The CGD Podcast: Interview with WTO Candidate Mari Pangestu

Date: February 14, 2013
Host: Lawrence MacDonald, Center for Global Development
Guest: Mari Pangestu, Minister of Tourism and Creative Economy of Indonesia and former Trade Minister

Overview

In this episode, host Lawrence MacDonald interviews Mari Pangestu, Indonesia’s Minister of Tourism and Creative Economy, former Trade Minister, and a candidate for Director General of the World Trade Organization (WTO). The conversation centers on Pangestu’s experience in international trade negotiations, her vision for the future of the WTO, how to address both unfinished and emerging trade issues, and the role of gender in trade diplomacy.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Motivation and Vision for the WTO (01:07–01:58)

• Pangestu’s Commitment: Asserts the vital link between open, fair, and inclusive trade and global development, especially for developing nations.

• Shift in Membership: Notes that developing countries now outnumber developed countries within the WTO, suggesting a needed recalibration in institutional focus.

• Indonesia’s Perspective: Emphasizes Indonesia’s capacity to bridge the gap between development and trade.

  “Keeping open trade in a fair and balanced way and inclusive way will hopefully be continuing to be a mandate for the WTO. ...trade and development is an important way of approaching the WTO in the future. ...we can bring to the table the way forward for trade and development.”
  — Mari Pangestu (01:12–01:57)

2. Structure and Dynamics of WTO Negotiations (02:26–04:58)

• Democratic Process: Describes the WTO’s ‘one member, one vote’ structure, mitigated by practical negotiation groupings in environments like the Green Room.

• Role as a Bridge-Builder: Pangestu outlines her experience representing the Group of 33 (a coalition of developing countries) at WTO negotiations, balancing the interests of diverse members.

• Contrast Between 2005 and 2008 Negotiations: Explains how earlier consensus-based negotiation worked better, while later attempts faltered due to lack of flexibility among major powers.

• Consensus and Representation: Stresses the importance of ongoing consensus-building and adaptability in WTO processes.

  “WTO is actually one of the most democratic international institutions... the concept of groups being represented in a room. ...You’re not just representing your own country, but also representing groups... to find convergence in the negotiations.”
  — Mari Pangestu (02:26–02:58)

  “We were basically fighting for the position of making sure that development issues in the agriculture negotiations were kept integral...”
  — Mari Pangestu (03:14–03:30)

  “In 2005, that really worked... in 2008, it didn’t really work for one reason or another, mainly because some of the major players... were not at the time able to make a deal.”
  — Mari Pangestu (04:01–04:17)

3. The Fate of the Doha Round (05:22–06:21)

• Doha Round Stalemate: Acknowledges skepticism about completing the Doha Development Round, which often receives lip service at global meetings.

• Practical Approach to Progress: Advocates for open-mindedness, potentially pursuing phased or partial agreements rather than insisting on all-or-nothing outcomes.

  “We have to keep an open mind about how we can revitalize the multilateral negotiation process and maybe not so much focus on... ‘okay, we have to complete Doha’...”
  — Mari Pangestu (05:22–05:35)

  “Can we do it in stages? ...most countries, and I do believe the business sector also feel that a complete and comprehensive multilateral negotiation is still the way to go.”
  — Mari Pangestu (05:54–06:12)

4. Addressing New and Existing Trade Issues (06:21–08:45)

• Emerging Agenda Items: Recognizes urgent new issues like energy, water, food security, and carbon tariffs, which blur lines between traditional trade and other policy domains.

• Prioritization Over Overload: Warns against overburdening the WTO with too many new issues; argues for focusing on practical gains such as trade facilitation.

• Focus Areas:

  • Trade Facilitation: Seen as an actionable area with proven benefits for both developing and developed countries.
  • Services: Highlights the broad societal advantages of improved trade in services, including in education and health.
  • Environment: Supports measured progress on environmental goods and services, hoping to avoid trade discrimination in the absence of global climate agreements.

  “We should avoid overburdening the WTO with too many new issues... prioritize... those which are already... beginning to be talked about on the WTO agenda.”
  — Mari Pangestu (07:15–07:30)

  “Getting a deal on trade facilitation... has shown that you can increase efficiency of trade and therefore increase trade flows tremendously for the benefit of poorer countries, developing countries, developed countries.”
  — Mari Pangestu (07:34–07:47)

5. Gender and Representation in WTO Leadership (08:45–09:34)

• Historic Context: Out of nine WTO Director General candidates, only one from a developed country; three are women, but no woman has ever held the post.

• Merit vs. Representation: Pangestu supports greater gender balance but stresses that capability and merit must remain primary in selection.

  “Women are somewhat underrepresented in the trade world. And definitely we hope that it can be increased... but it should not be at the cost of capability and merit. ...It should go to the best candidate, men or women.”
  — Mari Pangestu (09:09–09:29)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Building Consensus

  “That kind of experience as a trade minister domestically, I hope will also help me... be seen as... a DG that is able to service the interest of all its members.”
  — Mari Pangestu (04:37–04:58)

• On New WTO Priorities

  “There is some room for environment issues to start to be dealt with in the WTO... at least avoid discriminatory actions being taken in the name of carbon tax or carbon emission and so on.”
  — Mari Pangestu (08:19–08:37)

Important Timestamps

• 00:10: Introduction and context
• 01:07: Why Pangestu seeks the WTO Director General role
• 02:26: On the structure of WTO negotiations and her experience
• 05:22: Addressing the impasse on the Doha Round
• 06:21: Balancing old and new trade issues as WTO agenda evolves
• 08:45: Gender, merit, and leadership at the WTO

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid and respectful, with Pangestu offering pragmatic, nuanced insights grounded in her direct experiences as a negotiator and policymaker. The discussion is policy-heavy but open, with MacDonald gently steering the interview to illuminate Pangestu’s approach to the WTO’s biggest contemporary challenges.

Summary

This episode offers a clear-eyed examination of the state of the WTO and global trade negotiations through the lens of an experienced developing-country policymaker and WTO candidate. Mari Pangestu combines optimism for institutional reform with realistic strategies for incremental progress, drawing on her deep experience in consensus-building. She emphasizes the importance of balancing tradition with adaptation to new realities, and champions both inclusion and meritocracy in global economic leadership.