The CEO’s Guide to Marketing

Episode: The one with ServiceNow CMO Colin Fleming
Date: August 27, 2025
Host: Seth Matlins (Forbes CMO Network)
Guest: Colin Fleming (CMO, ServiceNow)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Seth Matlins sits down with ServiceNow CMO Colin Fleming to explore seismic shifts in marketing strategy at a high-growth B2B tech giant. They dive into why ServiceNow moved from a product-led to a brand-led strategy, how B2B and B2C can learn from each other, the perils of “more and faster,” and the business case for doing less—but doing it exceptionally. Fleming shares practical lessons about organizational change, the evolving buying journey, the importance of trust, and why brand is the last durable differentiator in a world reshaped by AI.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Product-Led to Brand-Led: Why the Shift Matters

• Context: Fleming joined ServiceNow and quickly pivoted strategy to focus on brand storytelling over strict product marketing.
  • “We had a world-class one-of-one product that was beloved by IT departments around the world. But it didn’t add up to a big enough story and so there wasn’t enough emotion around it. We needed to shift to tell that bigger story… especially in a time where all software companies are chasing the same AI dream.” — Colin Fleming [00:26]
• Many CEOs/boards still undervalue brand versus easy-to-measure product/task metrics.
  • “The brand is often the most valuable asset that they own in many cases, if not all. And so why would you not treat that with the same tender love and care that you might with your flagship product or your cash cow?” — Fleming [01:49]
• CMO’s role is to “educate” the C-suite on long-term value creation, not just short-term wins.

2. Educating the C-suite (Especially CFOs) on Brand Value

• Many top executives lack shared understanding of brand’s impact; it’s a CMO’s job to inform and advocate.
  • “Never have I walked into a CFO and just started from day one with a common understanding of what the value of a brand is. It is our job to talk about long term valuation and differentiating assets.” — Fleming [03:29]
• Tension: Companies can grow rapidly yet risk “strategic misses” by failing to articulate what they do or stand for.
  • “We’re growing 30, 40% year on year. But it’s not adding up to enough. It’s not building a long enough moat, it’s not building enough pricing power.” — Fleming [05:08]

3. Short-term vs. Long-term: Orchestration, Not Just Balance

• Marketers must invest in both immediate results and slow-moving, strategic brand building.
  • “Trust with the board or trust with the C suite is really job number one for CMO because there is so much art and science contained within it.” — Fleming [07:56]

4. Metrics that Matter: Quality over Quantity

• Fleming famously cut lead generation by 50% in his first year, shifting focus to quality leads and conversions.
  • “We moved the idea of a lead... from an outcome to simply a signal. I...dropped lead generation by about 50%...But we sort of knew that if we went for quality over quantity, we would see conversions up, we would see trajectory go more strongly and things like this. And thankfully all those things came true.” — Fleming [09:58]
• Stat: “Roughly 90% of the time, the first brand that comes to somebody’s mind is the one they end up purchasing.” — Fleming, quoting HBR [10:59]

5. The Death of the Funnel: Buying is Nonlinear

• The buyer’s journey, especially in B2B, is not a funnel but a loop involving “hidden and obvious buyers” and up to “20 or 30 people.”
  • “It is loops, it is not a funnel because you’re dealing with hidden buyers, obvious buyers. There’s a myriad of determinations.” — Fleming [12:31]
  • Instead, ServiceNow moved to a “buying group orientation.”

6. What B2B Can Learn from B2C—And Vice Versa

• B2B marketers excel at operational rigor, but lag in creativity and cultural impact.
  • “The best B2B companies are able to measure and optimize and build scalable, repeatable revenue systems better than B2C has...But comparatively, B2C marketers run circles around B2B when it comes to creativity and culture, the ability to shape culture and provocation.” — Fleming [16:17]
• His career “mission”: Reverse that, so B2B gets its fair share of creative, provocative, personality-filled marketing.

7. The Danger of Obsessing Over Attribution & Activity

• B2B’s craving for measurability led to “gate forms in front of every asset, PDF data sheets” and a focus on what’s easy to prove, not what drives buying.
  • “A B2B marketer’s desire for credit... almost dictates an outcome that is not aligned with how people actually buy products and services.” — Fleming [18:19]
• Avoid “activity over achievement,” focus on impact.

8. Doing Less, Exceptionally: Project Marie Kondo

• ServiceNow deliberately cut content by 50%, vendors by 63%, and campaigns from 200 to 6, prioritizing quality over quantity.
  • “We created this project inside the organization...Project Marie Kondo, where we just simply asked ourselves, what if we were to just take a step back and declutter and focus and measure the outcome instead of the input?” — Fleming [21:58]
  • Engagement rose by 66%, employee satisfaction increased.
• Time saved was spent on differentiation, technology, and strategic focus.
  • “We can take that extra bit and make this a little bit better of an asset, or write that brief a little bit more strongly, or do anything that is worth doing and take some time to invent new ideas.” — Fleming [24:20]

9. Accountability & Defensible Differentiation

• Every piece of work must answer “Why us?” and be unique to ServiceNow.
  • “If we can put any other logo on anything we produce, it’s wrong...differentiation and uniqueness and clarity of thought has to be pervasive.” — Fleming [27:09]
• Junior team members are empowered to contribute, fostering positive, self-critical culture.

10. Leading With the Company’s DNA

• Find and amplify the brand’s true DNA—don’t import culture, surface it.
  • ServiceNow’s “helper” mentality inspired by its founding story of “Phyllis”—always focus on making customers’ lives easier.
  • “Our job is not to bring a culture or a DNA to the organization. It is to find that intrinsic DNA within the organization and extrapolate it from there.” — Fleming [29:34]

11. Inspiration from Unlikely Sources

• Examples include Marie Kondo and Mr. Rogers—simplify, declutter, and be helpful.
  • “Every brand and every business is ultimately in the quality of life business, which is you’re making somebody’s life easier on some metric.” — Matlins [31:19]

12. Lessons from Racing: Finding the Last 1%

• Fleming’s background as a race car driver taught him the importance of grit, focus, and incremental gains.
  • “Anytime you compete on the world stage, you are quite adept at finding that last 1% of 1% to find ways to differentiate or stand apart or outperform.” — Fleming [32:59]

13. Risk-Taking and Reinvention

• Even rapid growth (30%+ per year) shouldn’t preclude reinvention; strategic risk is essential.
  • “You’ve got to reinvent yourself as a company over and over and over again. Microsoft is a different Microsoft, it was. Apple’s a different Apple. Nvidia is a different Nvidia... So even the best and brightest companies in the world have to continuously find ways.” — Fleming [36:27]

14. AI & the Future of Brand and Trust

• AI will automate the mundane, but brand remains the final differentiator.
  • “When AI does the work, brand is the work.” — Fleming, quoting Vineet Mehra [39:01]
  • Efficiency gains from AI level the field, making brand and trust even more vital.
  • “It’s created more of an emphasis on the things that still make the great companies great... automate the things that are mundane... pointing it towards things that drive highly differentiated brands.” — Fleming [39:01–40:36]
• Fleming is bullish on brand’s endurance even as marketing evolves.

15. Building Trust in a Fractured World

• Trust is especially critical in B2B, where decisions can make or break careers.
  • “Literally, as our content strategy has always been, be helpful, that is the whole documented content strategy.” — Fleming [43:22]
• Example: 1974 IBM ad—“Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM”—trust as risk mitigation.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Whoever that CFO is, remind me never to work for them.” — Colin Fleming [03:22]
• “We did less work at higher quality, and we increased engagement by something, 66% or something to this effect.” — Fleming [21:58]
• “If we can put any other logo on anything we produce, it’s wrong.” — Fleming [27:09]
• “Our job is not to create or bring a culture or a DNA to the organization. It is to find that intrinsic DNA within the organization and extrapolate it from there.” — Fleming [29:34]
• “Every brand and every business is ultimately in the quality of life business, which is you’re making somebody’s life easier on some metric. Right. And, and you know, if you’re not helpful, you’re just taking up space and time.” — Matlins [31:19]
• “When AI does the work, brand is the work.” — Fleming referencing Vineet Mehra [39:01]
• “If we have large organizations that are trusting of ServiceNow or any brand that we’re representing, that’s better than any great advertisement or great data sheet you might produce ever, right?” — Fleming [44:43]

Important Timestamps

• 00:26–01:14: Fleming explains his move from product-led to brand-led at ServiceNow
• 03:29: Educating the C-suite about the true value of brand
• 09:58: Why and how he cut lead gen by 50%; focus on “quality over quantity”
• 12:31: The funnel is dead; buying is a loop, not a linear path
• 16:17: What B2B and B2C can learn from each other
• 21:58: “Project Marie Kondo”—cutting content, campaigns, and vendors to do less, exceptionally
• 24:20: Impact of decluttering: quality, focus, and more creative bandwidth
• 27:09: Differentiation test: “If you can put any other logo on it, it’s wrong”
• 32:59: Race car driver lessons: find that extra “1% of 1%”
• 39:01: AI and its implications for brand (”when AI does the work, brand is the work”)
• 43:22: Building trust when trust in institutions is at an all-time low

Tone & Takeaways

This conversation blends candor, practical wisdom, and optimism—rooted in Fleming’s personal journey and ServiceNow’s transformation. The hosts don’t shy away from uncomfortable truths: resistance to brand, measurement myopia, or the pressure to do more. Instead, they propose ruthless prioritization, radical focus, and cultivating trust as both a personal and organizational asset.

For CEOs and other leaders: Investing in brand is not a soft ambition but a strategic, measurable asset. In an AI-driven, noisy world, stand for something real. If you can’t answer “Why us?”—and answer it in a way that only your brand can—go back to the drawing board.

For marketers: Less is more, if what remains is exceptional, differentiated, and aligned with who you really are as a company. Trust is the currency; brand is the vessel. AI will change how you work, but not why the work matters.