CGD Podcast: Development Leadership with Siti Nugraha Mauludiah and Bård Vegar Solhjell

Date: June 27, 2024
Host: Center for Global Development (Michaela Gavas)
Guests: Siti Maulodiah (Director General of Information and Public Diplomacy, Indonesian MFA), Bård Vegar Solhjell (Director General, Norad, Norway)
Location: In-person, following the 7th Development Leaders Conference, Bali, Indonesia

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode dives into the changing landscape of development cooperation, analyzing perspectives from both traditional and emerging donors. The conversation, stemming from CGD’s Development Leaders Conference, covers pressing challenges in Official Development Assistance (ODA) reform, integrating global public goods like climate change, strengthening partnerships and trust, and reshaping narratives to bolster public support for development programs.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Shifts in Development Cooperation & the Conference Takeaways

• The Bali conference included more "emerging development providers" (i.e., countries that are both recipients and donors).
• The diversity of actors led to richer discussions, highlighting both differences and shared challenges.

Emerging Donors' Increasing Role

• Siti Nugraha Mauludiah:

  • “The broader participation of emerging development partners enrich[ed] the discussion. We heard so many perspectives. … The issues are also very pertinent to us.” [02:32]
  • Shift in ODA allocation (e.g. 30% for climate) was initially met with skepticism, but listening to reasoning at the conference clarified the necessity and adaptability of such reforms.
  • Emphasizes need for Global South participation in ODA reforms, especially ahead of the Asia-Africa Conference's 70th anniversary.

• Bård Vegar Solhjell:

  • Noted the evolution from recipients to donors as a natural development path for many countries ("France received a World Bank loan in 1947; so did Finland and Japan.”) [05:01]
  • Points out that, despite growing numbers, traditional donors still contribute the majority of funds if China and Gulf states are excluded.

2. The Changing Role and Allocation of ODA

• ODA resources are being stretched across an expanded range of issues, now including significant global challenges like climate mitigation, humanitarian crises, and conflict response.

ODA: From Poverty Alleviation to Global Challenges

• Bård Vegar Solhjell:

  • “[ODA] has almost doubled [in a generation]... but in real terms, it hasn't grown a lot. While what it is used for has grown and changed substantially.” [07:55]
  • “A pandemic or climate mitigation you can do anywhere in the world... While of course reducing poverty in a specific country... is mostly about solidarity.” [09:15]
  • Noted that, for the first time, European ODA to Ukraine and refugee costs exceeded that to Sub-Saharan Africa in 2023.

• Michaela Gavas:

  • Stressed the need for differentiated ODA strategies—basic services in fragile states vs. global issues requiring broader, often private, finance. [10:56]

3. South-South Cooperation: Priorities and Tensions

• Siti Nugraha Mauludiah:
  • South-South cooperation faces limited resources: “We cannot really do whatever needs to be done. But we have to prioritize.” [12:34]
  • Climate aid is both strategic and necessary, but faces skeptical domestic and external reception: “If we said, you know, labeling it in climate change, they would say, I need food. I don’t care whether it’s hot or rain. That’s a basic question actually.” [13:18]
  • Emphasizes the need to mainstream climate considerations into all aid activities, e.g., agricultural technical assistance leading to more climate-resilient outcomes.

4. Building Public Support and Narrative for Development Programs

• Telling effective, targeted stories is crucial for strengthening domestic and international support for aid spending.

Public Narrative Variations and Effectiveness Challenges

• Bård Vegar Solhjell:

  • “The discussion about support [is] largely about two different things. So one is, do we need it?... and the other is about results. Does it work? Is it effective?” [15:20]
  • Humanitarian aid remains broadly supported, while climate and broader development are more contested amid tighter fiscal conditions.
  • Stressed evidence-based communication: “Facta harmakta. It means fact should have the power… [but] we know much less what to do on adaptation and mitigation [for climate change].” [16:50]
  • Difficulty showing concrete results in complex or systemic change makes sustaining support harder.

• Siti Nugraha Mauludiah:

  • Indonesian public supports humanitarian aid due to past experiences (e.g., 2006 tsunami), but technical or infrastructure grants face skepticism: “Are you sure? We need to have that kind of facilities... We need to build something in the remote villages.” [19:21]
  • Emphasized need for tailored messaging depending on audience (public, parliament, stakeholders).

5. Partnerships: Local Ownership and Trust

• Partnerships must be locally-led and centered on national priorities.

Demand-Driven, Trust-Focused Relationships

• Bård Vegar Solhjell:

  • “Development has to be locally led and in a way demand driven. ...To get results that are lasting and sustainable, you need to have that dimension there.” [21:17]
  • Agencies must require partners to localize approaches and shift power dynamics.

• Siti Nugraha Mauludiah:

  • “It has to be locally owned and ... in line with the national interest. ...We don’t like to have traditional donor, our partner for development coming here and then say OK, we are going to do this... But do we really need that?” [22:57]
  • Past recipient experience shapes her approach as a donor: “We gradually trust them more that yes, you are helping us because we need assistance.”
  • Genuine partnerships require mutual respect, not a hierarchy: “No one, no hand is above and one hand is down.” [24:51]

• Bård Vegar Solhjell (on building trust in a fragmented world):

  • “The only thing worse [than endless talk] is that you don’t talk. ...Talking to people, having a dialogue, meeting people... is extremely important.” [25:14]
  • Warns of decreased North-South trust post-Ukraine, Gaza, and COVID-19. Advocates truly global attention beyond headline conflicts.

6. Personal and Institutional Takeaways

• Siti Nugraha Mauludiah:

  • Plans to advocate for regularized Emerging Development Partners’ meetings, but sees continuing value in joint sessions with traditional donors: “I was more convinced that we still need to have the conversation with the traditional donor. ...[so] we could have our own meeting separately. But then having this conversation in a broader audience...” [28:09]

• Bård Vegar Solhjell:

  • Values collaboration with CGD and Indonesia, sees urgent need to rethink ODA’s scale and structure:
    • “There’s simply a bigger difference between what’s available and the challenges now than in the former decades.” [29:34]
    • “We need to discuss whether this one box is the right tool for all these things or we need to divide more clearly between different goals and different streams of financing.” [31:33]

• Michaela Gavas:

  • “Everybody did agree that change is needed. There’s not so much of an agreement as to what that change is at this point, but this is just the beginning of a journey.” [31:51]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Siti Nugraha Mauludiah [02:32]:
  “The issues discussed from the first session until the fifth session, for instance, the ODA reform... Before listening to the conversation here, we see it rather skeptical... But then listening to the reason behind it yesterday, we understand more.”

• Bård Vegar Solhjell [07:55]:
  “We have a box and we have put a lot more into that box without growing the box a lot. I don’t have a solution, but I think we need to have a more structured conversation whether we should think differently about how we support these issues.”

• Siti Nugraha Mauludiah [13:18]:
  “If we said, you know, labeling it in climate change, they would say, I need food. I don’t care whether it’s hot or rain. That’s a basic question actually.”

• Bård Vegar Solhjell [15:20]:
  “The discussion about support... is largely about two different things. So one is, do we need it?... and the other is about results. Does it work?”

• Siti Nugraha Mauludiah [22:57]:
  “We don’t like to have traditional donor, our partner for development coming here and then say OK, we are going to do this... But do we really need that?... Our national priorities, development priorities, is this, this, this. So if you want to help us, this is that we have to work on.”

• Bård Vegar Solhjell [25:14]:
  “Some people say they’re tired of endless talk. But the only thing worse is that you don’t talk.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:32] Takeaways from the Development Leaders Conference
• [04:56] Traditional vs. Emerging Donors: Roles and Evolution
• [07:55] The Expansion of ODA into Global Challenges
• [12:15] Financing and Prioritization in South-South Cooperation
• [14:24] Communicating the Effectiveness of Development Programs
• [21:17] The Future of Partnerships: Local Ownership and Trust
• [25:00] Building Trust in a Fragmented Global Landscape
• [28:09] How the Conference Will Influence Guests’ Future Practice
• [31:51] Conference Reflections and Looking Forward

Conclusion

The conversation illuminates the complex ecosystem of modern development cooperation—how traditional and emerging donors must navigate shifting priorities, resource constraints, and a more multipolar aid environment. Across themes—ODA reform, climate integration, partnership dynamics, and the politics of public support—a foundational need emerges: deeper dialogue, mutual respect, and openness to restructure both narrative and finance. As both Bård and Siti agree, there is momentum for change, but defining what change looks like remains an open, collective challenge.