The one with Diageo CMO, Cristina Diezhandino, about what CEOs need to know about organizing to meet and lead marketplace evolutions, managing investment across a massive brand portfolio, and what can get in the way of marketing delivering against its...

Summary

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Episode Summary: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing

Guest: Cristina Diezhandino, CMO of Diageo
Host: Seth Matlins, Forbes
Date: December 4, 2025

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Overview

This episode brings Diageo CMO Cristina Diezhandino into conversation with Forbes’ Seth Matlins to break down what CEOs need to know about modern marketing. The discussion explores how to organize marketing for future success, balance investments across a vast brand portfolio, and the obstacles that can prevent marketing from enabling business growth. Cristina shares wisdom from her multi-decade career, reflecting on lessons learned at Unilever and Diageo, while offering frameworks and examples relevant to marketing leaders and CEOs alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Cristina's Evolving Approach to Marketing

(00:30–01:26)

• The fundamentals of brand-building remain unchanged: brands must still “conquer the hearts and minds” of people.
• What’s changed most is speed and complexity: “The how and the environment and the technology that we now have at our disposal has changed enormously.” – Cristina (01:15)
• Need for future-proofing: Brands should continually aspire to be iconic and aspirational even as consumer environments evolve.

Marketing as Commercial Leadership

(01:56–05:41)

• Cristina credits her Unilever training with giving her a strong business mindset: “The brand manager is the general manager of the brand.”
• Impactful marketers must navigate C-suites and boards by communicating in ‘business-centric’ terms.
• Cristina observes both commercial and pure specialist paths for marketing leaders:
  • “I believe in diversity of capabilities… some will have that spike on that business angle and others less so, but they will have a spike more on those other aspects.” (04:36)

The Ingredients of a “Big Idea”

(06:40–11:55)

• A big idea must be simple, enduring, and rooted in human truth.
  • “It touches some form of human truth, and for that reason it is enduring.” – Cristina (07:17)
• Emotional resonance and powerful expression are vital:
  • “There’s something about emotionality, emotional connection, for me, that I’ve seen consistently.” – Cristina (10:11)
• The “brand world” nowadays is visual first, due to global reach and fleeting attention spans.

Creating Authentic and Relevant Content

(11:27–14:07)

• Visual consistency and adaptation are critical:
  • “Wherever you go, wherever you encounter, you experience this brand, it’s communicating to you in a way that is consistent…” (13:10)
• Need for adaptable branding to address numerous touchpoints and cultural realities.

Managing an Expansive Global Portfolio

(14:07–24:26)

• Diageo’s portfolio is managed with a balance of science (data, frameworks like the “Consumer Choice” segmentation) and art (intuition).
• Investments are made where consumer motivations and growth trends converge, sometimes leading category development proactively (e.g., tequila outside the Americas).
  • “We want to lead that trend and we’re going to play our brands in those locations, even though for now they’re still relatively small.” (15:57)
• Portfolio architecture leans into consumer needs and intentional brand positioning to avoid harmful cannibalization.

Navigating Category Segmentation and Cannibalization

(21:00–24:26)

• Differentiation by price, product format, or occasion is key when brands share a category (e.g., Tanqueray vs. Gordon’s in gin).
• Willingness to cannibalize within the portfolio, if it means capturing more consumer “share of occasions.”
  • “We can serve different moments in time…if you have X number of occasions, I can gain share of your portfolio of occasions.” (24:21)

Metrics for Investment Decisions

(24:26–27:25)

• Diageo uses a proprietary ROI methodology for both short- and long-term attribution, optimizing investment allocation.
• Short-term metrics (market share, talkability) matter, but are balanced with long-term brand-building metrics.

Expanding and Shifting Occasions

(27:25–32:52)

• The role of “occasion” is both leverage and limitation for a brand’s growth.
• Shifting established perceptions around use cases (like Guinness in summer, or champagne beyond celebrations) requires:
  1. Overcoming internal biases,
  2. Creating new “reasons to believe,”
  3. Drawing inspiration from across the brand portfolio.
  • “The main barrier, oftentimes, is internal. You have to overcome the strong beliefs of an organization that has learned for years that this is how it goes.” – Cristina (30:16)

Organizing for Marketplace Evolution

(33:24–39:14)

• The modern CMO’s pressure: balance effective investment with ever-expanding content demands and fragmentation.
• Diageo’s response: “Conscious Creatives” — global, centralized content creation teams, integrating AI-powered content adaptation (“Virtual Content Studios”) to improve efficiency and reduce duplicated effort.
  • “It does the doing on behalf of everybody else…gathers the funding.” (36:04)
• The biggest challenge isn’t operational, but cultural, as local teams adapt to shared creative processes.

Finding Cross-Industry Inspiration

(39:43–41:53)

• Cristina observes that luxury brands excel at “love for the craft” and deep customer care — a mentality she tries to bring into CPG.
• The intimate knowledge of origin and craft not only informs marketing but inspires the entire organization.
  • “If you go to the place where your product is made and you meet the people who make it today… it’s so inspirational.” (42:03)

The Power and Limits of Origin Stories

(43:27–45:40)

• Origin stories can differentiate—especially with key stakeholders like bartenders—but the importance of provenance must be balanced with understanding of the consumer and the context.
  • “Valuing the product that you’re selling very much…is reassuring and it gives the organization confidence, not just the marketers, everybody.” (44:50)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On emotional connection:
  “When that emotional connection is really connected to the truth of the brand…it generally is enduring.” – Cristina (10:18)

• On future-proofing brands:
  “How do we future proof our business? How do we make sure that our brands continue to be iconic aspirations?” – Cristina (00:42)

• On segmentation vs. cannibalization:
  “We certainly look at that segmentation…What consumer need are you solving for? …You can very well…create a clear distinction between your existing portfolio brands.” – Cristina (21:00)

• On internal barriers to change:
  “The main barrier, oftentimes, is internal. You have to overcome the strong beliefs of an organization that has learned for years that this is how it goes.” – Cristina (30:16)

• On integrating AI and content creation:
  “The application of content, the adaptation of content, is enabled by our AI work which we have set up. We call it the Virtual Content Studios.” (37:17)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:30–01:26 | Cristina’s changing approach to marketing
• 01:56–05:41 | The marketer as business leader
• 06:40–11:55 | What makes a “big idea”?
• 14:07–17:06 | Managing and investing in a massive brand portfolio
• 21:00–24:26 | Handling multiple brands and segmentation
• 24:26–27:25 | Metrics, talkability, and commercial results
• 27:25–32:52 | Occasion-based marketing and shifting perceptions
• 33:24–39:14 | Reorganizing for efficiency (central teams, AI, cultural challenges)
• 39:43–41:53 | Lessons from other categories, luxury, and craft
• 43:27–45:40 | Using (and not over-relying on) origin stories
• 46:24–47:32 | What gets in the way of marketing delivering growth

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Organizational and Leadership Advice

• Marketing remains a business growth function—CMOs must communicate fluently in the language of business.
• Portfolio and occasion-based frameworks deliver clarity on investment and innovation.
• Internal mindsets and established beliefs are often the primary obstacles to changing brand perceptions.
• Efficiency in execution, through centralization and technology, must be coupled with local empowerment and feedback.
• Inspiration from outside of category (luxury, insurance) can elevate creativity and consumer engagement.
• Ensuring the entire organization values the product and brand increases the likelihood of brand-building success.

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Final Word from Cristina:
“Whatever’s going on in their world, [marketers] keep very present. What is it that only you can do for that business? …Make sure that you bring that to the business every single day.” (47:32)

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Listeners’ takeaway:
Whether you’re a CEO, CMO, or aspiring marketer, Cristina Diezhandino’s episode offers a masterclass in commercial leadership, adaptive brand building, and the organizational changes necessary to keep brands relevant, coherent, and impactful on a global scale.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

To ask you a question that occurs to me. I haven't asked anybody across any of these shows yet. I'm wondering, you know, you have such an illustrious career. What, if anything, has changed about your approach to marketing over time?

[A]

That's a very good question, Seth.

[B]

Yeah, I'm kind of bummed I didn't ask it to anybody before, but, you know, you're. You're the first.

[C]

Look, I think we all reflect, I.

[A]

Do reflect on the changes that are happening very fast, even faster every single day. And I think in the approach to.

[C]

Marketing, that is very present in my mind. How do we take this function further? How do we future proof our business? How do we make sure that our brands continue to be iconic aspirations?

[B]

But is that a change from 10 years ago for you?

[C]

I guess the speed is different.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And the fundamentals haven't changed. The fun at the heart of what we're trying to do essentially is the same thing in that our brands need to conquer the hearts and minds of.

[A]

People so that they choose them in.

[C]

Whatever formats they do. But the how and the environment and the technology that we now have at our disposal has changed enormously.

[B]

I want to. I want to stick a pin in that, because that's actually going to be where we get next. But I want to dive a little deeper into kind of approach and, and not to push to see if there's been an evolution, but when, when you began your career, did you have some hypotheses about, you know, the role and value of brand, the place of marketing, even when, you know, you're like a year or two into this journey that, that hold up or that you're like, I was so naive, you know, what did I know?

[C]

I think both things are true. On the one hand, I started my career in Unilever, and I was trained to think of brand marketing and brand building as drivers of business performance. So I was told the brand manager is the general manager of the brand. That served me really well, has served me really well throughout my career, because in many ways, part of the success of a CMO is to play an important role, an active role and a leading role in that C suite, and oftentimes engaging with boards of companies and some external stakeholders. So I think that business mindset, which I learned very early on, is still critical today, and you could argue, oftentimes even more critical. Why am I saying that? Because sometimes you encounter stakeholders that are decision makers who are not necessarily knowledgeable about marketing and the specificity of marketing. And for that reason, being able to have the ability to communicate in terms that people relate to and understand that are very business centric is very useful.

[B]

Why do you think thinking broadly, right. And this show is, is. Is always, you know, we paint with a broad brush here. Why do you think so few CMOs, and that's my observation, yours may be different, actually understand that they are commercial leaders, first.

Marketer, second. I do find that one of the biggest challenges marketing has is that.

Too few understand their job is to move the business forward.

Do you agree with the observation?

[C]

I have seen both. I have seen both and I think part of it could be certainly in today's world. And you were asking me about what's changed because the environment is changing so much and the technology around us is changing so much. There is a real dedication that is required to adapt to these changes. And if you think about creating content today, how it was done back in the day and how it needs to be done today.

[B]

Well, I mean I think back is quite different. Yeah, for sure. But back in the day content was just a 30 second ad pretty much.

[C]

And a few outdoors, et cetera. And look at the amount of content versions that you need today to be portrayed in a certain way across multiple touch points. And I think that requires a degree of specialization and we hire for specialists in these areas. Certainly in my world, the world of culture is so critical, it's always been critical because our brands live in the space of socializing and socializing happens out in the world. So that expertise is necessary. And oftentimes you'll find specialists that come into a business from an angle that is very specific. And specifically in the world of creative and communication, I think that line of action which is so useful and so valuable, it's harder to translate into the business. And so some do, others don't. Now companies like Diageo, for example, have training and programs, etc. That enable for people to move on if you want to. But I think we also must value that specialization and those specialists contribute greatly. So I think, I believe in diversity of capabilities and I think creating teams that contribute in those different ways and some will have that spike on that business angle and others less so, but they will have a spike more on those other aspects of. I think it's really helpful.

[B]

I mean, no, no doubt. And actually in bringing up training was Unilever where you started your career?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What like all, all these moments later, what are some of the things you learned in those first days, years that you know, like invaluable? And this is how a Marketer should be trained.

[C]

Simple concepts, but they were really ingrained.

[A]

I mean, back in the day, I think I spent the first two years.

[C]

Doing a ton of training on anything that you can imagine. So what is a big. How do you judge advertising.

Et cetera? And in our world today, in Diageo, we have a program, it's called the Diageo Way of Brand Building. Those concepts exist. And the biggest effort for us now is in making sure that we adapt and we adopt what is new and how do we make sure that those new adoptions are building a brand.

[B]

Let's go off on a couple of the tangents you just surfaced because they're really interesting. What, what should a CEO know? Not your CEO, but every CEO, about what a big idea is and how to judge. Let's not make it about advertising, but let's make it about creative. How to judge work. What, what should. What did you learn about what a big idea is? How do you define what a big idea is and does that every CEO should know?

[C]

If I think about specifically the idea.

[A]

Of a big idea, I suppose it's simple.

[C]

It touches some form of human truth, and for that reason it is enduring.

[A]

Because human truths are absolutely.

[C]

And when I look at some of our brands today that totally comply with that definition in terms of what is at its heart.

It'S absolutely true.

[A]

Think about Johnnie Walker, right?

[C]

You know, this is a brand that from the moment it was conceived all those years ago, had some form of concept of progress at the heart, right? Of course, this is post rationalization. I'm sure the founder didn't think about it this way, but we do.

[B]

I think it's a safe bet.

[C]

Yes, but then we've really taken on.

[A]

That concept and taking it forward. And I think this is my point.

[C]

Around endurance of ideas. Because for ideas to endure, they also.

[A]

Need to evolve to some degree, right?

[B]

For sure. And what then going back to something else you said, how, how. How do you think. And let's not even make it about CEO. How should anyone judge good work? Like, do you. Do you hear for different brands or differently at Unilever? Or just think, you know, if you were to take another job with Acme Widget Co. Tomorrow, would you have kind of a framework for criteria for what? How to judge great content to determine if it's good? Greater needs to be thrown away?

[C]

Certainly we do. And the less.

[B]

Less the we more than the you. Like, you take a new job, what do you go in? No, for real. Like you take a new job, what do you go in thinking like, you know, what's your framework for saying, this is what I'm bringing from my career to this new moment?

[A]

I look for authenticity.

[C]

I look for the truth, what is.

[A]

At the heart.

And then how it.

[C]

Is expressed, and whether that expression really.

[A]

Takes that idea and makes it bigger.

[C]

If I think about, you know, not to be in my kind of current brands, but in general, I think you will find that that is the case. Every phenomenal idea is produced by really driving what is at the heart, what is at the core of that concept, of that proposition. And then because it is expressed in.

[A]

Such a powerful way, which is generally.

[C]

Very simple, you can see how it.

[A]

Can go beyond what was originally conceived.

[B]

How do you know when it's expressed powerfully in a way that transcends the room in which it's being evaluated and places it in the context of the lives in which it'll be received?

[A]

There's something about emotionality, emotional connection for me, that I've seen consistently.

[C]

This is what makes it resonate. And when that emotional connection is really connected to the truth of the brand, so it's not external, it actually touches the internal proposition of that brand or that product.

It generally is enduring.

There's a left field and the right field side of this evaluation. You can think about how it's constructed, or you can think about the number of words that is being used on. You can look at more and more visual expression of it. So I'll give you an example. We have certainly a few words that capture that idea, but also more and more we look to the expression of that brand idea into brand worlds. They're very visual today, perhaps even more so than I would argue that back in the day. That is because you now have to recognize whether that concept can be visualized very rapidly in environments that have very little language.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Sometimes there's no voice.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And we were talking about back in.

[A]

The day and the world of the 30 seconds, the concept, what is a good idea may be the same, but how do you judge that that idea.

[C]

Is going to live widely and resonate?

[A]

And I think that's why, for me, perhaps if I were to give you a kind of a recognition or a reflection is the value of a visual expression.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, look, I think you bring up a wildly important point, which is, you know, forever a picture has been worth a thousand words. In today's world, it's worth far more than that. Right. And because of a combination of factors, not just the, you know, the launch of Instagram, the pop, you Know, tick tock, the clutter of content, noise options that are asking for our attention. We, you know, emojis, we communicate like full thoughts and an emoji. How, how do you translate, how do you look at translating.

Enduring truths into. I don't want to. It doesn't even have to be enduring. It could just be relevant for a moment. But how do you look at that adaptation to that new reality, this new very visual reality? Or is it just a channel specific approach?

[A]

No, I think there is a real visual world and it's actually in my opinion really critical that that is well thought through. Really. We take a lot of care, I take a lot of care in making sure that is the case.

Because if you think about it in this fast changing world, multiple touch points for every consumer every day. And in our world, my world, these are global brands. They exist in multiple geographies with multiple cultural realities. So for these brands to be iconic, I need to make sure that wherever you go, wherever you encounter you experience this brand, it's communicating to you in a way that is consistent that you get the value, the expression of the brand in language, visual language, verbal language that gives you, that has that thread that says this is who I am, I want.

[B]

Let's, let's. This was going to be my third question. Now it's going to. I don't even know. I should stop keeping track because we will go off on tangents as we have. But you just talked about something that I want to get into which is you have a, I don't know how many brands are in your current portfolio.

[A]

It's like more than 150. Yeah.

[B]

It's an enormous portfolio and you just use the phrase, you know, they exist in multiple cultural realities.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I've got two questions and we'll go one by one. But.

How, how, what is, what is your approach to managing a huge portfolio of brands? Right. And you know, how are you deciding where to invest and not. And then the follow up is based on, on your note about how they exist in multiple cultural realities. How do you ensure that when I'm in London, as we are right now and I see, you know, pick your.

Johnny, right. I see creative for Johnny. I see work for Johnny. I see, I have a Johnny experience that when I'm in Nigeria or, or Singapore, there's that consistency given that they exist in multiple cultural realities. But I won't, I won't make you remember all the questions. Let's start with how do you. A huge portfolio of brands around the.

[A]

World that is a science and an art.

[B]

What's the balance between it?

[A]

We've really put a ton of science into it. For example, we developed, we call the Consumer Choice framework, right. Which essentially looks to evaluate what is the size of the occasions and motivations of consumers in regards to their social life around the world. And we bucket them into different segments. The end point of that is to make sure that we display our portfolio in each market in a way that maximizes our opportunity to satisfy those motivations. That said, then we also have big priorities of global brands around the world. So Johnnie Walker or Guinness or Smirnoff or Don Julio are big global brands for us, which we want to pursue globally. Why is that? It's because they play in categories where all our data sets say are going to continue to grow in the future, or we have an active play to make them grow in the future. I'll give you the example of tequila. Tequila is big in North America. It's also big in Mexico. In rest of the world, not so big yet. However, we have an understanding of trends that tells us that the underlying drivers that cause that growth in certain parts of the world is happening elsewhere or is likely to happen elsewhere. And for that reason, we want to lead that trend and we're going to play our brands in those locations, even though for now they're still relatively small. And we will have a combination of brands that are growing fast, growing less fast, others that we need to stabilize. And always in a business like ours, there will be a consideration for. What about the tail? What do we do with that?

[B]

How do you. How do you. And you may have given the answer just now to the question I'm about to ask. But while you've got your priority brands and you've got now priority categories, right? Which is you see the opportunity for tequila in markets where it's underdeveloped and the CDI is like nothing on a relative basis within the long tail of your portfolio over time, have. Have brands, you know, bubbled up that just somehow for some reason have found attraction that surprised you. And what do you do in those moments?

[A]

I'm always open to that possibility.

[B]

I'm sure. Traction. Always open to traction.

[A]

The truth is, when you look at now think about consumer first and what is happening in the world, what trends are taking place. Say for example, the idea of consumers are drinking less but better. And that is also so less.

[B]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

[A]

Less but better means more mindfully, so they will. It's not that they're trading up Less drinks, both.

It may have an implication in terms of we call it premiumization, more expensive products. It may also mean different parts of day, which was my point earlier. Like today we're seeing in many parts of the world people are drinking spirits brands earlier in the day, sometimes with food.

[B]

Like, I mean we're recording this at.

I don't know, my clock is on LA time. What's it, almost 11? Is it almost 11? I mean, is it too early to drink? I'm down. Like, let's go.

[A]

Well, I would say on a workday, Seth, I would offer you non alcoholic products.

[B]

Okay. However, if fast growing part of your portfolio.

[A]

If this was a Sunday and we were going to go to a Sunday brunch, then I would say we could entertain. Espresso martini with kettle one.

[B]

I mean if I'm going to Sunday brunch, like it's no holds barred. I'm, I'm entertaining, you know, all kinds of things.

[A]

But my point was if you think about those changes then, and I mentioned the espresso martini as an example, we also are promoting brands like you know, Tanqueray with the gin and tonic in different ways. Right. It really works.

In that kind of occasion where you have more of a tapas type of food and it does go well. So I think you may have a consideration of this brand operates in this way because he has always done that. But if things are moving around, you may consider how the brand, those other brand, those brands are adapting into this occasion. The other thing I should say is we also have a big innovation program. So trademarks that have operating in a certain, with a certain proposition actually have the opportunity and we are very mindful of what kind of scope they will play into or can play into. But we are, for example, I mentioned a gene brand, Tanqueray. With a Gene brand like Gordon's, we've also launching products that are of a different format with lower alcohol in them because they will play further in other occasions.

[B]

How do you. For our CEOs in the audience, excuse me, who are building enterprises or buying enterprises that begin to integrate multiple brands in given one given category. So use the example of tankering Gordons. What's your portfolio approach to building brands that maybe cannibalize each other a little bit or don't cannibalize each other at all. What's a framework our audience can, can deploy? And you know, for the CMOs in.

[A]

Our audience too, we certainly look at that segmentation. Well that I referred to earlier, the consumer choice framework. It's an Easy way of thinking. What consumer need are you solving for?

[B]

Right?

[A]

And then the whole concept of brand positioning. So in the case of.

Tancria and Gordon's, they play in slightly different price points. Tanqueray has a brand extension on Tanqueray number 10, which is really created for martinis, whilst Gordon has more of a skew in innovation terms towards more. We call them ready to drinks, more flavorful, different flavor offerings. So you can, when you have multiple brands in one category, sometimes they are differentiated by themselves. Think about whiskey. We have differentiations by origin. You have differentiations by, in our case, even Scotch whiskey if it's a single malt or if it's Johnnie Walker. But even when that isn't the case, you can very well, and that's the job of your marketers. If you're the CEO, create a clear distinction between your existing portfolio brands. Make sure that they will interact perhaps at some point, but it's very possible to set them apart and have them serve different purposes, different needs from a consumer point of view. And I would also encourage the innovation to really tap into the different aspects so that in the end your whole fan of possibilities is widened. You maximize the potential of those trademarks.

[B]

You know, png, this may be old. I don't know that it carries through to the current day, but P and G used to, if I'm getting this right, have a philosophy of portfolio that's like, we don't cannibalize ourselves. Somebody else is going to cannibalize us.

In. In a world where, you know, segmentation plays an essential role in multiple brands within a given category, each have distinct positions, of course, in consumer segments.

Do you ever consider, like, yeah, maybe we should just go after ourselves in a way in the PNG model, because the job to be done by the brand, the problem you're solving for is the same, like is, you know, do you have a perspective on when that works?

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Because if you think about consumer behavior, the idea of repertoire is real. There will be some consumers that are extremely, you know, I suppose, loyal to a particular category. Like you are a whiskey drinker and all you drink ever is whiskey. Okay. Even if that is the case, I would say we've got a large portfolio of whiskey brands, so I'm sure there is interaction between brands. Actually, I know that that is the case, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that because we can serve different moments in time because it's a share of market different. Think about whiskey brands, they're different flavor profiles. So if you're an aficionado, we can offer different flavor profiles such that if you have X number of occasions, I can gain share of your portfolio of occasions by leveraging my portfolio in a certain way.

[B]

What are the metrics you look at to determine where to invest?

[A]

Well, we've done a ton of work in roi. We developed a proprietary methodology with.

Essentially attribution, looking at ROIs short term, long term.

That system of ours is able to look at our total investment in absolute dollars and configure an optimal allocation of that investment.

Learning from what has happened in the past, we ingest the data of what we've done, but also considers what is expected in the future in terms of growth, then I would say that is about investment specifically. But when you think about once you've done that, I think it's also fair to say, look, we look at a ton of short term metrics because short term does matter.

Which include the short term market share, the short term talkability.

[B]

How do. I'm sorry to interrupt again. I'll stop apologizing because I'm going to keep doing it. How, how do you draw a line between talkability from an attribution perspective, talkability to commercial results?

[A]

I think what we do is we use talkability as a. Almost like a bit, as a bit of the moment. So we observe what is happening. Because I'm looking for longevity, I'm looking for sustainable outcomes. That bit is informative, but it's not enough. But it's informative, it is good, it's reassuring. It's a tool that we use to confirm that the choice has been positive, seems to be positive. That won't come in the way of ensuring. If it's a cultural platform, for example, that we have invested behind that we have metrics that indicate that long term expectation of results.

I'm going to give you an example. If we have a partnership with the English Premier League and Guinness, I want to make sure, well, there is a talkability aspect when we partner for a particular moment in time or a particular team that is very exciting. But at the same time I want to make sure that our brand is doing well, maybe during that period in we call it on trade consumption in bars and restaurants, of off trade supermarket sales. I also want to make sure that.

Moving forward I have a greater association for a brand that is suitable for sports watching occasion, which is an occasion that I'm very interested in because it's very big.

[B]

I'm thinking about occasions now. Years ago I did a lot of work for The Coca Cola company and its portfolio. And at that time. And they seem to bounce back and forth between intrinsics and extrinsics occasions and not they were very occasion focused. I also at that same time was doing work for a high end champagne brand that was really desperate to expand its occasion. Right. Like champagne is delicious at dinner.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Not just for celebrations.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you know, so our work was to try and figure that out. And I'm wondering. And we really struggled with it. Like you know, I did the n of one research of my wife was out. When she came home, I had a bottle of champagne on the table. What are we celebrating? It's just Tuesday night we're celebrating that. That didn't become a campaign, as you may be aware. But like do occasions, besides being a leverage, do you find that they can also be limiting which is say, I mean I don't think for a Guinness. Right. Which is an icon of its own type. But are there times when. When it's just hard to break out of the occasion? There's no elasticity.

[A]

No question it is hard. However, I think knowing being knowledgeable about the occasion and the making of the occasion, it's actually critical. And I'll give you the example of Guinness again. You know, in the US Guinness was very associated with Ireland and St Patrick's Day. That's a very specific time of year. We want it wider one day. How do we do it? Okay. And learning in that case from how we've done it in other parts of the world has been really, really valuable. But even in Ireland, I can tell you for a long time it was much more associated and spiked more strongly in winter months than in summer months. It was a brand that was seen more appropriate for winter indoors warmth.

[B]

You know, it's a cozy beer.

[A]

However, it is a cozy beer and that's wonderful. But it's perfectly suitable for summer. So we've done a lot of work. Lovely day for Guinness and you know, many other things. The sports watching occasion is not necessarily attuned to one specific month. It opens up.

[B]

So actually on that and then I want to switch directions a little bit on that. There's nothing. The only thing harder than creating a perception is shifting one. Right. Because you are confronting established beliefs, good, bad or otherwise. Do you have an approach that you can recommend to the audience that's like if I'm trying to shift perception of occasion suitability or a brand in its entirety. Like here's a couple of things I'd be considering.

[A]

Absolutely. The first one I would say Is the main barrier oftentimes is internal. You have to overcome the strong beliefs of an organization that has learned for years that this is how it goes.

[B]

Being able to status quo is a.

[A]

Bill of being able to.

Just consider the possibility.

That this might be possible. That that might be the case is essential. It's point number one.

Oftentimes there's very little data about that because it hasn't been done. I think that's, for me, one of the big jobs of marketing, actually, which is to open the possibility of a different future.

[B]

Yeah. You know, to your point, when. When I was a strategist before coming to Forbes.

My team would come to me with a response to a brief and they'd offer rtbs reasons to believe. I was like, I hate reasons to believe because they're rooted in the past. Right. I want to create new reasons to believe. So I asked them to come back with NRTVs. Right. Because if it's just kind of rooted in what's been.

[A]

Yes, it's much more learning, 100%. I think that's for me. You were asking me earlier about the value of having a portfolio. It gives you lessons and it gives the organization lessons. So we haven't done it here, but we've done something there. It's a source of inspiration. And I think that cross fertilization, it really matters.

I can tell you about so many conversations regarding origin in whiskey, which is very, very important, or in the journey of premiumization. The value of the years, you know, the signal of the number. The more the merrier, the more, the more valuable. Which is not untrue, but it's not necessary always. So I'll give you an example. For a long time, we were hearing look to command a certain price point in Scotch whiskey, you can only do it through a single malt. And Johnnie Walker is not a single malt. It's made of single malts. It's a blend of malts. And we felt. I felt this brand, which stands for progress, has the ability to break the norm and do something else. I really fundamentally.

[B]

The responsibility, even.

[A]

I fundamentally believed in that. And, you know, thankfully, you know, there was more belief than just me, and we've done it.

[B]

Is that what launched Johnny Blue?

[A]

Johnny Walker, Vault.

[B]

Vault.

[A]

Vault is really very, very high end. Yes. Very, very high end.

[B]

Maybe we do a tasting before this is all over.

[C]

Maybe we do.

[B]

All right, let me switch gears with you because, excuse me, I'm sure my audience loves when I clear my throat and their ears.

You talked about the pace of change in the very beginning of our conversation. And I'm wondering.

Given that pace of change.

How you're organizing, reorganizing your own marketing organization to meet and lead changes in the marketplace.

And respond to what will drive value moving forward.

[A]

Absolutely. I think that has been occupying a lot of my mind for the last good couple of years. And I'll tell you what, I think this will be relevant for bigger people, different industries. Look, as CMOs, we have a tremendous pressure to ensure that the investment behind the brands is effective and efficient. And I think this happens across the patch. And to me, there's the big. Obviously, I want the brands to have investment that ensures that they continue to be aspirational and iconic. And that requires investment because of fragmentation. The requirement hasn't come down in absolute dollars because you have to attend to multiple touch points. The quantity of content is expanded, not being reduced. And so the way in which I thought about it was, look, there's ways in which we can organize ourselves differently that enables for greater effectiveness and efficiency. And this is what we've done in very simple terms.

We've created.

A group is called the Conscious Creatives. The Conscious Create Teams. This in particular refers to how do we create. And it's comprised of a global people, global teams, and a couple of the lead markets. That group of people on behalf of everybody else in global brands defines the asset matrix. What are the things that we will do? And in a very small number, the three or four things that we will do. Then we gather the large majority of the investments that goes behind developing those assets together.

That then is utilized broadly across the broader community of that brand.

[B]

Is the Conscious Create team fundamentally a center of excellence that services the whole portfolio or their team more than that.

[A]

Because it actually does the doing.

[B]

It does the doing.

[A]

It does the doing on behalf of. On behalf of everybody else. Yes. And it gathers the funding. So it's a very new thing.

[B]

So how does the brand manager in Paris feel about that?

[A]

It's a very good question, to be honest with you, that cultural change is the biggest challenge in that essentially you're changing.

How the construction of the creative is done and it reduces the fragmentation. So it's a very good thing. From a business point of view, of course, we're subject to performance. That creation from that group needs to deliver the results. So that group is also owner of the KPIs. Now, it also has pluses from, I think, about talent development. And we can have various people coming into those groups to learn and to participate selectively. But the Other thing that I think is really important to recognize, and we haven't talked about AI yet. I'm not suggesting that we necessarily talking.

[B]

About it in the pace of change.

[A]

But the truth is exactly in this sense, the application of content, the adaptation of content is enabled by our AI work which we have set up. We call it the Virtual Content Studios. The brand manager in the market more than ever is owning that piece because that piece needs to work locally and talking about beats and talking about measuring performance in short waves in that short rhythm that needs to happen in the local market. So there's a spike that is required in understanding your local reality, understanding and executing the deployment of the work, and then feeding that back to that group of people.

[B]

What was your insider observation that led. Led the from to shift, that led you to create this group?

[A]

The biggest thing for me, Seth, was how can we reduce fragmentation of create and adapt? Because in the past we would have had a central piece of content and then have it be funneled through the multiple geographies in ways that are very fit for purpose. Now that is not wrong. It's just a bit more expensive than I need it to be. So it's a way of reducing.

Cost and maximizing the synergies. In fact, one of the big outcomes for me is that by creating this group of people this way and joining forces this way, we've been able, interestingly, to do some things that perhaps it would have been either harder or would have taken longer to do in the way that we did things before.

[B]

Well, efficient. I will say one of my observations is over the last five or six years in particular, efficiency has become synonymous with strategy, which it absolutely is not. And I have always found it curious that we as business leaders aren't always aspiring to be efficient. It's like, oh, you know, a recessionary economy, you got to be efficient. I'm like, I don't know. I think you have to be efficient in a prosperous economy. But.

We'Ve talked about category. I want to take you outside of yours and get your perspective as, as, you know, both as a consumer, a human, and, and as a practitioner. Is there any kind of, you know, categories you look out category en masse with it, you're like, yeah, they do great work as a category, you know, and I'm not just talking about advertising, but they really seem for me it's insurance. Right. Like, at least in America, I don't, I don't know the category outside of America, but like, over and over again, a low engagement category does work that is high engagement. Interestingly, it's almost always based on characters. These are campaigns that are in some cases, 25 years old. And I'm like, I don't understand why this category is just crushing it creatively. Is there one that you think just like or two you think do a great job?

[A]

I mean, I'll tell you, I take a lot of inspiration, actually, from the luxury category in general, and I'll tell you why.

[B]

There's a lot of commonalities.

[A]

There is.

There's two things in my mind. One is the love for the craft, which I think is so critical, and also the love for.

The care for the people of your customers in a way that both in extreme ways. Now, when you translate those concepts to a CPG world, you can always have it be the same, but in many ways, certainly for me, it applies a lot. Certainly the craft piece.

[B]

When you talk about craft in the context of luxury, you're talking about the love of the craft at the product phase and. Or the marketing phase.

[A]

I was thinking more of the product phase, but the product phase is essential for the marketing phase.

[B]

Inextricable.

[A]

Inextricable. And if I think about.

You know, someone was asking me recently, how would you teach someone who's new about marketing?

[B]

That was me yesterday.

[A]

That was you yesterday. And I mean, reflecting on it, actually thinking about me, my own learning.

Definitely a big eye opener for me was going to Scotland, right? If you go to the place where your product is made and you meet the people who make it today, and then you're exposed to all the history of how this thing came about, and the care and the love and the passion, it's so inspirational. I take every creative team that works on these brands to Scotland or to Mexico in the case of Don Julio.

[B]

You know, it raises a question for me. So my first job was at Avion, when nobody knew how to pronounce it or why they needed to buy it. And within about two years of Avion launching, because it was in. In the United States, there were a thousand competitors, literally regional, local competitors, and essentially the same bottle at much lower price points. Basically, everybody at that time was communicating on source, right? Made in the mountains of, you know, Appalachia. Pure, clean spring water. While Avion had a true source story. Our pers. I say our like, I had nothing to do with it. I was hanging banners at tennis tournaments. But, you know, our. Our CEO's perspective was we don't need to play an origin story, at least not overtly, right? Because the origin.

It wasn't Differentiating in many of the categories that you play in, origin is an essential part of the story. But for origin to be.

Truly differentiating, you really got to understand origin stories. You got to be, you know, an aficionado of sorts. At what point do kind of category do you think category prerequisites, category codes are limiting.

And, or.

I guess, useful.

[A]

I would make the distinction of understanding deeply and valuing the origin, the provenance of the craft and how much space does it take in your communication. And frankly, that's a great point for which stakeholders. Going back to our conversation on whiskey, I may not have a ton of comms around the liquid. However, when I'm speaking to bartenders, I definitely talk a lot about the liquid. I definitely explain at length what about flavor profiles, flavor mapping and so forth. However, I think when I was talking about my inspiration from luxuries, valuing the product that you're selling very much.

And having that be your backbone, you're certain that what you're doing is that valuable product that comes from that place that is made with such care, I think is reassuring and it gives the organization confidence, not just the marketers, everybody. I mean, we talk at the edge of 29,000 brand builders, but I think there's real value in that concept because marketers cannot be present in every single touch point. Oftentimes it would be sales teams or other people in the organization. How do you know that when they go out and about and do their jobs, they have such care and attention for that executional detail?

[B]

Because they are absolutely. Because they love the brand or protecting.

[A]

Because they love the brand. Yeah.

[B]

And I don't mean your people, but broadly. And, you know, Kofi Amou Gottfried, you know, said on early episode of the show, you know, brand is everyone's responsibility.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You've been so generous with your time and your thinking and your brain. I wanna, I wanna ask you a last question before, before we say goodbye, which is not at Diageo, but speaking broadly, what do you think can get in the way of marketing? Marketing, I acknowledge, as I ask this question, I have to interrupt myself because while many things can get in the way of marketing delivering against its growth mission, what do you think kind of the big two or three watch outs are organizationally, internally, externally?

[A]

I think, look, some of the short term pressures can get in the way. Interestingly, you have to respond to them, you cannot ignore them.

But what's in my mind is you have to be able to deliver on those whilst keeping your head high and looking further out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The lack of foresight.

Either because you're not equipped or because you're trapped in some form of short term could get in the way. And so I would encourage every marketer to ensure that whatever's going on in their world, they keep very present. What is it that only you can do for that business? Because when it is about having the consumer very present, being able to deliver on what consumers need in you, whichever industry you're working at, only you can do and make sure that you bring that to the business every single day.

[B]

Perfect place to end. Christina Diaz, Andino, thank you so much for being with us and to our listeners and our watchers, thank you for being with us. As I am prone to say, smash that subscribe button. If you like the show, please do give it a rating as I should be looking at K camera, not at you, but whatever. You know, our audience knows to expect nothing from me. That's how other people find the show. We appreciate you. We'll see you next time.

[A]

Thank you again. My pleasure.