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The CGD Podcast
A Surprising Indigenous View of REDD+ -- Mina Setra and Frances Seymour
00:24:34
Mina Setra, the deputy secretary general of the Indonesia’s Indigenous Peoples’ Alliance of the Archipelago (AMAN), recently visited CGD to speak at about Indonesia’s efforts to prepare to participate in that would offer payments...
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- [00:16]
A
Welcome to the Global Prosperity wonkcast. I'm Lawrence MacDonald. I have two guests with me today. Mina Settra is the Deputy Secretary General of the Indigenous Peoples alliance in Indonesia. And Francis Seymour is a senior fellow here at the center for Global Development. Welcome both of you to the show.
- [00:33]
B
Thank you. Thank you.
- [00:35]
A
We've just held an event here together with our partners, climate advisors, that provided people in Washington a really remarkable opportunity to hear about Indonesia's efforts to get ready for something called redd plus the UN program for reduced deforestation and forest degradation. Did I get it close, Francis? Close enough, Close enough. And Pak Hiro Presetio, the head of the National RED Agency in Indonesia, gave a very impressive presentation. There was then a panel discussion. For me, somebody who was In Indonesia maybe 30 years ago, just once, has been a great admirer of Indonesia for a long time, but only had a chance to learn about it from afar. It was a really interesting opportunity to hear how much work there is to getting ready for red. But before we go into that, Mina, you have a very unusual perspective on this, working with the Indigenous Peoples Alliance. How do you see the connection between redd, which would offer some incentives for forest protection, and the work of your alliance in Indonesia?
- [01:46]
B
Thank you very much. Well, actually, for us, before we, we go into other things, I just want to say that for indigenous peoples, forest is everything. Many indigenous communities think of forest as their mother, their blood, their livelihood. That is the source of everything, the life of the people. So when we talk about forests, it's not only about carbon, about red, that's not in our dictionary, you know, when we talk about forest. And for decade, for ages, indigenous peoples has been protecting the forest, even until now, although the challenge is different now. So red is actually not a new thing for indigenous peoples. When we talk about reducing emissions, that is a new term that coming from outside. But the matter of protecting the forest is actually been doing by indigenous peoples from a long time ago until now.
- [02:50]
A
You said something in the panel that really surprised me is that the legal recognition of indigenous peoples in Indonesia is really quite recent.
- [03:00]
B
Yeah, well, actually we have in our constitutions recognition of indigenous peoples rights, but we don't have the umbrella national law that really recognize indigenous people's rights and how to implement that. So in 2011 the parliament started talking about this draft of the law and it's still ongoing now in the parliament and hopefully this year they will come out with this law. It's really important law for indigenous peoples because we are hoping when we have this law, our rights Will be protected. Also rights on natural resources, including forests.
- [03:41]
A
There's some 200 million people in Indonesia. How many of them would identify as indigenous? What share of the population do you think is indigenous?
- [03:49]
B
About 70 million people. Yeah, from our organizations, ourselves, we have 15 million people, but we have many other indigenous communities who are not yet member of our organizations. So we have many, many indigenous peoples in Indonesia.
- [04:07]
A
Actually, I think even people who don't know very much about Indonesia. I think many of my listeners might be among that group. They know that there has been a problem in Indonesia in terms of concessions over the years. Forested lands, whether they're the traditional lands of indigenous people or state lands being granted to various corporations or individuals, Whether it be for logging or conversion to palm oil or other uses. Talk to me about that problem as it relates to indigenous people.
- [04:43]
B
Well, actually the problem from us, it's coming from the forestry law number 41, 1999, this forestry law saying that customary forest is state forest. So that is a big source of problem for indigenous peoples territory and customary forests.
- [05:03]
A
By customary forest you mean the forest that the indigenous people have traditionally owned, seen as their own. They protected them, they managed them, but they didn't necessarily have a piece of paper that said these are our forests.
- [05:15]
B
Absolutely, yeah. So that's the situation. That's the problem. Because we don't have any write an evidence about that, rights about that ownership of the customary forest about the territory. That's why then the state can release all these concessions to our land. So that is the problem for indigenous communities. We lose our lands. Million sectors of our territories turn into alpine plantation mining, pulp and paper companies. Many indigenous peoples even have to move from their territories to another territories and then have conflict with another community where they are going to. Also some of them have to move to the city without enough capacity to do work in the city. And it creates another problem, job loss. So it's create a lot of problems. Not only that we lost the forest, but it's have like economic problems, social problems. Because in the oil palm plantations areas, for example, in communities who forced to live inside the concession, they also have problems with water. They have problems with social problems like prostitutions, gambling. That's a lot of things like that within the plantation concession.
- [06:41]
A
You mentioned in the discussion that there's now a mapping exercise going on to identify these lands and peoples.
- [06:48]
B
Yeah, yeah. That's the thing with all these rat ideas. First thing, when people talk about rat, we were like, what is this thing and how are we going to deal with this? But for Us, you know, when RAT started, it creates controversy for indigenous peoples, also for civil society peoples and many others. Whether are we going to take this RAT issues as our own or what? But for us, that time for Amman, we see red as opportunity for us to be seen. You know, 10 years ago, no one talked about indigenous peoples or about their rights. We are trying hard to bring up issues on indigenous people's rights. Even in national level, it doesn't really work. We try with different way. But when the international community start talking about forest and about threat, then we have the opportunity to say we are exist. Come on, people. When you talk about forests, you cannot escape talking about us. There's one motto in the un, very famous one, nothing about us without us. So when we are talking about forests, you cannot escape talking about the people who've been living there, nurturing the forest from years, ages, even before Indonesia exists. So yeah, that's the.
- [08:27]
A
So you say there was controversy when the idea of REDD came up. What was the negative view? Why were people suspicious and worried about it?
- [08:36]
B
Well, people actually worried that it will create people connected with the carbon market. And people worried that it will be only using indigenous peoples using forests for another market system. People are afraid it might be like.
- [09:00]
A
Palm oil and timber, another reason to displace people from their lands. Is that right?
- [09:05]
B
Yeah, people afraid that the red will be seen only as a commodity rather than beyond saving the forest. So that is.
- [09:16]
A
And what's your view between the view that it's going to just commodify the forest and what you've said, that it has been a positive influence? I imagine it's not one or the other.
- [09:27]
B
Well, for us, we also against the market. We're not really supporting all the market ideas, but for us, any ideas to save the forest, we welcome it. Because that is the most matters for indigenous communities. It's the livelihood. So how can we escape discussing about this when other people talk about it? We cannot run away. When people talk about our rights, who are they talking about? The things that actually our rights. And they were talking about coming to our house and sitting in our sofa, cooking in our kitchen, sleeping in our bed without our consent. No, we cannot do that. This is our home. And people who wants to come, wants to do anything in our home, they have to have permission from us. So that's actually the ideas about all these things.
- [10:25]
A
You've explained it so clearly. Francis, I want to bring you in here as the Director General of the center for International Forestry Research, the position you had held before joining Us here at cgd, it's an Indonesian headquartered research organization. You were there a long time. You've seen this evolution over time. Can you shed some light on the questions I've been discussing with Mina about when you first arrived in Indonesia, when you first started living there, what was the attitude towards indigenous people and their connection with forests?
- [10:55]
C
Well, when I first arrived in Indonesia, it was more than 25 years ago with my first residents in Indonesia with the Ford Foundation. And at that time, as Mina has suggested, indigenous peoples were not only invisible, but to talk about indigenous peoples rights was really a taboo, certainly in the circles that I was traveling in, which were very much working with the Ministry of Forestry, which as Mina has suggested, was given the mandate by the Forestry law to control 70% of the country's land area, something on the order of 120 million hectares. Much of that was encumbered by indigenous peoples rights which were recognized in the constitution but not translated in any meaningful way to operational rights. And so the Ministry of Forestry presiding over giving at that time mostly logging concessions. Now the threat is much more from conversion to oil palm plantations or fast growing pulp and paper timber species without due regard to the people who were already owning and managing the forest. And so I think the one major transition of two that I would highlight that Mina has talked about is a real sea change in the recognition of the existence of indigenous peoples in forest lands and what that means for rights and forest management. I'd say as recently as 10 years ago, no one at the Ministry of Forestry would have entertained the idea of recognizing indigenous peoples rights and excising those areas from the forest estate. But that conversation started happening before I left C4 about three or four years ago about that recently.
- [12:37]
A
So it's quite recent.
- [12:39]
C
And then another key milestone was just over a year ago the Constitutional Court made a decision recognizing the indigenous peoples rights, the so called adat customary claims as taking precedence over the Ministry of Forestry's rights to the land. And this was a suit that Mina, I think is too modest to say an important role to play in bringing that. And I think now the challenge is actually giving life to that court decision by actually implementing its implications. But the main point is that between even 10 years ago and today, it's just complete night and day in terms of the ability to even talk about and prospectively do something about recognizing indigenous peoples rights to the forest land.
- [13:25]
A
We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, I want to ask you both about the implications of this change for indigenous peoples Themselves and for the forests. This is the Global Prosperity Wonkast from the center for Global Development. My guests today are Mina Setra of the Indigenous Peoples alliance of the Archipelago in Indonesia and Francis Seymour, a senior fellow here at the center for Global Development. We'll be back in a bit. Welcome back to the Global Prosperity Wonkast. I'm speaking with Mina Setra, indigenous peoples leader from Indonesia, and Frances Seymour, a senior fellow here at center for Global Development and the former director general of the center for International Forestry Research. We've been talking about the change in the recognition of indigenous peoples rights in Indonesia and the relationship, which is a complex and difficult and controversial one, with redd, reduced deforestation and forest degradation program that proposes to make payments to forest countries for protection of their forests. Mina, how important is it that to your efforts and the efforts of the Indigenous Peoples alliance that the rich countries come through on their promises to pay for red? We've discussed some of the ambivalence about commodifying the forest. There are plenty of people in the indigenous community who would say it's a bad thing. I think you would say, on balance is probably a good thing. But I think one of the risks, one of the things we're focused on here at the center is that the rich world committed to to pay something and has been very slow, with the exception, I think, the notable exception of Norway, to actually come through with money. If we're having this conversation five years from now and there hasn't been any additional money beyond what the Norwegians have put on the table, will that be good or bad for your efforts?
- [15:39]
B
Well, actually for us, we see this as the responsibility of everyone in this world to support each other, especially to support us. Indonesia is considered as one that also take part of saving the forest with our carbon. So it's also a responsibility from other country, rich countries, developed country, to support us, our effort. Well, many discussions, especially with the civil society groups, that sometimes it's not fair if the rich country support us, but they also did not do anything to reduce their own emissions in their own countries. That is the thing that's unfair. So we want also to see that happen to the rich country.
- [16:33]
A
So you'd like to see reduced emissions in the rich countries and also support for the efforts to reduce emissions from the construction of the forest?
- [16:40]
B
Yes, because if they don't reduce their own emissions, so all their support to us will be useless. It has to be together. So that's what help us, really help us. So we think that responsibility have to be Echoed to other other have to also come and support us our work in Indonesia.
- [17:05]
A
So Francis, do you comment about that? The risks and opportunities, the promise of funding from the Global north to assist countries in protecting their forests. It looks to me as a non expert that there's the chance of the rich countries coming through is not large and I imagine there'll be some anger and disappointment, but.
- [17:29]
C
Right. I mentioned earlier that there were sort of two big changes that have happened recently. The first one that I talked about is this big change in the ability to talk about and act on recognizing indigenous people's rights to forest land in Indonesia. The second big change is the sort of change in positioning of indigenous groups, certainly in the form of Amman in Indonesia in recognizing RED as having elements of opportunity and not just threat. In the session just previous to this, Mina had talked about the slogan at the time of the conference of the parties to the Climate convention in Bali, no rights, no red. And you had protests of indigenous groups and others lying down on the sidewalk to protest the launch of the World Bank's Forest Carbon Partnership Facility, for example, because as you said, carbon was seen as just the next valuable thing that outsiders are finding in the forest that they're going to push indigenous peoples aside to get at. So it was going to be a disempowering phenomenon. And I think that combined with what Mina just described, a fear that if it were financed on a market basis this would with offsets. This would just be a way for the industrialized countries to get out of doing their part to reduce emissions. And so it was both an active threat to rights as well as lacking environmental integrity. And so I think what the experience with the REDD program so far in Indonesia has shown is that those two fears have not come into play in that. First of all, the Norwegian funding is not based on offsets or a carbon market, but it's just a performance based finance instrument, which is what we need to see more of. But also that the way the program has been developed with consultation and inclusion of indigenous and other interests and the, for example, very proactive solicitation of indigenous rights claims maps into the National Mapping initiative that the RED Task force and now agency is presiding over has given confidence that this is an enterprise that can be on balance good for indigenous people's interests. And so that's a huge change from even just six years ago in the sort of international and national rhetoric about redd. So I think you're right if there is no further international support coming forward, the progress that's been Made up to now. I think there's a danger of it stalling out. We've talked about an election coming up in Indonesia.
- [20:02]
A
Just thinking about the election, you know.
- [20:04]
C
All of this progress has mostly been based on presidential decrees that the current president Cecilo Bambangirhoyono has put into place. And it's really important that the international community step up now and send a signal to any incoming administration later this year that this is something that the international community cares about and is willing to pay for as an important complement to the domestic political support that Mina's organization and others will be able to bring to bear.
- [20:33]
A
Meena, what do you think about that? Does the affirmation of interest in this from the outside going to be important in Indonesia during the transition? The election is in July. I guess the new president will take office in the fall.
- [20:45]
B
Yeah, I think so. To keep up the spirit, if we stop talking about this at the moment, it will go on. You will never find the momentum anymore. Now is the time to keep raising the issues. So the next president for upper election, they will keep this in mind that actually the international community have a concern about certain issues. This is the issues that they want us to keep continue, you know, so that I think this is the crucial moment for Indonesia and we need the support from everyone to let them know that you are there, we are here and we have same concern. We want the next government to continue doing good things to continue this work that we started for indigenous people. This is really important because as I've been mentioning in the even today rat giving us the opportunity to be seen like we were not there before we were like Indonesia doesn't have indigenous peoples before. The government also keep saying that we don't have indigenous peoples in Indonesia. But after we talk about the red, talk about forest people start talking about indigenous peoples. And then when we start showing our maps of indigenous territories, then suddenly one like we are there, we exist. So we have all these maps. We did participatory mapping for 10 years, more than 10 years. That is a very strong evidence that we are exist. So we keep continue doing this. We hope in 2022 we can map 40 million hectares of indigenous territories all over Indonesia so that we can give that as evidence that we are exist in Indonesia. Because that is really important. We have a lot of questions about where are you, where is the indigenous peoples, where is their forest, you know, where is their territory. So with this mapping we want to show them that here we are. And you know, when we overlay with all this map of concessions and Indonesian map. We'll see that. Okay, now we can deal. We can renegotiate of the map how to manage the and also how to manage Indonesia because we are rights holder. That's important for us.
- [23:31]
A
You're so eloquent. I don't think we can do better than that. I'm going to leave it right there so that your words will echo in the ears of our listeners. Francis, Mina, thank you both for joining me on the show.
- [23:43]
B
Thank you.
- [23:44]
A
This has been the Global Prosperity Wonkast from the center for Global Development. My guest today are Mina Cetra, the deputy Secretary General of the Indigenous Peoples alliance in Indonesia and Francis Seymour, senior fellow here at CGD and the former director of cifor, the international forestry research organization headquartered in Indonesia. You can find the Wonkast online on itunes and on stitcher. Just search for wonkcast or CGD and sign up to hear a new interview every week. Until next time, I'm Lawrence MacDonald. Thanks for listening.
- [24:15]
C
It.