Podcast Summary

The CGD Podcast: "A Surprising Indigenous View of REDD+"

Guests: Mina Setra (Deputy Secretary General, Indigenous Peoples Alliance of the Archipelago, Indonesia), Frances Seymour (Senior Fellow, Center for Global Development)
Host: Lawrence MacDonald (CGD)
Date: August 7, 2014

Episode Theme

This episode explores Indonesia’s evolving approach to REDD+ (Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and Forest Degradation), focusing on indigenous perspectives and rights. Mina Setra, a leader from Indonesia’s main indigenous peoples’ alliance, and Frances Seymour, an expert on international forestry, discuss both the threats and unexpected opportunities REDD+ has created for indigenous communities historically marginalized in Indonesia’s environmental policy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Indigenous Relationship with Forests ([01:45])

• Cultural and Existential Importance:
  Mina emphasizes that for indigenous peoples, forests are much more than carbon sinks or mere resources—they are everything:

  "Many indigenous communities think of forest as their mother, their blood, their livelihood. That is the source of everything, the life of the people." —Mina [01:45]

• Traditional Stewardship:
  Indigenous communities have protected, managed, and depended on forests “for ages,” long before international terminologies like REDD+ appeared.

2. Legal Recognition: Recent Progress, Long Road ([03:00])

• Absence of Implementing Law:
  Though indigenous rights are acknowledged in Indonesia’s constitution, there is no comprehensive national law specifying implementation; such legislation has been in draft since 2011.

  "We don't have the umbrella national law that really recognize indigenous people's rights and how to implement that." —Mina [03:00]

• Scale of Indigenous Population:
  Approximately 70 million Indonesians identify as indigenous, yet most lack legal recognition of their land and resource rights.

3. Land Concessions and Dispossession ([04:42]–[06:41])

• The Heart of the Problem:
  A 1999 forestry law classified customary (indigenous) forests as state forests, paving the way for mass land concessions to logging, palm oil, and mining—often without consent or compensation.

  "Because we don’t have any written evidence about that, rights about that ownership ... that’s why then the state can release all these concessions to our land. ... Million sectors of our territories turn into palm plantation, mining, pulp and paper companies." —Mina [05:15]

• Social Impacts:
  Displaced indigenous communities face job loss, social conflict, urban migration challenges, and numerous social ills (e.g., loss of water, prostitution, gambling) in or near concessions.

4. "Nothing About Us Without Us": REDD+ as Threat and Opportunity ([06:41]–[10:25])

• Early Controversy:
  REDD+ initially sparked suspicion among both indigenous and civil society groups—fearful it would lead to further commodification and displacement ("just another carbon market").

  "People afraid that red will be seen only as a commodity rather than beyond saving the forest." —Mina [09:05]

• Flipping the Narrative:
  The international focus on forests through REDD+ gave indigenous people unprecedented visibility:

  "10 years ago, no one talked about indigenous peoples or about their rights. ... When the international community start talking about forest, about REDD, then we have the opportunity to say we exist." —Mina [06:48]

  She references the UN motto:

  "Nothing about us, without us." —Mina [07:33]

• Open to Collaboration, But Insist on Consent:
  Indigenous organizations see REDD+ as an opportunity—if, and only if, their rights and voices are respected.

  "They were talking about coming to our house ... without our consent. No, we cannot do that. This is our home." —Mina [09:26]

5. Dramatic Shifts in National Policy & Attitudes ([10:25]–[13:25])

• A "Sea Change" in Recognition:
  Frances Seymour, reflecting on 25 years in Indonesia, describes a profound shift from near-complete invisibility and taboo to open engagement with indigenous rights—exemplified by:

  • Ministry of Forestry being forced to acknowledge overlapping indigenous claims
  • The 2012 Constitutional Court decision recognizing indigenous ("adat") land claims over Ministry of Forestry control

  "Between even 10 years ago and today, it’s just complete night and day in terms of the ability to even talk about and prospectively do something about recognizing indigenous peoples’ rights to the forest land." —Frances [13:17]

6. The Role of International Finance and Norway’s Example ([15:39]–[20:01])

• Responsibility of All Countries:
  Mina argues that protecting Indonesia's forests is a shared global responsibility, especially for wealthy nations benefiting from global carbon storage.

  "It's also a responsibility from other country, rich countries, developed country, to support us, our effort." —Mina [15:39]

• Double Standards Callout:
  Global North must not only fund REDD+ but also reduce its own emissions:

  "If they don’t reduce their own emissions, so all their support to us will be useless." —Mina [16:39]

• The Norway Model:
  Frances notes that Norwegian REDD funding (performance-based, not offsets-driven) demonstrates the possibility of aid that supports rights and real conservation, rather than simply creating a new external market.

  "[Norwegian funding] is not based on offsets or a carbon market, but it's just a performance based finance instrument, which is what we need to see more of." —Frances [18:13]

7. Mapping, Evidence, and the Power of Visibility ([20:45]–[23:30])

• Participatory Mapping as Evidence:
  Mina highlights over a decade of participatory mapping to document indigenous territories; aims for 40 million hectares mapped by 2022.

  "With this mapping we want to show them that here we are. ... When we overlay with all this map of concessions and Indonesian map, we'll see that. Okay, now we can deal." —Mina [22:57]

• Mapping as Bargaining Power:
  Mapping enables indigenous groups to negotiate, resist unwanted development, and demand inclusion.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Recognition through REDD+:

  "When the international community start talking about forest and about REDD, then we ... say we exist. Come on people, when you talk about forests, you cannot escape talking about us." —Mina [06:48]

• On Rights and Participation:

  "Nothing about us without us." —Mina [07:33]

• On International Responsibility:

  "If they don’t reduce their own emissions, so all their support to us will be useless. It has to be together." —Mina [16:39]

• On Change in Indonesia:

  "Between even 10 years ago and today, it's just complete night and day in terms of ... recognizing indigenous peoples' rights." —Frances [13:17]

• On Visibility and Evidence:

  "We did participatory mapping for 10 years, more than 10 years. That is a very strong evidence that we exist." —Mina [21:52]

• Host's Closing Praise:

  "You're so eloquent. I don't think we can do better than that. I'm going to leave it right there so that your words will echo in the ears of our listeners." —Lawrence [23:30]

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|-------------------| | 01:45 | Mina: Forests as everything; traditional protection | | 03:00 | Recent/constrained legal recognition for indigenous rights | | 04:42 | Loss of lands and social impacts from concessions | | 06:41 | REDD+: Opportunity for visibility; “Nothing about us without us” | | 08:36 | Fears of commodification and marketization | | 10:25 | Frances: Historic shift in policy/recognition | | 12:38 | Constitutional Court decision favoring indigenous rights | | 15:39 | Mina: Global responsibility for forest protection | | 17:29 | Frances: Indigenous organizations more open to REDD+ | | 20:45 | Mina: Mapping for evidence and power |

Conclusion

This episode offers a candid, nuanced look at the intersection of international climate finance and long-suppressed indigenous rights in Indonesia. REDD+, initially feared as a threat, unexpectedly became a stage for indigenous peoples to demand visibility, consent, and rights. Both guests make clear that external financial support must go hand in hand with emission reductions in the Global North, and that meaningful change hinges on both legal recognition and practical inclusion. Participatory mapping and direct advocacy are critical next steps to cement gains and prevent regression during political transitions.

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