The CGD Podcast: Reducing Deforestation and the Promise of REDD

Guest: Frances Seymour, Senior Fellow, Center for Global Development
Host: Lawrence MacDonald
Date: July 2, 2013

Episode Overview

In this episode, Lawrence MacDonald welcomes Frances Seymour to the Center for Global Development (CGD) as a Senior Fellow. Their conversation explores the global challenge of deforestation, its links to climate change and development, and innovative policy approaches—especially the REDD (Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and Forest Degradation) mechanism. The discussion covers the shifting drivers of deforestation, the limitations of voluntary supply-chain reforms, the promise and perils of performance-based payments, and the crucial role of better forest monitoring.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Frances Seymour’s Background and CIFOR’s Role (01:02–02:39)

• CIFOR’s Mission: Frances describes her previous work as Director General of the Center for International Forestry Research (CIFOR), part of the CGIAR group responsible for the Green Revolution, noting their focus on the policy side of tropical forestry.

• Impact Area: CIFOR emphasizes research to ensure forests benefit poor communities, tackle illegal logging, and understand forests’ centrality to climate change.

  "A great focus of the research is to influence policy…making sure that forests deliver benefits to poor people who live in and around forests… understand the underlying causes of problems like illegal logging. And most recently, a large focus has been on the role of forests in the whole climate change challenge."
  — Frances Seymour [01:22]

The North’s Role in Southern Deforestation (03:41–04:35)

• Changing Drivers: The focus has shifted from international timber trade to commodities replacing forests—cattle, soybeans, palm oil, pulp, and paper—much of it for northern/global markets.

• Supply Chain Reform: Frances stresses the need for supply chains to be sensitive to the environmental impacts of global commodity production.

  "If we want to address deforestation, we have to find ways to reform supply chains so that markets are sensitive to the environmental impact at the source of production."
  — Frances Seymour [04:17]

Limits of Voluntary Approaches & The Role of Governance (04:37–05:45)

• Private Initiatives: Voluntary initiatives like certification and pledges by retail companies are helpful but insufficient.

• State Role: Only combined approaches marrying private sector momentum with robust government regulation (spatial planning, protection laws) will be sufficient.

  "It's generally recognized that there are limits to private voluntary initiatives… it's the government that has got to step in and ensure spatial planning processes that have integrity…"
  — Frances Seymour [05:17]

Making Forests More Valuable Standing Than Cleared (07:15–09:12)

• Value of Standing Forests: There’s a need to internalize the many ecosystem services forests provide.

• REDD/REDD+ Explained: The UNFCCC’s REDD mechanism aims to mobilize northern finance to offset the costs for forest-rich countries keeping forests intact, covering both opportunity and transaction costs (like clarifying land tenure).

  "One of the objectives of that mechanism is to try to mobilize finance from northern countries to pay down the costs…for preserving their forests. And that would include both opportunity costs, as you say, if you convert forests to other uses, you can sometimes make a lot of money. But also the… transaction costs…"
  — Frances Seymour [08:17]

Norway’s Groundbreaking Performance-Based Agreements (09:12–11:24)

• Massive Commitments: Norway’s development agency (Norad) has dedicated billions to REDD, with high-profile agreements rewarding reduced deforestation in Brazil and Indonesia.

• Pay-for-Performance: Payments are contingent on measurable results (not just policy changes)—a new twist on long-standing development aid models.

  "[Norway has] also entered into some very interesting bilateral agreements with forest countries… payment for performance scheme that the Norwegians have promised these funds in return for action and performance in reducing forest based emissions."
  — Frances Seymour [10:02]

The Problem of 'Aidification' and Building Demand for Forest Credits (11:24–13:25)

• Missed Expectations: Global carbon markets didn’t develop as hoped; thus, demand for REDD credits remains weak.

• Risks: If REDD relies solely on aid, it risks inheriting development aid’s failings, like process over results (“aidification”).

• CGD’s Role: CGD and partners are working to find ways to make the North more willing to pay for forest conservation and build demand for forest-based carbon credits.

  "One of the concerns is that as one of my colleagues put it, Red would suffer from aidification. In other words, if it were funded only through aid budgets, it would suffer from some of the pathologies that we know tend to creep into aid funded programs."
  — Frances Seymour [13:10]

The Innovation of FORMA: Forest Monitoring for Action (15:42–17:30)

• Purpose: FORMA, developed by CGD’s David Wheeler, uses satellites and sophisticated algorithms to produce near real-time deforestation maps (down to 0.5 km², updated every two weeks).

• Verification Tool: This transparency is critical for any robust REDD mechanism—it provides evidence of whether results (standing forests) are being achieved.

• Establishing Baselines: FORMA can be used to set “reference emission levels”—what deforestation rates would be without interventions, allowing for credible pay-for-performance mechanisms.

  "FORMA is a tool to make what's happening in the forest, particularly to forest cover, more transparent and more available to everyone. And clearly that kind of information is critical to any REDD mechanism…"
  — Frances Seymour [15:42]

Measuring Emissions: Not All Forests Are Equal (17:30–19:13)

• Carbon Variability: Not all forests store the same amount of carbon; for example, Indonesia’s peatlands are exceptionally carbon-rich and particularly hazardous if destroyed.

• Ongoing Emissions: Clearing peatlands can cause emissions to persist for years.

  "Once a peatland forest is drained, the exposed organic matter…starts an oxidation process…that carbon store just keeps on being released into the atmosphere for years and years and years until the peatland subsides…"
  — Frances Seymour [18:21]

Multifaceted Benefits of Forests: Biodiversity & Human Wellbeing (19:19–20:41)

• Biodiversity: Forests are not just carbon sinks but havens for countless species—“cute animals,” as the host jokes.

• Human Dimension: Forest loss erodes not just nature but also local cultures and livelihoods.

  "There's also a huge amount of human well being and human cultural diversity that depends on the forests…It's unbelievable, the diversity of uses of various forest products by the communities who've been living in them for hundreds of years."
  — Frances Seymour [20:10]

Sneak Peek: Seymour’s Upcoming Report (20:41–22:03)

• Report Structure: Science (importance to climate), Economics (costs, incentives, global policy tools), Politics (negotiating consensus).

• Political Nuances: Politics both at the international level (negotiations over climate, north-south relations) and domestic (vested interests vs. conservation advocates).

  "It's one of the areas where there's a potential for everybody to win...there are other latent constituencies for conservation...those domestic constituencies to preserve forests can also be mobilized."
  — Frances Seymour [22:03]

Vision: Micro-Sponsorships for Forests? (23:04–23:50)

• Innovative Ideas: Technology like FORMA could allow individuals to “sponsor” forest parcels—direct, small-scale pay-for-preservation.

• Building Constituencies: Any mechanism that strengthens local rights and revenue streams for communities could help.

  "Anything that can help create constituencies for strengthening the rights of that family or that community to the forest itself and to any revenue flows…let's look at. Give it a look."
  — Frances Seymour [23:50]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the motivation for forest research:
  "Few people realize that a very large proportion of global climate emissions are due to land use change, and in particular deforestation."
  — Frances Seymour [01:30]

• On the limits of voluntary supply chain efforts:
  "As long as there are bad actors who are willing to deforest highly valuable landscapes to make some money, that it's the government that has got to step in…"
  — Frances Seymour [05:07]

• On the value of standing forests:
  "There are multiple strategies that can be used to try to make a forest more valuable standing than being cut down."
  — Frances Seymour [07:16]

• On the uniqueness of peatland emissions:
  "I call it the gift that keeps on giving."
  — Frances Seymour [18:21]

• On forests' many benefits:
  "You can choose your reason for doing it, because there are so many reasons."
  — Frances Seymour [19:19]

• On the human side:
  "When the forest is lost, that cultural diversity is lost as well."
  — Frances Seymour [20:38]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction / Guest Profile: [00:13–01:18]
• CIFOR’s Mission and Focus: [01:18–02:39]
• Drivers of Deforestation, North’s Role: [03:41–04:35]
• Limits of Voluntary Approaches / Need for Governance: [04:35–05:45]
• Making Forests Valuable Standing (REDD explained): [07:15–09:12]
• Norway’s Pioneering Performance Payments: [09:12–11:24]
• Challenges of REDD Funding and 'Aidification': [11:24–13:25]
• Forest Monitoring for Action (FORMA): [15:42–17:30]
• Measuring Forest Carbon, Focus on Peatlands: [17:30–19:13]
• Biodiversity & Cultural Value: [19:19–20:41]
• Upcoming Report Sneak Preview: [20:41–22:03]
• Micro-sponsorship Innovation: [23:04–23:50]

Conclusion

Frances Seymour’s first appearance on the Wonkcast is a deep dive into the complex, urgent policy terrain of global deforestation and climate. The conversation blends grounded detail (how REDD, FORMA, and Norway’s innovations work) with broader reflections on the politics and potentials of making forest conservation, finally, pay for itself—for people, for carbon, and for biodiversity. The episode sets the stage for CGD’s growing engagement in this domain and teases Seymour’s comprehensive, forthcoming report.