The one with Rare Beauty CMO Katie Welch on paying attention to attention, ensuring a lipstick is more than a lipstick, and the fine arts of getting someone to do something.

Summary

Summary of "The CEO’s Guide to Marketing" Episode: Rare Beauty CMO Katie Welch

Podcast Information:

• Title: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing
• Host/Author: Forbes
• Description: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing offers a no-nonsense take on the business of marketing and the marketing of business. Hosted by Seth Godin, this series provides a master class in raising the C-suite's marketing IQ through candid conversations with renowned marketers and executives.
• Episode: Rare Beauty CMO Katie Welch on paying attention to attention, ensuring a lipstick is more than a lipstick, and the fine arts of getting someone to do something.
• Release Date: July 9, 2025

Introduction

In this insightful episode of The CEO’s Guide to Marketing, host Seth Godin engages in a profound conversation with Katie Welch, the Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) of Rare Beauty. Drawing from her extensive experience in the beauty industry, Katie delves into the fundamental aspects of modern marketing, emphasizing empathy, the unpredictable nature of virality, and the delicate balance between short-term sales and long-term brand building. This discussion offers valuable lessons for CEOs and C-suite executives aiming to elevate their marketing strategies.

Empathy and Compassion in Marketing

Katie Welch opens the conversation by highlighting the paramount importance of empathy and compassion in marketing. She reflects on her journey, stating:

"If you don't have compassion and understanding and empathy for your consumer, marketing is never going to land." [00:33]

Katie emphasizes that understanding the nuances of consumer behavior, especially among younger generations, is crucial. She notes that as marketing platforms evolve, so does the need for genuine connection and understanding with the audience. This empathetic approach ensures that marketing messages resonate authentically, fostering deeper relationships with consumers.

Customer-Centricity and Organizational Challenges

Seth Godin brings up a McKinsey survey indicating that only 15% of CMOs believe they are customer-centric in their strategies, questioning the efficacy of the remaining 85%. Katie concurs, pointing out the fragmented ownership of customer experience across various executive roles:

"What are we doing if not for someone to do something ... you have to engage with them." [02:07]

She explains that without a unified approach, customer-centricity becomes diluted, making it challenging to maintain a holistic view of the consumer. Katie advocates for a more integrated strategy where marketing ownership aligns closely with understanding and addressing customer needs.

The Unpredictability of Virality

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the challenges of planning for viral content. Katie candidly admits:

"The hardest part ... you can't plan for virality ... create environments to potentially happen." [05:10]

She explains that while virality can exponentially boost brand visibility and sales, it remains inherently unpredictable. Katie shares her experiences at Rare Beauty, where viral moments often arise organically from the community and creator collaborations rather than premeditated strategies. This unpredictability necessitates a flexible and responsive marketing approach.

Balancing Short-Term Sales and Long-Term Brand Building

Katie addresses the tension between achieving immediate sales targets and investing in long-term brand equity:

"I have to build a brand for the long haul that's here to stand ... our one blush ... has raised $20 million for mental health in the last five years." [18:31]

She emphasizes the importance of aligning short-term marketing actions with the brand’s enduring mission to prevent commoditization. By integrating social impact initiatives, Rare Beauty not only differentiates its products but also fosters a loyal consumer base invested in the brand’s values.

Fostering Creativity and Team Culture

The conversation shifts to the significance of nurturing a creative and innovative team culture. Katie shares her strategies for encouraging creativity within her team:

"Explain what does creative look like ... everyone can be creative in their role." [25:09]

She believes that creativity should permeate all levels of the organization, not just confined to the design or creative departments. By rewarding innovative thinking and recognizing team achievements, Katie ensures high engagement and drives her team to excel in a competitive industry.

The Relationship Between Brand and Product

Katie and Seth explore the intricate relationship between brand and product, asserting that a strong brand can elevate even an average product, while a mediocre brand can undermine a great product:

"Brand gives the product dimension ... it is a promise kept." [42:57]

Katie underscores that consistency in brand messaging and maintaining the brand promise are essential for fostering deep consumer loyalty and ensuring that products stand out in a saturated market.

Communication and Internal Alignment in Large Organizations

Katie highlights the challenges of maintaining effective marketing strategies in large organizations with dispersed teams. She advocates for clear communication and strategic alignment across all departments:

"Educate your team on the social media strategy ... don't follow other brands blindly." [46:32]

By ensuring that all departments understand and support the marketing strategy, Rare Beauty maintains a unified brand voice and avoids inconsistencies that could dilute the brand’s impact.

Community and User-Generated Content

A key aspect of Rare Beauty’s marketing success is its emphasis on community and user-generated content. Katie explains how the brand leverages relationships with creators and consumers to foster authentic engagement:

"Our community department ... content can come from the community, can come from the creators." [07:48]

This approach not only amplifies the brand’s reach but also builds a loyal community that actively participates in and promotes the brand’s narrative.

Notable Quotes

• Empathy in Marketing:
  "If you don't have compassion and understanding and empathy for your consumer, marketing is never going to land."
  — Katie Welch [00:33]

• Customer Engagement:
  "What are we doing if not for someone to do something ... you have to engage with them."
  — Katie Welch [02:07]

• Virality Challenges:
  "The hardest part ... you can't plan for virality ... create environments to potentially happen."
  — Katie Welch [05:10]

• Balancing Goals:
  "I have to build a brand for the long haul that's here to stand ... our one blush ... has raised $20 million for mental health in the last five years."
  — Katie Welch [18:31]

• Brand Promise:
  "Brand gives the product dimension ... it is a promise kept."
  — Katie Welch [42:57]

Conclusions and Takeaways

Katie Welch’s insights offer a comprehensive framework for navigating the complexities of modern marketing. Key takeaways include:

• Empathy is Fundamental: Understanding and genuinely connecting with consumers fosters authentic relationships and effective marketing.
• Embrace Unpredictability: Accept that virality cannot be strategically engineered but can be facilitated through genuine community engagement.
• Balance Short-Term and Long-Term Goals: Align immediate sales strategies with enduring brand values to ensure sustainable success.
• Foster a Creative Culture: Encourage and reward creativity across all levels of the organization to maintain high engagement and innovation.
• Maintain Consistency in Branding: A strong, consistently kept brand promise enhances product perception and fosters deep consumer loyalty.
• Leverage Community and User-Generated Content: Building and nurturing a loyal community can amplify brand reach and create authentic engagement.

This episode underscores the evolving landscape of marketing and the critical skills and mindset required by CMOs to navigate it successfully. Katie Welch’s experience at Rare Beauty serves as a testament to the power of empathy, creativity, and strategic balance in building a resilient and impactful brand.

Transcript

[Seth Godin]

Foreign Katie. So I want you to act as the advisor you ultimately are, but not just for your company, not just at Rare beauty. Think about CEOs in the C suite everywhere in this whole wide world. What, what would you counsel them on? What would, what would you remind them that they may not know about marketing, that they fundamentally don't understand, but probably should? I mean, it's a big question.

[Katie Welch]

It's a big question. And as you asked it, so many things came to mind. And the first one, and I think perhaps it's. While it's unique to Rare Beauty, it's, it has shaped and informed my opinion overall how important empathy is and compassion in marketing speak and how much. I don't think I would have said that five years ago. I think as I've gotten to know the younger generations and as we've marketed to them, as I've understood the newest, newer platforms, as the platforms to market have continuously evolved, if you don't have compassion and understanding and empathy for your consumer, marketing is never going to land.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, I mean, to your point, you know, I was sitting with McKinsey yesterday who just is releasing their, their year two version of their CEO CMO survey and they said something like only 15% of CMOs think that they are customer centric in the development of their strategy. And I probed and I said, does that mean we should be firing 85% of CMOs? Because 100% of CMOs should be customer centric, to your point?

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

And actually it's because they don't have the access to the ownership of the customer because it's so buy and try and quad fercated within a chief customer officer, Chief marketing officer, Chief experience officer, Chief Revenue Officer. Nobody owns it. And therefore that customer centricity gets diluted across an organization. Right. And people see slices of it, but no holistic view.

[Katie Welch]

Well, what are we doing if not for someone to do something and that's that whether that's B2B, B2C. Um, but ultimately marketing is looking for someone to do some sort of action. And, and you can't just tell someone to do something anymore. You have to engage with them. You have to have that, build that relationship with anyone.

[Seth Godin]

Okay, so. So what? I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think what you said is so important. Right. The end result is an action, right. Which is purchase. Let's just call it purchase.

[Katie Welch]

Right.

[Seth Godin]

To get someone to purchase, you have to persuade and seduce even. Yes, Right. Inform, educate, inspire, lots of adjectives.

[Katie Welch]

All of the above. How do you it's I mean so thinking of the consumer category specifically, let alone beauty, it's so crowded and there's so many actions informing a person's decision. I mean I don't need to say to this audience that the funnel is gone. All kinds of, all kinds of, pardon my language, mom, all kinds of messed up. But yes, so, but even look at yourself. I say this to my team all the time. Look at how do you make a decision? And you think like we are the consumers we create. We in our as a human being do have an action every single day. What gets you to make that action? And when you realize it is a multitude of things, sometimes it is one person on TikTok who you just saw and they said, oh, this what have you is the best product out there, I'll go buy it. Sure. We all have, we all have clicked to buy on Amazon or Sephora, what have you. Or you take the time and research. So all of those things are informing, entertaining, like there's just no one answer. And so then back to the earlier. If you don't have that human connection, if you aren't sort of understanding that, understanding that someone is being bombarded with so many messages, understanding that you have to do product marketing and brand marketing, marketing, you have to speak to a product's point of difference while also your brand must stand for something because you don't know what's ultimately going to make that drive that action or make that drive that end result.

[Seth Godin]

Okay, so you've said so many things that are important. I want, I know I'll forget the latter one, but not the first one. So I'm going to start there. Which is so many. You don't always know often which thing is going to be the ultimate trigger for purchase. So how do you convince CEO? Yes, how. How do you help a CEO and a CFO who look for certainty about the uncertainty that just wraps around the human condition?

[Katie Welch]

Oh man. That is the million dollar question. And thankfully I have a team who's quite, who are quite understanding and very close to in our case specifically. So much is driven via, via social conversation and digital conversation. So we do look at earned media.

[Seth Godin]

But that's not unique to you at all, right? That's just 2025.

[Katie Welch]

The more someone talks about your brand, the more ultimately something will happen. An action will happen, a purchase will happen. I over communicate and I try to share and explain as much as possible to my team, to the cfo, to our CEO. This is what's happened this week. We look at it on A weekly basis because for that very reason we don't know. But what's been tough is that when we've seen the biggest spikes of conversation or the biggest spikes of sales, which is exciting, usually that's due to virality. And the hardest part, and every marketer knows this, you can't plan for virality. But man, that is difficult because I have people in my peers who will say to my team, go viral today. And they think it's funny. And I see my entire team either roll their eyes or you can see the stress like shoot up their back and like their shoulders raised to their ears. And is anything I can do to explain to my peers and my boss, okay, that's. We can't plan for that. Let's look at like, how do you then break down why something does go viral and how do you create those environments to potentially happen? But what's been really difficult is then how do you plan for that from an inventory perspective, from anniversary sales perspective, that that's difficult. And in beauty, it's more difficult and exciting than ever thanks to platforms like TikTok and Reels.

[Seth Godin]

Well, I mean, I used to shudder when I was on the agency side. And you get a brief, you know, we want to create a viral video. I was like, yeah, I want to be 6 4. Right. That's a consequence of something. It's not an objective.

[Katie Welch]

Well, what's been, what's been interesting in the beauty industry, specifically in all industries, I think when things used to go viral, I believe it was maybe more for talk value. And how exciting in the brand was really, it was brand awareness. But now these products go viral and they ended up because the funnel, I assume, has collapsed, the sales spike. And what else has been very interesting is thankfully we've developed a brand that people are loyal to, but because of this virality, it's. It's much more difficult to create loyalty, to drive loyalty, because the next thing will go viral and she'll buy that.

[Seth Godin]

Well, I'm wondering if you look at the last 10 instances that you guys went viral, okay, what, what number of them were because of something you did from a marketing perspective as opposed to something she, your customer or he, your customer did with the product. If just to take it down to least come, you know, they unboxed it, put it on and rave.

[Katie Welch]

Yes, right.

[Seth Godin]

Like, are you seeing, I mean, the quote unquote consumer is a part of our marketing organization, for better or worse?

[Katie Welch]

Oh, 100%. And I think that's why. Well, that's why we Have a. I have a huge community department. And that's another thing to explain to my, to my CEO and CEO, why CFO and CEO, excuse me, why it's so important because they are developing that one on one relationship with our community as well as with a huge creator department. Because those relationships matter. Because I know the content can come from the community, can come from the creators, which will go viral, thereby driving sales. But then also we also do all of our social content in house because we know the power of that. And I think the exciting thing about trying to create viral content in house and working with your team so closely is to say, okay, this is to answer your question of what went viral. When, when. Sometimes we will have viral content that we organically created. And what I love to see is when it goes viral for a product. Point of difference. So it's something that ultimately helps the product stick out within, within the marketplace. But it's. You don't realize it. You know, for the untrained eye. Oh, somehow that just told me that this is the most pigmented blush in the market and it's going to last for 12 hours. But it wasn't a typical ad. It wasn't like a P page video. That was just your basic features and benefits product. It was actually something that was funny and got people talking and went viral and had millions of views. But deep down you know, oh wait, that's. That blush is going to last all day long. So it's a, it's a mix. And we try to, we try to get all consumer video, you know, community videos creators as well as our own.

[Seth Godin]

I'm assuming that's a bit of a Venn diagram, right?

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

Creator, community, consumer in one. I still haven't forgotten the question I want to get back to. But you sparked something else that I think is interesting, which is the beauty category as a whole has obviously because of the nature of the products you sell and the brands you build as a category has done a spectacular job over and over and over again. In particular some of the smaller, more agile brands of. Immediately everybody talks about moving at the speed of culture. I kind of want to punch myself in the face when I hear it. Or them. Just kidding. Everybody but you all as a category move that way.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

What is, what do you think the beauty category understands about that? That maybe other even consumer facing categories do not.

[Katie Welch]

That's really interesting.

[Seth Godin]

Or what do you do that is different?

[Katie Welch]

I'm thinking because it's true. And thank you for saying that because I've often thought Gosh. What beauty does if other brands. I recognize that and it feels. I don't want to sound self serving, but it's collectively as an industry, we do. We move quick. I think we're great storytellers, I think, because. And listen, rare beauty products are really good, but it's tough to stand out. Is a lipstick a lipstick, a blush. A blush. Depends on who you ask. To me, I think they're all different and I can tell you how, but maybe others don't. So you have to become great at storytelling. And we.

[Seth Godin]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but lipsticks. A lipstick, a blush. A blush within degrees.

[Katie Welch]

Can't commoditize.

[Seth Godin]

Exactly. And that. That's not unique to beauty. Right. Across product and service categories. I don't care if you're selling a billion dollar consulting contract because maybe we're.

[Katie Welch]

More competitive and we know we got to figure it out fast.

[Seth Godin]

But. But I think the lesson. I mean, doesn't everybody, right. Have to figure it out fast? Because across categories, across industries around the world, there's just a whole lot of good enough products. I could pick consultancy A versus consultancy B. They're both good.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

Right. Agency A versus they're good.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

Deodorant A versus it's good.

[Katie Welch]

It's good enough.

[Seth Godin]

Actually. Deodorant's a category where you tend to switch.

[Katie Welch]

You got to find your one.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah. You don't want to become immune to one. Certainly not here.

[Seth Godin]

Certainly. Y.

[Katie Welch]

So I think. Okay. My. This is a tough one because I think part of it's very personal to what we do at Rare Beauty as well. Or what? Maybe it's more personal to me. I really pay attention to attention, myself included. And I noticed in 2019 that I was spending so much time on TikTok.

[Seth Godin]

I noticed in 2019, I. I should actually. Just give me two seconds. And now I want to. I want to just give our audience a quick bio.

[Katie Welch]

Who is she?

[Seth Godin]

Who is this woman I'm talking to? I've said Katie, but I haven't said Katie, who I am sitting today. And thank you for being here. Katie Welch, you have been the CMO at Rare Beauty since 2019, which is before it launched. And before that, you had. You were GM at the Honest Company, CMO at Hourglass Cosmetics, and amongst other things, EVP of global brands at Weber, Shandwich, Weber, Shandwick, not Sandwich. And so thanks for being with us. Okay, you were saying?

[Katie Welch]

Thank you. I'm so grateful to be here. Seth knows I'm his biggest fan.

[Seth Godin]

My mom Likes me.

[Katie Welch]

Oh, we love you. So I pay. And I believe others in beauty do the same. We really pay attention to attention. For instance, TikTok is an interesting example because I remember how much our attention was going to, but I didn't see it as, oh, it's just a dancing app. Oh, look at those people dancing. No, I.

[Seth Godin]

Was it TikTok in 2019 or was it still musically?

[Katie Welch]

Yes, it was TikTok in 19. Maybe towards the end, I don't remember. Maybe 18. It was still musically, but don't quote me, I certainly don't, I don't remember, but I remember peers saying, oh, it's just a music. Oh, people are just dancing. Well, I was fascinated by the creativity, even the creativity in the dancing and the creators and then watching how people were creating these films. But I knew, I knew this was going to be important for certainly for rare Beauty is Gen Z young millennial target. But I also knew that I didn't want to be the boss that was like, that's not right for our brand, or I don't understand it. So I really dove in and tried to understand the platform itself and started creating content myself. And not. Not dancing, God forbid. But I think that helped me learn, understand the platform, understand what went viral, understand why people were creating and understanding not just why people were creating. I was watching the communities form. And so I think when you pay as a marketer, when you pay attention to attention, where your attention is going, if you're curious and you care, you ask why. And it was the communities that were forming and how people were going viral and the creativity that was coming up on this platform. And then, then when you understand that sort of magic that's happening, then you have to look at, okay, what's our brand? How would this work? How do we do this authentically? And then, you know, because this brand, the way it is overthought content or like pre planned content, it's not gonna work. You have to. So you have to develop this agility, the speed of culture as much as ever. It's overstated. It's true.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, yeah, it is overstated because it's true. I love, I love the phrase pay attention to attention.

[Katie Welch]

And it's what's next. Now I'm nervous. What, where, I mean, sub stack. Sure.

[Seth Godin]

You guys created a substack, right?

[Katie Welch]

Yeah, we did.

[Seth Godin]

What I think is so interesting about that, kind of more conceptually than, than what you all are doing specifically, is, is it reminds audience, internal audiences that there's all kinds of ways to Connect with an audience and, and, you know, super interesting to see the written word.

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

Which is say, the expression of a brand point of view start to play a really interesting role in an increasing number. It's still small, but an increasing number of marketers mixes. But now I want to get back to that question you were talking about. How you'd tell your team, like, pay attention to how you make decisions, how you decide what to buy. I talk a lot about how the CEO and the CFO deny their own lived experience. Exactly. To your point. Right. How'd these shoes get on my feet? Bag in my hand. Car in my driveway. Why do you think they don't understand from their own experience as human beings how, at least more intuitively how human beings make decisions? Right.

[Katie Welch]

Intuition is more difficult.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

It's easier to have a formula. It's easier to have the data prove this is go left versus go right or what's right and wrong.

[Seth Godin]

But do you think the data proves that?

[Katie Welch]

I think data can inform.

[Seth Godin]

Exactly.

[Katie Welch]

It can inform. It can help. So that's my job or our job as marketers to then explain data informed. That helps me get through, get, get across the finish line. Sometimes, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I have to have a really compelling case.

[Seth Godin]

Yes. I mean, I think one of the. Bit of a digression, but I think one of the biggest challenges with data in the marketing industry, actually I should say in business, because marketing is a driver of business, or at least it's supposed to be, is that we've, we, we've, we've let data become a proxy for judgment. We've given away our judgment. Right. And like, oh, data's the answer. No, no, it's not the fucking answer. It informs a decision it doesn't make. It shouldn't make a decision. There's a. Also going back to what you were saying in the beginning, there's an interesting, I think, implicit perspective on the relationship between what I do today and what somebody's going as a marketer.

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

As a business. And what somebody, let's call them consumer, customer, might do. Not just tomorrow, the action, but a year from now. How do you think about, you know, short and long and the balance. And I hate, I hate the conversation about short and long because it forgets. There's also near right. We forget the middle. How do you think about time frames?

[Katie Welch]

I think that's one of the most difficult, actually, especially when speaking with our leadership team looking at weekly sales. People want results right away, but knowing we're in a unique position like knowing I have to, I have to build a brand for the long haul that's here to stand. And when we launched in 2020, there wasn't so much of this celebrity brand. At least when I, when I joined, when we were starting in 2019, there wasn't so much of a celebrity brand conversation. It certainly has evolved. My goodness, it's grown. So many have launched.

[Seth Godin]

For those who don't know, let, let our viewers know. Our listeners and viewers know who who the celebrity that is the founder, the.

[Katie Welch]

Founder and creator of Rare Beauty is Selena Gomez.

[Seth Godin]

And so I've heard of her.

[Katie Welch]

I was high. She's the most, she's a dream, the most heartfelt, wonderful person to work for and I feel lucky to bring her vision to life, truly. But when, when I first met her, even like the things that she talked about, I asked her why do you want to do this? Why do you want to create a beauty brand? And I need we, not just me, the marketing team, all of it, the company, we need to make sure that that continues to be, that message continues, continues to be delivered, lived, experienced. Because otherwise then you. If you think short term then we fall into the commoditization of beauty. Then we fall into the. Oh, that is just a blush, just a lip gloss, what have you. I mean this. Our one blush because we have 1% of sales that goes to the rare impact fund which we also started supports 30 grantees around the world in mental health. This one blush has raised $20 million for mental health in the last five years. This one blush supports over 400,000 young people. Help them grant access to mental health services. So like that helps your blush stand out as much as it also is going to last on your cheeks for 12 hours.

[Seth Godin]

So let's go.

[Katie Welch]

So I need to do both long term thinking, brand building as well as the short term driving sales because that's what sales finance wants to see.

[Seth Godin]

So putting Rare Beauty aside and even your own experience, of course every business needs to drive sales near term and build for the long term. Exactly for the reason you so so well said. Which is otherwise you're just commoditizing a lot of. Let's make it about the CFO for the minute. Not your CFO, but a cfo. They seem painting with a broad brush not to understand that at fucking all. Right, like show me the numbers and show them to me right now.

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

And long term be damned, you have a perspective on why that is not long term be damned. That's unfair. But I. They're not Concerned with the long term. They're concerned with this quarter.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah. Because they have quarterly goals to hit.

[Seth Godin]

Right, Right. But next year's quarterly goals will be harder to hit if we don't. If they're only on promotion this quarter.

[Katie Welch]

Oof.

[Seth Godin]

Right, right. Because while they do have quarterly goals, they don't understand they're going to have quarterly goals in perpetuity. Therefore, they need to be preparing a year at the quarter. A year from now. Today too. They don't get that. I don't think. Again, speaking generally, an audience, if you disagree, like, hit me up. I'd love examples of CFOs.

[Katie Welch]

Who do I think you're. I think you're right. And that is what makes this job so difficult. Truly. Like what is understanding both of those sort of timeframes. Because we have to live in both. Because I think we do understand the long term and the long term impact. The other thing that I think is tough on the CMO position or crucial for the CMO position is then how do you explain that and teach not only the rest of your company, but your entire team? Because everyone needs to understand that and sort of be on that same same page and working towards those things. So for instance, if you want, when we're so agile and we're responding to trends, I get sure, I understand why you respond to one trend because that's working right now in whatever platform, whatever medium, whatever industry. But is that good for the long term? And that's like the, that's what I worry about a lot also with my own team. Because sure, that's a cool thing to do right now and maybe that will go viral. But is that truly right for the brand?

[Seth Godin]

How. How. So let me ask a question which is because you move so quickly, somebody comes to you with an idea and in that moment you have to make a decision. Because if it is okay for now and then and you don't move, the moment's gone.

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

So do you have like, and it may be an intuitive methodology framework, kind of like how you balance your immediate evaluation of an idea to see if it's good for today and tomorrow?

[Katie Welch]

I. It's. Oh man, that's a great question. I. I'd like to say it's my gut and that I've honed my, my gut instinct over the last. I won't say the number of years.

[Seth Godin]

Fewer years than me, 26 years.

[Katie Welch]

And I also have people within the company and I've always, this is always the case with whom. Who's. Who's a point of view, I really trust. But recently I, my team has been coming to me with ideas that even I have to be like, okay, hold on, let walk me through this one more time. Like, it is moving so fast and sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong, I guess.

[Seth Godin]

Which is inevitable.

[Katie Welch]

It's inevitable. And you have to be a little fearless to do that. And it's tough. That's a tough quality. Not everyone has that.

[Seth Godin]

Well, by the way, you just gotta say that's why you were one of our entrepreneurial CMO 50s two years ago. Two years ago. Because of that fearless attitude. Because if you're not fearless, if you're not, if you aren't willing to fail, you will not innovate, you will not succeed in a market that's as complicated.

[Katie Welch]

It's complicated. You just have to try. And so I am grateful that I do have a CFO CEO team who let us do that. But I think it is because we spend so much time and we do explain and we explain the potential end result of why we can just try this. But I mean, my team. Oh, yeah, yeah. I won't even tell you some of the stuff they do. They got blushes in a dollhouse. I walk by their desk, what is this? They're like, it's going to be content. It's going to be great, great content.

[Seth Godin]

How do you. What would your advice be to I don't care to whom. Doesn't matter. Leaders which say I don't care to whom. I mean by title on how to build a culture even inside a massive organization, that incense and rewards, that entrepreneurial approach, that innovative approach rather than. That creative approach rather than stifles it. Because, you know, you and I know a lot of CMOs across a lot of categories and creativity is not rewarded. The org design does not facilitate it, it stifles it. Do you have a perspective, you know, both from your experience on the agency side looking at so many brands, but your experience in multiple client orgs?

[Katie Welch]

I think for the team working, I think creativity can be so rewarding. And creativity is. I always try to explain to the team that it's. It's not just I'm a good designer, it's not just I know what color to make this or I know what I can. It's. You don't be the creative director to be creative. And so I think first and foremost is explaining what does creative look like. Yeah, what is. And I think in each of your positions, from entry level to senior level, you can be creative in Your approach and certainly the way the world is changing so fast, like, how can you do this differently? How can you do this better? And I try to show how rewarding creativity can feel and how you can feel, how it can feel like you really have ownership in your position and your job. And it just, for me personally, especially as I look back at my career from the very beginning to now, it's if I have a creative idea and it comes to fruition and create. And again, I say that generally, man, it feels good. And so I think you want a team that is happy and engaged and rewarded and feel like they're contributing again, all that and sometimes, oftentimes that's creativity. And so the more that we can reward people for their creative thinking or creative approach, thinking differently, contributing from a creative point of view, and recognize that internally, that I felt has helped to fuel energy internally. And the CEO recognizes that. He sees when people are more engaged, when a team is more engaged, you just move faster. And I think that the leadership team, you hope they can feel that energy. And oftentimes that comes from creative. Look at what we did together as a team, that was different. My team loves to see when something gets. When we get recognized, certainly by Forbes or by another commentator on TikTok or Instagram that's talking about marketing. This woman, grad girl marketing came up to me. She has done a few posts about rare beauty. And I see when our teams get recognized, they love it. So it's. Anyway, I think that that is a positivity that fuels across the board.

[Seth Godin]

You know, I was, I was at a dinner last night and I was sitting with the head of comms for a enormous organization. And, and she, she made me see something that I hadn't seen. And so all credit to her, keeping her anonymous just because I don't have permission to give her attribution. But we were talking about kind of, you know, whether or not a mention about their business in People magazine or whatever media form. I was like, you know, the people who count impressions? I was like, it's a meaningless metric. And she points out, she's like, yeah, it may not impact sales directly, but what it does impact is how the organization feels about the brand. And she did use People because they were a People related brand at People magazine, that is. And she's like, and when somebody's mom sends them what they saw in People magazine about the brand, yeah, that feels amazing. Which reminded me, I thought her point was so well taken because one of the greatest impacts on sales is being able to recruit and retain talented human beings.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

Like the best of class. And that can come from things that might otherwise be perceived as vanity metrics.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah, no, it's. You know, I think I often think about our jobs and, you know, it gets. Gosh, it gets stressful. The days are long, it's not for the faint.

[Seth Godin]

And, you know, I think your job is the hardest job in business, the SEMA's job, harder than anyone's.

[Katie Welch]

It's. It is and it's. But when you. So I try sometimes to. We all do this, not to diminish it, but like, oh, it's just. It's not, you know, it's not, er. It's just lipstick. I always say it's, oh, it's just lipstick. But the other day I was thinking, you know, it's not just lipstick, it's impact, it's transformation, it's community, it's connection. Like, it's all these things. And so when you remind people that it's so much more than just hawking our wares, you know, trying to drive sales that, like, when we look at. When we do events and I see our community has become friends with one another, they've actually made friends because of our brand. Or my team has connected or grown or felt fulfilled. Not their fulfillment, but fulfilled by what they do every day. It is meaningful, it is powerful. So it's like, how can I, from the top down, make sure that. That pos. Not toxic positivity, but positive enthusiasm, you know, but also with a dose of reality. Like, yes, this is hard, but you know what? We're doing good stuff. We're making a difference. That helps. And when your mom does say, oh, I saw you on the Today show, well, it does feel good. And so I think the more that you almost have to do marketing internally as much as externally, and that ultimately then helps with the CEO and the CFO as well, because they want their teams to be with all. You don't want to work at a miserable place. You want people to feel fulfilled and come in.

[Seth Godin]

Which, of course is. Is a greater challenge when Your company has 500,000 employees. Right? And you're so divorced as. As so many of the yes. Companies in our audience do, right. They're in, if not 500,000, then tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. And, you know, I think about, you know, William White at Walmart, where they employ what, I don't know, two and a half, three million people. And, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's a Challenge of a whole different. As my grandmother would have said, bowl of borscht.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

I want to ask you a question again. Beyond beauty, but using your experience within it, where you're such, you know, you have such expertise and depth of experience. What, from your perspective, would you tell. Tell a tech company CEO, right, is the relationship between product and brand.

[Katie Welch]

I mean, they're integral. They're so important. Brand gives the product dimension. Otherwise, without it, the product could be forgettable.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. Yeah. I asked Jason Bunge, who, you know is the CMO at Hasbro when he was on this show, the same question I'm going to ask you, which is, you have to choose. It's a binary. Right. Binary choice here. Mediocre product. Great brand. Great product. Mediocre brand. Which do you think has more chance to be commercially viable?

[Katie Welch]

Long term or short term?

[Seth Godin]

Long term, let's build.

[Katie Welch]

Great brand. Great brand.

[Seth Godin]

Mediocre product. Right.

[Katie Welch]

But it's hard, man, though. But in this today, it's tough. It's tough to have. You have to have both.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

I mean, obviously. I mean, that's the obvious answer. But, yeah, great brand.

[Seth Godin]

And I think, you know, it's. It's fascinating to me when. When I, you know, talk to startup founders or. Or folks from Silicon Valley alley or wherever, like, if I make a great product, that's. I was like, that's Field of dreams, Jack.

[Katie Welch]

You know, Field of Dreams, Jack.

[Seth Godin]

And it's like, you make a great product and nobody knows about it. How they can.

[Katie Welch]

How are they going to find it?

[Seth Godin]

But. And then they say, yeah, but I'll put it in one person's hands and it'll spin. They'll love it and it'll spin out. I was like, well, that's marketing.

[Katie Welch]

No, well, I mean, I.

[Seth Godin]

Social proof.

[Katie Welch]

People say that, oh, you've got Selena Gomez. Doesn't she just need to post one Instagram and then you're good to go? You got the easiest job in the world. I mean, I love Selena and my goodness, we're so grateful for her community, but no, that's not the case.

[Seth Godin]

Do you think you could convince Selena to promote the book I wrote six years ago? Because I think that would give me a pop. I. I've been waiting for Seth Rogen to do it, but he hasn't done it yet.

[Katie Welch]

We'll do a massive influencer season.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, I mean, I can't. I. I digress. Okay. Okay. One of the things. I was listening to your conversation with John Evans on his wonderful uncensored CMO show second Best second.

[Katie Welch]

Oh, wait. You know, you're my favorite podcast and.

[Seth Godin]

There was something you said that I took a note to talk to you about this, which is. I think one of the things a lot of CEOs who are hiring CMOs do not understand is that there are multiple types of CMOs and that different types of CMOs are better suited to specific businesses than others.

[Katie Welch]

Okay.

[Seth Godin]

And I'm wondering what your perspective is.

[Katie Welch]

What did I say?

[Seth Godin]

I don't, I don't remember specifically. I wonder what your perspective is. You know, and maybe let's just start with beauty cmo. And it kind of ties to our question. My question earlier about, you know, what do other. What can other brands learn from how fast this category moves?

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

If we say, okay, what are the. What are the qualities of a brilliant CMO and beauty that maybe don't fit in a. I'm making an automotive category.

[Katie Welch]

Well, I don't. Me. I don't think that as I think through the answer. I don't think maybe there, there, there aren't much there. There shouldn't be any differences. I think, I think all, all marketers should be insatiably curious because the landscape is changing so much. My gosh. We can't assume, we cannot assume we know how to do what we're doing. If anyone says, oh, absolutely, I know the answer. You. How, how do you know? How do you know that is fundamentally is going to work now we can't show those, you know, we can't. You can only tell that to so many people. You have to gain people's, you know, trust and get the budget and say, but my goodness, with the best of my ability, I, I'm confident that this will succeed. But do I know 100. No. So you have to be so curious and pay attention to everything.

[Seth Godin]

Actually, I want to, I want to both push and pull a little bit on something you said because, you know, we can't assume we know what we're doing.

[Katie Welch]

We know the answer.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, because I think, I mean, I know what I'm doing, certainly, but I think that's important. I want to get back to that in two seconds, which is. I think what you mean is we can't assume we're going to know what works in a world that's changing so fast.

[Katie Welch]

Can we edit that so I don't know what I'm doing?

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, you know, I wanna, I want to stick with it, but yes, we can. If you're uncomfortable with where we go.

[Katie Welch]

No, it's, but it's, it's Fine.

[Seth Godin]

But you know what you're doing. You can't know what's going to work. What do you think? If you were to leave Beauty tomorrow and go to Automotive, what would you bring? That's like, yeah, I know what I'm doing. I may not have categories, I know what I'm doing.

[Katie Welch]

But there are fundamentals. A product is a product, a community is a community. But I think the importance of building community, the importance of understanding your target audience and what they need and what they want and having that empathy and compassion to market to them. Just because marketing has changed so much that it really is a conversation. And that's like, it doesn't sound that revel, you know, revolutionary to say, but it's true. You have to understand where people are coming from and put yourself in their, in their shoes to, to be able to market to them. And I think Beauty does do that very well. And because we listen and we learn and we pay attention and we get to know them because honestly, so much of our teams, our consumers, ourselves, gets back to the answer sort of right in front of you. So having that empathy, that compassion, but then that curiosity to pay attention to, not only the attention, paying attention to attention, but what's driving purchase, what's driving action. You can never rest on your laurels and just assume, yeah, that's the, that's the biggest. And man, that is something I would never do, I have never done because I get excited by the changing world around me. And so I think the fact that I know that we don't ultimately know it's going to work, that's what makes our jobs exciting. And I think you could bring that sort of passion and curiosity to any industry. And then you have to have a brain. You have the critical thing. Just have the ability to think critically and not assume.

[Seth Godin]

Is there a. I don't know how to phrase this. What I was about to say and it's wrong is, is there a point where you have to stop being curious and what I actually like and go pencils down? And pencils down.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah, of course.

[Seth Godin]

Like how. Right. In a world where you have to be doing. And there if it's on the front page of Forbes, it's relevant to marketing. Right. Whether it's global affairs, politics, lifestyle. It's relevant to marketing because it's where paying attention to attention.

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

Those stories are where attention is going. And where attention goes influences behavior for better or worse. I've completely forgotten my question. What was I asking? Did anybody pay attention to me? Because I didn't oh, yeah.

[Katie Welch]

Pencils down, pencils down. Yes, yes, yes. How do you decide? Because you could, you could think things to the end of time and. Right. Well, that makes me crazy as well. You got to go, you got to do stuff.

[Seth Godin]

Every great cmo, every great strategist requires sacrifice.

[Katie Welch]

Sure.

[Seth Godin]

How do you deal with deciding what not to do?

[Katie Welch]

It's back to understanding what your brand stands for, what your product is trying to communicate, and is it doing the best it can. And then you do. You just have to have a gut and say, all right, we're good, let's go, let's go. And that is. I do have that conversation sometimes. It's my creative team who I have the utmost respect and love for, but I'm like, you gotta go. Pencils down. We have looked at this enough and I think sometimes we run in. We have a very collaborative team, which I'm sure a lot of companies do. And there's a lot of points of view start to weigh in. And when so many points of view start to weigh in, because everyone has that equal curiosity and excitement, it can sometimes weigh down or water down an idea. And then it suddenly doesn't become as relevant from a timely stance. It just becomes more universally relevant.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

And so I think it's up to the CMO to be able to say, okay, we're good, let's go.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

And that's. I try to do that.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. It's really hard, I think when people.

[Katie Welch]

Say, oh God, Katie, like, I'm very warm and nice. Hopefully my team would think so. But when it's time to get serious, it's like, okay, yeah, let's do this.

[Seth Godin]

It's. You know, I'm reminded when you talked about everybody having an opinion that so often. I mean, that's why we started the show. Right. Which is a lot of CEOs and CFOs have opinions about marketing, but they're grounded in nothing.

[Katie Welch]

Or my daughter said we should do that.

[Seth Godin]

Exactly. My 12 year old daughter didn't like the ad. Well, that's cool, but we're going after 44 year old men.

[Katie Welch]

But then also sometimes when I do get those comments, I have to say I, I do take a pause and they think, okay, hold on, why? Or if someone doesn't understand something, because I think we are so close to everything that I do value. Where other members of my teams perhaps will, or even anywhere will say, oh, I'm not gonna listen to that. It's like, whoa, hold on. That could be representative of our community or the General population. Like, let's stop and actually.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. Because we, while we analyze in every frame metaphorically.

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

They just see the whole and they're not really paying attention to it. It's just.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah. Sometimes those one off comments are actually quite important.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah, I agree. All right, we're kind of getting towards the end here and I want to ask you, and thank you again for being with me, I am so grateful. I want to ask you kind of a series of questions. Quick questions, quick answers. All right, you ready?

[Katie Welch]

Okay.

[Seth Godin]

Marketing is.

[Katie Welch]

A conversation.

[Seth Godin]

I really love that. But when you said it before, is it a. Do you think it's a conversation for every category? I mean, is that.

[Katie Welch]

It depends if you want to engage with your audience and a community.

[Seth Godin]

I mean it's certainly a conversation in B2B.

[Katie Welch]

It is a conversation in beauty.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

Because you can't, you can inform, you can educate your consumer, but my gosh, you don't have the final say. Like they could come back and say, I don't like this, I prefer this. Or you need to change this. And we listen.

[Seth Godin]

But what about categories where detergent. Right. Where the product isn't changing with frequency. They're not introducing new SKUs with the rapidity and frequency that you all are. Is it a conversation for.

[Katie Welch]

But why couldn't it be? Why couldn't it be? Because I think the people doing laundry, I mean some love it, myself included. I love laundry. Like, I don't know, vacuum. I do too.

[Seth Godin]

I was just trading text with the CMO of Electrolux and I told him he makes my favorite vacuum.

[Katie Welch]

I love it so much. I love our jobs. It's fun to be able to do so. Yeah. Well, why couldn't it be? And I think if you think about TIDE through the lens of how do you speak directly with your community and vice versa here. And like that could inform even better marketing strategies. So why can't it be? Why do we have to think that we are these behemoth companies that push out messages?

[Seth Godin]

I mean I.

[Katie Welch]

It's not the way, it's not the.

[Seth Godin]

Way the world is going to my perspective a little bit. Not only why couldn't it be, but shouldn't it be?

[Katie Welch]

Sure, yeah.

[Seth Godin]

And you know what popped into my head was have you seen the Empire State Buildings? TikTok?

[Katie Welch]

Yes, of course.

[Seth Godin]

It's so phenomenal. And I'm like, if you can humanize an edifice.

[Katie Welch]

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And the thing is it's not just gen Z on TikTok everyone is consuming media. That way is everyone's consuming.

[Seth Godin]

I tend to think of myself as Gen X with a Gen Z mindset.

[Katie Welch]

I am right there with you. I'm the same.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

100%.

[Seth Godin]

You're 1. Gen X. I am Gen X, Yeah. All right, So a brand is.

[Katie Welch]

A promise, but a promise kept consistently. Because you can't go back, you can't waiver in that brand promise. That will water it down and then you will lose. You will lose that connection and your marketing will become more difficult. Because if you, if you break that brand promise and you're trying to have this marketing as a conversation, why would they listen to you? Why would they talk back?

[Seth Godin]

You are the second cmo and in my life.

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

To like, a lot of people, not just CMOs, a brand is a promise. When William White, CMO at Walmart was on the show, he said a brand is a promise kept. And you're the second one to say it. And I think that third word is everything. Because a brand isn't a promise. It is a promise kept. Because if it's a promise unkept, it's an empty promise and then it's a shitty brand.

[Katie Welch]

Right, right.

[Seth Godin]

Such an important.

[Katie Welch]

Honestly, it's consistently. When you think about consistently, not in its frequency, but also consistently across all audiences, all people with whom your brand engages, your employees, all stakeholders, employees, creators, community, customers, retailers, whomever. You truly do have to live and breathe it. Because I think the marketing then born out of that consistent brand is so much better. And I'm going to sound so Midwestern saying this, but I'm proudly from St. Louis, but it's like cookies, when they're baked with love, they just taste better.

[Seth Godin]

I kind of like mass produced cookies, but I'm sure somebody loved it.

[Katie Welch]

Chips ahoy. Call us later.

[Seth Godin]

All right. The hardest part of being.

[Katie Welch]

We love Oreos too.

[Seth Godin]

I do, I do.

[Katie Welch]

I know, I know. Okay, well, you know what I'm saying.

[Seth Godin]

Yes, I do. Yes.

[Katie Welch]

We just love. I love everything.

[Seth Godin]

The hardest part of being a cmo.

[Katie Welch]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Seth Godin]

That could be the answer right there.

[Katie Welch]

Oh, gosh. The hardest part of being a cmo. I mean, there's the. There's the easy answer and that's. The world is changing, the landscape is changing. How do we know where we never know what's going to work. I think the hardest part about being a CMO is educating, engaging with your team and making sure that everyone feels, not just your direct marketing team, but then cross functionally as well.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah. Because if it's Just the direct marketing team. That's the hardest part of being a leader.

[Katie Welch]

That's the hardest part of being a leader.

[Seth Godin]

But as a cmo.

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

You got to think horizontally.

[Katie Welch]

Yes. And that is not easy.

[Seth Godin]

No.

[Katie Welch]

Because I think also, especially if you're a brand that does play so much in social media and that becomes sort of your biggest marketing driver, everyone thinks that they have an Instagram account and I don't, I don't mean to be, I don't mean to insult anyone, but they also think they too can do your job.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

And so I do take the time to educate that this is our social media strategy. Let me walk you through sort of our strategic roadmap and how we came to this and that and that you can't just have tactic soup of we're going to do a bunch of things or hey, or the other thing is I try to educate on how do we not follow other brands in our industry if we, if we continue to look over our shoulder and oh, they did this, they did that. Why aren't we doing this, Katie? Why aren't we doing that? Whoa. That's what gets difficult. Because then you become not a brand promise consistently kept. Then you just become doing the next best thing.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

I mean, and I think that's exciting to people but it doesn't always mean that it's right for the brand. And so that really that cross functional and then team education and making sure everyone feels engaged and rewarded is tough.

[Seth Godin]

Yeah.

[Katie Welch]

And, and, but, but also one of the things that I like the most.

[Seth Godin]

I mean managing humans at any side organ, any sized organization is as hard as selling to and convincing humans.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah. And I do believe that great ideas come, come from everywhere. And so I respect people's ideas and wanting to. Excuse me, I respect their ideas and I want everyone to participate in marketing. Truly, I love it. Everyone can be a part of the marketing organization and our brainstorming that happens.

[Seth Godin]

Which is say anything that you know, Scott, your CEO says or, and certainly Selena says, but also your customer reps or anybody in a physical store says is having some effect on whether somebody does or doesn't buy now or later.

[Katie Welch]

Usually people's opinion, their opinion comes from their own human experience and we are marketing to humans and we forget that. So I have, you have to take into into consideration people's own human experience to inform your marketing strategy because that is who we are marketing to.

[Seth Godin]

Brian Morrissey a few years ago said something that I have quoted over and over again, which is it goes to the beginning of our conversation. I don't even know if we were on camera yet. We were talking about data and how we've given up judgment to data. And Brian said something very close to the effect of human beings have become an aggregation of data points to be sliced and diced in the hopes of capturing attention. And his point. Right. Which is we see the data point, we don't see the human being. I think you've heard me use the metaphor of modern medicine, which has become so specialized. You know, people treat the condition and the circumstance and nobody sees the patient.

[Katie Welch]

No, but you could say that for any industry almost.

[Seth Godin]

I think you can. And I think as marketers, it's. It's one of our biggest challenges.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah. That's what. And I know, and you can cut this, but I know we're supposed to talk broadly, not just about rare beauty, but I will say one thing, that when I first met Selena and I said. And I was inter. Was I interviewing. It was early, early, early 2019. And I said, why? Why do you want to do this? Why do you want to create a beauty brand? And I knew her rationale and how she had felt bad, the media had made her feel bad about the way she looked, and she wanted to break down standards of perfection within beauty industry and all that. But then she said something to me that really struck me, and she said, I want to create a place where people feel welcome. And that word, welcome. And working in the beauty industry for 25 plus years, I thought there's a lot of wonderful things in beauty. But they've never said that. I've never felt welcome. Inclusive, yes. Thank God. Self expression. Yes. Empowerment? Yes. Wonderful things. But welcome, like, truly, come sit with us. Not really. So that was special. And so that when she said that, I knew, okay, there's really cool things that we can do with that. To the marketing, to humans, making people.

[Seth Godin]

Feel welcome is a good brief.

[Katie Welch]

Yeah.

[Seth Godin]

And everything follows from that.

[Katie Welch]

Yes.

[Seth Godin]

Katie Welch, thank you so much for being here.

[Katie Welch]

Seth, I am so grateful. Thank you.

[Seth Godin]

I appreciate it. Hey, everybody. Thank you for listening to Forbes, the CEO's guide to marketing. Smash that subscribe button. Give it six or seven stars, even if it only goes up to five. And because I listen to John's podcast, I know now to ask for your reviews because they make a big difference in helping others who might benefit from it. Benefit from it. See ya.