The CGD Podcast: Interview with WTO Candidate Roberto Azevedo
Date: March 26, 2013
Host: Lawrence MacDonald
Guest: Ambassador Roberto Azevedo (Permanent Representative of Brazil to the WTO, Director General candidate)
Overview of the Episode
This episode features a substantive conversation with Ambassador Roberto Azevedo, Brazil’s Permanent Representative to the WTO and a candidate for Director General. The discussion centers on the future of the WTO, the challenges facing global trade negotiations (especially the Doha Development Round), the structure of the WTO, dispute settlement, the role of large and small countries, and the intersection of climate policy and trade.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Ambassador Azevedo’s Qualifications for WTO Leadership
- Experience & Leadership Style
- Amb. Azevedo emphasizes his long-standing direct involvement in WTO negotiations and familiarity with both technical and political aspects of the organization.
- Quote:
"I believe I know the problems. I know what the situation is, the history of the negotiations, the sensitivities. And what we do need now is leadership that is familiar with the problems...and that can find innovative solutions."
—Azevedo [00:43]
The Three Pillars of the WTO
-
Implementation of Existing Agreements
- Ensuring members fulfill obligations undertaken in the Uruguay Round.
- Emphasis on notification and transparency through subsidiary bodies.
- Quote:
"One of the biggest functions is to make sure that the commitments that members undertook...are implemented. The WTO offers a forum for discussions, consultations..."
—Azevedo [02:10]
-
Dispute Settlement Mechanism
- Described as being robust and professional, with little evidence of undue pressure on panelists or appellate body members.
- Panelists often serve on a pro bono basis.
- Quote:
"I myself was a panelist three times and I chaired panels as well, and I did it on a pro bono basis...I never felt any kind of pressure from anyone..."
—Azevedo [04:16]
-
Evolution of the System (Negotiations)
- Focus on ongoing negotiations, specifically the challenged progress of the Doha Development Round.
- Argues that abandoning Doha is not an option; issues will linger if not resolved.
- Quote:
"If we want to move on with the organization, we have to find a solution for it. I don't think the burial of the round is going to help because...what next will always be haunted by the ghost of the Doha Round..."
—Azevedo [06:51]
Challenges and Prospects for the Doha Development Round
-
No “Perfect Conditions” for Negotiations
- Waiting for ideal economic or political circumstances is unproductive.
- Political will exists, so focus should be on confidence-building and confronting core issues directly.
- Quote:
"The world environment is never going to be perfect, so we have to work with it as it is."
—Azevedo [09:25]
-
Potential Paths Forward
- Identify a small number of actionable issues for progress at the Bali Ministerial (e.g., trade facilitation, agriculture, least developed countries concerns).
- Post-Bali, be bold about addressing the fundamental blockages in the negotiations.
- Quote:
"For a long time we have been avoiding the critical issues...I think it's time after Bali to look at them squarely and just go straight at the difficult points."
—Azevedo [10:47]
Dynamics Between Large and Small Countries
- Inclusiveness and Sensitivity
- Larger economies are aware of and attentive to the needs of smaller members, but the diversity of the nearly 160 members must be reconciled.
- Flexible negotiation approaches are required to ensure all countries—regardless of size or development—are fairly engaged.
- Quote:
"Each one will have to contribute, will have to take part according to their own possibilities...the spectrum varies from major powers all the way to very small, vulnerable economies...We have to figure something out..."
—Azevedo [13:30]
Is the WTO “Too Democratic”?
- Democracy vs. Efficiency
- Addresses a provocative critique that “one country, one vote” leads to gridlock.
- Argues that democracy enhances legitimacy, even if it makes negotiations slower and more complex.
- Quote:
"I don't really believe that too much democracy is ever bad for anything. The more democracy we have, the more legitimate the system..."
—Azevedo [16:37]
Trade and Climate Change: Border Adjustments and WTO Compatibility
- Climate Policy and Trade Rules
- Explains complexity of measures like border tax adjustments for carbon, which can be WTO-compatible if not used for protectionism.
- Critical challenge is distinguishing genuine environmental measures from veiled protectionist practices.
- Quote:
"Most of the times the problems we have is that very legitimate concerns...are used sometimes to protect segments of the industry, not to protect the environment...And that's where you run into trouble."
—Azevedo [19:38] - WTO decisions on such matters are necessarily case-by-case and highly complex.
- No precedent yet, partly due to complexity and risk of trade distortion.
Final Thoughts and Candidacy Reflections
- Multilateral Trade System’s Importance
- Reiterates the critical role of a functioning multilateral system—especially for small countries who are marginalized in bilateral/trilateral deals.
- Expresses honor at the opportunity to contribute to global development through the WTO.
- Quote:
"Development hinges on the multilateral system functioning, especially for the smallest economies...They need the multilateral trading system to work. And that is the system that will benefit everyone..."
—Azevedo [23:27]
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
- "What we do need now is leadership that is familiar with the problems of the organization...and can find innovative solutions." —Azevedo [00:43]
- "I never felt any kind of pressure from anyone and it was not a job...It was pretty straightforward and very professional." —Azevedo [04:16]
- "Burying [Doha] is not an option. It's going to be there...what next will always be haunted by the ghost of the Doha Round..." —Azevedo [06:51]
- "The world environment is never going to be perfect, so we have to work with it as it is." —Azevedo [09:25]
- "Too much democracy is ever bad for anything...more credible, more long lasting outcome." —Azevedo [16:37]
- "How do you then ensure that somebody is doing [border adjustments] because of climate concerns and not because they want to favor neighboring countries..." —Azevedo [21:48]
- "Development hinges on the multilateral system functioning, especially for the smallest economies...They need the multilateral trading system to work." —Azevedo [23:27]
Important Timestamps
- 00:43 — Azevedo on his qualifications and philosophy of leadership
- 02:10 — Three pillars of the WTO: Implementation, Dispute Settlement, and Negotiation
- 04:16 — Integrity and structure of WTO dispute resolution
- 06:51 — On the status and prospects for the Doha Development Round
- 09:25 — Approaching negotiations pragmatically, trust building for Doha
- 10:47 — Specifically actionable parts of the Bali agenda and need for bold solutions
- 13:30 — Representation and negotiation dynamics between large and small economies
- 16:37 — Addressing the criticism of "too much democracy" in the WTO
- 19:38 — WTO, climate policy, and the challenge of border tax adjustments
- 21:48 — Complexity and case-by-case approach to evaluating climate-related tariffs
- 23:27 — The importance of an inclusive multilateral system for development
Summary
This episode provides a deep dive into the current and future challenges facing the WTO, with Ambassador Roberto Azevedo offering his candid insights based on extensive experience with the organization. He highlights the necessity of pragmatic, inclusive leadership and stresses the importance of credibility and trust-building for the future of global trade. The issues discussed—ranging from negotiation gridlocks to the intersection of trade and climate policy—underscore the complexity and significance of the WTO's role in global development.