The CGD Podcast: "Doing Good is No Place for Emotion" with Will Macaskill Center for Global Development • August 4, 2015

Episode Overview

This episode explores the principles and impact of the effective altruism movement, focusing on rational, evidence-based approaches to doing good in global development. Host Rajesh Merchandani interviews Will Macaskill, co-founder of Giving What We Can and author of Doing Good Better. Together, they discuss the pitfalls of emotionally-driven charity, the need for rigorous evaluation of aid interventions, and how effective altruism is shifting the landscape of giving and development strategy worldwide.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Effective Altruism

• Effective altruism is about making the most positive impact possible with your resources—using "good evidence, careful reasoning" to ensure you "make the most difference we can." (B: 00:42)
• Distinction drawn between standard development practices and the more rigorous reflection called for by effective altruists.

2. Learning from Failure: The PlayPump Example

• The PlayPump (a merry-go-round that also pumped water) is cited as an example where "sexiness" won over practicality. Despite millions in support, it proved costly, inefficient, and ultimately unwanted by communities. (B: 01:13–02:42)
• Quote: "This was a great example of sexiness over practicability. It was a disaster from the start, really." (B: 01:44)

3. Evidence-first Success: The Deworming Case Study

• Contrasted with PlayPump, Michael Kremer's research used randomized trials to identify genuinely effective interventions.
• Providing textbooks showed no impact, but mass deworming with albendazole (costing ~50 cents per child) significantly improved school attendance and long-term economic outcomes. (B: 03:50–04:31)
• Quote: "...willingness to challenge your assumptions...be willing to experiment...what’s actually going to have the biggest impact, even if that's something as unsexy as deworming." (B: 04:34)

4. The Growth of the Effective Altruism Movement

• Organizations such as Giving What We Can and 80,000 Hours emerged to help people maximize the impact of their giving and career choices.
  • Giving What We Can: Members pledge ≥10% of their income.
  • 80,000 Hours: Guides individuals on impactful career decisions.
• The movement is expanding, with hundreds of organizations adopting the approach and millions of dollars pledged to evidence-based charities.
• Quote: "You can maybe increase the amount you donate by tenfold... you can increase how effective your donations are 100 fold." (B: 05:10)

5. Emotion vs. Rationality in Doing Good

• Emotional motivations to help are acknowledged as natural but must be guided by reason to ensure maximum impact.
• Dilemma: Personal losses motivate giving to certain causes (e.g., cancer), but effective altruists urge channeling that towards where the need is greatest—even if less personally salient.
• Quote: "It is a little bit more abstract than the way we normally approach charity, but I think it's just as human." (B: 07:58)
• The appeal of disaster relief is largely emotive, but ongoing, underfunded crises (malaria, TB) may present greater opportunities for impact.
• Quote: "We need to more rationally reflect in order to think, well, is this the best way I could be doing good?" (B: 10:26)

6. Donation Priorities: Immediate Relief vs. Systemic Change

• Macaskill advocates for donating to highly effective, measurable interventions, e.g.:
  • Against Malaria Foundation (bed nets)
  • Deworming charities
  • GiveDirectly (unconditional cash transfers)
• Acknowledges the importance of policy change for large-scale, long-term impact.
  • CGD is praised as a leading organization in this arena.
  • Quote: "Among organizations trying to affect policy change...I don't know of any organization better than CGD." (B: 11:49)

7. Effective Altruism & Existential Risks

• The movement is expanding its scope beyond global poverty to existential threats:
  • Artificial intelligence, pandemics, biosecurity, geoengineering
• Emphasizes the "three-factor framework":
  • Scale of the problem
  • Neglect (how overlooked it is)
  • Tractability (how solvable it is)
• These areas are often underfunded by governments, so philanthropy can have outsized impact.
• Quote: "If you think ideally the states would be funding this, but at the moment they're not. Well, maybe I can create a real societal shift there with comparatively small investments." (B: 16:08)

8. The Future of Aid and Development

• Direct cash transfers are likely to play a far larger role; interventions should be assessed against the baseline of simply giving cash.
• Emphasis on more research and randomized trials to determine what works; more spending to optimize health outcomes globally.
  • Health interventions often have broader applicability ("external validity") than educational or institutional reforms.
• Quote: "If you think your program is not going to do more good than just giving people cash, then what on earth are you doing?" (B: 17:53)
• Aid should focus more on global health, direct giving, and rigorous evaluation of interventions.

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On "sexy" ineffective interventions:
  "This was a great example of sexiness over practicability. It was a disaster from the start, really." (Macaskill, 01:44)
• On identifying effective interventions:
  "...be willing to experiment if that's possible, but willing to think of the different things I can do, what's actually going to have the biggest impact, even if that's something as unsexy as deworming." (Macaskill, 04:34)
• On maximizing donation impact:
  "You can maybe increase the amount you donate by tenfold... you can increase how effective your donations are 100 fold." (Macaskill, 05:10)
• On emotional vs. rational giving:
  "...care about preventing natural disasters...just today, 70 jumbo jets worth full of children died as a result of easily preventable diseases... that’s not covered in the media. But obviously it's just as big a catastrophe as natural disasters." (Macaskill, 10:42)
• On the role of policy:
  "I certainly think that there's enormous potential to do a huge amount of good through policy change." (Macaskill, 11:49)
• On cash transfers as a baseline:
  "If you think your program is not going to do more good than just giving people cash, then what on earth are you doing?" (Macaskill, 17:53)

Important Segments (Timestamps)

• [00:42] – What is effective altruism?
• [01:13–02:42] – PlayPump failure as cautionary tale
• [03:50–04:31] – Deworming as effective intervention
• [05:10] – Growth and impact of effective altruism movement
• [07:58–10:26] – Emotional motivations vs. rational impact in charity
• [11:36–11:49] – Policy change and the role of organizations like CGD
• [13:20–16:08] – Addressing existential risks (AI, pandemics) through effective altruism
• [17:53–18:38] – Future of aid: cash transfers, health, and rigorous evaluation

Final Thoughts

Will Macaskill advocates for a shift in the way we approach global development and philanthropy—moving from good intentions and emotional responses to a rigorous, evidence-based focus on outcomes. His vision for the future of aid is rooted in maximizing impact: more empirical research, higher standards for effectiveness, prioritizing global health, direct cash transfers, and rational consideration of neglected, high-stakes risks. The episode serves as both an introduction and a rallying cry for effective altruism’s growing movement.