think visual doesn't have to be a picture of us sitting here doing a podcast. Right. It can be a color code that you need to own. It can be like, I think a font is visual. Right. Of course, you know, word can matter in that respect. And I think, you know, early businesses really, you know, you walk around New York City, right. And those early railroad businesses or whatever, they really understood the power of visual. And that might have been through a building, it might have been through a font, it might have been through, you know, other design tropes which I would absorb into the world of marketing, for sure. How so?

[Seth Matlins]

So one of the things that I've admired about the work you've done since you got there in 22 was at least what, from my perspective, you may look at it differently, was a courage to not reinvent a wheel, but to in fact, modernize wheel. And the wheel I'm referring to is. Is image based.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Right.

[Seth Matlins]

When.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

When you came out with the first Jeremy Allen white iteration, not only did it capture the attention of the world. Right. I mean, it was a conversation globally, but it hearkened back to at least within the underwear category. You know, know the origins of or at least the first explosion for the brand.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Did. What was it like to wrestle with not invented here from the other side of it.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Right.

[Seth Matlins]

So many times, so many people throw out the good or ignore. And you've talked about it, kind of an archaeological consideration, the enduring truths.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Totally.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. Tell us a little bit about what led you to go look backwards, to look forward.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah. I mean, I think you have to do that. I think this whole idea of not invented here is wrong in fashion at least, perhaps also in other categories as well. I think one of the things we're talking about earlier, integrity, truth, what people already believe. Right. As consumers, is very, very important to the integrity of a brand, to your ability to claim market position, to claim price with real power. Power. And so, you know, in this instance, the codes had been thrown out, actually. And you can see that in what we could see is not just that visually, but you can see it in the business as well. I think, you know, your power is people come with optimism and warmth and desire towards Something that they think they know and if they stop seeing that now, if know, I think someone I used to work with, the, one of the founders of bbh, had this brilliant phrase, which is our task is to move a brand on without moving it off. Which is a great phrase. Nigel Bogle. Yeah. And so he, as someone who, whose role professionally was to pick up brands that someone else had invented, often, not always, but often, and to find what was true and to reinterpret that in a way that felt frustrated, fresh and that feels fresh. I think that's our job. And I learned that from him. And I think, you know, similarly, I was, you know, I've worked with some amazing people in this category in fashion. He taught me a lot about how to do that.

[Seth Matlins]

Chris Davis, who, you know, who's the CMO at New Balance, you know, which is 105 or six years old, says something that's, that's similar to what the BBH founder. Was it John?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

That was Nigel. But yes, you can describe it to John as well.

[Seth Matlins]

We think of, we think of New Balance as a brand with heritage, not a heritage brand.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I love that.

[Seth Matlins]

And it's, it's a really important distinction just as.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

But you can see that in that reinvention.

[Seth Matlins]

Absolutely.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

And I think that's a big part of the success. They do a great job.

[Seth Matlins]

And in fact, if you look back at, you know, Gucci's having a little bit of a, A difficult time the last couple of years at least, you know, looking at sales, but economy, etc, playing into that when Alessandro was there and reinvented and reinvigorated the brand, what he was. I mean, you think about just as one example, you know, they're the, the fuzzy horsebit loafer. The horse bit loafer.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

The fake fur. Yeah, right.

[Seth Matlins]

He reinterpreted the classics. He modernized, reinvented, reinvigorated it. He reached back and you look at, actually, I think their new collection. Andrea Bremmer. This is a shout at Allied Financial. This is a shout out for you because you and I have had this conversation. You know, they're. Their most recent collections are phenomenal because they harken back to what the brand has always been.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, I think that's the, that, you know, I think, you know, in fashion, that's what you're constantly trying to do. Because I think the most successful businesses, fashion businesses, are able to sell and resell either to the same consumer or to new consumers every time. Something that they always stand for, for, you know, fast fashion is a little different. But the branded businesses are constantly trying to sell the Horsebit loafer, the branded underwear, the fantastic jeans, the logo T shirt, the amazing denim jacket. So what is it that you bring that's new? Why is that something that only you could bring? And how does that retell the story of something that's enduring? And that's like the trick, I think within fashion, certainly brand led fashion. Right. I would distinguish it a little bit.

[Seth Matlins]

There as, as we come to a close, I want to, I want to reference something we were talking about before we went, you know, we started recording, which is I'd been at drinks last night with somebody who is running a brand inside the LVMH portfolio. And, and you know, she said to me, one of the great things about being a marketer inside LVMH is it's the business of creating desire, image and imagery. They understand kind of the, the fundamentals. And this hearkens back to what I asked you about what lessons you'd bring forward int. They invest in same, they believe in brand. So two questions. What would you say to the C suite who don't believe in brand? About what they're getting wrong, what they're missing and why they need to. Yeah, perhaps this is redundant with some of the things you've already said, but the second part is what role? How have you seen desire evolve and different forms of desire across your career as a student, student of and practitioner of. And you know, I guess that's a third question. I'll try and help you remember them, but I'll forget them the moment I'm done is what does desire play a role regardless of product, service, category, country? So one at a time, what doesn't? What doesn't. What would you say to the, the, your C suite to see the C Suite broadly and globally who dismiss the import of brands?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

About why brand matters.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah. I mean, I think, look, you, you start with, you know, a big, high desire company and I think often when people hear brand, I think what they see is expense. It'll take a while. It's going to need to be something kind of outside of the core of what we're doing. Right. It's a new thing, a different thing that's somehow going to sit above the way we go to market and the way that we do business. And I think that's where I would challenge because I think actually everything's brand today.

[Seth Matlins]

Yes.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

And so, you know, whatever category you're in, whatever business you're running, we talk about a path to purchase, a consumer journey and it's told, you know, with simple shapes like a funnel, it's not linear, it's not time based. Who knows where the consumer is going to come in, right. And so most often they'll be coming in, I don't know, through a Google search and straight into the way you present product, pdp. They might wander into your store, they might have an emergency and be faced with two different types of spanner. Which one do I get? Right. The way the brand needs to show up is there.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

That's where you need to create the specific kind of desire, that specific emotional reaction that says wherever you come in. And let's just talk about those bottom of the funnel, like highly measurable moments where someone can actually buy something that's the most important price the brand. You know, the way you describe the product, the way it's presented, maybe the way it smells, what the associate says when they come up.

[Seth Matlins]

Every single, that's the brand.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

That is the brand. You don't even need to get anywhere near the top, the poster, the fashion show, the big expensive movie, whatever it is, brand. And if you don't understand that, you're not going to win. Right. And I think that the best brands over time have always won their first. And I would argue just because you use the LVMH example, they win there first and foremost. Yeah, they win there first and foremost. They do the other things. Of course they do, but that's where they win. Right. And I think, you know, every, let's use the sort of like mythological spanner every time you use that spanner and every time that's the brand. It shouldn't, it should work really smoothly. It should work like, you know, it should fit right in your hand. It should do. It should work.

[Seth Matlins]

Sorry, what is a spanner?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

What's a spanner?

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah, what's a spanner?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Oh, am I using English? You are.

[Seth Matlins]

You're talking English, not American.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

A wrench.

[Seth Matlins]

A wrench.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

A wrench. A wrench. I'm sorry, Yeah. I thought we all used spanner. We don't. It's a wrench.

[Seth Matlins]

Okay, sorry.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah, wrench, you know, or like a widget. The widget needs to do what it's supposed to do. So that's the first thing. By the way, I got the second question.

[Seth Matlins]

I remember, oddly, I walked into a who I'm going to keep the brand company anonymous. I walked into a high end brand company's offices a few weeks ago and I push on the door and I'm like, this door needs to be repainted Right. It was chipped and just dirty. I'm like, literally the first exposure to them, front of house, I'm like, repaint your door.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

I walked into the men's room. I was like, when was the last time this was cleaned? I was like, you know, men's room, front doors, what do they have to do with brand? Everything.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah. These margin pressures are real.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. All right. So the second question was, how have you seen desire.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Oh, yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Morphin evolve?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Well, I think. I think. I think it's harder to create desire now because there is so much. There is so much. Like the media has become so much more intense and personalized and close to people that I think people are bombarded with things that are supposed to elicit desire more frequently. And so I think it's harder to cut through on that level. I genuinely do.

[Seth Matlins]

It is, yeah.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

I think genuinely do. And so I don't know if desires morphed. I just think it's like, you know, we talk about dopamine, we're getting stimulated more often. So I think it's like, how do you really land that? I would say is the first thing. I think the. The second thing is that I think that I think people have higher standards now around what delivery, you know, off desire is, if that's the right phrase. I think people move on from brands very quickly now. I don't think they endure. I don't think they sustain. I think you get it right. Yeah.

[Seth Matlins]

Just stability.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Yeah. I think people have more choice. I. I think if you under. Deliver, you're done.

[Seth Matlins]

Yeah. Which, by the way, you know. Good. Right?

[Jonathan Bottomley]

Like, yeah. I don't know if that's new, but I think that that's perhaps because there's just so much noise, so much.

[Seth Matlins]

And there's so many options. Yeah, Right. Which. Which again brings us is. Is a perfect way to get to the last part of it, which is in a world where there are so many options, where there are, as I shared before, you know, good enough alternatives, even if one is better than the other, it's good enough within categories. Given the complexity given of. Of landing desire now, as you just said, is the creation of it relevant to all categories? And despite how hard it is, is.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

It's hard to write. More important. More important. Absolutely. Because I think, like, good enough is not good enough, and we should, you know, and I'm not saying, oh, I'll dream about everyone having high standards, but I think that. No, but I think the brands that endure, and I think endurance is important because I think what marketing is trying to do is claim a consumer. Consumer, let's say it's for the first time. But make sure that what we're claiming and the desire that we elicit really lines up to the experience of the product or the service so that person is genuinely delighted. Because I think that's a commercial imperative, not just to be one and done, but actually to bring someone in on the basis that you know them well enough and that you've lined up. And I'm not talking about underwear, I'm not talking about fine suits. It can be the widget that it really delivers and that they want to come back again and again. Because I think marketing is about bringing someone in with truth to something that you can deliver with over time and then constantly reinforcing that. And that can be through helping with the product delivery or how you should follow up, when you should follow up. But those things are critically important. And I think, just to your point earlier, it's just as important in B2B as it is in in in B2C. I know the way that you go to market is different, but I think it's even more important than ever.

[Seth Matlins]

Jonathan, thanks for being with us.

[Jonathan Bottomley]

It was a pleasure. Thank you. It.