The one with NFL CMO Tim Ellis on future-proofing the league, Monday Morning Marketing, and why the short-term must always support the long-term.

Summary

The CEO’s Guide to Marketing: Episode Summary with Tim Ellis, NFL CMO

Podcast Information:

• Title: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing
• Host: Forbes
• Description: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing offers a no-nonsense take on the business of marketing and the marketing of business. Hosted by Seth Matlins, Managing Director of the Forbes CMO Network, this series provides a master class in raising the C-suite's marketing IQ through candid conversations with renowned marketers and executives.
• Episode: The one with NFL CMO Tim Ellis on future-proofing the league, Monday Morning Marketing, and why the short-term must always support the long-term.
• Release Date: April 23, 2025

---

1. Breaking Super Bowl Advertising Norms

Tim Ellis recounts his pivotal role in transforming Super Bowl advertising through the iconic 2011 Volkswagen "Darth Vader" ad.

• Challenges Over Timing and Execution: Ellis describes the initial resistance from Volkswagen executives, both in North America and Wolfsburg, regarding the timing of the ad release. The conventional wisdom was to debut Super Bowl ads during the game itself to maximize impact.

  "Everyone's nervous that, you know, you're spending a lot of money. Everyone's looking at it, everyone's going to grade it." — Tim Ellis [00:29]

• Defining the Ad as a Brand Campaign: Ellis argued that the ad was not merely a product advertisement but a strategic brand campaign aimed at elevating Volkswagen's presence in the U.S. market.

  "You can't think of this as a product ad. This is an ad for the brand." — Tim Ellis [01:55]

• Pushing Against Conventional Wisdom: Despite internal doubts, Ellis was convinced that airing the ad before the game would create pre-game buzz and set the stage for a strong Super Bowl presence.

  "I just was relentless in the way that I sort of talked about that ad and how it was going to... be the talk of the whole Super Bowl." — Tim Ellis [04:07]

• Resulting Success: The decision paid off as the ad went viral ahead of the game, significantly boosting brand visibility and sales.

  "My niece called me... your ad went viral. I'm like, yeah, so thank you." — Tim Ellis [07:56]

---

2. Transition to the NFL and Branding Challenges

Ellis discusses his transition to the NFL as CMO and the branding challenges he faced upon taking the role in 2018.

• Assessing the NFL's Position: Upon joining, Ellis identified a decline in the youth audience and underrepresentation of women and Latinos among NFL fans.

  "There's been a steady trend downward of the youth audience and you're losing females, you're nowhere near where you need to be with Latinos." — Tim Ellis [13:14]

• Driving Urgency for Change: Ellis emphasized the necessity of an aggressive acquisition strategy to engage younger demographics to prevent the fan base from aging out.

  "If you don't do that now, your numbers are going to dwindle every single year." — Tim Ellis [15:37]

---

3. Cultural Resonance and Audience Engagement

Focusing on integrating youth culture, Ellis outlines strategies to make the NFL more relevant to younger audiences.

• Strategic Focus Areas: Music, Gaming, and Fashion: Ellis spearheaded initiatives to connect the NFL with music, gaming, and fashion—key areas of interest for younger demographics.

  "We focused on music, gaming, and fashion. Those are the three things we just religiously focused on for several years." — Tim Ellis [19:16]

• Helmets Off Strategy: Aiming to humanize players, the "Helmets Off Strategy" showcased athletes without helmets to foster personal connections with fans.

  "We have to do all of our marketing now with their helmets off. But more importantly, we got to know who these guys are." — Tim Ellis [18:18]

• Emphasizing Authenticity and Vulnerability: By allowing players to share personal stories, including mental health struggles, Ellis enhanced the NFL's cultural relevance.

  "Dare to be vulnerable and show them in a more compassionate light as well." — Tim Ellis [19:29]

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4. Balancing Short-Term and Long-Term Marketing Goals

Ellis delves into the importance of aligning short-term marketing initiatives with long-term brand sustainability.

• Integrating Immediate Wins with Future Growth: While delivering on short-term metrics is essential, Ellis stresses that these efforts must support the overarching long-term vision of future-proofing the NFL.

  "The brands that are the most successful constantly have their eye on how the short term is building for the long." — Tim Ellis [30:54]

• Building a Marketing Machine: Emphasizing a balanced approach, Ellis highlights the integration of data-driven marketing and creative campaigns to achieve sustained growth.

  "How you build that machine is really important." — Tim Ellis [36:42]

---

5. Leadership and Executive Relations

Navigating a board of influential executives, Ellis discusses his leadership style centered on honesty, transparency, and earning trust.

• Honest Communication: Ellis maintains open dialogue with executives, presenting both successes and areas needing improvement to build credibility.

  "I'm incredibly honest and transparent about what I think of how something's going to work or not work." — Tim Ellis [12:34]

• Earning Trust Through Accountability: By meticulously laying out marketing strategies and their anticipated impacts, Ellis ensures that his initiatives are understood and supported at the highest levels.

  "I very carefully lay out... this is how it works. This is why we're doing what we're doing." — Tim Ellis [38:04]

---

6. Collaboration and Social Good Initiatives

Ellis highlights collaborative efforts beyond the NFL, particularly focusing on mental health campaigns involving multiple sports leagues.

• Leading Cross-League Mental Health Campaigns: Ellis spearheaded initiatives that brought together 11 different leagues to address mental health, showcasing the NFL's commitment to social responsibility.

  "Led the effort to recruit what I think became the participation of 11 leagues." — Tim Ellis [21:45]

• Transcending Competition for Collective Good: By collaborating across leagues, Ellis emphasizes the importance of collective action in areas that transcend competitive boundaries.

  "This is an area where there really isn't any competition. This is a... a social good." — Tim Ellis [22:29]

---

7. Overcoming Fear of Alienation

Addressing concerns about alienating traditional fans, Ellis outlines how embracing diversity and inclusion can enhance brand strength.

• Aligning with Core Values: Marketing initiatives that promote diversity and inclusion not only align with the NFL's values but also attract a broader fan base.

  "Diversity and inclusion is helping the NFL be better." — Tim Ellis [28:54]

• Authentic Storytelling: By focusing on authentic and relatable stories, the NFL engages new audiences without alienating existing fans.

  "We are always very authentic in the way we come across." — Tim Ellis [25:43]

---

8. Advice for CEOs and CMOs

Ellis offers strategic advice to CEOs and CFOs on supporting marketing teams and embracing calculated risks.

• Allowing Marketing Teams to Experiment: Leaders should create an environment where marketing teams have the freedom to innovate and learn from both successes and failures.

  "Give your CMOs the permission to... go fuck up, as we discussed before, so that they can succeed brilliantly because of that permission." — Host [31:00]

• Deep Understanding and Communication: Ellis advises that CEOs and boards should invest time in understanding marketing strategies and the rationale behind them, fostering better collaboration and support.

  "Take the time to really sit down and ask questions and listen." — Tim Ellis [40:31]

• Marketing Alignment with Business Goals: Ensuring that marketing initiatives are closely tied to business objectives helps in demonstrating their value and securing ongoing support.

  "I lay out... this is directly going to do this, this is indirectly going to do that." — Tim Ellis [38:04]

---

9. Conclusion

Tim Ellis' insights reveal a strategic blend of creativity, data-driven marketing, and authentic storytelling as the pillars of successful branding. By challenging conventional norms, fostering diversity, and maintaining transparent leadership, Ellis has effectively future-proofed the NFL while driving substantial growth and engagement.

• Final Thoughts on Marketing Excellence: Ellis underscores the necessity of balancing creative excellence with measurable outcomes to build a resilient and dynamic brand.

  "You have to connect with them on a human level and on an emotional level. These are the kinds of things that we have done and need to continue to do which will fuel our success." — Tim Ellis [38:05]

• Encouraging Open Communication: Emphasizing the importance of ongoing dialogue between marketing teams and executive leadership, Ellis champions a collaborative approach to achieving business success.

  "We're slaves to the right KPIs to ensure that things are having the right impact." — Tim Ellis [36:46]

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "This is going to make people think differently about Volkswagen." — Tim Ellis [01:55]
• "I refused to take no for an answer." — Tim Ellis [04:29]
• "We are slaves to the right KPIs to ensure that things are having the right impact." — Tim Ellis [36:46]
• "Diversity and inclusion is helping the NFL be better." — Tim Ellis [28:54]

---

Key Takeaways:

• Innovative Thinking: Ellis demonstrates the importance of challenging industry norms to achieve groundbreaking results.
• Authentic Engagement: Building genuine connections with diverse audiences leads to sustained brand loyalty and growth.
• Strategic Leadership: Transparent and honest communication with executive teams fosters trust and alignment on marketing initiatives.
• Balanced Approach: Successful marketing harmonizes creative endeavors with data-driven strategies to support both short-term gains and long-term vision.

This episode of The CEO’s Guide to Marketing offers valuable lessons for business leaders seeking to elevate their marketing strategies by embracing innovation, authenticity, and strategic alignment.

Transcript

[Tim Ellis]

Foreign.

[Unknown Host]

2011, you did an ad for Volkswagen that is known as the ad that changed super bowl advertising forever. That was a headline, which is kind of funny, given that you're now the CMO of the NFL. But before it could be the ad that changed super bowl advertising forever, you had to change a few minds. Tell us a story about it.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, well, everyone knows that there's a tremendous amount of pressure to do any super bowl ad, right? And because everyone's nervous that, you know.

[Unknown Host]

You'Re on a lot of money, right?

[Tim Ellis]

A lot of money. Everyone's looking at it, everyone's going to grade it. They got the USA Today ad meter, you know, that's going to come out and everyone's going to look at it and so forth and even, believe it or not, and I work for Volkswagen, a German company. The headquarters are based in, you know, in Wolfsburg. Even the executives in Wolfsburg were really nervous about the whole thing. Well, you know, it was a relatively new agency at the time, Deutsch la. And they had an ad that was, I saw immediately when I, when I, when they presented it to me was just gold, right? But it was foreign a car. It was a new car. The first car that we, that we did there in Chattanooga, first time that they had manufacturing in the United States. And the car wasn't coming out until, I think, September or something. So it was like six months or something before the car came out. And, you know, they're like, well, we can't go this early with it with this.

[Unknown Host]

The. Those who said that were. Were your right bosses.

[Tim Ellis]

We're not going to spend all this money and come out with this, with this ad this early. And I said, well, first of all, this is. You can't think of this as a product ad. This is an ad for the brand.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Tim Ellis]

This is going to make people think differently about Volkswagen. And, you know, Volkswagen, it's. It's like one of the leading car manufacturers, of course, in the world, together with Toyota and. But, but in the United States, there's still a niche brand, right? Like, this is a way to really.

[Unknown Host]

In particular, in 2011.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, exactly. And this is a way to really get people to pay attention to this, to this, this, this car brand and get them interested in all of our cars, including.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

The car that.

[Unknown Host]

Was that. The brief. I mean, was that what. The brief that you gave to.

[Tim Ellis]

Oh, it was, it was, it was a branded. Yeah, the brief was a brand ad. Okay. Now, on top of that, I said, and let's, let's be honest if you come out, this. This car is going to come out, there's gonna be a ton of press and a lot of big, you know, big campaigns around this car. When you put it out this early, people are going to think this must be a big deal, right? This. This must be a really important car to be talking about this early, before it comes out in the fall.

[Unknown Host]

By the way, which, Which. Which Volkswagen are we talking about?

[Tim Ellis]

It was the new Passat.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[Tim Ellis]

And the 2012 Passat, it was going to be coming out in. In the US but it was important. It was that it was the first car that they were going to manufacture in the new Chattanooga factory.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

Again, that's why there was so much pressure on the whole thing, and there was so much focus and interest in it. But again, because. Because it was a Super bowl, that was a big deal. So anyway, so ultimately, you know, we. We kept trying, and we had a little bit of time before we had to make a final decision. And we, you know, we. We kept looking at different ideas, but every time there was another round of work, I mean, there's. It was just nowhere near as powerful as that ad. And I was going to be damned if I wasn't doing that ad. I mean, I was doing that ad one way or the other. So I just kept, like, I. I just was relentless in the way that I sort of talked about that ad and how it was going to, you know, bring the brand back and how it's going to create so much excitement, and it would be the talk of the. The whole super bowl and so forth to the point to where, you know, even the agency was getting nervous because they knew my boss, who was the, you know, the head CEO of Volkswagen North America, was also, like, very influenced by the guys in Wolfsburg. So he didn't want to do it either.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

So essentially it was me trying to defend it against my own executives in North America and Germany. And then the agency started getting nervous.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

So the. The top levels of the agency was just like, oh, we don't want to do this, because.

[Unknown Host]

Is that because expectations. You were just creating expectations that were sky high or. Or. Why? What were they?

[Tim Ellis]

No, because I was being so damn stubborn.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

Because I was just being like, no, I'm. We're doing it.

[Unknown Host]

No, but why was the agency nervous? I'm. Shouldn't be yourself.

[Tim Ellis]

Well, because they knew that the. The head. The CEO of North America was getting angry.

[Unknown Host]

I see, right?

[Tim Ellis]

He was. He had had enough of it. He was, like, fed up. He wanted to do what the executives in Willsburg wanted to do. And I was just like, that's just the wrong decision. I mean, that's, this, that's just a really bad, bad decision. So I just kept, and what was, what, what was your, I just, I refused to take no for an answer.

[Unknown Host]

Why did they think you were wrong and how did you ultimately convince them?

[Tim Ellis]

Because they couldn't, they couldn't get their head around them because they couldn't get their head around the timing of when you're supposed to do a car launch.

[Unknown Host]

They are supposed to, you're supposed to.

[Tim Ellis]

Conventional, you know, conventional wisdom. You're supposed to do a car launch two to two and a half, three weeks before, you know, the car came out. And of course we launched a lot of cars. So that was the normal cadence of when you would come out with something like that. But so I had to really. And ultimately, I think the, the argument that won them over was that this was going to lift the brand. This was going to create a halo around the Volkswagen brand and that all of the cars underneath the umbrella would benefit from it. And ultimately it would drive our sales short term and long term because people would like the brand, they want to be more, they'd be more interested in it and ultimately they would, you know, they would come in and, and, and buy a car and did it and it did. Oh, listen, that was one of the, one of the great things about actually both of my companies. I work for Volvo and Volkswagen. Very unconventional campaigns on both, both brands. But it drove interest and it drove, it drove, ultimately drove traffic into the dealerships with, which resulted in sales.

[Unknown Host]

So for our listeners and viewers, we're talking about what was the Darth vader ad in 2011? Why did it, what did it do the first, what did it do that changed super bowl advertising from your perspective, if not from whoever wrote that headline?

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, Time magazine came out. There's a lot of discussion around that ad because again, talk about conventional wisdom. At the time, the big, none of the big advertisers were putting their ads out there before for the actual game itself.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

So the conventional wisdom was you always waited to debut your ad on the actual game.

[Unknown Host]

So we have you to thank for the onslaught.

[Tim Ellis]

Thank you. You're welcome. Right, the craziness that we all have right now.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ellis]

Because, I mean, I, you know, and the reason for that, it's very simple. Again, believing in your gut.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

The, the reason for that is that I, I only had a 30 second slot, right. For, for the ad. And I did everything in my power to get a 60. I was begging people. I was calling the NFL. I was.

[Unknown Guest]

I don't.

[Tim Ellis]

I can't remember which network was running it, but I was calling everybody to try to get a 60 on there. And the reason for that was because the 30 was fantastic. The. The 60 was absolutely brilliant. So when I saw the edits and we worked hard to get the 30 as great as it could be, and again, it was very, very strong. But now I got 60. The 60 was amazing, right? So my. Everyone's got to see that 60. So I just said, well, fine, then we'll just put it on YouTube. Put it like on Wednesday or Thursday, we'll put on YouTube. And, oh, my God, everybody was going nuts because they're like, no, we. You don't do that. You don't. You don't put the ad on before the game.

[Unknown Host]

Like, you know, did they think you were cannibalizing your own investment?

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, they thought that it would be less interesting. They thought it would be less powerful. Right. They thought it would be a letdown because they'd already seen it before.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, right.

[Tim Ellis]

It wouldn't be as special.

[Unknown Host]

And you reject.

[Tim Ellis]

And I argued just the opposite. I said, no, no, this is. Things going to catch fire. Everyone's going to be talking about it by Friday. So all the networks are going to, you know, the roundup of the super bowl ads to watch. They're all going to be like, just going off about this new ad from Volkswagen, and ultimately, before the game ever starts, we're going to win, right? We're going to win the ad war. And, And I tell you, everybody fought me on that. That, like, it was just like. But I was just. I was sure that it would catch fire. So ultimately, that's what happened. It was funny because my. My. My niece called me, like, as soon as we. We put it out there, like on a. I don't know, Wednesday. And the next morning, I had over150,000 views or something like that, which at that time.

[Unknown Host]

At that time.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, at that time, 2011 was crazy. And she goes, oh, Uncle Tim, your ad went viral. I'm like, yeah, so thank you.

[Unknown Host]

Thanksgiving was going to be so much better that year.

[Tim Ellis]

And then, of course, what happens that everybody took credit for that. You know, once. Once. Once we made the decision, everyone like, yeah, we always knew it would catch far. Like, yeah, okay, whatever.

[Unknown Host]

So. So actually, that's interesting, right? Success has many parents. Failure not often is that the case did. While it may have changed super bowl advertising, certainly pregame advertising. Did it fundamentally change the way your North American CEO and the folks in Wolfsburg thought about marketing? Or was it.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, yeah, I did. I think that they realized that that great creative story, well told and executed well, that while the messaging was very important, that the power of that creative could actually move people.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

That, that you could, you could create a sensation with just a really well developed and executed piece of work. And the, and, and I've always believed in the power of great creative and what it can do. And, and I think that, you know, listen, you got to, you have to get the, the respect. You have to prove it right before people will trust you.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Ellis]

And, and ultimately, I think that's what happened. I mean, we, we did a lot of, again, a lot of very unconventional things.

[Unknown Host]

I want to, I want to, I want to stick a pin in that because I want to get into the unconventional. But first, for, for the audience, if you haven't caught on, today I'm sitting with Tim Ellis, who is currently and since 2018, the CMO of the NFL. Before joining the league as CMO, you were CMO at Activision. And your career has played out with many firsts in both the client and agency side. In addition, in the US and Europe, in addition to Volkswagen, with Goodby, Silverstein Partners, Publicists and others, you have a reputation and I believe from my experience with you, which is not limited, that it is deserved of, of doing the unconventional, of challenging the norms. I tend to think that in much of life, we have to earn the permission from those we work with, those who love us and whom we love to up to make mistakes. Right. Because forgiveness is what allows everything to keep moving forward. Amongst other things, I suppose. I've been in therapy a long time. You've always kind of assumed the permission, right? You've assumed the permission and then gone to earn it. Inside an organization like the one where you are today, where you have a board, I'll put that word in quotes for the moment, of not just the commissioner, but 32 of the most successful, wealthiest, powerful people in the world as that board, how do you balance your instincts and drive for the unconventional with perhaps their comfort with a more traditional approach? How do you go do what you want to do without letting what perhaps they don't know en masse about what you do and why it matters get in the way?

[Tim Ellis]

You know, I'm incredibly honest and transparent about what I think of how something's going to work or not work.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

I'm. I just tell the Truth, Right. And I don't, and I don't hold back. So in some of that, truth is not altogether positive. It's important.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

So they, they understand, I think that you kind of like earn the trust and credibility just by being, I say, brutally honest, but just really by telling them what you know and how you think it's all going to play out. So when I first got to the NFL, I was very open about, like, hey, here's where we are. Everything looks really good.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

You've got lots of people consistently watching programs and so forth, but if you go deeper, if you're watching the games, if you go deeper, you see that there's been a steady trend downward of the youth audience and you're losing females, you're nowhere near where you need to be with Latinos.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And I said, and by the way, you know, if you look at us from a cultural perspective, right, Compared to all the other major sports leagues, we're at the, we're at the bottom. Like at the very, very bottom.

[Unknown Host]

So. But that it's interesting, right? And you know, every marketer today is talking about cultural resonance and relevance moving at the speed of culture, yada, yada, yada. Yeah, I don't even know what that means anymore. But you were at the bottom of culture, as you just described it. And I want you to unpack what that means. And yet you were still selling more tickets, driving higher ratings and more licensing revenue than I think any other league. Right. So the function, I'm sorry, the, the monetization of brand, business and product was going gangbusters. Why'd they care?

[Tim Ellis]

They, they cared because I proved out to them that if they didn't make some changes right away, that their brand was going to continue to sink and age out, essentially, because all the people who were propping up the numbers were basically 40 plus white guys.

[Unknown Host]

Those are my. Me. That's me.

[Tim Ellis]

That's you. You and me. Right. Guys like you and me who were like propping up. And like I said, the numbers look good.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

If you just look at how many people were tuning into the game. Although at that time there was, there was beginning, you could see that the numbers were starting to go downwards a little bit.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, but I mean, but what's interesting still is of course the numbers are going down as media fragments is view habits change.

[Tim Ellis]

That's part of it. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

But you're still like, in a world where mass media no longer exists, the NFL day at, week in and week out, putting aside even the super bowl, is Kind of the last vestige of mass media.

[Tim Ellis]

Well, you got to be, you got to be careful to not get too caught up in your. Your numbers or your success currently.

[Unknown Host]

Sure.

[Tim Ellis]

Because. And there's. There were. And I explained, I think very, I think I explained to them in great detail why it mattered. I mean, Right. To future proof the league.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

Because obviously people age out.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

So if you don't. And we knew. And I just showed them the data. If you didn't get a young person to be a fan by the time they were 18, the likelihood of getting them to be a fan was almost impossible. It just didn't happen. Like there wasn't an acquisition strategy for a 32 year old.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And so I showed them that and I said, and, and so you're just, just to put for the top of the funnel just to get more people into the, to watching the games and to be fans. If you don't do that now, your numbers are going to dwindle every single year.

[Unknown Guest]

Right? Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Because what in, in your business, at least the business you're in today, it's not that they age out, it's that they die. Right. Because you know.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

Stick.

[Tim Ellis]

You're a fan for age out, meaning dead.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. So they become. So tam kind of shrinks in that moment. Unless you've got an aggressive acquisition strategy.

[Tim Ellis]

And population growth that was being driven by Latinos. And we were, we were nowhere near where we needed to be just to keep up with population growth. We were. No. Nowhere near where we needed to be. And then when I showed them, like even, you know, girls and women, there was a lot of women, like casual, casual fans who would maybe watch a game or two or three.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

Per season, but they weren't, they weren't really into the sport. So I said like, okay, we may have 45, 46% casual women as casual fans, but they need to be more avid. We have a very, very low base of avid fans. That's not good.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And so I started ringing the bell of urgency immediately. As soon as I went in there, I said, here's what's going to happen. I just showed it to them. I said, here's what's going to happen to us if we don't do something right away. And by the way, it needs to be relevant for young people to care.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

So we talk about cultural resonance. That really matters. And at that time, you know, the NBA was doing quite well, you know, from a cultural perspective, youth culture. And, and I said that we needed to do a Lot of things. Not only to bring these young people into the. The brand, so it would strengthen the brand over time and future, proof the brand, but would also drive energy into the brand. It would make it feel more relevant to young people and exciting to young people, which, by the way, also impacts older. Older people.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

So I. So we begin to do lots of things as sort of, you know, to. To. To connect with younger audiences, to bring in youth culture in a much bigger way. We focused on music, gaming, and fashion. Those are like the three things we just religiously focused on for several years. We did a campaign that was all. I shouldn't say a campaign. We did a marketing strategy that I just called the helmets off strategy. And essentially all that really meant was, like, everyone, no one knows who our players are first.

[Unknown Host]

Right?

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

They're wearing helmets.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And even. Even when they score a touchdown, they still have to keep their helmets on because of the rules of the game. So I said, just so people recognize our players, we've got to do all of our marketing now with their helmets off. But more importantly, we got to know who these guys are. For people to care and get involved, we have to show them as human beings, not just as elite athletes.

[Unknown Host]

Right. That's the narrative.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, exactly. So they connect with them on a human level.

[Unknown Host]

No, it's funny, I was talking to Linda Boff in an earlier episode, and she said something that your helmets off strategy reminds me of, which is when she was talking about her. Her time as CMO at ge, she talked about the need to make the invisible, in her case, engines visible. Right. And I think that's a little bit, or maybe a lot of what you were doing and kind of, you know, going behind the curtain so that you can connect to and understand and relate to, in your case, players.

[Tim Ellis]

That's right. And show them as human beings and talk about the things that your fans want to hear about or want they also are interested in. I mean, I said music, fashion, and gaming. Those happen to be the three things that young people most care about.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And then, you know, dare to show them. Dare to be vulnerable and show them in a more compassionate light as well.

[Unknown Host]

I mean, did the players get it? I mean, since the players were. Were closer to the demographic that you were trying to bring in. Right. They're all in twenties, more or less. Did they understand it? Did they connect to it in a way that helped bring the quote unquote board along immediately?

[Tim Ellis]

And they, by the way, they want to grow their own brands.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, Right.

[Tim Ellis]

Most. Most of these Guys don't last more than two or three years in the league. Right. So growing your own brand was also important to these players and actually caring enough to listen to them and develop a relationship that wasn't just transactional.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And so when you took the time to actually get to know them and help them express themselves in a way that would make them successful, not just on the field, but off the field, you just. We just. In some degrees, we, like, repaired relationships, but in, you know, mostly what we were doing is developing strong relationships. And, like, I can give you an example of something like mental health.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

A lot of these players care deeply about mental health. And, you know, you can imagine the stress of, like, being an elite athlete like that.

[Unknown Host]

I mean, I can only imagine it. I can't relate to it.

[Tim Ellis]

Well, but we all have stress. But like, these guys, the stress is incredible.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Tim Ellis]

And so, you know, and they obviously, they also have. As we all do, they also have friends and relatives and so forth who. Who suffer from anxiety and depression. And so, you know, they wanted to. To. To be in a campaign that I thought was very important. I started listening to the fans out there, and they. And one of the things I saw which caught my eye was like, they wanted to hear the NFL talk about the importance of mental health and wellness.

[Unknown Host]

Well, you and I are both on the board of the AD council, and. And what I. I want to just open the aperture on. On your story, because what you did here and for this campaign went beyond the league, went beyond the NFL, and you led the effort to recruit what I think became the participation of 11 leagues.

[Tim Ellis]

11. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And. And I'm fascinated about when at least theoretical competition becomes collaboration and what that was like.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, well, you know, Lisa, the CEO there, I. I talked.

[Unknown Host]

Lisa Sherman.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, Sherman. Yeah. I talked to her about how our fans had responded to the mental health campaign and how powerful it was to have these. Yeah. And to have these athletes speak in such an open, vulnerable way just how meaningful it was.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And it was also meaningful to other players that they dared get out there and talk in such a vulnerable way. And so I just, like, just imagine if we can get all the leagues together.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And, like, because I'm sure if NFL athletes would feel like they wanted to contribute to this and help, then I'm sure other athletes would as well. And so, you know, this is an area where there really isn't any competition.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

Like, this is. This is a. A. An area that is.

[Unknown Host]

We can all relate to competition.

[Tim Ellis]

It transcends, you know, we Talk about, you know, I, I have, I have a dual strategy at the NFL. One is like focus on the joy of the game and the other is to transcend the game.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And this is definitely a transcend the game area of focus. And so, you know, I just, Lisa and the, the team there over at Council, they helped me kind of bring the, the people together and we, we talked about the importance of it. We talked about whether we could, you know, get some of our best athletes and do this. And I just shared, you know, both my knowledge and experience and the data behind what I had done, but also shared my passion for it.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And why I thought it mattered and why it was so important to professional athletes. And ultimately we all came together and I thought now we're on our second. Actually we're on our second round of it now. We just had a meeting this week in fact, to talk about the next step in the.

[Unknown Host]

And are all 11 leagues back and.

[Tim Ellis]

If we might even have more. We'll see if it's all 11 or if it's a different, different, different mix. Yeah, but I think everyone felt really good about the, what we did before and very proud of it.

[Unknown Host]

So we're just talking about is kind of the, the collective good, the social good. Right. Which obviously is under a, a renewed sense of pressure with the current administration. The league has been pretty resolute and standing continu its efforts to champion inclusion, diversity, equity, etc. That too takes courage and at least in the moment is pushing against what is being pushed as the new status quo. How, how do you find the courage to do that as, as a, as a business? And what role does marketing play in it?

[Tim Ellis]

Well, listen, I think you did put your finger on it in terms of the business aspect of it because not only is what we're doing and have been doing a part of the values that we have at the NFL, but it's also helping us bring in more people, right? It's, it's attracting more people and which obviously for the NFL, we're only as strong as the people who want to engage in our content. Right? Like that's how we, that's how we earn money by selling our, our content and licensing our, our brand and our content to an increasingly number of partners. And so I always share with these folks and what, you know, listen, if you just look at the numbers, a lot of our more traditional fans don't like it.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

They don't like when we talk about some of these subjects. They just want us to stick to football. But you Know, they, they still love the NFL.

[Unknown Host]

Shut up and dribble.

[Tim Ellis]

Well, we. Yeah, that's right.

[Unknown Guest]

That's.

[Tim Ellis]

That's how they feel. A lot of them do. But. But I think that they also appreciate that we are always very. For, I think I would say authentic in the way we come across. We focus on things which we can all agree on, like from a, you know, uniting people. And like, for example, the big spot we ran in the super bowl this year was about mentoring and helping young people achieve success.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And I think it's hard to argue against that, particularly if you do it in a very powerful way. But I, you know, at the NFL, I just show how it's bringing in more, you know, younger people, more casual audiences, bringing in more women.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

More people of color is bringing them. So we are right now at the highest number of fans we've ever had in the history of the NFL. Okay. Perceptions, which, again, were really low when I came in at 2018. Now they're the highest in the. Ever in the league.

[Unknown Host]

What do you measure inside that? What are you looking for?

[Tim Ellis]

We're measuring how people value the brand. We're measuring how much, obviously, that they. They want to be fans, how interested they are in getting more involved and engaged with a brand, how interested they are in watching more.

[Unknown Host]

Sorry to, Sorry to interrupt. When, when you talk about getting more engaged, the brand, do you mean the brand or do you mean the product or both? Not that.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I mean, there's an inextricable link, and I just made it a binary choice. But what. What's it mean to want to get more engaged with the brand?

[Tim Ellis]

I mean, essentially the NFL. So, no, I, Let me, Let me say this. I. I see myself as sort of like leading the ambassador of football.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

Not just the NFL, but of football. Because ultimately, if someone is, you know, interested in participating and engaging and watching football, they will, most of them at least, will. Will engage and watch the NFL at some point in their lives. But, but when I, when I, When I talk about the brand, I'm talking about the NFL and the 32 teams.

[Unknown Host]

Right. Okay.

[Tim Ellis]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

And you're right. Our product is. Is football what you.

[Unknown Host]

As a league? I'm sure I don't mean wrestle necessarily, to be implicitly negative, but I'm sure. I'm sure there was at least a conversation where there was some consideration of alienating people. And I think across issues, across campaigns, opportunities, etc, there are a lot of CEOs who wrestle with doing New things, good things, the right thing for feel fear of alienating. So because of fear of alienating, which is real. Right. And the consequences can be significant if that, the commercial consequences if that alienation scales. But how do you, how do you overcome, what's your advice to the audience, the CEOs and CMOs alike, on how to kind of consider and evaluate risk of alienation versus benefit of acquisition and retention?

[Tim Ellis]

Again, I think you have to ground it in what you're trying to achieve. Does it, is it aligned with the values that you espouse as a company? And ultimately, is it helping you be better? I think, you know, diversity and inclusion is helping the NFL be better. And Roger Goodell has said that very clearly.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

It helps us bring in the right people. It strengthens our league. It strengthens the ranks of our coaches and of our players and of the people around the NFL who are sort of driving the league forward. And you know, I think when you, when you, when you're consistent with what you believe and you continue to do it and not react constantly, I think that's what I think is important. Because, you know, I always say brands are like people, right? When they act one way, one day, one way, the other, no one trusts you.

[Unknown Host]

The NFL is a private enterprise, Right. Even if some of the teams are publicly traded, you have the benefit of not being subject to the whims of the capital markets day in and day out. That would seem to me to be an advantage that facilitates the thinking long term, the way you have just been articulating it, right. What you're talking about is long term growth, long term viability. And, and I wonder if, having worked for publicly traded companies before quite a few, if you do think that that's an advantage and where, where you're thinking, actually more importantly than whether you think that's an advantage, how you balance as a marketer, as a business leader, the short and the long.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, listen, you can't forget about the short term because obviously you're paid to deliver on the short term as well. But I think that the, the brands that are the most successful constantly have their eye on how the short term.

[Unknown Host]

Is building for the long and how the long term, tomorrow's long term is next week's short term, Right. Does that make sense?

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. It does make sense. So. Because, I mean, I, I just told you, like the, the three acquisition targets we have, you know, young people, girls and women and Latinos, they are what's driving our growth. So when I talk about, you know, biggest fan base ever. It's because I have very clear evidence to show it. It's because of those three targets. They are the ones that are building our fan base. They also happen to be making the brand more interesting, right? Like, I mean, think about Latino culture, right? Like Bad Bunny and the, you know, so many incredible sort of artists out there and musicians who were really just changing the world with their, with, with, with who they are and with their art. And that's making our brand more interesting too. It's making it younger, it's making it cooler, it's making it less predictable and that, and that's great for everybody, right?

[Unknown Host]

So as we get towards time and it's gone, it's gone more quickly than I realized. Share a story if you would, before the league, maybe, you know, early, early in your career that that made you the marketer you are today. And then I want to ask you what advice you'd have for the CEOs, boards and CFOs who are listening and watching, who don't have marketing experience about how to give their CMOs, their marketing orgs, the permission to go fuck up, as we discussed before, so that they can succeed brilliantly because of that permission.

[Tim Ellis]

You know, I think, listen, when I, I always tell people that when I was at Goodbye Silverstein and Partners at that time, it was actually Goodby Berlin and Silverstein. Andy Berlin, yeah, was, was still there. I, you know, the way that we approached our work of like, really taking the time to understand the audience, like to get deep insights that we could then use to spark creativity, right? And everybody who worked for that agency was a part of it. Like, you know, you weren't there just to make a client happy. I was an account, you know, person. You weren't there just to make them happier, to sort of, you know, buy them a cup of coffee. You were there to help get to the right place and then to sort of obviously demonstrate and bring in the client. So they understood how that was all going to work and that also that they had a sense of accountability and pride in the final work. I mean, that they were fantastic and they still are. They're fantastic at crafting things, right? So not only did they take the time to really understand the audience and build an idea around true insight and something which really was powerful to people and they would like, immediately resonate with them, but they took the time to get the right artists and to craft the work to where everything we did felt like a big blockbuster film or something, right? The actors, the directors, the Execution, the editing, the color, everything.

[Unknown Host]

But I think, I think for, for the CEO and who, who doesn't understand marketing because they don't come from it. I think what that might do is reinforce the stereotype, the marketing is about the production rather than the outcome. Right. That it's the big Hollywood, you know, the marketers, the creative internally and that it like it doesn't get to the outcome, to the commercial benefit. And, and you know, when I, when we had a conversation with David Droger for this show, it was one of the things he said, right? Which is, you know, I asked him what is, what does he think CEOs think marketing is. He's like, you know, jazz hands and pretty pictures. Yeah, I believe that's what he said. And I wonder as a craftsman yourself, right. And you are very involved in the craft and the output of the creative product, how you then even before it's out in the world, how you think, how you evaluate good and say, yeah, this has like your Darth vader ad in 2011, which I will put in the show notes, why you think a piece of work is good, to say nothing of a collective body of work is going to drive commercial outcome.

[Tim Ellis]

Well, I'm, I'm going to answer that question, but I want to step back for a moment here because what you, what you said there in terms of like playing into the stereotypes of like, you know, willy nilly marketing people that all they care about is a nice ad. I will say this. It is incredibly important as a CMO to really have a very balanced program which in every way, ultimately in a very efficient, effective way, hits your audience with the right messages at the right time in the right place. Okay? I have built an absolute marketing machine at the NFL. And everything we're doing around data driven marketing, one to one marketing, everything we're doing around our social and influencer and creator program which just gets like exponentially insane views and coverage because of how we work and the partnerships that we have created are as important as any ad that we may put on a game or a Super bowl or whatever. So I want to say that because that's critical. And so, so how you go to market and how you build that machine is really important. I am sick and tired about hearing a CMO has to be a brand CMO or they have to be a data cmo. That's just bullshit.

[Unknown Host]

It's nonsense.

[Tim Ellis]

It's just bullshit. You know, you have to be able to do both now.

[Unknown Host]

So many false narratives.

[Tim Ellis]

Do I have as much experience as Some of the guys that work for Netflix and Google on data driven marketing? Of course not. I mean, I happen to work at Activision where it's pretty damn important, right? Like one to one, marketing was very important in terms of driving and monetizing your game year round. But I mean, sure, I came 12 years in as an agency person and I don't have as much experience as somebody from Google or Amazon or something. On the other hand, I surround myself with experts who really know this stuff and, and can bring it to life in the, in the most amazing ways. And I let them go. I point them in the right direction, I learn from them and so forth, but I let them go. I let them do their jobs. And then when it comes to every other aspect of our program, I ensure that it's balanced. We are slaves to the right KPIs to ensure that things are having the right impact. And I think when I have discussions with our CFO and with our CEO, who of course is the commissioner, I very carefully lay out, this is how it works. This is directly going to do this, this is indirectly going to do that. And this is how we are moving people towards the journey of the, the sale or to the desired effect where in our product people will engage.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Tim Ellis]

So I'm very careful to sort of lay those things out. I do the same thing with our committees of owners and with our total 32 owner group. I very carefully lay out this is how it's all going to work. This is why we're doing what we're doing. This is why it's so important to get certain things right. And when it. Now I'm going to come back to the crafting part and to the creative part. Like if you want to win people over, if you want to, you know, create something which will truly make them think differently about the league and make them want to spend more time with you. Not less, but more time with you. You have to connect with them on a human level and on an emotional level. And these are the kinds of things that we have done and need to continue to do which will fuel our success, if that makes sense. Right. So I can actually show them these are the things, the executions, and these are the campaigns. And these are the things. And this is, and this is how we're interpreting the results of that campaign which are driving, helping, driving our success. And if you don't get down to that level of like understanding the KPIs and then, and then really explaining how all those things come together to create success, right Then people are left to sort of like wonder like, well, why do we need to do these ads? Or why do we need to, you know, do all this stuff? It's costing too much money.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

If we need to save more money or we need to put more to the bottom line, let's just shave off more of the marketing budget.

[Unknown Host]

Always the first to go.

[Tim Ellis]

It is, it is always the first to go. And it's. And that seems. But it's the first to go.

[Unknown Host]

It's interesting because of course it's not always. It's usually. And, and that's, that's typically driven by those who see it as an expense and don't understand it as. And I can't remember who it was. So I will, I will be vague and not guess, but I remember during the beginning, at the beginning of the pandemic, when consumer spending started to understandably contract, there was a CPG company, as I recall, who rather than cutting marketing, doubled into marketing, kind of because they understood it to be the investment. They understood what people were looking for, hoping for and needing in that moment. And so is a last question and thank you for being with us. Appreciate it.

[Tim Ellis]

I really always enjoy speaking with you. So it's been great.

[Unknown Host]

What's your advice to the CEO CFO board who actually doesn't have that marketing experience on how to, how to be a better ally to a marketing organic cmo?

[Tim Ellis]

Take the time to really sit down and ask questions and listen and make your CMO prove out. Like, I wouldn't maybe not say it's prove out, but it's also explaining how it all works. The, the listen, the problem is, is that so much of, traditionally at least so much of the marketing which most people see.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

It seems relatively simple and they react. Right.

[Unknown Host]

That's part of the craft.

[Tim Ellis]

We're all, we're all consumers of marketing, advertising, marketing. So it seems relatively simple. But you know, we need to be better. First of all, I think we need to be better at marketing our own marketing.

[Unknown Host]

No doubt.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah, that's for sure. Because we just don't take the time to actually explain and to sort of allow people to understand what, what it is that we're doing.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's been a real through line.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah. And so, but I think that, you know, taking the time to actually sit down and go through it and not just like going through some sexy thing you did last week that you want to show, get five minutes and show the CEO the work, actually no, take, take. Carve out a significant amount of time to Go into depth on all the things that you were doing. I mean, if you were, you know, if, if you came in as an engineer on a new product or if you came in as a CFO on the, on, you know, a five year plan, you wouldn't do it in 10 minutes, right? You would take time. You would take the appropriate level of time to really get into it and to explain it and to sort of like, you know, be open and be vulnerable, like, show this is what's working. This wasn't working as well. So we made some decisions to change this and go, here, look how this is working here. But really explain what you're doing and why and be willing to show that, like, not everything worked exactly according to.

[Unknown Host]

Plan, as opposed to the rest of life, where it all goes. Exactly.

[Tim Ellis]

Yeah. It's really true. Like, you know, you don't have to. So many times I see marketing people, they go up and they sell, right? There is a difference between taking people through your work and showing them things than selling. Like, they're afraid to say that anything is not great. They're afraid to say, well, this actually grew because of this. Not just because my ad was great or my, my one to one program was amazing. This also helped, right? This we thought was going to happen this way, but it actually didn't happen quite that way. So we learned and we made some adjustments. There's nothing wrong with that.

[Unknown Host]

I mean, to the contrary. To the contrary. Yeah.

[Tim Ellis]

It earns you trust. And it's like, okay, I, I believe I trust this person. They're, they're, they're moving, constantly moving toward excellence. And by the way, the overall numbers look pretty good, right? And so like, let's, you know, so then you, what you want, of course, is you want your CEO or your cfo. Okay, what can I do to sort of help, right? Make this, make this go even stronger.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Tim Ellis]

And then that gives you the opportunity to sort of really share these things, share these things with your, with your executive team. And so I'd like, I, you know, I'm very fortunate right now, but I think I've earned that. Right? But I'm on the highest boards. Like, so I'm, I am a direct reporter of Commissioner Goodell and I'm on that board that we don't talk just about marketing. I contribute, I talk about the business. I mean, I, I'm open about everything and in the, and I invite my colleagues to be open about what I do.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Tim Ellis]

I want to hear what they think.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, you're not better if you don't.

[Tim Ellis]

That's right. Yeah. So I think that that's important. I think that when you're, when you're sitting on the sort of the highest level board of the company and you're talking about things which aren't necessarily about marketing, then you know you're a part of the business. You know that you're having impact and influence on how the business is run. And they see you differently. Right, Right. They just, they just see you differently.

[Unknown Host]

And the propensity to be a Monday morning marketer.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

You like what I did?

[Tim Ellis]

Take the time.

[Unknown Host]

By the way, I want some credit for that. Monday morning quarterback. Monday morning marketer. It's not bad. I've done worse for sure. Thanks, man. Really appreciate you being here. And love, love your point about the difference between explaining and selling, the difference between involving and pitching. Yeah. Because that's where understanding comes from. With that, we want to thank our listeners and our viewers. Appreciate you being with us. As always, hit the subscribe button. Give it all the stars you possibly can. We'll see you next time. Thanks.