The one with Hasbro CMO Jason Bunge about resetting marketing muscle memory, how to feed the appetite for investment, and his favorite metric to hate.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing – Episode with Hasbro CMO Jason Bunge

Release Date: April 30, 2025

Introduction

In this insightful episode of The CEO’s Guide to Marketing, hosted by Seth Matlins of Forbes, Jason Bunge, the first-ever Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) at Hasbro, delves into his journey of redefining marketing strategies within the iconic toy giant. Released on April 30, 2025, this conversation unpacks Bunge’s approach to resetting marketing muscle memory, fostering investment appetite, and his candid views on marketing metrics.

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1. The Inception of a Trailblazer: Hiring the First CMO at Hasbro

Host: “You come into Hasbro two years ago, the first CMO in their hundred plus year history...” [00:06]

Jason Bunge: Reflects on his hiring, emphasizing that the initial motive from the C-suite was to act as an accelerant for growth amid a declining toy industry. He notes, “...the marketing discipline at Hasbro... really needed to think about it more as a modern organization...” [00:50]

Key Insights:

• Legacy vs. Modern Marketing: Hasbro was grappling with outdated marketing practices that required modernization.
• Capability Gap: The C-suite recognized a need for advanced marketing strategies to stimulate growth.

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2. Defining Marketing's Role in Hasbro’s Turnaround

Host: “...the way you look at the company is the business has three parts...” [05:28]

Jason Bunge: Breaks down Hasbro’s business segments—toys, physical games, and digital business—each in different growth stages requiring tailored marketing approaches. He emphasizes, “...what is marketing’s role?... get someone to shelf and then get them to convert.” [12:12]

Key Insights:

• Segment-Specific Strategies: Different business units demand distinct marketing tactics.
• Demand Generation Focus: Prioritizing actions that directly influence sales and shelf presence.

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3. Emphasizing Product Excellence Over Brand Aesthetics

Host: “...nothing kills a bad product faster than good marketing...” [04:02]

Jason Bunge: Affirms that great products are foundational, stating, “no amount of great marketing can save any type of bad product.” He stresses the importance of innovation in product development to complement marketing efforts. [09:00]

Key Insights:

• Product Quality: Ensuring product excellence is paramount; marketing amplifies success but cannot compensate for poor products.
• Innovation as a Cornerstone: Continuous product innovation is essential for sustained growth.

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4. Innovating Marketing Strategies: Embracing Digital Platforms

Host: “...GE's marketing needed to be as innovative as their products...” [13:10]

Jason Bunge: Discusses the necessity of marketing innovation, citing Hasbro’s late entry into platforms like TikTok. He shares, “...we worked directly with them. We did a campaign in 72 hours around Ouija board and Halloween... all in the spirit of learning what we could do quickly.” [14:06]

Key Insights:

• Experimentation: Rapid testing and iteration on new platforms to discover effective strategies.
• Internal Capabilities: Building in-house expertise to leverage digital tools effectively.

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5. Shifting from Vanity Metrics to Data-Driven Decision Making

Host: “...most briefs absolutely suck...” [08:44]

Jason Bunge: Criticizes the reliance on vanity metrics like impressions, declaring, “impressions... doesn't matter.” Instead, he advocates for metrics that reflect true impact, such as return on ad spend and revenue per marketer. [36:21]

Key Insights:

• Meaningful Metrics: Focusing on data that directly correlates with business outcomes.
• Eliminating Noise: Disregarding superficial metrics to concentrate on what truly drives performance.

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6. Positioning Marketing as an Investment, Not an Expense

Host: “I think it's the expense nomenclature fact...” [18:31]

Jason Bunge: Engages in a dialogue about redefining marketing as an investment rather than a mere expense. He emphasizes the importance of articulating returns to secure investment approval, stating, “...we started to do iteration and testing on TikTok... innovation, which is experimentation.” [20:05]

Key Insights:

• Language Matters: Framing marketing expenditures as investments to align with financial perspectives.
• Return on Investment (ROI): Demonstrating tangible and intangible returns to justify marketing spend.

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7. Collaborating with the C-Suite: Building Credibility and Trust

Host: “...Rich Stoddard, who is our chairman, is incredibly supportive...” [22:06]

Jason Bunge: Highlights the importance of strong relationships with the CEO and CFO. He shares strategies for building credibility, such as providing clear constraints and focusing on measurable outcomes. [30:07]

Key Insights:

• Transparency and Communication: Keeping the C-suite informed with data-backed insights and clear expectations.
• Aligned Objectives: Ensuring that marketing goals are in sync with overall business objectives.

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8. Balancing Diverse Marketing Capabilities Across Business Units

Host: “You got to have A plus marketers...” [28:49]

Jason Bunge: Discusses the challenge of managing different marketing needs across Hasbro’s varied business segments. He advocates for hiring specialists over generalists to address specific requirements effectively. [28:50]

Key Insights:

• Specialized Expertise: Employing marketers with specialized skills tailored to each business unit’s unique challenges.
• Iterative Approach: Continuously refining strategies based on feedback and performance data.

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9. Encouraging Proactive Marketing and Developing a Point of View

Host: “...you must have a point of view...” [35:35]

Jason Bunge: Encourages marketers to proactively develop and communicate their perspectives through activities like writing white papers. He asserts, “you must have a point of view. You must proactively communicate it.” [37:42]

Key Insights:

• Thought Leadership: Establishing authority and guiding the organization’s marketing direction through proactive insights.
• Setting Expectations: Clearly defining what marketing can achieve to foster alignment and support.

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10. Final Thoughts: Embracing Risk and Driving Demand Generation

Host: “Risk is...” [44:28]

Jason Bunge: Concludes by emphasizing that risk in marketing is synonymous with lacking a clear point of view. He stresses that marketing should be seen as the best demand generation tool, countering the myth that a great product alone will drive success. [44:53]

Key Insights:

• Clear Strategic Vision: Minimizing risk by maintaining a well-defined marketing strategy.
• Demand Generation Leadership: Positioning marketing as the primary driver of business growth and demand.

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Notable Quotes

• “Nothing kills a bad product faster than good marketing.” – Jason Bunge [04:02]
• “Marketing is the best demand generation tool you're going to have at the company.” – Jason Bunge [44:53]
• “You must have data, you must be transparent, and you must be proactive with a point of view.” – Jason Bunge [35:35]

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Conclusion

In this compelling episode, Jason Bunge shares his transformative journey at Hasbro, emphasizing the pivotal role of strategic, data-driven marketing in driving growth and innovation. His insights offer invaluable guidance for CMOs and business leaders aiming to elevate their marketing practices and align them with overarching business objectives. By advocating for specialized expertise, proactive strategies, and transparent communication, Bunge underscores the evolving nature of marketing as a critical investment for sustained business success.

Transcript

[Jason]

Foreign.

[Unknown Host]

You come into Hasbro two years ago, the first CMO in their hundred plus year history, and I'm wondering what your CEO, CFO and the rest of the C suite were thinking about why they needed to hire a chief marketing officer in that moment and, and maybe what your interpretation of their definition of marketing was.

[Jason]

Yeah, it's interesting. About six to nine months ago, Chris Cox, who's our CEO, we were catching up on some things and as I've gotten to know him better and better, we've just gotten, you know, I think, more informal with how we kind of interact. And one of the things he said to me was, hey, I think we hired you for the wrong reasons.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, there's an insight.

[Jason]

Yeah. And I think if I look back, I chuckled and we kind of laughed about it and didn't really get into it more deeply, but I think what I took away from that and I think what he meant was, and it's a more direct answer to your question, what they were looking for when I was hired originally, I think was an accelerant for growth. Right. The toy business at Hasbro was in decline. That was an industry kind of wide phenomena. Hasbro definitely had some owned goals and it's a classic turnaround situation. And I think the marketing discipline at Hasbro, I would say, needed some rust to dust it off at a minimum, but also really needed to think about it more as a modern organization, which it just wasn't at the time.

[Unknown Host]

And that was something that Chris and, and the rest of the organization grasped intuitively.

[Jason]

I, I think they acknowledged it as a capability gap more than anything else. I think if you probed them at the time, and this included members of his directs that are no longer there and some that were hired around the same time I was. So you had this interesting mixture of legacy Hasbro thinking and that's not bad or good, it's just legacy. Then you had this other element of very new thinking. And everyone, I think to a person, and this is something that was important to me to listen for, is, well, what is the value of marketing to you as an individual? And I think they all kind of talked about it at the brand level. They talked about it as demand generation. And so they started to get into detail. They're like, okay, like they do care. But as soon as you got beyond that, there was definitely huge gaps around what is good marketing. How do I know it's good marketing? And so you fast forward to that comment that, that I mentioned that he made to me. I think what he realized Is yes, we care about. We have a brand portfolio that is frankly second to none in the. In that business. We have consumers around the world that love those brands. But it's not just enough to tell someone why Monopoly is great or Nerf is great or Peppa Pig is great. What Chris started to think about, I think more was the accelerant of growth on the other parts of the portfolio. So that's magic, the gathering. It's our new video games that will be coming next year. And I think he's starting to understand a deeper role for marketing to play in that beyond just great product. So he and I also come back. Come from a different. Or. Sorry, he and I come from a similar background in terms of heavy on the tech side.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Jason]

What that means in marketing, in my experience is it's product led, product driven, and marketing is very much in service of that. Of that entity. And that's. That's great.

[Unknown Host]

Which in its own way. And, and you know, we've talked about this on the show before, but there's something about the way you articulated it. Cpg. Right. Which, you know, is. Is really in many respects where marketing started. Except if you go back to the stone age and, you know, the creation of tools, but was the same way. Right. It's always about the product. As, as Bill Bernbock said, nothing kills a bad product faster than good marketing. Though he's used the word advertising. I'm updating him. So that's not unusual per se. Because what do you do with a bad product exactly?

[Jason]

Well, it sits on a shelf or it goes. Gets depleted inventory.

[Unknown Host]

And you kind of write, it never returns.

[Jason]

It never returns.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason]

I mean, my first reaction to the toy business, and I say this to Tim Kilpin, who runs that, who's spent 40 years, his entire career in the toy business, is a. Basically a leg. I said, oh, you guys are the product team. He says, no, no, no, no. He's like, we're marketers. We're brand owners. Like, no, I know, I know, but you guys make the product. And it was just that initial lens that I came to the company with, which is. And it was in reverence of. It was an acknowledgement of how important it is to have great product. Which is exactly what you said. Because my experience is no amount of great marketing can save any type of bad product. And I think every marketer understands that. But there is this interesting element in the CPG space that I've learned, which is, well, if I have a good brand that can overshadow any, any kind of shortcomings on the product side.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I mean, it can't save a bad product, but it can absolutely accelerate and differentiate a commodity product.

[Jason]

Yep, for sure. And I just think as we've grown even in the last two years as a company and we think about our future, I think we're reexamining what it means to support brand. We have 15 to 20 toy brands in a given year. And that's just the toy side of the house. Even with, you know, we have a healthy budget, so to speak, on the A and P side. But there's no world in which we can do 15 to 20. Evergreen always on campaigns to do brand. Right. So we've got to figure out different ways to support those products.

[Unknown Host]

Well, that's going to bring me back later, but let's. I don't want to forget to both your definition and maybe the C suite's definition of what good marketing is, because campaign is just an element of that. But I actually, I want to stick with something that you started to allude to, which is the way you look at the company is the business has three parts and each of those parts, if I remember correctly, it's toys, physical games, and a growing digital business is in a different stage. Toys is in a bit of turnaround. Digital is the future. Physical games is growing quite rapidly because each is in a different stage. Each has different needs from and for marketing and different problems that marketing can solve and or opportunities it creates. Again, being the first CMO at an organization that intuited that marketing could play a role, how have you, for lack of a better word, and it sounds far more pedantic than I intend it to, how have you taught your organization to understand that not all CMOs are the same and not all marketing is the same because a lot of chief executives, a lot of CFOs who don't have the background, you don't understand that.

[Jason]

Yeah, it's. I'm trying to think of a succinct way to maybe parse that out. One of the things I believe deeply in, particularly when you're starting a new organization, are you're and you're inheriting different pieces. What you're also inheriting is muscle memory and behaviors which again, not good or bad.

[Unknown Host]

It's just what, what organizational muscle and.

[Jason]

Deep within a marketer's muscle memory is also, and as I've done it my whole career, if you stayed in a certain category, even a certain company over a period of time, you just, you adopt a certain way of approaching problems. And in order to do what you just articulated across three different parts of a portfolio, you basically have to completely reset your memory and muscle memory. So what does that mean? And how did we do that? It's a little bit on. I think part of the role of a CMO in that regard, at least one that I've learned how to do somewhat well, is you must provide clear constraints. And constraints can certainly be very tactical, things like budget, but more importantly, I actually think they are. And this will sound also maybe a bit pedantic and boring, but you got to have a better brief.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. At all. Always.

[Jason]

We really did not excel at articulating problem statements in brief form, which is basically saying, as you well know, can you clearly articulate a problem statement in a concise way in a single sentence or two with a very clear audience and a very clear business outcome? Um, and for most of our portfolio, we were unable to do that.

[Unknown Host]

So, which, I mean, it's worth interrupting. I'm sorry. Because you're an excellent company. Right. We've talked a lot about this within the Forbes CMO network, which is. And you know, having been a strategist on the agency side, most briefs absolutely suck. And. And it, it's. It so quickly becomes that Alice in Wonderland line, which is, if you don't know where you're going, all roads lead there, or some version of that. It's just, it's one of marketing's biggest problem problems, I think categorically and globally is getting to a brief that is solving for problems, not symptoms. But I digress.

[Jason]

No, I agree. And look, it's. We have an amazing brand portfolio, so think about our strengths to your point, like, amazing brand portfolio. We have incredibly passionate marketers who work on those brands. We have really good innovation across the portfolio in toy board games.

[Unknown Host]

And then from a product perspective.

[Jason]

From a product perspective. So if you think about Hasbro's history, and I think the toy industry in general, like, innovation wins, like innovation wins hands down. It doesn't matter how much marketing or little marketing you do. If the innovation is hit with kids and parents, then you're going to win. And Hasbro has had a streak of that over decades and decades, and we still do. So then you, to your original question, you have to think about like, well, what is the role of marketing? And I think, you know, the three areas that you mentioned. On the toy side, what I've come to realize is a truism, I think that Tim tried to instill in me early, which is, look, like consumers make the purchase decision within 45 seconds at shelf. And still much of the toy business that long?

[Unknown Host]

I mean actually that that surprises actually.

[Jason]

Yeah, it's longer than you even might think is even reasonable. But it's that that point. It's about packaging and it's about price and it's about what your kid may or may not be pointing at. Marketing certainly has a role pre shelf exposure.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, can I ask a question?

[Jason]

Yeah, of course.

[Unknown Host]

Which is having spent a lot of time in CPG in my, in my history, you know, think a lot about shelf and shelf placements and so on and category management. When you're designing shelf sets, are you designing, are you considering kids eye height or parents eye height and is I'm obviously Monopoly isn't going to be kids eye height but if you're selling something to a 8 year old, whose eye are you trying to capture on shelf?

[Jason]

Well, it's interesting. We're if you've ever been to a Toya recently at Target or a Walmart, hopefully what there's there's ends of a spectrum. One end of the spectrum is like it's a complete mess and it's just the nature of toys to be picked up and put back and it's all put in the wrong places and so that's okay. The other end of the spectrum though is brand blocking, like true brand blocking. And I think we're getting better at that. So to your question, we actually want to do it for both. Right. So as we think about key price points, value price points, super important to consumers, that's obviously got to resonate with the parent, you know, line of sight, eye level, et cetera. At the same time we want things to be easily discoverable by kids, toddlers, you know, four and up. And also of course the retailer cares a lot about what moves and what doesn't. So as you think about the confluence of those things, we're usually able to get to a pretty decent planogram as it relates to kind of retail space. I will also say though, you know, for us what tends to work and I think the category is out of vial placement. Promotional elements work a ton.

[Unknown Host]

If it's on the floor, it's out the door.

[Jason]

100%. Yeah, 100%. So again as you think about that context, what is the role of marketing? And I think not wrongly, but I think brand leaders tend to always want to support the brand, whether that's Plato or Marvel or Transformers etc. And that's great. Those are amazing brands. Obviously Marvel's Marvel's our partner Disney brand. But I think what we're thinking through is in the limited world of resources that we have, really the number one job of marketing is to actually get someone to shelf and then get them to convert. And if they happen to have brand esthetics along the way, great. But at the end of the day, toy in hand is the best thing you can do for your brand.

[Unknown Host]

I want to go back to something you said about innovation. Innovation wins was, was with the words used, you've been defining it within the context of product. I'm. I'm reminded of something that Linda Buff shared in a previous episode of the show where, where she said that, you know, when she was CMO at GE, that she recognized that GE's marketing needed to be as innovative as their products and services were, as the company was. Right company founded by Edison. Have you had, whether at Hasbro or, or anywhere else in your career, have you had moments where, and I'm sure you have, you know, that you can share with the audience where the CEO, cfo, the C suite did not understand the role of marketing innovation and where they just got in the way of the growth that marketing is intended to accelerate?

[Jason]

Yeah, I think good examples. I mean, and they do get tactical pretty fast. I think one of the things that surprises me, you know, as I allegedly get older and wiser here, is, well, you're definitely getting older, definitely getting older. That's not allegedly, maybe allegedly wiser, but the is how quickly very, very senior executives, including the board, like to get tactical. So the example on that would be, you know, at Hasbro, the funniest thing was when I started in the first board meeting is like, hey, when are we going to be on TikTok? And certainly no one out there would say TikTok at the time was innovative. But the reality is we just didn't have a strong presence on that particular platform. And again, for me, coming from games and tech, I'm used to direct relationships with those platforms. And I think a lot of the kind of internal strategic thinking on innovation for marketing was being outsourced to agencies. Now, to be super clear, we have amazing agency partners and they bring a ton of value to the table that is incremental beyond what we can do ourselves.

[Unknown Host]

Sure.

[Jason]

Having said that, I don't believe in outsourcing strategy. And so one of the things that innovative marketing means to me is do you have the capabilities internally that know how to best use a platform? So we started to do iteration and testing on TikTok. We worked directly with them. We did a campaign in 72 hours around Ouija board and Halloween. I mean some of it was silly, some of it was fun, but it was all in the spirit of learning what we could do quickly.

[Unknown Host]

I like the way you tied Ouija board and spirit together. Well played.

[Jason]

Some of intentional. So it's intentional. And so that to me as much as anything else is innovation, which is experimentation. And I think that that muscle to the previous point made is just not something that I think Hasbro's traditionally had to exercise. And it's interesting. It's not even just the toy side. If you think about Magic the Gathering, an incredibly successful business, you I know.

[Unknown Host]

Are aware that I created with with the folks at Wizards of the coast the Magic the Gathering pro tour in 1994.

[Jason]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. It's amazing that that fr.

[Jason]

Continue such an excellent job. That's 30.

[Unknown Host]

They were genius. They were absolute genius.

[Jason]

Well, and it's, you know, so for us and you know, you can listen to obviously our earnings report this morning. Like it's. It's a business that continues to grow among a fan base that is increasingly becoming passionate. The reason I mentioned that, do people leave that franchise?

[Unknown Host]

Do people grow out of it?

[Jason]

You know, it's interesting. It's. It's not dissimilar to my experience with League of Legends when I was at Riot, which is a.

[Unknown Host]

Let me interrupt you and actually use that moment to share with the audience a little bit about your cv. So I mentioned up front that Jason is the first CMO at hasbro joining in 2023 where he leads a global team across media, entertainment, brand retail, digital marketing strategy across all of Hasbro's global brand franchises. Before Hasbro, he brought a couple of decades of not to age you. You know, I apologize for me it would be a few decades of marketing experience and focus in particular in gaming and technology. He was an just started to allude to it. The also the first CMO at Riot Games, publisher of among other iconic titles League of Legends. He was the SB SVP of brand management and marketing for Electronic Arts. Began his career. Is it weird that I'm talking about you like this? Began his career in advertising at Saatchi and Saatchi was at Microsoft for 10 years leading product marketing and among oh by the way leading product marketing for the launch of Office365. So I do have some things I need fixed which we'll talk about after. Like I keep getting these phantom emails. It's making me freaking crazy. And among other accolades, Jason was very recently speaking of innovation and marketing, innovation in particular named to the 2025 Forbes entrepreneurial CMO50 list. So congrats on that so much. Well done. Back to you, sir, and your experience at Riot Games you were talking about.

[Jason]

Well, I think it was your question, which is a really good one. And some of these entertainment franchises, and I think Magic is one of them, League is one of them, there are many others. Over decades, they have built a core audience that I think suspends a little bit of disbelief around traditional product on the consumer side, which means growth is going to come internally. And it's a content game. So in Magic and League, while they are not the same type of product, obviously one's a video game, one's kind of a collectible card game. The core franchise and the core fan base act very similarly. They care deeply about the brand. They care deeply about the community around that brand. Part of marketing's role in that is to sort of get out of the way and not interfere with what that community is going to do with their brand. And that's 100% needs to be true. The other part of it, though, and the reason I brought it up in the beginning, is marketing's never really had a role with that particular business. It's not necessarily needed to. And I'd. I'd say my experience at Riot, and I mean, amazingly super smart people, Mark and Brandon, amazing co founders, I think similarly, you know, it wasn't necessarily a struggle. I think it was, and it wasn't even skepticism, it was questioning around what is the role of marketing? Why do we need to spend dollars? And at the end of the day, we all know that marketing is an expenditure of capital.

[Unknown Host]

I think we would say an investment of capital.

[Jason]

It is.

[Unknown Host]

Do you disagree?

[Jason]

I don't disagree. I think the pragmatist in me, and I think in order to, and I'm happy to be wrong on this, but I think in order to not sound too idealistic with a cfo, CEO and others, I think you have to call it what it is, which is an expenditure of capital.

[Unknown Host]

See, let's. All right, let's. Let's. Because I'm going to push back. I think, in fact, that you have to more, more often than not teach them that it's an investment of capital. And capital being, you know, economic, financial, human, in. Because an expense. If. If we were talking about the automotive category before we started recording, you know, I spend that money on a car, it depreciates the moment I drive it off. Here, the investment is such that there should be, at least over time and in time, more than a one to one return. Just the way I invest in equities out in my personal life. And so I think, I think it's, I think it's the expense nomenclature fact keeps a lot of CEOs, CFOs, and others who don't understand marketing from understanding it and seeing it as an investment that sometimes pays off right now and sometimes pays off later. Push back on that.

[Jason]

No, I, it's, I, I factually, I completely agree. I think my reaction, and again, it's, it's, as I've learned I am more than happy to be wrong is I tend to focus my time on maybe that other half which is articulating the return.

[Unknown Host]

Yes. Okay.

[Jason]

And so I sort of, and again, like I'm deeply pragmatic on many things to a fault. My pragmatism says, like I'm not going to debate you on the expense part. Yes, it's X hundreds of millions of dollars a year that we spend as a marketing organization at a certain, at whatever company. I've been in the conversation though, like you kind of can get lost in that, in that, a little bit of that debate. I think quickly shifting to, you know, whether it's return on ad spend, return on investing capital, whatever nomenclature that you know that your, your audience wants to use. It's just, it's, it's proven to be a far more fruitful ground to play on. Now. The other reason I focus there is, I'm sure your own experience what return needs to look like. And you mentioned lifetime, a lot of CFOs, I mean they certainly are smart enough to understand the concept, but there's a lot of skepticism on a marketer saying like, hey, spend a dollar today and you get $3 back in three years. It's just, I think it's just for them, it suspends disbelief a little bit. So the other thing that I think I've found at least, and Blake Jorgensen, who is the CFO at ea, I think really instilledness in me and Gina Getter, who's our CFO at Hasbro also I think is a, is really representative of this thinking. There's no shortage of appetite to invest and I'll go back and they will, they will actually use that word. But it must be grounded in a return. It must be grounded in or at least a potential return a hundred percent. And I think the credibility part. And again, going back to one of your earlier questions, the role of marketing oftentimes at least for me recently, almost always starts and ends with what do I get for it? And I think entering that conversation from a brand standpoint, I think gets you into trouble pretty fast.

[Unknown Host]

I couldn't agree more. And I think a lot of CMOs make the mistake of forgetting that they are building brand because of its strategic role in driving business.

[Jason]

Yeah, right.

[Unknown Host]

Building brand isn't an objective.

[Jason]

It's a strategy, 100%. And I think, you know, again, in my, my personal experience, you know, and with certainly the Hasbro board, who's incredibly supportive. Rich Stoddard, who is our chairman, is incredibly supportive, and he's an ex marketer. Yeah. He knows the value of the craft, but also in the context of his role on the board, it has to actually deliver economic value and sense for shareholders. And so, you know, as I talk about with my team, your framing of any topic must start with impact on top line or impact on bottom line, or both. Right. So we think about things like, what is revenue per marketer? How do we scale an organization?

[Unknown Host]

Revenue per marketer. Interesting.

[Jason]

Yeah, we started to think about. And look, we talked also earlier about using ChatGPT. I mean, it's one of the many, many things it's great at of the deep research it's been able to do for helping set benchmarks that are believable. Right. So the other thing that I think technology is getting us towards a little bit faster is a lot of like, removing hypothetical debates on like, well, what is an appropriate benchmark? Well, here's actually some pretty deep research that around 15 to 20 million dollars per marketer for an organization of our size and the category that we're in is considered, you know, optimal. And it's great. If we're above that, we should feel good now. It's not paint by numbers. So we don't kind of just, you know, blindly follow that. But it starts to reframe the conversation. So the other thing that I think I've, I've tried to do is I'm trying to remove the number of variables that stay variable. I want to focus on things that can be very specific and consistent, if that makes sense, so that, hey, we'll come back to it every year. But I don't want to debate these other things. I want to remove as much of that variability as possible.

[Unknown Host]

That's really interesting. Give us a but make it tactical.

[Jason]

Tell us totally size of organization. Hey, Jason, too many marketers, a lot of CEOs will say that. I mean, and even when I've not Been cmo. And I reported Chris Bruzo, who's fantastic as a mentor and was a boss ea.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Jason]

You know, he would certainly talk about a lot of the pressure he was under. And you know, what is the right number of marketers for any organization? Size, you know, Hasbro or. We're at about 5 billion revenue. How big should the marketing work be? 50, 100, 300? There actually is no real benchmarking or kind of clear answer to that question, but that's.

[Unknown Host]

But I wonder if it's the wrong question.

[Jason]

Oh, agree.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jason]

But I think that goes to the point of I want to take that off the table. I actually don't want to have a debate about headcount. Well, some of it is. And everyone goes through this at their own company, some of it is. Right. Sizing in. And this is investment because fixed costs are investments for sure. What are the internal capabilities you want to be great at? I think you have to be able to answer that first. Right. Because the other hypothetical debate you don't want to get into is it's to your point. It's not even about the number. It's about what do you want to be great at internally. And then as you decide that and you align with your CEO and whoever else you need to align with on that, that affords you the ability to take the next step, which is, well, here's how many of that capability I think I need. Here's why that's important. Here's the value that delivers to the company. And then you have to again and again, this is just me, but you bring in the pragmatism again. I know what our people costs are as a company. I know what percent is finance. I know what percent is hr. I know what percent is marketing. And I think you have to have the ability to kind of read the room a little bit. And this maybe gets into a little bit of like the, you know, just experience side of things to say, like, we're a little hot, you know. And yes, there are benchmarks like mark revenue per marketer that you can use to help guide you. But if you can get that to a point where the CEO stares back at you and says, like, I think there's too many marketers. And you say, well, actually, Chris, like, here are the things that we want to be great at. Here are the things that we're going to make some changes around. Here's where we think we end up. And actually, here's the ultimate savings to the company from efficiency standpoint. The conversation then shifts to the other stuff, which is more important, which is like, well, what is the dollars doing for the company? Right.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's what I was, I was just going to ask about that, which is, you know, you just ended that piece kind of talking about the ultimate efficiency. Of course the other side is the incremental effectiveness. Right. You know what I hear is you operating as a business person, which strikingly, stunningly sometimes needs to be explained to CMOs and other marketers that they are in fact business people with an expertise in marketing, not marketers per se. But I want to, I want to ask you a follow up question you talked about and I love the language that you use. You know, what are the internal capabilities you want to be great at? You know, back to our conversation about briefs. Those internal capabilities are strategies. Right. Strategic strengths or competencies rather that that. Well, hopefully they're strengths that are based on what you're trying to achieve back to the point that you've got within the company three businesses that are in different phases. Feels like you'd have a whole ton of things that you need to be great at which at least on the surface would suggest gotta grow bigger because you need different capabilities for turnaround, for fast growth and for future proofing a business. How do you balance that?

[Jason]

Yeah, I, I'm, I probably, Yeah. I shouldn't pretend to have like some perfect answer to that. I think it's, I'm a big believer in iteration. Meaning. Yeah, like my general way that I work is I think out a lot, a lot. Which is meant to both be transparent, but it's also meant to as a conversation mechanism to basically get feedback constantly. Because I, as you know, my wife tells me all the time I am wrong a lot. And, and I like to own that. But I think for me, my wife.

[Unknown Host]

Told me that a lot too and that's why we got divorced. Just kidding. Eva.

[Jason]

But it does, but yes, it's it, it's it age, it's, it helps you gain some wisdom because I think what iteration allows you to do is just see some of the paths you should have or should not have taken.

[Unknown Host]

But so back.

[Jason]

But to your question, like I don't have a perfect answer for kind of what that ultimately looks like. I, I think what I can say and every single marketing leader has his or her own I think belief system. Of course, one of mine is I do actually subscribe to the philosophy of hiring A plus marketers for very specific capabilities and hiring as few of them as possible.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jason]

For many, many reasons.

[Unknown Host]

And so you're looking for specialists, not generalists or 100. Yeah.

[Jason]

Okay. Yeah. Well, I'd say. Yeah. And again, like, do you think of.

[Unknown Host]

Yourself as a specialist or a generalist?

[Jason]

I don't think CMOs can be specialists.

[Unknown Host]

Not anymore.

[Jason]

I think as Mark, as a. If I think about my career, I absolutely was in specialties. I absolutely. You had to. Right. I think in order to be an effective generalist, you actually have to know the specialties.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. To think horizontally, you have to understand vertically 100.

[Jason]

And, you know, I think you said something around, you know, CMOs with business mindset. I think it's interesting sometimes there's permission for that internally and sometimes there isn't. I will say, you know, because it's worth saying and important to say, one of the things that did bring me to Hasbro and has certainly kept me going and nourishes me every day is the support I get from the C suite. Chris, our CEO, is an amazingly supportive leader for marketing and he's hard on it. Like he expects a lot, deservedly. Gina is an amazing cfo. She's. I could not ask for a better partner, you know, from a finance standpoint, but. Or not, but I should say. And she's really hardcore about the dollars that go out the door for the company and what are they doing in the best interests of the business.

[Unknown Host]

What's her time frame? And we don't need to make it about Gina necessarily. But again, you know, the. The battle between short and long and how much marketing over the last two decades has become so singularly focused on the immediate term at the expense of anything longer. How have you found conversations where, you know, maybe today there isn't a one to one return, even if we're not talking about LT value, there is a return six months hence.

[Jason]

Yeah. I think in. In, you know, as she'll probably listen to this, you can definitely disagree with me. But what I would say is, you know, again, we started Gina, you can.

[Unknown Host]

Come on to rebut.

[Jason]

That would be great, actually.

[Unknown Host]

That would be great.

[Jason]

She would love to. We started the same time. So. The other thing that was interesting is she didn't come with a ton of baggage to the table from like a Hasbro specific standpoint, but obviously a market.

[Unknown Host]

Did she come from a marketing centric Harley Davidson? Yeah. So very brand centric.

[Jason]

So. And she was a gentleman before. So she definitely understands the importance of brand. And I think what excited her about Hasbro certainly is the portfolio. It's our push into digital and things that will be new for her, I would say curiosity, frankly. And this is how you build relationships with any human. But showing curiosity, I think early on in terms of, well, what is important to you. Gina, I think she'll say things like, hey, I want to make sure we're doing what we say we're going to do. Like, oh, okay, I like that. That's something. Hey, our toy business is in turnaround. I have to be able to show progress to the street in a quarter to quarter basis. Okay, I understand that. Hey, I understand video games is our future from a growth perspective. I don't have a lot of experience there. I need to understand what is investment. I'll use that word because she will as well. What does investment need to look like? I don't have a good sense as to what is required for marketing to launch our first video game. So you do that over two years and you just, you build credibility. And I think a conversation language where. And again, I think there's still more to do, of course, but trust starts to form that, hey, you understand that when you're spending a dollar on a toy business, I got to share returns in the quarter. As I think about investment from a longer term standpoint, the video game side. No, I don't know. I don't have to see those returns on a quarter, but I do need to understand because that's a considerable amount of money we're going to spend on the behalf of shareholders and the company. What am I going to get for it? So it's that kind of, it's not even pivoting. It's just malleability in terms of, hey, I understand the portfolio differences not just from like a brand different standpoint, audience difference, those are all important. And that's also why I have an amazing team. But from an internal dialogue standpoint, I have to show malleability on making sure I don't just apply a one size fits all to the very different parts of our business.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, we talked about that. And I actually love, I don't know if you were quoting her and it was her word or yours kind of interpretively, which is, you know, you got to show progress. And progress is such an interesting word that that can be subjectively interpreted. And it becomes incumbent, as you were just suggesting on the cmo to make sure that we don't have different definitions for what progress looks like any more than we do for what good looks like. But that, that is a fairly enlightened view and I think a rich, a rich topic for conversation internally. You've used the phrase that you don't have a perfect an a few times. And, and I think, I think there are very few perfect answers in today's world. We were actually talking about it last night and you know, you, you credited your wife with, you know, telling you you're wrong a lot. We're of course all wrong a lot because there is no crystal ball. The world is. All kinds of fucked up things move Today we talked about tariffs and the implications, you know, of that on your business. And so many businesses wildly beyond your control. And a different scenario day by day. How do you earn the permission? Not within Hasbro, but what's your advice to the marketers? Listening and maybe the C suite too, about having the permission to things up? Because things do get up and I want to just stop babbling and let you answer the question. But when I talk about things up, I'm not talking about missing the point that's not excusable, but missing the mark because that's inevitable.

[Jason]

Yeah, I, so there's. This is a great question and there's really three things I think I've learned that I've, I've started to communicate to fellow colleagues, team members, etc in the marketing space. So, and again, it's just my experience the three things are this, you must have data. So you cannot use your subjective opinion in any of these in this space and expect to be successful. You must find data, you must have data, and that's number one. Number two is you must be transparent. I think transparency sounds obvious and easy and in fact it actually is pretty easy. But I find surprisingly, even today it's either an inability or unwillingness or both on the part of marketers to be transparent about what's working and what isn't.

[Unknown Host]

Can I ask a question? The, the, the. Your point about transparency, I think ties directly to data, which is in saying that you must have data. And by the way, I do agree, but there is a presumption and expectation, I think implicit in that, that the data is infallible, that the data is in fact predictive rather than reflective of the past. And I think a lot of marketers are forced by what isn't understood within their organizations at the C Suite level to use data to prove a. They know the data doesn't prove shit, except it certainly doesn't prove attribution, incrementality. You know, the shorthand is vanity metrics. How do you reconcile those two things and how do you prepare yourself for when the data's wrong?

[Jason]

No, I agree. Yeah, I mean my general Rule of thumb, by the way, on marketing data. And it's. And my team will laugh at me at this. Other marketers might as well. We actually produce when I started a ton of marketing data clicks and click through rates and views and, and my, my, my, my favorite metric to hate and so my team's not allowed to use it is impressions.

[Unknown Host]

I hate it.

[Jason]

That doesn't matter.

[Unknown Host]

I hate meaningless.

[Jason]

Preach. So you and I are aligned. I won't allow them to use it because it doesn't mean anything and it's a bit of a lazy metric.

[Unknown Host]

And everyone out there, I just want to back to briefs. When I was, I was like, if we get a brief from a client that says they're trying to generate media impressions, I was like, send it back because it's meaningless. Yeah, it's a tree falls in the forest.

[Jason]

It is. And so, and so what that does to a marketing team is it frankly just lets. And this is kind of what I was alluding to a little bit earlier. When I say provide constraints, that's a constraint. You do not get to use impressions. So come back with something else that you think generates or illustrates efficacy of a particular program or campaign. But I also agree, you know, everyone's like, ah, like, you know, it didn't prove this out completely. Like I don't care if it's 60% directional. It is infinitely better than anything we had yesterday.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And I think there's, there is. And this goes to the third leg of the stool, if you will, to your other question. Your original question on this, which is. And this is marketers are just horrific at this at any place I've ever worked and I'll include myself for sure. You must be proactive with a point of view. You must be able to write down. And I, and this is like I don't care if it's old school or not. ChatGPT can help if you wanted to. But verbal not sufficient. You should write white papers almost every month about a particular topic, a particular problem statement, include the data. And what it does actually is it fills. I'm a big believer in filling the vacuum when it comes to marketing because a lot of times what marketers do is they're constantly reactive. Right. It's something happened in the marketplace, something happened to the business somewhat a C suite, someone else asked a certain question and it's reactive, reactive, reactive. So, and sometimes that's necessary, important. That's just part of the job. But if you're not carving out space to be proactive in your thinking about your capability, your discipline, your space, your business, whatever. Someone's going to fill that vacuum for you. And nine times out of 10, it's not going to be correct. So you must have a point of view. You must proactively communicate it. And then the other thing I just say is what that also does is it sets expectations for the company as to what they should get from marketing.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jason]

There is no better gift to a marketer than to have someone else react to your point of view on marketing. And it sounds so sillily. That's not a word. It sounds so simplistically silly. But I'm just telling you, it rarely happens. And my team, actually, my directs went through this and they probably didn't know why I was making them do. I was like, hey, you guys need to write white papers about your space. You get to pick the topic, but I need you to have a point of view. And they just, they did it and they're excellent. And they said, wow, this was actually great for me to do for myself. Like, yeah, great. And all of a sudden it starts to put points of views out there for marketing that the company just hadn't heard before. So the thinking is there. I have my direct reports are some of the best marketing leaders I've ever worked with. They are excellent at what they do. But I, I, my job is to help them get out of sometimes that reactive mode and, and be the amazing people they are because that's what the company needs them to be.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Yeah. I am reminded of two things. In fact, I, I will say I was a little daunted just myself by the thought of writing a white paper every month. And you know that that's a lot. But the value, regardless of its frequency, the value of those mom explicit what is oftentimes implicit. Right. It's the codification of what you're doing kind of reflexively and oftentimes reactively and allows you to kind of hold it up to the light and see if it, if it's still holds up to the light. The other thing I'm thinking about is something that Chris Davis, who's brand president and CMO at New Balance, your new Boston neighbor, said in his episode of, of the show, which is he looks at market his marketing budget as 50, 30, 20, 50% is tried and true. 30% if I'm getting it right. And he's going to let me know if I don't. If I'm getting it right is the import of tactics and strategy strategies and tactics that are working in Other categories, but he hasn't applied or seen applied within his. And 20% is what he calls high risk of strategic failure, which is. I don't expect much from it except learning. And then what it is, is a wash. Right. And in time, actions and impacts from the 20 move to the 30, which moves to the 50. Because the tried and true, as we discussed also last night, loses its relevancy in today's landscape.

[Jason]

I love that. Yeah, I love that.

[Unknown Host]

It's.

[Jason]

No, I think it's. I think the 20%. I think that's. I mean, that's amazing that, you know, and then you, you clearly have to work hard to get to that aperture. Right.

[Unknown Host]

I think people present ideas, by the way, telling him which bucket they want to draw from.

[Jason]

I think it's fantastic. We will steal that, most likely. I. I think we. And again, I think you asked the question earlier. You know, some of the stuff we've done with Tick Tock, I think we would say would come out of that 30. Like those are things that other. Other brands and other categories, perfect illustration. So why not bring that to our world? I think we. We're definitely not at 20. We're probably more like at 5ish. And it's. And I think. But there's an appetite. Right. And you know this. You talk to any smart marketer, it's irrespective of whether they're straight out of college or they've been in the industry or space for 25 years, there's all good ideas that they want to try. And I think the other thing that I love about that example is implicitly half of that is permission.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[Jason]

And I think a lot of times, and this is something that's not unique to any place I've been at. I've seen it everywhere. There's this interesting lack of belief of permission on the part of marketers to do those things. They're either worried about being wrong, they're worried about failing, fired. And look, we're all human, so risk is risk. But I think structuring it in that way probably helps a little bit mitigate some of the, like. No, no, no. Like, this is intentional. And that's another word I really think is important for marketers to think about is when you're intentional about those things, the end product is always much more vibrant and frankly, believable on the part of your stakeholders. Because it wasn't just like we stuck our finger in the air and tried something like, no, no, this is a strategy. So again, going back to. You could do that in a corner, it could be amazing. But no one will actually know about it. No one will know why. 20%, I don't even know what that means. You're wasting 20%. How are you doing that? So again, it's, you know, you think about the need to be proactive there. Like you, I'm sure Chris would say I've had to land this, like to make sure the company understands that this is a strategy for how we deploy, spend. It's all work. It takes time, to your point. But this is also something I think marketing in general just suffers from, which is taking the time and you know, it's the market, the marketing. But it's a little bit of like believing, building that credibility internally with your stakeholders. So I think that is a great example that we'll definitely steal.

[Unknown Host]

All right, so while that would have been in fact a beautiful place to end, we're not going to end quite yet. I want to ask you a handful of questions kind of in our, our Fill in the blank. Right, Fill in the blank. I want to start with, with the word you just used, which is risk from a marketing perspective. Risk is.

[Jason]

Risk is not having a point of view.

[Unknown Host]

From a marketer's perspective, a chief marketer's perspective, what do you wish the not marketing savvy experience, chief executive, CFO in our audience would understand most about what marketing is, does, can and cannot do do.

[Jason]

If I could wave a magic wand with any CEO, the first thing that must be true for them to believe is that marketing is the best demand generation tool you're going to have at the company. And if you believe, and the reason I say that, if a CEO believes that, truly believes, that you skip all kinds of skepticism steps and leads you straight towards like, like marketing is a demand generation tool, Jason. So great. Let's talk about how you're going to build programs that actually drives my business. Fantastic.

[Unknown Host]

It's a pretty simple framework, 100%. And so the CEO of the product driven company says no product. Is that what's your retort?

[Jason]

Yeah, and this could be another hour. I mean, it's interesting. I loved my time in tech and you know, work for some really great companies. Without question, very amazingly talented engineers would say very regularly, you know, hey, if I build it, they will come. Right? It's that classic kind of phrase. And it's a very real thing within, I think Silicon Valley in particular from a startup kind of standpoint where VCs as well, you know, it's, it's because for them it is an expenditure. Right. So if you think about the origins of the. If you build that, they will come. It's because VCs are not particularly interested in companies and their portfolio spending money on marketing. They want them focused on product. And you build network effects and all these other things without.

[Unknown Host]

But by the way, you just, I think just nailed it. Which is they don't understand that network effects are in fact marketing.

[Jason]

And that is, and that is the, the eye roll. I will typically give that statement and when you're a junior marketer is actually there's not a lot you can do about it. You're kind of stuck. I mean you can bring data and the other things I talked about. But, but that is a pretty deeply held belief in that community. So now in the, you know, with, with some more experience under my belt, I think the eye roll then comes also with, you know, either like, great, well, then you don't need marketing. And I wish you the very best of luck. And I think for me at this point in my career, and I'd say this for any marketer, frankly, at any time of their career, unless it's a brand they really are excited about, don't waste time working at a company that, that answers the question that way. Way.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, good counsel.

[Jason]

It's just not worth your time.

[Unknown Host]

Stop marketing. See what happens.

[Jason]

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's, and isn't that the greatest experiment of all? And I. Deprivation.

[Unknown Host]

It's got milk 100.

[Jason]

Yeah, I, I and we've seen countless examples where, and I think any, you know, any CMO or any marketer in the technology space will, will smile at this. It's just a cycle they'll have. They'll start with that mindset. Marketing will disappear, the business will decline and stagnate. And then it's like, oh gosh, I guess I need to market. And then you kind of just keep going back and forth. So, so look, I think the smartest companies out there understand kind of what I said around. It's a demand generation tool and as.

[Unknown Host]

You said, and a demand capture tool 100%.

[Jason]

And as we both said, that does not mean product is any less important. A great product has to start with a great product. We all know that. You said it. Great marketing does not mask bad products.

[Unknown Host]

All right, so here's the last question which is different than the one I would have asked. Choose Sophie's Choice here. Bad product, commodity product, good brand, great product, bad brand.

[Jason]

Like this is the, this is the judgment question. I'll pick the latter.

[Unknown Host]

I'd have picked the former. Why'd you pick the latter?

[Jason]

I picked the latter. And it's obviously the interpretation of the question. You can tell me I did this wrong, but I'll leave that to your wife. She'll listen to, like, ah, you chose poorly. No, I think. I think bad brand I can fix. Bad product, I can't.

[Unknown Host]

All right, that's a good answer. Actually, it kind of makes me reconsider my own.

[Jason]

Oh, well, you know, we're.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Iterative thinking.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. God, my ex wife is going to have something else to say. Jason, thank you so much.

[Jason]

Thank you for having me. This was absolutely a blast.

[Unknown Host]

It was great. And thank you to our audience for being with us for this episode of Forbes, the CEO's guide to marketing. As I remind you each time, smash that subscribe button. Give us five stars if it doesn't let you give us six. Thanks for being with us. We'll see you next time.