Podcast Summary

Podcast: The CGD Podcast
Episode: “Our Economy Depends on Maintaining the Forests” – Podcast with Brazil’s Amazon Champion
Date: October 19, 2015
Guest: Juliana Santiago, Head of the Amazon Fund Department, Brazil’s National Development Bank (BNDES)
Host: Rajesh Merchandani

Overview

In this episode, Rajesh Merchandani interviews Juliana Santiago from Brazil’s BNDES to uncover how Brazil managed to achieve a dramatic 80% reduction in Amazon deforestation within a decade—making it the world’s largest reducer of greenhouse gas emissions. The conversation delves into Brazil’s strategies, the economics of forest preservation, and the role of international performance-based funding, particularly Norway's billion-dollar pledge to the Amazon Fund. The podcast also explores why forest preservation is central to development, not just climate, and discusses the politics and future of payment-for-performance models in global conservation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Scale of Brazil’s Deforestation Crisis (01:11–02:00)

• Background: Deforestation in Brazil peaked in 2004, with the highest rates ever recorded.
• Key Measures: The government responded by integrating efforts across ministries and implementing a national strategy to tackle the problem.
  • “The National Institute of Space Research in Brazil has been monitoring the deforestation rates since the 80s. And in 2004 we have reached the highest deforestation rate ever.” – Juliana Santiago [01:26]

2. Main Drivers of Deforestation and Policy Responses (02:00–02:54)

• Drivers Identified: Land and territory use, illegal deforestation actions, and lack of viable economic alternatives.
• Policy Pillars:
  1. Land title regularization
  2. Illegal action control/enforcement
  3. Incentivizing sustainable production alternatives
• Quotable Insight:
  • “Giving alternatives to the people that live in the forest and from the forest, other than doing illegal actions, is also an important factor of combating deforestation.” – Juliana Santiago [02:02]
  • “Making them see that the trees are worth more alive than dead.” – Rajesh Merchandani [02:40]

3. Forests: Beyond a Climate Problem, A Development Issue (02:54–03:42)

• Link to Development: Forest preservation underpins Brazil’s economy by protecting watersheds, regulating rainfall, and supporting agricultural productivity.
• Perspective Shift: Rural landowners increasingly understand that deforestation threatens their businesses.
  • “Our economy was also dependent on the maintenance of the forest... even the rural owners understand that deforestation might be a threat to the business.” – Juliana Santiago [02:59]

4. The Role of Norway and Payment for Performance (03:42–06:25)

• How the Payment Model Works: The Amazon Fund rewards verified reductions in CO2 by converting them into a financial value ($5 per ton avoided).
• Scale of Achievement: Brazil’s efforts so far are valued at $16.2 billion in avoided emissions; Norway pledged $1 billion.
• Purpose of International Funding: Amplifies Brazil’s national efforts, underlines shared global responsibility, incentivizes continued results.
  • “Brazil was proposing... that based on its efforts and results achieved in reducing deforestation, the world would contribute... and also be engaged...” – Juliana Santiago [04:18]
  • “Norway has contributed $1 billion... the results already achieved with this cooperation...” – Juliana Santiago [06:25]

5. Ownership, Mindset, and Scaling Payment for Results (06:25–11:39)

• Country Ownership: Brazil controls use of funds but invests them in further anti-deforestation actions.
• Stop ‘Aidifying’ Payments: The model should treat funding as payment for services delivered (forest protection and climate stability), not as traditional aid.
  • “It's not aid... What I'm doing is that I'm recognizing efforts and end results achieved and I'm paying for that. So that's the mindset change.” – Juliana Santiago [09:44]
• Challenges in Scaling: While the REDD+ framework exists internationally, global financial commitment is lagging.
  • “The agreement is there... What we need now is financial engagement. Basically, where's the money?” – Juliana Santiago [11:39]

6. The Outlook for the Amazon and Global Climate Cooperation (11:59–12:42)

• Optimism and Collaboration: Juliana expresses hope, emphasizing that with international commitment and a shared sense of responsibility, further progress is possible.
  • “The results achieved are remarkable. And I think to the world it's possible if we have commitment and if we have incorporated the understanding that climate change is a global problem...” – Juliana Santiago [12:06]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Brazil cut the deforestation rate by 80% in one decade. It's now the largest reducer of greenhouse gas emissions.”
  – Rajesh Merchandani [00:24]
• “Making them see that the trees are worth more alive than dead.”
  – Rajesh Merchandani [02:40]
• “Our economy was also dependent on the maintenance of the forest.”
  – Juliana Santiago [02:59]
• “The amount of deforestation that Brazil has reduced at $5 a ton of carbon dioxide is worth $16.2 billion to the world.”
  – Rajesh Merchandani [06:11]
• “It's not aid... I'm recognizing efforts and end results achieved and I'm paying for that.”
  – Juliana Santiago [09:44]
• “What we need now is financial engagement. Basically, where's the money?”
  – Juliana Santiago [11:39]
• “The results achieved are remarkable... we can do a lot together to change and to keep the climate balance.”
  – Juliana Santiago [12:06]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:24] Brazil’s achievement in deforestation, context for the episode
• [01:26] Peak deforestation year and emerging strategy
• [02:02] Drivers of deforestation and three-pronged policy response
• [02:59] Forests as a development issue
• [04:18] The Amazon Fund and payment for performance explained
• [06:11] Brazil’s impact in global emissions terms
• [09:44] Rethinking aid: Payments for environmental services
• [11:39] Need for financial engagement beyond promises
• [12:06] Closing notes on optimism and global teamwork

Conclusion

This episode offers a deep dive into Brazil’s remarkable progress against Amazon deforestation, revealing the blend of firm domestic policies and innovative international financing that made it possible. Juliana Santiago’s candid, optimistic insights illuminate the importance of seeing forest conservation as a paid, shared global service—not mere charity—and the need for greater international financial commitment to scale results. The discussion is framed by a clear-eyed recognition of global interdependence and the necessity of treating climate challenges as a collective responsibility.

For more resources and the CGD’s latest report “Look to the Forests,” visit cgdev.org.