The one with HP Chief Marketing and Corporate Affairs Officer Antonio Lucio about following the money, the relationship between numbers and ideas, and the bottom-line consequences of defining marketing too narrowly.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing with Antonio Lucio

Release Date: February 27, 2025
Host: Seth Matlins, Managing Director of the Forbes CMO Network
Guest: Antonio Lucio, Chief Marketing and Corporate Affairs Officer at HP

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of The CEO’s Guide to Marketing, host Seth Matlins engages in a profound conversation with Antonio Lucio, the Chief Marketing and Corporate Affairs Officer at HP. With an illustrious career spanning top roles at Visa, Meta, and PepsiCo, Antonio brings a wealth of experience and a unique perspective on the evolving role of marketing in today’s business landscape.

The Role of Marketing in Leadership

Why Few CEOs Come from Marketing

Seth opens the discussion by posing a critical question: “Why so few boards, on a relative basis, have CMO representation?” [02:59]

Antonio responds by distinguishing between Consumer Packaged Goods (CPG) and non-CPG sectors:

“In the CPG world, it is all about the consumer and every effort begins and ends with her... In the non-CPG world, you're about invention, technology, science, discovery. The marketing function then becomes a service function to the overall business, making it less likely for CMOs to ascend to CEO roles.” [04:18]

Integration vs. Isolation in Marketing Functions

Antonio further elaborates on how marketing is structured differently across industries, emphasizing that in CPG companies, marketing leads product development and value proposition, whereas in tech companies, marketing often plays a supportive role focused on demand generation and brand building.

“When you reduce the marketing function to that specificity, it's very difficult to say this is the person that should run the company relative to the engineers.” [09:12]

Bridging the Gap Between Marketing and Business Strategy

Speaking the Language of Business

Seth delves into the necessity for CMOs to communicate effectively with the C-suite, using Antonio’s experience at Facebook as a case study.

“The conversation shifts. The problem, or the graveyard of CMOs is full of people that fail to understand that that is... They need to own the value of the brand.” [13:33]

Antonio shares a pivotal moment when pitching a marketing campaign to Mark Zuckerberg:

“We presented the idea, the strategy, and all that. He didn't know how to take it... So that night I... created a long-form document in his style, which resulted in a grateful note from him.” [15:26]

This illustrates the importance of tailoring communication to align with the CEO’s perspective and fostering mutual understanding.

Overcoming Misconceptions and Enhancing Internal Marketing

Addressing Misconceptions about Marketing

Antonio identifies a critical misconception:

“The same marketers that are outstanding at doing cluster analysis, finding insights, and one-on-one communications with consumers, are terrible at the internal piece. We neglect our internal constituents with the same level of care.” [22:29]

He stresses the need for marketing to encompass 360-degree responsibilities, ensuring both external and internal stakeholders are engaged and valued.

Internal Marketing as a Priority

Seth reinforces this by highlighting the necessity for CMOs to not only earn a seat at the table but also the permission to act effectively:

“Marketing needs a 360-degree approach. It’s not just about external branding but also about internal alignment and communication.” [23:46]

The CMO as the CEO of the Marketing Function

Understanding the CEO of the Function Role

When asked about the statement, “today's CMO has to be the CEO of the function,” Antonio explains:

“The CMO ensures that they have the best possible people, processes, and implementation strategies to deliver against business objectives.” [27:06]

He emphasizes that a CMO cannot be a subject matter expert in every marketing discipline but must lead and integrate diverse capabilities to drive business growth.

Adapting to Market Disruptions

Antonio highlights how disruptions like AI and hybrid workplaces present opportunities for marketing to redefine business strategies:

“Marketing can bring clarity into what a vision can be, how to service customers better, and make employees proud.” [29:50]

Defining Marketing and Brand

Marketing as a Business Strategy

In a reflective segment, Antonio succinctly defines marketing:

“Marketing is the discipline to drive growth through reputed and trusted brands.” [38:16]

He aligns with Seth’s view that marketing is inherently a business strategy aimed at driving growth rather than just a collection of qualitative activities.

The Essence of a Brand

When defining a brand, Antonio states:

“Brand is the promise that we make to all of our stakeholders in terms of the experience that they should expect from us.” [38:49]

This underscores the strategic role of branding in establishing trust and delivering consistent stakeholder experiences.

Challenges and Pressures of the CMO Role

Managing Pressures

Antonio candidly shares the immense pressures of being a CMO:

“Managing 360 degrees of pressure... from financial markets, boards, competitors, employees, and clients. It is a very, very difficult job.” [40:55]

He points out that during such high-pressure times, a strong marketing function can provide invaluable clarity and strategic direction.

Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways

Focus and Discipline in Marketing

Antonio advises CMOs to prioritize initiatives based on business priorities and measurable outcomes:

“When in doubt, follow the numbers. Spend your money and time proportional to business priorities.” [36:32]

Empowering the CMO Role

He reiterates the importance of CMOs positioning themselves as strategic leaders who can bridge marketing with overall business objectives:

“CMOs need to stand up and say, even if they're not asked, this is what we can do to drive the business.” [35:06]

Conclusion

Antonio Lucio’s conversation with Seth Matlins offers a masterclass in elevating the C-suite’s understanding of marketing. By advocating for a more integrated, strategic approach and emphasizing the necessity for CMOs to communicate effectively with other executives, Antonio provides actionable insights for driving growth and redefining the marketing function within organizations.

Notable Quotes:

• “Marketing is the discipline to drive growth through reputed and trusted brands.” — Antonio Lucio [38:16]

• “When in doubt, follow the numbers.” — Antonio Lucio [36:32]

• “The CMO ensures that they have the best possible people, processes, and implementation strategies to deliver against business objectives.” — Antonio Lucio [27:06]

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Listen to the full episode for an in-depth exploration of these topics and more, offering valuable lessons for marketers and business leaders alike.

Transcript

[Antonio Lucio]

Foreign.

[Seth Godin]

Paraphrase, David Letterman. My next guest needs no introduction, but he deserves one anyway. So if you're a marketer, if you're a chief marketer, everybody knows Antonio Lucio. But for the rest of the C suite who's in our audience, you should know this. Besides being a mentor to many of today's CMOs and aspiring ones, Antonio is a legit and bon. I'm. I'm sorry this is going to make you uncomfortable. Just deal with it. It's a legit and bonaf legend in business and marketing. While today he is both the Chief Marketing and Corporate Affairs Officer for hp, this is in fact his second stint at HP where he was CMO previously, this time also adding the Corporate affairs title. He's also been Global CMO at both Visa and Meta, and he was in fact Chief Innovation and Port. I'm sorry, yeah, Chief Innovation and Portfolio transformation officer at PepsiCo. Antonio's. Antonio's got mad accolades and so I'm just going to call out a few, which is he's a member of the AAF hall of Fame, the AMA hall of Fame, and in 2022 was inducted into the Forbes CMO hall of Fame, which really makes him one of very few. By the way, are you uncomfortable yet? Because I'm kind of hoping to make you like, just, you know, like, you know, I'm not going to be able.

[Antonio Lucio]

To say a word.

[Seth Godin]

Which makes him one of very few to be recognized by all three. Antonio, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it. It's good to see you.

[Antonio Lucio]

Thank you for the. It's always very nice to spend time with you. I always found you to have a very unique and non apologetic point of view. And I think in terms of transformation, as we are all going through as an industry, those points of view and these types of conversations are needed more than ever.

[Seth Godin]

Well, I will say I don't know that I would call it unapologetic because sometimes I do find myself needing to apologize for a few things. But it's certainly uncensored. Or maybe I should say it's fucking uncensored. All right, all right. I want to start somewhere differently with you than we typically do where we ask that series of kind of templated questions to get into things. But, but with you, I wanna start in a slightly different place and in fact ask you two questions, Antonio, which is one. Why, from your decades of perspective and experience, do you think on a relative basis. It's not even on a relative basis, it's on a quantifiable databases. So few of the world's largest company CEOs come from marketing. Why so few boards, on a relative basis have CMO representation And actually, let me just stick a pin in that and I'll get to the second question next.

[Antonio Lucio]

Yeah, I think we need to qualify that statement, Seth, because although in aggregate, that statement is true when you actually look at it by sectors, Most of the CEOs on the consumer goods companies are coming either from the marketing or the commercial or the commercial function. What has happened over the last 20 to 30 years is that the number of CPG companies relative to the non CPG companies has. The numbers have significantly shifted. And there is a fundamental difference for that. If you're in a CPG world, it is all about the consumer and every effort begins and ends with her. If you're in the non CPG world, you're, you're, you're about invention, you're about, about. It is about technology, it is about science, it is about discovery. And the marketing function then becomes kind of a service function to the overall business and therefore, most likely a minority of us are going to end up in the CEO chair. So that difference is actually very, very important.

[Seth Godin]

I think it's a great point. And of course you and I are both old enough that we've got kind of CPG backgrounds. We weren't doing this when Don Draper. We weren't even alive when Don Draper was doing what Don Draper was doing. But that, that foundation, I think, I think is a foundation we share. But you bring up in your answer not just a fair point to distinguish by industry and sector, although again, you know, if you look at the 500 largest companies, it is 90% of the CEOs who don't. Which in fact reflects your point about the shift in global commerce. But implicit in your answer is like CPG is really focused on her, and tech is focused on innovation and invention and this and that. Innovation and invention and product for that matter, or service from a B2B perspective, are of course also focused on her because if they don't focus on her, they will not sell to her or to him or to them or to they. So why do you think that's not better understood inside that sector in those categories?

[Antonio Lucio]

Because the starting point is different. If you're going to start with any offering in the CPG type of world, you begin with consumer or customer research. When you're, again, let's use the opposite side of that, which is tech. The starting point is a conceptual problem that you are Going to solve. It's not research. So then a product offering is developed, a product offering that will perhaps have nothing to do what it is known as of today. And then therefore that's the case of Visa, that's the case of Google, that's the case of Meta, that, that's the case of of, of Amazon, that's the case of multiple new categories that today are par for the course. It did not start with consumer research. It started with a problem that someone wanted to solve. Leveraging either an algorithm, either discovery or science to actually do so. Because of that, then those functions, whether it is banking in the case of financial services, or engineering in the case of some of the technologies, tech companies or in other companies called the product offices, they become kind of the center of the company. And then the marketing function becomes a service to that because of that lack of understanding of what the traditional marketing function can do. The world in which you and I grew up, in the CPG world, I was just talking to Greg Lyons from PepsiCo, you still have responsibility of what we used to call the four P's or the four E's nowadays. Product or experience, the price value relationship of it, the promotion or experiences created around them and then the distribution of IT in the consumer good world. Still to this day. The brief for R and D comes from marketing. They are the ones that have the understanding of the consumers. They create the brief and products come out of that. They own the value equation of IT which helps inform sales. When it comes to the pricing. They understand the dynamic of consumer behavior through the totality of the engagement model. It helps sort out what we place which is no longer a place, but the distribution strategy, digital or not. Outside of. Outside of the consumer good world, those four isolated responsibilities are separated. So the product offices or engineering controls completely the product offering part of it. The sales function controls the price value relationship of it. The distribution, depending on whether you have a digital or not, has a completely different set of, of responsibilities. And then marketing becomes a very narrowly defined responsibility which is about demand generation and brand building, which is with performance marketing. And everything that we know about branding. When you reduce the marketing function to that specificity is very difficult to say. You know what? This is the person that should run the company relative to the engineers.

[Seth Godin]

I love that. I love. Well, I don't love it, but I love what you've said. I don't love that. That's where we are. Because as I think anyone who's listened to this knows, I think it gets in the way of growth so you bring up a perfect segue to my second question. My second question, I'm going to ask it and then I want to contextualize it based on some things you've said, which is again, based on your breadth of experience. What few things do you think the CEOs, the CFOs, the rest of the C suite inside non CPG companies need to better understand about marketing so that marketing becomes better able and CMOs become better able to drive growth that's at the core of their remit. Because what you've said, and it will come as no surprise, I agree with you completely, that isolation, that reduction isolation flies in the face of integration, reduction flies in the face of and has tension with expansion. So even if marketing is limited to, to in those companies to demand creation and capture what, what drives, what is growth but the, the relationship between those two. So where, where would you advise the CEO of AC company to spend a little bit more time getting versed?

[Antonio Lucio]

I think that part of the conversations that we have as an industry always goes into, well, the CEO needs to understand marketing more and we need to educate the CEO. Seth, Honestly, I've always taken the opposite route to that. Because there is an inherent reduction of what the function should do. The role of the CMO becomes significantly more critical, which is the first job is you need to earn a seat at the business table. And everybody talks about that rather lightly. Yeah, of course, because we're business people first and marketing people second. It's really hard when you.

[Seth Godin]

That's not. I mean, by the way, you're right, I'm sorry to interrupt. Everybody talks about it, but the fact of the matter is CMOs have so much responsibility because they're so many are not in fact business people, people first. And, and so they're by default, they're not earning a seat at the table, which I also want to ask you about. But. Sorry, keep.

[Antonio Lucio]

So what I was going to say is, is the first responsibility of a CMO coming into ACME or Meta or Visa or HP is to actually be able to understand the business and be able to explain and build bridges as to how what you do actually drives the business forward from a revenue standpoint, from a reputational standpoint, against the multiple stakeholders. That responsibility, I believe that falls in the hands of the CMO because it is not natural. That's what I'm trying to say because it is such a narrow definition of marketing. The moment that you go in and you are actually using the language of the business as opposed to the language of marketing to actually create the bridge between the business objective and what marketing can do. And by the way, this is the way that we're going to be able to measure results, then the conversation shifts. The problem, or the graveyard of cmos is full of people that fail to understand that that is kind of the CEO should understand the value of the brand. I've never seen it that way. I've always owned that responsibility. And the moment that you begin to earn a seat at the business table where you are actually able to have very strong points of view as to how to grow the business beyond advertising, then the shifts, then the shifts begin to happen.

[Seth Godin]

Again. Of course, I agree with you. I do think two things can be true, which is that the CEO, cfo, et cetera, should understand the importance of those things. And it's up to the cmo, if they do not to take the time to speak the language of business, to help them understand. But one of the things that I find, and I've talked about it on the show before, so amazing, is how quick the C suite painting with a broad brush can be. To dismiss their own lived experience. Right? To dismiss why they're wearing the shoes, they are carrying the bags, they are driving the car, they are living in the neighborhood, why their pantries are filled with brands X, Y and Z. As if they think all those things happen by osmosis and as something other than marketing. And as if they would drive the exact same car if it had a more utilitarian logo upon its hood. I don't get it. Do you know, do you have a thought on why they do deny their lived experience? You have any stories that, you know, kind of illustrate it?

[Antonio Lucio]

The, the, I mean, the, the, the one of my, my moments, the first time that I was facing Mark Zuckerberg and we had a very specific mandate to actually create demand for the group's products on their, on their Facebook. Yeah, you.

[Seth Godin]

When you were cmo, it was still Facebook.

[Antonio Lucio]

When I was cmo, it was still Facebook. And this, but this was specifically about the Facebook platform relative to Instagram and whats and messenger that were part of the, of the portfolio that, that, that, that I was leading from a marketing standpoint. You know, the, we had conversations on strategy. We had conversations. Numbers first. Which is something that some, some marketers moving into the non CPG world do not understand, which is kind of. In the CPG world, you lead with ideas and you finalize with numbers, which is kind of like this is what's going to happen. And by the way, rest Assured that I'm taking care of the numbers outside of the CPG world is completely the opposite. You lead with numbers. And then by the way, sometimes you don't even need to show the period pictures because you've convinced them on a very rational sort of level. The conversation that we had with Mark at the time, he really did not understand what we were saying and could not understand the concepts. And by the way, he was surrounded by all the engineers who, all of them had different points of view. And I remember that at that time I said, oh my goodness, maybe I'm not in the right company. And that night I sort of reflected on.

[Seth Godin]

I'm sorry, when you say couldn't understand, were you pitching an idea, a campaign, a strategy?

[Antonio Lucio]

We were pitching a campaign to make people understand what groups could mean to them in their daily life. And we had all the strategy, all the growth numbers for groups, the level of engagement of people that were in groups relative to those that weren't. What were the passion points where people would interact more often? I mean, we had it all. I mean, when you work in a tech company, you live and die by, by, by your level of understanding of the business and the numbers. Anyway, so we presented the idea, the strategy and all that. Great. We presented some of the ideas. He didn't know how to take it. So the meeting did not go very well. So that night I, I've had a few of those. Oh, one of those. And you go like, oh my goodness, what, what happened here? And then I, then I went like, how does Mark communicate his ideas? And at the time, I mean, this was already seven years ago and the worlds have changed dramatically. But at the time he would take Wednesdays, his Wednesdays was his reflection day. He would work from home and at the end of the day you would get everyone that reported into him, pray that you weren't the one recipient of the long format, old school Seth, long form, very thoughtful approach to what he wanted to do. We need to move Instagram to this place. We need to do this with WhatsApp. I was thinking and very well thought out, well written, long form document. So that night I, I went through, through, I said, okay, so I'm going to do that for him. And I went very specifically, our strategy. Is this the, the research that we have? Is this, the business opportunities that we're going to capture? Is this, the idea that we're pursuing? Is this. Oh, and by the way, and then I started using, just like you said, here is a Nike spot that you know, that has pursued A similar strategy. This is a. He was into boxing at the time. So it was kind of like in a way I was taking the role that I needed to in order for me to be successful. I needed to educate the CEO as to how I was looking at things and he could agree or disagree on it. And I remember I sent it, I don't know, it was 1:30 in the morning and I was going, like I told my wife, I said, maybe this is a very short moment. And what I got back, Seth, was a very, very first, a very grateful note because I had taken the time to communicate in his style and with a bunch of very thoughtful questions about it. So the whole notion of what you said, let me show you things that you know and like and how this builds a bridge to that is a critical component of the equation. The cmo, when you're working in the non CPG world, has to own the role of educating the CEO and the company as to what marketing, what marketing can do. It is easier when you're doing the performance side of the house because it's very clear this delivers on that. It is harder when you're talking about a bit more upper funnel. But that's one. I mean, I have many stories like that and it always goes back to let me build a bridge between the business strategy and things that they can understand so that I can actually sell what we're trying to do.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. You know, you bring up such an important point and I love, I think there's such a lesson in your story for the marketers and our audience, which is, you know, if the truism is that the first rule of comedy and marketing both is know your audience, the second piece and what become is speak in the language of your audience, in particular the internal one that goes beyond just, you know, you're a business person first and you recognize that marketing is situationally the right lever oftentimes is our belief, but situationally. And I love your use of metaphor and analogies that in fact lean into his lived experience as a way of bringing the point to life. And I can't imagine, I don't think I've never met Mark, but I can imagine the challenge of having to explain. And it's not about Mark, but to very rational, brilliant and rational people, the import of emotion and the subconscious in decision making. But I want to go back and ask you if there are a couple of things that you could wave the proverbial magic wand and address any misconception that you think the rest of the C suite Needs, in fact, to address, even if on their own, about marketing.

[Antonio Lucio]

Again, I think what we call misconceptions sometimes is lack of true understanding of what the marketing function can provide.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. That's really fair.

[Antonio Lucio]

And one thing that we don't talk a lot about is that the same marketers that you and I know that are outstanding at doing cluster analysis, finding insights, figuring out how to do one on one communications with the consumers. We're terrible doing the internal piece. Terrible. It's almost like we've done the great job with our customer base, but we are not taking care of our internal constituents to the same level of care. Employees empathy.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Antonio Lucio]

And understanding that we do with the consumer because it's kind of like we figure the consumer piece out. We know what wins, by the way. We have research, but then we have the same little deck and we go to all the sales, all the. All the different people in that you need to get support on and you're expecting a standing ovation. And most of them go like, well, that's kind of nice. I don't know what that does to my problem. So the whole notion of that marketing needs to be 360 degrees around and that the internal constituents require the same level of care.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Antonio Lucio]

Understanding and empathy again, especially in the non CPG world, is something that we need to do better. Listen, you and I have seen this. I tend to be extremely disciplined. I did not go to any external things during my first year in office.

[Seth Godin]

For I know I found that very frustrating you over and over again.

[Antonio Lucio]

But it is done with purpose. Which is. Antonio is concerned about internal. I've seen all sorts of CMOs. First thing that they do is they get to a new job. Let's go to Cannes. Let's go to this. Let's go again. In the non CPG world, it drains from your credibility. It means that you really don't understand the perception that that your colleagues have of the marketing function. And we should be doing exactly the opposite and showcase what we can do. I'm very Seth like you. I am very proud of our craft. I am very proud of what we can do. And I get frustrated when we get the bad rap that we get. But I also get frustrated with the fact that we need to own this.

[Seth Godin]

Too, 100% and in fact, I'll drop it into the show notes, but kind of remarks I gave at our CMO summit in Miami and I think what year is it? 25 in 23 were titled marketing needs much better Marketing. And there were two parts to that. And I think I may have mentioned it on this show before, so forgive the redundancy, audience, please. But it was like, we need to do a better job marketing externally, but we absolutely need to do a better job of marketing internally. And what you speak about, which again I think is really important for it's not just earning a seat at the table. Yes, it is absolutely that. But it's earning the permission to go do what you were hired to do. And if they don't understand, they're not going to give you the permission and that trust. I remember at that same CMO summit, Carla Hassan took the stage and she was talking about something and she said, you know, it's really important to know how your company makes money. And the audience kind of like collectively oohed and odd. And I was kind of like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Of course, I mean, not Carla, right? Her point was really good. But like, that shouldn't be an insight. That shouldn't be like, oh, I never thought about it that way. If it. If you'd never thought about it that way, you're not a particularly good business person, let alone cmo, it would seem. But you've said something to me. You and I sat down. I think it was shortly after I got to Forbes, so it was probably early 22 or 23. We met at Ad Color and we were having coffee and we were talking about the complexities of the job. And you said something to me that I've quoted at least 100 times, always with attribution, by the way, which is you say today's CMO has to be the CEO of the function. And I wonder if you can unpack what you mean by that, because I have my own interpretation. And why you think not just that the CMO needs to operate that way, but how her C suite colleagues need to understand the evolution of the role to that.

[Antonio Lucio]

The reason why I mentioned that, Seth, is a real understanding of how our beautiful craft has evolved and the number of different capabilities that a high performing marketing organization needs to have. So take performance or growth marketing and our ability to do that. Take leveraging data, martech and insights to deliver the right level of creative for the right audience. Talk about all the effort, process systems and capabilities that you need to manage data, to translate that to insights so that it can drive instant connection. Take everything that we need to do. When you're doing this at a global scale, the truth of the matter is that it is impossible for even someone like me that has been doing this for a long time to be able to say, oh, and by the way, ADD the new component of AI and what AI and AI on data and then generative AI on everything that has to do with connection. It is impossible for a CMO to be a subject matter expert of each and every one of those disciplines. So the way that I see it is, okay, I am the CEO of this function. It is my role to ensure that I have the best possible people in those areas that I am responsible for. By the way, ADD comes to that and do I have the right people? Do I have the right processes, Do I have the right means for superior implementation of it? So what that means is that Antonio the artisan needs to bring or raise up to Antonio the CEO of the function to ensure that we're able to deliver against everything that we are supposed to deliver. The thing says, I think that the moment, you and I have been doing this for a long time, I have been doing it longer than you.

[Seth Godin]

I'm not sure that's true.

[Antonio Lucio]

The moment is amazing. Every time, every time that there is dramatic disruption in the market, everyone gets confused. Marketing, who's supposed to have the pulse of the stakeholders. And I'm not talking consumer, I'm talking the stakeholders, which includes government. It gives us an opportunity to actually show our worth beyond brand creative in terms of overall strategy. Also when it comes to the new technologies like AI, and it will always be done at the service of the customer experience and who other than marketing can actually bring all that to bear. So I think that that's what I'm excited about and all the time that I spent with the business is about that. I mean this give you a very specific example and stories. All this disruption that is coming from AI and it's coming from the fluidity of the hybrid workplace, home, office and the shifts is creating a huge opportunity for redefining the future of work. Redefining how to drive performance, but at the same time how to drive not personal fulfillment, professional fulfillment. How does that translate into comprehensive offerings for my company? That's what my team is doing at a moment of transition and is bringing the marketing function to the center of the business strategy. And that to me is so the need is there every time there's a transformation. We saw it when, I mean you and I remember when we went digital and the first thing that happened was a lot of jobs were lost in the agency and in the client side. What we did not see, which I believe is what we're going to about to see, is all the new jobs that were created that were different than the previous jobs. Google was invented, Meta was invented, LinkedIn was invented. Amazon was invented. Microsoft took off. It's kind of like. And in those times, those that are responsible for understanding trends and customers should have a leading voice in the companies. And honestly, that's what I'm excited about. That's what I came back.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. And I want to talk about your coming back in a second. Just being mindful of time as well. But. But I think that what you've described is kind of. It's the ideal state. I mean, from my perspective, it's of course. Right. But a lot of org design, going back to what you said earlier about my words. But I think your point, which is that which should be integrated, is often isolated. What do you think a chief executive who's ultimately in charge of and accountable to the organizational design to facilitate the connection of all those things that connects, like, you know, what's your advice to the CEO whose organization is isolated, not integrated about how to think about putting that org back together, recognizing that, you know, McKinsey and like make gazillions of dollars and take years to do that work. I'm going to ask you to do it in like 30 seconds.

[Antonio Lucio]

You're talking the CEO or the CMO.

[Seth Godin]

CEO.

[Antonio Lucio]

I think Carla said this once and.

[Seth Godin]

I believe Carla getting two name checks.

[Antonio Lucio]

The two most important relationship of a CMO are the CEO and the cfo. And those relationship has to be cultivated and those relationships take time. And I have to say that to the extent the times that I have been most successful in my roles are the times where I have had the strongest relationship with both of those characters, the CEO and the cfo. The advice to the CEO is if you want, if you want growth, you should talk to the CMO and ask her how is she going to be capable of delivering that piece. And the advice to the CMO is for her to be able to stand up and say, even if she's not asked, this is what we can do to actually drive the business, utilizing the words of the business within the context of what is relevant to the multiple stakeholders within the company.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I saw a definition, and I don't remember by whom, of a CEO's job that kind of boiled it down from this person's perspective to they're an investment banker and their job is to allocate scarce resources to opportunity. And I think I was like, yeah, I'm sure it's a lot more than that, of course. But I like that as Kind of a premise. And of course, the CMO has that same job too. Back to your CEO of the function, right? Your job ultimately is to allocate resources that are in fewer supply than even good strategic opportunities to figure out where the greatest efficacy and return will be near term and on a more sustainable basis. And I just, I tend to think that as. As a practice, we've. We've lost sight of that a little bit and chase because of very human idiosyncra, the idiosyncrasies in nature of human beings. We chase every. We chase many things that get in the way of that rather than staying focused on that. And I wonder now if you've got any advice to a CMO on how to stay focused and not distracted because the distractions are real and many of them are meaningful, at least potentially.

[Antonio Lucio]

Yeah, I was having this conversation with my team just yesterday. When in doubt, follow the numbers, which is a plan has been approved. We know what we need to deliver. And spend your money and your time proportional to that business priorities. Part of the issue is when the CMO becomes distracted with this other thing because it's cool and they think that they can deliver higher levels of growth. And my, My response is always, if you triple that business, you still will not make plan follow the money. And when in doubt, when in doubt, you follow the money, which is you have initiatives that are going to deliver the highest level of return short term and others that you're banking for the long term. And you should use that as your barometer. We get in trouble when our heart, as opposed to our brain is making those decisions. And focus, focus, focus, as my daughters like to make fun of. My accent is probably the one thing that I think as a discipline we can all use more of.

[Seth Godin]

Well, if it's any comfort, my children make fun of pretty much everything, but perhaps not my accent. All right. I want to end because we are getting on time where we usually begin, which is kind of these quick questions and answers to get your perspectives on them. So if you'll indulge me, if it's a fill in the blank, marketing is.

[Antonio Lucio]

Marketing is the discipline to drive growth through referred and trusted brands.

[Seth Godin]

I think that you are the first of our guests to talk about it in that context, to talk about it as the strategy as it is. It is a business strategy. It is a discipline. And not give it kind of a more qualitative answer. I'm really grateful for that. Okay, if that's what marketing is, what from your perspective is a brand.

[Antonio Lucio]

Brand is the promise that we make to all of our stakeholders in terms of the experience that they should expect from us.

[Seth Godin]

Does it? So given my job, I see a lot of pitches and decks and remits and spec sheets and whatnot. I see a lot of CMOs talking about brand objectives. And while there are of course brand objectives, brand is fundamentally a strategy, right? It's the great differentiator, it's the great performance driver. But it exists solely to drive growth. Do you agree with that and do you think there's a reason it's kind of gotten confused as something else?

[Antonio Lucio]

I believe in that. I grew up in that world. That is what you're taught in the consumer good world. The moment that we moved outside of it and the scope of the function was narrowly defined to kind of communications, it became almost like an end in itself with softer metrics that some people were seeing and some people were not seeing. So the whole notion of being able to integrate the marketing objectives within the business and not as an isolated, almost vanity metrics is critical. And again, people that came from the client side understand that really well. Sometimes if you haven't had that formation, it takes you a bit longer to figure that out.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. All right. We've talked a bit. You talked a bit about the hardest part of being a cmo, which, which leads to the CEO of the function. What? Putting your empathetic hat on, though you wear it all the time actually. What's the hardest part of being a CEO from your perspective?

[Antonio Lucio]

Oh my God. Managing. 360 degrees of pressure. It is the pressure of the, of the financial markets, it is the pressure of the boards, it is the pressure of competitors, it is the pressure of employees, it is the pressure coming from clients. It is really a very, very difficult job. And because of that, when a CEO can rely on someone or a function that can actually help bring clarity into what a vision can be, what growth can be like, how we can service our customers better, how we can make our employees proud. It becomes invaluable and that's what we can do.

[Seth Godin]

In bringing up how we make our employees proud, I think you implicitly speak again to the power and import of brand, which is the intangible value that a strong brand has in terms of talent, recruiting and retention, even beyond the shelf, whether that be a literal or proverbial shelf. And I think again, I think the C suite understands that implicitly. But back to your, your example about Zuck, you know, may sometimes benefit from, from being reminded. Okay, so my last, my last question for you. And as I look at it, I recognize I'm uncomfortable with my own phrasing. The phrasing is brands and businesses grow when. But what I've done is, in phrasing it that way, I've separated brand from business strategy. So I will, I will edit it moving forward. But businesses grow when.

[Antonio Lucio]

When you have vibrant, preferred and trusted brands, which is what gives the value of the company.

[Seth Godin]

Antonio Lucio, thank you so much for being with us. I, I, as anyone who knows me knows, I. I'm not a, I'm not a smoke blower. But you are a legit legend and deservedly so. And I'm really grateful to you joined us. Thank you.

[Antonio Lucio]

And don't, don't sell yourself too sure. You are one as well. And I always enjoy talking to you. Always make me think. So thank you very much for that.

[Seth Godin]

Well, if you want to say anything more flowery about me, we can keep recording. I'd be fine with that. I like it. I'm not mad, but otherwise you have.

[Antonio Lucio]

Great looking glasses too.

[Seth Godin]

Likewise. Likewise. Thank you to our audience. If you like what you heard, don't forget to smash that subscribe button and leave a review. And also reach out to us if you've got points of view that differ with what you heard or things you think we should do. We appreciate your being with us. And Antonio, thank you again.