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The CGD Podcast
Interview with WTO candidate Mari Pangestu
00:11:14
The leadership selection process for the next Director General of the World Trade Organization (WTO) is underway. As I explained in a recent Wonkcast, we at CGD are making a modest contribution by inviting each of the nine candidates to be a guest on...
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- [00:10]
A
Welcome to the Global Prosperity wonkast. I'm Lawrence MacDonald. I have a very special guest today. Marie Pangestu is the Minister of Tourism and Creative Economy of Indonesia. But more importantly, she is the former Trade Minister and is one of nine candidates who have been nominated to be the next Director General of the World Trade Organization. Minister Pangestu, welcome to the show.
- [00:35]
B
Thank you, Lars.
- [00:37]
A
I want to explain to some of our listeners, since the center doesn't take positions, least of all take positions on supporting any particular candidate that we were asked to host. Dr. Pangestu, we were delighted to do so. She's a friend of the center and has come here and spoken before when she was Minister from Trade. And I've seized this opportunity to bring her views to you, my listeners. But we're not taking any formal position in support of your candidacy or anybody else's. Dr. Pegasu.
- [01:05]
B
Yes, understood.
- [01:08]
A
Why do you want to be the next Director General of the World Trade Organization?
- [01:12]
B
I think Indonesia and myself, we have felt that the multilateral trading system is a very key part of development. Keeping open trade in a fair and balanced way and inclusive way will hopefully be continuing to be a mandate for the wto. And I think development, trade and development is an important way of approaching the WTO in the future. And that's new because developing country members are actually now more than developed country members. And we do think Indonesia being a large emerging developing country, we can bring to the table the way forward for trade and development.
- [01:58]
A
I was very struck at the roundtable we had. You talked about your experiences as a negotiator in, if I remember correctly, 2005 in Hong Kong and then again in 2008 in Geneva. And two things. One is you weren't only representing Indonesia. I think maybe for our listeners who are not familiar, describe a little bit about the structure of that. But then also you contrasted the difference between 2005 and 2008 and the experience of being at the table. Could you talk a bit about that?
- [02:27]
B
Yes. WTO is actually one of the most democratic international institutions where it's basically one country or one member, one vote. But of course, you cannot have a meeting with 157 members. It would be very unwieldy. So the WTO works on the concept of groups being represented in a room. They call it the Green Room, I think, because originally the room was painted green, but there were about 26 or 30 people in the room which are not representing your own country, but also representing groups that come into the room and help to negotiate to find convergence in the negotiations. But we are representing a group. We represent the group of 33, which is actually 45 countries.
- [03:12]
A
And the group of 33 are those developing countries.
- [03:14]
B
Developing countries. It's all developing countries. And we were basically fighting for the position of making sure that development issues in the agriculture negotiations were kept integral in the negotiations. But I had to go out of the room every time, okay, we change position, I have to go out and check with my group and then come back in again. So that's how the negotiations are done in a way, in a democratic process. And in 2005, that really worked as well as the fact that you have so called friends of the chair, friends of the dg, sorry, that are helping the chairs of the different negotiating groups to also find convergence. Because at the end of the day, with 157 members, what you're looking for is consensus, consensus building between 157 members, which are at different levels of development and with different domestic issues. So you to find that convergence. So I think that experience, and then in 2008, it didn't really work for one reason or another, mainly because some of the major players, I guess, were not at the time able to make a deal. But in any case, I think that kind of format will have to continue to be part of the way we find convergence. So I think my experience in building bridges and finding consensus, both in that multilateral context as well as domestically, obviously we face similar issues where there will be a lot of different groups with different interests, and you've got to find the middle ground. That kind of experience as a trade minister domestically, I hope will also help me find. Be seen as, what do you call it, a DG that is able to service the interest of all its members.
- [04:59]
A
If you become Director General, you'll face a lot of difficult questions. One of them will be what to do about the Doha Round. There's supposed to have been the development round of trade liberalization. As you know better than anybody else, it's become almost ritualistic that every time there's an international meeting, the G20 will say, we pledge to complete the Doha Round. Almost nobody believes it's going to happen. What do you do about the Doha Round?
- [05:22]
B
Well, I think we have to keep an open mind about how we can revitalize the multilateral negotiation process and maybe not so much focus on, okay, we have to complete Doha because I think the multilateral process of negotiations can be achieved with Doha, with parts of Doha possibly as an open on, constructive way to move forward. But we must always start with, okay, let's try still to complete Doha. And if we can't complete it all by a certain date, can we do it in stages? Can we look at it more practically? Can we find ways to address it? But I think at the end of the day, most countries, and I do believe the business sector also feel that a complete and comprehensive multilateral negotiations is still the way to go. And that would still be a priority for any, for myself as well as hopefully for any new dg.
- [06:22]
A
There was a lot of talk at the roundtable and something that I thought you also seemed quite interested in were the whole set of new issues. People talked about energy, you mentioned trade in water, food security, carbon tariffs. There are a number of things that have a trade component and yet are also addressed in other international fora. If you become the director General, how will you go about trying to balance, on the one hand, there is this, this old uncompleted agenda of multilateral trade liberalization, and on the other hand, there are all these new issues crowding in that are in some cases quite urgent and have a very large trade component.
- [07:00]
B
That's a good question. I am of the view that there are many, many issues that remain unresolved because in their own fora they have also failed to be able to come to a conclusion. But I think we should avoid overburdening the WTO with too many new issues. We should just prioritize some of them, which are already, some of them already beginning to be talked about on the WTO agenda. And I would probably focus on the priorities that are just not just on liberalization but also on facilitation, for instance, because getting a deal on trade facilitation empirically and in practical terms has shown that you can increase trade efficiency of trade and therefore increase trade flows tremendously for the benefit of poorer countries, developing countries, developed countries. So I think facilitation, adding and completing the trade facilitation negotiations would be important. Services would be another important area because not only does it increase efficiency of delivery of manufacturing and agriculture goods, it can also have social benefits if you have improved education and health services, for instance. And I would say there's some room for environment issues to start begin to be dealt with in the wto. There is an environmental goods and services negotiations, and we've had talks on and off as to how we can have the environment issue in the absence of multilateral negotiations at the UNFCCC being completed, how we can at least avoid discriminatory actions being taken in the name of carbon tax or carbon emission and so on.
- [08:45]
A
There are, as I mentioned, nine nominees for the position. Only one is from a developed country, New Zealand. The other eight are all from developing countries. Interestingly, three of them, including you, Minister Pangestu, are women. But of course, all of the previous director generals of the WTO have been men. Do you think that gender should come into the trade negotiation process in any kind of way?
- [09:09]
B
Well, I think it's true that women are somewhat underrepresented in the trade world. And definitely we hope that it can be increased. The participation of women, I mean, but it should not be at the sake, at the cost of capability and merit. So I think for the candidacy of the wto, it should go to the best candidate, men or women.
- [09:34]
A
Well, let's hope that it does. It's really a delight. I know you have a very busy schedule today and I appreciate you taking the time to join me on the Global Prosperity Wonkast. This has been the Global Prosperity Wonkast from the center for Global Development. My guest today, Mari Pangestu. She is the Minister of Tourism and Creative Economy of Indonesia, the former Minister of Trade, and one of nine candidates to become the next Director General of the World Trade Organization. You can find the Wonkast online on itunes and on Stitcher. Just search for Wonkast or CGD and subscribe to hear a new interview every week. Until next time, I'm Lawrence MacDonald. Thanks for listening.