The one with legendary CMO Linda Boff on the path from Thomas Edison to the present, making the invisible visible, and the lessons CEOs can learn from getting dressed in the morning.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing Episode: Featuring Legendary CMO Linda Boff
Release Date: April 9, 2025
Host: Seth Godin
Guest: Linda Boff, CEO of Said Differently and Former CMO of GE

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of The CEO’s Guide to Marketing, host Seth Godin engages in a profound conversation with Linda Boff, the esteemed former Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) of General Electric (GE) and current CEO of Said Differently, an agency renowned for its creative strategy and customer experience leadership. Linda shares her extensive experience in transforming GE’s brand, the pivotal role of marketing in driving shareholder value, and her transition from a corporate CMO to leading an agency. Her candid discussions offer invaluable lessons for CEOs aiming to elevate their companies through effective marketing strategies.

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Humanizing a Monolithic B2B Brand

Linda Boff begins by reflecting on her decade-long tenure as GE’s CMO, where one of her significant achievements was the humanization of GE’s brand—a challenge given GE’s nature as a monolithic B2B company in specialized industries.

Notable Quote:

“The humanization of GE was inextricably part of the DNA, always had been. And as far as I’m concerned, I think it always will be. It was always Thomas Edison’s company.”
— Linda Boff [00:42]

Linda explains that GE’s legacy, rooted in Thomas Edison’s innovative spirit, provided a natural foundation for making the brand more relatable and approachable. She emphasizes that this human touch was not only about branding aesthetics but about showcasing the people and stories behind GE’s technological advancements.

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The Importance of Brand in B2B Companies

Seth Godin probes deeper into how GE recognized the commercial value of branding in a traditionally industrial and B2B context. Linda elucidates that GE’s longstanding relationship with the advertising agency BBDO, spanning over a century, was instrumental in embedding marketing into the company’s core operations.

Notable Quote:

“We were always keen to take what was invisible and make it visible, but do it in a way that was exceptionally approachable.”
— Linda Boff [04:15]

She highlights that even in the mid-20th century, with initiatives like the GE Theater hosted by Ronald Reagan, GE understood the importance of presenting a human face to the public, thereby differentiating itself from purely machine-focused competitors.

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Differentiation and Relevancy in Marketing

The conversation shifts to the concept of relevancy beyond mere product-market fit. Linda stresses the emotional connection that brands must foster with their audience to maintain relevance.

Notable Quote:

“We are trying to tell a story in the most compelling way possible to as targeted an audience as we possibly can.”
— Linda Boff [05:28]

She draws inspiration from Google’s approach, where people "fall in love" with products not just for their features but for the company’s impact on the world. This storytelling aspect ensures that the brand resonates on a deeper, more emotional level, which is crucial even for industrial or B2B companies.

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Marketing’s Impact on Shareholder Value

Seth introduces the topic of measuring marketing’s impact on shareholder value, prompting Linda to share her perspective on how brand and marketing efforts translate into increased shareholder confidence and, ultimately, share price.

Notable Quote:

“Share price is also a belief in the future. Isn’t that what you’re kind of betting on?”
— Linda Boff [20:07]

Linda recounts a pivotal conversation with a GE CEO who acknowledged that while he couldn't quantify marketing's exact contribution to share price, he certainly recognized its essential role. She likens brand investment to depositing money in a bank, emphasizing that trust and reputation—fostered through consistent and impactful branding—are critical assets that drive shareholder confidence.

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Transitioning from CMO to CEO

Linda discusses her transition from GE’s CMO to the CEO of Said Differently, reflecting on how her marketing background has shaped her leadership style and strategic approach.

Notable Quote:

“Marketing is about satisfying the needs of your audience, your customer with your products, your services, whatever it is you’re selling to drive growth for the company.”
— Linda Boff [33:57]

She highlights that her experience in interpreting external market trends and connecting them to growth initiatives has been invaluable in her CEO role. This broad perspective enables her to navigate diverse marketing challenges across various industries, reinforcing the universal nature of effective marketing principles.

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Challenges of the CMO Role and Chief Executive Understanding

Addressing the complexities of the CMO role, Linda points out that CEOs often have varying definitions of what a CMO is responsible for, which can lead to misunderstandings and underutilization of marketing’s potential.

Notable Quote:

“In my experience, many CEOs and many companies have different definitions of what a CMO is.”
— Linda Boff [36:13]

She shares anecdotes where communicating marketing strategies in business terms rather than marketing jargon helped bridge this gap. By aligning marketing objectives with overall business goals, CMOs can better demonstrate their value to the company’s leadership.

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The Role of Marketing in Differentiation and Share Price

The discussion delves deeper into how meaningful differentiation, driven by strong marketing and branding, can sustain or enhance a company's share price. Linda illustrates this with examples from her time at GE, emphasizing that brands like GE and Apple thrive not just on product excellence but also on compelling narratives that foster customer loyalty and investor trust.

Notable Quote:

“There is no brand like GE in the B2B industrial marketplace that has the humanity, that has the deep engagement and has the followership.”
— Linda Boff [43:14]

She underscores that consistent and authentic branding creates a unique market position, making the company more attractive to both customers and investors, thereby positively influencing shareholder value.

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Final Advice for CEOs

In her closing remarks, Linda offers actionable advice for CEOs on fostering effective partnerships with their marketing teams. She emphasizes the importance of integrating CMOs into all facets of leadership and valuing their insights as key contributors to business growth.

Notable Quote:

“Let them share those insights and make them a partner. Certainly, make them a business partner, but make them a partner in terms of conversations that you’re having about how to grow the business in new ways.”
— Linda Boff [44:59]

Linda advocates for a collaborative approach where marketing is not siloed but is a central part of strategic discussions, ensuring that marketing initiatives are aligned with broader business objectives.

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Conclusion

This episode of The CEO’s Guide to Marketing offers a treasure trove of insights from Linda Boff’s illustrious career. From humanizing a large B2B brand to leveraging marketing for shareholder value, Linda’s experiences underscore the indispensable role of marketing in driving business success. Her journey from CMO to CEO exemplifies how marketing expertise can be pivotal in leadership roles, providing a strategic edge in today’s competitive landscape. CEOs and marketing professionals alike can glean valuable lessons on collaboration, differentiation, and the enduring power of a well-crafted brand narrative.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

• Linda Boff [00:42]: “The humanization of GE was inextricably part of the DNA, always had been. And as far as I’m concerned, I think it always will be. It was always Thomas Edison’s company.”
• Linda Boff [04:15]: “We were always keen to take what was invisible and make it visible, but do it in a way that was exceptionally approachable.”
• Linda Boff [05:28]: “We are trying to tell a story in the most compelling way possible to as targeted an audience as we possibly can.”
• Linda Boff [20:07]: “Share price is also a belief in the future. Isn’t that what you’re kind of betting on?”
• Linda Boff [33:57]: “Marketing is about satisfying the needs of your audience, your customer with your products, your services, whatever it is you’re selling to drive growth for the company.”
• Linda Boff [36:13]: “In my experience, many CEOs and many companies have different definitions of what a CMO is.”
• Linda Boff [43:14]: “There is no brand like GE in the B2B industrial marketplace that has the humanity, that has the deep engagement and has the followership.”
• Linda Boff [44:59]: “Let them share those insights and make them a partner. Certainly, make them a business partner, but make them a partner in terms of conversations that you’re having about how to grow the business in new ways.”

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Transcript

[Linda Boff]

Foreign.

[Seth Godin]

So here's my first question. Your CMO at GE for a decade, right. And amongst your many brilliant innovations there, and they really are innovations, was, was the humanization not just of a iconic brand, but a monolithic company, a monolithic B2B company in industries that only people within the industry actually understand. I'm wonder how in the world did you convince the CEO of GE that humanizing a brand had commercial value?

[Linda Boff]

Perfect question, Seth. I found in all my time at ge, and listen, I built on the shoulders of many wonderful people that the humanization of GE was inextricably part of the DNA, always had been. And as far as I'm concerned, I think it always will be. It was. Was always Thomas Edison's company.

[Seth Godin]

Always.

[Linda Boff]

And we always talked about being the sons and daughters of Edison. And I think when you're blessed with a founder, even a founder who's not around anymore, that was always a touchstone for us, that there was somebody behind the products, there was somebody behind the machines, the innovations.

[Seth Godin]

Was that something that you unlocked or did it precede you?

[Linda Boff]

I think it preceded me. I mean, you know, I followed Beth Comstock, one of the legendary CMOs, and I. I give a lot of credit to the GE brand. Go. If you went back to the 50s, Ronald Reagan was host of the GE Theater. So there was always this idea of GE wasn't just machines. It was so much more than that. I think what I had the opportunity.

[Seth Godin]

You and I know each other well enough. I'm going to stop apologizing for you.

[Linda Boff]

Don't apologize, just interrupt.

[Seth Godin]

So I'd forgotten about GE Theater, and my bad. But it is. It really is. Even today, even outside of kind of the industrial categories in which GE has long competed, although they were making consumer appliances and things at the time, that that sense of marketing's importance, in particular for a B2B company so much so is. Is that's really pioneering. Like, if you kind of mine your understanding of the archives of the company, what drove them to understand, again, that marketing was going to contribute that commercial value and that these things made sense?

[Linda Boff]

You know, it's really interesting because GE as an industrial company doesn't think in terms of, you know, what their CAC is, generally speaking, how quickly they can sell a product, how quickly they can go to market. And you're in a.

[Seth Godin]

Because the life cycle.

[Linda Boff]

The life cycle. So long. It's a long, long cycle business. So I think there were a couple things, and there's some. Some sh. Else that really should happen. GE and BBDO had a hundred year relationship and that over the years I think was a part of.

[Seth Godin]

Maybe Edison was the first person to sign them.

[Linda Boff]

He could have been. So I think somewhere along the line when you have a hundred year relationship, somebody 100 years ago understood that there was a value in that type of external thinking. And to me that's fascinating. You know, when you look back over other companies, consumer companies, but certainly industrial companies, nothing comes close to that. Nothing in history does. I think what we had the good sense to do was to realize that staying relevant was super important and having that human face as, as you call it was what made us take something that was largely invisible. A lot of what GE does did isn't apparent to the average person. You don't get on a plane, most of us and say, oh look at those jet engines. You don't think about electricity being on.

[Seth Godin]

Well more and more with this new administration.

[Linda Boff]

Good point. Maybe so. So we were always keen to take what was invisible and make it visible, but do it in a way that was exceptionally approachable. And Seth, somewhat unexpected. You and I have talked about that before. I think when a company, legacy company, a heritage company, whatever we, whatever word we want to potentially to that shows up in a way that's both fresh and familiar and then puts a human face on it. I, I think it's, I think it's an unlock.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, yeah. You know, you, you, you talked about just now. I love the phrase you use, making the invisible visible. If we use that as a metaphor, not just for engines, as an example, but for the emotion that is kind of at the core of relevancy. And I don't care if the relevancy is purely functional. It's still got an emotional underbelly. How, how for kind of your industrial consumer, your, your sorry, your industrial customer. How did you look at relevancy and how did you dimensionalize what was relevant? Obviously there's got to be product market fit. You know, forgive me for stating the, the trite but what did relevancy mean beyond that?

[Linda Boff]

So to me, and I actually think I stole this from, from Google, from Lorraine. Once upon a time. I remember hearing her talk about people falling in love with Google's products. And that to me was always a touchstone. How could we get people. And this was across stakeholders, yes, it was customers, but it was also governments, it was also investors to actually fall in love with what GE did not because of a dial on a product or a certain, you know, feature, but because of what the company did in the world. The impact that we had, the impact that we had in energy and healthcare and aviation. And when I think about relevancy, you know, so much has changed and so little has changed. In the end, what are we trying to do? We are trying to tell a story in the most compelling way possible to as targeted an audience as we possibly can. Targeting has gotten much easier, but it's amazing to me, and I'm going off kilter a little bit. You can pull me back that in a world and a time when we can put the right message out in the right channel. Excuse me, the right channel to the right person, we often still get the message wrong.

[Seth Godin]

Okay, so such a great point. Explain to CEOs who are listening why that is the case, because I suspect just as marketers wrestle with actually doing it, they wrestle with understanding why it can't be perfect all the time. What's your perspective on that?

[Linda Boff]

Nothing's ever perfect. But where I was going to go was the mistake I see too often across the board, and Lord knows I probably made it too, is you forget who you are. You forget that every product, every company, and most importantly, every brand really has the opportunity and in my view, the obligation to differentiate themselves. But you have to dig deep to figure out what that is. It's easy, it's lazy, it's facile to just say, well, you know, we know exactly how to target a, you know, somebody who's going to buy our financial services. We know where they are, we know where they're spending their time. But in the end, you know, the message is somewhat generic. I think it comes back to your CEO question of the people at the end of the line are consumers. They're humans. Right. Back to your point about humanity. And I have found in many of the conversations I've had, CEO, C Suite, etcetera, that it can be masked for CEOs, it can be masked for lots of us, that your buyer is just a human being who wants to relate to something, who wants to engage, who wants to be interested. I often talk about what are the things that are important? It's what do you want people to know? What do you want people to feel? And then what do you want people to do? Yeah, and I think all three of those are really important. And if you stop it, just know, you know. Okay, but you haven't taken advantage of all that you can do to really land a message.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, to your point about the human inside the B2B, listeners of the show will know that. And viewers, if you're watching on YouTube will know that I often point to IBM's 1974 ad, the mainframe computer print ad that said nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. Yeah, right. And immediately in that moment, I. I think it's just so brilliant because they were playing to the fundamental purchase barrier, which is, what if I this up?

[Linda Boff]

Yeah, yeah.

[Seth Godin]

Am I? And nobody ever got fired. And. And it made it safe.

[Linda Boff]

It made it safe. And that was a good value emotional.

[Seth Godin]

Exactly.

[Linda Boff]

It was a good value prop.

[Seth Godin]

It was relevant to them as much as it was to. To the enterprise. Now, during your tenure, even just as CMO at GE, because your tenure preceded your time as CMO, you work for three CEOs, three different CEOs, which is in and of itself like an insane achievement, you know, remarkable. In testimony to you, as you look back on. On those three different CEOs, is there a story that comes to mind we can keep. Keep them anonymous. That. That kind of illustrates what a CEO perhaps didn't know about marketing, where you had to just like, hey, come with me on this journey.

[Linda Boff]

One of our CEOs, I remember early in his tenure, he was not a marketer by trade. He was more of a financial person. So viewers can perhaps guess, or listeners can perhaps guess. We got into a discussion very early on about the importance of Brand. And I remember him saying, well, brand doesn't matter. Brand doesn't help me when I'm trying to get a purchase order an IO signed. And I took a minute and I.

[Seth Godin]

Thought, all right, all right. Before you took a minute, in that first second, what went through your head? Like, oh, my God, this guy's fucking nuts.

[Linda Boff]

What went through my head is what always goes through my head when people say they don't believe in Brand. How did you get dressed this morning? Car. Do you drive? You know, what, what do you. You know, what are any of your associations? But actually, what I said, I've used the other line sometimes, as you might imagine. But what I said was, okay, brand may not be there when you're signing the deal at the end, but it sure got you in the door in the first place. And in a company where I used to work that is global in nature, that's really important, you know, in a. Sure, it's important in Milwaukee, but it's also important in Mumbai. Right? So that's one that jumps to mind right away.

[Seth Godin]

And did he get it in that moment?

[Linda Boff]

I think so. Yeah. I think he did. I mean, he certainly. It made him stop and I think kind of say, Yeah, I guess that's right. And maybe brand is more than just, you know, the. The colors, the. The wrapper, the logo. It's. It's permission. It's. It's our reputation, it's our trust. So I think it did.

[Seth Godin]

So. So you actually have started to answer the question I was just going to ask, which is what is your definition of a brand? And I. I love your use of the word permission.

[Linda Boff]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

Will you unpack that a little bit?

[Linda Boff]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I've heard some of your guests talk about brand as a promise, which I certainly agree is very foundational, I should say, to what a brand is. But to me, permission is how far you can take your brand and still be within what your audience, whoever your audience allows you, Allows themselves to believe.

[Seth Godin]

Are you talking about elasticity?

[Linda Boff]

I think so. I'm talking about a combination of elasticity as well as a degree set of consistency, if you know what I mean. You know, a brand can show up. GE can show up in a variety of different ways. 135 years old, you know, stands for innovation, stands for invention, globality, et cetera. But I think if GE showed up and we behaved in a way that wasn't at all what you expected, I think there's a disjunct there. So, to me, the permission is how far you're allowed to go. And then maybe if you take it just a little further, if you tweak it just a little more, you're a little more unexpected. You zig while others zag. I think that's okay. But I think you can. I think there's a point where you go too far.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Linda Boff]

And you try to be somebody else's brand. You try to, you know, take on something that you haven't earned the right to say or do.

[Seth Godin]

There are a few things in my head around that. And. And let me start with the most current, which is going back to what you said about, you know, Edison was always part of it. Right. So did the fact that you were a company, I mean, was. He was an inventor, founded by an inventor, give you, to use your word again, the permission and maybe even the obligation to ensure that your marketing was as inventive and. Or innovative as was the founding of the company?

[Linda Boff]

Undoubtedly, that was a huge rallying cry for us, Seth. In fact, that was often our brief when we spoke to agencies and creators, which was, how can we be as innovative and creative in our marketing as we are in our products? Because that allowed us to do things that weren't chasing shiny objects, but were really reinforcing a company whose core was innovation. So it's a great example. That was another way, I think we, we gave permission and we also allowed ourselves to sort of never get quite over our skis. Well, never say never sometimes, but to push ourselves into new places.

[Seth Godin]

And I want to. I know I'm asking kind of. Well, actually essentially the same question as I before, but in that moment, were there. With that in mind, rather, were there moments. And I have to imagine There were across three chief executives and I don't know how many CFOs where they're like, yeah, we're innovative in our products, not so much in our marketing. And so, I mean, because you have, you have a legacy of firsts. Yeah, yeah. Where you had to be. Where you didn't feel you had the permission to do what you do to drive growth and you had to convince them to. I think the words I used before were come along for the ride or to trust your expertise.

[Linda Boff]

Yes. I mean, it's all situational in so many ways. When Larry culp first became CEO, so that was 2018, financially, we were not in a great place to go out there and tout what we were doing. It was probably two years at that point where we really honed our narrative. We refocused the company, we refocused the portfolio. I mean, it was truly a time of transformation. And what I love about Larry and I love about that time was it was a time where we sort of. Seth. Took stock in who we were, you know, legacy, invention, et cetera, but also thought about who we were going to be going forward, which ultimately became three different companies. And what I love is that Larry went along for that ride. And I will say I love that. I also knew that there were moments to be a little quieter while we were getting our own house in order. And it just, it wasn't a moment to shout a lot. And we didn't shout a lot. And I think as marketers, sometimes you need to. Well, you always need to be thinking about what the business needs at every moment. But there are times when the business doesn't need you to be quite as avuncular as other times.

[Seth Godin]

And sometimes silence can be quite. Or quiet can be quite differentiating quiet.

[Linda Boff]

And also building back up, which we had to do some credibility with Wall street. And that was a time where that's what we did and we earned our right back. And, you know, I don't know, it was a really nice two way journey.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to talk to you about the role of, of marketing, the impact of marketing on share price. But before I do, I realized I haven't introduced you. So for those of our guests. I'm sorry, our listeners who haven't figured it out yet and I bet quite a few have. Today I'm talking with Linda Boff who today is the chief executive of Said Differently in agency. And we're going to talk about what moving from client side to agency side has taught you as well as what becoming the CEO of a company has taught you and how it shifted your perspective. But as, as we've been talking long time CMO at ge she's an award winning creative strategy and customer experience leader. Right. And she's just, she's just, just a giant in our industry. And so glad that you're with us. So thanks.

[Linda Boff]

Love being late, but.

[Seth Godin]

Okay, so here's, here's the question like what role do you think? How do you measure for marketing's impact on shareholder value? Because we talk a lot about it on this show historically is as what it is, which is. Right. Driving sustainable, profitable growth. Haven't put it in the context of the bigger picture, which is at least in fact for publicly traded companies. Share price.

[Linda Boff]

It's a great question when I think about. I'll tell you a story but I'll frame it first a little bit Seth, if that's okay. So one of the things that I think is dangerous to start pulling apart is your brand, your marketing, your reputation and to start saying this is what comms does, this is what marketing does, this is what strategy does. Because to the end user, the consumer, whoever the stakeholder is, it is really all one thing.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. They don't see Org design.

[Linda Boff]

There is no award for best function, at least none that I've ever seen. So I think that is so true. But when I look at the collective of the power that we all yield together or that the function so to speak yields it is to me and again I'll tell you a little story in a moment inextricably linked to the confidence that people have in a company. The confidence in a company, you know, is Apple worth the share price it's worth. Maybe is Google. Maybe they are because their products are fantastic. But there's so much belief as well. Belief in not just what they've done, but to me, share price is also a belief in the future.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Linda Boff]

Isn't that what you're kind of betting on? So as I was, you know, nearing the, the end of my, my GE tenure I was talking to the CEO and I'll probably always remember this conversation because it was such a lovely one where we were talking about, you know, impact and you. There was quite a transformation, as I said, from where we were both from a share value point of view. The portfolio, the brand itself was at, you know, heights of heights when I left and has still maintained that. And I remember him saying, look, I'll, I'll never know how much marketing contributed to our share price.

[Seth Godin]

This is, this is the CEO.

[Linda Boff]

Yeah, this is one of your CEOs. He said, I'll never know how much contributed, but I know that it did. And I think that in a nutshell, sometimes can be a metaphor for marketing. Sometimes we don't know down to the penny or the dollar or the, you know, a much, a much larger form of currency. Exactly what we have done, but in the absence of it, can you imagine. And I've over the years talked so often about how brand is, is an investment and it's, it's putting dollars in the bank and you have to put a lot of dollars in the bank where there's going to be some withdrawals and what you have left is sort of what you've earned. And I think of that when I think about that story. Right, you, you earn the right to gain people's trust and, and therefore their money. And they have to believe that you can do this. One of the things we did a couple times a year, you know, was reputation polling. And you know, the more people saw GE as an innovative company, the more they were willing to come work for us, to do business with us and to invest in us.

[Seth Godin]

Which also speaks to the power and import of brand, which is for activities that aren't end user driven, but are talent retention and acquisition.

[Linda Boff]

Huge.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, huge.

[Linda Boff]

I mean the, the, you know, what price do you put on how employees feel? Yeah, I, I think it's priceless.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, right.

[Linda Boff]

It's exponential work. It's exponential passion. It's, you know, it's part of driving a share price forward.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, it absolutely, absolutely is. And margin for that matter. So, you know, I mentioned when I finally got around to introducing you and I left so much out, but you know that over the last. What's it now, 15, 16, eight. How many, how long have you been.

[Linda Boff]

It said differently about 10 months.

[Seth Godin]

Only 10 months?

[Linda Boff]

10 months.

[Seth Godin]

Oh, see, let's see, you know, seemed long. It's gone while needless to say, the scale of said differently in ge. Slightly different. Slightly different, yeah. What have you learned as the chief executive of a business that maybe causes you to appreciate or understand or have empathy for chief executives, that even as the empathetic human you are, you didn't have before.

[Linda Boff]

I always felt that the CEO seat was the loneliest seat in the company. It was the one that, at the end of the day, you put your head on the pillow and, you know, you've had to make all these decisions and you've had to allocate capital and figure out, you know, from a team point of view where to elevate and where not to. It is one thing to be empathetic, it's another thing to feel it. It's not so much that I feel lonely, it's that I feel responsible. Right. And I.

[Seth Godin]

The buck does stop.

[Linda Boff]

The, the buck does stop. And I felt that way as cmo. Certainly the, you know, I had a, you know, a team I felt incredibly responsible for. But, but it's, it's drastically different. I truly feel as though it's, yes, it's the work we want to do, great work for our clients, but it's, it's also the bottom line.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Linda Boff]

I mean, it's, we're beholden, we're owned by private equity. You know, they're real numbers. So the part that is unchanged. You didn't ask me this, but I'm going to say it is the importance of how much time you spend on people.

[Seth Godin]

Say more.

[Linda Boff]

You know, as I grew in my career, that time with my team, time with people took up a disproportionate, disproportionate amount of time, as I think it does for, for many, many people.

[Seth Godin]

I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt you because what I can tell you is it, it probably does for many people. Not, however, the way you, who were a mentor to literally hundreds. There's what, what you've heard me say it before. There is a buff diaspora of, of the people you mentored, both who were in your direct reports and far, far beyond. So you, you have always been very, very human and very oriented to, and, and humane.

[Linda Boff]

It's very kind. Thank you. That part doesn't change. It's just you, you do it in ways where it's more than just, you know, a function that you're used to. You're spending time with, you know, with, with finance, you're spending time with legal. You're spending a lot more time with the board. So I, I, I give the three CEOs I worked for and many, many of the people I worked with in my team credit for whatever leadership abilities I now have. I like leading a team. I get a lot of joy out of it. We had a town hall this morning. I loved putting that together. Rashad was my guest. I mean, I love that kind of stuff.

[Seth Godin]

Rashad Chibakawala.

[Linda Boff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the idea of picking a direction and driving to that direction and building something, exactly what I wanted to do. And I wanted to do something. I think I've said this to you that I've never done before. It's hard to do something you've never done before.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. Scary.

[Linda Boff]

It's. It's a little scary. It's a little scary. Good days are really good. Bad days are kind of terrifying.

[Seth Godin]

How has your career as a marketer influenced the type of chief executive you are? Recognizing, of course, that you're now on the service side. But let's put distinction aside.

[Linda Boff]

I think it helps so many ways. I mean, I know you talk about this, you've talked about this on some of your podcasts, that it's a shame they're not more marketers who become CEOs.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Linda Boff]

It's the premise of the whole podcast. This is a little different because I am still in the same space, but I would say that it's. I think I became a marketer because I love diversity. I love diversity of ideas, I love diversity of people, I love different problem sets, etc. That prepared me beautifully for agency life, where everything is diverse. Right. There is not one marketing challenge. There's not one company. It comes in all different flavors. I think that was terrific preparation, the financials, absolutely huge. I was beholden to business goals as a cmo, to growth goals. I still am. That was very helpful. And then I think the. How do I describe this? You know, as a marketeer, I think you are constantly being asked to interpret what's going on outside, bring it inside, and connect it to growth. And I think that has been exceptionally helpful because you can't just stare down at what's in front of you. You have to look all over. You have to look to the side. You have to understand what's going on in industries that may be adjacent, that may and. And sort of bite you if you're not thinking about it and quick enough. So I think those are things that. That helped me.

[Seth Godin]

One of the great, I think, privileges of my career was that early in my career, I went from client side to the agency side. And what I've always credited, even those first weeks on the agency side, where suddenly I was. I was in pitches for three or four different clients in three or four different categories. And two, that leap to mind was within the same. I think it was seven or 10 days we were pitching Apple. It's a very different Apple back then. And degree deodorant. And I was, as I was preparing for the pitches, I was struck by how much in fact they had in common. Right. What leaps to mind is, you know, switching costs. Right. Apple was not a dominant player back then. And fear of failure, right. Because I remember the deodorant company. The worst thing you could do when you switch is raise your hand and somebody sees an underarm circle. Now that you've for 10 months been seeing such an array of brands across an array of categories, are there any commonalities that you're like, hey, this is just. We're all fighting the same battle.

[Linda Boff]

God. So I think there are more commonalities than there are differences. It really doesn't matter if you're in hand lotion or you're in financial services or you're in telco. All companies that, you know, categories that we work with, you know, to me, everybody is trying to figure out AI in varying degrees. Nobody with, I think, you know, is. Has greatly leaped ahead per se. Obviously the big telecom companies, I mean, the big tech companies have. So I think there's a. Okay, how are we going to figure this out? It surprises me how many companies are still asking Seth the basic question of how do we differentiate ourselves? How do we take what makes us really special and find a way to talk about it? And it's so essential. You know, GE used to say, you know, you can't sell if you can't tell. Right. Like you can't. You need to be able to figure out who you are, what makes you different, what makes you special, why somebody should spend time and money. And that's pretty common.

[Seth Godin]

Can. Can. So there's been such a explosion of products and services across categories in markets around the world over the last few decades that, that, you know, there's a certain commoditization of same. Right. Which is. And what I mean, there is like. Like there are very few categories in which something isn't good enough where the alternative or a portfolio of alternatives aren't. They're good enough. Right. Not in every, but in many in those categories. And you've talked a number of times about differentiation. Can meaningful differentiation be the marketing, be the brand, be the narrative that wraps around the product? Was the product 6 of 1/2 dozen of another other? Apple again, is a perfect example. Right. Which is I think I've told this story on the show before, but years ago, I had a computer company as, as a client. They were releasing something at the time that was lighter than air, Apple Air, it was smaller. They were trying to figure out where to price it. So they took the clamshell, put it in front of focus groups and just put different logos on it. It. Their logo was not a high price. The exact same product with the Apple logo on it, you know, 2, 3, 3x. Right. We've talked about that here for sure, in previous episodes, which is, you know, the role of brand and driving that price elasticity. But putting that aside, driving margin, putting that aside, can that be the most.

[Linda Boff]

Important differentiator brand itself, Brandon?

[Seth Godin]

Marketing, in fact, which then takes me back to shareholder value.

[Linda Boff]

I think so. I mean, I think it's in some ways the essence of what a brand does. Right, right. Isn't that the promise? The promise that, you know, there is an unlock of sorts that is more delightful, more satisfying, makes you feel a little better, makes you look a little better. And I think it is foundational to what brand is. I think marketing is a little more nuanced than that. But I think for brand, you know, it's. When I love a brand, I want to know everything about it. I want to spend time with it. I, I want to tell people about it. And if I'm delighted, I become that advocate and that extra evangelist. Yeah, the evangelist. The extra, the extra volume around it. But on the other side, if you're disappointed by certain touch points, if there isn't consistency, if you know the online experience in no way matches what the product promise is, it all falls apart. So the wrapper is. The wrapper is great. The wrapper is important. The product's important out.

[Seth Godin]

Which takes me to two things. One, you know, I want to get your definition of marketing because you rightly distinguish between the two. But I also, I want to give a shout out to William White, who on a earlier episode of the show added a word to the defin, a definition of brand as a promise. He said a brand is a promise kept. And I think that that's nice. That kept is everything and really leans into what you were just saying, which is, it's more. So what's. When you think, what is marketing? Where does it, where does it begin and end?

[Linda Boff]

I mean, it, it begins with whoever your audience is and you work back. To me, marketing is about satisfying the needs of your audience, your customer with your products, your services, whatever it is you're selling to Drive growth for the.

[Seth Godin]

Company and all the things that add up.

[Linda Boff]

And all the things that add up. But the mistakes I've seen and some of the mistakes I've made are when you think you have the right product, the right service, but you've ignored the marketplace entirely. And I think marketing, is there an.

[Seth Godin]

Example where you've seen that whether within.

[Linda Boff]

A company, you've been part of an example of ours. I remember years ago in our healthcare business, we had a portable ultrasound. Literally, it was almost the size of an iPhone. You could carry it in your hand and you could use it in remote areas to do, you know, sonograms and that kind of thing. It was a fantastic product.

[Seth Godin]

I'm gonna tell you what, I think they just featured something like it on. If you've been watching the Pit Pitt on Max, I think, well, now it's great show, by the way. Yeah, yeah.

[Linda Boff]

However, when we first introduced it, which had to be could have been 15 years ago, we'd done no market research. We hadn't talked to the people in remote areas that could be using it. And so we had a product without any insights. And I think that's, you can have a great product and sometimes it works, but I think if you don't go all the way and you haven't worked on what is it that's going to make the market?

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Linda Boff]

You have a product without a market. Isn't that marketing?

[Seth Godin]

Yes. I mean, quite literally.

[Linda Boff]

Quite literally. So it's, it's elemental. But I, I don't know. I, I think of it in a perhaps overly simplistic way. Marketing is growth. But how do you drive growth?

[Seth Godin]

I, I, I would push back on, on your choice of word and being overly simplistic, which is to say at least my bias is that especially in times of great complexity, and these certainly are those simplifying. Simplistic. Bad. Simple.

[Linda Boff]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

Simpler.

[Linda Boff]

Simpler.

[Seth Godin]

Better. I think there's a great Einstein quote. Right. Which is, you know, make everything as simple as possible, just not more so and, and kind of, you know. So speaking of simple, what's the hardest part of being a cmo from your perspective? What's a, what's a CEO and a CFO and a board need to understand about how challenged that position can be?

[Linda Boff]

Well, I think it's a few things. I think it is. In my experience, many CEOs and many companies have different definitions of what a CMO is. Yes. And unfortunately that does no favors to CMOs. I think the variance in definition is unique in the C suite. I Don't think there's variance in a CFO's definition. I don't think you say, well, it would be nice if they had FP and A experience. Right. So I think the fact that people get very attached to their marketer, but they don't have some sort of, well, this is what a marketer really stands for. So that's number one. I think the. One of the things that I found along the way, and I scraped my knees doing this more than once, is I think the CMOs who go into a C suite and are trying to speak the language of marketing are invariably going to stumble. Invariably.

[Seth Godin]

As opposed to the language of business.

[Linda Boff]

As opposed to the language of business. A dozen years ago, maybe even a little more than that. I remember going to our executive committee. This is the first CEO I worked for. And it was early days of search. And I remember I was so passionate. You know, we. We've got to be focused on what our customers are searching for. Now that sounds beyond simple, but when you make billion dollar products, nobody believes, well, why would they be searching for them? Right. It's always through a direct sales channel. And I remember thinking, how can they not get it? I remember literally leaving a meeting and thinking, why aren't they getting it? And then I realized they're not getting it because I'm not using the words of business. I'm using my words. And, you know, how do you reframe it? I reframed it around what B2B customers are looking for and where competitors are showing up.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Linda Boff]

And I brought Jim Laszinski in to talk to them from Google.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Linda Boff]

Sometimes you need to hear it from the source itself. Off.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes perfect sense. I'm wondering, as you look back on, on your career to date, is there a moment or two that comes to mind where you're like, yeah, this, this is the moment that my fundamental opinion about X or understanding of Y was formed.

[Linda Boff]

Yeah. Years and years ago, early part of my GE career. Beth and I. Beth Comstock and I formed a digital advisory council group of maybe eight or 10 people. And our idea was, let's bring people in who would never come to work for us, never want to have a batch. It was a great group of people. Jonah Peretti, who founded BuzzFeed, it was right after he founded it. Guy who founded 4chan, a design artist. I mean, just a wonderful of external thinkers. Scott Heiferman, who created meetup. We're sitting around the table talking and it actually goes back, Seth, to maybe your very first question to me, and I remember we were describing some piece of technology and you'll forgive me, I have no idea what the technology was.

[Seth Godin]

I will forgive you.

[Linda Boff]

We were describing, and I half apologized for how obtuse it must be to this group of very Internet savvy, digitally savvy people. And I remember it was Scott said, why are you apologizing? Your company's so much more interesting than any other company I talk to. And I remember that moment because. And I told the story in various settings. It was a moment where I realized, I don't want to be somebody else. We don't need to be Facebook meta or Google or Amazon.

[Seth Godin]

Facebook at the time.

[Linda Boff]

Facebook at the time. Certainly we are sexy. That's who we are. But we're sexy our way. And we should never apologize. We should just figure out how to take that interestingness and to your point, be as innovative in our marketing as we can. Well, and both our points reflective. And it was really. It was that moment. That was one. I'll give you a second one which goes back maybe to the Bath Diaspora a little bit. I've had been blessed with fantastic teams. And there was a woman who had just come to work for me and she asked my permission to explore a new platform called Instagram. She said, you know, I think it would be pretty cool if we went out in the wild and shot photos of our giant wind turbines and all these things in the wild. And I was smarter, lucky enough to say yes and to realize that we couldn't be relevant if I didn't. We didn't listen to people who were much closer to the technology at the time and who could help us reframe and put on different lenses and.

[Seth Godin]

So what'd you do? What'd you do with that insight? Her.

[Linda Boff]

Her idea, we started an Instagram channel that was. We never got to where Nat Gl was, but it was a fantastic. It still is Instagram channel. And by far the first one ever in the B2B space. And it showed. It was kind of the. The porn of big machines.

[Seth Godin]

There is a certain beauty to them, certainly.

[Linda Boff]

I think. Think they're gorgeous.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Linda Boff]

So. So, you know, listen to people.

[Seth Godin]

It's. Listen to me. Easier said than done. Right?

[Linda Boff]

I know.

[Seth Godin]

So I want to end first by thanking you so much for being here and sharing what you have. But by going back to the beginning and. And you talked about, I think in the very first question, your answer to it, you talked about, you know, creating love for G. How do you measure for love.

[Linda Boff]

Internally it's pride. And I think it is tangible when you say it. Sure, there are numbers like how many people stay in their jobs, but it's also the visible pride of how people show up. So I think you measure it that way. I think you measure it by people who share your truths and your stories and what it is that, you know, gives them goosebumps about what you're doing. And I think it's. It's a differentiator, in my view, in that people look at you differently. I genuinely believe, and probably always will, that there is no brand like GE in the B2B industrial marketplace that has the humanity, that has the deep engagement and has the followership. And I think those add up to love.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, yeah. In. In business, just as in life. All right, a very last question. I think I might have said that was the last question. I like last, last. This is the last one. For the CEOs, board members, CFOs, in our audience, any parting words of wisdom about, for those in particular that don't understand and or come from marketing, how to be better allies to their chief marketing officers and marketing orgs.

[Linda Boff]

The more you stitch your CMOs in to all aspects of leadership, the better, the more time they spend with you with the cfo, with the general counsel, with the head of hr. In my, certainly my last five years or so at ge, I spent much more time in the C suite with that cast of characters than I did in the function. But as CEOs who are listening, your marketers will bring the outside world in. Let them, let them share those insights and make them a partner. Certainly, make them a business partner, but make them a partner in terms of conversations that you're having about how to grow the business in new ways.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. It's hard to be a driver of growth of the business if you don't understand the business, and it's hard to.

[Linda Boff]

Be that driver if you're not in the room.

[Seth Godin]

That's right. That's right.

[Linda Boff]

Being in the room matters.

[Seth Godin]

Linda Buff, thank you so much.

[Linda Boff]

Thank you, Seth. This was so fun. Love it. Thank you for all you do. Thank you for all you do through this podcast. For all of us in marketing.

[Seth Godin]

I just show up and, you know, know, put on my hard hat. But thank you for saying it. And I should say, I don't know when the episode's going to go live, but congratulations again on what will be your induction into the AAF hall of fame. April 24th, I believe.

[Linda Boff]

That's right.

[Seth Godin]

25Th.

[Linda Boff]

24Th. Let's go 24th.

[Seth Godin]

All right, 24th.

[Linda Boff]

Thank you. And thank you for all your support.

[Seth Godin]

Please, I didn't do anything. Thanks, Linda.

[Linda Boff]

Thanks that.

[Seth Godin]

Thanks for listening. If you like the show, don't forget to smash that subscribe button and give it five stars, cuz I don't think you can give it six. Appreciate you. We'll see you next time.