Episode Overview

Podcast: The CEO’s Guide to Marketing
Host: Seth Matlins, Forbes
Guest: Micky Onvural, Chief Marketing and Communications Officer, TIAA
Date: September 5, 2025
Episode Theme:
This episode dives into the professional journey of Micky Onvural, exploring the lessons learned moving from CMO to CEO at Bonobos, and then returning to a CMO role at TIAA. The conversation unpacks how these leadership transitions informed her approach to marketing, culture, business outcomes, and collaboration in the C-suite. Rich with actionable insights, the dialogue spotlights the evolving role of marketing as a business driver and teaching function within organizations.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Lessons from Transitioning Between CMO and CEO Roles

• Carrying Marketing Mindset to CEO Role:
  • Micky emphasized that her background as a CMO gave her deep understanding of the customer, brand value proposition, and the interplay between customer experience and organizational culture.
  • Quote: “What I brought with me was this sort of innate understanding of our customer, our value proposition, and also ... what it would take to continue to build that over time through the culture and through every single thing that we did.” (00:30, Micky)
• Defining the CEO Job:
  • She noted the lack of a CEO “job description”, requiring her to articulate her own sense of CEO priorities—customer, experience, and culture.
  • Quote: “No one gives you a job description. No one says, here's the roadmap for being a CEO.” (01:47, Micky)
• Business Outcome Focus:
  • CEO experience taught her to root all activity in concrete business outcomes, strengthening her rigor as a CMO upon returning to the role at TIAA.
  • Quote: “Everything ... has to be rooted in business outcomes. ... That experience of being a CEO really brought that rigor to my thinking.” (03:03, Micky)

2. The Centrality of Culture in Business Success

• Culture as Strategy Core:
  • Micky argued culture is too often overlooked in strategy discussions, yet is foundational to business outcomes.
  • Quote: “People don’t put [internal] culture at the center of strategy and business outcomes often enough.” (03:03, Micky)
• Codifying Culture:
  • She defines culture as “the way we do things around here,” shaped by language, rituals, and organizational cadence.
  • Quote: “Culture has to be embedded in everything from the language that you use. ... The rituals that you have in an organization and the cadences you have in an organization.” (04:46, Micky)
• Example: ‘Learn and Adjust’ Ritual:
  • TIAA's quarterly business review is reframed as a “Learn and Adjust” session, promoting open discussion of failures and iterative learning.
  • Quote: “The whole thesis is we're looking back at the prior quarter to say what did we learn? Not what was brilliant and ... what did we fail at, what did we learn and how are we going to iterate as a result.” (05:46, Micky)

3. Value Creation and The Role of Marketing

• Unique Contribution of Marketing:
  • Marketing cannot do everything—its impact is determined by the unique business challenge at hand. For example, in wealth management, marketing’s job is driving brand distinction and differentiation.
  • Quote: “What is the role that marketing can uniquely serve within that given business at that moment in time?” (08:07, Micky)
• Adopting Rigor and Agility:
  • The team uses clear KPIs, measured regularly, and adopts language like “go to green” and “embrace the red,” signifying continuous improvement and action plans for underperforming metrics.
  • Quote: “My team is resolute on this idea of 'go to green.' ... We think about embrace the red. So let's learn. And what do we learn from the red?” (09:54, Micky)

4. Brand Distinction: Measurement and Business Case

• Driving Growth with Brand:
  • The core business outcome expected from brand work is growth—most tangibly through acquisition and expansion into new customer segments.
  • Quote: “The answer in one word is growth. In terms of what a CEO can expect, that is what they should expect.” (11:46, Micky)
• The FIRMU Framework:
  • TIAA uses the index FIRMU (Familiarity, Regard, Meaning, Uniqueness) to measure brand health and predict purchase intent.
  • Quote: “We call it 'FIRMU' ... familiarity, regard, meaning and uniqueness. ... we've done it as a brand index.” (12:47, Micky)
• Non-Linear Funnels:
  • Micky observes that customer journeys are messy, not linear, thus brand consistency across touchpoints is more critical than ever.
  • Quote: “Customer journeys are not linear ... at any point in the decision process. ... you have to make sure that you're top of mind.” (14:39, Micky)

5. Resource Allocation and Organizational Agility

• Budget as Lego Blocks:
  • Decisions about people, media spend, and tools are treated as “Lego blocks” arranged according to business priorities, not predefined allocations. This encourages nimble reallocation as needs evolve.
  • Quote: “...we have a system that we call the Lego blocks ... units of spend in these Lego blocks ... against the business objectives is how we construct the budget.” (17:04, Micky)

6. How CEOs & CMOs Can Best Work Together

• Co-Creation and Building Trust:
  • Micky’s practice of monthly “jam sessions” with her CEO fosters buy-in, educates the CEO on marketing realities, and creates space for the marketing team to execute.
  • Quote: “We pick a topic ... and we say at the beginning ... here’s what we’re doing on this...here are the KPIs ... and what we do is we create three areas ... where we want her input ... What that has done ... is create a space where she can feel involved ... and ... over time ... more space for us to just get on with things.” (26:15, Micky)
• On the Classic CEO Mistake:
  • Many CEOs mistakenly believe marketing can solve all problems, rather than focusing on what marketing can and should accomplish in a given context.
  • Quote: “The most common mistake is assuming it can do everything as opposed to having this really great dialogue ... of what do we need it to do for us today?” (23:02, Micky)

7. Marketers as Organizational Educators (“Teach-Ins”)

• Teaching as Core Function:
  • Marketing leaders must teach their colleagues and the broader C-suite what marketing can and cannot do—for the sake of alignment and effectiveness.
  • Quote: “The act of teaching does of course require a willing student ... but the teaching isn't a side gig ... It's about teaching through the work.” (44:18, Micky)
• Storytelling Beyond Customers:
  • Marketers must tell their own story—and help other functions tell theirs—to gain credibility, budget, and a strategic seat at the table.
  • Quote: “Marketers are terrible marketers of themselves, of marketing of their work. ... If you don’t tell an effective story of your work, why should CFO, CIO, whomever believe you?” (30:53, Micky)

8. The Big M vs Little M Marketing Debate

• Big M: Strategy, Value, and Customer Insight:
  • True marketing centers on deep audience understanding and overarching value creation (Big M); too often, leaders and teams get stuck in tactical “Little M” execution.
  • Quote: “Big M marketing ... is about the deep understanding of the audience ... what is the unique value that you are going to create ... drive adoption ... but we so often miss the big M marketing.” (34:36, Micky)

9. Future of Marketing in an AI World

• AI & The Return to First Principles:
  • As AI advances, technical skills may be automated, but creativity, storytelling, and customer empathy will become premium marketing skillsets.
  • Quote: “The value of the marketer though is going to be in the story that comes out of that data and the insights ... and it's going to become from the creativity and ingenuity ...” (38:58, Micky)

10. Career Advice: From CEO Back to CMO and Personal Leadership

• Navigating Ego and Titles:
  • Micky cautions against status chasing; instead, leaders should focus on finding joy, expressing their values, and creating value uniquely suited to themselves and the organization.
  • Quote: “We often think about status and title and scope ... the question is, does that broader scope, that bigger title, does it truly bring you joy in the day to day?” (47:47, Micky)
• Leadership Story and Shared Vision:
  • She developed and shared a “leadership story” with her CEO, peers, and direct reports, aligning legacy impact, values, and team culture to business transformation.
  • Quote: “We created a shared leadership story ... What was the shared impact that we wanted to create at TIAA ... connected with the transformation and the impact that we needed to make for the business.” (50:04, Micky)
• On Character vs. Title:
  • Micky echoes her CEO, “Job titles come and go...but I own my character.” (46:02, referencing Tashunda Brown Duckett)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “That experience of being a CEO really brought that rigor to my thinking.” (03:03, Micky)
• “Culture has to be embedded in everything from the language that you use. ... Language matters. The rituals that you have in an organization and the cadences you have in an organization.” (04:46, Micky)
• On Brand Measurement: “We can’t quite frankly pronounce this internally...it stands for familiarity, regard, meaning, and uniqueness.” (12:47, Micky)
• “Marketing at its best, does not do all things for all people all of the time, even if you have enormous budgets.” (23:02, Micky)
• On Building Trust: “I think...the power of co-creation [with the CEO]...has built a relationship, credibility, and frankly this space for the team to do what they’re really good at.” (27:40, Micky)
• On Teaching: “The teaching isn’t a side gig...it’s about teaching through the work, through the rituals and cadences and teaching through the language.” (44:22, Micky)
• “We created a shared leadership story...and that has formed what we call our leadership plan that we have broken down into a three year plan...that’s what we live and die by.” (50:04, Micky)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–03:30: Lessons moving from CMO to CEO and back; carrying brand focus into CEO role
• 03:30–06:30: Culture’s overlooked role in business strategy; “Learn and Adjust” ritual
• 07:16–11:46: Brand distinction, marketing’s unique contribution, and KPIs
• 12:47–14:54: FIRMU brand framework; adapting to the “collapse of the funnel”
• 16:39–19:44: Resource allocation via “Lego blocks”; agility and adjustment in action
• 23:02–24:57: What CEOs get wrong—overestimating the power of marketing
• 25:38–28:53: Power of co-creation with CEO; managing input, trust, and team visibility
• 30:53–37:14: Storytelling marketing’s value internally; Big M vs Little M marketing
• 38:56–40:38: The future of marketing in an AI world; rising importance of creativity and insight
• 47:09–50:51: Navigating role transitions (CEO/CxO/CMO); values, joy, and leadership alignment

Takeaways for Listeners

• Moving across CEO and CMO roles brings business outcome rigor and customer focus full circle—informing successful marketing leadership
• True transformation requires treating culture as a strategic lever, not just an HR concern
• Marketing creates value through unique contributions at the right time—relentless prioritization and measurement matter
• Leadership is about intentionality, shared vision, and mutual education across the C-suite
• The marketer of the future is above all a storyteller, connector, and creative strategist—especially as AI reshapes functional expertise
• Reflect on your personal joy, values, and impact—titles are rented, but legacy and character endure

This detailed summary aims to serve both as a reference for the episode's insights and a guide for leaders grappling with similar transitions, collaboration challenges, and the evolving role of marketing in modern enterprise.