The CEO’s Guide to Marketing — “The Science of Growth and Math of Differentiation”

Guest: Mark Kirkham, CMO of PepsiCo Beverages North America
Host: Seth Matlins, Managing Director, Forbes CMO Network
Recording Date: September 12, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode revolves around the central issue for modern marketers and the C-suite: How to differentiate products and brands in increasingly saturated markets—where “good enough” products abound, and cultural resonance is just as crucial as product function. Mark Kirkham, CMO at PepsiCo Beverages North America, brings candor and practical wisdom to tough questions about branding, product relevance, portfolio management across massive brands, and navigating a future where AI increasingly mediates consumer choice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Product vs. Experience: What Are We Really Selling?

• Main Idea: A product is more than its physical ingredients—what companies truly “sell” is the experience, emotion, or lifestyle their brand creates.
  • Mark Kirkham: “You make products that ultimately create experiences…What you sell is experience. It could be refreshment in the case of beverages, a lifestyle in clothing or jewelry. But you sell something that’s bigger than the product itself.” (00:23)
• The C-suite must maintain clarity between product features and the overarching brand experience. Differentiation happens at the intersection of functional benefits and cultural/emotional relevance. (02:02)

2. Crafting Differentiation in Mature Categories

• Markets like soft drinks seem saturated, yet differentiation is possible—and critical.
  • “The difference between Coke and Pepsi, Budweiser and Miller—it may seem like nuance, but the product’s role in moments has to be uniquely differentiated.” (02:02)
• Mark explains that for decades, Pepsi has leveraged the brand’s associations—in food, music, and sport—but real long-term value comes from connecting product roles to specific experiences (e.g., why Pepsi makes burgers taste better at a tailgate).

3. Product Role vs. Brand Role (and Finding Their Balance)

• The Product Role: Fulfills a category's basic consumer needs (taste, refreshment, energy).
• The Brand Role: Adds emotional resonance and cultural context—making a consumption moment memorable or meaningful.
  • “If we just kind of associate the brand in a moment, frankly that’s just sponsorship… All I do is sponsor a team or a league and I don’t bring the product benefit...then I’ve missed a huge opportunity.” (05:28)
• Magic happens when marketers overlap emotion and function—something many brands lose sight of.

4. Why Do Marketers Lose Balance? (Product vs Lifestyle Chasing)

• Many brands lose focus by chasing culture rather than rooting relevance in product benefits.
  • “I think we chase lifestyle too often… we feel that’s the job of marketing, to be in culture… [but] focusing on something simple as food… can be incredibly powerful and sexy if you do it right.” (08:06)

5. Brand as Service vs. Product (The Coke Example)

• Brands succeed when they think of themselves as providing a service or benefit—“in service to that uplift, that refreshment, that enhancement of the moment.”
  • Seth recounts advising Coke to stop selling itself as a product but as a service. Mark responds:
    • “Brand differentiation is critical, and you do that over time… But if you can’t root it in a product truth, then… that service or experience [won’t] differentiate itself.” (10:33)

6. Navigating Proliferating Categories and ‘Good Enough’ Products

• With an explosion of product variations, most differences are trivial to consumers; brand becomes the decision driver when products are “good enough.”
  • “The brand is ultimately the differentiator for the consumer… If we don’t have a clear understanding of our product differentiation, all that other stuff… gets lost in a sea of sameness.” (13:31)
• Mark flips the usual marketer’s logic:
  • Seth: “I tend to think about the brand elevating the product, but you’ve turned that inside out.”
  • Mark: “The brand has to be continually nourished… but if it’s built on a weak foundation… you’re just buying your way into someone’s lives and not actually anchor[ed] in their habits and rituals.” (14:31)

7. Brand Identity, Iconic Branding, and Self-Expression

• Wearing a brand (Pepsi/Gatorade/Coke) says as much about the wearer as the product/company.
  • “I actually want to have people wear the brand because it says something about them. It’s about their identity.” (18:50)
• Example: Mark wears a Gatorade shirt—a simple icon with complex, cultural meaning.

8. Managing Large Brand Portfolios: The “CITY” Acronym

• Analogy: Managing a portfolio is like building a city (C-I-T-Y):
  • Consumer — Who are they? What’s the benefit?
  • Ingredients — What’s included that makes consumers want to “live” there?
  • Trends — What’s changing that might create a gap or opportunity?
  • Your Brands — Can your brands deliver on these needs, or should you build/acquire new ones?
  • “If you map out your portfolio like you map out building a city, you look at it holistically…Get people out of the marketing head and into the business building head.” (21:41)

9. Strategic Risk, Failure, & Category Growth vs. Brand Growth

• PepsiCo is structured for calculated risk and experimentation by virtue of a vast portfolio; failures like “Crystal Pepsi” are learning opportunities.
  • “If you set the right objective, maybe the objective isn’t pass/fail… Maybe the objective is to change the mindset.” (26:00)
• Mark cautions: Don't try to make every brand a mega-brand; set specific objectives for different product roles and targets.

Category Growth vs. Brand Growth

• Fundamental to growth: Penetration—growing the entire category as well as individual brand reach.
  • “If we’re not building the category, whether we’re the number one leader or the number five player, we’re not going to grow. Penetration drives growth.” (31:23)
• Sometimes, focusing on category adoption (root beer as a flavor) precedes brand preference (Mug vs. others).
• De-averaging penetration is vital: Know which segments, demographics, or psychographics are truly driving your growth, rather than chasing ‘gen pop’ (the undifferentiated mass market). (35:14)

10. AI, Bots, and Marketing in the Coming Decades

• Will brand become more or less important as bots buy for consumers?
  • Mark: “We need to stop thinking of AI or bots… as the enemy… All the inputs to AI came from humans, from brands, from behaviors. It’s not about AI as output, but as input—as a collaborator or enabler.” (38:06)
  • “If an idea can’t land in a way that can be read in this world of bots and agents, then it’s probably not a good idea.” (42:41)
• Marketers must now research and “know their audience”—both human and non-human (bots/AI)—and ensure their messaging is discoverable and relevant in a digitally mediated world.
  • “If my team doesn’t think about how our work can be relevant to that new world, then we’re missing an opportunity.” (43:41)
• Fundamental marketing principles endure; only the “how” shifts.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Product vs. Brand:
  • “If we just sort of associate the brand in a moment…frankly, that’s just sponsorship… I want [consumers] to know Pepsi goes really well with their food while tailgating, waiting for the Commanders game.” —Mark (05:28)
• On Chasing Lifestyle:
  • “I think we chase lifestyle too often… The only reason [Pepsi] lasted the test of time… is because [we] were culturally relevant at different moments.” —Mark (08:11)
• On Portfolios:
  • “Think about building a city—CITY: Consumer, Ingredients, Trends, Your brands… Map your portfolio like a city.” —Mark (21:42)
• On Failure/Risk:
  • “A failure is actually a learning. I don’t think there’s actually such a thing as failure if you set the right objectives.” —Mark (26:00)
• On Category vs. Brand Growth:
  • “If we’re not building the category, we’re not going to grow. Penetration drives growth.” —Mark (31:23)
• On AI as Marketing Audience:
  • “If an idea can’t land in a way that can be read in this world of bots and agents, then it’s probably not a good idea.” —Mark (42:41)
  • “You have to know both—humans and bots. If we don’t make our marketing relevant for both, we’re missing out.” —Mark (43:41)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:23–02:02: Defining product vs. experience and the marketer's real job.
• 05:28–07:56: Difference between brand role & product role in a moment; balancing act in marketing.
• 08:06–09:03: Why marketers over-index on lifestyle, and how to regain focus on product relevance.
• 13:31–14:31: With good-enough products, the brand becomes the differentiator.
• 18:50–19:53: Brand identity, why people wear logos, and what it says about consumers.
• 21:41–23:28: Portfolio management, the CITY model, and business-building vs. marketing mindsets.
• 26:00–29:59: On failure, risk-taking, setting the right objectives/KPIs for new products.
• 31:23–35:14: Connection between category growth, brand growth, and penetration.
• 38:06–43:41: The future: AI, bots, and how brands will need to adjust tactics—not essence—for discoverability and resonance.
• 42:41: “If an idea can’t land in a way that can be read in this world of bots and agents, then it’s probably not a good idea.”

Tone & Language

Mark Kirkham and Seth Matlins keep the discussion candid, practical, and occasionally self-deprecating—mixing hard truths for the C-suite (“You’re just buying your way into someone’s lives...”) with entertaining analogies (SimCity, “smoking our own exhaust,” and playful jabs about T-shirts and Hollywood impressions).

This episode is essential listening for marketing leaders, CEOs, and CFOs grappling with how to drive true differentiation and growth—when “brand” and “product” must work hand in hand, and the next disruption is already here.